Shades of the 1895 "Race to the North" when either the North British Railway or the Caledonian Railway would get the fastest train through to Aberdeen from London -- depending which one got past Dundee and onto the shared track first!
That’s so bizarre seeing my dad doing the official timing. It’s so much a part of my childhood, weird how I’ve missed it! I can say with fondness and a touch of eye rolling but jeez, you bunch of dorks!
@@formidable38 Basically it was working (after some issues) but Thatcher wouldn’t give the last bit of money needed (because the press campaign against the train) and so it got cancelled just before it was finished. Wasn’t BRs decision.
@@melanierhianna That’s not the full story. APT only made sense on the WCML. Without the necessary track and signalling upgrades to allow the APT to travel sufficiently fast to benefit from tilt, the business case for the train disappeared.
@@melanierhianna Agreed! It was pretty much a victim of its own success and Thatcher hated the railways. With a little more 'can do' from her it would have been sorted.
APT had the advantage over the Pendolino. The former was, IIRC, allowed to run at up to 140mph. While the latter was limited to a maximum of 125mph. So, only missing out by 21 seconds is really impressive. Hopefully Avanti will have another go.
If they'd get cab signaling they'd be able to do the 140 routinely on relatively straighter sections of track -- and probably also up the restricted bits by 10 or 20mph as well as you'd no longer be worrying about unsighted signals.
I've heard new Avanti WCML stock would actually be slower, 110 mph and non tilting. I'm starting to wonder if this is partially because of HS2. Less pressure to make WCML faster?
@@PeteS_1994i think its because the new stock is part o the iet family and have extremely fast acceleration speeds so the acceleration would offset the speed difference
Superb video! Given that the APT exceded speed limits throughout its record-breaking run, being 21 seconds tardy while adhering to same is impressive indeed, & reflects some impressive driving by Mr Barker...
Not quite correct ... the APT record run kept to a max line speed of 125mile/h and kept to it’s own line speed profile. The profile is subtly different to that of the current EPS profile that the Pendolino kept to and there’s a few other differences in the standards/rules between the APT and Pendolino... (I helped create it during WCRM! 👍)
Geoff; you and I have been chums for very many years and I think that *that* was the longest rail-related monologue that you have ever let me get away with. And that's despite you editing out the really bits out too. V jolly! Almost like we had planned to sit adjacent. Maybe we should co-ordinate diaries and do some sort of rail-related video again... ;)
I'd love to see you working together! Maybe put in a word at UKTV, Tim? I was following the journey with both of you on Twitter. I must say that I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't show the part of the line where you can actually see the west coast, Geoff! Tim's seen my (shoddy) photos, you're more than welcome to use (laugh at) them. : )
@@steve.b.23 I know it doesn't fit sequentially in the video, but where is the shot at 8:00 in? It's after Pete Waterman talked about going through the Lake DIstrict but does look similar to the Morecambe Bay view.
I would love you & Geoff to do a series for UKTV. Your last 2 railway ones were wonderful. I have seen 1 on the Underground being promoted on UKTV, so perhaps Geoff may be in it?;)
Geoff actually got me more into modern trains because I always loved train travel and steam trains but Geoff got me into modern stock and how it all works and the people who run it. Top work! PS. I'm now a trainspotter haha.
I work at Carstairs Junction with network rail, unfortunately the 50mph speed restriction has been in place for a while, so hopefully we can get that fixed in time for another record attempt 😀
Excellent video in your inimitable style, Geoff (I've picked up some tips, I think!). A great account of a great trip - I think there needs to be a rematch next year!
I remembered that when APT set the record on the line, it ignored the line speed limit and got up to 225km/h in several places, just like the Intercity 225 has done on ECML. Getting this close to the record without exceeding the line speed limit is fantastic.
Do trains still exceed the speed limit on the ECML? Because I remember vivdly when i was on the way to darlington from leeds, the Stretch from York to Northallerton according to my speedometer went to around 140mph for a short period of time, and it definitely felt faster than 125mph
Well, the Pendolino was designed by Fiat. That part of Fiat was of course bought by Alstom, however the rest of Fiat merged last year with PSA, the owners of Peugeot. So, you’re not far off.
Regretably, it's still much quicker and cheaper to drive from where I live in Wales to central London - and that includes the Congestion Charge and London's Mafia parking fee racket.
@@jamesknightvo Car travel is cheap, as people usually underestimate the cost of the car (which almost everyone does) and a lot of subsidies go into car travel which you pay with your taxes, of course. This includes build and maintaining roads, ecological impacts, measures against noise pollution, cleaning roads, additional police forces, fire brigades, rescue services, curing insured people, etc. However, is there not an option to park on the outskirts of London and travel the rest by train or tube to avoid huge fees in London?
Our southbound from crewe to London was broken down at Stafford as it came through, engineers had to wait to turn the power off so as not to slow down the attempt
@@robtyman4281 I think you interpreted that wrong; a different train broke down and had to wait for the for the record train to pass before they'd do something about it
Fantastic, close shave. Worked with people on railways decades ago - a great team, dedicated, professional, humerous. Had the privilege of visiting the deeds archive archive and looking at original line plans for much legal/wayleaves work.
