I was told years ago, in a tool room, ;” A man who knows his shit, can explain it so you can learn from him. And if he can’t explain it, he doesn’t know it.” Then there is ; “ Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed”.
That is by FAR the best explanation of the differences between 1st and 2nd focal planes. Thank you so much for the time that you spent to do this for us. Much appreciated! 👍
@@VortexOpticsUSA My 29fpe magnum spring piston pellet gun, (the most powerful spring pellet guns), destroyed a new Crossfire 2 scope within 200 shots, cross hairs not lining up now. Don't feel bad, not to many scopes will survive those mag springers, (If you want to test, use the Hatsan 135 .30 cal. break barrel piston gun. It is the king of scope killers.). If you guys could make a light 3-9X40, (I like my 3-9X33 Leupold, very light), with adjustable objective, (side adjustment even better), with a 4 or 5 mill dot reticle, that can hold up to at least 5000 shots with pellet on the heavy side, and advertise it well, for under $300.00,----you guys will have a winner. Nobody else has done that, and can't prove the scope holds up. There is a void in that market that could be filled correctly. Nobody has tested any for thousands of shots before the vids come out, and many that were said to be great are breaking. Almost every new mag spring gun buyer will go through one or two scopes before they find one that is "OK". None of them will hold zero from week to week, (shooting every day), and the best need a click or 4 to get back on target every week or two. Test it "good" for 5000 shots, and it is worth 300 bucks to a lot of mag spring airgun owners, on all their guns. Doug in Michigan
I've always been an iron sights guy, but my aging eyes have forced me into the optics world and I would always get flustered trying to figure this out between these two types of scopes. This has been the BEST explanation I've seen by far, I now know which one I want. Thank you.
iv never had great eyesight ..not deteriorating but astigmatism .( rugby ball , reather than ping pong ball shaped eyes) my prescript hasnt changed in 30 years . so iv always used scopes , im a big fan of ffp as the crosshair zooms in so does the whole picture . so the gaps between the dots and your impact area stays the same to the micro mil dots on 4x to the maxed out dots on 16 x + the cross will never hide your target .. much more micro accurate 0
Assuming you don't have astigmatism a red dot with or without a magnifier is a nice way to (almost) achieve the simplicity of the good ol' iron sights.
The problem that I came across with aging eyes using FFP; you have to turn the power to 7/8 power magnification just to be able to see the reticles, but a problem with the SFP scope where the reticles stay the same throughout the change, but they still change some; unnoticed; I have both types.
Having the image of the scope zoom in and out helped my brain as you explained it. Whoever had the idea to keep the image up constantly understands the human brain.
Not necessarily the highest: I have the SFP scope that he showed and the BDC reticle is true at 20x power, despite it being able to reach 24x magnification. There’s usually a red mark on the magnification adjustment ring and you feel a click when you are at the right power.
@@GunGuy258 The old Hawke scopes with the MAP6 reticle, was calibrated for 6x, regardless of min and max magnifications. I cannot remember the website (was linked the BSA Owners Group website that closed a few years ago), but I printed off targets that were designed to check what magnification the reticle was calibrated for, just had to adjust the mag until the mildots lined up with those on the target, then zero and shoot on that magnification, it was great for SFP optics that didn't state the calibrated magnification. I just photocopy more as I need them now.
This is finally an explanation that isn’t too complicated to understand. Many years in the shooting community and never fully understood the difference until now. Still don’t know ALL of the differences and pros/cons but this definitely cleared most of the confusion up. Thanks.
I stay away from the FFP scopes for exactly the reason you stated about the reticle being too small on low power. As far as the hold over on an SFP, I just go to the range to figure out which hash marks work at what ranges, and at what power. IMO you really only need 2 powers to figure out. Full Power is easy..it's already there, so I would concentrate on the lowest power, and somewhere in the middle. Great vid.
I only use FFP now and yes at low zoom the target is small and harder to place a shot especially when you have aging eye sight. Luckily my scopes are clear at full zoom from 12 yards out otherwise I'd be using second focal scope.. close shooting is good for ratting but most my shots are over 30 yard so my ratting scope is digital day/night vision. Hunting is ffp scopes. 👍
Thank you very much for presenting this subject in a clear manner. You were neutral on each reticle type, and did not talk down to your viewers. Not once did you say; “ This is what I use, you will really like it.” You did well in presenting the advantages and disadvantages, as well as the best applications for each scope type.
Perfectly spoken!! Just a comment to the “double duty” you spoke of towards the end- I know I’m going to rifle some feathers with this but here it goes… IN MY OPINION, if you have enough coin to sink into a rifle that you will be using for PRS matches; you have enough money to set up a separate, hunting-dedicated rig.
Great video, very simply explained. I have to say , I have been shooting for years, and never used the scales. I just know how each gun shoots and how high I need to aim for drop. But I never have had any real training, just been shooting since a kid .
This is in my opinion the very best video explaining the difference between SFP and FFP. I always show my friends this video so they can get an understanding. And this time I'm here because I want a SFP for hunting. Max range I'd take a shot is 600 yards and that's the absolute Max I could if I wanted. My last year's hunt was just as you said, not ideal with a FFP. I learned a ton from that season and now I want a 4-16x50 SFP with an illuminated reticle. I think this is the best setup for hunting. You really only need to shoot up to 300 yards or less and the center of the reticle is perfect to handle that. 4 power zoom for up close shots and 16 for 300+. 50mm objective lens is an excellent size for night time shooting and with an illuminated reticle on a low setting is just the perfect setup. Now if only Vortex made this 🤔
Great video, best explanation on the differences between FFP and SFP I've seen. I was a great shooter until age started taking away my vision. Glad scopes can compensate for poor eye sight and allow me to continue enjoying long range shooting.
