Sometimes the simplest solution is the best solution | Fan Showdown S5E2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 พ.ย. 2022
- Inside a Nuclear Reactor - Periodic Videos
• Inside a Nuclear Reactor
Welcome back to another episode of the Fan Showdown, TH-cams favorite series where you try your hand at designing what you think is the best PC cooling fan. Today we learn that sometimes the simplest solution is sometimes the best solution.
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-"This one was based on nuclear reactors"
-"This one was based on air loss reduction and redirection"
-"This one was has a varying number of blades across different diameters"
-"This one...is a fan. It has 13 blades."
13 blades wins.
Kudos to you, Ron Swanson.
Sorta makes sense. The other 3 are imitating the function of different product designed to different end goals. Simple 13 is imitating the function of a cooling fan; with the correct end goal.
When you try to reinvent hot water. But sadly customers tend to easily fall for over engineered stuff. Make two fans at 15$ one good but simple and yellow , one bad but white/rgb ... Guess the one you will sell the most by a humongous margin. 🐒
it is blue light.
@@fabrb26 You basically just described Noctua vs everybody else. Lol.
But I think that's just because style is important when building a gaming PC for many or most builders.
In my case, I used corsairs magnetic bearing fans on my gaming PC, and then all Noctua on my server. Kinda for this reason, but also because the magnetic bearing fans weren't out yet.
@@webx135 dude just because noctua doesnt look like edward in the sunlight, its still super overpriced.
baffles me how people actually think they're not just paying for the name on those
I want to see how 3D printed A12x25 would perform. I think it would be a better benchmark.
He did this way back at the beginning, before the Fan Showdown became a thing. th-cam.com/video/vsqi6SP0NhE/w-d-xo.html
I think the idea is to design a diy fan that's better than the stock a12x25 since it's one of the best fans and also a little pricey. Or at least that's what I've got from all of this.
@@matthewnardin7304 Yes
and make it out of Resin, seeing as the A12X25s are made of sterrox, a liquid crystal polymer, making a copy out of resin would likely give the most similar results
@@matthewnardin7304 that's not the idea at all, since the price of A12X25 comes most from its hub and not the piece of plastic that makes the blades. Even if you figured out a better design, you'd still have to buy an A12X25 for the hub, otherwise you're gonna use a cheap hub and end up with a noisy fan, so why bother in the first place.
We MUST find the creator of the Simple 13 to improve his glorious design. It seems we need... THE SIMPLE 14!
Serious question, why do you think a hypothetical simple 14 would do better than a hypothetical simple 12? In any case, I'm very glad that the champion is now something without a gimmick.
I would buy a Simple 14!
We clearly need to test. The simple 9 11 15 and 17 against our 13.
Because even numbers have resonance issues.
That would not be any better. More material means less airflow and more blades means less effectiveness per blade. And on top of it, an even number of blades would make the noise absolutely horrendous.
@@anteshell Because of the 3-legged support structure of the motor mount being at roughly 120˚ apart, you probably just need to avoid straight blade designs that are a multiple of 3 (to avoid turbulence against the motor supports). As such, 9 and 15 blade versions would likely have turbulence issues.
EDIT: the mount actually has 4 legs, not 3, so we'd want to avoid designs with multiples of 4 blades (e.g., 8, 12, 16, 20, etc.) to avoid turbulence with the motor mount legs.
I love how little fanfare he gives to the Cheater being unseated after all this time. Just "Aaand this one is the best, alright moving on."
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In the end he's an engineer. He cares about facts, not emotions.
@@alphastratus6623 not a good engineer...
@@Skinnamarink. How do you get to this conclusion?
he seemed like he really need to go to the bathroom, that was a very quick in and out outro with no excitement for the cheater being beat
💩
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It comes down to optimizing displacement while minimizing slip, nothing else is important. A simple solution is always my first goal.
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Fan showdown is one of my favorite things on TH-cam. Keep up the awesome work!
Hi, I'm JJ, and thank you for presenting my design in your show. I'm so thrilled to see my design printed beautifully. I really enjoy your show!
JJ where can i get your blade design? I love it!