What a great effort! But it must be said that it a bit mad that Britain developed a faster train nearly 4 decades ago, but in their wisdom at the time they gave up on it. How very British! Nearly 40 years later and the APT record still stands. I am sure that APT in the siding had a smug look on it's face whilst the Penolino shot past it was obviously aware of the 50mph speed restriction, and that that would keep the record safe.
Great for James!! Good to see young blood in the railways. I'm similar. Started in the railways just after uni, at 22 in Hospitality. Became a conductor at 24 and now nearly 3 years of conducting and 5 years of service . . . Aged 26 and looking down the barrel at 27. Great job, great industry 👍 best of luck to the guy :D
It's pretty clear that (except maybe for that TSR at Carstairs) the limits of the current infrastructure have been reached and the record won't be broken by more than a few seconds until HS2 is fully operational. It's not a question of APT v Pendo, it's a question of how the signals are spaced and what speed limits they allow.
Rob, if you look at the path timing on the last leg from Bridge St, juction into the station, you'll see it lost over a minute, that would have been the difference between making it win or lose the race,,j
Stunning video. Love it. I feel such grief about the APT. I remember the hope we had at the time for it. A cousin of mine was working on its signalling. Would have changed UK railways for ever.
Go on the APT, for a train that was experimental in most respects and pushed into service ahead of schedule before it was ready just shows you how fast a train it was!
I’m glad you showed the APT at Crewe. The motor car did used to be at Coventry electric railway museum before it closed down. I have seen it before it got transferred to Crewe to join the rest of it
The poor APT, I always hoped, as I passed it every day in its siding in the Glasgow Shields Road depot, that one day we'd see it operational - nice it's only taken a few more years to progress.
This is one of your most entertaining videos which I've seen so far -- special occasion, the interviews with the people on board, and the anticipation of hearing the outcome of the record attempt. Great fun to watch!
There are several reasons that the record wasn’t beaten, probably the main one is the now necessary adherence to speed restrictions due to to TPWS Over-Speed which is just about everywhere and the on-board logging systems ; this is clearly demonstrated by the slow speed into the platform at Glasgow where it was almost certain that the APT came in at a damn sight quicker rate. As there was no on-board logging then whereas now every action is recorded in relation to the actual position on the track, I would suspect that the the proverbial ‘blind eye’ by the BR management was made to where some of the speed restrictions then in force so as the record was achieved. If there had been a similar level playing field today, it just makes you wonder what could have been achieved by the Pendolino unit !
Exactly, it's not really a fair fight. With TPWS and a change in the culture on the railways in regards to rules and safety it won't be beaten until some significant upgrade work on the line to allow more 125 mph running.
Off by less than half a minute... that's DAMN impressive. I wasn't sure if it was possible, what with the WCML's geography and generally being a bit outdated compared with the ECML, but the fact that "Royal Scot" came _this_ close to beating the APT's record is still astounding! Now the next step is for Network Rail to allow another attempt. After all, if they let Tornado get up to 100 back in 2017 and she broke that barrier! Imagine what the Pendilino's could do with a bit of leeway
When this was being reported in the news, I genuinely can't believe I didn't think "Geoff Marshall will HAVE to be on that train and he'll produce one of his excellent videos to document it". Also, I've always wanted to say 'thank you' to Pete Waterman, who was very friendly, knowledgeable and chatty to my father when they met by chance at a preserved railway (I forget which one). It was one of those treasured moments my father recalled right up until his passing in 2013.
Very nice video, it's a shame that it missed out by 21 seconds but look like everyone had a great time onboard and nice to see some lovely clips of the train passing through some areas as well. Hope they try again next year after the Carstairs area being remodelled,
Great video Geoff, you have brilliantly captured the journey for all of those who couldn’t be onboard. Glad I could contribute with an external shot and thanks for the credit 👍🏻
First of all; well done to everyone involved, particularly the rail staff and commiserations on the twenty odd second deficit. Having said that, I'm kind of glad it played out this way. I have always been furious at the way British Rail management and the press treated the APT and how the project was simply cancelled on the spot and the two trains shunted in to museums. The British public were given the distinct impression British Railway engineers were hopeless and we were well rid of the APT. Twenty or thirty years later, we have to buy the same thing from the Italians! The scientific and technical understanding of 95% of the population - then and now - approaches zero. They don't understand the difference between doing the tilting thing, with digital electronics and computers, and doing it with analogue electronics. It is comparable to comparing the Mallard's record breaking run and the latest Hitachi train sets. The APT project was starved of people, resources and money, but above all; time. It was set up to fail, by introducing it on the day 'ordinary' electric trains arced to a standstill and was the worst weather in living memory. To abandon the project and more or less write off the British Railway Industry, was a dreadful, yet typical example of British management. In short, they couldn't organise a p1ssup in a Brewery - like the car industry. Where are those industries now? I shan't compare the APT with Concorde, it wasn't ever in that class, but it was similar in that Concorde was not only beautiful and very fast, it was technologically absolutely stunning. It was UNBELIEVABLY amazing. It had just four (one for each engine) digital electronic PCB's (printed circuit boards) in it - because the original chips could no longer be made and they were substitutes. Everything else was analogue. I doubt it could even be done nowadays? APT was all analogue and it is indicative of how it was viewed by BR management, by how quickly BR binned the project after the launch day. Basically the next day. Criminal and to the long term detriment of Railways in Britain. Rant off. Well done Geoff, another great one.
