Let's Unpack The "Alt Girl"
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ค. 2024
- ✨I’ve never watched more TikTok in my life for this✨
Join me as I delve into the history, rise, and peculiar evolution of the “alt girl” - what she stands for, her TikTok-ification, and the (both empowering and unfortunate) implications of being “alternative”.
-
🕦TIMESTAMPS:🕝
0:00 - Intro
1:30 - The “alt” subculture: a quick history
5:39 - The American “Goth Panic”
8:04 - From alt to mainstream: rise of the internet’s “alt girl”
10:24 - The “alt trad” oxymoron / why do some alts romanticize traditionalism?
14:02 - The role of memes and music stars
16:23 - Alternative gatekeeping: are alt trends even “alt” anymore?
26:08 - “Not Like The Other Girls”
34:59 - The limitations of “alternative” fashion
-
🖤 FOLLOW ME ON IG: / anaisabelcosplays 🖤
-
All third-party clips and images are Fair Use/Fair Dealing under copyright law (transformative under criticism/review/commentary/news reporting).
Australian copyright law on “Fair Dealing”: www.copyright.org.au/acc_prod...
US copyright law on "Fair Use":
www.copyright.gov/fair-use/mo...
-
📚Main Sources Used:📚
“Alternative Fashion” - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alterna...
What Did the Gothic Counterculture Have to Do With the Columbine High School Shootings? - StepByStep
www.stepbystep.com/What-Did-t...
"EVERYBODY IS THEIR ENEMY": GOTHS, SPOOKY KIDS, AND THE AMERICAN SCHOOL SHOOTING PANIC - Allen Berres
scholarworks.iu.edu/journals/...
How Catholicism became alt-fashion's saviour - Biz Sherbert, i-D Vice
i-d.vice.com/en/article/g5b4d...
Gothic Crosses: Their Origin, Significance, and Religious Underlying - Skeptic Mag
skepticmag.com/2022/01/14/got...
“Im Not Like Other Girls” - Lauren Luna, The Bottom Line (UCSB)
thebottomline.as.ucsb.edu/201...
Beer Girls, Sad Indie Alt Girls, and Why Women Can Never Win - Anna Hochman, 34st
www.34st.com/article/2022/04/...
Am I Too Brown To Be Emo? How Alternative Beauty Favours Whiteness - Yasmine Summan, Refinery29
www.refinery29.com/en-gb/alte...
tiktok is kind of bad for fashion - Mina Le
• tiktok is kind of bad ...
Why No One Wins the Fast Fashion Debate - Broey Deschanel
• Why No One Wins the Fa...
The Horrible Aftermath of the SHEIN-pocalypse - Salem Tovar
• The Horrible Aftermath...
#altgirl #tiktok #alttiktok #altfashion - บันเทิง
As an elder goth. The best part of alt fashion becoming popular is that I can now wear my clothes to the office.
👏🏾
Thanks for walking so we could run dude :)
Right !
Nice!
Not sure what job has a dress code strict enough that you couldn't wear what you wanted...
But allows you to wear goth clothing? If you can wear goth clothes to work then there wasn't a dress code to begin with, so there was nothing preventing you from doing that previously.
Just respect your job and dress in a way that shows the pride in your work. If you're so miserable that you need to dress wacky to feel good then get a different job.
On the "I was bullied for it but now it's popular" thing. I was one of those kids. I liked anime, lolita, goth, and all that stuff as a kid and was bullied mercilessly for it, but I love that the younger generation is embracing it. The fact that these things are now popular doesn't bother me, in fact I'm glad for it. The problem I have is that some of the people my own age (late 20s early 30s), THE PEOPLE WHO BULLIED ME, are now into those things they bullied me for, and that pisses me the fuck off.
And now those same people who bullied you are now becoming the main face of the space/hobby/interests etc overtime watering down the type of people and watering down what made it great in the first place whooo and making you feel like the outcaste in ya own thing YAAAAY.
To be fair, people can change. Maybe 1% of them went through some heavy introspection and would apologize to you if you met them again.
@@brokenhalo2001 how can you "water down the type of people" lol. That doesn't make sense. They also can't push you out of any space unless you let yourself be pushed out.
That's how you know you won
As someone who grew up a shy, awkward kid with geeky interests the popular "mean" girls made fun of me for, I feel this too. I do agree with the point that people can change over time though - and that young teens can be some of the shittiest people you'll meet lol but many do grow out of it. My resentment for those memories does admittedly make it hard to embrace their newfound love for the things they once bullied me for, but accepting that people can grow and change is something worth keeping in mind too. (And hey, if they now realize the value in the things they once deemed "uncool", then good for them.)
On the topic of gatekeeping, speaking on “wether you’ve suffered enough,” we should not sensationalize trauma/suffering within the aesthetic.
Cannot be stated often enough...
Eh, quit whining and attend your post at the fucking gate. Don't let normies through it's pretty simple.
Whether
100% this. Like it's one thing to gatekeep based on people appropriating causes as alt aesthic (ex trauma core, autsim core and the acab hello kitty trend) but is totally different on people gate keeping goth, emo etc on weather a person has depression or selfs harms
Exactly
I was that black alt girl who was completely taunted day to day by peers and family; my family was the worst. I ended up being forced into not wearing the clothing, makeup, etc due to the beliefs of my parents, so here I am at twenty-five healing my inner child and going back to being who I never got to be. All in all, it is annoying that some of the same people who treated us like shit are now popularizing alt culture and aesthetic, but I'd rather see the culture becoming "trendy" than to have todays alt kids still go through the same amount of trouble that we went through in 2010.
I wanted to mention that in past alt/goth fashion trends it wasn’t odd to wear military clothing, including Nazi era uniforms, as a big middle finger to the military industrial complex and Nazis. Nowadays those items don’t seem to translate quite as well and are more likely to just be seen as offensive.
Oh my god, I didn't come across this while researching but that's wild! The appropriation of oppressive figures/systems in fashion is probably one of the most interesting things I learned about general alt trends (though yeah, it'd be harder to get away with an ironic red armband than say, a cross lol).
Nazi and Soviet poggers are still a huge thing. Lots of guys in the historical tank/panzer community like to photograph their girls holding Nazi and Soviet era weapons and garb
It’s just a vibe
I was the goth girl in high school and I still have negative feelings towards traditionally goth fashion becoming trendy. I wore black lipstick and dark makeup and lots of black and I was tortured for it. During the first week of school in the 8th grade some kid I had never spoken to (I was also the new kid) told his friend that he thought I worshipped the devil because I always wore black. I was harassed by teachers and other authority figures for things that I didn't do. Once I was pulled into the guidance counselors office and SEARCHED because some kid said I was on herion. I was in the 8th grade. I was bullied relentlessly. Why did people think it was funny to tell me, the goth girl, that it wasn't Halloween like I didn't know when Halloween was. Seeing people praised for wearing black lipstick and fishnets triggers some seriously negative feelings in me. I'm glad that things have changed but, honestly, I feel that all the people who suffered for this fashion deserve better.
It's fair to feel the way that you do, and I'm really sorry to hear this. I'm also glad the niche interests I used to get picked on for back in the day are now a lot more embraced, its a better world when kids can more easily express or explore the things they're into without fear of getting needlessly bullied for it.
That said, I absolutely agree that those who suffered for these subcultures deserved a whole lot better. It also gives me hope, however, that people (and young kids especially) these days are learning to become a bit more accepting.
>Traditionally Goth fashion becoming trendy
But is it really? When I look at these "goth" clothing on sites like Killstar, Shein and Romwe, I don't think they look like "goth" clothing at all. They just look like generic alternative stuff at most and Halloween costumes at worst. I know it's confusing but think about it. Assuming that you listen to goth music, think about the musicians in these bands, did you ever see them wearing clothes that look like something on these sites? Did you see goth musicians like Patricia Morrison, Andrew Eldritch, Wayne Hussey, Siouxsie Sioux, and Ronny Moorings decked out to the nines in occult symbols? Yeah...
That's more or less where I'm getting at.
Same here, I'm still goth and i started dressing this way in middle school. I had kids accuse me of stalking someone, calling me slurs, asking me if I worshipped the devil. I had friends who dressed similarly be profiled as potential school shooters. Of course the classic "You know its not Halloween, right?" And now I see a lot of those same people from middle school and high school who treated me and my friends like that wearing demonia boots and black lipstick and trying to insist that Lil Peep is goth. On the one side, I'm very happy that the scene, the style and the music are WAY more accessible to kids and teens who are interested in it now than it was for me and my friends back in the 00s. But on the flip side it definitely stings seeing people adapt a style that they use to bully people for wearing before it was cool and trendy. And clearly this is a pretty common experience among the various alt communities if there are memes about it being circulated, and so many people in this comment section alone detailing their personal anecdotes.
I'm so sorry that happened to you! 😵😓
basically humans are mostly hostile to those who are not like them to varying degrees. Pop culture and corporations need new audiences to sell stuff to and don't care what this is and steal real youth trends and mass market them. They actually troll youth events and people's social media and steal ideas and have been for decades. People are horrible especially in high school and don't tend to change much in adulthood. Especially if you do t fit in.
Something I'd like to point out is that gothic =/= goth.
Although some fashion brands and people may take inspiration from it, gothic architecture has very little to do with the goth subculture. Its name originates from *gothic rock*, a music genre from the 80s that occasionally takes inspiration from gothic literature (as seen by "Bela Legosi's Dead" by bauhaus, one of the more popular songs within the subculture) but is mainly characterized by its use of instruments and vocal style. Goth in general is an umbrella term for many genres that originated from postpunk and have similar traits to gothic rock, such as deathrock, coldwave, ethereal, and many more.
The fashion style that we know to be associated with goth came from people getting creative and taking inspiration from the sound and looks of the music artists that helped start the genre (The Cure and Siouxsie and the Banshees being more obvious examples, but many many more artists contributed to this). It is an *Optional* part of the subculture. A form of self expression.
What defines a goth as a person is someone who enjoys the music and at least *wants* to take part in the community in some way. You can show up to a goth club in a t-shirt and jeans and no one'll care as long as you're cool about it. This is not a high set of standards, but many will call us gatekeepers and elitists for this.
What IS elitism is this bizarre and very modern idea that you have to completely overhaul your entire wardrobe and home with luxury occult brands and expensive items, and to live that way 24/7 or you aren't a "real goth". It completely undermines the working class people and values that built this subculture in the first place, and puts a price tag on a subculture that was never supposed to be about that. You do NOT need a 24/7 darkalt aesthetic to be a goth. It's fine to have those things, it's fine to want them, but it is not a requirement and we need to stop treating it as such.
I also have a lot of words for people who think of us as the "big tiddy goth gf" stereotype but I'll save that for another day. Angela Benedict has a good video on it I believe, I think it's titled "Goth is not your fetish" and discusses the way this has harmed so many people within the subculture, particularly minors.
I also have some playlists for people who are interested in learning more about goth, this is my playlist explaining what it is and a bit of the history: th-cam.com/play/PLK4LkzpKtOvItSFLpDcTyb8lQjNjqGix5.html
And this is my personal playlist for goth music: th-cam.com/play/PLK4LkzpKtOvIy34On5_onb2HpN8mRn5sH.html
thissss. and yess, i love angela!!!