Simple 13 (blade) is indeed simple. And effective as the blade angle is probably forcing air more than the other fans. You can see the RPM is significantly slower while having a lot less overall mass meaning it is pushing a lot more air.
IMO the fans are still not optimal but they kind of look better than last time. The inside of the fan 92120 looks really smooth but the edges are rough. I guess its fine as long as they are all rough.
The acrylic screen was definitely the best decision to improve visibility of the smoke test. :)
I love that we have something in the champion position which can be modified easily and straightforwardly along all of its parameters. Let the parameter space search begin!
The Simple 13's blades are just radially aligned, so have the least amount of drag on the motor. That means higher RPM and more throughput, as less energy is wasted in rotational motion of the air on the exit side.
Related to the roughness of 92120, it would be nice to have a 3D-printed copy of the A12x25 to figure out flow loss due to roughness.
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I think that the sneaky part of the 'simple 13' is that the angle is steeper towards the core, meaning that it attempts to speed up all air to the same speed, something a lot of fan designs here actually don't do.
I think that uniform acceleration is a key part in getting a lot of air through the rads.
OMFG what did we just witness! Simple 13 snags 1st place 🥇 woop 🙌🏻
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Winner winner chicken dinner :D
Exodus 20:7
When you show the wind tunnel and the feet per minute can you include the name of the fan and little thumbnail pic right below the readout? My biggest problem is remembering which fan is which when you are talking about them if I don't have a pic to go with.
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Simple 13 reminds me of a well pump windmil or weathervane you see on farms.
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You should do the smoke test while attached to a radiator. The flow will look pretty different when the fan needs to build up pressure.
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On the callsign 92120, the pegs are a feature called "crush ribs" commonly used in injection mold designs to keep things tight and provide flexibility in tolerances. They are very useful in 3d printed designs and I'd love to see them more often.
Simple 13 did what many of us tried to do.
Fantastic job, dude!
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The radial blades of the Simple 13 have the least amount of drag, so put less rotational energy in the airflow, which means higher RPM, which means more throughout.
The Involute is at the other extreme, with blades shaped almost as concentric rings. That has the most around of drag, slowest RPM and least throughout.
All in all two super interesting designs.
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Glad to see you testing a simple fan with solid design principles. No meme, no ridiculous complexity, just good basic design.
It also looks very much like my Chao fan but with 10 less blades and way better progressive blade geometry.
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Finally! We've come a long way just to get back to the simple design!
I like how the showdown has evolved over time, particularly the smoke test. 👍
Can you get a resin printer? That would open up a lot of options for design
I hope he sees this
I thought he already had one.
In at least one of his videos he did a resin print of one of the fan submissions, so it seems as if he does have a resin printer, or at least he had one.
th-cam.com/video/WWiZ13T3mxk/w-d-xo.html
he does have one. he did a test for "quality" of print, aka "we want smoother blades." and then he sound tested the identical fan with smoother blades. no differences at all. in fact in one test, the smoother fan performed worse. but yes, resin printers can make more complex shapes than standard line printers. he HAS made a few with his dual filament printer, with the second filament being water soluble so it dissolves, and allows for that to be used as support structure for really crazy shapes
Resin printing is more expensive and especially wayyy more time consuming. Printing, washing and curing 4 fans would take way too long to keep making these videos consistently.
I notice you set up your smoke rig to arc the smoke down and hit on the top half of the fan, showing how it pulls in air from off-axis. This got me thinking, and I wonder if you could make some kind of laminar flow hood to shape and direct the smoke stream at the test rig--like a tall vertical ribbon or something. Maybe post some specs for the fog machine and test some user-submitted smoke flow hood designs?
interesting idea
@@MajorHardware I second this motion, and open up discussion to vote.
I also agree with this idea as well. I think a clear acrylic box to approximate a pc tower with the smoke machine located on the opposite side would show how well a fan evacuates hot air would do well.
Honestly you could get pretty laminar flow just packing the pvc pipe he uses full of drinking straws. It’s a trick used with water so I would think it would work here
@@mc63100 the fog is a suspended particulate though, so you might run into issues with stickiness or settling if you try to brute force it with dense baffles like that. Water is also incompressible where air is very compressible, so flow restrictions will behave very differently. conceptually it's going to be similar, but I don't think you'll be able to get away with putting that much stuff in the airstream without killing the fog.