British Rail engineers *were* hopeless. This is why engineers from the aerospace industry were commissioned to design the APT. It was built with substandard parts by British Rail engineers deliberately. It was they who were responsible for it not performing as required, the subsequent bad press and the resulting lack of opposition to it being scrapped. This is why we ended up with the far more inferior Intercity 125, which was a creation of British Rail engineers.
@@streuthmonkey1 What was the motivation for their action, or lack of it? And were they the same aerospace engineers who created Concorde? British engineers have rarely been hopeless, only poorly led, poorly supported and poorly financed. The HST was amazingly successful and its gradual passing is lamented by all.
Well said and I totally agree . British rail Engineers developed the technology and I well recall the gutter press making fun of it just because of early teething issues .
What a shame! So close and yet... Thanks for the footage Geoff. Great to see young Tim on there as I greatly enjoy the enthusiasm he has for all things railway related that comes across in his programmes. 👍 Hopefully you'll get another invitation if they try another Royal Scot run in the future? 😜 Cheers for another highly enjoyable video 🍻🍀😀
@@alangaming2003 If you're going to try to correct people, stick to a subject you know something about. Even if you were correct, it still gets tired pretty quickly.
I have loved all the posts about this fantastic trip, culminating in your video! 21 seconds out is a fantastic achievement, but I didn't know it was the fastest Pendo to do that route! That could have been praised more I feel! Great video as always Geoff!
though it's record happened with breaking the speed limit on the WCML, it was allowed to go to 140, while the Pendolinos had to stick to 125 despite being able to hit the same speeds. They could have beaten it with updated signalling easy.
Good run. 21 seconds difference and no special speed exemptions is damn good. I wish we had trains and track like that in America. I hate planes and cars. I would much prefer to take a train everywhere.
God I can't wait until these speeds are no longer a struggle in this country and are the norm, if not the minimum. Well done Avanti and well done Geoff for a fantastic video as always.
The APT had a clear advantage 37 years ago - it could use all the 25kV for traction, whereas today's Pendolinos have to charge the passengers' mobiles and run the entertainment system. Still, it's a good thing that the record stands. It gives them a reason to try again, and raise more money for charity!
I watched with interest. On the Radio 4 news, the article noted that the APT was allowed to exceed speed limits, but the Pendilino did not and stayed within them. This is an impressive run.
A huge congratulations to the Avanti team for the speed run attempt but I can't help but feel a bit depressed that in 37 years we're going 21 seconds slower. Concorde, Sea Cats and now Pendolino.
@@thwalesproductions no it didnt, it was permitted to run at higher speeds as it had the appropriate signalling system, i see too many people ignorantly thinking that they would have gotten away with breaking speed limits, or that any speed limits were broken at all
Wonderful video, Geoff! Thanks for the suspenseful editing and the interesting interviews. And I had to laugh when my face mirrored yours at the 21sec reveal 😮🤭
I'm over the moon excited for Britain and its bright future for HST travel! Watching the Avanti Pendolino fly past those stations and the countryside is amazing! Many people might knock the UK for having "poor train service", but I'm beyond jealous of what you have caused what we have in Canada makes us look like a "3rd world country".
@@ContentedSoul Honestly not by much. I'd say the Windsor-Quebec City Corridor is akin to the Northeast Corridor in the US just unelectrified. Then the rest of the country is about as Amtrak. So not that good at all.
The APT-E was ground breaking, innovative. Some of the staff handed over the technology that works and left for others to come in and make prototype trains that would hold up to the daily hammering a train gets over the decades, It was badly managed, funded and pushed into service prematurely. The first tilting train to run a regular service in the world was the Canadian LRC!
Was on the inaugural run of the APT, with the family and my son was the youngest, 4, on board. Interviewed by the media and still have the tickets and the memorabilia given out at the time. Needless to say, have the Hornby APT in my collection and have ordered the latest version of the version.
I was watching Mark, The Man In Seat Sixty-one's video, on this epic run, and right near the end I hear a familiar voice, your's and I wondered when we'd see you video
It would be great to restore the APT and get her back on the main line for another record attempt! Jokes aside looks like it was still a great day and no doubt they'll be another attempt in the future with another Pendolino or their successors!
I do not know how full the tracks are in he UK, but if it is any resemblance to Germany, this is an remarkable planning and organization achievement not to have one red signal on the whole trip.
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Shoutout to the people who made the footage of the train passing through the stations.