Thank you for the playlists. I wasn't aware of the music association with Goth.
Incorrect.
A true Goth is a German or Scandinavian who is intent on toppling the Roman Empire.
You don't look like that, so you're not an actual Goth.
Consider yourself gate kept pleb.
Gothic is closer to Victorian styles. Goth is more modern. With some weird cross-pollination in the form of goth-Loli (anime). That said, some of the nicest, sweetest people I’ve ever known are Goth lovers.
thank you! I was looking for a comment like this. I might just add, that the fashion style might be also, similar to music, derived from punk. It might be most noticeable on the 80s goths with their deathawks and overall punk-ish appeareance.
The victiorian associations might come from the subversive trend to wear corsets (and fetishwear) as regular clothes, inspiration by gothic literature which was popular in the victorian era and most importantly, it came with gothic metal, which is music-wise not related to gothic rock related genres. Gothic metal just got the name because of the eerie gothic atmosphere (again, see the gothic horrors) and the members and fans liked victorian or other historically inspired clothing.
However, many people in my generation (born in the early 90s), discovered the bands adjanced to the metal bands first and considered themselves goth because of that (imagine Evanescence and Nightwish fans, to mention the best known influences. Technically Evanescence is alt rock and Nightwish symphonic metal, but it was under the same umbrella being a teen in the early 00s) and then they digged deeper and discovered all the postpunk and goth rock bands and now they sort of like both
There's a certain part of me that feels like the backlash about "not like other girls" is itself unhealthy to a certain extent, having a certain tinge of "if you don't get along with everyone you're wrong and a pick me"
Ooof not gonna lie, a part of me worried that some would take it to this extent too. 😓 honestly guys, gals, and everyone in between should just be free to be who they want to be without the stress of adhering to some arbitrary social criteria - whether that be the desperate attempt at individuality/contrarianism or having to gain the validation of _everyone_ .
I remember emo kids would get beat up where I lived, so I would avoid liking "emo" bands/looks/clothes out of fear, and everyone around me would do it too. After a while everyone apparently hated emo, but I'm sure no one knew why. It all probably started from some bully's insecurities and spread like the plague.
I'm glad the younger generations are apparently embracing it.
I'm enjoying seeing a resurgence of it too in recent times, it's like a nostalgic blast from the past. :D
I also remember the general disdain for it back in the day which I assume mainly stemmed from its more emotional attributes compared to other forms of rock. The emo bullying thankfully wasn't all that prominent where I lived but I did see reports of these kids getting attacked in other parts of the world, which still baffles me today.
@@ana-isabel Thanks for replying! I love your videos even though I don't know anything about 75% of their topics
I can tell you amongst guys, it challenged the masculine archetype, much like Hair Metal back in the 80's. Thin guys caked in make up with long hair and high-pitched voices singing about...😱EMOTIONS 😱...is not at all what guys were supposed to be like in the 2000's. Especially not with the backdrop of Nu-Metal and Hip-Hop culture being the dominant forces in music at the time, which were all about aggression, flaunting money, and sexual conquest. That's where that hatred came from.
@@JetWarrior Yep, pretty much this! God forbid men openly express their emotions 😩Thankfully we're a lot better at challenging these baseless standards for how people should behave and express themselves, and I like how the rising popularity of "alt" communities helps drive that.
@@ana-isabel Alternative boys can generally "get away with" (i.e. without being gatekept, pigeonholed, bullied, fetishized, ostracized, etc) a lot more until they cross gender norms, at which point they can suddenly "get away with" a lot less. I think a lot of the backlash against emo was due to it being a rare example of boy-generated youth culture that intersected with the early 2000s version of the perennial crisis of masculinity.
The bullying that trickled out to emo girls was often about the bands (read: men) they liked, if not an even more direct contempt for their emo boyfriends. I think this contributed to the "assumption of damage" type girl-on-girl bullying: "She has daddy issues / she's a cutter / I wonder when she'll KHS / etc." Or, of course, "she's a lesbian" (naturally, because she likes "effeminate" men)
Of course bullying can take on a life of its own, and most bullies will "look for any excuse." But I think it's pretty clear that overpolicing of masculine norms had more than a little generative effect on emo bullying.
I started college in New York in the late 80's and was introduced to Goth (I was already a nerd, lol!). One of my best friends, who I met at the time, was, and remained, goth until her death early this year. She was kind, funny, edgy, accepting, and one of the loveliest people I've ever known. Her memorial was crowded, with people from all walks of life. She had so many passions, and so many people loved her. So when I think of Goth, I think of her. And, when I'm at my best, I try to be more like her. She never judged anyone on the surface.
Seems like your friend was a pretty awesome person. I'm sorry for your loss.
She was an OG. RIP🖤
Thank you both! ❤️
They sound wonderful 💜
when i was first introduced to the online alt (mostly fashion) community, it took me a long time to notice how different it is from the alt community i witnessed back in high school (literally 2016, not that long ago) and how everyone used the same three songs in their videos, wore the same outfit combinations from the same stores, etc etc... it's like the new wave of surface level alternative is purely a social media aesthetic and there's a strict "no originality" policy
I know what you mean, but I feel like most communities will always have this more commercialized, mainstream, "trendy" aspect to it. It can get tiring to see the same trends over and over, but hopefully it becomes a gateway for newcomers to explore more of what alt is about, especially with its rich culture/history in music and fashion. (Many won't, which may be disappointing, but I feel like as long as they aren't doing harm or being dicks to those into less trendier aspects - then at least they're enjoying something about the community!)
This happens over and over, the cycle of subcultures. Everything I hear brought up in this video & comments, people were saying in their own language back when I got into the goth / metal scene. It's just human nature doing it's thing. At some point you just stop caring. All my favorite bands are changed or different. Most the locales are gone or different. Most of the people are gone or moved to other styles. Out of all my friends, I'm the only one whose wardrobe is literally only black. Whatever. No one really seems to care anymore. Turns out all young adult generations kinda need to go through that for themselves. It's part of the learning process. Nothing new under the sun, I guess. I'm just glad people don't yell at me on the street like they used to in the mid 00s. So much better these days. But ofc you don't really see that till you compare the past to the present, which is hard when most people still hugely active in the scene are fairly young and probably don't remember the pre-social media scene.
As a crazy cat guy I love your TH-cam name House cat with cell phone privileges
I've been " Alt" since highschool. Did know there was a name. I was called goth, scene, emo, and days I like to dress like a cute pirate , I was " Jack Sparrow" mockingly. Throw being a black girl on top of that, I was just called " weird " but also " cool" to a lot of my other peers .
I can relate. I had a reputation for fighting so when I started wearing black and fishnets some of the other black boys thought I was weird or somehow would no longer stand up for myself. People would talk trash but never put their hands on me. I just tried to stay out of trouble so I could graduate and not have to do summer school. Ugh lots of verbal abuse and drama at home...so glad to be an adult now lol.
be alt and black is hard af. i was bullied so bad in middle school that i just reverted to basic and kept my interests private when I started high school
I think I was probably someone who would have benefitted from the “alt girl community” growing up, but when I was younger in a small town, it was kind of bundled into “goth/emo” and not something a shy, heavy-set nerd would be welcomed into. I liked a lot of the qualifying “aesthetics” (black clothing, love bats and Halloween vibes, alt/metal/punk music preferences, etc.), but I didn’t “look enough” like Lydia from Beetlejuice to be considered valid.
Definitely fell hard into the “not like the other girls” misogyny pit, really not proud of it. I am not surprised to hear about the gatekeeping aspect though. I can understand people feeling a little annoyed at their “rejected self” suddenly being popularized and used for clout, but I heavily disagree with the idea that we need to draw lines on who is a “true alt” when it just makes the space divisive and uncomfortable. A recent example I can think of for comparison was certain Metallica “fans” being mad at the surge of popularity for the band after Stranger Things’ Season 4 finale. Their disdain and attempts to draw lines on who were the real “fans” were shut down by the band and completely miss the value in how relevant the music was to the character in the show. Nothing is gained by excluding people from something and really, it just highlights a person’s hypocrisy-if you’re mad someone is using your “style” for clout, then why are you shutting them out for that same clout? Let people enjoy and find identity in what they want.
I don’t spend much time these days paying attention to the alt scene, but this was a very enlightening view and I hope this space continues to become much more inclusive as time goes on!
"If you're mad someone is using your 'style' for clout, then why are you shutting them out for the same clout?" I love this and couldn't have said it better myself. Don't get me wrong, it was a mindset I had to grow out of in my younger years too, but in retrospect I should've been glad that the things I felt isolated in liking are now a lot more accessible - it only means the younger gen getting into it don't have to feel as alone in their interests. Pretty keen on seeing how this subculture evolves as time passes :)
@Trinity M - I appreciate the distinction, thank you!
@Trinity M Which music? Darkwave, industrial, folk-punk, 90s rave? All of these have touched on the aesthetic of goth, and all of them (plus so many more) are played at goth nights. Gothic is a style that appreciates the beauty in decay - and there is some music attached to that, but gothic was the predecessor of what kids today call "aesthetic."
@@jencendiary Goth music is Gothic Rock (both the old style stuff and darkwave + deathrock). The other stuff you have mentioned are not actual Goth music and are just completely unrelated music genres. They just ended up forming an "alliance" of sorts with the goth scene because of how they were smaller than the punk and metal scene. Either way goth is fundamentally a punk offshoot and anything else was added on later on due to various reasons. What gets added on top of the original punk look is mainly down to weather it has any dark/macabre vibes and if it has associations with the mysterious. So you end up with iconography and symbolism reminiscent of anything from victorian and renaissance stuff (because of the original comparison between the musical feel of the scene and the feel evoked by gothic literature, whose ties to those 2 periods is mainly due to setting) to occult/pagan symbology. A good example of something that wasn't shown in this video is the use of the ankh. Which mainly got popularized by the film "The Hunger".
I also think there is an argument to be made that whilst emo goth scene aesthetics became more popular and have boomed in recent years it's no longer alt.
It's become mainstream and popular and therefore doesnt satisfy the very notion of alt in the first place. It's not wrong to like these styles do what you love.
But to call them alt at this stage feels like a misnomer.
Alt is about being alternative to the mainstream, so by joining the mainstream it can no longer be alt, even if the styles once were.
To be angry that people are freely able to experience and try more extreme styles without ostracization speaks about how far we have come, and that bitterness needs to be let go.
But at the same time the 'true alt' if there is such a thing, in this generation certainly isnt goth, scene, y2k, emo, egirl, pixie, witch, cottagecore etc
It's some underground style that has yet to blossom into the social consciousness and be commercialised.
Reminder that goth is primarily a musical subculture and not necessarily a visual aesthetic, although there are some common elements that goths like to wear. If you don't listen to the music then you're not goth, simply as. I'm not gate keeping but simply trying to inform what goth is.
reminder the no one said this shit in the 80s. most people don’t make the music they listen to their whole personalities
@xLadyRaine Yeah, because the subculture we identify as goth today didn't like labels back then, but subcultures change. I think the label is important because when I'm looking for music, I don't want every alternative looking band to be labeled as goth but actual goth music. Also no one is making music their personality, project harder
Honestly you got the goth subculture so wrong…. It’s not a fashion subculture, and it isn’t linked to Gothic art… it’s literally just a music based subculture that started in the 80s.. just like punk and metal, it’s all about the music.
