Fun fact about Toxic: when used by Poison-types, due to it never missing, it'll even hit semi-invulnerable Pokémon. (First turn of Dig, Fly, Dive, moves like those.)
@@Gatebreakerglitcher a quick check to the wikis and it's still not patched out. The only thing they patch out (in Sword and Shield) was the Toxic sure-hit glitch which is not related to toxic hitting semi-invuln pokemons
@@GatebreakerglitcherI mean, considering some of the weird quirks I've found when making my own modded showdown client/server, it's pretty much always close enough for testing stuff like that, they even included the weird confusion duration change on Axe Kick (it's guaranteed to last at least one turn longer than the normal minimum iirc)
Your mention of lactic acid actually sparked an idea: Anything to excess can be poison. Helpful medicines taken too far, working out too hard, or even drinking too much water- these are actions that can poison yourself. Then there's bodily functions that can be taken too far; immune systems working too hard can result in autoimmune issues like psoriasis, cells growing out of control can cause growths/tumors/cancer, and nerves being overly sensitive can result in horrible pain or even losing consciousness from the mere act of laughing too hard. Perhaps the poison type for STEMA could play on that?
going off of excess medicine being harmful, what if spamming healing items (or any item for that matter) stops working or even applies poison after a certain amount? It could dissuade stalling strategies, or be a way for chemosynthetic creatures to inflict themselves with poison without relying on the enemy poisoning them by mistake.
basically an easy way to nerf any strategy that spams too much, while also encouraging spamming with the chemosynthetic ability. Really, this sounds like a good idea aside from the chemosynthetic ability.
There's a lot of RPGs with toxicity and reactiveness integrated Either you go pokemon route for direct poison type, or you use it as a resource or currency for moves. You can have healing that works one one type and is toxic to another, diminishing returns, reative combos that have different effects. It can be really simple or really complex. Think less about "poison" and more about chemistry and physics. Heat will exercise a reaction to... and so on. And if think about poison, there isn't just"venom" noxious fumes, spores, dehydration, radiation... An environment rich in CO2 and heat might be toxic to aerobical living form, but is a paradise for plants, but if is a fire spreading, then it changes everything. Pokemon figured it out with abilities, poison is both a type, status and mechanic, but none of them are synonyms to each other, you can scrap the whole idea of poison DoT and name it Alfredo it you want, you can change the poison type to Ophiuchus if you want, you can make a DoTfor motivation and depression if you feel like it, mechanics are mechanics and names are just placeholders for flavortext, just do a mechanic that makes sense for the game that it will make sense in the game and for the players even if everything are just NATO alphabet, there's nothing new under the sun and doesn't matter if something makes sense or not, only if something works or not, everything else is just flavortext. Doesn't matter if it has terrain control from chrono cross, combos from omori or guilty gaia or is the characters look like they came from Golden Axe, you have damage, dot, currency/resource, buff/debuff, if-else checks for conditionals, in the end of the day, that won't change, these things only exists to mold the experience in the way intended. Want the holy trinity? If you make the healer OP, the job of everyone will be to keep the healer alive while the other side is doing everything they can to kill the healer. The healer is useless? Well, everyone will focus on mitigation either by reducing the enemies asap so they do less damage and everything is a dps check race, or they have absurd levels of terrain control so their enemies are as ineffective as possible and so on. Everything is mechanics and they only exists to control how the experience is supposed to be.
idea: fossil creatures that instead of fossils that need to be revived they are based on old scientific theories that has been later in history dissproven. sorry if bad english :( edit: omg msm yay i love that game :D
String Theory Phlogiston/Caloric Theory Nemesis Star (a hypothetical red dwarf star located beyond the Oort cloud that was supposedly part of a binary system with our sun) Planet Vulcan (a hypothetical planet meant to explain the peculiarities of Mercury's orbit prior to the theorization of relativity) Polywater (a supposed new state of water "discovered" by a Soviet scientist and causing massive controversy during the Cold War, only to be revealed to be just water with contaminants from sweating) Bodily Humors (phlegm, blood, bile, and melancholy) Phrenology Continental Drift and Newtonian Physics are also technically "obsolete", though they have been incorporated and improved upon by their successors (plate tectonics and relativistic physics/quantum physics) instead of being completely replaced
Definitely a Poison type supporter. Hazardous substances can be incorporated in so many ways that it is fertile ground for creature designs. It's also worth noting that real world poisons and venoms can have a multitude of different effects. Paralysis, necrosis, blood clotting, and more could all be represented in unique ways as additional effects paired with the standard DoT. Consider conditions that prevent healing or force a creature to move last in the turn order. There is a lot to explore with the concept in terms of mechanics.
Poison as a status condition I'm a big supporter of. Poison as a type, though? Not so much. What even is the logic behind Poison being weak to Psychic or Ground? What's the logic of Temtem's equivalent being weak to Wind? If pollution's hazardous nature is the logic behind it killing Grass, why not Bug and one of Flying or Water in addition? I understand a pile of goo being resistant to Fighting, but why are the Nidoran family of animals also resistant to Fighting when other animals with similar skins and skeletons are weak to it? Poison being weak to Bug was nonsense, aside from theming ("Bad guys use Poison, Bug is heroic, heroes beat bad guys!") but Bug losing its weakness to Poison was very bad for overall game balance and especially bad for Poison.
@@RoninCatholic Maybe they removed Bug's weakness because there's no reason only Bugs are explicitly weak to Poison? Humans are willing to poison all kinds of pests; bugs are just the most acceptable ones. (Edit: in theory it'd make more sense for Normal to be weak to Poison as well as Fighting if that were the thought process. I think in general they just realized having the Super Effective while Also Being Weak to the Same Type was a Sword of Damocles that might confuse some players and make the damage overwhelming, which is why future gens rarely did that with other types moving forward.) As for Psychic, I speculate it's either a "Mind over Matter" concept or else knowing that the Poison is there and being able to mitigate it though that's usually from not making contact with it more realistically. With regards to Ground, I'm also only speculating it could be because fresh earth could be used to bury and nullify it over time but I don't know if that actually works IRL either (since you can ruin dirt.) The combined mention of Bug, Ground, and Poison just got me thinking about Nausicaa all of a sudden lol.
I personally love how abstract it is. It includes poisonous and venomous creatures, pollution, illness, acid, etc. it makes for very unique blend of critters that have it as a type.
I don't really like the poison idea you suggested. You may want to discourage passive gameplay, but when everything is focused on offense the entire game becomes finding who deals the most damage and removes a pretty simple player expression method. Defense is needed to balance against offensive playstyles
Yep, it's also why status moves and moves with secondary effects are good. It makes the lines of play more fun and varied. Sure, you Could click scratch twice, but what if you clicked SD once and then clicked scratch? Or what if you clicked rapid spin to remove hazards and ensure you move first? What if you click spore and watch them disconnect?
That’s what Pokemon is already. There is some passive gameplay with switching and protect, but no one uses poison in competitive pokemon. All the most common support pokemon just use fake out, follow me, or helping hand, all intended to maximize the damage of the high stats damage dealer.
@@davidgomez5032 this is a crazy take. In doubles, sure, but that's in modern doubles. Glummora has historically been very good in the earlier formats with mortal spin, and other passive effects like burn are a defining part of reg G. There's also amazing tanks like incineroar and raging bolt that use defense and make teams bulkier. in singles, passive gameplay is enabled very effectively by dondozo and glowking
One form of poison in games that I really like is when a poison effect paints part of the health bar. Then that section withers away over time but no more than what is painted.
Early gen solutions: Toxic being given only to mons it made sense to, increasing viability for poison types. Poison being super effective against water
Poison should have continued being Super Effective against Bug as well. Bug defeating it in the first generation was entirely because Dark didn't exist yet, and "Poison" was the "evil" type so Bug being the "underdog hero" type was highly effective against it while Fighting struggled (opposite of Rock, where Normal struggles against it but the technical aspect of Fighting gives the martial arts man the know-how to smash the rocks at a relative 4x effectiveness).
5:21 on fast paced teams, one layer of t-spikes is prefered because toxic poison only outdamages normal poison from the 4th turn onward. Thus, sweepers appreciate normal poison much more, as it brings their checks into ko range quicker. BKC made a great video on this btw
Love how you included msm, but also i have to know how much you know about the game, because it definitely has an above average amount of elements, most of which being unique to one or a handful of monsters
most of the unique elements come from seasonals... but excluding that there's still a handful more. I really do like the design choices given to multi-element monsters though, such as the magical, natural and ethereals. And how quad elementals represent their island and single elemental monsters represent the more basic concept of their element. There's definitely a lot of layers to their designs, from how the instrument is incorporated, their descriptions, and how elements interact with eachother in that design. Even the islands themselves are unique types of creatures with their own design! there is for sure a lot to be discussed when it comes to collectable monster designs in msm
Poison is my favorite type/ element in general, Pokémon aside. Something about weakening and softening up opponents with seemingly small amounts of damage that inevitably snowball out of the opponent’s control is unbelievably satisfying to me. Also poison aesthetics are almost always cool looking, so I’m glad they’ll still be thing here.
