I just wanted to quickly thank all the comments kindly correcting me on the nuances of the mentioned indie games. These were my honest understandings of their respective mechanics when I was coding in my ATP system a few weeks ago; however it turns out there are a few more cases of immunities offered by a few of Coromon's Enhanced Traits and Temtem's 2 Synthesizing traits. Additionally, while not related to immunities, I was made aware that Cassette Beasts do have a damage multiplier in their type matchups and Pokemon's choice specs and scarf were Gen IV additions. While immunities are still rare in these other games as no general type matchup does 0x the damage, I do want to avoid spreading erroneous details in the future. I'll continue to work on my game, and I'll make it clearer that my videos are reflecting my thought process behind the decisions I made for my game. Also, mixing up the titles in the beginning is straight up my mistake; do NOT edit videos at 3AM... Thank you again to everyone for being interested in my works!
You probably want to pin this comment since I only saw it from scrolling comments. Thanks for being a good person and actively fighting misinforming your viewers!
Correction on cassette beasts: effective moves deal 1.25x damage and ineffective moves deal 0.75x, but the buffs/debuffs are much more impactful than the damage modifiers so it’s easy to overlook
It feels like nothing, I had no idea about it and finished the game. Honestly, types here need more resistances, it's so easy to trample the whole game with a single boosted Beast glass cannon
I think that's the thing that does make Cassette Beasts more interesting, you mention the damage boost is still there but hearing you say it's just x1.25 and x0.75 just proves more the interesting thing of Cassette Beast matchups more so being like "reactions" of types and interactions. Raw damage isn't always the name of the game, the interactions of buffs/debuffs is what tends to more so determine the fight. (Though I must admit 2 majorly off matchup in Cassette Beasts though, both involving Wind. Fire almost becomes helpless against Wind attribute, since on attack it generates a Wind Wall because of Updraft and on defense Fire gets an attack debuff when hit with Wind. Then there's Wind and Glass, with the Resonance status. A status made almost exclusively for this matchup in which when a Glass monster is hit by Wind it gains a Resonance counter, when 3 Resonance counters are stacked on the Glass monster it is instantly broken/fainted. So it still isn't a perfect system but the more reaction based system does spice it up a bit.)
Also while an Air Cassette Beast will take damage from the first Fire move its hit with, any future Fire moves will just spawn more walls technically making that Beast immune to Fire moves (if hit consistently)
@@astralguardian5930 i got a glass stardigrade recently that i likely wont use mutch due to its wind weakness because all that bulk means nothing against 3 turns against any wind type
Immunities are great and I use them all the time in my non-monster-collecting RPGs. "You can't hypnotize a tree, you can't Earthquake a flying creature, you can't kill undead or demons without holiness, you can't poison a robot"
Technically, you can poison a Robot depending on how you interpret it. Rust could be seen as a form of poison for machines (Though technically it's more of a cancer.) Then of course you have computer virus's, that infect/corrupt machines (Which is more in line due to being a sickness similar to how poisons act on the body. That said, typical poison's wouldn't work normally unless you justify it, rust could just be caused from water causing machines to seize up and/or slow their movement, and electricity can cause machines to glitch out, putting them in a corrupted/Virus state.
@@dragon1130I think at that point it stops being “poison” and starts being “corrosive” whether or not “corrosive” is lumped in with “poison” is up to you. that’s just how i would do poison damage on robots or mechanical enemies
I think it’s worth noting that Pokémon has more immunities than just what was mentioned. Fire/electric/poison types are immune to the related status effects, grass types are immune to powder moves, etc. Those immunities I think actually add more depth than the type-based ones.
And Ice can't be frozen and Insomniacs can't sleep and Soundproof is immune to sound based moves and Own Tempo being immune to confused and Oblivious being immune to gender based moves. Pokemon has so many funny and niche immunities.
@@SakhotGamerSpecs Sceptile and Scarf Blaziken would follow Banded Aerodactyl's role as a really powerful trio of Physical/Mixed/Special late game cleaners Each of the Hoenn starters would be S tier Gen3 OU threats which would be fun. I doubt many others would give up leftovers recovery but a specs Zapdos sounds scary
@@handoverthestromboli6715 i doubt scept and ken would really be the best users of those (DEFINITELY not S tier), they're just too weak. my first thoughts is maybe scarf would be pretty nutty on heracross, and specs on starmie and zapdos would go hard
@@handoverthestromboli6715 Scarf blaziquen sounds awful, even more affected by sand, and very prediction reliant (because the best part of blaziquen its being able to hit with both supereffective special and phisical attacks depending on the enemy). Also, BKC did 2 videos about this btw
@@disasterarea9341 Specs probably would need of dug support for dealing with blissey, but yeah. once it is removed it could be pretty powerful on those 2 or in moltres. And alakazam sounds interesting with trick.
2 thinhs 1) cassette beasts DOES actually have type effectiveness increase/decrease damage, just by a small margin (somewhare around 20-30% I forget) 2) cassette beasts does kind of have an immunity. If an air move is hit by a fire move, the air type gets a free wall. And, well, if an air wall is hit by a fire move, the wall gets MORE duration. So while you can hit an air type with 1 fire move, after that they are functionally inmune to fire for as long as the wall lasts Not trying to be rude I just absolutely love the game and wanted to clarify some things-
It also does have dual-typing via the fusion system, which I only call out because the discussion at 10:10 makes it sound like it doesn't have dual types at all
Ah yes. Challenging the Battle Hall in Pokemon Platinum, ended up in a one to one against a Shedinja with my Porygon Z. None of my attacks could hit it, the Shedinja had one move that worked but Porygon Z had recover. It was a battle of just wasting moves over and over again until finally Porygon Z started struggling and knocked it out. Easily the worst battle I've ever had in Pokemon.
Then there's me in the battle tower in Emerald as a kid, and me not knowing what Shedinja even IS. I cried because it was invincible to all of my attacks.
@@Deadflower019 nice, a new "worst generation of all time", i already saw generation 2, 6, 7, 8 and 9 being called "the worst of the series" what other generic critims you going to say? i bet you think 3d ruined pokemon forever.