Yes, the subculture has music as one of its core aspects and I should've highlighted that a little better. I mainly wanted to focus on the fashion/aesthetic styles surrounding it, but didn't mean to imply that it was simply a fashion - my bad if it came off that way!
@@ana-isabel no it’s honestly okay, I came off more aggressive than i wanted💀 it’s just frustrating sometimes when music subcultures turn into aesthetics, I see it now happening with metal too after stranger things and it feels kinda weird, but the video was still very good!
Goth bands were inspired by gothic art, that's where the name comes from. Many of the lyrics where inspired from gothic lit, such as supernatural elements and the moodiness. Also so many gothic cathedral or cemetery album covers
Didn't Ana mention that music is the backbone of most alt subcultures, including the goth subculture? Also, it very much has its earliest roots/inspirations in gothic art, literature and the like.
@@ashton4847 What we call "goth" bands from the 80s now did not even call themselves "goth" back then, and were inspired by many varying artforms, such as surrealism, dada, German expressionism, etc-- not much to do with gothic architecture really.
I find it funny that my older sister hates this new alt girl look her eldest daughter is doing. My sister is into Lacuna coil and all bands that sounds like them and presented herself like Death from that sandman comics since 1997 to probably 2010s.
what does she hate about it? Is she cringing at her past self or does she think that this is an inauthentic bastardization of a style she’s so familiar with?
@@andreja9425 Lol, you actually have to ask? The answer is obviously the latter.
@@andreja9425 seems pretty self-explanatory to me
@@JohnDoe-vc5qb not always I’ve seen plenty of the latter
If I had a daughter I'd educate her on everything OG vintage so she won't dress like an egirl lol
I remember that an emo told me she liked it because "they accept everyone" but I felt like it was more that they accepted people like her. She was strongly against "regular" girls and "fake emos" and that's just not being open to everyone
Literally this
Not trying to change your point but that's how I feel as a gay guy with LGBT community. No place for normal guys like me. Being gay has to be my entire personality like them amd all they talk about.
Lots of hypocritical groups out there who say their open but really aren't to certain groups of folks.
I remember a lot of scene kids having niches within niches within niches and they were all CONSTANTLY having drama with each other. I seemed exhausting.
I think the main issue with "Alt Girl" is the fact that "Alt" is not a specific subculture. It may be exactly the problem you 16:23 chapter. With fashion being a language, being "Alt" is just being outside the norm, taking language from actual subcultures, but not bringing with that language any of the meaning. If safety pins start being popular, will it still stand for "ally"?
Thank you! I’ve been to alt fashions for years now but none of them fit with what we call the trending “alt” today. There’s so many alt fashion sub genres that it’s too broad. (Especially in like, Japan, I’m into like 3 of them and my wallet sobs)
Since when are safety pins signifying of anything? I don’t remember the sex pistols or skrewdriver being very open-minded to out it quaintly
Alt style might be more accepted and mainstream on social media, in music, and in clothing stores, but it is not widely accepted in day to day life. I dress more on the goth side of things and I still get mean stares and hurtful comments. At one job I had a coworker start a rumor that I was possed by a demon. She started this rumor on my 1st day on the job from nothing more than how I dressed.
I mean depending if you’re religious or not, just embrace it ig
I'm baffled that rumors like "being possessed by a demon" are still a thing. What is this - the medieval ages??
It sounds like a joke you should just laugh at or embrace I don’t get the hurtness
@@Sevren_literally what I do😂 I play along with it and tell them I’m satanist and all
That's shitty, noone should go through that
I'll take a few punches for saying I am and will be a gatekeeper.
There's a lot of discussion going on about being "not like other girls", trying to be unique and different. For me it was always quite the opposite. For years and years I was searching for my people and it was challenging. Never cared about standing out, I wanted to blend in and be a small part of community of people that appreciated gothic music and arts. I used to go to concerts and look at elder goths from the distance, get inspired by their dyi methods for clothes and try to apply some for myself. I always felt respect and admiration towards the people that were in the scene. It had this magical aura around it, it's hard to explain.
The music, art, clothes weren't so easily available at the click of the button, you had to put in work to seek it. And the process of it was what made you so emotionally invested into the subculture. So it quite literally becomes your lifestyle. To broaden your collection of music and ideas you had to seek other people who were doing the same thing. And to share your favorite albums, inspirations with another person was an intimate experience because everything held a sentimental value. That is what made this scene so magical and special.
And now imagine, the scene that was like home for you is watered down by newcomers with costumes that are mimmicking your second skin. It's now even harder to find people that have genuine love for the music. When you go to a goth space that blasts screamo mumble rap or phonk music and you go "wait, that's not it", you get slapped with a gatekeeper/stuck up/snob tag. Even better, they don't even acknowledge that it's a movement BASED on music and just cherry-pick the aspects of your aesthetic. Then make it tiktok-friendly with sexualized undertones for the male gaze and you get the big tiddy goth.
Bam, now you're just a meme. Sure, the public doesn't shun you that much anymore. But you're hella more fetishized. It's harder than ever to find spaces with genuine love for the culture.
So yeah, I'll happily gatekeep whatever that is not lost with my nails and teeth. Being criticized and called names has been my reality since childhood, it doesn't bother me anymore.
p.s. I'm not against people that discover the subculture because of music, I love seeing them and sharing stuff, it is what keeps the spirit alive.
I've talked about gatekeeping in various forms quite a bit on my channel, and your comment is one of the few I've seen that really breaks down the flipside of the argument well in ways I didn't really consider when making this video, so I appreciate this.
I personally think it's all good and well (productive, even) to inform others of a subculture/community's roots - since most will always have a "commercialised", watered down side to it that corporations can profit from. I think its fair to bring up distinctions between what is and isn't part of a subculture/community/genre/what-have-you, otherwise we wouldn't have these to begin with. But I also think it's worth taking into account that trends and subcultures evolve over time; many edge a little more into the mainstream, but that's not the fault of newcomers who may not have known its history. The kind of gatekeeping I'm critical of is the type that shuns or excludes those who have a more "casual" view on things, rather than sharing your knowledge and getting the other person to understand more of your world. I've seen and experienced both types, and its always really cool to encounter those willing to do the former - they got me to appreciate a newfound interest in ways I wouldn't have (and vice versa!). The latter, however, never does anyone any favours.
I can't speak for the elder goth community, but I would've assumed communities/fandoms in general would've been easier to find these days with the help of social media? Of course, experiences differ - so I'm not dismissing yours. Speaking from my experience as someone who's a fan of niche indie films, in an era where Marvel films and Netflix movies are taking up more of the mainstream spotlight, I was always able to find a rabbit hole on TH-cam or a Reddit forum that shared my more cult interests, fortunately. Again though, that's just my anecdotal two cents.
@@ana-isabel Thank you for your response! Just like you mentioned different types of gatekeeping, I've been guilty of both, but I've left the "you can't sit with us" attitude where it belongs- in highschool. I do, however, talk to people about the differences between goth subculture and darkly inclined (i find this name humorous but whatevs) as most people get mixed up thinking Marilyn Manson or Lil Peep were goth. Most people go "gotcha" and move on and this is where it ends. But the moment someone still goes "no, they ARE goth, stop being toxic and get on with times" is when it gets personal and I will probably be an asshole about it.
The best part is when someone connects to "the roots" and wants to discover new music, I'll spend my entire day sharing music with them because I remember how magical it felt to discover the songs that forever changed the backround sound of my life.
Few days ago I looked up gothic tags on TikTok to see what content is presented regarding goths on one of the most popular social medias. I was hoping I'll find new people to follow and get inspiration from. Instead, it was flooded by egirls cosplaying as goths or just using the tag for their smokey eye tutorial. No interesting music, barely any substance; just lots of fetishization and misinterpretation. It's not surprising but infuriating tbh, but that's a whole another topic. Thanks for your thoughts.
I agree
I’m not much of a goth, but I definitely can relate to thinking you finally found people you can share your passion with with only to find out it’s just some people "misusing" the label. I love listening to rock and metal music, groove metal, death metal, and nu metal specifically because that’s the genre my dad and I bonded with growing up. I like listening to a wide variety of genres tho like psychedelic rock and pop punk. It gets really awkward when a student in my school proclaims they’re emo/goth/grunge and when I ask them about their favorite artists they’d reply with Corpse Husband or Melanie Martinez. It’s not that I hate those artists, I like listening to them on occasion too. I just feel sad because I got my hopes up for nothing since it’s already so hard to find someone the same age as me who has the same love for rock. :"D
I dunno I find it odd you're like "you get slapped with the label if gatekeeper or snob" but you started and ended your comment saying you'll happily gatekeep. There's educating, telling people about the subculture and all that, and there's gatekeeping which helps no one.
Take me for example. You pride yourself on how inaccessible these things were for you and how you were able to overcome that, that's a trophy for you. I didn't look punk or anything, not because I didn't want to, but because I couldn't. I grew up a non-skinny middle class mixed multi racial (none of which are white) girl in rural small village on a Caribbean island. I could have made trying to find alt things my full-time job it still probably would not have worked out for me. Hell, even if I got my hands on something I could barely justify getting since I'd barely have anywhere to wear it because strict school uniforms are a thing in my country.
And while you may not feel any ill will towards me specifically, attitudes like that encourage aggression towards people like me. I do learn, and I know more than many people who just got into the scene, but I don't know as much as I'd like to, I never got to have that teenage dirtbag phase, I never got out there to find out for myself, to find the things everyone else got to, I'm a grown woman and I barely feel like I can truly learn and discover myself as most people do in their teens now. And I feel like crap about it, I feel like an immature looser cause people like you are way ahead of me in their journey. Gatekeeping doesn't help anybody dude. It's not cool.
I was bullied for being goth in my middle school years. I am a queer and disabled Latina and my bullies were others in the Latine community as I lived in a majority Hispanic town in USA.
Now- everyone is fetishising even the QUEER GIRLS AND BI/STRAIGHT MEN it is absolutely weird.
Unless you're traditional, the Latin community will reject you. Typically calling you white or not really latin. I think things are changing now.
A lot of things are fetishized, but the thing with people, they will bully you if you're not liking exactly what they are liking. Now that its so common and open now, people are expressing their desires more. Aint nothing wrong with fetishizing as long as it doesn't get unhealthy.
A few comments:
1) If you're dressing like a goth, I beg of you, for your own listening pleasure and spiritual nourishment, listen to the music of Rozz Williams, especially his band "Christian Death with Rozz Williams" ("Christian Death" without him is not not the same band or even the same style of music). His music and poetry are are so beautiful, so touching. And learning about his tragic life makes it all the more touching.
2) It's amusing to grow old enough to see teenagers cos-playing your culture (though we all kind of start out cos-playing I suppose)
3) I wouldn't worry too much about "alt-girls" or "alt-boys" draining the culture of its vitality. First, the scene pretty much already did that on its own as its music drifted away from its VERY gay and trans and generally subversive and political roots to the significantly more hetero (and frankly just knuckleheaded) subgenres of EBM.
