The 1 MOA Hoax: How they’ve confused shooters
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Most hunters think a hunting rifle can generally shoot 1 MOA of accuracy, but in this video I show how achieving that tight of precision in a hunting rifle is actually harder than that. In a safe environment at gun range, I challenged hunters to see if they could shoot a 1" group on a target at 100 yards.
A semi long term experiment I would like to see is a "cold bore group". Where you shoot one shot once a day/week at the same target for 5-10 shots. Then you may truly know where your hunting rifle would impact for that one and only shot you get at a game animal.
Check out "Panhandle Precision " Sam Millard did just that. He worked up loads for his 260 remington. One shot per day, in very cold Idaho winter . Sub inch. 130 berger hybrid otm , h4350.
Look up todd hornet's views on cold bore vs clean bore. Temperature is irrelevant.
I literally zeroed my hunting rifle one shot every morning for a week so that i could be absolutely certain that my cold bore shot was spot on. Shot my biggest buck yet at 611 yards. Was it necessary? Probably not. Was the peace of mind worth it? Absolutely lol
@@sportsmanslegacyI wouldn’t go around bragging about shooting deer at 611 yards.
It’s kind of like bragging about how great you are at hunting deer with a .22
To your point, I shoot one of my rifles once at a target per year, and it lands in the same spot every year. I’ve never overlaid them, but wish I had. I trust this one more than any other.
I worked really hard to get my rifle under 1 MOA. And the first deer I shot was just over 20 feet away. That's how life works sometimes. 🙂
I know what that is like. And the best part for me is the long range practice in preparation for antelope and dall sheep and then 75 yards or under.
LOL ain't that the way!!
But now you have rifle squared away for when you need it... I practice out to 700 and have never shot further than 125.
Same. I hunt a place that goes out to 500 yds, and I worked up a 1/2 MOA load to go hunt it so I could take some of the longer shots.
First deer I took with that load stepped out at 80 yds.
In the last 6 seasons I have had 1 step out @ 115 yards 1 @ 75 yards the rest less than 50yards ,😂
Judging by the folks I see at the range 2 weeks before opening day, I'd say the average is 8-10 MOA and when some random shot finally lands in the middle they stop and declare the rifle "sighted in."
Cant disagree
and "sighting in" has nothing to do with the ability to shoot sub-MOA ... you could have them all land within an MOA just not where you're aiming at. if the only goal is to shoot sub-MOA (not that it should be) then they shouldn't be fiddling with the sight adjustments at all, but simply holding at the same spot and firing the whole group
I took an acquaintance to the range at his request to sight in his rifle with him before hunting season. He took a few shots and they were all over the place, within 8 inches at 100 yards, to the high and right, and just peppering the paper. He tried to adjust the scope but it was throwing things even more off on the diagonal. I took a look at his scope and the reticle was visibly canted probably 6 degrees. I told him that we needed to re-mount his scope quick, but he declined. He said it was good enough, and that the deer get within 60 yards anyway, so he will be fine. I was dumbfounded.
@@MiniDevilDF I sure wouldn’t hunt with him
I work at a gun shop. Most shooters I deal with don’t understand how difficult it is to shoot a sub MOA group. Now these are mostly newer shooters and even some are new to reloading. It’s not just the gun, the shooter and ammo bring a lot to the table when it comes to shooting Sub-MOA.
Most of the time, its entirely the shooter and not the gun. Sub MOA is exceedingly difficult to shoot consistently.
@@Animo2006Ammo plays a massive part in the operation. I would add that most of the time *when a shooter makes a mistake* they blame the ammo or gun, when it's just them flinching.
Lol. It’s not hard.
90% shooter
8% ammo
1.5% optics issue of some sort. Improper Set up or defect.
.5% maybe a rifle issue
@@flyingirish31it’s not hard if you practice but ppl don’t ppl shoot the same box of coreloks at deer for 7 years bc that’s as much as they shoot but no MOA is super attainable. I’ve got 4very affordable (sub$600) rifles all of which are .75inches at the end of a cleaning cycle and anywhere from .25 to .3 when perfectly fouled up say 6-150 rounds then they open up a touch. They will shoot MOA absolutely filthy filthy and hot all day any day out to 600 and I’m sure further but that’s as far as I have steel and access to safely shoot
Yes the sub MOA guarantee is sometimes only with Premium ammunition.
I found that achieving sub MOA with a 5 shot group is usually only done with hand loads . There are many variables in accuracy.
Great video
Cheers
Yes, either handloads or trial and error to find the right factory load.
@@dn88s 👍👍
I do it with plain old factory ammo all the time.
@@T-DsGaming i didn’t say it couldn’t be done with plain old factory ammunition.
I apologize!! I should have said it was easier to achieve it with hand loads.
And I’m sure you are consistently getting sun MOA groups standing free hand with iron sights 👍
@@lz3572 I don't know any shooter who hunts or shoots for group size with iron sight and free handed.... All the rifles I own shoot sub moa with factory ammo, most of the time it's the shooters fault for bad groups.
One other thing to take into consideration is that most of these manufacturers have an indoor test range where they can do their accuracy testing, and more often than not that range will have an extremely heavy steel bench with pneumatic or electronic vices that clamp the rifle in place and some sort of mechanical trigger actuator. They do this to remove as many human and environmental variables from the equation as possible, but it also makes it much easier for them to shoot those smaller groups more regularly because those typical variables are now constants. I've also learned from my own testing and rewatching some of the video I've recorded while shooting that something as minor as varying how tightly you pull the rifle back into your shoulder can dramatically affect how the rifle recoils and where the shot goes. Probably 90+% of so-called "fliers" are the result of shooter inconsistency rather than anything to do with the gun or ammo.
I'm glad that someone else pointed out the difference between the accuracy of any individual shooter and mechanical accuracy of a firearm. It goes along with how many times I have had to ask people if they are a more accurate shooter than their rifle is mechanically accurate, which would then be the absolute best accuracy achievable.
Yup. But as the manufacturer, that's their job I guess. It's like Randy Pobst driving a Z06 around Willow Springs for Chevrolet. Shows what the car can do, even though 99% of people would crash and kill themselves trying to achieve the same. The car/gun is solid though!
This right here. The GUN is capable of 1 MOA. Doesn't mean YOU THE SHOOTER are. Also, Ammo is another factor.
Most people don't realize how much parallax error of the scope affects their groups. If you don't know how to center your eye and happen to shift your head even the slightest, you will never line up to the same point every shot.
True. At least on hunting scopes that are non-parallax adjustable. And for these scopes the manufacturers may SAY they are focused parallax free at 100yards but are they? I've done testing and often it is less. I get relative movement of reticle and target doing the "head bob test" with the gun stationary, even at 100 yards. Sometimes as much as an inch. So that's as much as about an MOA error in the scope right there. As you say, good eye alignment through the scope minimizes parallax error but it's an issue.
There's lots of good info out there on parallax error if you can find it. The best comes from benchrest rimfire shooters as parallax and focusing is actually a bigger issue at SHORT ranges not LONGER ranges in a lot of ways.
You're absolutely correct. I witnessed a local gunsmith verify sub-moa on rifle because the owner wanted to check before sending it back. The smith used a laser sighter to re-center the gun in the vice to the exact same point of aim between shots and it actually did hold about 3/4 moa.
Cell ph mounted on scope fixes that
Totally, had a cheaper line Vortex scope that was very difficult and frustrating to the point I had to get rid of it because of this reason.
It's very small at 100 yards (the subject of the video) - like 1/4" worst case for the average hunting scope whereby the eye is off center to the extent that would be ridiculous. So in reality parallax is under 1/8" for the average shooter (the eye is only off center somewhat). See online parallax calculators.
One of the issues, in my opinion, is that people aren’t honest with themselves. Everyone thinks they’re a delta green seal and they can take a cold shot from two miles away and assassinate a hummingbird with a heart shot. Everyone wants to be seen as “that shooter.” But I completely agree with you, very few people can do sub moa consistently. And very few firearms are capable of it, consistently.
This was a great video and helpful with the “guarantee” of manufacturers. Thank you.
I bet its more likely that people dont adjust sights properly perfectly when they start. People are willing to lay there guns on objects so I am sure some people would be geting good accuracy if there guns were shooting right where they aimed. Most people have never heard of barrel harmonics to begin with. They probably dont know they need to pay attention to their shape shifting barrel after 2 shots. Guns really should come with 2 sights so you can adjust one for the cold shot. I bet its the opposite for alot of shooters and some would be really great shots if they did not have trash barrels that move horizontaly or diagonally with heat instead of vertical.