A beautiful Windmill fan design took the cake, nicly done :) !!!!
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Your title kinda spoiled the results of the video LOL. Anyways, great video as always.
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LETS SEE THAT SIMPLE 13 SPIN AS FAST AS THE NOCTUA!!! Nearly 400rpm, I can only imagine how much extra CFM and FPM it'll gain.
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Probably the blade angle is a little too steep which increases drag and airflow, but reduces static pressure. Maybe it will perform even better with a slightly shallower blade angle to increase rpm and static pressure
very smooth print quality im pleasantly surprised
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I think that the most important thing is atually dba to airflow ratio, because you can always add some power to increase airflow but you cant decrease noise lvl.
Actually you can't increase power. Not in these tests.
But if you mean real life, sure.
This!
Or at least noise normalize the fans for CFM testing.
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That comment section skit was to funny LOL
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Could you add a clip at the end of the smoke test with all 4 playing in a grid from the side view. Think it would be an interesting visual comparison.
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I love this channel. I can't get enough of the FAN base...
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I love this crowdsourced aerodynamics testing, as an F1 enthusiast I'd lowkey love to see Adrian Newey send you a fan
Gotta be honest I'd be more thrilled by resin prints as they have always been cleaner prints in your videos but perhaps doing some sanding or something may be easier
He already did. No big improvement.
This hub should be called the Q hub forever bringing recognition to Q for a great design
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Have you ever thought about using a resin printer?
Since these fans are getting so advanced. The resin printer would give a smoother flow and print thinner/more detailed.
Amazing series by the way!! I have never bought or looked at a computer fan and I don’t build computers, but this fan show captivated me.
Interesting! Simple did so well.
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An interesting idea would be also take that spoke hub design, isolate it from the rest of the fan, and provide that model along with the hub dimensions so that people could use it in their designs and maybe save you some final prep time
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LONG LIVE THE FAN SHOWDOWN
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Submitting mine again, i think it would be good for radiator usage, Would love to see the Heptua featured!
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This genuinely made my day lmao, I’ve been eagerly waiting to finally see something beat the cheater
Nice! I like all these designs! The Simple13 sort of confirms my theory that less mass is better.
That's awesome, simple yet effective and beats everything. Looks like any old engine fan too lol
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I'm wondering if conical slicing or non-linear printing could really help with the print quality of the fans.
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Great video 👍
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OH MY GOD, THE CHEATER ACTUALLY FELL…
…TO THE SIMPLEST FAN EVER. SERIOUSLY. “MK” IS A GOD!!!
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The unevern surface of varying quality 3D prints is probably a pretty major factor in performance differences. It may hinder, or even help - like that time Mythbusters put golf ball dimples on an entire car and it actually helped the aerodynamics.
He had a video about smoothing surfaces. Shortly explained : it didn't affect results as much as it might seem visually.
airflow in fans is much too turbulent for things like that to have any significant effect tho
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Welcome back!!!!!
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Submitted a 2 times top voted fan for several weeks and never got printed.
He is probably behind on printing a lot of designs and the vids are produced a while before released I'd guess.
prolly got a lot of submissions
He just picks randomly
All 3 of you are correct... He does have a ton of fans to choose from, probably in the hundreds of not thousands, and he just chooses fans pretty randomly unless he sees a truly unique, fun, complex, or weird, fan that he feels he just HAS to try out... And as I know how many people seem to send him fans, I can say that with probably many seasons worth of fans to look through (just from ones submitted this season, nevermind the others) there IS going to be a bit of backlog in fan selection and testing...
Also, remember that each fan probably takes 6-8 hours to print as an average minimum, therefore barring problems, if he's only working during business hours, it'll take approximately a week to just print the fans, and test them before shooting the video, let alone go through the selection process...
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Are you simple .... that line just became a compliment
oh no no no no no... i have to binge this series now. I don't have time but I have to.
Would sanding the leading edges of the fan make a difference? A sharper bite into the air.
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Maybe you have heard this before, but using a mass flow sensor is really a better way to measure comparatively over the anemometer volume flow as the competition gets close. The is especially a factor on different days.