When I started this video, I already generally understood the differences enough to have already ordered a FFP scope last night. The thought in my head was "why do we really need more than 1 or 2 good videos about FFP vs. SFP", because I have seen SO MANY of them that have similar content, basically redundant. This video, however, had several practical "why" nuances that really tie things together. Interestingly... when it was pointed out in the beginning that the CENTER point on a SFP scope still works at any power as long as you're dialing... I almost second guessed my decision to go with FFP. Once the FFP nuances were reinforced, however, the FFP decision became clear & obvious once again, because it's the only option that enables rapid holdovers at any power, which seems like a skill ANY rifleman should have available.
You don’t have to dial to use sfp center point. It’s true through the zooming process. You’ll always hit if you’re using the center of the reticle. You only have to dial with sfp if you’re using a compensating reticle.
I love how clear, concise, & really easy to understand your video was. I'm a beginner recreational shooter wanting to get into long range, this is exactly what I needed to know what kind of scope to buy! Thank you for explaining everything so easily so I don't waste money on extra features I'll never use.
This is the best unbiased honest explanation of both SFP vs FFP I've watched. Im in the need for a new scope for a new setup. Im a hunter and do a bit of F open when I can't hunt. I hunt in close with occasional long shots and anywhere from 600-1000 yards competition in prone. SFP will be perfect for my needs. Appreciate this video very much
You did a great job explaining the difference between first and second focal plane. You made it much easier for the average person to understand what's going on thank you
I sold my ACOG with the intention of grabbing a ffp 1-8 viper. Right after I got caught in a tornado, it flipped my truck somewhere between BFE and the middle of nowhere. It burst into flames a total loss. I have since replaced the truck and am now saving up for the viper. I'm getting that scope. I've heard nothing but positive about it. We love ya'lls stuff.
My second focal plane was the tool wall. It’ll be way more crowded as tools are needed and bought. I’m always amazed that, when a tool is purchased for a specific job, suddenly I discover how useful it is for so many other tasks.
I have watched several videos discussing the differences between FFP & SFP. This is by far the most comprehensive and informative I have seen. Thank you for this video.
Just started shooting at long range . Sometimes you get intimidated by the big shooters at the range and don't want to ask and then get a weird look. Keep up the great defining uses of the focal points.
Leave it to Vortex to ''knock it out of the park'' , when it comes to explaining this topic! Very well done Vortex , you get all gold stars in my book! And one more thing, thanks for your awesome warranty with my AR scope cap, even when it was my fault ! Always a fan!
I think I knew that , but your explanation is the best I have seen. Thanks again. I have a Vortex Diamondback FFP 6-24 and its incredible value for money.
I like this explanation its clear and concise. For me when I was young and had eyes like and eagle If I needed a scope I liked FFP. Now as an old warrior my eyes not so good I need SFP because not only is it hard to see the target its hard to see the reticle.
Vortex, NightForce, Kahles, etc these companies (and some companies for other parts of a gun) are really the pinnacle of customer service. You call and they will talk to you like a buddy giving you the benefit of their expertise. Vortex is exceptional. I started my LPVO journey on my AR type rifles with Vortex (exceptional) you call and ask a question you get some amazing benefit of expertise. It is not like calling your phone carrier where you feel like they try to upsell or whatever. These folks actually will spend the time helping. Anyhow, if you need clarification or expertise most will have web series but the real benefit is the personal support. We often feel our questions are unique so we need to ask in our own words. These people WILL help. Take advantage of it. And they’ll be enthusiasts as well. They WANT to help. Use them. Vortex thanks for a great product and great staff.
This is the only explanation that I actually understood. I have been watching and reading and couldn't understand wtf the difference was thanks for the great explanation
Very helpful, everything I needed to know about FFP and SFP scopes to help me with my decision, and all in the one easy to watch and listen vid. The animation was VERY helpful.
Thank you Vortex Nation for all the valuable videos explaining pretty much anything you can think of regarding optics. I’m an old timer who’s been around guns my whole life who just never got around to purchasing a really good long range rifle. Through these videos and from choosing first or second focal plane, magnification choices, MOA vs MRAD, reticles in detail, fine tune focus to deal with parallax error, illumination options, to eye relief, can know rest assured that I chose the right scope for my application. I’m extremely happy with my Viper PST Gen II (FFP MOA) and even more satisfied in that the staff at Vortex has taken the time to provide all of the accurate information I needed to make the right choice, all in one place here on this channel.
Wow! As has been stated, you did an awesome job! Best part is you didn't flood the talk with tons of acronyms. But Best of all is the PIP with the reticle, so we can see what you're talking about. I went with a Vortex SFP on my Grendel I love it & now I have a better understanding of how to get the most out of it. Thanks again!
A great explanation. It seems apparent 1st focal plane is great for medium to long range with hash marks being correct for fast target acquisition. However my 2nd focal plane scope can use the hash marks at any magnification if you look at a holdover chart that corresponds for the magnification you are set at. Or you just remember the holdover marks at one location such as on full power. Otherwise you can simply just dial the turret up or down based on your scopes zero setting with knowing your target distance.
Excellent tutorial. This is the most clear, honest explanation of the pros and cons of each FFP and SFP I’ve come across. “Despite how awesome it sounds on the internet” 😝 Well said! If I shot long range (300+ yards) regularly or hunted in Montana, FFP would be great. Where I live, the chances of you seeing a deer (or anything else) 1,000 feet away are really low unless you’re on the interstate. Also means magnification over 10x is more of a liability than an asset. I got a 4.5-14x scope years ago when I lived elsewhere. Great scope but a fixed 4.5x would work just fine here.