I have a budget precision rifle that I built on a R700 SA that I can shoot to 0.75 MOA at 100 yds for as many shots as is requested.
None of my stock hunting rifles will do it in 5 shots consistently. Best I have is a Browning BAR 30-06 that can usually put 3 in sub 1.00, but will throw a flyer before 5 shots most of the time. The sporting barrel just doesn’t hold up over that many shots in any reasonable timeframe. The clean cold bore shots are always flawless, and it gets worse from there. I could probably get the browning to do it in 5 if I let it cool all the way down between each shot, but I reckon it would take an hour to get through it.
But then I don’t see the need for a stock hunting rifle to be sub MOA. I’ve never had any issues getting the browning to shoot minute of deer chest out to MPBR, and I’m thankful for that light barrel when trekking.
This is great. I think it ultimately proves thay they should bring back water cooled barrels and add tempreture sensors to them. People are probably attempting to become great shooters on sub par guns and there are just not enough 1500 yard guns to go around.
@@gabriels5105 lol. Need a 50x FFP scope with target illumination and aimpoint recognition and servomotor target tracking to get best results. Who aims their own rifle these days? Just punch the shot data into the ballistics computer, select your target and let the rifle aim for you. Then you just have to squeeze your 3 ounce glass trigger when you’re ready.
In reality I think people fail to realize that shooting and hunting are two different sports.
If you want to shoot, get a gun that will shoot. If you want to hunt, get a gun that will hunt. Great shooting guns don’t make the best field companion, and great hunting guns will never be the best bench rifles.
Outside some special cases like sheep hunting, I can’t come up with a need to be MOA or better. Even an 800 yard shot on an elk gives you 2 MOA to play with. And the overwhelming majority of hunters are taking the overwhelming majority of their shots under 150 yards and aren’t shooting more than 300 yards in any case. Which, on a deer gives you 3 MOA, and on an elk gives you 5 MOA.
Goes hand in hand with some other hard truths, like projectile selection is more important than cartridge selection, and sinking time and resources into getting ready for 800 yard shots is less effective than sinking the same time and resources into your ability to locate and get closer to the game you want to hunt.
@@tylerbrown4483 hey that sounds like what the army is doing minus the aiming for you and possibly the temperature sensor.
I suppose people dont need nice guns for hunting but people get many guns anyways. Alot of them practice some times. Ideally we could all get a perfect gun. Sure at a 1000 yards a cartridge is more important but at 100-300 yards we would still see the benifit. With a weak cartridge ideally at 100-300 yards we could be shooting bullets through the previous holes on a target. We would not need as far away of a target and instead we could just use a small target instead. It would also give alot of people confidence to know when we are just aiming bad and we can improve rather just not knowing.
Also precision stuff is a little more expensive. If we could just have some super heavy water cooled thing with a radiator and a few tricks to make it more accurate we could possibly get a bunch of budget guns that actually shoot good or take away buisness from companies that way overcharge for what they sell.
Great topic. I'm glad someone is finally calling out manufacturers on their ridiculous "sub moa" guarantees.
I’ve never had a rifle not be. I think this issue is with the shooter 90% of the time and 8.99% it’s their shit ammo and then 1% it’s their optic meaning they didn’t set it up properly. Leaving .01% it’s the rifle bc stuff does happen but 99.999% of ppl suck at shooting if you have a .5moa rifle and a 1moa shooter the best you can get in theory is 1moa the best you can in worst case scenario is 1.5moa
Well here's my theory. In a most likely indoor range, with a particular lot of ammunition, manufacturers probably do get a 1 or sub moa group. Probably also clamped in a bench vice to help with vibrations. Not out in the sun, in a dry area, with untested random brand ammo. And also likely a consistent barrel temperature. Let's face reality on this. A hunting rifle is just that. 1 shot and you've harvested your trophy. No need for 5 back to back rounds. You don't warm the rifle before taking the shot
For me I wouldn’t call it ridiculous is it common no but it only has to achieve it one time you see it a lot in the archery industry with IbO speed tests the bow only has to hit that mark one time and it gets that rating I myself as a consumer know what it is capable of but real world it will never hit that mark
@@krislink1761 lead sled and or a vice for vibrations bleeds accuracy out of a rifle
It screws up harmonics it is not hard to shoot sub MOA …. 1.047”. 1 inch is submoa at 100 and yes they use good ammo not shitty steel cased or surplus stuff it’s match grade ammo which the MOA guarantee suggests
Ammo will make as much difference, and match just means consistent, doesn’t mean it’s what your rifle will shoot well.
I totally agree with this. That being said, most people suck at precision shooting. These 3 to 5 moa groups I see at the range could easily be under 2 moa with someone who knows what they're doing.
Exactly and statistically speaking.. backfiretv is among that group of shooters.
In a real world scenario even the best and higest trained riflemen can only achieve 3 MOA.
Shooting prone from a rest means dick in the real world.
I actually didnt know that there was so much Gypsy nonsense behind the scenes. This qualifies as a public service announcement. Haha! I vote the average of 5x 3-shot groups to include the cold bore with off-shelf ammunition. This I think gives us the most data points for the most realistic scenarios for most people. Great video, thanks for the info!
Or just go to the size circle 90% of the bullets will go through. Shoot a few hundred rounds and discard the worst 10%
Depends on threat model, most threats not dispatched by a pistol will probably heat up your rifle a bit.
Also, you either standardize ammo or just make it more complicated (people will find the best box that doesn't say "match" on it)
I say bring what you will realistically be shooting. Your competition is yourself, so be true to that whitebox Winchester if that's what will be in your gun when you need it.
@@abstractapproach634 In my AR, I shot only M193. Definitely need to standardize ammo, I actually kind of assumed that was a given. I simply meant whatever the standard is, it shouldnt be a hand-load, rather readily available big-box distributed off shelf loads
@@TheAnimal191my Bushmaster shoots 1.75 off bags or bipod with steel cased Tula 62’s. Of course the real number is closer to 2.0 because flyers are a thing. Some guns simply don’t need to be that accurate to be fun or effective. His 800 yard deer example is something I wouldn’t try with my super sexy .338 Rem 700, unless I was desperate or it was a paper deer and I was showing off.
when i do load development for my rifles, i do a ladder (5x5 diffrent charge weights) but a good group does not mean im finnished. I need atleast 2x3 more groups of the same load out a cold rifle to be certain. And before hunting, i generaly do atleast 20 more shots of the same load.
Everyone can do a 0.25" group once in a blue moon and it scews the results when looking for a good load.
I am an experienced shooter. Always shoot 5 shot groups because 3 is luck based. I bought a precision rifle ($2,500) and put on a premium optic ($2,700) and I average 0.7 - 1.1 inch with all different ammo brands. It is incredibly hard to do better than that with factory ammo. You need “precision” loads that work well with your “precision” rifle to achieve sub .75 MOA
Also done plenty of target shooting myself. In my experience, the barrel is the most important factor. An aftermarket barrel will help accuracy more than anything IMO. I have a .308 savage model 10 w/ the mcmillan stock... all factory parts with good optics and a steel rail. It can do .5 MOA with the handloads that it likes. With factory rounds it will do 1 MOA fairly readily.... but ammo choice makes a big difference with it. Its proven in my handloads where the gun loved berger VLD 155s but did not like the 168's ... conversely it loved the hornady 168 match bullets.... all under the same load of varget and same headspacing and the same fire formed brass. No one can tell you what ammo your gun will like the most. Some firearm brands tend to like certain ammo manufacturers more than others, but nothing is guaranteed. It needs to have a taste of a bunch of ammo before it tells you its favorite.
I have a 30-06 savage 111 for hunting and with handloads it does a solid 1 MOA... At times it can manage .5 -.7 MOA ... and to be fair I have not done too much load testing for it. Just ran 5 different loads through it and picked the best one. Its a hunting rifle and just under 1 MOA is plenty fine.
Now, for the most ridiculous groups I've seen and shot is with my fathers rem. model 700 custom .308 ... only thing stock is the receiver ... That gun, with the handloads it likes can do 1 jagged hole pretty easily. Its ridiculous. I still have a target that my pops shot at 300 yards and the grouping is easily less than .8 of an inch with 5 rounds. This makes me believe that nothing can out do an aftermarket barrel.... unless you are dropping 4-5k + on a wicked high end rifle then I'm sure those barrels are just fine too... but for the average low-er cost target rifles, swapping to an aftermarket barrel is the biggest accuracy jump you can get. I am considering re-barreling my .308 and making it a 6.5 creedmore or 6.5 PRC while I'm at it.
