Healing in Pokemon
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- This rather common mechanic has been implemented in many ways in Pokemon, to the point of possibly encouraging an endless game, so I discuss this mechanic and how Pokemon has dealt with it before going over another creature of mine.
Thank you to @FCPlaythroughs and @worldoflongplays for the gameplay footage
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#pokemon #fakemon #gamedev #stem
I love how every time we get to a Zodiac Beast you say which sign it's based off of and say "If you are X you will... Have a nice day today." without fail
Well, I guess eventually, everyone will get to have a good day.
I thought he added the Zodiac beasts during the birthday periods the videos were released. Aquarius doesn't make sense for this month though, so it's just a silly gag I was trying to draw a pattern for. Funny either way
To be truely accurate to horoscopes, he needs to select exactly one sign to say will have an inexplicably horrible day... But that it will get better by the end.
@@theapexsurvivor9538 Probably Scorpio
@@TheSeptetdamn. it tracks though 😔 (Scorpio)
The fact that alolan exeggutor stretches off screen, even when curved in your unique spritework, made me chuckle.
I like it too a lot because that's also how we see Alolan exeggutor most of the time in pokemon itself, given this is a Gen 9 problem since the Alola games accounted for the sheer height of this pokemon and adjusted the camera accordingly but in Scarlet/Violet the camera struggles a lot to keep the whole pokemon on screen even in the battle stadium where the camera is in a more fixed position
Can't forget the anaerobic ability, which passively allows for atp regeneration
And fun bro he is a menace
An idea for the ATP: you can only regenerate it if you haven't run out. That way, while you are still doomed you run out if ATP, it's possible to stoo yourself getting in the situation.
Anyway, high quality video as always!
I love things that you recover them if you didn't emptied it
What if it costs five, and gives 10 at the end of the turn, so it still nets 5.
@@gumballcomics That could work too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Stoo
This right here! It punishes you harder for over extending. Adds a choice of to go for a kill and run out of ATP or to rest for longevity while giving your opponent a turn. I think this would be a great way to do this mechanic
this video will premiere when my local pizza shop opens which is perfect
Grab a slice for all of us while you watch my man!
I hope it tastes good
Wow
Did you get Pizza?
How was the pizza like? :D
Great point on the heal stalling. One word of caution about the ATP system you mentioned though. I recently played this gatcha game called Takt Op (and it is end of service so no longer playable), where they had a stamina system that would essentially make you do less damage and take more damage once you ran out. But the system was so limited that you'd run out of stamina in about 5 turns. So the game very quickly became a DPS check that encouraged builds to one shot enemy teams. Pretty sure that hurt the game in the long run since it limited you to just one play style (be as aggressive as possible). In theory I like the idea of an ATP system, in practice I'd be a bit more weary. Best of luck though, sounds like a cool project!
Hey n0rtist, if you haven’t already, could you try making a stema based on HeLa cells? I think their ‘immortality’ allows for a unique design opportunity. Maybe it would be some sort of mythical-esque creature, like Mew or Jirachi, as I think the idea fits their category.
i suppose you could also form a sort of mythical/legendary backstory based on/mirroring how the original cells that the HeLa cells were derived from were taken by the physician without the consent or knowledge of their namesake, Henrietta Lacks, a black woman being treated for cervical cancer in 1951.
She died the same year and was buried in a grave that went unmarked until 2010, while her family was unaware of how her cells were being used for medical research until 1975, and to this day have never been compensated for the extraction and use of HeLa cells
@@hambor12 I’m reading Skloot’s book on Lacks, so that’s part of how I got the idea lol
The legendary stema will just be a bunch of beakers filled with glowy liquid that evolves into an actual chemisty set
Always be weary of free infinite actions. Maybe the rest option could have diminishing returns, it could recover a good amount at first, and reduced each time it's used.
I do actually like the idea of Hydrarius being the most common zodiac beast purely because its parts don't always die when cut off, so it just squirms its way around the stemmaverse after a fight, win or lose.
Counter switching
(Idea)
Pokemon have a dark type move "Pursuit" that deals more damage when a pokemon switches out, and it deals damage before a pokemon can switch out. It's great to counter psychic type with regenarator. Though with the latest mechanic of changing types, (a possible solution should be to create a similar move to Pursuit but with different types).
There's also binding moves that prevent switching unless they have switching moves or items that switches them in battle.
Trapping abilities like using arena trap, shadow tag, or magnet pull that were showcased to prevent switching out, but rules ban most of them, so yeah...
There are some abilities that negate an opponent's ability, like mold breaker, but it is in an attacking format, so it won't negate the regenerator ability. (Maybe create an ability that negates Abilities when they enter the battle or as long as they are in the field, abilities will not work.)