Decades ago, I bought a Shepherd Scope based on the recommendation of the 9ID MTU and a couple of snipers in 2/75 Ranger Bn. I paired it with a .308 M1A. I told the folks at Shepherd that I wanted the reticle configured for Federal Gold Match 168gr BTHP. If I use a heavier weight or lighter weight load, I have to compensate accordingly. But with Federal Gold Match, my rounds can be covered with a dime at 200 yards. I changed the stock just a few years ago to the new Archangel platform and all that bumping around changing the stocks didn’t move the zero even a little bit.
I just ordered my first scope, it's a vortex strike eagle 1x8. I am trying to learn about these Scopes and your video is helping me out alot. Thank you and I hope the strike eagle is just as good and reliable as my vortex as my strikefire II.
Awesome video that explained a complex subject in layman's terms and made it understandable. I was not sure which one was right for long range target shooting for my son and I.
Thanks, very thorough and well structured. ...I’ve been through the ringer looking for the right scope for my personal needs and this tutorial really dove deep, but in straight forward way that was easy to follow. Thanks, and as a lifelong bow hunter that is exploring rifles for the first time, this type of info really helps.
Thanks for the explanation, I just bought a Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44 Dead-Hold BDC MOA Riflescope. I wasn’t sure about the SFP this video helped a lot. Wasn’t sure if I made a mistake not getting one with the resettable zero Turrets but I think this will be good once I get it zeroed.
You left out two important points in your painfully short video that most Airgun channels cover when talking about the difference between SFP and FFP rifle optics, and that's the reason FFP optics were developed in the first place: *Eliminating changes in Point of Impact and angular measurement while retaining versatility at varying magnifications.* First-Focal Plane rifle optics are not intended for professional competition or reflexive shooting, _Fixed magnification_ parallax adjustable optics are. First-Focal Plane rifle optics are intended for use where the user will be changing magnification frequently where absolute accuracy and reliability is more important than time spent or scoring. Situations like range-finding, reconnaissance, or variations in range all will require shifts in magnification that with a SFP optic will cause your POI to shift away from your POA as you dial your power up and down to obtain more accurate measurements or better field of view. FFP optics solve this issue by placing the reticle on a plane where the zero point of a given shooting system remains the same across all levels of magnification, allowing the user to shift magnification to range estimate, apply holds for wind and elevation, aim at smaller targets, or obtain a wider field of view/greater light capture without changing POI relative to POA. *Under the vast majority of circumstances a Second-Focal Plane Variable-Power optic, or a Fixed-Power optic, is sufficient for any task, so long as parallax can be accounted for and the proper time and effort is spent learning and understanding one's optic and its relationship to the ballistics of their setup.* First-Focal Plane optics are for special applications where the user _can reasonably expect_ to be changing magnification a LOT. In my case, I shoot airguns for pest control and recreation, so I am constantly changing magnifications, and use a 4-14x40 FFP MRAD BTR riflescope. My pellets have a maximum point-blank range of 50 yards on a 3 inch target, a maximum ETHICAL range of 75 yards for a 1 inch kill zone at 17fpe on small pest animals(starlings, raccoons, possums, squirrels, pigeons, designated feral cats, wild rabbits, ground hogs, gophers. This list IS exhaustive. I do not shoot any other living creature outside of circumstances where I am ordered to by law enforcement or animal control, and never outside of this range.), and a maximum EFFECTIVE range of 150 yards on *non-living targets* such as paper, bottles, cans, stumps, balls, spinners, flippers, etc. For pest control I leave my scope at 4x power and can guarantee an ethical, instantly lethal, shot on any small game animal that spans one mil in calm conditions. Anything smaller than a squirrel, any wind greater than 5mph, any time I need to range a target, or even just to identify an animal to see if it's actually a target I've been paid to shoot or something I should leave alone, I increase my magnification.
Great explanation with great visualization animation! I have something to add about 2nd plane not being able to use a reticle to make holdovers. It's not quite an accurate statement, you can use it, just that it gets a bit more tricky. Keep in mind what I'm about to write comes from a man who has pretty much only used 1st plane and is not a native English speaker. If you see a mistake regarding technical language or principles of optics let me know. In 2nd plane optics, you'll find on the magnification scale one of the numbers is marked with a square (or other marking) around it. That tells you the magnification at which the scale is exactly correct. In this example, we use the MIL system and optic with 3-24 magnification. In this example optic has the number 8 marked. Since we know that 10 clicks are 1 MIL (in most cases) and our example rifle at 500m needs 40 click correction we also know that at the 8x magnification, we can use 4.0 MIL holdover and we will hit the target. Now about the tricky part using other magnifications. You can still use the scale on your reticle, but you'll need to ''translate'' it to correspond with your known click values. For example, now we are still shooting 500m and our gun still has a known click value of 40 clicks at this distance, but we are using 16x (twice as big) magnification. Now our reticle is still the same size, but proportionally to the target, it is twice as big (at 8x Magnification, for example, the target appeared at 5 MIL size, now it appears as 10 MIL size) meaning MIL value has decreased by half (when magnification is twice as big), which also means now if we want to shoot using holdover, instead of 4.0 MIL we need to aim at 8.0 MIL holdover and we will hit the target. Same for 24x magnification- it's 3x larger than 8x meaning we need to use 3x bigger holdover than at 8x. In our current example 4.0 MILx 3=12 MIL holdover. The same principle goes for using half the magnification 4x, now we would need half the MIL holdover to hit the target- 2 MIL. It's somewhat simple to translate it when magnification is round numbers bigger or smaller than the default correct magnification. It gets tricky using another magnification size for example 11x in our case. 11x is 1.375 times bigger than 8x magnification, which would mean in our example we would need to aim 5.5 MIL holdover (4.0x1.375= 5.5), but is that the kind of math you want to do? Plus you can still use the scale to make corrections after a missed shot regardless of magnification. Let's say you missed the 500m target and it went 3 MIL to the right, but you are using a random 11x magnification, do you now need to translate it to the correct value? Yes and No. If you want to correct the next shot with clicks then you need to make that calculation, but why would you? You can use that 3 MIL miss as a reference and hold 3 MIL left using the same magnification.