I feel like a way of differentiating a 'Poison' typing is to do something different with its status effects rather than losing HP over time. I'm thinking there could be two status effects: 1. Corrosion - the afflicted target's defense drops at the end of every turn it's still afflicted with Corrosion 2. Toxification - the afflicted target is slowed and less accurate with its moves as long as it's Toxified. rather than being a 'damage over time' type, Poison becomes a vicious debuff type. the acidic and sludgey fighters get Corrosion, and the venomous and gaseous fighters get Toxification. alternatively Acid could be separate from Poison, and even contrasted against a Basic type. Acid and Basic would be mutually super-effective.
"Toxification" could work better as a status if you removed the accuracy penalty and instead added an effect which ONLY damaged the sufferer if they attacked. Accuracy reduction is a very unhealthy mechanic which takes control away from the player. The heafty DoT ONLY when attacking would produce the same outcome, but also place control in the hands of the player. They'd be put on a timer that they can control. Think about it this way for flavor: A toxin works faster when your blood is pumping, like by attacking.
those are interesting ideas! I was hoping n0Rtist would mention this in the video, because it's something I am struggling to deal with when deciding whether to have a toxic type in my own elemental system: the differences between poison and acid damage. Because poison (and venom) act differently from acid (and base/alkaline), damaging living cells vs corrosion to the material itself. This would be relevant in things like damage to metal: poison wouldn't have much of an effect, but acid could dissolve it. Does that make sense?
I enjoy how you mix mini videos essays about Pokemon/the creature collection genre with your devlogs. It's honestly a breath of fresh air within the format... I'm going to steal it when I finally decide to start making a game (I'll credit you with the idea.)
Thought regarding attack and defense types: Make 3 types (physical, chemical, and molecular) and let each attack have up to 2 of those at a time; calculate the average of the 2 attack types for the damage part of the math, calculate the average of the 2 defense types for for the resistance part of the math, and hey presto! There you go. Physical = force trauma (slicing, piercing, blunt) Chemical = chemical changes Molecular = changes in the molecular structure (like changing states of matter) Might make things a little more complicated, but would probably solve some conundrums that were mentioned.( i.e. envenom being both physical and chemical, freezing being molecular, etc.) Just my 2 cents of an idea.
Best video covering a specific type yet! From the mechanics, to the analysis, to the change in concept for the type! It blew my mind when you boiled It down to a 'different set of chemicals'
Okay, I actually have so many ideas I want to share right now!!! 1. For a forceful chemical attack, how about explosive materials? Things you would put the "Explosive" hazard symbol on in a laboratory. School never taught me why they differentiate "explosive" and "flammable", but Wikipedia says it's for substances that contain a lot of potential energy, not just catching on fire(though it's a common cause). So it includes things like pressurised gas(physical attack?), as well as sodium(chemical) and even the radioactive isotopes used in nuclear reactors. 2.If you ever redesign the Zodiac-mons, is it possible to make Cantri look more crab-like? It only looks a little like a crab to me, but I have a bigger reason than that: to reference Carcinisation, aka "the many attempts of Nature to evolve a crab"(actual quote from a scientist). The idea being that of all the forms for a lump of cells to take, it's a crab. Side note: maybe make it really big so that it becomes a "Giant Enemy Crab". And this just occurred to me looking at the Hazard symbols, but a lot of what entertainment as a whole(movies, TV shows, games, etc.) views "poison" and adjacent things like acid are really just the idea of "harmful chemicals". Being corrosive, biohazardous, radioactive, or toxic are all lumped into this one category of thing. This also extends to the general aesthetic of pollution/urbanisation: the idea of being harmful for the environment. Also you know how billions of neon signs is a staple design element in the cyberpunk genre? For some reason, my brain is making me think of aposematism: the _advertising_ of an animal that it maybe be dangerous to deal with.
I'm really glad you are including the difference between poison and venom, I was hoping you would in your game. and the physical/chemical differentiation sounds super interesting, I hope you pursue it for all types! (or at least the ones that make sense)
Woah, a mention of My Singing Monsters and Sludge Life 2! I've been playing msm forever and bought Sludge Life 2 on release because I loved the first game.
i cant blieve how perfect timing this video is!!! ive been developing my own tamer so i love watching vids on your own process and others building out the concept, and as i keep trying to figure out how i wanna sort out types or the battle mechanics/system as a whole, i keep running into poison and how i wanna approach it. now personally, i don't see it making it as a type for my concept, despite my audience badly wanting one and even offering their own takes so it could fit my universe. i for sure see it more as a must have as far as status condition, and i like the way you're handling it, and think it does fit the world of STEMA! I do think its interesting how its become a staple type in a lot of tamers after pokemon, which has lead to creating a lot of expectations for many mechanics/elements in these kinds of games. also, cantri's design and execution is pretty dope, great work nort! ok bye and talk to u later nort ok.
Having a poison type isn't too surprising since it's meant to represent poisonous/venomous animals and having a type based around that likely would've been the easiest way to portray them in an era before abilities. Even after abilities have been introduced, I still like that poison is its own type since you can add abilities along with powering up poison attacks.
8:07 Malchemy mentioned, today is a good day (im also obliged to say that seeing MSM brought up alongside creature collector RPGs gave me a bit of whiplash, but admittedly Bugsnax gave me the same reaction) 9:26 you just made leftovers gliscor, what have you done
Haven't seen one of your videos since I started researching to make my own collector series, but was pondering on this same issue. I think poison as an effect and an ability works better for mine, though I have my own system I'm building instead of "standard" elements. (Yu-Gi-Oh Attributes × Tao and 8 Gates. Elements are figured out, just need to make the sketches into svgs, and figure out the interactions) Anyways! Awesome video! Excited to see yours as well!
Heya! I've been watching ur channel for awhile and really enjoy the in-depth discussions you have about these science topics (applying science to monster collecting makes it super fun) Funny note but I realized light was even a Ykw attribute when it was brought up lol
your creativity always makes me wonder whats next for Pokemon, what is the next gimmick forms gonna be about, just few years back regional forms seemed so crazy now we have dino volcarona & they/them Gallevoir robot i do think poison is a type that deserves a spot on the type chart, maybe because im so accustomed to the 18 types used pokemon but everything just makes sense for the most part i still think bug types deserve some kind of a buff, fairy resisting them was an overkill light/sound/air/alien are popular types that most fans want add, annoyingly so in fact, but pokemon has found other ways of including these elements without adding these types
The first physical force with a chrcmical effect I thought of was pressure. Like squeezing carbon into diamonds. I dunno 🤷 I almost always listen to these at work. Today is the first time I’ve actually seen the designs you’ve drawn, and they are awesome. I really like your art style. I can’t believe I haven’t seen them until now.
They already did a Cell Pokemon, now all they need to do is add a Poison-type regional variant of it... But that sounds way too gruesome of GameFreak to actually do, like you mentioned
@@creature6715 Well climate disaster is par for the course for poison types being living pollution since gen 1 but a specific disease is a bridge too far
9:30 - I think it would be cool if you did both! Radiation Stage 0 - Stems are immune to Radiation Damage Radiation Stage 1 - Stems take resistant damage to Radiation Damage and take 1/16th damage per turn. Radiation Stage 2 - Stems take neutral damage to Radiation Damage and take 1/8th damage per turn. Radiation Stage 3 - Stems take super effective damage to Radiation Damage and take 1/4th damage per turn. Applying Radiation Stages will reset the Radiation timer, and each 2 turn the Radiation timer decreases, it also drops the stage of Radiation down by 1.
For the Physical/Chemical split, you could deliberately lean in to the awkwardness of applying them both to all types equally as a design choicd. Early gens of Pokemon had each type be purely physical or special, and this has important impacts on the game. Gen 3 competitive is good to look at for this: Skarmory has high defense but no physical weaknesses at all due to typing, so is excellent as a wall. Blaziken is theoretically a good mixed attacker as its STABs belong to both offensive stats. Dark is special (why) so Tyranitar has to commit to a weaker offensive stat to get good mileage out of it. Gengar rarely uses STAB attacks and instead uses varied special coverage options, the Ghost and Poison types still relevant defensively. Gloomhaven is a board game where Poison status does no damage over time (reserved for Bleeding) but instead each attack to a Poisoned target deals an additional point of damage. So a similar concept to yours where poison simply weakens the target to further hits.