Anyways, just figured I'd share my thoughts for whoever cares. Safe shooting folks!
@@Muskiehunter92 my rifle is a 6.5 from Badrock Precision. I agree with everything you said tho
Dang. I built my own precision 308 for $650 and put a $300 swfa 10x on it. Same 5 round grouping size with federal hunting ammo as your $5000 setup. Not that I wouldn't spend that much if I could but the cost sure doesn't seem to represent the results
I've been pro roo shooting about 20 yrs.
99.9% of my shots are at night, under spotlight, resting on the bars mounted on the doors. very few are more than 200 yards. (single brain shots are harvesting licence requirements)
I use a Ruger m77 VT in 223. Heavy stock, heavier barrel, target grade 2 stage trigger. A more than capable rifle. (as it came from factory) $1540 with a decent Bushnell scope.
Most decent factory ammo groups a little either side of 1 moa.
My handloads, shoot around half that.
For a factory rifle with hand tuned hand loads, that's more than satisfactory.
Change up to my .308 fullbore comp rifle. (jacket, sling, elbows & peep sights)
we start at 300 out to 1000 yrds
Not a factory rifle by any stretch of the imagination, with loads as precise as I can make them. Well capable of under .3 on most days.
Receiver $2500
Barrel $1000 (fitted)
Aluminium cnc machined, multi adjustable stock, $3200
Aperture sights (front and rear) $2600
Not much change from $10k to get that precision.
@@1badombre82 yeah but your bolt and lockup aren’t as smooth, your rifle doesn’t weight 50 pounds and sit completely rock solid without extra effort and your scope isn’t capable of 1,000+ yard shots with good target identification. That’s the difference. You built a cheap hunting rifle and found what it likes to eat. I’m not out there trying to keyhole rounds at 100 yards all day lol
I do so love "honesty". That, because there is so very little of it to be found.
Especially from the institutions we’ve been told to trust.
Yep, especially in any gun group found on Reddit.
my guns honest - but it took a lot of modification
I agree, Mr. Diogenes
The test that changed the way I think about accuracy is 5 groups, 5 shots each, on the same paper, no flyers excluded. As you said, competition guns can stay sub-MOA, but hunting rifles usually can't.
If a hunting rifle can do it, i would count on Tikka or Blaser, but you have to search the right ammo. We sight most of our customers rifles in, if they see a group around 1 Moa, they are not happy with it. As if they would need it, most times shots are below 150m, and very few are able to shoot such groups from a log or whatever. On top of that, if the customers sight in for them self, they have their last shots with a warm barrel, not the first, which counts.
Thin barrels and ammo... that'll wreck it every time.
@@maguslascivious4980that very much depends on the barrel, how it was made, if it was cut rifles, and if not, was it destressed, was the boldface trued, etc.
If you're going to shoot 5 - 5 shot groups, then why wouldn't you just shoot one 25 shot group and try to land all the rounds on the same spot? That would tell you what you and your rifle are really capable of.
@@stuntmanmike37 Fair point, and you could ask the same thing about the proposed 5 3-shot groups, 3 5-shot groups, or 2 7-shot groups in the video. 3 or 5 shot groups are easier to track the impacts of each round, and there can also be value in measuring Average Mean Radius as well as Extreme Spread.
I vote for the first one. 5 3shot groups. As a hunter the first shot repeatability is what matters. So I’m always going to choose more groups over bigger groups. For my bow i keep track of my first shot every practice session because that is way more indicative of what will happen in season than the 7th or 8th group of that session
Do you have "cold bore shot" with your bow? Since many claim it is more a "cold shooter shot"
@@stigccI consider that. I find if I shoot my bow like a target shooter after the second string of arrows I shoot like crap. But but I only shoot 5 arrows practicing like I’m taking a single shot on game I stack them almost every time. It’s less shooting but more practice for me.
To get ANY gun to shoot good groups requires finding ammo that shoots well or is matched to your specific rifle. If you take the time, you can shoot consistently with most rifles. If you just pull any box of ammo off the shelf, it will likely shoot dramatically different from your last box and may or may not group at all.
All this is also dependent on proper scope inspection and torque of the stock to the barrel.
Not really. I’ve found dozens of guns out of the box that can shoot it. It’s the shooter that’s the problem
This is absolutely true. Anyone who has shot 5 or 6 different brands of ammo through the same rifle knows this. Certain guns like certain ammo.
This is also why reloading can be crucial for high accuracy shooting. You can find brass, bullet, powder, etc, and tailer it perfectly to your rifle.
A friend of my fathers i would regularly watch him working his loads up over the course of a few trips for a new rifle and would typically shave .5 or more MOA off his groups as he got it more and more dialed in.
Now, as the other commentor mentioned, the reality is that even with a 2moa rifle, the shooter is far more often than not the actual problem.
I can't tell you how many times, literally countless, I've seen guys at the range pull out full custom rifles with 2500 dollar scopes and struggle to shoot consistent 3" groups at 100yd on a 5mph wind day.
@@buttpirate57 lol, thanks for the laugh
@@kutarkReloading is challenging for me personally. I have always gotten better precision out of factory ammo than my reloads :/
Well if you want to measure just the gun then you clamp it down so it can't move and you'll be just pulling the trigger. But maybe that is a bit too confrontational for some people.
My Mini 14 came with a 8 MOA guarantee. 😎
I bet it'll do it too!
I'm a former Marine and long time precision rifle shooter.
Most rifles can do 1 MOA or better if tuned well and using good ammo.
My 308 RPR does 0.75 MOA consistently with factory Federal Gold Medal Match ammo.
I do check and correct the factory ammo with a Hornady concentricity kit.
My Marlin 30-30 does about 2 MOA but it's a 100 yard rifle only for small areas.
My Armalite AR50A1 holds right at 1 MOA with Hornady A-MAX ammo.
My FN M4 is about 2.5 MOA.
And my Russian AK and Chinese SKS is about 3 MOA.
Biggest factor with long range shooting is knowing and adjusting for all the variables: distance, vertical angle like up hill or down hill, wind, temp, humidity, atmospheric pressure, ammo temp, bullet spin drift, maybe even coriolis if the range is long enough.
You can get first round hits if you know all these variables and have a very well developed ballistic chart.
You'll need good gear for all of this too.
It's possible if you've done the work, training, and tons of practice.
When in doubt, don't take the shot.
Not just good ammo but ammo your particular barrel likes, a lot of people have no idea what twist barrel and what weight bullets to shoot, and that slightly slower velocities are usually more accurate as well
Concentricity of ammo does almost nothing for accuracy. Consistent neck tension and seating depth is much more important. The RPR should be sub half moa unless the barrel is close to being shot out, I suspect your optic is your bottleneck.
I get a 1/4" moa 1 shot group every time any conditions!
Post a video
@@chiefmachining7972 I think he is referring to a caliber he shoots a .25 that would be 1/4 inch 1 shot group regardless of where he hits.
But I'll take a video anyway 😊
@@chiefmachining7972 If you only shoot once it's always a tight group, LOL!
Another factor to consider: many shooters have fallen for the myth that a squeaky clean bore is essential for pinpoint accuracy. The copper from the bullets will"plate" the bore and fill in minor imperfections which more often than not,will improve accuracy. Excessive scrubbing and brushing, especially with strong solvents, will often do more harm than good.
Exactly. Shoot my best groups with a smooth bore 12 gauge.
Ya that's dumb. There's a reason snipers in WW2 used "dirty" barrels
Those people would have a heart attack if they saw the barrels I’m making 1800+ yard shots with 😁
@@RedBeardLongRange 1800 yards?? Really? Impressive
Erik Cortina has proven that is a lie lol. Same experience though, light fouling helps one of my rifles, the other likes a squeaky clean bore
I love this video. One phenomenon I've observed in my personal shooting is to shot multiple 5 shot groups contemporaneously, then overlay the targets (aim points) to see a "composite" 15 or 20 shot group. Every time I have a so called flyer on a single target, it usually settles in to the rest of the group on the composite, telling me it's actually within the error of my set up / abilities. Helps keep me honest about my abilities and my equipment.
When I used to do a lot of shooting I would often get sub MOA results. However, all of my rifles were for hunting and we hand loaded for them so powder, primers, bullets and cases were all carefully selected. Even then, I was very happy if I could print a 2" group for an upcoming hunting trip.
I have always felt a 2" group was more than accurate enough for hunting as I wouldn't shoot at an animal beyond 300 yards anyway. From what I've observed over 65 years of hunting, most hunters can't shoot the difference anyway.