Right on! Each definitely have their own place and application, but it really comes down to a lot of personal preference. Thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation! :)
Just picked up a Vortex Viper 6-24 ×50 ffp XLR (MOA), Vortex rings, Nightforce standard 0 moa base (steel bedded to action), HS Precision M24 kevlar/glass stock. Redoing my R700 SPS. Machined and threaded bolt handle 5/16 × 24 for oversized knob. Haven't had it to the range yet. Can't wait to see what the Vortex can do! Thanks for the great video. Accurately explained the whole ffp/sfp concept.
Thank you, thak you, thank you. I had no clue what a "first focal plane" or a 'second focal place' scope was. Now I know. Excellent video and fantastic explanation of both!
Great video explaining the different of FFP and SFP...! Getting my first real good scope, only had one before, so this helped considerably in my choosing the right one!
Most excellent informative video ever to explain the difference. Thank you. Now I understand what was confusing about first vs second focal plane scopes. By the way, I am super happy with my Vortex Crossfire II 3x9x40. It is superior! 😊
Well done! I got a ffp strike eagle 5-25 and if I had watched this video first I may have got the sfp. hunting coyotes up close and personal is a bit difficult on 5-8 power with that tiny reticle. illumination does help as mentioned.
Great customer service, great product. Bought 4 vortex sights, I have nothing but great experiences. Lastly the vortex strike Eagle 1-8 has got to be the best bang for your buck.
Shot SFP scopes for 25 years and finally got good glas with FFP. It's plain as day. When you know your range cards you can park rounds so much closer so much more consistently. Yeah the reticle is hard to see at low power but you don't need much for hold-overs or windage corrections at ranges where you need low power to begin with. FFP is win win in my 30 years of shooting.
Fantastic explanation!! Thanks for the concise and thorough writing here. There's so much bad information out there on which is best. I don't plan to hunt but have been eyeing competitive shooting at extremely long distances. It Seems my choice is now obvious.
Great sir Today i see ur vedio abut1st &2nd f plane I m hunting since 10 years but today i know that , some one loves and giving time to ours hobby Great job to be continue Keep it up ,
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
It is amazing how much you can understand when someone has the ability explain so well....this video is priceless!
I was told years ago, in a tool room, ;” A man who knows his shit, can explain it so you can learn from him. And if he can’t explain it, he doesn’t know it.” Then there is ; “ Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed”.
@@robertqueberg4612 lol good one !
Proof that you're not dumb, you just have dumb friends.
Erred
That is by FAR the best explanation of the differences between 1st and 2nd focal planes.
Thank you so much for the time that you spent to do this for us.
Much appreciated! 👍
Thanks for watching!
Excellent explanation of the difference between the two types of scopes. Thank you, no confusion now !
Very much appreciated!! When someone takes their time(and he took his time) to explain in detail that is better than reading any manual.
@@joel11230 Totally agree.
And he did it in a way like he was sitting across from you, making sure you understood.
@@VortexOpticsUSA My 29fpe magnum spring piston pellet gun, (the most powerful spring pellet guns), destroyed a new Crossfire 2 scope within 200 shots, cross hairs not lining up now. Don't feel bad, not to many scopes will survive those mag springers, (If you want to test, use the Hatsan 135 .30 cal. break barrel piston gun. It is the king of scope killers.). If you guys could make a light 3-9X40, (I like my 3-9X33 Leupold, very light), with adjustable objective, (side adjustment even better), with a 4 or 5 mill dot reticle, that can hold up to at least 5000 shots with pellet on the heavy side, and advertise it well, for under $300.00,----you guys will have a winner. Nobody else has done that, and can't prove the scope holds up.
There is a void in that market that could be filled correctly. Nobody has tested any for thousands of shots before the vids come out, and many that were said to be great are breaking. Almost every new mag spring gun buyer will go through one or two scopes before they find one that is "OK". None of them will hold zero from week to week, (shooting every day), and the best need a click or 4 to get back on target every week or two. Test it "good" for 5000 shots, and it is worth 300 bucks to a lot of mag spring airgun owners, on all their guns.
Doug in Michigan
That is probably the best explanation of first and second focal planes I've ever heard.
I've always been an iron sights guy, but my aging eyes have forced me into the optics world and I would always get flustered trying to figure this out between these two types of scopes. This has been the BEST explanation I've seen by far, I now know which one I want. Thank you.
Agreed
Thanks for the feedback! We'll keep putting out more videos like this and if you have any other questions don't hesitate to let us know!
iv never had great eyesight ..not deteriorating but astigmatism .( rugby ball , reather than ping pong ball shaped eyes) my prescript hasnt changed in 30 years . so iv always used scopes , im a big fan of ffp as the crosshair zooms in so does the whole picture . so the gaps between the dots and your impact area stays the same to the micro mil dots on 4x to the maxed out dots on 16 x + the cross will never hide your target .. much more micro accurate 0
Assuming you don't have astigmatism a red dot with or without a magnifier is a nice way to (almost) achieve the simplicity of the good ol' iron sights.
The problem that I came across with aging eyes using FFP; you have to turn the power to 7/8 power magnification just to be able to see the reticles, but a problem with the SFP scope where the reticles stay the same throughout the change, but they still change some; unnoticed; I have both types.