4) And besides you can't water down "alt", because "alt" has always been a corporate marketing term. That guy trying to gatekeep "alt" is pretty hilarious. What is he gatekeeping exactly? Counting Crows fandom? Googoo Dolls? Nickleback?
5) I say let the kids dress how they want. And kids, please, at least try out some of the music and learn a bit of the history. Christian Death with Rozz Williams. Coil. Ike Yard. Skinny Puppy (80s/90s era). Severed Heads. Front 242 (80s era). Cabaret Voltaire. Foetus. Clock DVA ("Buried Dreams" and earlier). Einsturzende Neubauten. Bauhaus. Joy Division. The Smiths. Siouxie and the Banshees. Black Tape for a Blue Girl. Attrition (their album "Attrition of Reason" is *mwa!* cheffs kiss; a perfect fusion of goth and electro-funk). Hell, even The Cure or Nine Inch Nails.
You're absolutely right, the bands like Christian Death and similar Death Rock bands is where the entire music began to start in branching off from Punk. Christian Death was never the same after Valor took over, I never really liked them as much after that, it just never was the same without Rozz. I'm also a big fan of bands like 45 Grave, All About Eve and Skeletal Family. While there are a few newer acts which are decent and keep the classic sound from the 80's, sadly there are not as many innovative and timeless acts like it was from the 80's and 90's. Even the dress part too, look at how these e-girls and what not are doing their makeup compared to the original Punks and Goths. Siouxsie Sioux is a beautiful woman to begin with, her features, her voice, and the classic style of how she did her hair and makeup. It was simple and elegant. The way that makeup is being done today even exaggerating it too much just doesn't look good like the way it was done when the scene started.
@@prussiansocietyofamerica All true, though I'm not sure I would wish the old school goth lifestyle on anyone. Those were times of heavy drug use and dangerous sexual practices. Truly, if you want to be a real goth, you better start carving the words "kinky sex" into your chest and get that coke or meth habit going. Life is about to get wild. (I kid... or do I? I suppose it depends on how deep into the 80s, and which scene)
@@padrianfrazier Yeah it's true, especially about the promiscuity part, but some did get into the drugs although nowhere near the level of the original Punk scene. The issue is that people ought to be able to get into something if they into it, say something like Goth Music or anything in the Rock scene but not have to be "influenced" to engage in degenerate practices. I never fell into the trap, but I've seen many people who have, and the thing is there was a notion about being a rebel "without a cause". I've always been a rebel with a cause. That's why the scene had degenerated.
Sex Gang Children was my jam. All the bands you mentioned were and are so damned good. 👍
Nitzer Ebb and Joy Division as well.
@@kontankarite Yes! Both are great! I was listening to Ebb Head on headphones while walking around in Portland once, the song "Godhead" (or where he's yelling "godhead" in the chorus), and I was approached by a Hari Krishna who kept talking about "the Godhead". Funny coinkadink.
I got called a poser by my ex and his roommate because I started dressing alt. I've always put myself in that culture just never had the most access to the fashion as a plus size person. I dressed emo and goth through out school but once I got older it was harder to find the fashion in my size. I hate that people judge the outside so much, I'm happy that it's easier to find clothes I like now!
Fear of being called a poser or a wannabe is what ultimately prevents me from getting into this. I'm into the style and have always been the weirdo artsy type but it's hard to fit in when I'm a Christian and have always been viewed as a really traditional person. I hope to finally really start experimenting with my style my next and final year of high school.
Lolita fashion isn't new at all, some argue traces of it have existed in Japan since the 70s, But it for sure has existed since the 90s. It has gotten a lot more popular on tiktok but the lolita community worldwide has existed for way longer
Was looking for a comment like this, we’ve existed for a super long time! I’d say we boomed in the west around 2008-2010 and boomed again during the pandemic. It kinda sucks that “alt” has turned into a specific but vague darker edgier style than just “fashion that’s outside the norm”
I was a teen in the 90s and never saw or heard of this "Lolita fashion" at that time. The major subcultures were: punk, goth, industrial, raver, "metal" people, "art" people, and theater people. Extremely niche fashion trends were maybe in magazines and on runways, but not things that people identified with as part of their identity. What you see as "Lolita fashion" now would have just been an individual person's fashion choice-- likely one of the art or theater people-- imitating something they saw in a fashion magazine or in a movie or book.
@@heidih3048 yes, back in the 90s it hadn't reached outside of Japan yet.
The thing about goths and crosses that a lot of people don't seem to understand, is that a lot of us are Christian. There's nothing about the music we listen to that precludes us from being Christian. So of course some stylized crucifixes and rosary beads can be worn.
I know I'm far outside of the Demographic here as a 45 year old cis male with kids. I'm just out here making sure I understand my kid and younger family members. I just have to say I love your cultural breakdowns and even more the community you have developed of varied but thoughtful people in the comment section. A lot of different views in play but general respect for each other, I dig it. Keep up the great work!
Aw thank you! Productive discussions in the comments are the best I can hope for (and I learn a lot from the others on here too)! Glad you've been enjoying the videos so far. 😊
@@thotslayer9914 ok edgelord.
@@thotslayer9914 bit boring that mate
I really enjoyed your video. I do, however, disagree on some of your points about the goth subculture, especially the connection with gothic architecture. Goth is a music subculture that evolved from post-punk and only got their name later, since "gothic" essentially means "barbaric" - that is about the only connection there is. While fashion is an essential part of goth, calling the scene an aesthetic just doesn't do it justice. Same goes with punk, grunge etc. I am very happy that you touched on that in your vid.
Thank you for saying this. People tend to misunderstand the goth scene and focus way too much on the look and not what the scene is centered around which is music And this misinformation is what leads people to thinking (and believing) that music in these respective music-based scenes are a thing of the past when they aren't, especially when it comes to goth music where it has done nothing but thrive in the 2010s and continuing to do so in the 2020s so far.
Questioning power structures and personal property is just universally a sexy look
Communism is sexy?
Stay away from the mass graves friend, don't want you dripping on them.
That's really all there is to this discussion. If you just copied someone else style and beliefs I don't care about your tattoos and protests; if you're only doing it to belong with others it's not sexy. On the other hand, if you are into the most basic shit ever but have powerful beliefs and a strong sense of personal style you're fucking hot. It has nothing to do with what you wear and/or say, it matters with what conviction and reasoning you wear and/or say.
I think there's a really powerful message in the difference between adopting a (sub)culture and fitting yourself into it, versus adopting a subculture and making it your own.
Loved this breakdown. As a black guy who grew up homeschooled through highschool and was drawn to this culture. I can admit, I def permed my hair to get that emo effect. Gawd that Sh*t was trash on me. Why would my parents let me do that? XD Anyway, all I'm tryna say is, I was really in that EMO sh*t. MCR 4VR! RWAR! 🖤🦇
Aw dude, you were discovering, exploring, developing your tastes! Finding what worked for you. I've learned to look back at my teen years cringe in a kinder way 😅
@@ballistic_goat I appreciate your insight 🙏🏾💜
Good on your parents for letting you! My parents didn't, so it was an unclosed "gestalt" for me and I had to go wild with everything I wanted when it was already kinda late for that 😅 But it was still so freeing and worth it (I honestly slayed dressing completely non-alt combined with grey/purple/joker green hair back then LOL)
@@Li_Tobler Damn… I’m sorry your folks had to limit you like that. I’m happy got to experience that style eventually thou! That hair color combo sounds wild 👀
Purple & Green is my color favorites 💜💚
@@trippyvannoir.333 it wasn't so bad, they're just a bit old fashioned 😅 When I eventually did it, they even complemented it after the first shock 😂 Thank you for your kind words though, be blessed 💗💗💗
I always loved the alternative girl /nerdy / part of the « loser gang » in pop culture movies 😂
I might have related to it very young 😂
thank you for touching on black girls in this aesthetic :) as a black girl who is into this culture it means a lot
THANK YOU for saying its an umbrella term! I have always been 'alternative' but I am not an e-girl, or part of this new wave (which is fine and ive taken inspo from it) ! I've been alternative for as long as I can remember, and I've called myself alternative because I didnt want to push myself into emo, or goth, or scene but I knew I loved snippets of each subculture, so since around 13 I started calling myself alternative bcuz im a mixture of everything, and now when I say im 'alt' people assume e-girl, or one specific look, when really as you said its an umbrella term
I think one aspect of the "mainsteam-ification" of alt fashion is that the alt culture is feeling more and more isolating as a result.
On a purely anecdotal level, as it has become more fashionable I have felt increasingly alienated by the look; it used to be an indicator to me for like minded people who I would have similar interests with, all those weirdos just like me. However since then, going through college and uni in the UK, I've tried to talk to and befriend but it's all just bounced off as they've turned out to be "normies" (god I hate using that word unironically) and on some fundamental level it just doesn't work.
Maybe this is just a product of the modern world, but as more people have joined in I've never felt lonelier in it. I'm in my mid 20s now but I definitely feel I gel better with people in their early 30s for whom the "stereotypes" still seem to hold their ground better. So maybe I'm just old and not hip now lmao.
That sucks, I'm sorry to hear 😞 I'm glad you were at least able to find connections even if they werent exactly from the same age group.
I do think the commercialisation of certain alt styles has unfortunately watered down the meaning of what these aesthetics mean in the public eye. Companies that profit off of this don't really care about a subculture's beliefs or history, just that they want to market certain (safe) aspects of it to the widest demographic possible. While it makes the fashion more accessible (both to potential newcomers _and_ those already in it), it also means that the clothing isn't necessarily an accurate indicator anymore of your commitment/level of interest in a community.
From my own anecdotal experiences, there's sometimes still a foundation to be built off of with people who have more "normie"-level knowledge in a certain topic compared to you. If you're lucky, they'd be willing to learn more from you, or even have you appreciate certain aspects of it you've overlooked before. It's hard to find others who are as into something - especially niche interests - as you are, but as long as the same level of passion/interest for it is there, I've found you can still vibe with them pretty well. (Just my thoughts; I understand that those are, of course, best-case scenarios. I wish you best of luck in finding more of your crowd!)
This has me pondering: Did I count as an alt girl when I was a teenager in the '80s? I was never part of a subculture, but I was earnestly obsessed with being "original" and "unique." Vintage stores were heaven, but my look was also cobbled together with cheap, trend-chasing, mass-manufactured stuff -- my budget was very limited. And the end result was at most quirky, not so much shocking or attention-getting.
I may have been guilty of "not like other girls," but I remember my attitude being more equal-opportunity "not like my very ordinary peers" in my dress and musical tastes and political interests. But again, all kind of a milder version, only somewhat off the beaten path. A alt-scene gatekeeper might have called me a poseur, but I was very sincerely so!
i'd say YES. the movie "detroit rock city" comes to mind, for some reason
The tik tok gatekeeping of 20 somethings is weird (and kinda cringey) as Alternative encompasses various subcultures under the music scene umbrella. It's not like saying you're a part of a specific subculture. You like a lil bit of this and that and find inpiration from different places. I'd say you were Alternative. To me a person who just likes the aesthetic because they feel it fits who they are is still alternative.