Q: Does Poison Work as a Type? A: Yes it most certainly does I can (and if I remember: will) elaborate as to why when I am back to write an essay.. tl;dr though: For my TTRPG kind of game I play with my friends "Corruption" is one of the types you have to fight which has a lot of similarities to Poisonous / venomous / pollution based things and one of the three main staples of the game. Note: If my Alzheimers LITE does not kick me to the curve, I will be back to elaborate.. lol
I will reply to my own comment as I watched one of your other videos I actually remembered to add a long written explanation! There are basically 3 'types' so to speak which I created.. Know that despite it being very intricate and a 4 years long project so far.. the way it started was simple, hung with friends online, but everybody fell silent, anyone have this issue that when stuff just falls silent you feel silently pressured to speak up and start a conversation? Well eventually I just snapped and thought 'Screw it, time to fix this' and just began typing like a rabid monkey on the keyboard, coming up with ideas and start implementing see what sticks and what does not. Came up with the following; In the storyline, it's about Catfolk having to cure a corruption that has seeped into their realms. Felinity, the type that would stand for good deals more damage against Corruption however they are weak to balanced. Explanation: Good vs Evil, Felinity vs Corruption, potato-potato vs tomato-tomato. The Balanced part actually comes from that not everybody 'needs' help. No matter how good some intentions are, sometimes things are uncalled for. Balanced, the type that stands for neither side, being indifferent to it, maybe you don't like one thing or another but you do not do anything to stop it either. They are strong against Felinity, weak to Corruption. Then there is Corruption, the evil type so to speak which stereotypically poison falls under. It's strong against balanced, as Corruption preys on the weak and undecided but weak against Felinity. So if part of the Felinity / Balanced crew, you eventually get to choose a path of life to follow with Abilities to unlock and make your character stronger in their field. Path of the Striker, which increases Health. Path of the Stalker, which increases Regeneration. And path of the Sprinter, which increases Stamina. Then there's the Path of Corruption, which lowers all stats slightly except for your Damage output which significantly increases making you basically a Glass cannon. So far, I've managed to create 3 worlds for my friends and I, all with their own individual unique paths and while the primary trio is easy to make and build upon depending on the scenery of the world. The reason why is to not make it feel stale, and giving unique twists and turns for challenges to every world that you have to tackle. You'd think Corruption would be difficult, but far from it, in my opinion it is the easiest to write and is extraordinarily versatile. Whether it's Poison in from of a dark Corruption, to pollution, to dense liquids like sludge, or path created to deal with gasses or mind control in any form of way, there are so many things that you are able to think of when it comes to poison. It does not even all have to be bad either as many vaccines are made with dead cells or extremely small dosages of poisons to help you become more resistant to it. Not only do I believe that Poison works as a type, I believe it is one of the most easy to write out of all of them and is best off in any form as a main staple in any game that deals with 'typing charts' Note, I'm no professional game creator, just an introvert with a fiery passion to avoid awkward moments full of pressure. Just slamming stuff to the wall - see what sticks and see what doesn't but if I learned one thing is that any form of "Poison" in this case Corruption was a very smart choice to make. Then also there are lingering combat effects, poison is one of them as well this comes directly fresh from my notes how I decided to implement it. Basically, you have to see them in a manner like this as to how it is inflicted: Poisoned = Tier 1 infliction Badly poisoned = Tier 2 infliction Heavily poisoned = Tier 3 infliction To get Poisoned well, simply... 1 If you get Poisoned again, it turns to a Bad poisoning. 1+1 = 2 However here it becomes more complicated as to get to the 3rd effect you have to be inflicted by 2 Bad poisoning. Poisoned + Badly poisoned = just Badly poisoned. Badly poisoned + Badly poisoned = Heavily poisoned. 2 heavy makes 1 deadly and 2 deadly makes one terminally. -> Poison Name of the lingering effect: Poisoned Health drained per turn: -2 Additonal information: None
Name of the lingering effect: Badly poisoned Health drained per turn: -4 Additonal information: Inflicted by being poisoned twice.
Name of the lingering effect: Heavily poisoned Health drained per turn: -16 Additonal information: Inflicted by having 2 Badly poisoned effects applied.
Name of the lingering effect: Deadly poisoned Health drained per turn: -64 Additonal information: Inflicted by having 2 Heavily poisoned effects applied. This effect does NOT wear off after combat.
Name of the lingering effect: Terminally poisoned Health drained per turn: -256 Additonal information: Inflicted by having 2 Deadly poisoned effects applied. This effect does NOT wear off after combat. There are ways to cure the last two which are very difficult for obvious reasons, then again it is also very difficult to get there to begin with. So you probably messed up really bad to get there and if it goes that far you'd have to work together as a team to get it fixed before death takes you. This is just 1 on the few "Lingering combat effects" and I share this as it is also relevant, considering how versatile this can be. Another lingering combat effect that works similarly to poison = bleeding. As well as Burning and Frostbites. The Burning effect is weaker than poisoning but cuts attack, Frostbite same but increases your Stamina usage to do anything whilst bleed starts off very weak, but can applied consecutively and stacks without limitation but it potentially even deadlier than the other ones if played right with the right Paths. Once more you can see how effective Poison can be as a lingering combat effect enabling strategies that you previously couldn't have done. Having nerded out long enough I'm not expecting anyone to read this all, lol But I thankfully remembered to post the full length explanation why poison in whatever way you add it into your game is always a net benefit in one way or another. It adds more than it takes away and is a great enhancer to any project! For anyone who read this far - I am so sorry for wasting your time, lol... My main comment had a tl;dr after all.. lol
Loved the video, and I have some thoughts on how your Zodiac beast could fit in to a group of niche topics, to an extent. As a biology student, I'd like to point out that Petri dishes can be very niche! While they are frequently used in Biology, it's a known problem that most (read: probably 90% or more) bacterial species won't grow on agar plates/in Petri dishes. Petri dishes most closely mimic a human body (gel/flesh-like nutrient rich substance, 37 or so degrees centigrade etc) so while they're great for finding out what diseases can infect us, they aren't so good for research into other kinds of bacteria. There are whole clades that go uncategorised simply because they dislike growing in lab conditions! Maybe your creature could play into the 'pickiness' of which bacteria live on agar plates, or human biases/limitations and how that affects research in biology.
It's super interesting and weird that Pokemon even has a Poison type, especially it being in Gen 1, so early in the game's life. But I honestly think it was pretty genius from Gamefreak. You can tell that even early on, they weren't just going for elements with the types but also aspects and personalities with their monsters. One of the most prevalent parts of the animal kingdom in the real world is poison/venom. It's a type that, without including, they'd be missing out on a ton of design space that they've utilised really well by now. I've always seen Poison as a type for pokemon designs that are misunderstood. They are considered dangerous, but theyre not evil/cruel/aggressive like Dark types. It's that kind of natural indifference. The "they won't hurt you if you don't interfere with them" that you have with real world spiders, snakes, and other venomous/poisonous creatures.
11:23 Can't you just not? I think it'd be pretty interesting to have a few types that are locked into one category or the other, even if it's just one type for each. I do want to know what Psychic, Ghost, and the other fantastical types will be like with regards to the physical chemical split, as they obviously don't have real world counterparts to copy off of.
I was so happy that I was able to get creative with my Zodiac legends in my fanmade Pokemon region, only to then see that my favorite TH-camr is using the same idea. :/ Now I will keep the designs that I have made the same, because you did say that you're not sure if you'll make the Zodiac Beasts a reality in your game, but still that was a weird coincidence.
Interesting that Pokemon changed Poison from being effectiv against Bug to normal damage against it. I always forget that this is the case and always wonder why today it isn't effectiv, as it would make sense in real life with pestizides. Great videos as always! Thank you for making these videos and showing us new ways in thinking about these topics and mechanics. Also I really like your artstyle and your creativity with your designs. ^^
You could make one or multiple designs based on types of symbiosis (mutualism, parasitism, commensalism etc.) one could be one design which changes forms, or multiple different ones
Idk why i had this idea to add a corrosion attack, similar to freeze-dry now it can deal super effective damage to type that should resist it maybe steel ot sum.
To counteract the issue of physical vs chemical not lining up aesthetically, you could either A: Add a third category; Wave/ Radiant- which would commonly target one of the other two defenses and have its own attacking stat. This would allow certain moves be more "energy based" or fantastical while still dealing physical damage, and this would also fix the issue with sound moves using physical attack. B: Make each attack specify both the attacking stat it uses and the defense stat it targets, making it more common to have moves target the opposite defense stat from the attack stat it uses. This would allow the creation of moves that deal with physical changes caused by chemicals and vise versa, like using liquid nitrogen to solidify something, or friction being used to start a fire. C: Both I understand that that would make things significantly more complicated, but honestly I think I'd like the extra layer of complexity.
Idea: what if you had more evolution stages I understand this might be hard or annoying to code or come up with the design but my idea is you design 2, 3, or more mons then you add more transition stages in between
i think my favorite damage-over-time effect in video games is the Shroom effect in Wildfrost. it's a stackable effect, and different sources of it can vary in the amount they apply at once, but the really fun part to me is that the amount of Shroom applied to any given target is both a countdown of how many turns the effect will be active for and an indicator of how much damage the effect will deal in the current turn. it's a system that would definitely need a few tweaks in order to translate well in a pokemon-like combat style, but it does handily avoid encouraging passive gameplay.
Alternative to a physical/chemical split. What about macro and micro? Attacks that affect the opponent on a macroscopic level would cover things like standard punches, slashes, etc. While microscopic attacks are things that affect the opponent on a molecular level. I think that would allow for more freedom to design attacks of both kinds for every type. Fire can char things, which is a molecular process. Sound could agitate individual atoms. Psychic damage could be mostly microscopic, but if it has a large enough effect on the opponent’s behavior, you could reasonable call it macroscopic. You get the idea
I have an idea What if moves can be both either physical/ chemical Or Melee/ranged So ‘freeze ray’ could be [phys/ranged] While ‘sludge punch’ could be [chem/melee]
Regarding the physical/chemical move issue, the first generation of pokemon had physical and special split among types, where all moves of that type were either physical or special regardless of contact (ex. all fighting moves were physical, all water moves were special). You probably don't want to go to that extreme of a level, but making it so some types are weighted much more heavily towards one or the other could illustrate how not all stem topics can be directly compared and could make players think harder about how they build their team's movesets to balance both typing and the physical/chemical coverage.