Having the image of the scope zoom in and out helped my brain as you explained it. Whoever had the idea to keep the image up constantly understands the human brain.
Don't know what it is about this guy....but I like him! Vortex found a good rep
Refreshing not to hear any "ums" and "ahs" when you present the material. Excellent delivery and content!
Best explanation I’ve ever heard on this topic!!!
By a land slide, watching other people's videos just got me more and more confused
@@jk_46 exactly mate cheers Yogi Australia 🇦🇺 🤙🤙
What a great instructor. Good Job, Vortex.
This is the best explanation of the differences between first and second focal plane I have heard.
Thank you for this. Now I know why my BDC never worked right. Had no clue it had to be highest power. Very good video, I learned a lot.
Not necessarily the highest: I have the SFP scope that he showed and the BDC reticle is true at 20x power, despite it being able to reach 24x magnification. There’s usually a red mark on the magnification adjustment ring and you feel a click when you are at the right power.
@@VincitOmniaVeritas7 thank you.
@@GunGuy258 The old Hawke scopes with the MAP6 reticle, was calibrated for 6x, regardless of min and max magnifications.
I cannot remember the website (was linked the BSA Owners Group website that closed a few years ago), but I printed off targets that were designed to check what magnification the reticle was calibrated for, just had to adjust the mag until the mildots lined up with those on the target, then zero and shoot on that magnification, it was great for SFP optics that didn't state the calibrated magnification. I just photocopy more as I need them now.
This is finally an explanation that isn’t too complicated to understand. Many years in the shooting community and never fully understood the difference until now. Still don’t know ALL of the differences and pros/cons but this definitely cleared most of the confusion up. Thanks.
I have brain injury...I fell for the bdc ...
I'm sure like others have too...the marketing
Made them big bucks im sure
I stay away from the FFP scopes for exactly the reason you stated about the reticle being too small on low power. As far as the hold over on an SFP, I just go to the range to figure out which hash marks work at what ranges, and at what power. IMO you really only need 2 powers to figure out. Full Power is easy..it's already there, so I would concentrate on the lowest power, and somewhere in the middle. Great vid.
I only use FFP now and yes at low zoom the target is small and harder to place a shot especially when you have aging eye sight. Luckily my scopes are clear at full zoom from 12 yards out otherwise I'd be using second focal scope.. close shooting is good for ratting but most my shots are over 30 yard so my ratting scope is digital day/night vision. Hunting is ffp scopes. 👍
Thank you very much for presenting this subject in a clear manner. You were neutral on each reticle type, and did not talk down to your viewers. Not once did you say; “ This is what I use, you will really like it.” You did well in presenting the advantages and disadvantages, as well as the best applications for each scope type.
Perfectly spoken!! Just a comment to the “double duty” you spoke of towards the end- I know I’m going to rifle some feathers with this but here it goes… IN MY OPINION, if you have enough coin to sink into a rifle that you will be using for PRS matches; you have enough money to set up a separate, hunting-dedicated rig.
Great video, very simply explained. I have to say , I have been shooting for years, and never used the scales. I just know how each gun shoots and how high I need to aim for drop. But I never have had any real training, just been shooting since a kid .
This is in my opinion the very best video explaining the difference between SFP and FFP. I always show my friends this video so they can get an understanding. And this time I'm here because I want a SFP for hunting. Max range I'd take a shot is 600 yards and that's the absolute Max I could if I wanted. My last year's hunt was just as you said, not ideal with a FFP. I learned a ton from that season and now I want a 4-16x50 SFP with an illuminated reticle. I think this is the best setup for hunting. You really only need to shoot up to 300 yards or less and the center of the reticle is perfect to handle that. 4 power zoom for up close shots and 16 for 300+. 50mm objective lens is an excellent size for night time shooting and with an illuminated reticle on a low setting is just the perfect setup. Now if only Vortex made this 🤔
Im a visual learner. While the explanation was great, the example scope on the side was a great help
Great video, best explanation on the differences between FFP and SFP I've seen. I was a great shooter until age started taking away my vision. Glad scopes can compensate for poor eye sight and allow me to continue enjoying long range shooting.
When I started this video, I already generally understood the differences enough to have already ordered a FFP scope last night. The thought in my head was "why do we really need more than 1 or 2 good videos about FFP vs. SFP", because I have seen SO MANY of them that have similar content, basically redundant. This video, however, had several practical "why" nuances that really tie things together. Interestingly... when it was pointed out in the beginning that the CENTER point on a SFP scope still works at any power as long as you're dialing... I almost second guessed my decision to go with FFP. Once the FFP nuances were reinforced, however, the FFP decision became clear & obvious once again, because it's the only option that enables rapid holdovers at any power, which seems like a skill ANY rifleman should have available.
You don’t have to dial to use sfp center point. It’s true through the zooming process. You’ll always hit if you’re using the center of the reticle. You only have to dial with sfp if you’re using a compensating reticle.
I love how clear, concise, & really easy to understand your video was. I'm a beginner recreational shooter wanting to get into long range, this is exactly what I needed to know what kind of scope to buy! Thank you for explaining everything so easily so I don't waste money on extra features I'll never use.
One of the most coherent explanations of focal planes I've ever seen.
Thank you Pieter from Namibia you are the first one that explane the diffrance between first and second Focal plane that i understand.