I think there's a really powerful message in the difference between adopting a (sub)culture and fitting yourself into it, versus adopting a subculture and making it your own.
It's actually kinda stupid to perpetuate the message that you can't take a little pride in your own individuality and uniqueness, a little bit of "not like the others" is pretty healthy. We should just be wary that it doesn't devolve into feeling better than others for not having the same individuality, or worse, for following trends blindly; a feeling that could ultimately become a strong us-vs-them thought pattern.
In this sense alt is really just the name for a recent fashion trend that, while having it's roots there, has actually nothing to do at all with alt subculture. The gatekeeping that's being done on the fashion side of the word doesn't even apply to the cultural side of it, and with that what we call alt fashion now, excludes all other culturally alternative fashion styles like your cheap, basic, but quirky thrifted outfits.
I am 47 and was and still am at heart a grunge girl. I feel like style used to follow music more than it does these days. Not it follows social media trends.
I absolutely love this video. Thank you for putting it all together!! So, I've been dressing alternatively for around 15 years and watching the resurgence of alt fashion on TikTok has been very interesting to me. I grew up during a time where there weren't a lot of alternative communities. It was mostly boiled down to goth and emo (which had their own subcategories and influences).
One thing I noticed was the gatekeeping that came from the communities, especially goth communities. People were dressing "goth" because of artists like Korn and Marilyn Manson and the goths HATED it, as they were far removed from their roots in the late 70's and early 80's. They despised emo kids because people kept confusing them from the goths, and quite frankly the emo kids were too young to understand the roots of alternative fashion. Interestingly, the goths were fighting within their own subculture about whether the music or fashion were more important. It was strange, watching the goths absolutely explode with rage during that time. I remember when pastel goth became a thing on Tumblr and they had a mental breakdown about that lol
It's okay though, there was gatekeeping within the emo communities as well. I was a part of a forum once where they aggressively ranted about what was "real" emo music. They HATED MCR and pop punk bands, only considering bands like The Get Up Kids and Bright Eyes as authentic Emo Music™. They also didn't consider themselves to be "emo", as the MUSIC GENRE is considered emo, but the fashion is considered scene. Again, alternative groups love to fight within their own communities about what is AUTHENTIC and what is INCORRECT. At this point it's sort of inevitable.
I think the importance of an alternative subculture's roots stem from systemic oppression and the music that removed itself from mainstream culture. BUT, alt communities have a big appeal to them and aspects of them will come and go, especially when it comes to fashion. People also forget that alternative subcultures are communities and should be a bit more gentle on each other.
Anyway, there was like.... an 8 year period where no one dressed alternatively. The communities were still there but became sparse. I went to the mall and I was sad because no one experimented with fashion, or at least had fun with it. Then Billie Eilish and TikTok came and the fashion exploded. Some subcultures may dislike the resurgence of this era, but think about how alternative communities saw new and evolving communities back in the day. Alt communities don't like newness, but it's the newness that keeps it from dying. Allow young people to learn about these communities so they can be a part of its continuation and growth.
Sorry about writing a novel. I’m just really happy that alternative fashion is back. I don’t know any teens right now but whenever I see a class field trip, I see a sea of studded belts, spikes, blue hair, and plaid. I just love seeing it. It makes me want to express myself openly again.
Beautifully put! I especially love how you mentioned that "alt communities don't like newness, but it's the newness that keeps it from dying". Trends (fashion, especially) and subcultures will inevitably evolve as time goes on, and may even form sub-groups within themselves; and it just feels so unproductive to antagonize others for not being there since the beginning or for appreciating the newer aspects of the culture. Sharing the history of your community is great, and should be encouraged to keep its legacy alive, but it's sad to see people resort to infighting.
Anyway, I remember online discussions/arguments between what was "scene" and what was "emo" back in the day, haha. All I knew then was that I loved both styles (though sadly didn't have the budget to look like the poster kids for them on Google 😩) I also really enjoy kids flaunting the resurgence of these styles today, they look awesome.
@@ana-isabel Yessssss I fully agree!! It's so nice seeing people that are open within the community. Society looks down on us already, so why should we look down on each other???
Honestly the term alternative to me is so surface level. When I think of someone as alternative, I think they're someone who just looks the part but doesn't actually participate in a subculture or are passionate about the music. Some of them will literally take that look and then talk shit on the music which is absolutely stupid to me. Like I am a metalhead and a goth and i dress how I do because of the music I listen to, the subcultures I am a part of, the community I partake in, the mindset I have- it's so much more than a look and it's so annoying "alt" has been literally commercialised, sexualised for pr0n, and watered down to be more palatable for people. Kinda sucks to see subcultures so deep in meaning and beauty be shat all over for the sake of "aesthetic"
hmm... you have a good point. personally im a metalhead but i dont feel the need to embrace the aesthetic (except black. black is the best color) i guess many of those who get into "alt" cultures today do it from the visual instead of the auditory way...
1:01 One does not simply escape their scene/ emo phase. Great vid btw - loving everything from this channel so far
Yup, still on the style at 27 and counting 😅 And I appreciate that - thank you!
I still look back at how different I am now, more than 10 years later. I think many of us felt better leaving the negativity of that community. I even became a hardcore trad over the years as compared to the flighty beliefs of my teens. I'm better for it.
As someone smart (Angela Benedict (YT Channel)) once said - Trends Will Die But Goth Is Forever
She explains the topic about trend vs actual goth. Call it gate keeping, but there's a valid reason she makes and points out.
And she's not wrong. Let's see if this "E-Girl" thing is around in 2025 or if a new trend pops up.
Just gonna expand on some things about goth for anyone curious-
1. While a fascination with the darkness and mortality and the badass fashion are often part of "goth territory", the main requirement to be goth is to enjoy the music (as it's a music based subculture. Being a goth who's "not into the music" is sort of like saying you're a metalhead but don't listen to metal), which is essentially punk's gloomier cousin. Early goth looks often embodied punk's DIY/thrifted ethos (and are really cool! I thrift a lot of my looks). I'd personally define "being a goth" as enjoyment of the music + participation in the culture (such as sharing music with goth friends, going to clubs or events, concerts, etc), though some consider enjoyment of the genre to be the *only* qualifier. Either way, the music is extremely vital to the scene, and the fashion evolved from both the music and the earlier stylings of punks. I wouldn't consider fashion to be a requirement tbh- if you watch music videos by The Cure and SATB you'll notice a lot of them have outfits with some pretty "ungoth" colors, like Siouxsie's bright yellow outfit in Spellbound. Fashion-based gatekeeping sucks and goes against the punk origins of the subculture. You don't have to wear 5 layers of fancy black clothes every day with fully teased hair and perfect Siouxsie-style eyeliner and own expensive Demonias to be a "real goth". A lot of us just really REALLY like to do those things ;P (but winklepickers >>> demonias imo)
2. Marilyn Manson isn't goth (though you were right to bring up his relevance to goths getting blamed for columbine, as he was often confused for a goth artist by the mainstream at the time, and iirc the shooters were manson fans). Examples of goth bands are The Cure, Bauhaus, the Sisters of Mercy, Siouxsie and the Banshees, etc, and characteristic features of the genre are an emphasis on bass, "jangly" guitar, emotional lyrics (not necessarily sadness, but certainly passionate). There are also subgenres of goth (which itself is a subgenre of postpunk, which is a subgenre of punk, which is a subgenre of rock.... yeah there's layers O_O) like darkwave (emphasis on synths- an example of darkwave is Lebanon Hanover), deathrock (goth but harder-edged, iirc this scene evolved in California (whereas "trad" goth rock evolved in the UK)- examples include Skeletal Family, 45 Grave and Cinema Strange), ethereal wave (popular in the 90s, often with operatic female vocalists and my personal favorite, some ethereal wave bands include Faith and the Muse, Love Spirals Downwards, Dead Can Dance and my underrated fav This Ascension. I also wouldn't necessarily call them a "goth band" but ethereal wave fans usually are really into Cocteau Twins lol) and more (yes, really).
3. I wouldn't call alternative one single subculture, but an umbrella term to describe multiple.
4. I think people can be SERIOUSLY overboard about gatekeeping (people who do surprise music pop quizzes are total assholes) and I think it's fine to wear goth fashion if you're not into the music (that's what the term "darkly inclined" is for!) but I do still think you should be into goth music to be considered goth. A lot of places the subcultures are formed around are music based (again, clubs and concerts). And a lot of us will be down to rec bands we like! Or you can look up goth playlists online, they're not hard to find. And if you're not into it, that's perfectly fine and you can still wear whatever you want.
tl;dr goth is a subculture with a super interesting history behind it and i thought i might as well expand on what was said here :)
Having been from a traditional Asian upbringing it was definitely an interesting time trying to embrace the style and aesthetic (the parents didnt understand 😅) so it's just so nice to see it embraced a lot more online from so many creators especially POCs. Another amazing video Ana! 🖤🖤🖤
Thank you!! And omg, I relate to the Asian upbringing thing haha - my family back in Philippines always have their eyebrows raised whenever I rock up in my ootds 😅
@@ana-isabel They definetely got used to the jejemon days of early 2000s xD
@@bmona7550 ahahah naww just typically more conservative 😂 ya know how pinoy families beee
It's refreshing to see black and poc alt folks online. It was really lonesome in the early 2000s for us.
Im so happy you mentioned the supposed standards within the alt-fashion comunity of being faire, thin, curvy, caucasian in general and as a very curvy heavy girl for the longest time I had a hard time finding clothes in that subgenre, that fit me. I cant shop in shops that sell kawaii/japanese popfashion and a lot of vintage/alt stores don't sell my sizes except killstar and punkrave (Dollskill is unrecommendable there is a weird bias to give the good looking stuff only to the skinny). I feel incredibly self aware and insecure knowing that im already unattractive in the eyes of most, me now bringing it to alt too, where everyone thinks of Ramona and other skinny girls, I feel embarassed for being who I am. I have medical issues and loosing weight is very hard but im working on it. I just wanna belong just like any other girl that doesn't fit that popularized mold.
i was big into punk late 70's / early 80's and yes it's true i had dudes that wanted to fight me cuz' i had the wrong band on my shirt. but either way i knew even then back in teens that it was just a matter of time til' it got commercalized / normalized if for no other reason than it's in the end quite simply great music and cool fashion. period. i can say, too, with full authority that even non alternative people are wearing more black now than ever i was at the doctor here recent and the doctors and nurses were all wearing black scrubs.
and yeah i can't pretend it doesn't irritate me that teenagers wear band shirts that they're not even a fan of and you have all kinds of artistes that affect punk / goth / metal esthetics just because it's popular right
now and all kinds of other "posers" but, in the end, it was all inevitable. this is stark human nature once sufficient technology exists to support. fahsions change, hairstyles change, technologies change human nature does not.