11:32 some types in Pokémon are biased in categories Fairy only has ONE physical move (play rough) And fighting is almost entirely physical Also you could make some moves do both like a venom theme move that does physical damage the same turn it’s used and deals chemical and applys the status the second
I propose that the Forte type has a sort of build-up, wind-down cadence, in which powerful attacking moves are unleashed for a few turns that generate lactic acid on the user which have some negative effect like lowering speed or attack stat, and then must be mitigated using more defensive moves which erase stacks of lactic acid. Say we have a Forte type creature with two attacking moves and two defensive moves. It uses an attacking move at full power (which is higher than average because the creature has a higher than average attack stat) for one turn, which builds a stack of lactic acid. This decreases its attack stat by, say, twenty percent. It then attacks again on its second turn, generating another stack, which reduces its attack down to half. Then in its next two turns it utilizes defensive moves to heal itself or mitigate damage, apply a debuff, etc., which all erase stacks of lactic acid, perhaps even giving it a buff of some sort. Then the cycle repeats. Thus we have a physical and chemical component to the creature type.
The Chemical version of Forta could be tied to the strength of chemical bonds - attacks tied too it could make it easier to damage an opponent or harder for your opponent to damage you, like some sort of catalyst action I think approaching the physical chemical split in terms of metaphor alongside literal interpretation might be the way to go Physical could be about obvious, hands on, direct stuff - direct bang for buck, you think about the subject this is what comes to mind Chemical can be about more subdued/sinister or generally not as obvious things - things that make more wide ranging effect using a deeper understanding of their subject Perhaps that could flavor how each ones moves gains secondary attributes (if you do that) - physical could be for short term obvious gain while chemical could be more subtle, set up type stuff
One thing I think is cool in games is the instant death mechanic, if there was a version of strong poison in this game that also had a chance to instantly kill, or if applying more poison to a creature that is already poisoned has a chance to instantly kill that could be cool. Like the effective dosage of the poison is much higher than what is required to cause the status effect, so the instant death chance could be inversely related to how heavy the targeted creature is
I was hoping you would mention something I am struggling to deal with when deciding whether to have a toxic type in my own elemental system: the differences between poison and acid damage. Because poison (and venom) act differently from acid (and base/alkaline), damaging living cells vs corrosion to the material itself. This would be relevant in things like damage to metal: poison wouldn't have much of an effect, but acid could dissolve it. Does that make sense? If n0Rtist or anyone else has any thoughts on the matter, please reply, I would love to hear them!
I like to think types or elements in terms of what kind of damage they deal and body composition. I know in my Pokeclone, there are types that are offensive-only or defensive-only because they don't have much of a body or an original attack. My poison-type is both-offensive and defensive, however. Poison specifically damages the organic body and attacks certain cells and systems, while defensively it's all about harmful chemicals, and what would be best against it. Earth dilutes the chemicals, psychics are smart enough to cure said chemicals, while others are hesitant to touch it.
What if for the physical chemical challenge, you add a third option. It allows for more unique balancing with the stats and you can balance types around not having moves of every option but Atleast having 2 options so it doesn’t feel stagnant. Love what you’ve been making and hope this helps!
i think the idea to make moves physical and chemical is a really good idea. it could help make more creative ideas for moves and can help avoid problems such as moves that could be considered both physical and special
honestly i’d love to see more videos that focus on you spitballing ideas for mechanical gameplay aspects of stema like how combat works, the type system, or how the stats and levelling up works!! 🩷
If you want a more niche inspiration for Cantri, I suggest Physarum Polycephalum, since among it's unique properties of pathfinding, it, as you described for Cantri, can come together with other's of it's kind to become one. in addition, Cantri's design is already similar to Physarum and It's shiny is even the right color.
Final Fantasy 1 actually had a poison element in its elemental chart list, but Poison's only attacks were either enemy-to-hero attacks that inflict a Poison status or all-or-nothing instakill poison (Bane spell) so its being an "element" only mattered for immunities. In the same game, Earth only had instant-kill attacks (QAKE) and the Time element was connected to multiple buffs, debuffs, and an instant-kill move.
Another potential solution to preventing a slow paced style with a poison type is introducing some mechanic involving mithridatism. To much exposure to “low level” toxins could result in increasing immunity. I’m imagining some akin to a move like toxic or poison powder has potentially falling under this situation, reducing damage from poison or even preventing the escalation of toxic damage. I think it could work for your game in particular because you intend for status conditions to be temporary within battles.
Thematically, a physical/chemical split works perfectly for STEMA. The only issue is the fact that this split is rooted in reality and can't be dreamed into existence like physical/special. However, this can be circumvented. You could just throw out the rule that each type needs to have attacks for both styles, kinda like how Pokemon originally had each type locked to physical/special. It does limit creature stat spreads a bit (since if Fighting never has any chemical attackers their chemical attack stat wouldn't be as useful), but as long as it's not for every type, it should be fine. Creatures learning moves of other types does also help mitigate this. What you could also do is make a move that explicitly changes chemical properties. Kinda like how Thunder Punch and Ice Fang both take normal-ish attacks and "flavor" them for new types. So you could have fantastical moves with scientifically accurate effects! I dunno, just some ideas. I love this game concept and your videos about it and I'm excited to see what comes next!
I have never thought about it, but with how I am actually working on something that includes creature collecting, I will likely have to think a bit on it whilst I create more of the creatures.
Those Zodiac beasts could be your version of legendary/mythical Pokemon. Something still tied to science, but with a bit of a metaphysic aspect to them, to make them stand out a bit.
i think the physical toxic could be more related to inflammation, like how some plants have crystalline structures that make them viably poisonous, even though there is no "poison" that alters the chemical balance of the cells, just small crystals that rupture the cells physically, inducing a inflammatory response from the body
Idea: a legendary Pokemon based on the theory of Roko's Basilisk. Perhaps the backstory is that it was built by humans, but gained sentience and began on a rampage to destroy those who didn't contribute to its development, kind of like a reverse Mewtwo.
Personally, I used to think poison's a poor type, but this video really changed my opinion. I'm not very artistic, but to me what makes a typing good is theming, and I've realized poison can spout off so many good themes.
Fun fact about Toxic: when used by Poison-types, due to it never missing, it'll even hit semi-invulnerable Pokémon. (First turn of Dig, Fly, Dive, moves like those.)
I think they recently changed it to not hit during semi-invulnerable turns
@@glowcloudwheatproducts495 Nah just tested it in showdown it still works the same.
@@tanksforsomethingfun fact, showdown isn’t the real game
hope this helps!!!
@@Gatebreakerglitcher a quick check to the wikis and it's still not patched out. The only thing they patch out (in Sword and Shield) was the Toxic sure-hit glitch which is not related to toxic hitting semi-invuln pokemons
@@GatebreakerglitcherI mean, considering some of the weird quirks I've found when making my own modded showdown client/server, it's pretty much always close enough for testing stuff like that, they even included the weird confusion duration change on Axe Kick (it's guaranteed to last at least one turn longer than the normal minimum iirc)
Your mention of lactic acid actually sparked an idea: Anything to excess can be poison.
Helpful medicines taken too far, working out too hard, or even drinking too much water- these are actions that can poison yourself.
Then there's bodily functions that can be taken too far; immune systems working too hard can result in autoimmune issues like psoriasis, cells growing out of control can cause growths/tumors/cancer, and nerves being overly sensitive can result in horrible pain or even losing consciousness from the mere act of laughing too hard.
Perhaps the poison type for STEMA could play on that?
So perhaps you could play like an alchemist, tossing around stat ups/downs or healing traits that when stacked enough apply a poison?
going off of excess medicine being harmful, what if spamming healing items (or any item for that matter) stops working or even applies poison after a certain amount? It could dissuade stalling strategies, or be a way for chemosynthetic creatures to inflict themselves with poison without relying on the enemy poisoning them by mistake.
Yea could be a medicine type some thing like that. And the creatur can heal, buff or debuff, damage
basically an easy way to nerf any strategy that spams too much, while also encouraging spamming with the chemosynthetic ability. Really, this sounds like a good idea aside from the chemosynthetic ability.
There's a lot of RPGs with toxicity and reactiveness integrated
Either you go pokemon route for direct poison type, or you use it as a resource or currency for moves.
You can have healing that works one one type and is toxic to another, diminishing returns, reative combos that have different effects.
It can be really simple or really complex.
Think less about "poison" and more about chemistry and physics. Heat will exercise a reaction to... and so on.
And if think about poison, there isn't just"venom" noxious fumes, spores, dehydration, radiation... An environment rich in CO2 and heat might be toxic to aerobical living form, but is a paradise for plants, but if is a fire spreading, then it changes everything.
Pokemon figured it out with abilities, poison is both a type, status and mechanic, but none of them are synonyms to each other, you can scrap the whole idea of poison DoT and name it Alfredo it you want, you can change the poison type to Ophiuchus if you want, you can make a DoTfor motivation and depression if you feel like it, mechanics are mechanics and names are just placeholders for flavortext, just do a mechanic that makes sense for the game that it will make sense in the game and for the players even if everything are just NATO alphabet, there's nothing new under the sun and doesn't matter if something makes sense or not, only if something works or not, everything else is just flavortext. Doesn't matter if it has terrain control from chrono cross, combos from omori or guilty gaia or is the characters look like they came from Golden Axe, you have damage, dot, currency/resource, buff/debuff, if-else checks for conditionals, in the end of the day, that won't change, these things only exists to mold the experience in the way intended.