I agree 100%
Thanks to bringing attention to this! I like your proposed standards. Another important thing is ammo. You are going to be hard pressed to get an average of sub 1 MOA without quality match grade ammo that your gun likes.
Or handloads.
This.
I went through a dozen boxes of ammo to find the right ammo (and since it was all match grade that was expensive). I now have a 1,000 rounds of exactly the ammo (down to the batch, and yes, it mattered) that will shoot 1/2 MOA in that rifle. Of course, I can’t shoot that accurately (I’m at best a 1.5 MOA shot, and more like a 2-3MOA shot in anything but the very best circumstances), so all of my testing was done in a gigantic vise bolted to my truck (best case: 5 round groups all through the same hole, worst case not counting obvious flyers: 1.5 MOA), though doing so required I keep the barrel at the same temperature.
I’m really not looking forward to having to repeat this, as other batches of the same model didn’t perform anywhere near as well 😢
@@samthai818 Handloads are the only real way to get the best of the best since you can tune to exactly what your rifle wants.
You need ammo that's capable of delivering 1moa.
Agreed. With handloads very tight ES and SD can be achieved. I broke in a rifle with "premium" factory loads and ES and SD were large enough to cause some vertical stringing. Handloads shoot clover leaves.
Thank you for this video. For years I hear people talk about being able to shoot MOA or even sub-MOA with their unmodified rifles using factory ammunition. I now am blessed with a gun range on my property that has targets out to 300 yards. I have had several groups of people come out to shoot at my range and have yet to find any that shoot considerably more accurate than myself. In fact, most of them are shooting 2+ MOA at best and some only shoot the 12" steel plates. Under near perfect conditions yesterday, I was able to shoot MOA for 3-shot groups at each of 50, 200 and 300 yards with a bolt action 6.5 Creedmoor using Hornady Precision Hunter rounds from a bench rest. This is the exception, not the rule, for my groups. With my AR platform rifles, shooting MOA is even more of an oddity, especially with the shorter barrels. Bottom line is that I was concerned about my accuracy but am now seeing it in a different light. There aren't many folks out there giving behind the scenes information like you do in the video. It is much appreciated.
If you're shooting factory ammo (even super voodoo match), 2 MOA for *all* of your shots is expected.
If you're looking for _any single_ sub-MOA three-shot group, even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.
Props to those manufacturers that publish their testing process for their guarantees.
I shot a 2 MOA group last week with Black Hills .223 52gr Match HP (might no longer be made). It was a 20 shot group, however.
Its amazing because airguns (cheap ones too) get sub 2 MOA easily (and I'm super rusty, like I live in a state where even a water squirt toy is illegal near me, and you can't even own a .22 hand pewpew in your own home without bribes, and also playing with Nerf toys or slingshots is illegal in multiple counties in your own backyard). So when I was out of the state I was able to put a 10 round magazine on a penny from 30 yards with ease (would be roughly 2.25 MOA, but I wasn't hitting the edges with any of the 10 so it was sub 2 MOA). Also I shake a LOT compared to when I was younger (and yes I'm only 28, whatever gene that causes shaking runs in the family)
Even at 308 ft (102.6 yard) I got 7 out of 10 pellets to hit a soda can (which is about 2.6" wide), I was just amazed at the accuracy considering maybe 2 years ago a buddy of mine said "nice shot", when it wasn't the target I was aiming for, lol! Also note there was light wind (below 10 mph), and I was using cheap economy pellets and nothing fancy, no proper tuning either (I want to try out some high quality ammo next time I fly out, because that's just impressive)
That was with only a day or 2 of playing with a new regulated PCP. Those things are amazing, and with scope and plenty of pellets it was less than $500. Yes compressor was about $250, but that was the only support equipment needed. Lots of fun!
military 7.62 LR can consitently hold 1 moa out of their snipers, When i was an instructor, our students had to take a cold bore shot at a circle the size of a dip can as their first qualification shot
If the manufacturer is guaranteeing 1 moa, that rifle better do it under any condition, with any ammunition
I built my 308 and it's sub moa with federal fusion hunting ammo. I've got proof of a .75 inch group at 200 yards even. That being said I only measure 3 round groups not 5 round groups.
even if the rifle can shoot 1 MOA, the shooter probably cant all the time. great video! being able to shoot sub MOA is SO NOT the same thing as shooting sub MOA average. and shoot sub MOA for 3 shots is not the same as sub MOA for 5. statistics people!
Neither can the rifle
@@borkwoof696 doubtful in the high-end market
@@borkwoof696Most any rifle that is unitized to its stock and is loaded with match grade ammunition can produce sub MOA if fired by a trained marksman. The United States Army Marksmanship Unit has proven this via machine rest shooting of rifles built for their Service Rifle Team. These shooters get great results with the unitized rifles while untrained shooters get poor results with same rifles until they get some formal training.
In high power rifle competition the shooter is not thinking much about grouping but typically the result of competition will be a 10 or 20 round group and shooters who have reached high master class will shoot most rounds in the one MOA arena.
I shoot a fair bit and have so for years. I repeatedly say most new and a vast majority of older equipment is far more capable than I am.
Not a whole lot of PEOPLE are capable of shooting 1 MOA.
Myself included! I get close, but not that close
When I bought my bolt action .308 hunting rifle, I researched TH-cam to see which ones under $2000.00 were most accurate. Browning X-Bolt came up a lot, that's what I got. With my reloads at 100 yards, I get under MOA groups. I can consistently shoot quarters with the first shot once sighted in at 100 yards. BUT...not with factory ammo.
Yeah handloading makes a big difference. I can get most rifles to shoot 1moa or less with handloads. Thats why some makers only say 1moa with specific ammo. Like weatherby guarantees 1moa with their premium factory ammo which I have found to be true.
My A-bolt IIs are lasers as well, but definitely have preferences in ammo. I've had the best luck with Nosler Trophy-Grade so far
I need a new rifle
I bought a ruger hawkeye in 308 i could do .25 moa everyshot using factor fusion ammo from a bench at 100 yards. I since replaced it an have the same rifle in 243. Right now im shooting remington corelokts which arent as good but still moa
I have a 6.8 western in an xbolt, and the 175 grainers are crazy accurate. I have only shot up to 200 yards, and I took it out to 1,000 yards and shot a rock about the size of a coyote it was a hit every time I shot
For hunting rifles… the cold bore shots seem to be the most important - yeah, you might follow up with 1-2 shots, but I’d be interested in seeing group accuracy of only cold bore shots.
💯
@@Hihowareya315 I agree. Never shoot your sight-in groups for hunting and then clean your barrel. Clean it, sight-in, zero, fire one last one, and then off you go.
For F-class, back when we all shot moly-coated, many guys would take a nylon bore brush and drizzle some moly on it and then run it through the barrel a few times to " moly-foul" it. I always appreciated that your first 2 "sighters" on-target were convertible, so, if you scored 5's or V's with your first cold-bore, you could take the scores.
@@Hihowareya315 Yep. After practicing at the range I clean my barrel and then make sure one shot is fired through it before hunting season starts.
This. The only shot that matters when hunting is that cold clean bore shot. If your rifle can't put one through the heart and lungs at 300m, you need a better rifle or you're just a bad shot.
2 patches of alcohol and 2 dry patches in the morning probably will take care of your cold bore shot.
You named your son Ruger?
I love it !
It was either Ruger or Glock…..
Yeah that’s a big yike
Jim, it was great shooting with you the other day, thanks for the invite. As for those guarantees, there is always fine print, and those companies will use that to their advantage.
Well consumers always use free returns and etc to their advantage. It’s not companies. It’s human nature. So many people buy from Amazon and try it out cause of free returns the seller loses so much money when you do that and in turn they must jack up the price of the products for everyone that’s buying. Many times when you get returns. The items can be a total loss but for a seller to stay in business he must accept this is part of the game.
I guess, for me, the fine print is likely there because others took advantage of the company first. Like FitBit used to have an unlimited 3 year warranty. I know several people that took advantage and had their watches replaced for little stuff like a small scratch etc. So yeah, the company uses the fine print to their advantage, but which came first? The sh**ty customer or the fine-print-lawyer-y warranty? No one goes into business to lose money. And most places, if there's TRULY an error, they're really good about replacing it. Most major brands care about their reputation.
@@hunt_trap_fish companies have a lot of experience with general public and will do business accordingly. But also some companies are just trash but also many customers are trash abusers too
I vote for 5 sets of 3 shots each. I have never shot more than two shots at a deer, but I have only hunted with a lever action this far.