(Other options were to nerf regenerator or ban the ability or create a dark terrain field type that prevents any form of healing from occurring. )
2nd to last option is literally just neutralizing gas
Here's my suggestion:
Have the rest mechanic put some moderate penalty on top. For example, each time you rest, now your moves cost more ATP for the rest of the match. Allows stalling, but not infinitely.
Another possible solution to the idea of games going on for too long is a mechanic I call "instability". Once the turn counter has passed some arbitrary amount, instability begins to rise. More ATP will be consumed, and less will be restored. As turns go on and instability gets higher, these effects grow in severity, and new effects are introduced, such as everything taking more damage, and even losing HP over time. This would require careful balancing to make sure it all feels fair, but I think it's an idea worth looking into
This could be dangerous as stall teams would plan strategies keep ATP and health higher so when the instability starts the aggressive player would likely have less ATP and would lose health first. This would give stall a way to defeat opponents without having any attacking options by just stalling until instability starts and therefore it would basically give them a free toxic just for stalling. As was shown in the video, a dedicated staller will have options to defeat something like this (ex: slowbro with regenerator) while attackers would be the real victims.
I'm surprised that you didn't mention that there is an Endless Battle Clause implemented on Pokémon Showdown, forbidding the use of strategies which purposefully extend battles, like the famous Funbro set. :D
Funbro is a Slowbro with Heal Pulse, Slack Off, Block and Recycle holding a Leppa Berry. Block traps the opponent, Heal Pulse counteracts the opponent's Struggle damage and Slowbro keeps itself healthy with Slack Off and by recycling the Leppa Berry, restoring 10 PP of a move as soon as it's running out.
He did mention it.
@@flamenami Where? He only mentioned regular slowbro, not funbro from what I've seen, and the 1k+ turn matches could be ended by either player, while a succesful funbro strat can't end, as funbro disables the opponents ability to switch and makes both mons immortal
@@weirdidiot461613:46 There is screenshot of endless battle clause from showdown. It's not mentioned by name but at least it's there
@@olafmikoaj3121 Oh I thought flamenami meant funbro, not the endless clause
@@weirdidiot4616 Well Funbro is just an example. Anything trapping opponent, healing opponent and itself while restoring pp infinitely would work. That’s why endless battle clause is there
You could create a restless status for your ame to counter the rest button.
13:09 is the funniest thing ever. The emotion in the little dude, the change in tone, perfect
On the rest button being an unlimited action, look up Pokemon Wonder Battle.
I suggested in the last video to contemplate the other forms of biological energy storage compounds and energy acquisition methods (though not in those exact words.)
But having looked back at pokemon's past alternative battle systems I have found something both beautiful and distressing, the *[Wonder Battle]* from Gen5.
Stall villain reveal? 😳
I mean defensive Pokemon is good. You need help when making defensive Pokemon. It's not as easy as making a legendary Pokemon that hits hard and fast. I for one like toxapex.
@@peshomighty5051 Offensive svveeper toxapex
@@peshomighty5051 Toxapex paid for its crimes in gen 8 when I got to witness the incredibly glorious moment of Chi-Yu ohkoing it in sun. I know n0rtist is rightfully complaining about stall, but he should also complain about the other (more serious) side of powercreep that is obscene hyper-offensive. Stall struggled so much in early Gen 9, it only thrived again once they banned like 20 offensive mons that would obliterate anything in their path.
@@derpychicken2131 i think stall is easier to hate on than hyper-offense because of purely cosmetic and psychological reasons. at least with sweeps people can believe there's "action" being taken, while the opposite is perceived of defensive playstyles.
This is more of a general observation, since something similar occurs with fighting games where relatively "defensive" archetypes and playstyles (zoning, big body grapplers, turtling) are seen as less valid or more annoying than more offensive playstyles (rushdown)
When a "defensive" archetype is genuinely viable (NRS Zoners like Batman, Fujin, or Kabal, Beowulf in Skullgirls as a top tier grappler), there's a lot more vitriol than a rushdown being oppressively top tier (Zero's Lightning Loops)
As a programmer, game developer and game designer, I really think you are wasting alot of potential going to Pokemon's unbalanced systems for notes.
Yo-Kai Watch is a monster collector with a ton of healing and tank support.
They can even revive allies more consistently than Pokenon does woth Healing Wish or Revival Blessing.
They are automatically not that good in meta because of the 3v3 system making it easier for hyper offensive teams to outdamage any healing.
What is more is that official competitive in YKW3 has a timer that makes battles only last 5 minutes before going to Sudden Death. Stalling out means nothing if you do not build with that in mind and the opponent has more monsters or something that can snowball.
Stall is a respectable off-meta gimmick strategy in YKW3's system as opposed to Pokemon making it an obnoxious slog.