Want the holy trinity? If you make the healer OP, the job of everyone will be to keep the healer alive while the other side is doing everything they can to kill the healer. The healer is useless? Well, everyone will focus on mitigation either by reducing the enemies asap so they do less damage and everything is a dps check race, or they have absurd levels of terrain control so their enemies are as ineffective as possible and so on. Everything is mechanics and they only exists to control how the experience is supposed to be.
idea: fossil creatures that instead of fossils that need to be revived they are based on old scientific theories that has been later in history dissproven. sorry if bad english :(
edit: omg msm yay i love that game :D
"sorry if bad english" you say after speaking nearly completely flawlessly and better than most native speakers
Like Galar's fossil Pokemon, Which are a nod to dinosaur bones being badly put together?
like some kind of geocentric creature, or a ghost that lives in people’s blood?
Ultraviolet catastrophe creature would be NUT
String Theory
Phlogiston/Caloric Theory
Nemesis Star (a hypothetical red dwarf star located beyond the Oort cloud that was supposedly part of a binary system with our sun)
Planet Vulcan (a hypothetical planet meant to explain the peculiarities of Mercury's orbit prior to the theorization of relativity)
Polywater (a supposed new state of water "discovered" by a Soviet scientist and causing massive controversy during the Cold War, only to be revealed to be just water with contaminants from sweating)
Bodily Humors (phlegm, blood, bile, and melancholy)
Phrenology
Continental Drift and Newtonian Physics are also technically "obsolete", though they have been incorporated and improved upon by their successors (plate tectonics and relativistic physics/quantum physics) instead of being completely replaced
Definitely a Poison type supporter. Hazardous substances can be incorporated in so many ways that it is fertile ground for creature designs. It's also worth noting that real world poisons and venoms can have a multitude of different effects. Paralysis, necrosis, blood clotting, and more could all be represented in unique ways as additional effects paired with the standard DoT. Consider conditions that prevent healing or force a creature to move last in the turn order. There is a lot to explore with the concept in terms of mechanics.
Poison as a status condition I'm a big supporter of.
Poison as a type, though? Not so much. What even is the logic behind Poison being weak to Psychic or Ground? What's the logic of Temtem's equivalent being weak to Wind? If pollution's hazardous nature is the logic behind it killing Grass, why not Bug and one of Flying or Water in addition? I understand a pile of goo being resistant to Fighting, but why are the Nidoran family of animals also resistant to Fighting when other animals with similar skins and skeletons are weak to it?
Poison being weak to Bug was nonsense, aside from theming ("Bad guys use Poison, Bug is heroic, heroes beat bad guys!") but Bug losing its weakness to Poison was very bad for overall game balance and especially bad for Poison.
I always loved the hazard types like poison, plague, toxin, nuclear, virus, chemical, sludge, ooze, slime, pollution, venom etc
@@RoninCatholic Maybe they removed Bug's weakness because there's no reason only Bugs are explicitly weak to Poison? Humans are willing to poison all kinds of pests; bugs are just the most acceptable ones. (Edit: in theory it'd make more sense for Normal to be weak to Poison as well as Fighting if that were the thought process. I think in general they just realized having the Super Effective while Also Being Weak to the Same Type was a Sword of Damocles that might confuse some players and make the damage overwhelming, which is why future gens rarely did that with other types moving forward.)
As for Psychic, I speculate it's either a "Mind over Matter" concept or else knowing that the Poison is there and being able to mitigate it though that's usually from not making contact with it more realistically. With regards to Ground, I'm also only speculating it could be because fresh earth could be used to bury and nullify it over time but I don't know if that actually works IRL either (since you can ruin dirt.) The combined mention of Bug, Ground, and Poison just got me thinking about Nausicaa all of a sudden lol.
I personally love how abstract it is. It includes poisonous and venomous creatures, pollution, illness, acid, etc. it makes for very unique blend of critters that have it as a type.
Poison makes way more sense as a type than dragon
I don't really like the poison idea you suggested. You may want to discourage passive gameplay, but when everything is focused on offense the entire game becomes finding who deals the most damage and removes a pretty simple player expression method. Defense is needed to balance against offensive playstyles
Yeah, I do think some passiveness is needed to diversify gameplay and not make it into damage race simulator 5000.
Yep, it's also why status moves and moves with secondary effects are good. It makes the lines of play more fun and varied. Sure, you Could click scratch twice, but what if you clicked SD once and then clicked scratch? Or what if you clicked rapid spin to remove hazards and ensure you move first? What if you click spore and watch them disconnect?
That’s what Pokemon is already. There is some passive gameplay with switching and protect, but no one uses poison in competitive pokemon. All the most common support pokemon just use fake out, follow me, or helping hand, all intended to maximize the damage of the high stats damage dealer.
@@davidgomez5032 this is a crazy take. In doubles, sure, but that's in modern doubles. Glummora has historically been very good in the earlier formats with mortal spin, and other passive effects like burn are a defining part of reg G. There's also amazing tanks like incineroar and raging bolt that use defense and make teams bulkier. in singles, passive gameplay is enabled very effectively by dondozo and glowking
You've heard of Big Stall, now comes Big Aggro
One form of poison in games that I really like is when a poison effect paints part of the health bar. Then that section withers away over time but no more than what is painted.
In some games, you're not allowed to heal that shaded bar until the poison wears off too, which is pretty cool
@@monkaeyes3417 I need this in pokemon. Toxic stall is cheap
Early gen solutions:
Toxic being given only to mons it made sense to, increasing viability for poison types.
Poison being super effective against water
100% agree
I poisoned
The water supply
Now everyone ded
Oops
@@The7thLysineinyourDNAKefka...
Poison should have continued being Super Effective against Bug as well. Bug defeating it in the first generation was entirely because Dark didn't exist yet, and "Poison" was the "evil" type so Bug being the "underdog hero" type was highly effective against it while Fighting struggled (opposite of Rock, where Normal struggles against it but the technical aspect of Fighting gives the martial arts man the know-how to smash the rocks at a relative 4x effectiveness).
@@The7thLysineinyourDNA
Super Ghostbusters mentioned
5:21 on fast paced teams, one layer of t-spikes is prefered because toxic poison only outdamages normal poison from the 4th turn onward.
Thus, sweepers appreciate normal poison much more, as it brings their checks into ko range quicker.
BKC made a great video on this btw
I was going to leave this exact same comment, BKC vid and all
Love how you included msm, but also i have to know how much you know about the game, because it definitely has an above average amount of elements, most of which being unique to one or a handful of monsters
most of the unique elements come from seasonals... but excluding that there's still a handful more.
I really do like the design choices given to multi-element monsters though, such as the magical, natural and ethereals. And how quad elementals represent their island and single elemental monsters represent the more basic concept of their element.
There's definitely a lot of layers to their designs, from how the instrument is incorporated, their descriptions, and how elements interact with eachother in that design.
Even the islands themselves are unique types of creatures with their own design! there is for sure a lot to be discussed when it comes to collectable monster designs in msm
Was not expecting mention of My Singing Monsters, my favorite thing in existence! And in a video about my favorite element/type theme at that!
0:48 I never realized the my singing monsters was a creature collector. Now that you've told me I've got a whole new perspective of life!!!
Who's that mon? 🦠👻🔩
@@The7thLysineinyourDNA
IIIIIIIIITS
Piplash!!!!!
(Headbanging) @@JaddsdaLadd
@@JaddsdaLadd its Yooreek.
Piplash is 👻🔩☣️.
@@JaddsdaLadd HEAVY METAL SOUNDS INTENSIFY
Poison is my favorite type/ element in general, Pokémon aside. Something about weakening and softening up opponents with seemingly small amounts of damage that inevitably snowball out of the opponent’s control is unbelievably satisfying to me. Also poison aesthetics are almost always cool looking, so I’m glad they’ll still be thing here.
Bro I genuinely get happy when you upload. Your vids are hella entertaining and your designs are amazing. Keep it up 👍🏾
I feel like a way of differentiating a 'Poison' typing is to do something different with its status effects rather than losing HP over time.
I'm thinking there could be two status effects:
1. Corrosion - the afflicted target's defense drops at the end of every turn it's still afflicted with Corrosion
2. Toxification - the afflicted target is slowed and less accurate with its moves as long as it's Toxified.
rather than being a 'damage over time' type, Poison becomes a vicious debuff type. the acidic and sludgey fighters get Corrosion, and the venomous and gaseous fighters get Toxification.
alternatively Acid could be separate from Poison, and even contrasted against a Basic type. Acid and Basic would be mutually super-effective.
i like this. toxins can do so much. nausia, paralysis, necrosis.
"Toxification" could work better as a status if you removed the accuracy penalty and instead added an effect which ONLY damaged the sufferer if they attacked.
Accuracy reduction is a very unhealthy mechanic which takes control away from the player.
The heafty DoT ONLY when attacking would produce the same outcome, but also place control in the hands of the player. They'd be put on a timer that they can control.
Think about it this way for flavor: A toxin works faster when your blood is pumping, like by attacking.
those are interesting ideas! I was hoping n0Rtist would mention this in the video, because it's something I am struggling to deal with when deciding whether to have a toxic type in my own elemental system: the differences between poison and acid damage. Because poison (and venom) act differently from acid (and base/alkaline), damaging living cells vs corrosion to the material itself. This would be relevant in things like damage to metal: poison wouldn't have much of an effect, but acid could dissolve it. Does that make sense?