My buddy has an AR in 450 bushmaster, and he used 3 in quick succession when I inadvertently startled a deer towards him (do not drink soda when you go hunting!)
The 15 shots will get a good variability, and the 5 sets will get the largest number of cold bore shots.
In my personal experience most shooters are overwhelmed shooting 5 shot groups with a big game cartridge. I found three shots reduced fliers. This was my experience as range master at the Tucson Mountain Park shooting range. Aside from that most sub moa groups in my experience were a fluke. Only a rare few were semi consistent. They also seemed inclined to say 400 yards was the end under hunting conditions. Totally agree with your video. My belief almost any reputable manufacturers rifle, combined with it's favorite factory ammo is more accurate than the vast majority of shooters. Oh and 3 out of 5 in one hole is dang good. :)
Excellent information for all of us. Perhaps an adjustment of expectations are in order. With a dose of humility in our hunting distances.
Well most do, but the shot gets farther away everytime they tell the story ;)
I agree completely with your point. 2moa of accuracy plus a couple moa of shooter error in the field and ballpark you have a rifle and shooter combination that shouldn’t be used past 200 yards on a pronghorn, for example.
Become a 'regular' at any gun range you'll experience that dose of humility up close. In my mind, I'm always a better shot.
Unfortunately, the guy next to me trying to zero at 100 is tagging the wrong target - mine!
No wonder my range Buddy measured my group at 2 inches (ok 20 if you count the flyers).
A day at the range right before deer season is a real telltale. Very few manage sub MOA groups and the ones who do are usually shooting hand loads. Thoroughly entertaining to watch😅
the comparison to automobiles is pretty solid.... MPG ranking based on certain gas or computer settings... cough LIA......... COUGH VW.....
Absolutely correct. When I was doing the survey, I was surprised that you didn't have larger MOA groups. I was going to select 4 MOA if that was available. I'm glad you're squashing this belief. Keep it up!
Great video and hopefully it helps ease the expectations to new shooters. I know that I often beat my self up over group sizes and while I still believe most of my rifles will outperform me as a shooter it’s nice to be reminded that a “moa guarantee ” isn’t really guaranteed.
Apologies if you’ve already done a video like this but if you have enough of an audience interest, I’d like to see you compile a list of quality left hand rifles, especially some of these newer cartridges. I’m a left handed shooter and while the options are greater now than they had been, I still find it somewhat difficult to find left handed rifles that don’t require a full custom build. Thank you for your content
IF you can hold a 1.5 moa while IN the field, then those 500 yd shots on game are still dicey. Considering you are likely impacting a 7.5” circle, not counting holding for wind, and a lot of guys will be missing (hopefully) or injuring animals. Now if you get out to the range and verify your velocity, verify your dope to 600, call wind accurately, AND hold moa or better accuracy IN field shooting positions, then you might be ready to take those 500yd shots on game. I would also suggest knocking out 20 burpees just prior to each shot to simulate “buck fever”. If you can’t do these things then just closer lol. Thanks for the video, it is a topic that isn’t talked about enough.
I don't do 5 shots because I don't see the need. If I was competing in NRL or the like, then I think 10 shots would make sense. For hunting I like the cold bore shot and then the 2 follow up. That is why I do 3 shot groups, but I do shoot the same load several times and then take the average. The best rifle I have gotten is my Ruger American Go Wild in 6.5 Creedmoor. So far it averages .75 with all the ammo I have given it, but the biggest group was a 1.02
I haven’t done many 5 shot groups but with hornady 140 or 147 3 shot groups. I have got just under 1 moa quite a few times. Gun impresses me every time.
Same for me. Love “that ruger”! Always a shooter. Almost every load I have ever tried had loading does really well
When I take a rifle to the range that I haven't shot in a while I'm more concerned about how far from POA the cold bore shot is than group size. If my first 3 shots are within 1 MOA from POA (point of aim), I'm good.
One of the things I've found on older cartridge designs like 308 and 300 Win Mag is that some guns are extremely picky about ammo. My 308 does really well with nosler ammo but struggles with fgmm in 168 grain. My 300 Win Mag loves Barnes LRX but hates Nosler ammo.
Came in here to say this, ammo can introduce a huge amount of variability. I'd want same BATCH of ammo, let alone same mfg, same bullet, etc.
Every firearm has a preference for ammo. In fact, brand X rifle model Y chambered in Z serial number 1 and serial number 2 will almost certainly NOT prefer the same load.
Edit - just so there's no confusion, this applies to every firearm regardlessof type, rifles, handguns, shotguns, cannons doesn't matter. Each is one of a kind when it comes to ammo.
Yep, gotta find a setup that works well - and stick to it, year after year....
Very Good! Yes, I care about that first cold shot. I shoot mostly 30-06, and I have spent a lot of boring hours at the range to select the factory ammo for my rifle (an old 1960's commercial Mauser action sporter). After narrowing down the best, I spent another 5 hour day with a dirty bore, shooting one box of shells, letting the barrel get to ambient temperature and going only for the 10 ring on one target. So, if that 20 round hole, with all the wind and weather and mood changes of that day, is 2 inches or less, I am good to go. My rifle likes the Norma Bondstrike 180 gr. I have no idea how the elk feel about it.
Christensen Arms has an extensive barrel break-in routine that (as of last time I looked) was mandatory for the buyer to follow to the letter for Christensen to honor their warranty.
I’m a little perplexed how their sub-moa claim jives when their in-house test is evidently done before the barrel break-in process.
And they still don’t shoot because they are out together with crap barrels and not trued actions. Junk.
@@flyingirish31 what?
@@Vikingwerk cA is garbage. Only fools and fanbois buy them more than once. Everyone else learns their lesson.
I own a lot of hunting rifles and only one will shoot under 1 moa consistently and with a lot of loads. It's an old paddle stocked Ruger M77 MKII all weather. Crazy right? My Savage 10's and 110's and Ruger Americans are damn good but only with a couple loads and not consistently. They're 1-1.5" guns. Change to a 3 shot group and the story changes though, and even when accuracy guarantees became popular (Weatherby did that) it was all 3 shot groups.
I to own a 1991 Ruger boat paddle MKII all weather in .308 Win. Only factory ammo I have shot less than 1 moa is Hornady custom 150 gr. SST 7/8 inch 3 shot group, very consistent. My best handload will shoot 1/2 inch moa, using Hornady cases, 150 gr. SST's, CCI primers and Varget powder. It also shoots very consistent. I don't have flyers with cold barrel. I feel fortunate after listening to this video.
@@johngoodman9380 agreed. Mine has been so impressive. I've seen testing saying otherwise but mine has never been picky and just stacks bullets on top of each other. My dad and friends all got Number 1 single shots and they can't beat my groups.
I noticed that none of the literature that stated group size stated that the firearm in question was actually held by a person. Eliminate human error from the equation and the groups shrink significantly.
I would dare say these companies are using a machine to shoot these guns when they test. A machine takes out all human error. Great video and thanks for sharing this information.
This is easily my favorite channel on all of TH-cam! Keep the videos coming!!!
Ok, I paused after 0:39 to comment. Based on his sign, I’d stand at the target point blank and shoot all 5 rounds through the same hole. They didn’t write distance on the sign.
I had to google what a MOA is in the first place. But point blank doesnt mean you shooting straight, but makes it just unpractical to measure.
Average of five 3 shot groups - 15 shots
With hunting rifles usually having lighter sporter barrels, I think it’s important to monitor heat when shooting groups. That’s why 3 shot groups with adequate cool down periods is better than 5 or 7 shot groups. With heavy barrel on benchrest rifles, 7 + shot groups can be fairly tested
I own mostly combloc AKs and am happy with minute of terrorist at 100 meters. Now my Savage in .17 HMR with a bull barrel at 50 yds. is a one hole gun out of a lead sled but if it's just me it opens up to a little over an inch and a quarter. As far as I'm concerned the gun is an anamoly but I'm glad to own it. Nice honest video, thanks much!
Are they average or overweight terrorists?
Not an anomaly at all. I've got the 93-17, standard barrel, some cheap 4-16x44 Chinese scope off Amazon and it is also a 1 hole gun at 50 yards. Still driving tacks at 100, cloverleaf's at 125. This is only with Hornady V-Max 17 grainers. If I switch to XTP 20 grainers it shoots 3 inches high at 100, .75 MOA. My main coyote gun is an Axis II 22-250 with a 6-18x44 Vortex Crossfire scope. Shoots .4 MOA out to 350 yards with 55 grain V-Max. Never checked on paper further out but the yotes would have attested to their accuracy if their lungs weren't blown out...LOL. And by the way, no fancy set up when sighting in. Just a bipod, my wife's old purse filled with wood pellets and my truck tailgate. Savage makes a mighty fine weapon. Especially for the money you aren't spending on something with a bit fancier name.