There's a Yo-Kai Watch meta?!
Also, though I agree that one shouldn't focus too much on Pokémon for taking notes about the design (though it's still good to pay attention to it, it's one of the lomgest-running and more complete monster catchers), I don't think Yo-Kai Watch is a good example, since its combat system is radically different to both Pokémon and what is intended with Stema. It isn't even turn based!
@@sinisternorimaki
It technically is. The Yo-Kai make their actions in a turn order. It is just done very differently from Pokemon.
If being longer running mattered, the older monster collectors like Dragon Quest and Shin Megami Tensei deserve way more attention and game design notes especially since their more recent entries in their respective series have improved on their turn based systems to make Pokemon look slow and outdated and even newer monster collectors like Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth have much better turn based design.
Why should it matter if it is turn based anyway as long as it is fun, engaging and rewards player freedom? PalWorld was certainly not turn based and the sales were not hurt by that.
Pokemon is never really praised for its gameplay or game design. It is praised fir marketability of its character designs. Take that away and there is really nothing noteworthy about its gameplay, game design or systems.
It has massive overlap between monsters that trivialize using some of them, gameplay is not that engaging and you have to actively play worse and suboptimal via Nuzlockes (a feature other games are actually progrsmming into their systems), competitive teambuilds as proven by the data get incredibly samey to boot.
Pretty much none of thpse issues among many others do not really exist in Yo-Kai Watch.
Even without Dragon Quest, Shin Megami Temsei or Yo-Kai Watch, games like Nexomon, Coromon, Disc Creatures, Monster Sanctuary and Cassette Beasts among others have shown there are numerous improvements that could be made to a turn based system.
I think fossil fighters found a really interesting way to do it in where at the beginning of every turn you got a certain number of energy points dependent upon your Fighter (character) level, and each of the maximum of three dinosaurs that you have on your team only gets to attack once per turn, you can redistribute that energy that you're given in any way between the variety of moves that those three dinosaurs will have so you can do something like a big AOE attack that takes a hundred energy, a singular Target attack that takes another 50 energy, and maybe a final attack that Force balances the energy that you have and the energy your enemy has so that way you can recover some of that lost energy and move into the next turn while not only handicapping the opponent but giving yourself extra energy for next turn for a stronger attack combination, but that's just one of the combos you can do with a specific setup of dinosaurs, the roster is like 170 something deep and each of them feel unique to a degree so I think the way they did their battle system lends itself well to the fairly self-contained roster and relatively small move pool per creature
I feel like you could probably talk about Pokédollars. They ALMOST create a fair system where you need to wager your items in order to limit how many healing and X items you buy, but also Pokéballs cost as much as a potion so if you don’t catch anything, the balance is completely destroyed. Plus, Meowth. Enough said.
This better be designing waifu bait. I want a video about gardevior.
Their nickname will be furrymon. Even if the stema isn't furry
What the pocket monster
He made a video about creating feminine creatures. Watch that if you want waifus
@@ikindajustexist520 that was a april fools joke, He talked about math
@@DragonTheOneDZABut gardevoir is not a furry creature.
Shell Bell & Enigma Berry, despite not seen often in competitive, are vital tools and widely used in alternate Pokemon games like Emerald Kaizo and PokeRogue
8:38 There was that gimmicky level one aron that uses it.
Here's the strategy
Step 1 have hippowdon or tyranitar set up sand storm
Step 2 Safely get aron on the field. Very important that Aron must be at full health.
Step 3 use endeavor. This move makes your opponents health equal to yours. Since you are moving second you will take damage and since your defenses are very low you will get knocked down to one health but don't die due to sturdy.
Step 4 win. Aron lives on one health with sturdy assuming that pokemon with moldbreaker, teravolt, or turbo blaze isn't on the enemy team and the pokemon doesn't know a move that specifically ignores abilities like photon geyser or sunsteel strike (as if shedinja doesn't have enough problems)
The shell bell will always heal aron back to full health since level 100 pokemon have way more health than a level 1 ever could. As for that last hit point of damage that's what the sandstorm is for.
Obviously this strategy has some issues such as ghost types being immune to endeavor, certain types are immune to sandstorm (steel, rock, and ground types), entry hazard removal may not always be possible, opponent can change the weather etc.
Gotta add here that leech seed only creates a stalemate if the opponents have the same HP.
If you use leech seed on a Pokémon with 200 health, you'd get 25 hp each turn. But if you have 400 health and that Pokémon uses leech seed on you, they will be healed 50 hp each turn. Meaning that if no one does anything, after 9-10 turns, you are dead while your opponent is at full HP.
7:52 even with 100% health gained from drain punch each hit has a chance to be a critical hit. Out of 16 turns odds are at least one drain punch is going to be a critical hit.