For anyone who knows what Pokemon Brick Bronze is, the developers made their own monster catching game which does have immunities in it, Loomian Legacy, along with getting boosts from certain attacks, and saving your allies during double battles.
Plant is immune to Light Moves Light is immune to Spirit Moves Earth(Rock+Ground) is immune to Electric Moves Sponge is an ability that makes you immune to Water Moves Prismatic is an ability that makes you immune to Light Moves Woodsman is an ability that makes you immune to Plant Moves Lightning Rod is an ability that makes you immune to Electric Moves Reflective is an ability that makes you immune + bounce back Light Moves
"Immunites" have been around in games in one form or another. Even BEFORE games even existed; in Super Mario Bros. Spinies are immune to being stomped on, and Buzzy Beetles and Bullet Bills were immune to fire. Hell, there were enemies like Jelectrodes and Pudoboos that were invincible and had to be avoided. Even in Dungeons and Dragons there were enemies that needed Magic Weapons to hit them, Red Dragons were immune to fire, Golems could not be affected by spells. Ganon in most Zelda game require the Master Sword and sometimes you have to upgrade it to even do that. Even in non-game there were Werewolves you needed silver to hit or Helgasts from Lone wolf that needed the Summerswerd. and in the real world there are things immune to poisons and diseases. Immunities are a way to block progress and require the player to do certain content and bring the skills/resources requires as opposed to just chipping away mindlessly. Immunites can also be pierced (like the various Break spells in SMT games) and things that just straight up pierce immunites (such as X of the gods that YHWH uses). Immunities are not new.
If you are just stating immunities have been in the game for a long time, yes, it is a true statement. We're emphasizing the immunity system in the *linear system "beast-tamer" genre.* He stated in the beginning about the sub-game genre he was focusing on. Everything you've said is outside of that genre, like SMB is a platformer, Zelda is adventure and roguelike (depending which Zelda game), DND is an open real-RPG. It's like saying Goombas (and all enemies) are immune to walking straight into them, you have to jump on them or use a power up otherwise-but this is not so relevant to genre at hand, hence, obviously all are games but they are different genres. Games to note that are in this linear turn-based or beast-tamer game genre are EarthBound or Mother series, Undertale, and Dragon Quest.
@@stealthgamer4620 Miracle Eye, Foresight, and the Ability Mold Breaker exist. Also DoT effects like Sandstorm, Hail, Poison, can bypass an immunity because they aren't direct attacks (although those have immunites as well).
You do realized that he mentioned how immunities work in other non turn based things... You are reiterating some of the stuff he already said. But he was talking about specifically turn based battle series like Pokemon and how hard it makes types to balance. Also, Pokemon isn't new... so.... But the way immunities are implemented in Pokemon is unique and isn't being copied by other series...
@@shirrenthewanderer414 It basically has so much stuff (Pokemon, abilities, moves and items) for an RPS based game (Rock Paper Scissors), that it enables to allow all these different immunities. If there were a smaller selection of types, this immunity system would be a hard to implement…I talk all about this in my own comment thread in the comment section. That’s all I have to say for now.
Probably because Pokemon is the only game series where immunities add fun rather than frustration. If my overlevelled Charizard with sunny day and 3 fire moves is walled by a lv 15 Growlithe with flash fire, that's on me for not catching 'em all, and the solution is spending 5 minutes to catch a Pidgeotto. In something like D&D, if an enemy is immune to what I've build around and I've got no other options, I just lose.
@@sarahr.8854Agreed. Tried to Thunderbolt the Ditto and lost? Well, you should have used something else then, what kind of lunatic fights with 24 moves of the same type? But I still think that using choice items should turn any immunities into inefectives. What if your choice specs psychic type gets wrapped by an Alolan Rattata?
@@RangeCMYKYou switch out. Immuinities are a big part of the competitive scene, partially because of how important chip damage can be, so having a way to halt the opponent's win condition and being able to keep that pokemon healthy prevents powerhouses from rampaging all over. To give an example, before generation 6 the only type that resisted dragon type moves was the steel type, wich is also weak to ground, and almost every dragon type back then (with very few exceptions like Kingdra) had access to earthquake. If you didn't have pokemon like Skarmory or Bronzong, defending against those pokemon was almost impossible, and even then they still dominated online game. The addition of fairy types didn't even make dragons bad; you see the opponent has a fairy, you try to lure it out for the kill, and now your dragon can go back to the good old days of spamming outrage. It becomes a chess game where your opponent can't let you pick up that kill before handling your wincon first, but you neither can recklessly throw it out without disposing of its counter first, wich leads to a very interesting and fun strategic gameplan
If you add random critical hits, an option could be that a critical hit bypasses immunities and deals normal damage, that way you could still have a rechargable mana system.
And if you trigger one of them, your turn ends instantly and in some games the enemy gets a buff (this is actually the best implantation of affinity systems in a single player game)
To be fair SMT actually came b4 pokemon so pokemon could have gotten inspiration from that but as time went on thought maybe not. I mean to be honest feels like SMT going in a similar direction only to also back pedal hard alot too. I mean honestly if u wanna talk immunity look at the final magatama for SMT3 Nocturne. U just Null everything other than almighty and gun and gun didn't exist I'm that game. So unless u get hit by almighty ur safe and nothing can hurt you. Kinda busted, except u still can die to End game bosses since they spam almighty moves XD
@@darcash1738 8? I remember seeing 1 single final about the kid that had been stomping the competition the past years (I think that he was 12, the maximum accepted age iirc) VS a new 4, yes 4 year old girl. In these the kids DO play properly, like pro players but with likely less knowledge on some details but still on top on the meta and how battles work. The girl won, and she even guaranteed her victory with an awfully godlike prediction, she was kinda asked by the commentator about how she decided that move, she, the, again, 4 year old girl, explained precisely what happened without fear or thinking it twice, she expected a change his opponent could make and repeated a move to counter it (which crushed him and dropped his chances to 0). It was amazing seeing that play and hearing her explain how she chose that move that guaranteed her victory. More incredible was that she did with a Butterfree XD, didn´t even Gigamaxed it, it was a plain Butterfree, a Choice Scarf Sleep Powder one though.