@@fshnskimtb9218 Appreciate the feedback. Glad to know the performance is normal. Been using the gun for several years and have nothing bad to say about it. Thanks much!
I'm no expert, nor am I a hunter. I have been an occasional target shooter, just for the fun of it, most of my life. 35 years ago, I could pretty consistently shoot (from a prone position) 3" groups at 100 yards with an old bolt-action Marlin .22, using its factory iron sights. (It accepts shorts, longs, and lr's, but I used lr's.) My eyesight and nerves aren't what they used to be; there's no way I could do that any longer. I think too many people put too much stock in a gun's accuracy. Imho, I think the old saying about a gun's accuracy being greater than its user applies in the vast majority of cases.
Well I feel great Jim! I voted 1.5 MOA or larger and my sig cross in 6.5cm shoots under 1 MOA “regularly”
I thought it was 3 shots moa not 5🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, this guy better be careful. There's someone around him or in his community that'll take his lunch money 💰. This is a simple matter of data collection, the shooter would've had to test his weapon ammo combo and find the ammo it likes the best and test it multiple times to get an average. There's some validity to what he is saying about advertising, but the reality is the shooter should be putting rounds down range to get intimately familiar with all facets of the rifle, ammo, optic, rest system, and the shooters abilities
5 is really more reliable than 3, although for big game 3 is usually sufficient. Although a 10 shot group is better for true mechanical accuracy.
@BrettBaker-uk4te there's validity to all that as well, some rifles by design though you won't be able to squeeze to much out of them take for example a military service M4 with its stock carbine configuration, stock ammo, and a stock fixed 4x second focal plane optic. It has a 4MOA requirement. Shooting varying group sizes with that through 3, 5, and 10 shots at varying yardage, would leave you a lot to be desired. Even a 2 moa hunting rifle with standard ammo and optics would yield better.
if your gun cant shoot 5 shots moa it's not a moa gun simple as that
CHEAT CODE, MK. 262
So, these turkeys have, evidently, never checked their rifles for accuracy.
Not a "hoax", except for factory rifles.
My ARs shoot under 1 MOA.
Yes, not a "hunting" rifle.
The Remington 700, in 308, I built shot three rounds in same hole at 200 yards. The NRA range inspector was there and the owner of the range was there for witnesses.
Eleven months later, I sold my gun shop.
Remember...there are plenty of "fixes" for AR15 problems that do not exist.
If you scrape your bolt, you should sell your guns.
I'm really happy you posted this video. My favorite quote comes to mind -> In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.
Several years ago I freefloated the barrel on my Remington 700 because everyone was telling me it would increase the accuracy of the rifle. My groups more than doubled in size. In an attempt to recover the prior performance, I then glass bedded the entire barrel and groups tightened up to 13/16 of aninch with factory ammunition. When I started reloading ammunition a few years later I was able to achieve 5/8 inch 5 shot groups from a cold barrel.
That’s because simply free floating isn’t enough to make a rifle accurate. 🤦♂️
Yeah lots of rifle manufacturers used to purposefully make contact with the barrel at the fore end of the stock. Especially on wood stock rifles. Made it more consistent in different environments.
Tacit knowledge 🫡
Invaluable.
Use a Steyr. Americans make good guns but the factory stock is crap. The barrel needs to be properly bedded if you want to achieve 1 MOA. Steyr arms beds every riffle barrel. No proper bedding, no accurate shooting.
I have several hunting rifles that shoot 1 MOA or better but I reload and it takes work especially shooting 5 shot groups (at 100 yards). But currently due to many components still being hard to find and expensive I have cut back to 3 shoot groups. Great topic to discuss. Keep’em in the 10 ring everyone!
I’m in same boat. It’s more than the gun and ammo plus shooter is more important
I have a PH2 that hangs around 1MOA, but I've worked hard to get it there and quite a lot of load development. Range conditions also need to be darn near perfect. I have managed to shoot a few 1/2 MOA groups, but even with all the work that isn't the norm. It's really hard and you have to be very focused. Good Stuff!
Spot on with this video. I've got two hunting rifles of sub-moa claim, and even one shot get things drifting around. 5 shots have considerable drift. I have to wait 5' minutes or longer between shots to let the barrel come down to ambient temperature or it will not group. Granted, both are magnum calibers, so they really heat things up quickly. Great video and keeps it real most hunting rifles. The first shot is what counts the most.
I think your 3 x 5-shots is pretty decent. A box of centrefire cartridges is 20 rounds... 5 shots for dial-in/ zeroing, and then the rest in 3 groups that open-up the possibilities for random flyers. Obviously, larger shot volume per group will give better averages, and smaller volume (3-shot) can lead to a really tight one misleading you into believing that THAT group is the norm.
In rimfire, which is literally a nightmare of unpredictability, I start off with 5-shot groups, until i find a few ammo brands that show promise, then I'll shoot 10's until that box is empty. Even the very best ammo I can buy: Tennex, X-Act, R-50, etc. still shows an amazingly annoying tendency to throw fliers and ruin great groups.
go read the wikipedia page on statistics and T-tests. 15 rounds is an acceptable group size, but not for the reasons you are giving
solid video, sir. i think all the pros/sponsored shooters/influencers spouting off about having a 1/2, 3/4, 1 MOA rifle, etc when they often times do not are confusing people. just because a rifle shot 3 rounds once upon a time inside of 1MOA does not mean its a 1MOA rifle, shoot more rounds and watch that group open up.
Thanks for the psa, I've personally only had one consistently sub moa rifle which was a (name redacted so as to not seem like a commercial) and that was an anomaly because i bought the same thing again and my sks with golden tiger was more accurate (at 100 yards). It has been my experience that the only way to make a rifle consistently super accurate is to work up a load that the rifle likes.
I hand load ammo. This is comical to me. Every rifle has a load that works best for that rifle. This all takes time to determine. Factory ammo in any rifle with a claimed accuracy is a joke to me. I have tested factory loads and they vary a lot. Anyone that hand loads for accuracy can tell you this. These claims by manufacturers are just a sales gimmick. We can discuss different rounds, barrel lengths, weights, configurations, actions and so on. This is nuts.
Hey Backfire! My first five shot group out of a brand new one moa certified rifle was 0.75" and every other group after was hovering around 1.0". Just because the rifle can do it once in a hundred groups, does not make it a sub moa rifle. If anything I have taken away from this video is to strive for sub moa but to take pride in consistently shooting at 1 moa. Thank you for the great content! Would love to see more Sako 85 and 90 series love !!
It's heat, your rifle is the most accurate at cold bore. As the barrel heats up, it expands slightly and engages the bullet less.
That means you can’t shoot sub MOA not the rifles issue you proved it to yourself and he is fulfilling the prophecy of your ignorance
this is a great video covering an important topic. the average consumer is being taken advantage of. what actually matters is the SD - the standard devation of the dispersion of a rifle. the more shots you fire the more accurately you can measure the SD of a rifle/load. it takes 15, 20, 30 shots or more to measure the SD and the more shots you fire the more you can tighten that measurement. then once you know the true SD of your rifle/load, then you can predict what any 3 or 5 shot group will do.
Hoax my rear, here in North Texas we have children shooting leagues that routinely shoot several groups each under one inch. A lot of trophy's for the kids, except these kids earned it. I also have several personal rifles that go well under an inch, but one thing I noted is that most of these shooters in this video that tried to take your fifty bucks had real bad form/technique and one can easily speculate they arent real target shooters. Most appeared to be unseasoned target shooters that you see shopping at Cabelas on sales days. Great topic but again your way off your mark on this one. In all honesty it's also obvious your still very inexperienced and are still pretty new at this gun game. The way you rushed to finally achieve your one MOA group was even rushed, and an experienced shooter would have even done much better with better technique. The real hoax is young whipper snappers thinking they know something about guns that they obviously don't. Work on real knowledge experience and gun wisdom and you'll get there as long as your honest and humble. Check out the Real Gunsmith channel.
I know a guy who had a Savage 243 that he shot sub 1 moa. He weighed each slug, the powder individually and used the same primers. Then he tried several combinations until he had the perfect slug/powder individually weighed. It's a $300 rifle with a Leopold scope if I'm not mistaken.