Critical hits are 50% stronger than normal hits and bypass most stat increases(eviolite and assault vest being the exception) however negative stat modifiers still apply
This scenario requires both players to be completely out of other iron bundle answers (because otherwise why rely on getting a lucky critical when you have more reliable answers) and decided that banking on a critical hit is the only way to win.
9:53 lmao Rotund excadrill
You could make a Telomeres base game mechanic where you can only regen so much HP, either by losing a portion of your max heal or having access to only 1.5 or 2 time you max hp to regen so you can only go back to 100% a limited amount of time
leppa
block
heal pulse
recycle
slack off
3:54 "This move is balanced with a very small distribution and a small -pp- *POWER POINT* "
Thorns is another sleeper mechanic. Reflect or do dmg back to the attacker, usually just to close range/melee. Combine it with healing or combat regen and u've got a recipe for disaster. In a group/team game u can potentially just deal with the ither targets and team up on the thorns (tank) at the end. But really nasty for 1v1* scenarios.
One trick ponies can be cool with it, but again risk becomjng OP. Many a MOBA player has flashbacks to Singed(LoL) or Bristleback and Axe (DotA) walking into a crowd yelling "why u hitting urself?"
So basically the modern pokemon metagame is the result of 25 years of pokemon adding new mechanics to balance old mechanics, which themselves need to be balanced by adding even more mechanics, and so on and so forth. Its the video game equivilent of introducing an invasive species to an enviroment to prey on another invasive species, but then it also needs ANOTHER invasive species to be introduced to keep the invasive predator in check.
Yeah, this methodology is why is why competitive pokemon is wack.
I like the rest to recharge mechanic, but you could also have a basic attack that does not require atp, all stema have it and it is incredibly weak, heck it would be nice to be able to defeat a stema with a final no aro move to conserve atp until you are in a place to recover it
There could be a rotom clone that is based on the simple machines
Yes, i am an Aquarius! Yes, thank you for wishing a happy day for me!
Same here ♒ to all Aquarians
Hell yeah brudda
3:55 lol, nice save
Came down to the comments to see if anyone else caught it lmao
😁 Balanced by having a very small distribution, and a small P 😐😑 *Power point*
The method to fix regenerator is to make the ability to shut off the opponent’s ability more competitively viable
Of course this has to be balanced because otherwise whole teams based around certain abilities (mainly weather and terrain focused teams) would become less competitive
(but some might say that it’s a sacrifice they are willing to make if it means denying Incineroar’s intimidate)
The method to fix Regenerator is to make switching demand far more commitment.
In Yo-Kai Watch 3, every monster has a Wait Time that prevents them from just switching in and out easily. They have to go through a cooldown so every switch forces the player to think or put them in a bad position.
Something like Toxapex would be monumentally weaker under such a system cuz it would likely be giving one of the biggest Wait Times and be forced to wait 7 "turns" just to switch in again as opposed to being so easily able to switch in and switch out as it does in Pokemon's system.
@@DrCoeloCephalo
A Pokemon needing to use a move before it can be switched out could be helpful, better than just having a Pokemon sent in and then returned without doing anything (the exception being the first turn of a match so that a trainer isn’t forced into a bad start-up just because they couldn’t predict what Pokemon the opponent would send out)
Man, I've been following you and stema since the first vid you made about it, it got randomly recommended to me by TH-cam and I've hooked and invented on stema ever since, we were only like 1000 people subscribed and your mic was bad lol, and it's crazy how good you have gotten at editing in such a short time, i often rewatch your vids/have them as background while i do other things and i noticed the jump in quality, I'm so happy for you n0Rtist!
Also, I'm really happy that stema is getting made into a game and that we got to the point of having demo footage! I know it's gonna be a while until it's finished, but I'm still glad i got to see you go from "this is stema, my creature collector i want to make into a game someday" to "this is stema, my creature collector I'm making into a game", can't wait to hear you say "this is stema, my creature collector game"
One way of solving the problems of long drawn out battles, is to have a background mechanic that tracks stuff like regenerations and number of turns.
And if certain thresholds are surpassed, certain gameplay are added, that shorten the game:
Things like exhaustion or environmental conditions could start happening to prevent the battle from continuing to be drawn out.
"But this move is balanced by having a very small distribution aaand a small P... POWER POINT" ~ This had me ROLLING on the floor XD
Seeing Chansey in the thumbnail honestly made me think this was gonna be about the Metal Slime archetype and I was like "Wait, how can that break Pokémon?"