This is the best unbiased honest explanation of both SFP vs FFP I've watched. Im in the need for a new scope for a new setup. Im a hunter and do a bit of F open when I can't hunt. I hunt in close with occasional long shots and anywhere from 600-1000 yards competition in prone. SFP will be perfect for my needs. Appreciate this video very much
Thank you very much for presenting this subject in a clear manner
You are very welcome, Joe! :)
You did a great job explaining the difference between first and second focal plane. You made it much easier for the average person to understand what's going on thank you
I sold my ACOG with the intention of grabbing a ffp 1-8 viper. Right after I got caught in a tornado, it flipped my truck somewhere between BFE and the middle of nowhere. It burst into flames a total loss. I have since replaced the truck and am now saving up for the viper. I'm getting that scope. I've heard nothing but positive about it. We love ya'lls stuff.
You deserve the damn scope. Good luck
My second focal plane was the tool wall. It’ll be way more crowded as tools are needed and bought.
I’m always amazed that, when a tool is purchased for a specific job, suddenly I discover how useful it is for so many other tasks.
I have watched several videos discussing the differences between FFP & SFP. This is by far the most comprehensive and informative I have seen. Thank you for this video.
I use an old Redfield wide view 3X9 from the 70’s on my 7mag. Love that scope.
The best explanation of 1st and 2nd focal plane I've seen by far.
Just started shooting at long range . Sometimes you get intimidated by the big shooters at the range and don't want to ask and then get a weird look. Keep up the great defining uses of the focal points.
If you ever have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out to us!
Great explanation on the differences between 1st , and 2nd focal planes. Thank you for the terrific video. !
Thank YOU for tuning in!
Leave it to Vortex to ''knock it out of the park'' , when it comes to explaining this topic! Very well done Vortex , you get all gold stars in my book! And one more thing, thanks for your awesome warranty with my AR scope cap, even when it was my fault ! Always a fan!
I think I knew that , but your explanation is the best I have seen. Thanks again. I have a Vortex Diamondback FFP 6-24 and its incredible value for money.
Thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation!
I like this explanation its clear and concise. For me when I was young and had eyes like and eagle If I needed a scope I liked FFP. Now as an old warrior my eyes not so good I need SFP because not only is it hard to see the target its hard to see the reticle.
Glad I found this video. All the abbreviations on scope terminology is frustrating so anything that helps explain how they work is very helpful.
You did a great job explaining the differences between the two. Thank you.
Vortex, NightForce, Kahles, etc these companies (and some companies for other parts of a gun) are really the pinnacle of customer service. You call and they will talk to you like a buddy giving you the benefit of their expertise. Vortex is exceptional. I started my LPVO journey on my AR type rifles with Vortex (exceptional) you call and ask a question you get some amazing benefit of expertise. It is not like calling your phone carrier where you feel like they try to upsell or whatever. These folks actually will spend the time helping. Anyhow, if you need clarification or expertise most will have web series but the real benefit is the personal support. We often feel our questions are unique so we need to ask in our own words. These people WILL help. Take advantage of it. And they’ll be enthusiasts as well. They WANT to help. Use them. Vortex thanks for a great product and great staff.
This is the only explanation that I actually understood. I have been watching and reading and couldn't understand wtf the difference was thanks for the great explanation
You are so welcome! Thank you for tuning in, we're glad you found it helpful!
Very helpful, everything I needed to know about FFP and SFP scopes to help me with my decision, and all in the one easy to watch and listen vid. The animation was VERY helpful.
Really good explanation...even I, with my simple pea brain, understood it! Kudos to you Vortex! Keep up the good work and good luck in 21!
Thank you Vortex Nation for all the valuable videos explaining pretty much anything you can think of regarding optics. I’m an old timer who’s been around guns my whole life who just never got around to purchasing a really good long range rifle. Through these videos and from choosing first or second focal plane, magnification choices, MOA vs MRAD, reticles in detail, fine tune focus to deal with parallax error, illumination options, to eye relief, can know rest assured that I chose the right scope for my application. I’m extremely happy with my Viper PST Gen II (FFP MOA) and even more satisfied in that the staff at Vortex has taken the time to provide all of the accurate information I needed to make the right choice, all in one place here on this channel.
Always happy to help, Dan in any way we can! Thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation!
Perfect. Looking into building my first long range setup, and this was immensely helpful. 👌
Great to hear! If you have any questions come up, don't hesitate to reach out.
Well Done Vortex optics!
Only if they'd make a quality US scope.
@@duckwacker8720 they make quality just sadly not US made
Outstanding review….second focal for me since I’m in the tree line although on my right has about 1000 yards open field.
This was great information! I have shared this with a bunch of my newer shooter buddies. THANK YOU VORTEX
Wow! As has been stated, you did an awesome job! Best part is you didn't flood the talk with tons of acronyms. But Best of all is the PIP with the reticle, so we can see what you're talking about. I went with a Vortex SFP on my Grendel I love it & now I have a better understanding of how to get the most out of it. Thanks again!
Glad you found it helpful! We really appreciate you tuning in. 👊
A great explanation. It seems apparent 1st focal plane is great for medium to long range with hash marks being correct for fast target acquisition. However my 2nd focal plane scope can use the hash marks at any magnification if you look at a holdover chart that corresponds for the magnification you are set at. Or you just remember the holdover marks at one location such as on full power. Otherwise you can simply just dial the turret up or down based on your scopes zero setting with knowing your target distance.
Excellent tutorial. This is the most clear, honest explanation of the pros and cons of each FFP and SFP I’ve come across.
“Despite how awesome it sounds on the internet” 😝 Well said! If I shot long range (300+ yards) regularly or hunted in Montana, FFP would be great. Where I live, the chances of you seeing a deer (or anything else) 1,000 feet away are really low unless you’re on the interstate. Also means magnification over 10x is more of a liability than an asset. I got a 4.5-14x scope years ago when I lived elsewhere. Great scope but a fixed 4.5x would work just fine here.