Saw the same thing with some guys shooting some 308s. They had their ammo so dialed in, they were disappointed to get 1 moa. I would reload if I knew what I was doing.
@@kmafdlmagotg8328 same, I don't know enough about/no where to set it up. I actually traded an old Lee press for a tattoo gun/equipment lol
...you lost me at Savage
@@marw1920 I've never personally owned one so no opinion here either way 🤷♂️😄
@@jdefabs2112 I shouldn't be so facetious because I do own 1 Savage and it was my first rifle. It's a very underrated accurate rifle . But don't get me started on Leopold scopes ...😁
There are a few factors that will determine the accuracy of your rifle, i.e., which ammo your barrel likes (grain and manufacturer). I own two 6.5 Creedmoor Wilson Combat rifles. One has a 22 inch barrel and the other a 24 inch. After trying different grains and manufacturers, both rifles liked Sellier & Bellot 140 grain soft point. Out of a box of 20 rounds, shooting four 5-round groups, I constantly have on each group four rounds that group at 0.75 to 0.50 and one flyer that opens the group 1.25 to 1.75. Sometimes, all five rounds are below 1 MOA. Sometimes, all five suck. A few months ago, I decided to weigh each round and group them by weight. Each box of 20 had a wide range of weights; meaning that some had a lot more propellant. Some groups were all over and others were very tight groups (0.75 to 0.50). That proved what I had suspected all along; factory ammo is factory ammo. Forget 100% consistency. If you want consistency and accuracy, load your own shit. Most of the time is not the rifle or you. It’s the ammo.
They're is definitely variation in some of the factory ammunition. One thing to consider when weighing ammo for consistency, you need to also weigh the empty brass. I think you'll be surprised at the variation in brass weight with different lots of brass
@fattigla Good point, but the problem with factory ammo is that in order to weigh the cartridge, you would have to take it apart.
@santiagoflores8847 yeah, might be interesting to do with empty cases after you shoot them. Just to have the data point
Depends on the factory ammo but I agree the only way to know your ammo was meticulously assembled down to the microgram of powder is to load your own.
My t3x shooting nosler Match grade bthp shoots half moa. Consistently. Then for the same rifle if I load up some American eagle bulk 223 I’m grouping 2 moa consistently because it’s cheap junk.
“Sub MoA all day long” guys never seem to show up at nationals. Weird…
Well done. I shoot almost everyday - spend a lot of time at range (retired now). I often shoot over 500 rounds a week on the 100. Yes, I can shoot 3/4 MOA on my best days. But I average 1.30 MOA on most days (or so my range Buddy says). Most bolt-action 'scoped' shooters who come to the range to test their skills on the 100, in my experience, end up shooting about 5-7 inch group. Others are lucky to get on paper at 100 yards (usually the AR 15 guys who show up once a year to flex ). Think about it - world record bolt action competition shooters are occasionally under 1/4 MOA - but not everyday. Our best 'benchrest shooters' at the range where I practice can shoot 1/2 MOA - but not 'everyday'. When I hit the occasional 1/2 MOA I'm lucky, but then again I'm not really a 'group' guy. I prefer shooting metal out past 1000. If I hit the damn thing in 10 shots I feel like I'm a 1 MOA guy ... thats ' 1 mans opinion arguably '.
I find zero fault with your practice strategy. My game is US Service Rifle Competition and Long Range High Power Rifle Competition, iron sight Service Rifle Division. All of my practice used to be at the 100 yard line, anywhere from 20 to 70 rounds daily until I could shoot 96% standing scores and 98% prone scores. This routine was very expensive, $30,000 for ammo in one season where I was attempting to distinguish myself. I did that but later realized dry firing could have yielded the same results at virtually no expense. At any rate, at one point I got good enough to put 20 rounds into 3/4 MOA from prone sling supported position with 3 quarters of those inside the half minute arena until my eyes just could not resolve a consistent sight picture anymore. Fun stuff.
I have 3 sub moa rifles…… none are factory. One is a prewar model 70 in 280AI that’s been bedded blueprinted, floated heavy profile ed Shilen barrel, custom brake….. I have about 13k into it. The other is also a model 70 in an aluminum chassis and the third is a custom stainless Sako L61R (1 of 2 known to exist) in 338 win mag. Each has its own preferred loads. It’s possible, but extremely rare from a production rifle and even then with a very short list of favorable loads.
@@zackzittel7683
It’s easy to spend thousands of $ on rifles. If you want to shoot consistently, spend hundreds on ammo and you will shoot better. I have an old Remington 22 bolt action that I shoot consistently 1 moa at 50 yards with peep sights. I use it in competitions. I shot 20 or better different loads of target ammunition before I found the one my gun liked.
I also have a 30-06 Springfield 1903 that manufactured sometime in the 1920s and my dad bought as military surplus and sporterised in our basement in the 50s. Again I shot many types of ammunition before I found the sweet spot and it shoots 3/4 moa easily.
Lots of things can affect a good shot group, no replacement for trigger time.
Is it the AR or the nut behind the trigger?
@@michaelalbert8474 I probably shoot 15k plus center fire cartridges a year. I have 40-50 sets of dies, probably 7-800 lbs of brass in various stages of tumbling, depriming, resizing, trimming ect. One of my rifles is worth more than my truck and my car. I have a 1890 .22lr winchester that shoots 1” groups @ 50 and a win model 69 that does the same. Also have a $200 Savage that will shoot 1” groups with match grade rimfire. (It does 2moa at 350yds with subs) I’ve shot competitively since I was 16. I’ve got a video on my shorts of me shooting a 1” group with a subcompact glock at 20 yards offhand. I understand fully that money can’t buy competence…. I’m 36 and I’ve been shooting religiously for 31 years.
This was probably my favorite of your videos. Manufacturers need to give a 1moa guarantee on higher end rifles in order to compete and yet it is basically unworkable in the real world. Only really helpful with guns that are truly defective. I have an xbolt in 30 06 that shoots at best around 1 moa occasionaly under more often slightly over. What's more important to me is that it is not picky about the ammo it does it with.
My wife has a micromidas xbolt in 7mm-08 that has not been shot a lot but I've never seen it shoot a 3 shot group over an inch.(That I can remember) When she first shot it I thought that her second shot had missed the paper but it had gone through the first hole almost perfectly.
I just shot a 3 shot group with it with necksized only barnes 140tsx that a dime covered. I stopped there because I didn't want to mess up those three beautiful holes with what was bound to happen if I kept shooting.🙃
You sir are exactly spot on. A hunting rifle is just that, most all shoot well enough for field conditions and that's plenty good. My best shooting and most consistent hunting rifle is a Remington model 700, 270 short mag. It will shoot 1" moa, and isn't picky about the loads. I leave the moa conversations to the precision shooters with precision equipment. Not many "Shooters" shoot as well as their equiment, and that hurts their egos. lol
I'm confused, this isn't difficult at all once your zeroed in, especially at 100yards. I could do this all day at 100yards without issue, 200yards+ ill start to struggle to keep it that tight.
Brother, in the beginning, I had you as a average gun nerd. After watching many of your vlogs I figured out that you are a TRUE SHOOTER, through and through! I love whatcha do and the info I get from you helps me to learn as a shooter. Honestly, if you're a hunter, the cold bore shot is the most important one! Deers don't wait for a second shot. You drop it or ya don't. We wait for HOURS with a cold barrel. Love n light to you and keep on shootin straight. Doc,,Hendrsonsonville, NC.
Deers?
Excuse me?? I'm pretty sure you know what a fkn deer is. What, are you an English teacher?? What are you asking here?@@highlandermachineworks5795
Consistent Minute of Bad Guy or Vitals of Game Animal is all that's needed. The use of silhouette targets helps shooters understand this over bullseye targets.
0.75 MOA GUARANTEE*
*not really
At 68 years old and a former competitive shooter decades ago I am happy with the 1 MOA claims from the Manufacturers. I have made great shots at long ranges in front of witnesses but I haven't shot any game at more than 200 yards even in the High Desert of Southwest Idaho and Southeast Oregon. I would feel uncomfortable shooting at deer or elk at over 400 yards.
I got one at 360 yards this year, it took me 5 min to make that shot
👍 I appreciate your comment.
I don’t shoot at game at super long distances. I hunt with 30-06 or 300 Win Mag and I know my guns are capable but I don’t just lob bullets down range and hope I hit an animal and hurt it. It’s unethical.