Another interesting thing is that in Shin Megami Tensei, your creatures can acquire their type matchup interactions through level-up or fusion and, not only that, there are a lot of type interactions, from immunity to deflection and even absorption. Like Cassette Beasts, these interactions occupy the same slots that can be occupied by attacks or in-battle status moves
Well, demons in SMT also have inherent typings. It's not _always_ a passive skill. Another interesting thing is that demons can learn Pierce passive skills, allowing their attacks to affect enemies that Block and Absorb as if they were neutral, but Reflect still works fine. This video's topic is pretty interesting considering SMT builds its whole battle system around immunities much more than resistance, since they affect press turns.
@@Kevin_Anderson see what's actually interesting is that depending on the game Pierce will also ignore Reflect. I know that in Devil Survivor and vanilla SMT4 pierce cannot bypass reflect but in Apocalypse and SMT5 they will
MT such as SMT have a very Reaction-based system for Monsters without revolving around Inherent Types for Monsters with weird hidden exceptions like Persona 4, unlike Pokémon with Inherent Type with Monsters where the Reactions are based off the Inherent Type. Pikachu learning a Move to null one of their Electric Weaknesses or of a Neutral or Resistant reaction would be controversial, but MT has been doing that shit for years. Monster Collector's grandma is not great because she is old, but because she is fucking strange and I love that. Like what Pokémon inspired game has moves where your Monster gains a temporary reaction IE Null or Repel? MT and its inspired games do.
I only wished that in SMT 5 the AI would take into account your immunities instead of just using random attacks. Like, geez, you already tried using lightning magic on the MC 3 times already, it's not going to suddenly work the 4th time. And on top of that they LOSE an additional action, which makes most of the game really easy when you know how to abuse it.
@@MimicAraiun I mean that's like the entire point of the system. Late game bosses are "supposed* to have Almighty or pierce moves so it doesn't end up like that but sometimes the AI gets weird
@@kiwan1450 That's 8 years ago, so it's not that recent, specially for a videogame. Think about the fact that people were complaining about GTA V in 2018, and here we have an older game when compared to the time
I'm also working on a pokémon-like game (although I'm much earlier in the creative process than you, and I started because I saw your project, so thanks!) and I feel like immunities are a very fun mechanic overall. Having to play around not being able to do damage at all in certain circumstances can lead to very creative thinking in my opinion, so I'll be keeping them, although I'll have very few in types, and more in abilities.
In casual play, it boils down to whether or not you have an even remotely balanced team. You'd need to be actively trying to handicap yourself in order to soft-lock yourself as is described in this video. And even then, you couls just restart from your last save, or just lose the battle and restart form the PC. This is NOT soft-locking. For competitive, immunities are an invaluable tool to take advantage of and take into consideration. If you fail to learn and exploit such mechanics, maybe conpetitive just ain't for you.
@@a_rat_named_mouse I'm guessing they meant to say "forced loss" rather than "softlock", since the player always has the option to remove a Choice item after the battle if it's causing them trouble. They do address that Choice items are valued in competitive play, so I think the point was more for demonstrative purposes rather than to say it was some sort of major issue.
@@Antifrost Define "forced loss". Is it a "forced loss" if I am playing Rock-Paper-Scissors and continue to lose because I refuse to use anythijg other than Rock? Is it a "forced loss" if I repeatedly try to use blitzkrieg tactics on a map with wide, open areas and lots of snipers? Is it a "forced loss" if I play as the slowest car and refuse to use pick-up items and don't win? Even if it is a "forced loss", is it "wrong"? If I make bad plays, or outright stupid decisions, should it not be harder to win? Should I be surprised that the same tactic isn't working over and over again, or should I have expected it? I do not like this line of thinking in the slightest, as it almost implies any form of playing the game should always be enough to get the same results as any of method. In reality, you are rewarded for being smart and good, and you are punished for being dumb and bad. And I feel that is how it should be.
@@a_rat_named_mouse I don't think those examples are quite as comparable, but even so I think you're taking something from this video that wasn't stated (or at least not intentionally). I'm not the one who made it so granted I'm assuming as well, but I'm fairly certain they're presenting that situation as a thing that could happen with the mechanics at play. While they're somewhat pejorative about it, if they were so against immunities, they wouldn't have included the section talking about their benefits to gameplay or be including the mechanic in their own game.
at some point i had the inspiration to design my own creature collector game and immunities just felt natural to include. i think the "softlock" presented by immunities is more on the player for not having significant enough coverage (choice items aside), at least in pokemon.
one hugely important thing with immunities in a pvp setting is if a move affects the field state AND can be blocked by an immunity, that can be a pretty interesting interaction. the most significant example in pokemon is spinblocking - blocking rapid spin with ghost types to prevent entry hazards such as spikes from being cleared. as a competitive pokemon player i find the dynamic created around entry hazards + spinblocking one of the most interesting things to play around with.
I feel like the inclusion of them is a healthy counterbalance against brute force, and more often than not, a player getting themselves into a losing situation with them is more a fault on the player than the game. like if someone plays Mario but never uses the jump button, it's not the game's fault if they run over into a pit, the tools and knowledge were made available, the player just walked themselves into a bad situation.
Repeling damage is pretty common mechanic in Megami Tensei games not just Persona and Draining or absorbing elemental damage is also pretty common in at least Final Fantasy titles. Also adding Steel and Dark was also intended as a nerf to Normal Types by making Fighting types stronger. Normal Types were low key stronger than non legendary Psychics in Gen1 after Baring Mew and Mewtwo, who are banned, Tauros, Chansey and Snorlax are considered mandatory for your team to be considered good. Only Choice Band existed in Generation 3, Choice Scarf and Specs were introduced in Diamond and Pearl. Also Pokemon Inheirts it's concept of Power Points from The early SaGa/Final Fantasy Legend titles on the Gameboy. SaGa/FFL didn't use MP but had Uses with Items breaking once they ran out and Abilities being rechared at an Inn or items IIRC.
8:52 "Even the most punishing FromSoft boss could let you deal _some_ damage." Yhorm the Giant's 100% fire absorption says hi. ...or it would, if he didn't just hand you his weakness in the Storm Ruler...