Especially the one at the bridge for Wigan. I’ve been there and the path there is insanely muddy all the time
Watching from the USA, and the amount of shots along the way is just spectacular. Wow!
Exactly! Wish I could've made it!
@@gstakktransport5227 You've been to Wigan? I'm so sorry. :P
@@gstakktransport5227 Ikr that bridge is good for trainspotting. Good walk through all the trees etc too
I'd love it if Avanti collaborated with LNER for an east coast versus west coast race from London to Edinburgh, with split-screen and everything!
The LNER train will likely win. It’ll be a shorter distance over the same 200km/h speed limit
@@spdfatomicstructure the curves above Carlisle slow the WCML way down compared to ECML too 😃
That would be awesome
Shades of the 1895 "Race to the North" when either the North British Railway or the Caledonian Railway would get the fastest train through to Aberdeen from London -- depending which one got past Dundee and onto the shared track first!
Erm don’t you mean VTEC because LNER only existed once
Train: delays 21 seconds
Japanese passengers: That's very late
lol
@@SK_3PT1 xd
True
lol, even with 3s late, JR do a press conference to give official public excuses, and maybe fire the driver
Lol
That’s so bizarre seeing my dad doing the official timing. It’s so much a part of my childhood, weird how I’ve missed it! I can say with fondness and a touch of eye rolling but jeez, you bunch of dorks!
High Five for the funniest comment here!
I love Tim's reasoning for taking a model APT with him 🤣
Wasn’t needed in the end
lol
Same!
A little bit subversive "if the record is broken, in a way they will still hold the record"
@@RatelHBadger Might even call it "Trumpian"
The fact that Pendolino being a "tilting train" and a almost direct successor to APT is quite endearing
BR sold the tech for a song to the Italians who then ofcourse went on to develop the Pendolino. Quite ironic.
@@formidable38 Basically it was working (after some issues) but Thatcher wouldn’t give the last bit of money needed (because the press campaign against the train) and so it got cancelled just before it was finished. Wasn’t BRs decision.
@@melanierhianna That’s not the full story. APT only made sense on the WCML. Without the necessary track and signalling upgrades to allow the APT to travel sufficiently fast to benefit from tilt, the business case for the train disappeared.
@@melanierhianna Agreed! It was pretty much a victim of its own success and Thatcher hated the railways. With a little more 'can do' from her it would have been sorted.
I couldn't agree more!
"It's smooth. It's quiet - and an altogether delightful experience."
Don’t be Blue, Peter.
*tea having a seizure in the background
SNCF should invite Geoff the next time they do a TGV speed record run.
The TGV speed record is 357mph that's too fast that couldn't possibly be beaten
APT had the advantage over the Pendolino. The former was, IIRC, allowed to run at up to 140mph. While the latter was limited to a maximum of 125mph. So, only missing out by 21 seconds is really impressive. Hopefully Avanti will have another go.
If they'd get cab signaling they'd be able to do the 140 routinely on relatively straighter sections of track -- and probably also up the restricted bits by 10 or 20mph as well as you'd no longer be worrying about unsighted signals.
However the WCML has had improvement work since then so there should have been fewer points where the maximum speed slowed this one.
I've heard new Avanti WCML stock would actually be slower, 110 mph and non tilting. I'm starting to wonder if this is partially because of HS2. Less pressure to make WCML faster?
@@PeteS_1994i think its because the new stock is part o the iet family and have extremely fast acceleration speeds so the acceleration would offset the speed difference
Superb video! Given that the APT exceded speed limits throughout its record-breaking run, being 21 seconds tardy while adhering to same is impressive indeed, & reflects some impressive driving by Mr Barker...
He was a lovely chap, highly experienced and knew his stuff. Top driving!
@@geofftech2 bruh instant reply
21 seconds is such a big difference!
Not quite correct ... the APT record run kept to a max line speed of 125mile/h and kept to it’s own line speed profile. The profile is subtly different to that of the current EPS profile that the Pendolino kept to and there’s a few other differences in the standards/rules between the APT and Pendolino... (I helped create it during WCRM! 👍)
Geoff; you and I have been chums for very many years and I think that *that* was the longest rail-related monologue that you have ever let me get away with. And that's despite you editing out the really bits out too. V jolly! Almost like we had planned to sit adjacent. Maybe we should co-ordinate diaries and do some sort of rail-related video again... ;)
All the editing!! Ha ha. You were great, thank you sir … let’s indeed do a train thing soon. Yes yes 👍
I'd love to see you working together! Maybe put in a word at UKTV, Tim?
I was following the journey with both of you on Twitter. I must say that I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't show the part of the line where you can actually see the west coast, Geoff! Tim's seen my (shoddy) photos, you're more than welcome to use (laugh at) them.
: )
@@steve.b.23 I know it doesn't fit sequentially in the video, but where is the shot at 8:00 in? It's after Pete Waterman talked about going through the Lake DIstrict but does look similar to the Morecambe Bay view.
This so needs to happen!!!