9:00 Corviknight with Mirror Armour can't deal with it because their attack will never go down, meaning Strength Sap can be used for a set HP boost
here is how I would do it:
you could do like egg groups for atp regeneration, some will not regen others might regen 4 (but never 5) and balance mons around that.
like a strong legendary might regen 0 or 1 but a fast glass canon will regen 4.
resting instead could regen atp according to the natural atp - so 4 atp group will regen 6 (1.5 times) and 0 atp regen group will regen 1 or 2 (you can put a minimum amount of regen)
the accumulation of those mechanics will make mons with low atp regen stronger for short bursts but vulnerable at long game and fast regen will be better at long setups (which you could counter with the low atp group)
maybe make it so that when recovering ATP, you lose any amount of max ATP you see reasonable
after all, if you're in the middle of a fist fight, you can catch quick breaks here and there all you want, but they will never restore you nearly as much as the 5 minute nap you took before the fight
Minor mistake correction;
Heal Order was removed in Generation 8, and thus was not subject to the recovery nerf. Its PP should still be 32.
I think limiting switches like this is a bit too much and makes outplays less possible. Especially since the only problem is regenerator.
3:58 And it has a small *_POWER POINT_*
Best part of the video
Interesting how you didn't even mention the biggest sin, which is Leppa Berry, an item so broken that there are entire teams built around using it to create battles that can never end.
3:58 love how he was about to say small pp but immediately changed it to power point😂
Man what a crazy first video to see from you, but the one that shows off my own star sign: Aquarius
Thank you for the great sign-off/outro. You have given my day some much needed positivity
The way that the Pokemon TCG handled this is interesting in relation to the main games - stronger cards have a "retreat cost" that must be paid in specific Energy cards, themselves a random and limited resource. Energy cards must also be discarded for certain powerful card attacks as well.
So I wonder - what if it cost PP to switch? That seems to be what you've ended up with, so I'm definitely looking forward to trying it out someday.
It's been a while since I played the TCG, I had forgotten about that. It might be interesting to implement that somehow in the main games. The way I see it, it would have to either drain PP from the move with the highest or lowest amount (highest would be more convenient for casual play, lowest would make it a riskier option since those tend to be more impactful moves), or it could be random and you have to decide whether to roll the dice. Maybe it only applies to competitive battling modes as an anti-stall measure and it has no effect on most of single-player (it would still affect the Battle Tower or similar areas). Maybe a Pokemon is forced to Struggle or something like it if it tries to switch without any moves that have PP, meaning they'd eventually start to lose health and the battle wouldn't be able to go on forever. It might give more of an incentive to moves like Roar or Circle Throw if they also reduced the PP of the opposing Pokemon, though it's a worthy question whether it should apply to normal switches, forced ones, or both. There's certainly a couple of ways to go about it.
Do you have a Sprite sheet of all the Pokemon you use in these videos? I love the simple art style
My initial thought was to introduce more moves like Pursuit as a potential counter to excessive switching. I do think the strategic advantage of switching between Pokemon has value and should be preserved, though cases where a player is encouraged to continuously switch rather than engage the opponent should probably have some counterplay. Imagine my surprise to find out that Pursuit has been removed from the recent two generations of Pokemon games. I haven't played competitively in a long time so I don't know if there are other moves that've been introduced to help (those types of moves tend not to help as much in single-player content so I often forget about them), but the fact that the move is no longer usable makes me hope that there's some way to address these situations. I will say that in my brief time playing online battle simulators like Showdown, there were definitely people who, whether or not it was beneficial to them, would intentionally try to stall out a battle for whatever reason (make things uncomfortable for the opponent, frustrate them, etc). It seems that every now and then, two of those types of people match up against each other and it becomes a match of who has the longer patience, hence the 1000+ turn battles where nothing happens.
Here's a story that involved recovery moves and light stalling. I was in a random match where I was down to just my Milotic who knew Recover, Scald, Ice Beam, and a fourth move that isn't important. My opponent had two Pokemon, I don't remember which they were but their active Pokemon took neutral damage from my Ice Beam while their reserve Pokemon was weak to it. I think both of their Pokemon resisted my Scald, but if it came down to the wire, my Milotic could out-stall their active Pokemon and could defeat their reserve Pokemon with Ice Beam, but not with Scald and I would likely be defeated if it came in with a clean switch. For this part of the story, it's mildly important to mention that I was playing on Pokemon Online, not Showdown. Showdown shows your opponent's moves after they've been seen once in the battle, as well as how many PP they have left. Pokemon Online doesn't, much like the games themselves. So while I was using Ice Beam against their active Pokemon, I decided to switch to Scald. They must've assumed that I ran out of PP for Ice Beam, and switched into their reserve Pokemon. They successfully tanked a Scald, but I hit them with an Ice Beam for the KO on the next turn, bringing us back to a situation I would eventually win because I could out-stall with Recover. I believe they said "lol good one" and forfeit shortly afterwards.