I was coming here to say this. There are more than a few FromSoft bosses that are immune to Fire or Poison. Just check the challenger runner community.
@@umwha I say because… imagine a pokemon with motor drive with water terra type. Or a water absorb Pokémon with terra rock Those would be pretty cool strategies to work around Specially if you take in consider the types your Pokémon has before and after the terra Like… a ghost gym leader could have a terra fairy type to cover the dark weakness. Or a fire user using a grass type with terra fire to cover ALL it’s weaknesses
@@arielalejandrodelfabro1740 This is done sometimes, but Tera is such a valuable tool and its rarely worth it. if your using a tera type for support and not offense, most the time the pokemon is just using tera types: Ghost (for fake out immunity), Water, Steel, or Poison
What if ATP is a resource you can choose to regen in battle? Make it so that players have some sort of sub-action for items that, when not being used for buffing/healing items, it can be used to regenerate ATP, or can be ignored. Call it a 'Tamer/Trainer Action"
And abilities or attacks that let you ignore immunities. Scrappy lets you hit ghosts with any attack. Smackdown removes the Flying type from an opponent. Roost removes the Flying type from yourself.
The issue is most of these abilities just arent good. like the only Okay pokemon that have any ability like this, are Teal Mask ogerpon which never gets value from its mold breaker and is honestly just a tera sink for the speed it gets from embody aspect (teal) and UrsalunaBM with minds eye which it does get value from, but it really doesn't *need* it and would honestly be more balanced without it.
@@Hyper_Drud Issue is that thousand Arrows is a signature move on an UBER pokemon that's almost never in any games so its not in Smogon or VGC, and Smack down is just really bad.
As a competitive pokemon-er, I can confirm Shedinja has infinite counters. Entry hazards Will O' Wisp Toxic Any confusing move Mold breaker Neutralizing Gas. Type changing moves Moves that ignore abilities.
In my opinion, you shouldn't use an energy based system for moves. My main problem is that such systems only really favor bulky creatures. Example: Imagine your Blaziken uses Close Combat and I switch in Toxapex, in a game with PP this means very little as you can still use 7 more no problem, and you most likely won't even need them all. But, in game with energy, Blaziken has just been set back by quite a bit. Now it can use very few of all its moves and the option of recharging its energy through a move/item is too risky, as losing a turn doing nothing while being so frail could very much mean its end, but the same problem doesn't apply to Toxapex, as its bulk allows it to take multiple hits with no problem while still being able to do progress to your team with status or other similar effects. Also another problem, though this one is more of my opinion, it can downgrade the difficulty in some in game areas. For example, in Pokemon there are a few "gaunlet" areas where you have to fight trainers back to back, thus making your PP a very important resource that you must manage. This in turn makes it feel like your moves are more important and playing well is more rewarding, while making things like immunities and misses less frustating for the player, which in an energy system would send the player back even further.
A good example of MP leading to longer battles is Final Fantasy 1 on the NES and Playstation and the Pixel Remaster kinda vs Final Fantasy I on the GBA, PSP, IOS, Android and 3DS. In older versions of Final Fantasy I with Spell slots you couldn't spam your highest level spells you'd run out and have to rely on lower levels spell and while there are great spells like Haste and Temper for Black Magic and Protect for White Magic. White Mages couldn't always rely on casting Healga to restore your party's HP against AOE attacks, reducing the Physical Damage the party takes with Protera or constantly reviving teamates with Life or Full-Life. Black mages couldn't rely on pasting every random encounter with their strongest Spells. There were equipment that when used casted mostly mid level spells to help out however. The GBA and all version up until the Pixel Remaster swapped the Spell Slot system for MP in addition to adding items like Ethers(MP Restorative), Elixirs(HP and MP Restoritive), High Potions(Stronger HP Restorative) and Pheonix Downs(Revival) and some stronger spellcasting equipment. This makes dugeons in general vastly easier but in return bossed had their HP cranked way up. The Final Boss in the NES version only had 2000 HP(4000 HP on Playstation) and it isn't that hard for a party to paste in a few turns baring a poor run in the final dungeon. The final boss on the all version after wards has 20000 HP with only intended postgame dungeon Bosses having Higher stats. It can drag on long enough that the final boss can actually potentially reach Curaja on its spell list for a full heal something that was unlikely to happen if you were playing normally on earlier versions. It also leads to bit of Mismatch in intended capabilities on the Pixel Remaster version as that one keeps the higher stats on bosses but brings back spell slots.
Like, oh no it would be bad for nuke monsters. That's not inherently bad. Nuke monsters having a limit to how often they can nuke you in a row is a balancing factor, actually
It would be funny for my Stema to be out of energy and short of breath during a hectic fight, and the pain from the lactic acids being produced kills it
If you wanted to make your system more unique compared to other games in the genre, you could have it so that you need to feed your monsters specific made foods in order for them to have the energy to use a move type. For example, if you wanted to use your muscle type moves, your mon would have to be fed a glucose energy type which gives it the strength to do the action. And once it runs out of that type of energy it no longer do the moves. As for prevention of soft locks, you could have it so that once the Mon loses all it's energy it dies, regardless of how much HP it has. Since cells need energy to work, no energy means no power which means death. Which also allows you to be more diverse with your options so that you don't just pump everything into a single monster and bulldoze everything. Now you'd have to balance the power of moves with the energy you have left for that mons actions. And heck you could have the hp resource be a thing for cells which eat or destroy other cells for energy, like white blood cells. That way you can add new strats and mechanics to further flesh out battles
I like the drawings in your video. They're cute. :) and I agree. Immunities add more strategy to the game. As annoying as Electric type immunity to Ground types is, it makes sense. Even when dealing with electrical circuits, the ground exists to make sure you don't get shocked. #TheMoreYouKnow
I feel like the perfect game to clone Pokemon is actually a roblox game called Loomian Legacy. Having Identical types, identical abilities, but having a mana pool that ALSO has a struggle feature. You CAN regenerate EP as they call it, but it uses a move, and only regens a set amount. Rest and Wait make it so you can sit out moves too. It has the same idea as "I have enough EP to beat him with my moves" but also gives the "Okay, I don't have enough EP, if I rest now, I'm done for". And of you don't have enough EP, you'll also struggle, but instead of 100% chance to damage, LL's struggle is chance. Meaning struggle isn't fool proof, and it has 100% chance to recoil. It also gives items that gives EP during the match, but it's usually (Like with the Kabunga Coffee) every 2 - 3 moves.