Decades ago, I bought a Shepherd Scope based on the recommendation of the 9ID MTU and a couple of snipers in 2/75 Ranger Bn. I paired it with a .308 M1A. I told the folks at Shepherd that I wanted the reticle configured for Federal Gold Match 168gr BTHP. If I use a heavier weight or lighter weight load, I have to compensate accordingly. But with Federal Gold Match, my rounds can be covered with a dime at 200 yards. I changed the stock just a few years ago to the new Archangel platform and all that bumping around changing the stocks didn’t move the zero even a little bit.
Finally, a clear explanation on the difference betweeen FFP and SFP. Thank-you so much
Best explanation of the difference btwn 1st & 2nd FP scopes I've run across. Thanks!
PS : And the animation was a big help!
Nicely done. Best explanation I've heard in simple terms with great graphics. Presented well, too!
Good useful information. Thanks.
I just ordered my first scope, it's a vortex strike eagle 1x8. I am trying to learn about these Scopes and your video is helping me out alot. Thank you and I hope the strike eagle is just as good and reliable as my vortex as my strikefire II.
this video just sold me on the new arken ffp riflescopes excellent quality and unreal price !!!
Nailed it . Very informative video . Going to share it with my grandchildren right after we finish watching "barn yard" later . Great !
Awesome video that explained a complex subject in layman's terms and made it understandable. I was not sure which one was right for long range target shooting for my son and I.
Vortex is simply the best!
Excellent detailed explanation of how to use the focal plane. Appreciate .Thanks
Best explanation of the focal planes that I have ever seen, thank you for that.
Definitely the best explanation of the difference between FFP and SFP I've seen. Thank you, that's helped me a lot! 👍👍👍
You bet! Let us know if you any questions!
Most helpful video. I will never miss again!
Excellent summary, Buddy. Whenever asked, I got to take a second to remember which is what.
Great video! Had no idea there was even a such thing as first and second focal plain.
Excellent video, I put the Viper HS second focal plane on my Remington 700 7mm mag. Love it!
Perfect choice for that - thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation!
@@VortexOpticsUSA I’m glad to be a part of it. Next will be the crossfire for my new crossbow.
This is the best video I have ever watched on the explanation of the difference between the two types of scopes, I enjoyed it immensely! Thanks 🙏
Exactly! I didn’t even know where to start. Your clear and concise explanation helped tremendously. Thank you.
Thanks, very thorough and well structured. ...I’ve been through the ringer looking for the right scope for my personal needs and this tutorial really dove deep, but in straight forward way that was easy to follow. Thanks, and as a lifelong bow hunter that is exploring rifles for the first time, this type of info really helps.
Thanks for the explanation,
I just bought a Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44 Dead-Hold BDC MOA Riflescope. I wasn’t sure about the SFP this video helped a lot.
Wasn’t sure if I made a mistake not getting one with the resettable zero Turrets but I think this will be good once I get it zeroed.
You left out two important points in your painfully short video that most Airgun channels cover when talking about the difference between SFP and FFP rifle optics, and that's the reason FFP optics were developed in the first place: *Eliminating changes in Point of Impact and angular measurement while retaining versatility at varying magnifications.*
First-Focal Plane rifle optics are not intended for professional competition or reflexive shooting, _Fixed magnification_ parallax adjustable optics are. First-Focal Plane rifle optics are intended for use where the user will be changing magnification frequently where absolute accuracy and reliability is more important than time spent or scoring. Situations like range-finding, reconnaissance, or variations in range all will require shifts in magnification that with a SFP optic will cause your POI to shift away from your POA as you dial your power up and down to obtain more accurate measurements or better field of view. FFP optics solve this issue by placing the reticle on a plane where the zero point of a given shooting system remains the same across all levels of magnification, allowing the user to shift magnification to range estimate, apply holds for wind and elevation, aim at smaller targets, or obtain a wider field of view/greater light capture without changing POI relative to POA.
*Under the vast majority of circumstances a Second-Focal Plane Variable-Power optic, or a Fixed-Power optic, is sufficient for any task, so long as parallax can be accounted for and the proper time and effort is spent learning and understanding one's optic and its relationship to the ballistics of their setup.*
First-Focal Plane optics are for special applications where the user _can reasonably expect_ to be changing magnification a LOT.
In my case, I shoot airguns for pest control and recreation, so I am constantly changing magnifications, and use a 4-14x40 FFP MRAD BTR riflescope. My pellets have a maximum point-blank range of 50 yards on a 3 inch target, a maximum ETHICAL range of 75 yards for a 1 inch kill zone at 17fpe on small pest animals(starlings, raccoons, possums, squirrels, pigeons, designated feral cats, wild rabbits, ground hogs, gophers. This list IS exhaustive. I do not shoot any other living creature outside of circumstances where I am ordered to by law enforcement or animal control, and never outside of this range.), and a maximum EFFECTIVE range of 150 yards on *non-living targets* such as paper, bottles, cans, stumps, balls, spinners, flippers, etc. For pest control I leave my scope at 4x power and can guarantee an ethical, instantly lethal, shot on any small game animal that spans one mil in calm conditions. Anything smaller than a squirrel, any wind greater than 5mph, any time I need to range a target, or even just to identify an animal to see if it's actually a target I've been paid to shoot or something I should leave alone, I increase my magnification.
I use second focal plane for big game and first focal plane for precision target shooting. His explanations are spot on.
Great explanation with great visualization animation!
I have something to add about 2nd plane not being able to use a reticle to make holdovers. It's not quite an accurate statement, you can use it, just that it gets a bit more tricky. Keep in mind what I'm about to write comes from a man who has pretty much only used 1st plane and is not a native English speaker. If you see a mistake regarding technical language or principles of optics let me know.