I enjoy how you mix mini videos essays about Pokemon/the creature collection genre with your devlogs. It's honestly a breath of fresh air within the format... I'm going to steal it when I finally decide to start making a game (I'll credit you with the idea.)
Thought regarding attack and defense types:
Make 3 types (physical, chemical, and molecular) and let each attack have up to 2 of those at a time; calculate the average of the 2 attack types for the damage part of the math, calculate the average of the 2 defense types for for the resistance part of the math, and hey presto! There you go.
Physical = force trauma (slicing, piercing, blunt)
Chemical = chemical changes
Molecular = changes in the molecular structure (like changing states of matter)
Might make things a little more complicated, but would probably solve some conundrums that were mentioned.( i.e. envenom being both physical and chemical, freezing being molecular, etc.)
Just my 2 cents of an idea.
I'm willing to bet all of my money if the zodiac he mentions will 'have a nice day today'
WOE: good day be upon you
My money is on the last one being ‘have a bad day today
Well, now tomorrow's is gonna be "have a somewhat mediocre day today"
@@JustacommenterLol-ic4cu bad day? Bad Time?
0:49 MY SINGING MONSTER MENTION!!!1!
Best video covering a specific type yet! From the mechanics, to the analysis, to the change in concept for the type! It blew my mind when you boiled It down to a 'different set of chemicals'
Okay, I actually have so many ideas I want to share right now!!!
1. For a forceful chemical attack, how about explosive materials? Things you would put the "Explosive" hazard symbol on in a laboratory. School never taught me why they differentiate "explosive" and "flammable", but Wikipedia says it's for substances that contain a lot of potential energy, not just catching on fire(though it's a common cause).
So it includes things like pressurised gas(physical attack?), as well as sodium(chemical) and even the radioactive isotopes used in nuclear reactors.
2.If you ever redesign the Zodiac-mons, is it possible to make Cantri look more crab-like? It only looks a little like a crab to me, but I have a bigger reason than that: to reference Carcinisation, aka "the many attempts of Nature to evolve a crab"(actual quote from a scientist). The idea being that of all the forms for a lump of cells to take, it's a crab. Side note: maybe make it really big so that it becomes a "Giant Enemy Crab".
And this just occurred to me looking at the Hazard symbols, but a lot of what entertainment as a whole(movies, TV shows, games, etc.) views "poison" and adjacent things like acid are really just the idea of "harmful chemicals". Being corrosive, biohazardous, radioactive, or toxic are all lumped into this one category of thing. This also extends to the general aesthetic of pollution/urbanisation: the idea of being harmful for the environment.
Also you know how billions of neon signs is a staple design element in the cyberpunk genre? For some reason, my brain is making me think of aposematism: the _advertising_ of an animal that it maybe be dangerous to deal with.
i have nothing to add but i just want to say that i read and liked your ideas!
I'm really glad you are including the difference between poison and venom, I was hoping you would in your game.
and the physical/chemical differentiation sounds super interesting, I hope you pursue it for all types! (or at least the ones that make sense)
I love the 'chemical/physical' idea. Great way of differentiating attacks, feels very sciencey.
Woah, a mention of My Singing Monsters and Sludge Life 2! I've been playing msm forever and bought Sludge Life 2 on release because I loved the first game.
The more I hear about your game, the more I am getting excited for it! Love your thoughts about it so much :D
8:08 FLASQUE MENTIONED!!! ETHEREAL WORKSHOP MENTIONED!!!
MY SINGING MONSTERS MENTIONED 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
@@hsandco9560 flasque is my frinds fav monster
RHYSMUTH
Blarret 🔥🔥🔥
PENTUMBRA
LETS GO MSM IS MENTIONED!
I love that game so much!
i cant blieve how perfect timing this video is!!! ive been developing my own tamer so i love watching vids on your own process and others building out the concept, and as i keep trying to figure out how i wanna sort out types or the battle mechanics/system as a whole, i keep running into poison and how i wanna approach it.
now personally, i don't see it making it as a type for my concept, despite my audience badly wanting one and even offering their own takes so it could fit my universe. i for sure see it more as a must have as far as status condition, and i like the way you're handling it, and think it does fit the world of STEMA!
I do think its interesting how its become a staple type in a lot of tamers after pokemon, which has lead to creating a lot of expectations for many mechanics/elements in these kinds of games.
also, cantri's design and execution is pretty dope, great work nort!
ok bye and talk to u later nort ok.
Having a poison type isn't too surprising since it's meant to represent poisonous/venomous animals and having a type based around that likely would've been the easiest way to portray them in an era before abilities. Even after abilities have been introduced, I still like that poison is its own type since you can add abilities along with powering up poison attacks.
Ngl The transition with the soundtrack To fit the topic But still keeping the regular soundtrack vibe is Sick
8:07 Malchemy mentioned, today is a good day (im also obliged to say that seeing MSM brought up alongside creature collector RPGs gave me a bit of whiplash, but admittedly Bugsnax gave me the same reaction)
9:26 you just made leftovers gliscor, what have you done
MY SINGING MONSTERS MENTIONED
Haven't seen one of your videos since I started researching to make my own collector series, but was pondering on this same issue. I think poison as an effect and an ability works better for mine, though I have my own system I'm building instead of "standard" elements. (Yu-Gi-Oh Attributes × Tao and 8 Gates. Elements are figured out, just need to make the sketches into svgs, and figure out the interactions)
Anyways! Awesome video! Excited to see yours as well!
Heya! I've been watching ur channel for awhile and really enjoy the in-depth discussions you have about these science topics (applying science to monster collecting makes it super fun)
Funny note but I realized light was even a Ykw attribute when it was brought up lol
your creativity always makes me wonder whats next for Pokemon, what is the next gimmick forms gonna be about, just few years back regional forms seemed so crazy now we have dino volcarona & they/them Gallevoir robot
i do think poison is a type that deserves a spot on the type chart, maybe because im so accustomed to the 18 types used pokemon but everything just makes sense for the most part i still think bug types deserve some kind of a buff, fairy resisting them was an overkill
light/sound/air/alien are popular types that most fans want add, annoyingly so in fact, but pokemon has found other ways of including these elements without adding these types
16:06 Yo-Kai Watch mentioned, let’s go
😮😮😊
The first physical force with a chrcmical effect I thought of was pressure. Like squeezing carbon into diamonds. I dunno 🤷
I almost always listen to these at work. Today is the first time I’ve actually seen the designs you’ve drawn, and they are awesome. I really like your art style. I can’t believe I haven’t seen them until now.
I enjoy the idea of physical and chemical split! And the passive learning option one could get from it is truly enjoyable to imagine!
A Cancer Cancer is definitely something I don't think Pokémon will ever do, at least to this degree.
They already did a Cell Pokemon, now all they need to do is add a Poison-type regional variant of it... But that sounds way too gruesome of GameFreak to actually do, like you mentioned
@@marleneozebiadosreis9114they literally made a regional variant along those lines with Corsola
@@marleneozebiadosreis9114NGL, a version of the Cell Pokémon that evolves like Magnemite or Dugtrio would be fun.
@@creature6715 Well climate disaster is par for the course for poison types being living pollution since gen 1 but a specific disease is a bridge too far
The physical/chemical split is an incredibly cool idea for this game
I’m having a nice day today! Yippee!
9:30 - I think it would be cool if you did both!
Radiation Stage 0 - Stems are immune to Radiation Damage
Radiation Stage 1 - Stems take resistant damage to Radiation Damage and take 1/16th damage per turn.
Radiation Stage 2 - Stems take neutral damage to Radiation Damage and take 1/8th damage per turn.
Radiation Stage 3 - Stems take super effective damage to Radiation Damage and take 1/4th damage per turn.
Applying Radiation Stages will reset the Radiation timer, and each 2 turn the Radiation timer decreases, it also drops the stage of Radiation down by 1.
For the Physical/Chemical split, you could deliberately lean in to the awkwardness of applying them both to all types equally as a design choicd. Early gens of Pokemon had each type be purely physical or special, and this has important impacts on the game. Gen 3 competitive is good to look at for this: Skarmory has high defense but no physical weaknesses at all due to typing, so is excellent as a wall. Blaziken is theoretically a good mixed attacker as its STABs belong to both offensive stats. Dark is special (why) so Tyranitar has to commit to a weaker offensive stat to get good mileage out of it. Gengar rarely uses STAB attacks and instead uses varied special coverage options, the Ghost and Poison types still relevant defensively.
Gloomhaven is a board game where Poison status does no damage over time (reserved for Bleeding) but instead each attack to a Poisoned target deals an additional point of damage. So a similar concept to yours where poison simply weakens the target to further hits.
Q: Does Poison Work as a Type?
A: Yes it most certainly does I can (and if I remember: will) elaborate as to why when I am back to write an essay..
tl;dr though: For my TTRPG kind of game I play with my friends "Corruption" is one of the types you have to fight which has a lot of similarities to Poisonous / venomous / pollution based things and one of the three main staples of the game.
Note: If my Alzheimers LITE does not kick me to the curve, I will be back to elaborate.. lol
I will reply to my own comment as I watched one of your other videos I actually remembered to add a long written explanation!