Don't take this story as me bragging about my skills, I lost most of my battles :V
8:42 ITS MY BOY FERROTHORN!
Don't tell me we get the ♒ Aquarius zodiac Beast this early!!! Any more Aquarians watching this video?
Here’s an idea for how I’d buff Slaking: Whenever it misses a turn due to Truant, it recovers an eighth of its max HP. This gives it a lot of staying power, and makes Truant more balanced than an overtuned drawback ability that’s literally the only thing keeping an absolute monster of a Pokémon from being viable.
Would having switch-ins be determined by speed (excluding switch-ins from k.o.) be a potential solution? Would that that be too big of a nerf for slower Pokémon even more or would speed lowering moves and trick room balance that?
I feel like diminishing returns and hard limits are the best way to curb these potential infinite strategies. If I was a competitive-minded member of the Pokemon staff, I would make it so Regenerator only works once or restores less and less HP with each use, and make HP/PP-restoring Berries regained using Recycle/Harvest lose half of their efficiency each time they're remade.
As for my pitch how to do it with Stema, I suggest make it so resting restores 1 less ATP each time.
to me, the way I'd handle items in multiplayer is that I would let players take copies of 3 items they own into multiplayer battles, but only 3 items. Stronger NPC encounters would also follow this rule, as items add a new layer of strategy to the game. The reason they'd be copies of the items is that the items would not be used up in the singleplayer campaign when used in multiplayer, but the player would still need to own at least one copy of the item to be able to take it into multiplayer, this would be to balance it so low level multiplayer battles use low level items ideally.
Also, I do think there should be a way to recover ATP, as it can be balanced in different ways.
My idea for how to handle recovering "MP" for my own mon game idea is an attack that deals minimal damage regardless of type, and recovers some MP. It counters stall tactics because it would be possible to use equipment or an "ability" to buff this weak attack to inflict status effects or lay out hazards. This is also how I can have immunities to main type moves, because there's always this weak attack that can always deal some damage, that all mons have access to. It would still be weaker than other attacking moves that cost "mp"
I'm not fully sure how they did it but Gen 9 Pokémon extremely discourages stall, probably because of the extremely high power level compared to defenses.
I am curious to see if stall could work in gen 9 though
An idea for ATP could be to go for an analogy of aerobic vs. anaerobic respiration - hard for me to imagine the exact mechanic without a full understanding of the rest of battle mechanics, but perhaps hp can be "oxygen" in this case - introduce an action in battle that if you're low on hp, produces a little bit of atp at the cost of 1 turn; but if you're high on hp, it produces a bunch and takes 2 turns
I would probably do something like limit recoverable HP, as example. Now, this could take a few forms, one of which is that only X percent of damage taken can be recovered in the middle of battle, and either that is a universally fixed amount, or moves and/or creatures can have a stat that determines how much HP is long-term knocked out. Another is that only the last X number of hits taken can be recovered from in a fight, allowing for multi-hit attacks to quickly come up against that limit.
That said, moves that are more effective when your partner/team is badly hurt might add a layer of strategy: Do you exploit that effect, risking KO from the upcoming opposing attack if it doesn't stop it, or try to keep your health up? (The 'right' answer might vary with the team.) An example for such a move is Minus Strike, which deals damage based on the difference between maximum and current HP. (It also tends to be used by those who also have an HP-consuming or recoil-damage attack, to prepare it.) Depending on how high HP goes, however, you might want to cap it to some amount. (E.G. for Megaman Battle Network's recurring Muramasa chip, which is a sword that performs, effectively, a Minus Strike, later installments limit the maximum damage it can do to 500 where the final boss would have somewhere around 2000 to 3000, as it becomes easier to increase Max HP compared to earlier installments, as the first game that has a 'customizer' mechanic that allows for increased stats, including Max HP, was also the last one with the higher damage cap of 999.)
as someone who's played comp mons for over a decade + loves playing stall... i definitely think regenerator is a step too far. everything else is fine... although magic guard and poison heal are a bit nuts as well tbh
Nortist Hovv about you make a mon. That is based on products rotting or being secured
Imagine this :
A mon that evolves after lvel 16-29.
Its based on some fruit. Like an apple.
And its evolution . is it getting Old Moldy and rotten.
But! You can prevent that by having a second mon in your party. An ice type for example
If the mon gets past level (16-29) VVITH that same ice type mon in your party.
Then the mon gets a split evolution that is The fruit becoming a tree or something
My PP concept is to have a fixed amount of PP recovered each turn. Let’s say 6 PP comes back, you use 4 PP for a 40 power move like Vine Whip while you need 8 for an 80 power move like Energy Ball. Essentially this makes PP gaining or draining moves and gives weak attacks a purpose in competitive play. In this way if you are conservative you can unleash multiple strong attacks, but there is no limit to move usage and you can’t just Fire Blast every single turn.