my only real issue stems from the fact that while subculture tied fashion is becoming accepted, the views and aspects of said subcultures are overlooked. I mean there are always people like that, but now that its a more popular thing people that dont belong join in on the "fashion". what i mean of couse is you CANT be alternative, counterculture, if you are racist/homophobic/transphobic/sexist. Doesn't matter if you are new or have been into alt stuff for years. It is not very counter cuture of you. You are just playing dress up, kindly exit the communities you are invading and are not welcome in. I won't bitch about goth people not at all lsitening to goth music, etc. Is it goth? Honestly I have more pressing things to care about. But being a bigot sure as hell isnt goth. This is mainly @ people that bullied my friends for being queer and edgy and now dress up like we did. Sure you are more accepting of the look. You are still homophobic tho
ESPECIALLY when most of these communities were largely built by, if not founded, by POC, and the other people you bully online
I view the rise of alt culture to the mainstream as a positive. It's great to see more and more people feeling free to express themselves whether it be cause they're into the style for a moment in time or have been doing it for years
I would argue that this boom in "alt" fashion being trendy is coming to an end at the moment. there are multiple trends going on now and in the past few months of people "de-emoing" (none of them were ever truly emo in the first place but) and making fun of their past selves for dressing alternatively. And i'll go a step further to argue that alt fashion was never actually all that trendy in the real world--only online. it was certainly trendier than it was before, but not to the extent that everyone assumes. Since maybe 2019 when you turned on tiktok, you'd be bombarded with videos in which almost everyone is alt. and since social interaction has been limited on and off for the past two years, people have taken to assuming more and more that what they see online represents what's going on in society at large. however, seeing someone alternative (even in a huge liberal city) was still a pretty rare occurrence when you go outside, unless you go to an art college. the amount of alternative people have increased, but not as much as we might think. since the internet is so vast and allows for people with one style to be heavily concentrated in some parts of the internet, people tend to forget that the people they see online are spread out across and diluted by billions of other people, across different countries, or even continents. in reality, the ratio of "basic" to alternative people is still probably 500 to 1 (generously) in areas that have larger alternative populations, and much smaller in conservative areas. there is nothing wrong with being basic by the way--being yourself doesn't mean you have to be alt! your way of being yourself could totally be to dress simply. However, although the amount of alt people when compared to basic people is not as large as tiktok leads us to believe, tolerance for alternative people has definitely increased a LOT (although sadly that is starting to revert back as well a bit). i have been complimented on my clothes much more lately, and had less people laugh or bark or take photos of me even though it still happens. granted, this may be because i live in seattle and could be worse for people in smaller cities
Oh I agree, I wouldn't say "alt" clothes are popular to the same extent as, say, the styles repped by Uniqlo - otherwise we probably wouldn't consider them "alt". But they've definitely gained momentum in the past few years and are a lot more "mainstream" and accepted than they've been in the past (likely with the help of social media too, even if their popularity in online spaces aren't an exact mirror to the real world). I'm glad you've got more people appreciating your style these days btw!
tbh the only thing that annoys me in current alternative styles is the claiming of a subculture you're not a part of. like, don't call yourself goth or emo or punk or whatever if you're not truly a part of them + wearing fashion from these specific styles when you know nothing of the music is kind of iffy to me, because it's like wearing a shirt of a band that you don't listen to, but it's just something i wouldn't do personally
with all that being said, i think the treatment of alt kids is unfair. a lot of them do have their aesthetics built around new niche music that comes out (i don't remember the names of the genres since it's not something i'm interested in, but i do know they exist hah) and even if they're not, they do have their own look that's distinct from other alternative subcultures like those damned bangs that cover a half of their faces (/j/lh) or sanrio accessories.
what is happening to them right now, reminds me a lot about what was happening to grunge and the emos, back when they appeared. they weren't considered alternative at all, and people were pretty rude to them if they called themselves that name, but after some time they got accepted into the community and i hope that will happen to these kids too
I'm alt, and I feel like the alt community often expects people to be dressed up ALL THE TIME. I love fashion and dressing up, it's so fun and it makes me feel great, but why can't I wear my flowery sweater on a cold day or wear my pink shoes sometimes? Maybe it's just the people in my area, but it is a little exhausting to be giving 100% effort all of the time. Don't get me wrong, I love it all, but we can relax for a few seconds lol XD
I was of the ostracized, bullied, laughed at, Teachers telling me I will be worthless as an adult, getting in fist fights having to stand up for myself, etc etc because I was and still am in the metal community. I got into death, doom, stoner, speed metal just as it was becoming unpopular in the early to mid nineties when grunge and rap was rising up. I say fuck everything and anyone, do and be who you are and tell whomever to piss off when they say something to ya. I had mixed emotions when metal got popular a while back and when the whole chopper scene blew up around 1999 to 2005 I couldnt believe it was now ok to be me. I sure as hell have tried to enjoy it though cause I know it will all go dark again. Then when all the beards have been shaven, hair cut off, tattoos removed, and Yanni replaces Mortician on the record player, I’ll be there ready to piss people off once again! 😉 This video was an excellent watch and thank you for putting it together🤘🏻
It sucks that you had to go through any of that; it boggles my mind how cruel people can be towards things they simply don't understand. But more power to you staying true to what you love, keep inspiring us 🔥 (and glad you enjoyed the video!)
This video is decent overall, but it’s pretty clear you’re not goth, because your tracking it back to gothic architecture is ultimately not correct. The term “gothic” comes from a few different interviews by ,and in-jokes related to, post-punk musicians. People who aren’t involved in the subculture don’t get that. I’m not gonna come in here and gatekeep it via the music (although the music is very important to the subculture, and the fashion aesthetic comes from the subculture) but I am going to point out that most people who talk about this get it wrong because they don’t know enough about the subculture itself. A lot of the use of religious imagery in goth was originally done in a transgressive way.
Well there's that, and that she doesn't have the attitude of a goth, she has the attitude of a cheer girl.
So what is the attitude of a goth lol?
AHHH thank you for mentioning other types of alt fashion that isn't just dark colors like alt jfashions (japanese lolita)! And also thank you for shouting out My Violet! The fairy kei community really loves the inclusive sizes and creativity that store provides 🥰 (not that they only provide styles fairy kei wearers can only wear) I'm so happy that My Violet is so popular!
Honestly I think every popular subject was once first alternative - nothing starts big, it all has to grow from something small.
If it seems to be immediately popular, we're just looking at too recent of a time frame to understand.
Good point! Strange how novelty is often the prime driver of both a subject's initial backlash _and_ its eventual popularity.
y'all goth isn't just fashion the base of goth is goth music, you cannot be goth without listening to the music
And the music is as easy as ever to check out in the modern times thanks to TH-cam and Discogs compared to the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s where you had to scour through record stores or know someone who listened to the music and didn't mind sharing it with you.
Literally how I feel with “grunge” looks and metal “vibes”. No you aren’t “grungy”. Go listen to the important music and then understand why. If that’s gatekeeping then oh well lol. Music is so important to the majority of us, specially when you’re laughed at as a kid bc you don’t know popular current music not like it.
I have never been one to want to dress like any of the alt-styles, but I have always been a fan of the scene and unfortunately I have been one to gatekeep that scene in the past. I don't understand why I did it nor did I understand that everyone is allowed to like what they want at that time. This being said, I have never felt that I embodied the scene, just liked it from an outsider perspective. Thank you for this video, I do enjoy seeing your point of view on these topics.
As someone who was one to gatekeep back then too, I think it was primarily a way to try and "redeem" myself for being put down in the past for the things I liked. It allowed me to build up a flimsy superiority complex based on insecurity. I think as I learned to just be comfortable with what I liked and not care as much about the validation of others, I eventually learned to also just let others enjoy what they do (and that toxic mindsets like mine were what bred my insecurities in the first place).
And thank *you* for watching, glad you enjoyed the vid! 😊
What do you mean "You don't understand" why? Have you looked at the news lately? THAT'S why you fucking gatekeep your hobbies.
As a teenage boy in the late-1990s (I'm almost 44 now), I personally always noticed and preferred "alt girls" because it signaled to me that they were intelligent, creative, and most importantly they had the willpower to be a little different and to think for themselves. (I married one, incidentally, and we have a beautiful child together).
I think there's always going to be a "cultural safety valve" group of some kind (whatever exactly it's called) for people who just feel a little different -- maybe a little deeper and moodier -- than the mainstream, but who still want to belong to something.
I may dislike the rise of alt stuff within groups that would bully alt people but I also rejoice in the fact that I know they're richer than me so when they eventually hop onto another trend all that shit will get donated and will be more accessible
goth gf meme is one of the many embarrassing things that came out of the dark depths of Twitter
Yea, it grosses me out sm lol
The fetishisation turns me off so bad from trying to dress how i want to, even though i shouldnt
Why ? It seems like men cannot say they find styles sexy anymore...
"You find women in goth clothing sexy?" FETISHIZING
"You find tomboy women sexy?" FETISHIZING
It has really gotten stupid
Moreover goth gf is more "haha tongue in cheekj" than anything
@@tonylex3760 At 14:45 she explains a little bit why goth girls may feel uncomfortable. Yes it's "tongue in cheeks" and "just a joke" but it won't change the fact that some people don't like it 🤷♀️ (probably because it also sexualize them and make them look "perfect" like the manic pixe girl, even thought those goth girls didn't want to be sexualized or seen as "perfect").
I think you took it too much to heart, at the end of the day it's their feelings (but obviously some goth girls don't mind and may even joke about it themselves).
did it really come from twitter though? I remember that meme being around for a really long time
New Ana Isabel video essay just dropped, LETS GOOOOO!!!!
Loving the video so far! I never felt cool enough to try the alt-girl look 😂 But you definitely pull it off! -Stef.
Aww haha thanks Stef! 🙏 I did see a small glimpse of your inner alt girl come out in our vampire vid 😌
I first started getting into punk/alternative/goth music in about 1986. I went to high school in the late 80's wearing skull buckle pikes, a lot of black clothing and heavy black eyeliner. To this day I still listen to the music. I think what is happening right now is that a lot of kids think that goth/punk is all about the image, and that's it. They try on different 'trends' so frequently that they stand for nothing besides being fashion victims. I think it's sad as hell. It used to be that you got into the music first, but these days it's the clothing first and they may never get into the music. I find such people boring as hell. Oh wow, you did your make-up just like Siouxise, how original of you! The modern goth subculture sprung from the music, it has never been a 'state of mind'.
Can we make a distinction between Goth and Gothic?! I’m not goth. I enjoy some goth music but I consider myself “gothic”: as in a person who enjoys gothic literature, horror, darkness, ravens, black, romanticism, cathedrals, witches, spiderwebs, Tim Burton, macabre, death and the like.
Thank you. So glad to see more people knowing the difference between Goth and Gothic and that they aren't one in the same.
Loved the video, I just wanted to mention that even though some alt subcultures are accepted online like in TikTok, they can still be outcast and made fun of. I know in my school to avoid bullying I am always careful to toe the threshold between ‘socially acceptable alt’ and more goth or more complete or “extreme” looks, the same going for looking too ‘cat girl’ or ‘kawaii’ etc
Oh, for sure. I do think there's still a line in the real world between the mainstream, commercially-accepted "alt" we see popularized by retail stores and the ones a little more out there. I appreciate both, though I think we'll always have the latter as fashion continues to push boundaries. That said, it sucks these people often deal with judgement and ridicule before their trends eventually become more normalised and society moves on to picking on the next new thing. (Glad you liked the video, btw!)