There are basically 3 'types' so to speak which I created..
Know that despite it being very intricate and a 4 years long project so far.. the way it started was simple, hung with friends online, but everybody fell silent, anyone have this issue that when stuff just falls silent you feel silently pressured to speak up and start a conversation?
Well eventually I just snapped and thought 'Screw it, time to fix this' and just began typing like a rabid monkey on the keyboard, coming up with ideas and start implementing see what sticks and what does not.
Came up with the following;
In the storyline, it's about Catfolk having to cure a corruption that has seeped into their realms.
Felinity, the type that would stand for good deals more damage against Corruption however they are weak to balanced.
Explanation: Good vs Evil, Felinity vs Corruption, potato-potato vs tomato-tomato.
The Balanced part actually comes from that not everybody 'needs' help. No matter how good some intentions are, sometimes things are uncalled for.
Balanced, the type that stands for neither side, being indifferent to it, maybe you don't like one thing or another but you do not do anything to stop it either.
They are strong against Felinity, weak to Corruption.
Then there is Corruption, the evil type so to speak which stereotypically poison falls under.
It's strong against balanced, as Corruption preys on the weak and undecided but weak against Felinity.
So if part of the Felinity / Balanced crew, you eventually get to choose a path of life to follow with Abilities to unlock and make your character stronger in their field.
Path of the Striker, which increases Health.
Path of the Stalker, which increases Regeneration.
And path of the Sprinter, which increases Stamina.
Then there's the Path of Corruption, which lowers all stats slightly except for your Damage output which significantly increases making you basically a Glass cannon.
So far, I've managed to create 3 worlds for my friends and I, all with their own individual unique paths and while the primary trio is easy to make and build upon depending on the scenery of the world.
The reason why is to not make it feel stale, and giving unique twists and turns for challenges to every world that you have to tackle.
You'd think Corruption would be difficult, but far from it, in my opinion it is the easiest to write and is extraordinarily versatile.
Whether it's Poison in from of a dark Corruption, to pollution, to dense liquids like sludge, or path created to deal with gasses or mind control in any form of way, there are so many things that you are able to think of when it comes to poison.
It does not even all have to be bad either as many vaccines are made with dead cells or extremely small dosages of poisons to help you become more resistant to it.
Not only do I believe that Poison works as a type, I believe it is one of the most easy to write out of all of them and is best off in any form as a main staple in any game that deals with 'typing charts'
Note, I'm no professional game creator, just an introvert with a fiery passion to avoid awkward moments full of pressure.
Just slamming stuff to the wall - see what sticks and see what doesn't but if I learned one thing is that any form of "Poison" in this case Corruption was a very smart choice to make.
Then also there are lingering combat effects, poison is one of them as well this comes directly fresh from my notes how I decided to implement it.
Basically, you have to see them in a manner like this as to how it is inflicted:
Poisoned = Tier 1 infliction
Badly poisoned = Tier 2 infliction
Heavily poisoned = Tier 3 infliction
To get Poisoned well, simply... 1
If you get Poisoned again, it turns to a Bad poisoning.
1+1 = 2
However here it becomes more complicated as to get to the 3rd effect you have to be inflicted by 2 Bad poisoning.
Poisoned + Badly poisoned = just Badly poisoned.
Badly poisoned + Badly poisoned = Heavily poisoned.
2 heavy makes 1 deadly and 2 deadly makes one terminally.
-> Poison
Name of the lingering effect: Poisoned
Health drained per turn: -2
Additonal information: None
Name of the lingering effect: Badly poisoned
Health drained per turn: -4
Additonal information: Inflicted by being poisoned twice.
Name of the lingering effect: Heavily poisoned
Health drained per turn: -16
Additonal information: Inflicted by having 2 Badly poisoned effects applied.
Name of the lingering effect: Deadly poisoned
Health drained per turn: -64
Additonal information: Inflicted by having 2 Heavily poisoned effects applied.
This effect does NOT wear off after combat.
Name of the lingering effect: Terminally poisoned
Health drained per turn: -256
Additonal information: Inflicted by having 2 Deadly poisoned effects applied.
This effect does NOT wear off after combat.
There are ways to cure the last two which are very difficult for obvious reasons, then again it is also very difficult to get there to begin with.
So you probably messed up really bad to get there and if it goes that far you'd have to work together as a team to get it fixed before death takes you.
This is just 1 on the few "Lingering combat effects" and I share this as it is also relevant, considering how versatile this can be.
Another lingering combat effect that works similarly to poison = bleeding.
As well as Burning and Frostbites.
The Burning effect is weaker than poisoning but cuts attack, Frostbite same but increases your Stamina usage to do anything whilst bleed starts off very weak, but can applied consecutively and stacks without limitation but it potentially even deadlier than the other ones if played right with the right Paths.
Once more you can see how effective Poison can be as a lingering combat effect enabling strategies that you previously couldn't have done.
Having nerded out long enough I'm not expecting anyone to read this all, lol
But I thankfully remembered to post the full length explanation why poison in whatever way you add it into your game is always a net benefit in one way or another.
It adds more than it takes away and is a great enhancer to any project!
For anyone who read this far - I am so sorry for wasting your time, lol...
My main comment had a tl;dr after all.. lol
Loved the video, and I have some thoughts on how your Zodiac beast could fit in to a group of niche topics, to an extent. As a biology student, I'd like to point out that Petri dishes can be very niche! While they are frequently used in Biology, it's a known problem that most (read: probably 90% or more) bacterial species won't grow on agar plates/in Petri dishes. Petri dishes most closely mimic a human body (gel/flesh-like nutrient rich substance, 37 or so degrees centigrade etc) so while they're great for finding out what diseases can infect us, they aren't so good for research into other kinds of bacteria. There are whole clades that go uncategorised simply because they dislike growing in lab conditions! Maybe your creature could play into the 'pickiness' of which bacteria live on agar plates, or human biases/limitations and how that affects research in biology.
It's super interesting and weird that Pokemon even has a Poison type, especially it being in Gen 1, so early in the game's life.
But I honestly think it was pretty genius from Gamefreak. You can tell that even early on, they weren't just going for elements with the types but also aspects and personalities with their monsters.
One of the most prevalent parts of the animal kingdom in the real world is poison/venom. It's a type that, without including, they'd be missing out on a ton of design space that they've utilised really well by now.
I've always seen Poison as a type for pokemon designs that are misunderstood. They are considered dangerous, but theyre not evil/cruel/aggressive like Dark types. It's that kind of natural indifference. The "they won't hurt you if you don't interfere with them" that you have with real world spiders, snakes, and other venomous/poisonous creatures.
11:23 Can't you just not? I think it'd be pretty interesting to have a few types that are locked into one category or the other, even if it's just one type for each. I do want to know what Psychic, Ghost, and the other fantastical types will be like with regards to the physical chemical split, as they obviously don't have real world counterparts to copy off of.
I was so happy that I was able to get creative with my Zodiac legends in my fanmade Pokemon region, only to then see that my favorite TH-camr is using the same idea. :/ Now I will keep the designs that I have made the same, because you did say that you're not sure if you'll make the Zodiac Beasts a reality in your game, but still that was a weird coincidence.
i really like your poison type idea, makes a lot of sense for a poison type to be offensive and aggresive
Interesting that Pokemon changed Poison from being effectiv against Bug to normal damage against it. I always forget that this is the case and always wonder why today it isn't effectiv, as it would make sense in real life with pestizides.
Great videos as always! Thank you for making these videos and showing us new ways in thinking about these topics and mechanics. Also I really like your artstyle and your creativity with your designs. ^^
You’re goated
Poison stopped sounding like a word about halfway through the video.
Thank you for the video.
0:48
8:05
MY SINGING MONSTERS (the greatest game of all time) MENTIONED!!!
Never expected n0Rtist to mention My Singing Monsters, what a pleasant surprise
He even technically stayed on brand by using the most "science-y" of the poison Ethereals, Flasque.
Pentumbra
00:42 MSM MENTIONED! MY SINGING MONSTERS!
Now that he has brought up my singing monsters, he has to make a video about msm someday
Cancer being named after crabs is kind of humorous in a way
Very cool video
You could make one or multiple designs based on types of symbiosis (mutualism, parasitism, commensalism etc.) one could be one design which changes forms, or multiple different ones
MSM MENTIONED
Idk why i had this idea to add a corrosion attack, similar to freeze-dry now it can deal super effective damage to type that should resist it maybe steel ot sum.
To counteract the issue of physical vs chemical not lining up aesthetically, you could either
A: Add a third category; Wave/ Radiant- which would commonly target one of the other two defenses and have its own attacking stat. This would allow certain moves be more "energy based" or fantastical while still dealing physical damage, and this would also fix the issue with sound moves using physical attack.
B: Make each attack specify both the attacking stat it uses and the defense stat it targets, making it more common to have moves target the opposite defense stat from the attack stat it uses. This would allow the creation of moves that deal with physical changes caused by chemicals and vise versa, like using liquid nitrogen to solidify something, or friction being used to start a fire.
C: Both
I understand that that would make things significantly more complicated, but honestly I think I'd like the extra layer of complexity.