@@dozer1642 It was very ethical, and I was using .308 federal terminal ascent
I wasn’t being critical of your comment. 360yds isn’t too far if the conditions are predictable. I’ve talked with hunters that brag about wounding game out at 700yds with Hail Mary shots. Not my kind of hunters. ✌️🇺🇸👍
@@dozer1642 I completely agree
Would be interesting to see real world accuracy testing of major rifle brands
My tikka t3x lite stainless shoots match ammo .5 to 1 moa out of the box with a fouled bore. The accuracy issue here is likely load and shooter.
Love this guy! Just stumbled on this channel, and it’s hitting the spot. The right amount of science, guns, and humor. Jolly good time, good on chap!
I'm partial to the 5 shot groups, the best group I have had so far is .72 most of course are higher and quite a few are over the 1" mark. Some days I go to the range and shoot 1 group and pack up because I'm not feeling it, other days not a problem to shoot 50 rounds and all decent groups. I'm shooting 6.5 Creedmoor for these groups. PS enjoying the new content on the Backfire 2 channel, glad to see it is revitalized.
50 rounds of 6.5 - has got to be expensive economics if everytime you go to the range. I shoot 50 or more rounds of 22LR (or .223 ) trainer 3-5 times a week and it taxes my wallet. I save my large Cal ELR rounds for splashing metal out past 1000 on competition days. It's not unusual to go through couple of hundred dollars in developed hand loads during a weekend competition 5-6 times a year.
@@marw1920 50 handholds is still expensive, I don't do that often usually a lot less and your right 22lr is budget friendly
@@daveknowles3055 Yep, when economics work out for me - I go the way of handloads. But I really enjoy shooting 22LR trainers on a windy day at the 100.
MOA new term to me.
By Scott E. Mayer
What is a MOA?
MOA stands for "Minute Of Angle," which is a unit of angular measurement. When the accuracy of a gun is given in minutes of angle, it is possible for a person to know approximately what size groups the gun shoots within its effective range.
There are 360 degrees in a circle, and 60 minutes of arc in each degree, totaling 21,600 minutes of angle in a complete circle. Imagine the shooter is at the center of a circle, and that the target is on the edge of that circle. The distance, or range, from the shooter to the target is also the radius [R] of the circle. For any given range or radius [R], one minute is equal to (2) x (Π) x (R) / (21,600).
If the range is 100 yards, that distance is equal to 3,600 inches. When we plug 3,600 in for R in our formula, the result is (2) x (3.1416) x (3,600) / (21,600) = 1.0472 inches. Therefore, at 100 yards, one MOA is equal to 1.0472 inches. The formula works for any range. If the range is 500 yards, one MOA equals 5.2360 inches.
Many shooters equate one MOA to one inch at 100 yards, 2 inches at 200 yards, and so on. Often, they will call a gun that shoots one-inch groups at 100 yards a "one-MOA gun." Since targets are usually on an inch grid, and sight adjustments in fractions of an inch, the difference between "true" minutes of angle and "shooters'" minutes of angle is academic at close range.
Average of two 7 shot groups would probably be the best option of the accuracy standards you listed. Larger groups would be better, 9 Hole Reviews and I think it was Bloke on the Range explained the statistics as to why a 9 shot group is around the minimum needed to get a good idea of accuracy, hence how 9 Hole got its name.
It’s all relative
@@OutsidetheEchochamber….No, it isn’t? There a a cone of deviation that a firearm produces which is how accurate it can be, and by having enough shots in a group that can be statistically determined, there’s nothing relative about it.
@@WiiR4Him for how long
@@OutsidetheEchochamberWhat do you mean “for how long”?
@@WiiR4Him at what temperature
Hornady did 2 really awesome videos on the subject of MOA and group sizes. They pretty much proved through extensive testing that virtually noone has a 1 moa rifle. The only reason people think they do is because their group sizes are too small and they really have proved their rifle.
What videos are they
So what? You should keep shooting till you shoot out your barrel and fail or what?
@@TheBeefSlayer No? It's about knowing how far you can realistically hit a target with a few shots.
That Hornady podcast is fantastic!
@@TheBeefSlayer wtf are you talking about? He's talking about statistical group sizes, as in, the number of shots being compared.
I assumed that when testing they used a legit arrested locked down set up like laser bore sighed etc etc etc.
Rather than taking a vote for sample size you could just use the well defined statistical test standards. For a 95% confidence interval (on both sides) of a 1-sample t-test to detect a 1 MOA group (if the standard error of the group is defined by the manufacture to be 1.0 MOA) then you need 14 to 15 points. This means 95% of the time you could measure the spread of the rifle to within 1 MOA (it could be less) with 14-15 shots. So, you intuition is spot on for how many samples you need. - Or, maybe you know more statistics than you let on and had already looked up the correct sample size to determine the accuracy of the rifle to 1 MOA. Any reasonable engineer is familiar with this math (which all of those manufactures have in house) so your conclusion about the intention of the manufactures regarding their warranties is reasonable.
jesus, finally someone who proposes using actual statistics. You're right, it doesn't even have to be anything really technical, a simple t-test will suffice in this situation to give a shooter a good idea of what's going on
Watch the video again and try listening this go round
I picked up a Browning X-bolt in 30-06 when it first came out. My first 3 shot group (including the cold bore shot) was at 100 yards was .70” - Yes, it was only 3 shots and I was using match-grade ammo, but I was quite pleased.
I’m not saying it’ll do that well every time, and I fully understand your main point about “we ignore the average” … but doing it in its FIRST group spoke volumes to me.
There is nothing special about the first group compared to the second group or thirteenth group.
@@sapago4166 by “first group” I really mean “right out of the box with zero tuning.” You’re right that no one group is significantly different than another if no changes have been made - it was just that it made such a group first try and it continues to do as well regularly.
@Mike-B-Jackson I have a Ruger American in .308 that shot a .7" first 3-shot group and a .8" second 3-shot group. Then it shot a 1.5" 3-shot group.
Then I switched ammo, and it didn't shoot less than a 2" group.
Is it a .7 MOA rifle, a 1.5 MOA rifle, or a 2 MOA rifle?
@@sapago4166 I didn’t realize the comment-police were going to be online today. I should’ve also mentioned it always performs. Around .7-1 moa. My original point was experiencing that out of the box was nice. Can’t deny that.
@@Mike-B-Jackson LOL. Good point. I am taking this a bit too seriously. I'm a huge fan of Browning shotguns and the Browning Buckmark pistol. It sounds like you have a fine shooting rifle.
The whole concept of measuring a rifle's precision is mathematically flawed from the very beginning, there's a video on TH-cam about why 5 shot groups are garbage. Measuring precision takes hundreds or even thousands of shots, and even then the confidence isn't great. We can tell when one rifle is more precise than the other, but statistically quantifying it is a nightmare of a task
Thank you for pointing all of this out! As a longtime fan, I think it would be beneficial to make a video of all of the guns from old videos (if you still own them, or if the gun is still pertinent today) and publish these statistics, with and without a cold bore.
Fun fact: outside of competition shooting, you almost never need a gun to shoot better than 2-3 MOA. Even a sniper can still hit a human sized target at 1000 yards (a shot he will very rarely be in a position to take) with a 2 MOA rifle 80%+ of the time.
Uhhh no. A 2 MOA rifle at 1000 yards would be more than 20" off point of aim. A 3 MOA rifle would be 30" off. That would mean aiming center of mass the bullet would be expected to pass the target a full arms length away.
0:54 i guess the name glock was already taken? 😂
Now glass bed and check the difference
Hear that ladies, 1.82" is average!
RE: 3 shots ... poor test at least 5 shots , 10 is better
I just did it.
From 6".
The range was not specified.
I win. 😊
Still waiting for my money. 😐
Great video, brother 👊
Great video again - so for any hunting rifle where your taking an average or 1 shot ( deer - elk etc ) does it make sense then to make sure your gun is perfectly sighted to that first shot with a clean and cold bore and not care as much about where follow up shots hit with a warmed foulded barrel. The know we are splitting hairs since as long as we can hit vitals we are going on target. But this does pose a question. Is that first shot of the day at the range the most important to dial in accuracy? Just a thought
It comes down to consistency.
A ruger American may occasionally shoot 1 moa but not every group.
A proper built $3k rifle will shoot consistent-sized groups every time.
This is an excellent video, as expected comment section full of sub moa snipers .
Glad you enjoyed!
Bought a new Savage 110 Desert Tactical in 6.5 PRC. Would only shoot a 3" group at 100 yards until I changed the barrel. Now it shots about a 1/2 MOA. group at 100. Manufacturers need to quit advertising that their rifles will shoot 1 MOA groups.