In 2nd plane optics, you'll find on the magnification scale one of the numbers is marked with a square (or other marking) around it. That tells you the magnification at which the scale is exactly correct. In this example, we use the MIL system and optic with 3-24 magnification. In this example optic has the number 8 marked. Since we know that 10 clicks are 1 MIL (in most cases) and our example rifle at 500m needs 40 click correction we also know that at the 8x magnification, we can use 4.0 MIL holdover and we will hit the target.
Now about the tricky part using other magnifications. You can still use the scale on your reticle, but you'll need to ''translate'' it to correspond with your known click values. For example, now we are still shooting 500m and our gun still has a known click value of 40 clicks at this distance, but we are using 16x (twice as big) magnification. Now our reticle is still the same size, but proportionally to the target, it is twice as big (at 8x Magnification, for example, the target appeared at 5 MIL size, now it appears as 10 MIL size) meaning MIL value has decreased by half (when magnification is twice as big), which also means now if we want to shoot using holdover, instead of 4.0 MIL we need to aim at 8.0 MIL holdover and we will hit the target.
Same for 24x magnification- it's 3x larger than 8x meaning we need to use 3x bigger holdover than at 8x. In our current example 4.0 MILx 3=12 MIL holdover.
The same principle goes for using half the magnification 4x, now we would need half the MIL holdover to hit the target- 2 MIL.
It's somewhat simple to translate it when magnification is round numbers bigger or smaller than the default correct magnification.
It gets tricky using another magnification size for example 11x in our case. 11x is 1.375 times bigger than 8x magnification, which would mean in our example we would need to aim 5.5 MIL holdover (4.0x1.375= 5.5), but is that the kind of math you want to do?
Plus you can still use the scale to make corrections after a missed shot regardless of magnification. Let's say you missed the 500m target and it went 3 MIL to the right, but you are using a random 11x magnification, do you now need to translate it to the correct value? Yes and No. If you want to correct the next shot with clicks then you need to make that calculation, but why would you? You can use that 3 MIL miss as a reference and hold 3 MIL left using the same magnification.
Awesome explanation, and the presenter has an excellent conversational style.
Great verbiage, easy to understand. Thank you. Happy Easter.
Good, clear presentation with excellent, animated graphics.
I've used both types of scopes and I prefer the FFP .....Thanks for the information and keep on Shooting
Right on! Each definitely have their own place and application, but it really comes down to a lot of personal preference. Thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation! :)
Just picked up a Vortex Viper 6-24 ×50 ffp XLR (MOA), Vortex rings, Nightforce standard 0 moa base (steel bedded to action), HS Precision M24 kevlar/glass stock. Redoing my R700 SPS. Machined and threaded bolt handle 5/16 × 24 for oversized knob.
Haven't had it to the range yet.
Can't wait to see what the Vortex can do!
Thanks for the great video. Accurately explained the whole ffp/sfp concept.
Thank you, thak you, thank you. I had no clue what a "first focal plane" or a 'second focal place' scope was. Now I know. Excellent video and fantastic explanation of both!
Excellent explanation and visual aid.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great presentation. Great presenter. Very comfortable with the information. Definitely taught me something I never knew.
Excellent video! Good job as always Vortex
Thank you so much for your great explanation.
I had no idea about the differences between FFP & SFP.
Always learning.
Really good demonstration of FFP vs SFP.
Great video explaining the different of FFP and SFP...! Getting my first real good scope, only had one before, so this helped considerably in my choosing the right one!
Thank you for providing this! Well worth it and I appreciate you taking the time to explain to those of us who aren't as familiar with ffp vs sfp.
Picking up my 4th. Vortex scope this weekend. It will go on my 338 lapua. Love your scopes. Vortex strike eagle 5x25x56 ffp
Most excellent informative video ever to explain the difference. Thank you. Now I understand what was confusing about first vs second focal plane scopes.
By the way, I am super happy with my Vortex Crossfire II 3x9x40. It is superior! 😊
This is one of the best explanations I've seen. Nice job.
Thanks :)
Great, simple but detailed explanation! Thank you!
Happy to help!
Well done! I got a ffp strike eagle 5-25 and if I had watched this video first I may have got the sfp. hunting coyotes up close and personal is a bit difficult on 5-8 power with that tiny reticle. illumination does help as mentioned.
One of the best explanations of all time extremely well presented I enjoyed this immensely...
Best explanation of the different Scopes I've ever seen
This video will definitely remove that vacant stare that comes when trying to explain how to get the most value out of your bdc reticle. Thank you.
Great customer service, great product. Bought 4 vortex sights, I have nothing but great experiences. Lastly the vortex strike Eagle 1-8 has got to be the best bang for your buck.
We appreciate that - thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation! :)
Shot SFP scopes for 25 years and finally got good glas with FFP. It's plain as day. When you know your range cards you can park rounds so much closer so much more consistently. Yeah the reticle is hard to see at low power but you don't need much for hold-overs or windage corrections at ranges where you need low power to begin with. FFP is win win in my 30 years of shooting.
Thank you for your testimony on behalf of FFP. May I ask which rifle scope did you buy?
Fantastic explanation!! Thanks for the concise and thorough writing here. There's so much bad information out there on which is best. I don't plan to hunt but have been eyeing competitive shooting at extremely long distances. It Seems my choice is now obvious.
Best explanation ever for this subject! Great job!
AWESOME explanation, best I've seen! Great job!
Great sir
Today i see ur vedio abut1st &2nd f plane
I m hunting since 10 years but today i know that , some one loves and giving time to ours hobby
Great job to be continue
Keep it up ,
Right on - that's awesome! Thanks for tuning in, my friend.👊