Idea: what if you had more evolution stages I understand this might be hard or annoying to code or come up with the design but my idea is you design 2, 3, or more mons then you add more transition stages in between
You referenced msm! Thats one of my favorite games! Flasque is a very cool monster imo
I have an idea: what if you had physical and chemical, BUT split those two between ranged attacks and direct attacks
That petri dish design is really solid!
Okay, I'm loving this
NO WAY MY SINGING MONSTERS WAS MENTIONED ❤️
i think my favorite damage-over-time effect in video games is the Shroom effect in Wildfrost. it's a stackable effect, and different sources of it can vary in the amount they apply at once, but the really fun part to me is that the amount of Shroom applied to any given target is both a countdown of how many turns the effect will be active for and an indicator of how much damage the effect will deal in the current turn. it's a system that would definitely need a few tweaks in order to translate well in a pokemon-like combat style, but it does handily avoid encouraging passive gameplay.
Alternative to a physical/chemical split. What about macro and micro? Attacks that affect the opponent on a macroscopic level would cover things like standard punches, slashes, etc. While microscopic attacks are things that affect the opponent on a molecular level. I think that would allow for more freedom to design attacks of both kinds for every type. Fire can char things, which is a molecular process. Sound could agitate individual atoms. Psychic damage could be mostly microscopic, but if it has a large enough effect on the opponent’s behavior, you could reasonable call it macroscopic. You get the idea
I have an idea
What if moves can be both either physical/ chemical
Or
Melee/ranged
So ‘freeze ray’ could be [phys/ranged]
While ‘sludge punch’ could be [chem/melee]
2:24 Steel went through a bunch of changes in development, Steel used be immune to itself actually
Regarding the physical/chemical move issue, the first generation of pokemon had physical and special split among types, where all moves of that type were either physical or special regardless of contact (ex. all fighting moves were physical, all water moves were special). You probably don't want to go to that extreme of a level, but making it so some types are weighted much more heavily towards one or the other could illustrate how not all stem topics can be directly compared and could make players think harder about how they build their team's movesets to balance both typing and the physical/chemical coverage.
11:32 some types in Pokémon are biased in categories
Fairy only has ONE physical move (play rough)
And fighting is almost entirely physical
Also you could make some moves do both like a venom theme move that does physical damage the same turn it’s used and deals chemical and applys the status the second
I propose that the Forte type has a sort of build-up, wind-down cadence, in which powerful attacking moves are unleashed for a few turns that generate lactic acid on the user which have some negative effect like lowering speed or attack stat, and then must be mitigated using more defensive moves which erase stacks of lactic acid.
Say we have a Forte type creature with two attacking moves and two defensive moves. It uses an attacking move at full power (which is higher than average because the creature has a higher than average attack stat) for one turn, which builds a stack of lactic acid. This decreases its attack stat by, say, twenty percent. It then attacks again on its second turn, generating another stack, which reduces its attack down to half. Then in its next two turns it utilizes defensive moves to heal itself or mitigate damage, apply a debuff, etc., which all erase stacks of lactic acid, perhaps even giving it a buff of some sort. Then the cycle repeats. Thus we have a physical and chemical component to the creature type.
0:28 it’s how he had to clarify😂
The Chemical version of Forta could be tied to the strength of chemical bonds - attacks tied too it could make it easier to damage an opponent or harder for your opponent to damage you, like some sort of catalyst action
I think approaching the physical chemical split in terms of metaphor alongside literal interpretation might be the way to go
Physical could be about obvious, hands on, direct stuff - direct bang for buck, you think about the subject this is what comes to mind
Chemical can be about more subdued/sinister or generally not as obvious things - things that make more wide ranging effect using a deeper understanding of their subject
Perhaps that could flavor how each ones moves gains secondary attributes (if you do that) - physical could be for short term obvious gain while chemical could be more subtle, set up type stuff
One thing I think is cool in games is the instant death mechanic, if there was a version of strong poison in this game that also had a chance to instantly kill, or if applying more poison to a creature that is already poisoned has a chance to instantly kill that could be cool. Like the effective dosage of the poison is much higher than what is required to cause the status effect, so the instant death chance could be inversely related to how heavy the targeted creature is
I was hoping you would mention something I am struggling to deal with when deciding whether to have a toxic type in my own elemental system: the differences between poison and acid damage. Because poison (and venom) act differently from acid (and base/alkaline), damaging living cells vs corrosion to the material itself. This would be relevant in things like damage to metal: poison wouldn't have much of an effect, but acid could dissolve it. Does that make sense? If n0Rtist or anyone else has any thoughts on the matter, please reply, I would love to hear them!
I like to think types or elements in terms of what kind of damage they deal and body composition. I know in my Pokeclone, there are types that are offensive-only or defensive-only because they don't have much of a body or an original attack. My poison-type is both-offensive and defensive, however. Poison specifically damages the organic body and attacks certain cells and systems, while defensively it's all about harmful chemicals, and what would be best against it. Earth dilutes the chemicals, psychics are smart enough to cure said chemicals, while others are hesitant to touch it.
Am i the only one that thinks poison should have less of a punk aesthetic and more of a fun oversatureted chaotic yet grim one ?
I didn't have this image in my mind before, but now that it is I'm joining you. I like both a lot tbh
The new Lsd/drug type
@@N0rth_Star literally yes
@@N0rth_Star*IS THAT A UNDERTALE YELLOW REFERENCE*!?!?
@@AnDeledelewoop yes
What if for the physical chemical challenge, you add a third option. It allows for more unique balancing with the stats and you can balance types around not having moves of every option but Atleast having 2 options so it doesn’t feel stagnant.
Love what you’ve been making and hope this helps!
you just summoned the msm fandom
i think the idea to make moves physical and chemical is a really good idea. it could help make more creative ideas for moves and can help avoid problems such as moves that could be considered both physical and special
what abt moves that are both chemical and physical? Like a napalm explosion which does the concussive blast and lights the enemy on fire?
@@curious9904 in this case maybe burning could be some sort of status?
honestly i’d love to see more videos that focus on you spitballing ideas for mechanical gameplay aspects of stema like how combat works, the type system, or how the stats and levelling up works!! 🩷
this is the first time ive heard him actually scream and i love it
Maybe it could be sickness type some thing like that. And it could debuff stats insted of damaging
If you want a more niche inspiration for Cantri, I suggest Physarum Polycephalum, since among it's unique properties of pathfinding, it, as you described for Cantri, can come together with other's of it's kind to become one. in addition, Cantri's design is already similar to Physarum and It's shiny is even the right color.
Final Fantasy 1 actually had a poison element in its elemental chart list, but Poison's only attacks were either enemy-to-hero attacks that inflict a Poison status or all-or-nothing instakill poison (Bane spell) so its being an "element" only mattered for immunities. In the same game, Earth only had instant-kill attacks (QAKE) and the Time element was connected to multiple buffs, debuffs, and an instant-kill move.
Another potential solution to preventing a slow paced style with a poison type is introducing some mechanic involving mithridatism. To much exposure to “low level” toxins could result in increasing immunity. I’m imagining some akin to a move like toxic or poison powder has potentially falling under this situation, reducing damage from poison or even preventing the escalation of toxic damage.
I think it could work for your game in particular because you intend for status conditions to be temporary within battles.
Thematically, a physical/chemical split works perfectly for STEMA. The only issue is the fact that this split is rooted in reality and can't be dreamed into existence like physical/special. However, this can be circumvented.
You could just throw out the rule that each type needs to have attacks for both styles, kinda like how Pokemon originally had each type locked to physical/special. It does limit creature stat spreads a bit (since if Fighting never has any chemical attackers their chemical attack stat wouldn't be as useful), but as long as it's not for every type, it should be fine. Creatures learning moves of other types does also help mitigate this.
What you could also do is make a move that explicitly changes chemical properties. Kinda like how Thunder Punch and Ice Fang both take normal-ish attacks and "flavor" them for new types. So you could have fantastical moves with scientifically accurate effects!
I dunno, just some ideas. I love this game concept and your videos about it and I'm excited to see what comes next!
I have never thought about it, but with how I am actually working on something that includes creature collecting, I will likely have to think a bit on it whilst I create more of the creatures.
i would love to see a video just going over how programmed different types and conditions
Those Zodiac beasts could be your version of legendary/mythical Pokemon. Something still tied to science, but with a bit of a metaphysic aspect to them, to make them stand out a bit.
It’s very interesting how people do different thumbnails, but sometimes it’s just like purple instead of yellow
Poison creates fun and unique creatures to design around. If we didn’t have a poison type, we wouldn’t have fun looking creatures.
Every time I think it’s behind me, the ash baby always comes back.
i think the physical toxic could be more related to inflammation, like how some plants have crystalline structures that make them viably poisonous, even though there is no "poison" that alters the chemical balance of the cells, just small crystals that rupture the cells physically, inducing a inflammatory response from the body
I like how your approach to Poison was similar to Street Fighter 6 with AKI
BRO I JUST SCREAMED WHEN I SAW THE SMALL BIT OF YO KAI WATCH AT THE END OF THE VIDEO OMG
Idea: a legendary Pokemon based on the theory of Roko's Basilisk. Perhaps the backstory is that it was built by humans, but gained sentience and began on a rampage to destroy those who didn't contribute to its development, kind of like a reverse Mewtwo.
Personally, I used to think poison's a poor type, but this video really changed my opinion. I'm not very artistic, but to me what makes a typing good is theming, and I've realized poison can spout off so many good themes.