Looking at ATP, maybe losing ATP would force a switch out or cause a forfeit condition? In real life you don’t need to obliterate your opponent to win, if they can no longer attack the fight is over.
As a casual player & neuro major, I believe that you should keep the unlimited rest button to restore ATP first because, as you said, the mitochondria are always generating ATP, & also because I could see a lack of ATP being a problem in boss battles. I also think that the risk of recovering ATP is big enough to avoid stalling to a good extent because the opponent could still attack & you wouldn’t recover any HP to help mitigate the attack. However, if the cost of switching is 5 ATP, then I believe rest should only recover 2-3 ATP per round because then an individual couldn’t alternate between resting & switching out.
Of course, I know very little about game design so others should feel free to provide input.
19:04 AcTionPoints? Hmmmmmmm, more like AdenosineTriPhosphate! I am excited to hear that ATP is going to be implemented, though I am curious about things similar to ATP, like ADP or NADPH, and also wondering why you would choose ATP specifically as it is commonly regenerated by use of eating food, and can be done infinitely by use of photosynthesis. I assume then that ATP won't be recoverable in battle, though as to why there may not be a scientific reasoning
19:48 If you're going to implement recoverable ATP, maybe have different ways to recover it, such as with aerobic respiration, which could be halted by getting rid of oxygen. However, no matter what happens, restorable PP(in this case, ATP) is going to be an extremely important part of combat, so I would recommend implementing counter strategies, as were found in the video.
20:22 scientifically, it would be much more accurate to call these abilities ribosomes or cell division, as that is what is used to heal in nature, whereas photosynthesis eventually leads to ATP being created.
That stall vs stall matchup reminded me of Rhystic Studies video on Lantern Control and the concept of the Zugzwang Machine.
My literal 1 wish for a balance change in gen 9 was for Regenerator to be nerfed in some way. They ended up nerfing stall in a lot of ways, but they left Regenerator untouched 😢.
My proposal: Regenerator now only works once per game, but it heals the pokemon to full the first time they switch out while under 50% health. I think that way it would still be good, but it wouldn’t have so much potential to make games infinite.
Also while I’m complaining about stall, Poison Heal should only heal the same as leftovers. Poisoning yourself would still be better than just running leftovers, because you are immune to other status, you don’t lose the healing if the Toxic Orb is knocked off/tricked away, and it let’s you run Facade, if you are into that sort of thing. As is, it’s annoying how Gliscor can endlessly loop Substitute and protect without losing any HP
You know, I didn’t think items in battle were THAT bad aside from like healing and X items, but then I realized I was playing a FireRed hack where my best attack option was Yellow Flute + Petal Dance and I realized why they’re such an issue. Especially because most of the battles in the hack I’m playing are double battles, so my Petal Dance user can just nonstop sweep the entirety of the opponent’s team without any downtime.
GUYS DROP EVERYTHING!! n0Rtist UPLOADED!! 🎉
Shell bell is used *a lot* in competitive
Got it, building heal teams.
The Shell Bell is incredible for Raids in Sword and Shield and Scarlet and Violet, similar to the Stellar Type added in the DLC, very useful when your raid target has many times the usual HP, especially if you buff your attacking stats.
Moving a knight back and forth will repeat the position three times (threefold repetition) and a player can claim a draw, so not technically infinite.
i feel like the atp restoration thing could have a cooldown for like 1-2 turns before you could use it again and that might balance it(?)
Since you're planning to put the Zodiac Beasts in another chapter, may I suggest a Zodiac Beast. One that's based on Ophiuchus, the secret 13th Zodiac that's based off of snakes. This Beast would be the de facto "leader" of the beasts.
Shouldn't any stacking (or growing in some other way) buff/debuff/DOT counter stalling? There is no point in stalling if at some point opponent will oneshot you.
Keep in mind that, though balance is still important in a single player game, is nowhere as important as in a multiplayer competitive game. You shouldn't worry too much about avoiding the existance of any kind of twisted, complicated way of overextending the length of battles unless there's the risk that some opponents in the game may unintendly trigger them (think a Wobbufet situation).