I would love you & Geoff to do a series for UKTV. Your last 2 railway ones were wonderful. I have seen 1 on the Underground being promoted on UKTV, so perhaps Geoff may be in it?;)
Geoff actually got me more into modern trains because I always loved train travel and steam trains but Geoff got me into modern stock and how it all works and the people who run it. Top work!
PS. I'm now a trainspotter haha.
Nice
Just enjpy the train ride. It's so much fun.
I work at Carstairs Junction with network rail, unfortunately the 50mph speed restriction has been in place for a while, so hopefully we can get that fixed in time for another record attempt 😀
Yeah! Hope you're enjoying it at least :)
Excellent video in your inimitable style, Geoff (I've picked up some tips, I think!). A great account of a great trip - I think there needs to be a rematch next year!
thanks Mark, nice to finally meet you! 😎👍
@@geofftech2 It was great to hear you, and briefly see you, on Mark's video too. I enjoy the work you both do. Thank you
So good to see The man in Seat 61 in the vid. Been following your blogs even before your TH-cam vids were around.
Kinda Wow! two of my favourite vloggers on the one train!
You should have sat in the actual carriage seat 61
I kept waiting for the replacement bus to be announced.
I remembered that when APT set the record on the line, it ignored the line speed limit and got up to 225km/h in several places, just like the Intercity 225 has done on ECML. Getting this close to the record without exceeding the line speed limit is fantastic.
That was in the days before Elfin Saftee clobbered everything we do in this country!!
@@stepheneyles2198 Also in the days where rail disasters were far, far more common. So there is that.
@@stepheneyles2198 mans angry cause hes been nicked for going 49 in a 40 zone
Do trains still exceed the speed limit on the ECML? Because I remember vivdly when i was on the way to darlington from leeds, the Stretch from York to Northallerton according to my speedometer went to around 140mph for a short period of time, and it definitely felt faster than 125mph
@@jamrah8713
No, they don't. Overspeed is controlled and all trains now have data recorders which are monitored for compliance!
"Welcome on board this Peugeot pendolino to Glasgow Central!!"
I thought the same, not often you see the lion it's usually the St Andrew cross nowadays
Well, the Pendolino was designed by Fiat. That part of Fiat was of course bought by Alstom, however the rest of Fiat merged last year with PSA, the owners of Peugeot. So, you’re not far off.
So that's why they failed the record
@@southcalder I am sure he meant it as joke because of the lion at the front which made it look like a Peugeot lol.
Missing out by 21 seconds. That's heartbreaking
I know :(
@@lnertrainfan1785 I mean the positive is that it beat the old penileno time. And you ained a new sub.
Wow very big difference
if only they'd had fewer passengers
Japan:I WANT MY FU*KING MONEY BACK!
I’d travel more by rail if it was cheaper
Regretably, it's still much quicker and cheaper to drive from where I live in Wales to central London - and that includes the Congestion Charge and London's Mafia parking fee racket.
It is cheap if you book in advance.
@@jamesknightvo Lol where are you booking your tickets? Use a third party app!
@@jamesknightvo Car travel is cheap, as people usually underestimate the cost of the car (which almost everyone does) and a lot of subsidies go into car travel which you pay with your taxes, of course. This includes build and maintaining roads, ecological impacts, measures against noise pollution, cleaning roads, additional police forces, fire brigades, rescue services, curing insured people, etc. However, is there not an option to park on the outskirts of London and travel the rest by train or tube to avoid huge fees in London?
Our southbound from crewe to London was broken down at Stafford as it came through, engineers had to wait to turn the power off so as not to slow down the attempt
David Lindsay - classically British. We go for a record attempt and the train breaks down. wtf?!? 🤔😲😳😟🤨
@@robtyman4281 I think you interpreted that wrong; a different train broke down and had to wait for the for the record train to pass before they'd do something about it
Totally worth it though 😜
Fantastic, close shave. Worked with people on railways decades ago - a great team, dedicated, professional, humerous. Had the privilege of visiting the deeds archive archive and looking at original line plans for much legal/wayleaves work.
Tim Dunn seems such a nice guy, I'd love to listen to him talking about railways!
@@Jobother cool thanks 😊
He did a series on UKTV Play called The Architecture The Railways Built (Available online)
@@RandomRailways both series of that show are good! Lots of things covered!
What a great effort! But it must be said that it a bit mad that Britain developed a faster train nearly 4 decades ago, but in their wisdom at the time they gave up on it. How very British! Nearly 40 years later and the APT record still stands. I am sure that APT in the siding had a smug look on it's face whilst the Penolino shot past it was obviously aware of the 50mph speed restriction, and that that would keep the record safe.
Great for James!! Good to see young blood in the railways.
I'm similar. Started in the railways just after uni, at 22 in Hospitality.
Became a conductor at 24 and now nearly 3 years of conducting and 5 years of service . . . Aged 26 and looking down the barrel at 27.
Great job, great industry 👍 best of luck to the guy :D
It's pretty clear that (except maybe for that TSR at Carstairs) the limits of the current infrastructure have been reached and the record won't be broken by more than a few seconds until HS2 is fully operational. It's not a question of APT v Pendo, it's a question of how the signals are spaced and what speed limits they allow.