Really enjoyed this one, thank you. For all the rage and pixels that are wasted (or not) on who’s “appropriating” who’s thing and who’s “gatekeeping” someone else, so often I can’t help but feel like we could all just do with a bit more empathy. This is all a giant mess and most people are really just trying to navigate it the best they know how.
Though I am not in your demographic (I'm in my seventies ) My interests are cultural/social anthropology and fashion and how they overlap. This was by far the most informative video. It was articulate, unbiased and accompanied by tons of relevant images. You covered the fashion the advertising and even the related psychology. A well researched and nuanced effort! Thanks. That was a lot of work and it shows.
Thank you so much! This was admittedly quite a rich topic to cover and there's so much more I didn't get to touch upon (probably for a follow-up video, who knows?) but I'm glad you enjoyed and found it informative! :)
Another well produced and thought through essay Ana. Having lived through several Alt periods from Punk, New Wave, to Grunge and what ever now is, I've seen lots of those where there were people who lived the lifestyle and those that just lived the style. The biggest change between those Alt categories of the 70's, 80's and 90's to now is how fast Alt goes mainstream and becomes commercialized. The Grunge scene loudly lamented the move of Alt rock bands to mainstream and sell out status. Maybe the most interesting thing about now is that there are dozens of simultaneous Alt styles/lifestyles and not one global Alt thing. I actually like the fragmentation so that everyone can have their own Alt lifestyle that is theirs alone. Wait, that's just individuality. Awesome. 👍👍
Your videos are so interesting and informative! I'm someone who has often been on the periphery of different groups, but I've never really felt like I was really a part of one myself, so I always find it interesting to see how sub-cultures evolve as people seek community and camaraderie while also trying to find their own individuality. Thank you for another great watch!
I am continually impressed at how thorough and articulate your content is. I can tell the work has been put in, super appreciated. You deserve all the numbers. Subbed
One thing that bothered me about the alt trend is that almost everyone a part of it was white. I'm a queer Asian American male, shortened as Gaysian. Most Gaysians I know were into the alt person trend, because it allows us to express ourselves in a manner that takes elements from our ethnic cultures, elements from queer cultures, and fuse them into something our own. Things we did also happened to intersect with alt girls as well. One thing that felt really weird was that things I can contribute were accepted. Everything was enthusiastically accepted.... except for me. This extends to Sapphic POCs as well. It felt like the LGBT+ sphere all over again, where it was dominated by white gays, but in this case, it was straight white women. And once again, queer people become accessories to straight white girls.
How old are you ?
Wait im confused why is it a problem that most these ppl were white? Theres black people and asians and stuff... Its just not everyone likes the look. I dont think anyone at all says that other races cant be a specific subculture at all. I think ppl just say that. I dont know this for sure but i personally believe that they just dont really like it that much on them they have their own cultures and looks they like more. (Like the jogger outfit and hoop earring thing)
@@worry-bunny7328 this literally makes no sense to me...since the black communit and Asian communities partake in thei own form of alternative fashion some are even founders
@@leavemeal0ne378 yeah its just some of em dont wanma be goth and stuff so i dont see why its a problem that most alt people are white its not like we dont let tne.
@@leavemeal0ne378 them*
Finding yourself is one of the hardest things in life.
My experience, Punks were REAL quick to call out people for being posers back in the 90s-00s
Honestly, I didn't have the wherewithal back then to consider what they were doing to the other's psyche.
It took me until 23 before someone said "Hey man, you're into goth-industrial, lets go to a party, you can meet people"
To finally find others of whom lived through strife, sadness, and life hitting like a semi-truck,
That some express themselves in a way to push back others with shallow thoughts due to their appearance,
To give time of day to people who see the individual inside of them, not the clothing on their back and cyberfalls in their hair.
There needs to be leeway of others trying out new things, looking for themselves in life.
This doesn't help the stereotypes of the emotional damaged goth,
But hey, doesn't seem too far off from reality in my experience, and my own issues throughout life.
Thanks kindly for the video by the way, it was helpful; social drama around co-opting subcultures is a flippant use of time.
I was in a bit of pain, ate a gummy and it was a little stronger than usual, but glad I did because I went super random with my video choices today, and this was an excellent video, that made my brain go off on other lil tangential issues, like labeling (utility vs the potentiality for gatekeeping in any community) and so many more, thanks for being thorough and thought provoking!
eeeeppp so happy to see rabbit in the video! thank you for showing them as an alt examble!
I have always had a bit of an identity crisis as someone who is part of a smaller alternative music scene that is not massively recognized like goth, metal, punk, grunge. Hardcore has its own subculture but does not extend outside of shows and localized communities. It is difficult to see the newer styles of alternative fashion that the smaller genres of music like hardcore, metalcore, pop punk helped create become mashed into the goth, metal, punk and all be reduced to just being called "alt". It feels like the chance for younger genres to establish their own subcultures is gone entirely.
I am older and have been in the "alt" community since middle school and I'm almost 30 now. I dont know about others but I am happy to see others explore their identities, ESPECIALLY the younger generation. I know many millenials who were alt but couldn't outwardly express it because it was unsafe for them. Yes it sucked at times with bullying and constantly justifying your interests, but now that it is more normalized it has so many positive attributes! For example more people are experienceing the alternative music scene. However, it bums me out to see young people think they "can't afford" to dress alternative when alternative fashion was breed from DIY, secondhand finds, and being creative with what you had. The parasitic nature of corporations has bastardized the alternative fashion scene in my opinion.
@@thotslayer9914 No, I have never actually used discord but I am interested.
@@thotslayer9914
1. I'm happily married
2. I am only interested in women.
3.. TH-cam is not a dating platform, I suggest trying an app geared towards finding relationships. Or getting out in your community and participating in social events.
Amazinnnggg video!! You said it all perfectly!
Wow. I did not expect to see one of my tiktoks in your video. Wow. Loved the video
It’s hard to find local alt kids in my town since it’s a small town in Alabama and the only time I ever saw someone dress like me was at the mall an hour away. I used to live in Nebraska and my highschool had a handful of alternative fashion kids. I actually made friends with a goth kid at our local carnival and I love their style so much
i love alt fashion but i'll never wear the stuff myself 'cause i hate the unwanted attention, mostly from creepy men who think we dress that way for them. women who dress alt have to have a certain degree of being a badass just to put up with it.
That's me. I used to be heavily into Rockabilly as a teen/early 20s and that alone came with enough creepy men to make me stop dressing like that. "Darker" alt looks tend to get even nastier comments.
I'm so sorry! I defend myself from street harassment with pepper spray. After my first year of transition, men left me alone. I'm trans since 2006 and I've been a goth since 2004.
@@darlalathan6143 It's good to hear you have been having a better experience since then! I've got pepper spray at all times, too, I can't even imagine ever leaving the house without it. Men have it so easy 😑
The fetishization of certain aspects is really bad. When I was 18, I made myself a Hatsune Miku cosplay of a particular outfit I'd never seen anyone make before. I was very proud of it, and won tickets to a concert from entering it in a contest. It had a gothic lolita style (module called Gothic Dress on the Project Diva games), and the comments I got online made me uncomfortable as it was something I did to try that style and show off my sewing skills, not get sexualized, or have older men ask me to make it sexier...
That's one reason I never started wearing certain things in my day to day life, especially as I'm in an area where it's illegal to carry self defence tools, and I'm not the loudest and strongest personality.
@@winterx2348 Imagine being this sexist in 2022, then wondering why sexism still exists.
awesome video as per usual 🙂 dig your analysis and the questions you pose
love the cosplay too
6:45 That hat drop was akin to a mic drop. Love that you left it in. 😂
I'm middle aged, and I remember a time before the MCU when being a comic nerd meant having an encyclopedic knowledge of 75 years of comic history, and there would be long discussions about who-can-beat-whom complete with citations for feats, power levels, and other esoterica. Today, if I discuss anything but the MCU or animoo in places like TH-cam or Reddit, it's crickets or "OK Boomer" downvotes into oblivion. I think a certain level of gatekeeping is warranted or your chosen hobby gets so overwhelmed with surface level pop culture that it becomes impossible for people with deep levels of interest to even find each other any more.
As witness this comment, which I know from experience will vanish without a trace because it's longer than one sentence and isn't a blandly uncontroversial take.
That is the curse of any niche subculture. You spend decades being mocked for bizarre interest and behaviour, longing for a bit of mainstream recognition. Then when the subculture actually gains serious popularity the scene is drowned in a grey tide of newcomers who were attracted for the most surface level reasons, who quickly end up dominating the scene simply by outnumbering the old timers many times over. To the point that many old timers feel a need to take refuge from their own supposed community. Then some day the grey tide recedes and moves onto the next trends, leaving behind a handful of fresh actual enthusiast around which the community can gradually be rebuilt in a modernized form.
@@fnorgen Alas, the MCU is the most profitable entertainment franchise in all of history. It's not going away any time soon.
I can relate to the struggle, got to feel this kind of commercialization in P&p Tabletops over the last few years. But, intentionally or not, this comment just makes you look like a very bitter person with a superiority complex. It’s a natural development that when something gets popular more people with different levels of interest and different interpretations get into it. Last I checked nobody is forcing you to participate in the MCU if you aren’t interested in that snoozefest, so give the same courtesy to the people that enjoy it. If I don‘t enjoy the new popular D&d edition even though like 99% of the local groups use it I don‘t try to ruin their enjoyment, I simply play with other people. Unless you act the same way irl as this comment paints you it shouldn’t be a problem to find people with similar interests.
I love the style of your videos Ana :)
Thank you 😊
This just showed up in my feed. I found the information and presentation fascinating, very well put together. I think I will check out your other content. Thank you.
Your videos are always so good!
what an interesting video! I love to hear what alt means to other people. I have always gravitated towards alt fashion and counter culture but have been inspired by so many things through the years (art students, anime, kpop, countless subcultures like grunge, ‘90s kids aesthetics.., etc.) that I never really know what to call my style so I just usually say alt fashion shrug.
personally, I don’t mind the main stream-ness of it. fashion is a form of self expression and it’s great that it is becoming more accessible to find clothes, to not have to worry about too many weird looks or comments on how I look. I would dress this way anyway, but now I don’t have to have major anxiety about how people will react before leaving the house. and I think it’s great that younger generations get to experiment more with their styles, I only wish I had the same freedom when I was younger - which is why I don’t understand gatekeeping at all. I get that there were people abused and ridiculed for belonging to a subculture but why take that frustration out on the newer generation who are trying to find their way?
As someone who's also drawn to "alt" fashion I relate to the whole being inspired and experimenting with all its different sub-styles (though I do gravitate more towards the emo/y2k stuff hahaa); it's a ton of fun.
The mainstreamness definitely isn't without its criticisms (mostly related to the ethics of fast fashion and how it clashes with the meaning of "alt") but hey, I'm glad these styles have become a lot more accessible to the younger gen too, especially since looking back - finding these clothes was *such* a challenge in my younger years and I always wound up with outfits that I couldn't truly feel confident in. This form of self-expression becoming more accepted is also great to see, even if it's not _as_ embraced in real life as the internet makes it out to be - just means more kids (and people in general) can be free to explore who they are with a little less reactive pushback. So yeah, I don't quite understand taking out one's negative experiences on the subculture's newcomers either. :/
Some people just like edgy stuff for the sake of liking edgy stuff. We don't need to have Superman origins to be valid enough to like it.