In Honkai: Star Rail there is no direct immunity against attack types only resistances but enemies can be immune to a specific debuff. In HSR every type has a debuff that this type can apply like Fire = Burning; Physical = Bleeding and Ice = Frozen and so on, so fire enemies can be immune against burning and ice enemies immune against frozen.
Good analysis. SMT has entered the chat. Also when at first you were like "this mechanic from gen 1 is scary" I was like which one lol. Good luck on the game and I'll stay tuned on it!
Omg your idea for tp is SO COOL it works so well it gets rid of the issue of boringly being no longer able to use moves and makes it way more exicting I can just imagine bein at low hp and havin to decide if I should risk using a move or switching out!
5:50 Its funny that Fairy was made to counter the 'overpowered' Dragon type--which hot take really wasn't that overpowered, given that it was super effective against itself, or had a secondary typing that wasn't weakened by dragon's four resistances, especially dragon types that were also ground, grass, or flying, meaning that in competative play you still had pretty good ways to counter them; and in casual play dragon types were almost always end-game pokemon--by being an _actually_ overpowered type with two weaknesses, with the poison weakness being negated by the fact a good third of the fairy type roster are also either dual psychic or steel typing; which resist and are immune to poison respectively. And by funny I mean its absolutely infuriating.
Dragons were only weak to two types. Ice and Dragon. They were only strong against one type. Dragon. And in Gen 1, there was just one Dragon type move. Dragon Rage, which always dealt 40 damage, regardless of resistances. So really, Dragons were weak only to Ice, and strong against nothing in Gen 1. Dragon type was resistant to Starter Types and Electric. So dragon was really a defensive type, before Steel was introduced to replace it. With Fairy, I don't get it. I think Fairy should be not very effective against Dragons, and ineffective against steel. But dragon should be not very effective against fairy. Incompatible magic.
Pokémon could buff ice and psychic resist fairy maybe, it was useful to have the type of fairy added so certain pokémon like spiritomb got a weakness. Also clefairy was finally a fairy.
There’s this action monster tamer called Kindred Fates, and the way they do it is instead of doing elemental bonuses, the types attacks have playstyle advantages, for example: Fire: zoner/range Water: combo/flow Plant: token/minion The range and aoe could take care of the minions more easily, the combo and flow style makes it harder for the fire zoner, and the minions could become too much for the water user to just combo
I'm pretty sure a soft-lock is being unable to progress in a game. You cannot 'soft-lock' against a friend or in a pvp battle as it does not lock you out of progressing in the game.
@felipecastanha9161 A soft-lock can lead to a hard-lock. If you save the game while in a situation in which you can not make progress in a game, the soft-lock becomes a hard-lock. A soft-lock is being unable to make any progress in a game, and a hard-lock is saving the game while it's soft-locked.
Neither of these can ever be a hard lock. A hard lock is a state where the game is unable to receive any inputs whatsoever, almost always because the game has crashed or froze. Hence why it's a "hard" lock: you can't use any inputs to even begin to attempt to get out of the situation. Technically, even if you are stuck in an area where your character can't move at all, with something blocking the left, right, top, and bottom tiles, if your character can turn, if you can open your Bag, if you can save your game, then you can still do *something*. Soft locks allow you to make inputs, just that you are completely unable to progress
if creature collector games are afraid of immunities then megami tensei must be nightmarish considering that some demons can reflect or even heal from certain types of damage
Silly little idea (Mainly because idk if this is how it works)- if you add mitochondria they could make atp for other creatures in your party to let you stall for a bit longer.
I still remember in SMTV there was an Abscess fight against a boss that only had Physical moves. I put a phys immunity on Nahobino, went in with no demons, and just turned on auto-battle for an hour while my controller charged. Can’t wait for the re-release.
I'm in love with how you combine a video essay about monster collector tropes with science and some of your own design. It feels like you have such an inquisitive mind and passion for the topic! You maybe just need a couple people with dev experience to take some of the practical load off while you can remain focused on the creative part. Anyway, keep it up!
If you've ever played Epic Battle Fantasy 5, that game has an element system where each attack has an element and each character has weaknesses or resistances to said elements. If your resistance is high enough, you can even heal based on how much damage you'd usually take
While yes, some abilities allow for the Pokémon to be immune, for example levitate, there are also some abilities that negate immunities, such as scrappy.
I have another idea there can be a special move that can be used by everyone called final solution or something else which is basically struggle but it can only be if you have depleted your mana and not damage the enemy
Random computer science based ideas: O-notation family. Something like O(log n), O(n), O(n^2) in which O(log n) decreases defence but increases speed, O(n) stames the same, O(n^2) increases defence but decreases speed. Or to be closer to the concept make O(n) move/ability give itslef stat boosts, O(n^2) give itself a stacking effect that gives stat boost every few turns, O(2^n) give itself a stacking effect that gives stat boost and doubles itself every few turns. Maybe add something to show that low asymptote means faster on very big inputs, not necessary on small inputs. Recursion mon. Something crazy like recursive substitutes? Maybe each substitute has less hp or after spawning enough you reach recursion depth limit, lose all substitutes and do some damage to the opponent. Alternatively, make mutual recursion mon that becomes stronger when you switch it with another mon a lot. Compilatiin phases family. Lexer - parser - optimizer - code generator? It is probably too much and one should be removed. They can have different types like electricity/geo (lexer does ground work) - electricity/grass (parser builds parse tree) - electricity/fairy (optimizers are a bit magic))) - electricity/steel (because code generation is close to hardware). Their abilities/moves are probably focused on something like lowering enemy defence for frontend, buffing its attack/speed for optimizer and dealing damage for code generator.