ETCS is scheduled to come before HS2
Rob, if you look at the path timing on the last leg from Bridge St, juction into the station, you'll see it lost over a minute, that would have been the difference between making it win or lose the race,,j
What a joy to watch. Slick edit and great fun, loved the natter from the guests!
I do love and miss the Pendolino. Brilliant train. The fact it has an appearance from Tim Dunn makes this amazing video epic too.
Stunning video. Love it. I feel such grief about the APT. I remember the hope we had at the time for it. A cousin of mine was working on its signalling. Would have changed UK railways for ever.
thank you Martin, glad you enjoyed!
Geoff, I must say, great interviews and amazing documentation of this special event, you've made a great video!
Go on the APT, for a train that was experimental in most respects and pushed into service ahead of schedule before it was ready just shows you how fast a train it was!
I’m glad you showed the APT at Crewe. The motor car did used to be at Coventry electric railway museum before it closed down. I have seen it before it got transferred to Crewe to join the rest of it
The poor APT, I always hoped, as I passed it every day in its siding in the Glasgow Shields Road depot, that one day we'd see it operational - nice it's only taken a few more years to progress.
400 miles in less than four hours! 🤯 Bravo to you all!
This is a video ive been waiting for. I hope they have another attempt
Interesting that the Train number on the matrix display still starts VT
This is one of your most entertaining videos which I've seen so far -- special occasion, the interviews with the people on board, and the anticipation of hearing the outcome of the record attempt. Great fun to watch!
There are several reasons that the record wasn’t beaten, probably the main one is the now necessary adherence to speed restrictions due to to TPWS Over-Speed which is just about everywhere and the on-board logging systems ; this is clearly demonstrated by the slow speed into the platform at Glasgow where it was almost certain that the APT came in at a damn sight quicker rate. As there was no on-board logging then whereas now every action is recorded in relation to the actual position on the track, I would suspect that the the proverbial ‘blind eye’ by the BR management was made to where some of the speed restrictions then in force so as the record was achieved. If there had been a similar level playing field today, it just makes you wonder what could have been achieved by the Pendolino unit !
Exactly, it's not really a fair fight. With TPWS and a change in the culture on the railways in regards to rules and safety it won't be beaten until some significant upgrade work on the line to allow more 125 mph running.
Spot on! I wouldn't be surprised if the only criteria in the 80s was "Don't SPAD, and pay attention to the speed limits on curves, those ones count!"
There was a 50mph TSR between Carlisle and Carstairs. That lost them 30 seconds by a friend's calculations..
@@dionysusnu3881 the apts attempt was also delayed by 5 mins due to a signal failure so thats nothing
@@Trainman10715 huh, really? I thought it only delayed the start time and they only started the journey a little later.
Off by less than half a minute... that's DAMN impressive. I wasn't sure if it was possible, what with the WCML's geography and generally being a bit outdated compared with the ECML, but the fact that "Royal Scot" came _this_ close to beating the APT's record is still astounding!
Now the next step is for Network Rail to allow another attempt. After all, if they let Tornado get up to 100 back in 2017 and she broke that barrier! Imagine what the Pendilino's could do with a bit of leeway
When this was being reported in the news, I genuinely can't believe I didn't think "Geoff Marshall will HAVE to be on that train and he'll produce one of his excellent videos to document it". Also, I've always wanted to say 'thank you' to Pete Waterman, who was very friendly, knowledgeable and chatty to my father when they met by chance at a preserved railway (I forget which one). It was one of those treasured moments my father recalled right up until his passing in 2013.
Very nice video, it's a shame that it missed out by 21 seconds but look like everyone had a great time onboard and nice to see some lovely clips of the train passing through some areas as well. Hope they try again next year after the Carstairs area being remodelled,
Thank you so much for including my clip Geoff! I’d have loved to have been there
Thank you for letting me use it! very kind 👍👍
I think we need to appreciate that that hero of a driver sat there and held his bladder for nearly 4 hours! What a guy!
Thank you, Geoff.
And also for 'All the stations'. In particular Corrour.
Brilliant to see people like Tim dunn on there!
Super video Geoff, great access to speak to all involved. Keep up the great work 👍🏼
unfortunate that now HS2 only goes up to Birmingham and it has nearly all been scrapped
Brilliant video Geoff, I filmed your train whizzing past just outside of rugby
Great video Geoff, you have brilliantly captured the journey for all of those who couldn’t be onboard. Glad I could contribute with an external shot and thanks for the credit 👍🏻
21 seconds thats impresive and the apt did a great job at keeping the record
First of all; well done to everyone involved, particularly the rail staff and commiserations on the twenty odd second deficit. Having said that, I'm kind of glad it played out this way. I have always been furious at the way British Rail management and the press treated the APT and how the project was simply cancelled on the spot and the two trains shunted in to museums. The British public were given the distinct impression British Railway engineers were hopeless and we were well rid of the APT. Twenty or thirty years later, we have to buy the same thing from the Italians!