Great video! I was both surprised and happy to see you include jfashion styles and clips in this video, because they are often forgotten in discussions of alternative fashion, despite them being so heavily influential.
6:50 I was genuinely confused until I realized your hat had fallen off 😂 really interesting deep dive into aesthetics and their cultural underpinnings.
Another fascinating premise that once again very much strikes my fancy as I was an emo/ goth kid in my teens and REALLY wish I didn't give away my Tripp pants in my early 20s. Everyone heard me coming before they saw me with all my chains 🤣 I still love the aesthetic very much. Also I love your outfit, and knew it was Raven as soon as you appeared on screen.
GOD I love your content!
Although, as with most things you don't have to fit an exact criteria that someone or even many people think is the standard for something you like to consider yourself/ be included in that category. I considered myself goth but people called me/ my friends emo, which I hated at the time (people who didn't understand or disliked alternative style used it as a slanderous umbrella term at the time). My comment wasn't specific because you don't have to hold yourself to anyone's standard, isn't this subculture about nonconformity and subverting the norm? As well as open mindedness? I deleted 2 comments I left on this video because this morning I woke up and the first thing I read was being accused of leaving a misogynist comment which really pissed me off because I'm a VERY open minded person, but I didn't want to start a heated argument in the comments of one of my favorite content creators. Upon reflection maybe what I said didn't sound so great to some people and to anyone who read that and was offended I apologize. But to me, I thought it was quite obvious I was coming from a place of genuine kindness and positivity. And of the like 2 paragraphs I left combined between all my comments(another reason I deleted 2, thought maybe it was too much) the ONLY thing that person saw was negativity and none of the nice things I was saying to praise Ana and her work. I wish I wouldn't have deleted that now, but alas I was tired and it's too late. Anyway that means that that person is just as guilty of the narrow mindedness they misconstrued from and readily accused of me. This is exactly the kind of thing this video and many of Ana's videos discuss.
Hey there! I didn't get to see your comments - and now I'm curious, tbh - but I'm really sorry to hear that, and just wanted to say that your kind words have made my day and I really appreciate your support! 😊 Glad you enjoyed the video and I wish I had the height to pull off Tripp pants myself hahaha (I'm very petite and and baggier pants tend to swallow up my build lol)
@Trinity M, it's true emo and goth have their differences as well as their overlaps. I never meant to imply that goth is simply just an aesthetic, but the fashion style is one of its more well-known aspects - which I mainly wanted to focus on for the video.
@@ana-isabel I can't remember the exact wording at this point, but the initial point of the latter comment was telling you that I showed your video to my girlfriend, and she loved you too! (Platonically don't worry lol) then I had said that I loved what an expansive vocabulary you have, how much research goes into the subject matter, and(this was the controversial part) I said that you're pretty but don't come off as an attention whore. Maybe I should've said instead that you don't seem to be clout seeking, and again in retrospect of one of your cosplay videos, there's nothing wrong with people who are. I just meant it as a compliment to you. Also I'm super happy that I made your day😊
Also @Trinity M sorry if that seemed a little explodey or over the top as a response. Ive been experiencing a lot of loss recently and my best friend/ big brother just had a near death experience.
Also also @Ana Isabel im actually just about normal height for a dude lol sorry I have too much to say it's kind of rare my favorite youtubers actually respond, besides like 1 other lolz thank yooooou!
@@ana-isabel also watching youtubers with such expansive vocab actually helps me learn new termonologies and really keeps my brain active. I've actually had to look up definitions for several words watching you and a couple other of my favorite youtubers. Ugh! I've got so much more to say, I'm sorry I'm awkward lol. Okay I promise no more comments from me.
About the gatekeeping band shirts, I myself view it as a form of self-expression: for example me wearing my Khanate shirt means "Please talk to me about doom".
Exactly.The common consensus when wearing band shirts aside from being a fan of them was also to signal to others that you're a fan and that it can be used as a way to connect to other fans of the music out in the wild. It had some social connotation to it before wearing band shirts started to become some fashion trend...
Had no idea about thus topic or trend. Very good video 👍👍👍
First video of yours I've see, great video and outfit. Will be watching more!
“My Chemical Relaxer”- that is a really great article title ☺️
Lol the natural makeup thing is so funny because so much time and makeup goes into that look. There's a reason people pay big money for their wedding day make up artists/stylists.
Loved the video as always, brings back the nostalgia of the emo and skater eras
Damn this was a really in-depth look, thank you for this great video
I didn't expect to enjoy the video as much as I did honestly
I’m 30 years old and still dress alternative. I’m so jelly of teens now and how easy it is to buy alt clothes. 🥲😂 Like I couldn’t describe how much bargain bin and garage sale hunting and even customizing my own clothes back in the day. (I still have a lot of my clothes from back then.) 😂 I am happy with how mainstream alternative style is these days. What is life without expression? What is identity without individuality? Life is far to short to be worrying about how and why other people wear their clothes. 🤷🏻♀️ Like damn, if I’m at my son’s school and one of his classmates sees me and decides they want to dress like me, I’d be so happy that how I dress inspired them. 😊
It's awesome to see so many embrace the style too! As for bargain bin and garage sale hunting, these days I actually find it a lot more fun than shopping from more mainstream brands, it's a bit like a treasure hunt and you get to find some really unique vintage pieces 😊
@@ana-isabel Yes! This is lots of fun still but with my kiddos it’s so difficult to find the time 🥲 but it is still something I enjoy doing at least every couple months when I have a moment to really shop around lol 😅
Thankyou for making such great content! 😊❤️
In 2006 I started loving goth rock and darkwave and to some extent also the fashion style (not much as a poor student without a lot of options of where to shop). I didn't know anyone else who liked this music too irl, even though I was sometimes seeing people dressing in a similar style (doesn't necessarily mean anything, it seems a lot of people dress that way and aren't fans of goth music). Then for many years it seemed like the style disappeared completely from the streets, at least where I live. And in the past couple of months I suddely have been seeing gothic looking girls in my city and have been wondering if somehow it is in fashion now?? Not sure how I feel about it. TBH I don't like that modern goth culture is so materialistic and puts a lot of emphasis on the style. While I feel the main thing is the music and I don't feel very comfortable in an extravagant style.
Oh 2006, looks like you got to also see some of the Deathrock revival bands like All Gone Dead, Eat your Makeup, Radio Scarlet, and Blood Dead and Sexy? But either way yeah what you said is true that it seems very rare to come across other darkly-inclined people who listen to goth music. In the 13 years I've lived where I lived, I only seen one person who looked goth and like the music, she was wearing a vest with a Christian Death and Sisters of Mercy patches on it which was a clue-in but beside her, not many else.
As for what you're seeing, it's mainly the whole "E-Girl" trend which was made popular from TikTok and Instagram of these people (mostly girls) who think they're goth because they like to dress edgy while listening to Soundcloud Rap music.
@@KaiDecadence All gone dead is one of the bands I like quite a lot too! And recently I'm also discovering new bands thanks to Spotify. I'm from Central Europe and I guess the goth scene is even more unknown than in Western countries. Also because in the 80's people didn't have many opportunities to get to know about it here (restrictive political regime until 1989). I actually got to know about it only thanks to the internet. Usually darkly dressed people were and are associated with metal or some commercial bands that have dark imagery but nothing in common with the goth rock sound. And until now I didn't know anything about "e-girl"!
@@Melian07 Same! I still remember when I discovered All Gone Dead in 2006 on their VampireFreaks page, "Newspeak (Room 101)" was such a great song and though I didn't know they were considered Goth at the time, I would listen to that and "Orchids In Ruin" so much.
And yeah I got into Goth music as well from the internet, I took my plunge in late 2008/early 2009. And you're right about the 1980s whereas while some of the bands like Siouxsie, Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, The Cure, and The Mission got some attention, the goth genre as a whole didn't get all that much notice outside of the clubs they were playing. Like you weren't hearing about Virgin Prunes, The Birthday Party, Christian Death, and Clan of Xymox on MTV. And this only got worse in the 1990s when goth really got misappropriated as the music went underground and the MTV commercialization was saying bands like Rammstein, Marilyn Manson, Nine Inch Nails, and Orgy were the "new goth" when they weren't. I was surprised to learn that there were a ton of goth bands like Rosetta Stone, The Wake, Children on Stun, Faith & The Muse, and many more that came out in the 90s but were underground and a lot of them didn't get fully discovered until the internet driven 2000s that archived their work which is what was so helpful for people like us who weren't around back then lol.
And glad I could help. The E-Girl / E-Boy trend has been around for a few years now and before then, it was the "Pastel Goth" trend that came from Tumblr which followed a similar ethos. Just people (mostly girls) wearing Japanese "Creepy Cute" fashion thinking they were goth for it while listening to J-Pop, Chiptune, and Pop music.
@@KaiDecadence For me it started with Siouxsie, still my most loved band in goth music, I also bought a few CDs. And I found a lot of bands thanks to the last.fm radio, Faith and the Muse was also one of my first ones. The more popular types of music for "dark kids" didn't have much appeal for me. Similarly like pop music it doesn't have much creativity imo.
@@Melian07 Siouxsie is great though honestly when I was first getting into goth music, besides Siouxsie and The Cure I didn't have the easiest transition into the first wave goth sound because it was so different from what I was listening to at the time which was a lot of alternative rock like Nirvana, Stone Temple Pilots, Garbage, Queen Adreena, and Smashing Pumpkins And it was the 90s Goth bands that helped make my transition into the music a lot easier and with time I grew to appreciate the 80s goth sound too, especially when I got around to more Sisters of Mercy and Fields of the Nephilim.
And it's funny you mention LastFM because that was the very site I used as well to find more goth bands back in 2009! I'll admit that the site isn't perfect, there are plenty of miscategorization there but it was a good place to start back in those days.
As for popular "dark" music in the mainstream, I liked some of it like Evanescence, Nine Inch Nails, and even some Manson but yeah, goth music has a lot more unique sound in comparison.
Great video you covered every single thing I hoped you would have xD I’m a old emo kid ( 27 I like the music and the look and just never grew out of it ) so it’s been so strange to see the public perception of alternative change over time I’m not without my gripes but even I’m aware it’s probably just “your getting old syndrome “ lol in the big picture I think things are so so much better now the alt community has really come a long way imo
High five to both being 27 and still not having grown out of our emo phases :D And yes, the alt community has progressed with both its pros and pitfalls, but on the whole I'm glad a lot more people are exploring the music and are comfortable in expressing themselves in this way!
Just found your channel today, and binged your last few videos. I don't agree with all your takes, but I super appreciate your perspective. Looking forward to more content!
Aw thank you, I appreciate that 🙏 More vids to come!
Well researched and great presentation as always. I really appreciate the match cut at 33:53
Thank you! And omg, I didn't even notice that while editing - what a neat accident 😅
@@ana-isabel You're smarter than you realise xD