A suggestion: ATP should probably act more like Hearthstone's mana system, except instead of the increase over time, you can shift the available amount with abilities, items, and moves that replicate or reference the effects of other bio-chemical energy systems, since almost all of them funnel down to and up from ATP.
It was, You explained abilities really well. but that front facing shedinja picture, thats probably my favourite pokemon you've redrawn, he looks SO cute.
Cicadas are cute in my opinion in real life too. Tho there is only one species very rare in my land so I have never seen these animals in wild. Shedinja and ninjask are very cute pokémon in my opinion, I wish Game freak would buff their stats a bit. And I do not mean the hp stat for shedinja obviously. They could make nincada evolve later level because cicadas metamorphosis happens after a long time. But maybe I'm hoping too much.
13:19 - Temtem has 2 traits like this: Water Synthesizer and Electric Synthesize. They make the holder immune to the type and restore HP equal to the amount of damage they would have taken. 16:07 - Temtem has something similar to this. Temtem can use their HP to perform techniques if they don't have enough STA (Stamina) to do it, 2-5 HP per STA point missing depending on the Tem's level. However, the Temtem becomes overexerted for the next turn meaning they can't use any technique until the turn after being overexerted. Some traits utilize this overexertion mechanic too.
It would have been very fun if the zodiac beasts were based on now-discredited science concepts, like string theory, phlogiston, aether, geocentrism, etc
@burner555 it was never a genuine theory to begin with, and only in recent decades has the guys championing it admitted that. It hasn't been replaced, because it was never the accepted model. This video is a reasonable explanation of all the things that happen around it. th-cam.com/video/kya_LXa_y1E/w-d-xo.htmlsi=gW_W9XSfF-eGd_ar
5:45 Dark was definitely designed to tackle Psychic, as in gen 1 the Psychic type was super powerful. The Special split into Special Attack and Special Defence was another method to nerf Psychic types.
People talk about how good Psychic was and dark being made to put it down. But Steel further diminishing the effectiveness of the TRUE king of Gen 1 (normal) is just as important. And the true blow to the viability of psychic came 13 years after dark. (Which didn't really hit it's stride until Unova anyways) And it's Fairy being outright better at most of the same jobs.
12:50 *Technically* Levitate isn't an Immunity ability in the same way, say Water Absorb or Flash Fire are; *Technically* it applies the Raised condition, & said condition makes you immune to Ground type moves, Terrain effects, & non-typed hazards (The same is true of Flying's Ground immunity; See the interaction with Gravity)
More interestingly, the "Raised" condition isn't simply removed. Gravity (and Smack Down/Thousand Arrows) inflicts the "Grounded" status. This status specifically removes the immunities of Levitate and the Flying-type. This is noteworthy as "Grounded" does not remove Shedinja's immunity to Ground, nor does it disable Orthworm's "Earth Eater" ability (which causes it to heal whenbhit by Ground moves).
One game I highly recommend for your research these sorts of games is Loomian legacy. They use energy that you can rest to regain, and have many immunities just like pokemon. Personally the early game isnt all that great, but you can tell that the quality does increase after the 2nd or 3rd gym. (The game is still incomplete at the moment)
4:55 Reminds me of a Magical Camp area. 15:00 To be fair, it is possible to replenish power points, especially with Recycle. Also worth mentioning that Struggle bypasses almost everything.
I'm not a Pokémon enthusiast, but definitely very interested in game design. I'm a fan of type-systems and their interactions. This was interesting and well presented, like the distinction between action resources.
Somewhat alright competitive player here. Immunities are genuinely good things as they give counterplay and risk to certain things. What is stopping a Dragapult from just running Choice Band and Spamming Dragon Darts? Oh right, Any fairy type. Whats stopping a Choice band sand rush excadrill from spamming EQ through an entire team, oh yeah, a skarmory or pelipper. Forcing opponents into unwinnable situations is the whole reason shedinja is viable and is a genuine strategy used and switching is a fundamental part of pokemon, Pokemon is such a good competitive game because it requires you to think and resistances play into this super super well. You need to switch, you need to sac, you need to do things to play around resistances, immunities, anything. Not to mention almost every mon will usually run coverage which is already needed to win most the time. Immunities are genuinely insanely good aspects for thinking in pokemon and a big part in why Ghost and Ground types are actually really good types. If ghost only resisted Fighting and Normal, it would not be nearly as good of a defensive type. and Tera Ghost would drop off a cliff. Especially in VGC, since fake out is a normal type move, ghost types are Ghost Terastalization are really really good for mons that use focus sash for example. Immunities and things like this allow weaker or Frail mons to be more viable. Thats my piece, good video though.
cool analysis bro hope your game comes awesome. You remember me how I wanted to make a pokemon like game in school too lolz. Also that origin for your mon at the end was so nerd haha love it
On the subject of ATP, you can always make it so the ATP recharges every 2 or 3 turns, thus staying true to how it works IRL. Also, maybe add things like altered stats that lowers the ATP every turn or stops it from recharging? Or adding a way to spend ATP faster like if you use a method like PLA where a "Charged" attack spends more ATP to do more damage or another benefit (This could also make a "Gonna spend my ATP so i can start using my HP to attack" strategy in case of inmunity softlock, or just a teambuild focused on self-HP loss) I just thought about that while watching. I truly began to appreciate this mechanic while playing hardmode romhacks like Pokemon Radical Red. Switching safely is one of the key aspects in winning a lot of these fights.