The scientific and technical understanding of 95% of the population - then and now - approaches zero. They don't understand the difference between doing the tilting thing, with digital electronics and computers, and doing it with analogue electronics. It is comparable to comparing the Mallard's record breaking run and the latest Hitachi train sets.
The APT project was starved of people, resources and money, but above all; time. It was set up to fail, by introducing it on the day 'ordinary' electric trains arced to a standstill and was the worst weather in living memory. To abandon the project and more or less write off the British Railway Industry, was a dreadful, yet typical example of British management. In short, they couldn't organise a p1ssup in a Brewery - like the car industry. Where are those industries now?
I shan't compare the APT with Concorde, it wasn't ever in that class, but it was similar in that Concorde was not only beautiful and very fast, it was technologically absolutely stunning. It was UNBELIEVABLY amazing. It had just four (one for each engine) digital electronic PCB's (printed circuit boards) in it - because the original chips could no longer be made and they were substitutes. Everything else was analogue. I doubt it could even be done nowadays? APT was all analogue and it is indicative of how it was viewed by BR management, by how quickly BR binned the project after the launch day. Basically the next day. Criminal and to the long term detriment of Railways in Britain. Rant off.
Well done Geoff, another great one.
British Rail engineers *were* hopeless. This is why engineers from the aerospace industry were commissioned to design the APT. It was built with substandard parts by British Rail engineers deliberately. It was they who were responsible for it not performing as required, the subsequent bad press and the resulting lack of opposition to it being scrapped.
This is why we ended up with the far more inferior Intercity 125, which was a creation of British Rail engineers.
@@streuthmonkey1 What was the motivation for their action, or lack of it? And were they the same aerospace engineers who created Concorde? British engineers have rarely been hopeless, only poorly led, poorly supported and poorly financed. The HST was amazingly successful and its gradual passing is lamented by all.
Thanks. In a nutshell why BR needed to be privatised!
@@rogink ‘why it needed to be privatised.’ Well, we all know how that went down
Well said and I totally agree . British rail Engineers developed the technology and I well recall the gutter press making fun of it just because of early teething issues .
Live in Glasgow, it’s nice to see more being done to bring us together :)
I went to Manchester Piccadilly before inside the Avanti I was so excited and happy that I saw the newest trains
I do not live in Manchester Piccadilly
I've been looking forward to this video a lot.
😂😂 I was on twitter biting my nails and then i saw the 21 seconds tweet!
What a shame! So close and yet...
Thanks for the footage Geoff. Great to see young Tim on there as I greatly enjoy the enthusiasm he has for all things railway related that comes across in his programmes. 👍
Hopefully you'll get another invitation if they try another Royal Scot run in the future? 😜
Cheers for another highly enjoyable video 🍻🍀😀
Alert the LNER!! the race is back on!!
Wouldn’t it be awesome to see a new Race to the North?
I think you mean VTEC
@@alangaming2003 They do not. LNER is what it is now.
@@alangaming2003 If you're going to try to correct people, stick to a subject you know something about. Even if you were correct, it still gets tired pretty quickly.
The pendolinos got 21 seconds to go…
Did you see me in the video oh no
Unlucky Geoff. Maybe you can do it all again next year when the speed restrictions at Carstairs are lifted.
It sounded like the speed restrictions in Carstairs came as a surprise ... surely they should have know ??
Fantastic coverage - Thanks Geoff!
Well done Just shows how good those embryonic computers and APT train systems were if only they were allowed to be developed properly back in 1981!
I have loved all the posts about this fantastic trip, culminating in your video! 21 seconds out is a fantastic achievement, but I didn't know it was the fastest Pendo to do that route! That could have been praised more I feel! Great video as always Geoff!
The APT is amazing, it still holds up as an amazing train!
though it's record happened with breaking the speed limit on the WCML, it was allowed to go to 140, while the Pendolinos had to stick to 125 despite being able to hit the same speeds. They could have beaten it with updated signalling easy.
@@xander1052 Bit unfortunate but rules are rules lol
@@peterstransport337 yup
When the record does eventually fall, I'd LOVE to see APT come out for a rematch.
@@6yjjk That would be brilliant!
Good run. 21 seconds difference and no special speed exemptions is damn good. I wish we had trains and track like that in America. I hate planes and cars. I would much prefer to take a train everywhere.
Geoff's videos always get a like before I even start watching them because you know they're always going to be good, lol.
Fantastic video Geoff 🙂 Big thanks for everyone making it happen 😂 Pete Waterman what a cool guy he’s looking 👍🏻
Great video Geoff, very well edited and produced with great featuring guests and shots 👍🚄
God I can't wait until these speeds are no longer a struggle in this country and are the norm, if not the minimum. Well done Avanti and well done Geoff for a fantastic video as always.
Avanti GROUP, acquisided from FS GROUP,italian GROUP.
what if there were so many people on board it slowed the train down just enough to miss the record?
Unwanted passengers smacking the train so hard must have done the trick... Dead insects doing suicide by train are unwanted passengers...