You could say, I'm a .... fan of this channel
hi, you should make a inverted version of the double j by flipping the outer cone (inlet side big/ outlet side slightly smaller) you'll get a beautiful smoke show
I know it would add more time to production, but not all people need a fan for a radiator. Could you maybe also do an unrestricted air volume test to show if a particular design is better suited for a case exhaust vs radiator ?
The Double J is extremely satisfying to watch tho
And so the Cheater was feld. Not by another titan of complexity, nor by a novel design but by simplicity. Simplicity and tried yet true design.
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@@Major_Hardware. do people actually fall for this?
I wish we will see SIMPLE 13 in real fan in the future that would be awesome!
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The hollow center means there's less mass for the motor to spin. Thats the key. There's less mass slowing it down while it's in the fan hub.
This guy submits the simple 13. Refuses to elaborate. Wins.
Been a while since I watched last - glad to see the show goes on! What software should I use to try and make one? (Free software would be good)
simple 13. probably approaching the ideal blade angle curve from tip to hub
That is your new favorite hub. What do you think about the type using the blades as springs to correct for tolerances? Where the hub is positioned outward.
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The blades are too long and thin for that. It may work with very short blades in the gap between hub and motor, for example 10mm. But since the blades work the most effective on the outer diameter, it is probably the best to keep the hub as close to the center as possible
@@Henning_S. see S2E13 as an example with the Skeleton.
@@herrkulor3771 ah ok, sure, i was thinking you don't want to connect the blades at the center at all, in that case you wouldn't get enough clamping pressure because the blades are too flexible.
Of course with the ring on the face of the motor it gets rigid enough.
Should try Resin printing for absolute smoothness in the fans
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Could you please do some custom fan blade comparisons on the Thermaltake swafan's?
I dunno why but its always the 1977 Miss Acapulco Bikini Contest Music that make the smoke tests great.
you can hear the gears turning, the computer booting and the keys tapping over at the house of the creator of "the cheater" I'll be surprised if he doesn't clap back fast and hard. lol
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I have a question. Do you have a way to measure the speed of the fan? I feel that the larger fans may not be spinning as fast because of the larger surface area. I am curious to see if this could be another reason why the larger fans didn't do as well. Might be an interesting data point.
You should compare wattage drawn to also show efficiency of the prop design
You know..id like to see static pressure ratings on these too, cuz some of them are gonna blow less air but have a much higher static pressure, allowing for different use cases.
An ambient pressure sensor on both sides of the fan so that we could have a pressure delta would be neat.
I'd love to see the simple 13 compared with the exact same model but with a thin ring around the outside for comparison (see ARCTIC P12/P14 for reference). In my mind intuitively that would help with static pressure, but who knows there may be some kind of Bernoulli’s Principle situation going on that the ring could positively or negatively affect.
You should sand and polish best performing fan. Cause every indention contributes to noise and air flow. Meaning, polished fan maybe can outperform stock fan
when did we move away from sanding 3d prints?
what do you use for your fan speed control?
I am trying to use 2 pc fans under my gas insert fireplace to move the air. I connected the fan to a usb cord and power brick, but, it doesnt move at top speed.
@Major Hardware
What's the name of the music track you used during the smoke test section of the video?
@inboxontelegrmmajorhardware
You scammers are VERY STUPID!
You absolutely did not make a big enough deal about the Simple 13 beating the Cheater. That shit has been the top dog for like 2 seasons! The Simple 13 came out of nowhere and wrecked it!!!! WITH WAY LESS BULK
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Suggestion: Is it possible to test like the all time best 5 fans in this new set up and retest them after sanding the blades smooth. This way we could see the difference in airflow and does the micro currents have some effect in blades this small???
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Awesome.
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How fast does the hub turn without any fan?
Any idea when you can start measuring SP?
I am curious if there's a sweet spot with regards to # of blades with the Simple 13 design. What if we compared it against 11 and 15 blade variations (±2 blades)? Would 11 blades (fewer blades, resulting in higher rpm, but lower surface area) perform any better than 15 (more blades, resulting in lower rpm, but more surface area)?