Forgot to say this when the vid came out, but I remember early on I only taught my pokemon stab moves, which meant that whenever I went surfing in pokemon black, my level 100 samurott was *incapable* of harming any level 5+ frillish I encountered if they had water absorb
Would not NAD be a better Name for the PP then ATP? ATP is the universal Energy of eukaryot Cells, but Eukaryots also use GTP, CTP and UTP in a lot of processes for Energy. CTP and UTP are used when you need to activate specific Molecules like Glucose for other reactions, while GTP and ATP are used to save Energy gained from reactions. NAD (and FAD to a lesser extend) is pretty much the same, just older. Prokaryots use it for Energy. Even in Eukaryots NAD is still used for Energy. The F1/F0-ATPase in the Mitochondria uses mechanical rotation, startet from NADH and FADH2. NADH produces 2 ATP and FADH2 produces 1,5 ATP. The Szent-György-Krebs-Cicle in the Mitochondria produces 3x NADH, 1x FADH2 and 1x GTP, while the Step befor, the Glycolysis, produces 2 NADH and 2 ATP
There are interesting counterbalances to immunities as they're presented in Pokemon. For example, Fairy may be immune to Dragon, but Dragon moves are somewhat uncommon (in comparison to the number of moves other types have), so it's not likely that a player would find themselves up against a Fairy opponent with a full set of four Dragon moves. While Normal moves don't affect Ghosts, Normal-type Pokemon often can be taught moves of a variety of types, giving them the ability to deal with multiple type combinations. Choice items can certainly lock you into an unwinnable situation (which happened to me in a casual tournament I played in with my friends when my opponent's Gardevoir Traced my Flareon's Flash Fire and I was forced into using Flare Blitz), but those items are usually only available post-game or late-game. By the time a player reaches them, they're more likely to have enough of a familiarity with type machups to know the risks and benefits of equipping them. It's also rewarding when you learn how to use immunities to your advantage. I can't remember if I was playing Pearl or Platinum, but I caught a Drifloon who has three type immunities - Normal, Fighting, and Ground. It's balanced by having low defensive stats (despite a large HP stat) and a whole host of other type weaknesses, but it managed to do something that I had never seen up to that point - it forced a Gym Leader to retreat their Pokemon. Specifically, Maylene's Lucario didn't have a move that could damage it, so she switched out. That let me know that once I got her down to only Lucario, I practically had a guaranteed win. I brought that Drifblim with me everywhere after that battle. I think the spinoff games handle immunities in the way they do because you're usually battling with a limited team. I don't know about Pokemon Go, but in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon or Pokemon Masters, you only have 2 to 4 Pokemon with you at any time. It'd be a lot easier to find yourself in a situation where you couldn't swap out to another Pokemon with an effective move, so having immunities function as a stronger version of resistances is a fair tradeoff in my opinion. Pokemon Masters actually only has weaknesses and no resistances or immunities (at least since the last time I played), but the concept still applies. In a game like Pokken Tournament where battles are 1v1 (with supports, and yes there is a 3v3 mode but it's still one Pokemon at a time), type matchups of any sort could drastically alter the balance of the game, and immunities could make some matchups unwinnable. The context of the game is important in deciding whether or not the mechanic is appropriate.
the cassette beasts interactions conceptually makes sense with a stem focused game. in the real world, whenever you put in energy, that energy needs to go somewhere, it never just does nothing, what it does might be unnoticeable, but it still does something
I wanted to add that temtem has a few more immunities in the form of restoring hp when hit with certain types. There's three different traits that do this for water, electric, and toxic types techniques.
This is interesting because I'm working out a creature collector game in my head and an idea I had for my version of the ghost type is that they should be immune to all physical attacks dealt by non-ghosts. At least if their first type is Ghost.
An example of such a system that I can remember is in a roblox game called "Loomain Legacy", it still has immunities but it also has an energy system. The interesting thing is that this energy is still always renewable with "wait" and "rest", which are two options that you ALWAYS have regardless of build as they don't count as a equip able move. However if you lack the energy to use a move the game will ask you if you want to use it still and you accept, the loomain will essentially use struggle (although it is not named in-game)! This allows for an anti-softlock that actually can be accessed way faster than exhausting PP.
I made a simple Damage Type table for a game project that I have been working on for years. Physical, Magical, Weapons, Lightning, Water, Fire, Ice, Light, and Dark. While Physical, Magical, and Weapon are not really Damage Types, they are still important. As some Creatures are resistant, weak, or immune to them. Weapons is being used as an umbrella for a large list of Weapon Types that the Player can get. Light and Dark are treated like a force that affects the Soul of creatures, thus, Robots are naturally immune. Lightning, Water, Fire, and Ice are what can be called, The Elements. Lightning beats Water, Water beats Fire, and Fire and Ice cancels each other. I know that Lightning is powerful but I do plan on expanding this table to have more Elements, but it makes a good starting point.
I just found your channel, stema looks so fucking cool! Im totally excited to try it when you get it going. As a indie dev whos done a couple of jams and am going to be going to Full Sail next month, I love unique concepts like the STEM based stuff. Truly educational to the young ones and really fucking cool as a concept to us hoity toity who haven't seen someone well read write something since futurama.
I feel like the most important thing to talk about with immunities, at least in creature catcher games, is that they're usually made to balance incredibly powerful moves. For example Flying is immune to Ground of course. Why? Because of Earthquake, an incredibly strong, 100% accurate move that (disregarding flying itself) is a great offensive tool against many of Pokemon's strongest types like Electric and the ever-present in comp Steel. A simple resistance would do this job fine enough, but if the Earthquake is strong enough, the user might be able to muscle past the resistance entirely and making the move broken. Immunities are also designed around negating secondary effects as well. For example compare the moves U-turn, Volt Switch and Flip Turn: All of these moves deal damage and then swap the user out to gain or maintain offensive momentum with the only difference being their types. These differences however are massive as anyone who plays Singles will tell you that U-turn is amazing, almost to the point of being broken. This is because volt switch gets blanked by ground types and flip turn gets blanked by mons with water immune abilities which stop their switching effects from going off. U-turn by contrast isn't immune to anything thereby making it the better of the 3 despite Bug being a worse offensive type in a vacuum. You can argue that these interactions weren't made intentionally or not but the point is they exist and they're everywhere if you know where to look. When designing a creature catcher game, it might be a good idea to ask yourself if a great move warrants an immunity or 2 to create a more skill based environment.
Remembers hacked sturdy shedninja….. ptsd returns. Edit: for the zodiac beasts you could do a post game chapter. A smaller game chapter after the main on like most polemon games do these days.
The Choice Band was the only choice item in Gen III, and worked on Physical and Special attacks in that generation. The Specs/Scarf didn't arrive until Gen IV.