The APT had a clear advantage 37 years ago - it could use all the 25kV for traction, whereas today's Pendolinos have to charge the passengers' mobiles and run the entertainment system. Still, it's a good thing that the record stands. It gives them a reason to try again, and raise more money for charity!
@@RallyBasher I doubt that made a jot of difference. The APT had older, more power-hungry hotel equipment and fluorescent lighting!
It was all Geoff's fault, he was the dead weight that cost them the 21 secs!
(Just kidding, You're awesome Geoff!)
Perhaps toilets that flush the pee and poo onto the track could have made up them seconds.
I watched with interest.
On the Radio 4 news, the article noted that the APT was allowed to exceed speed limits, but the Pendilino did not and stayed within them. This is an impressive run.
I love the passion for the rails everyone on board seems to have on board!
Thank you Geoff!
This run happened on my Birthday so was a bit disappointed I missed it, and the record wasn’t broke, but at least they tried their best!
A huge congratulations to the Avanti team for the speed run attempt but I can't help but feel a bit depressed that in 37 years we're going 21 seconds slower. Concorde, Sea Cats and now Pendolino.
The APT was allowed to bend the speed limits for a lot of its run - it was the 80s, after all
Yeah the APT had exemptions, otherwise it would be much slower.
APT ignored speed limits thats why
@@thwalesproductions no it didnt, it was permitted to run at higher speeds as it had the appropriate signalling system, i see too many people ignorantly thinking that they would have gotten away with breaking speed limits, or that any speed limits were broken at all
Tim Dunn's voice sounds like a blend of Geoff and Richard Hammond
Looks a bit like a combo of the two as well
Wonderful video, Geoff! Thanks for the suspenseful editing and the interesting interviews.
And I had to laugh when my face mirrored yours at the 21sec reveal 😮🤭
@Geoff Marshall - excellent fast-moving documentary: great story, great interviews, great edit. Thank you!
I thought the train might have been unvailed as "The Geoff Marshall" 😁
I'm over the moon excited for Britain and its bright future for HST travel! Watching the Avanti Pendolino fly past those stations and the countryside is amazing! Many people might knock the UK for having "poor train service", but I'm beyond jealous of what you have caused what we have in Canada makes us look like a "3rd world country".
Compared to your neighbour you are light-years ahead!😉
@@ContentedSoul Honestly not by much. I'd say the Windsor-Quebec City Corridor is akin to the Northeast Corridor in the US just unelectrified. Then the rest of the country is about as Amtrak. So not that good at all.
The APT-E was ground breaking, innovative. Some of the staff handed over the technology that works and left for others to come in and make prototype trains that would hold up to the daily hammering a train gets over the decades, It was badly managed, funded and pushed into service prematurely.
The first tilting train to run a regular service in the world was the Canadian LRC!
I love a heroic 'failure' Of course it is a great success. Wonderful work by everyone involved.
That moment when they announce the train miss by 21 seconds
Driver was so humble and blasé about it all!
Was on the inaugural run of the APT, with the family and my son was the youngest, 4, on board. Interviewed by the media and still have the tickets and the memorabilia given out at the time. Needless to say, have the Hornby APT in my collection and have ordered the latest version of the version.
21 seconds! Really! Great video. Thank you Geoff.
Loved your presentation.... The atmosphere and energy... 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
"Never known a train to go through Crewe. Never known a train to zoom by Preston".
I was watching Mark, The Man In Seat Sixty-one's video, on this epic run, and right near the end I hear a familiar voice, your's and I wondered when we'd see you video
Me too!
It would be great to restore the APT and get her back on the main line for another record attempt! Jokes aside looks like it was still a great day and no doubt they'll be another attempt in the future with another Pendolino or their successors!
My last time on a pendolino was in Jan 2020- went to Coventry to the transport museum- can’t wait to ride these trains again
Been looking forward to watching this!
Neneh Cherry and Youssou N'dour song springs to mind.
Nice of Geoff to run ahead of the train to get the station shots
Avanti Drivers are always entertaining us trainspotters with their nice tones
I do not know how full the tracks are in he UK, but if it is any resemblance to Germany, this is an remarkable planning and organization achievement not to have one red signal on the whole trip.
likely it was organised and the WCML was freed up for the speed record
@@choppership465
Indeed, the run needed meticulous planning, albeit made a little easier with fewer trains during the pandemic emergency.
RTT said it was between 1+2 minutes behind most of the way. Shame they only missed out by 21 seconds, but kinda glad the APT keeps the record.
The APT seen laughing as Pendalino passes....."you got no chance son".😂
10:56 might be the most dramatic reaction shot from Geoff... ever.
HS2 - London to Glasgow in three hours. Great - but what if you want to go from Liverpool to Hull or Lancaster to Newcastle?
Thanks for the video, Geoff. 👍
The class 390 is a good train. I worked at the plant in Birmingham while they were being built. Flying machines.
I might have guessed you'd be on board.
Hope it was fun.
the offical time keeper is using windows 7 lol