FYI: I discovered that he did tests on # of blades (th-cam.com/video/V_TCw1zDsY4/w-d-xo.html) so 11 vs 13 vs 15 may not be worth the time.
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I got a new one headed your way in a few days.
It's a game changer
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@@Major_Hardware. oh great another scam.
How many of you do I have to chew out till yall stop.
Its interesting the rpm difference between the designs on the same setup. Is more so because of the aerodynamic design or the weight of the fan?
Its all about drag, a heavier fan will take longer to spin, but the weight shouldn't influence the top speed.
The Simple 13 looks similar to what is in my Electric Ducted Fan jet.
Can you please show the fan results in SI units as well, I would really appreciate it.
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cm/s
Although the wind funneling ideas are great, the added weight always leave them at a disadvantage, that's why i think The Cheater held for so long, since the funnel was external.
Great showdown!
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As long as it is not out of balance, the weight itself is not a problem, but the greater surface area causes additional drag and it requires more material thickness which reduces the effective area for the air to flow through. So it is probably the best if the center hub is as thin as possible and if it has no rim on the outside.
So a lighter fan is probably better, but not because of the weight...
@@Henning_S. thanks for correcting me, always good to learn something new!
I still want to see an efficiency rating. Which one moves the most air with the least amount of power. Could measure the Amp draw of the motor.
I think a lot of the print issues can be resolved by slowing it down. I can see your lash on the blades. Meaning when the head travels 25mm and then abruptly stops and changes directions. Leaving a bit of a nub. If you add some glide time or whatever your software calls it so that it "glides" to the stop point instead of under power you'll have longer print times by nearly 30% but your quality will skyrocket.
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There was ENTIRELY TOO LITTLE FANFARE for the cheater finally being dethroned.
Have you tried performing the smoke test by blowing smoke away from the fan?
Maybe with some kind of enclosure if the fans don't pull enough smoke.
@inboxontelegrmmajorhardware get lost scammer
The king is dead, long live the king!
I've seen something very, very similar to the Simple 13 before. I think the creator may know about wearing "dolphins".
i think if you had less blades and more wing span will give you more speed so it cancels out the bad airflow
I always imagine it’s just you puffing fat clouds off a vape for the smoke tests lol
Hello, I'm curious- is the metallic filament more or less dense than normal, and is it enough of a difference to affect the weight to where the fans would spin at different RPM based on the material? Sorry if you already talked about this but it's just a thought I had
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Looking into the physics behind fan blade design, a thin, narrow, long, light blade that doesn't bend and has a slight twist rather than a dramatic twist does best as far as we can tell. However, there aren't many attempts on designing the most efficient/effective fan blades, excluding this one, that are out there. Surely there is a supercomputer with some advanced AI out there that could spend 15 mins on this and determine once and for all the ideal ratios for the best fan possible but no one with that kind of computing power seems to be interested at all.
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13 blades guy is frantically writing up another email.
Would the thinner mist machine improve performance at all?
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any reason you dont resin print?
Simple 13 got that score close to A12x25 with 400 less RPM keep that in mind.
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There's a sort of novel way to test actual cooling performance now that wasn't available a few months ago.
The Ryzen 7000 series is designed to hit 95C pretty much immediately under heavy loads and then adjust clocks/voltage to stay right there once that temp is reached.
Without modding the CPU (e.g. thinning/removing the IHS), I don't believe an air cooler exists that will prevent a 7950x from hitting 95C and staying there for the vast majority of the benchmark's runtime.
So, you can technically benchmark cooling with Cinebench. Just throw a big monolithic air cooler (like Le grand Macho RT) on a 7950x, run Cinebench, and check the score.
Le Grand Macho RT does require some (easy) modification to fit AM5, but it's the biggest and highest performance single-fan cooler I am personally aware of.
I haven't tested multiple fans, but I have tested undervolts and found I could get significantly better Cinebench scores with a negative voltage curve offset, because the CPU hit steady-state temperature at a much higher clock speed due to the lower voltage.
Honestly I would love to see someone benchmark CPU coolers this way, but benchmarking fans would work basically the same.
Sure, it requires a new high-end PC build, but is that really a downside?
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