One thing you could do to recover atp is every stema that isn’t active recovers a set amount of atp a turn, but switching costs atp and the cost permanently increases for that stema, the drawbacks would be discouraging back-to-back switching, and eventually switching at all, witch wouldn’t allow you to play around type advantages and attacks, but it allows you to recover atp in a reliable way, while also keeping it restricted, if an average move costs 5 atp, you would want the recovery to be 5 atp, so you can use 1 move per turn recovering, of course some moves will cost more/less depending on power. I’m assuming you want the matches to reliably end in 30-ish turns at the latest, and that you will have a party of 5 stemas to use (just a round number idk how many your using) this will allow you to recover a total of 300 atp at the most in a match, if you don’t switch, witch you want some amount of switching to prevent damage, and if you don’t switch you eventually die anyway, forcing out a stema and lowering the amount you could possibly recover, the trick would be that you would have to make any healing options cost more atp than the health healed, such as having a move heal you to full, but cost twice the amount healed in atp (this type of move would interact with the atp system you described by losing 2 health for every health healed if you were short on atp, ex healing 10 hp, losing 16 atp, then losing 4 health for the atp overdraw), this way you could never outheal damage while still gaining net atp, obviously these numbers aren’t balanced, but the concept still applies.
This reminds me of (according to smthn I heard and my shoddy memory) how, apparently, in one of the very first games you could technically win against one of the elite fours dragonites with a mf zubat bc the opposing dragonite would continually try to use its most affective move on the zubat but it was an effect move (like it lowered defense or smthn I forget what specifically) so, I guess because the AI never ran out of PP, and it would keep trying to use the most affective move, this meant that even if your zubat could only use leech life and only dealt 1 damage, so long as you had enough PP restoring items, you could whittle that dragonite down until it fainted at the hand of your Level Five Zubat. Which, gotta say, absolute baller move on anyone who actually dedicated the time and effort into figuring out if that really worked in game. (Again I could be entirely incorrect and remembering wrong, feel free to correct me, I do like learning new stuff abt this franchise all the time)
I’m not sure if you know what Loomian Legacies is but they have move usage pretty similarly to how you described it, it’s free and on roblox made by the people of Pokémon Brick Bronze
(excuse the bad inglish, that is not my native lenguage) stall was only valid 4 times, only broken 2 times, do to trapers (sumething that you shoud discus), and maga sableaye bloking hazard,
but prankster assist lipard was reeely broken in gen9natdexag, becouse it heald faint ny using assist to cal revival blesing, so gen9natdexag stopd existig, in a way, the estrategy was so powerful that the tier was band
I know they are pretty much never used, but considering how in depth this video went, I can't help but notice how Aqua Ring and Ingrain weren't mentioned.
I think you should take full advantage of atp being a mechanic. Perhaps a move that heals equal to your remaining atp could be cool. It would get weaker over time! Could do the same thing with a damaging move, or even make a damaging move that does MORE damage when atp is low.
Stall cores nowadays usually run boots tho
Also I love the continued usage of the tubby vs ABR match to show healing, especially considering the staller (who wanted the game to be called a draw because 1000 turns was too much, even for him) lost
Breloom has a ton of ways to recover health. In doubles, it's partner can poison it. It has the poison heal ability. It also gets leech seed, it can hold leftovers. It learns draining moves (drain punch is the best as it's a physical attacker). It learns rest, though that would unpoison it. If it didn't have tons of weaknesses and it was bulkier, it would be annoying.
22:44 you gave it beast boost. I know that you won’t be using Pokémon abilities, but if you have it a ability like beast boost with a Pokémon with that much HP, it would be the per effect staller.
maybe the number of rests can be limited, and you can use items based on the Stema’s type (ie kindling for fire or a banana/brain food for psychic) to increase the amount of rests/waits?
because you can’t produce atp from nothing, you need some kind of fuel to produce energy
Idea: make using moves generate "gray" ATP. If you switch or use X move or however you want to allow for it to regenerate, it can only regenerate up to that point in the grey ATP bar.
I don't know if this is actually a good idea, but what if each rest gives less ATP, so starting at 5, then 4 etc, so the 5th turn onwards only gives a single ATP.
For the ATB restoring ability, maybe have it cost HP if they have no ATB left, or make it so that the creature gets reduced defences after restoring their ATB
Machamp can’t learn drain punch! What? It got it in Legends Arceus? That’s crazy.
Regenerator was originally on offensive mons such as mienfoo, (although they gave it as a hidden ability to defensive mons the same generation) and I think that it's a lot more manageable when it's like that, and that that's how it was meant to be.
Also, heal block needs to be a side of the field thing, so that it not only stops regenerator, but also makes it so that it isn't easily gotten rid of by switching.
if your gonna have them regen ATP maybe have it be so miniscule that it won't help the stema a lot like just regen 1 atp if they stay on the battlefield for longer than 2-3 turns (unless it has an ability but I'm pretty sure that's not what you want)
I see two stall players playing 300+ turn games as karma. I hate playing against stall. Keep the stall players busy with each other in limbo.
Nortis is back with a new video! I LOVE YOUR ARTSYYLE ❤️
i hate regenerateor it's the single reason why i don't play single play anymore. Just Doubles.
hey nORtist how do you make your artwork from STEMA the flat colored ones..