I never even thought about this topic until seeing this video. Yeah, it is pretty crazy just how game breakingly powerful Immunities are and why they actually do have a justified reason for existence as well as how they have actually been avoided in EVERY SINGLE OTHER FRANCHISE and even Pokémon themselves has never used it outside of a main series game and for good reason sense it is the most multiplayer and battle orianted system they have. But taking Power Points into account to as part of the reason they exist the way they are? I never even considered that factor for just how majorly important it is. You're videos regarding Pokémon and this new series of yours which I hope comes to fruition as the entry in the Monster Catching RPG Genre that finally breaks the mold and becomes it's own thing to offer some equally enticing as Pokémon for different tastes. I wish you nothing but the best of luck that every single idea you have comes true and this video game becomes more and more vastly complex and innovative and unique and creative. You just might be one of my favorite new content creators and the first of a kind I have not seen in a quite a while since Lockstin/Gnoggin or Emperor Kumquat the very first TH-camr I ever subscribed to (who I will not mention by name for respect to his privacy and current struggles and disappearance) who I have seen this level of sheer unbridled passion and ability to take apart and analyze and reconstruct a topic from the inside out. And as such one of the very few TH-camrs who I have not immediately subscribed to or felt an obligation to do so with for the sake of this platform's bad algorithm or sense of loyalty to because I have genuinely become invested in the content you've created and as such gained a true appreciation and curiosity and urge to understand understand and learn from. Which is a typical TLDR way of me saying that I am happy to now officially subscribe to your channel. If you ever find yourself in need of a reason to keep pursuing your goals of creating this new videogame and if it is ever even worth the stress and struggle or if you ever find yourself losing the drive to do so, just know that I believe in you and will support whatever decision you make with whatever ambitions you choose to pursue so long as you don't stop because I know you're onto something. Something potentially big and grand. And I know that I am not the only one who believes this in you and the work you do in your craft. So here's to a new journey. 🌠
I had a similar issue with RPG combat mechanics where the Defense stat reduces damage subtractively, meaning that if the target's Defense was higher than the base damage that their attacker could do, they couldn't do any damage at all, or deal a minimum of 1 damage every hit. A lot of RPGs will use a "Metal Slime" type enemy whose Defense is so high that you can only ever deal 1 damage to it at a time, so you have to attack it the same amount of times as its max HP if you don't have a way around its defenses. If you want a way around this, I suggest an alternative damage formula like the following: Damage = Attack^2 / (Attack + Defense) This way Defense has no upper limit, but will rather have diminishing returns based on how much higher it is, relative to the attacker's strength.
Pokémon has some really weird interesting interactions with types Like how Grass type is immune to spore or powder moves Or if you use a fire type move, it ends the freeze status, same with hitting a frozen pokemon with a fire move (or a move associated with “hot” like scald)
your lesson on immunities being a good thing is EXACTLY why i use Nidoking against Koga in Heart Gold, its kinda nice being able to leave the battle and none of my other Pokemon are poisoned
If I remember right, casset beasts does have somewhere of a immunity move that applies a ghostly status to the user for a couple turns, during which they can’t be hit at all by damaging moves, but status moves will effect them. After the ghostly status runs out, whoever had the ghostly effect immediately has their hp brought to 0.
I like Fossil Fighters' idea for PP/MP. In that game, you gain FP on your turn, and FP is a shared resource between all your creatures. If a creature dies, its controller gains a bunch of FP back. I think it's nice to keep combat flowing and make it fun.
admittedly in pokemon mystery dungeon [mostly familiar with Rescue Team and Explorers] there's another option for how to avoid soft-locking with immunities: having an attack that falls outside the usual system. there's a non-move based attack that the player can use that doesn't interact with the type-chart and thus can't run into any immunities, plus it doesn't run on PP and thus wouldn't run on Mana Pools either. the reason it's not over powered is because it's pitiful... more so in the more recent games... but still, imagine an attack that can be used any time without fail [aside from accuracy checks] but does like 1-5 points of damage compared to an actual attack where there might be immunities or a resource cost involved with the higher damage output
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I just wanted to quickly thank all the comments kindly correcting me on the nuances of the mentioned indie games.
These were my honest understandings of their respective mechanics when I was coding in my ATP system a few weeks ago; however it turns out there are a few more cases of immunities offered by a few of Coromon's Enhanced Traits and Temtem's 2 Synthesizing traits.
Additionally, while not related to immunities, I was made aware that Cassette Beasts do have a damage multiplier in their type matchups and Pokemon's choice specs and scarf were Gen IV additions.
While immunities are still rare in these other games as no general type matchup does 0x the damage, I do want to avoid spreading erroneous details in the future.
I'll continue to work on my game, and I'll make it clearer that my videos are reflecting my thought process behind the decisions I made for my game.
Also, mixing up the titles in the beginning is straight up my mistake; do NOT edit videos at 3AM...
Thank you again to everyone for being interested in my works!
For the most part you did fine good video 👌
You probably want to pin this comment since I only saw it from scrolling comments. Thanks for being a good person and actively fighting misinforming your viewers!
Good luck with your game
Hey, what is that music when it play on 15:21, good luck on your game n0Rtist, okay
@@fakename3010 on 15:21, the music is play, what's called, answer me
Correction on cassette beasts: effective moves deal 1.25x damage and ineffective moves deal 0.75x, but the buffs/debuffs are much more impactful than the damage modifiers so it’s easy to overlook
It feels like nothing, I had no idea about it and finished the game.
Honestly, types here need more resistances, it's so easy to trample the whole game with a single boosted Beast glass cannon
I think that's the thing that does make Cassette Beasts more interesting, you mention the damage boost is still there but hearing you say it's just x1.25 and x0.75 just proves more the interesting thing of Cassette Beast matchups more so being like "reactions" of types and interactions. Raw damage isn't always the name of the game, the interactions of buffs/debuffs is what tends to more so determine the fight.
(Though I must admit 2 majorly off matchup in Cassette Beasts though, both involving Wind. Fire almost becomes helpless against Wind attribute, since on attack it generates a Wind Wall because of Updraft and on defense Fire gets an attack debuff when hit with Wind. Then there's Wind and Glass, with the Resonance status. A status made almost exclusively for this matchup in which when a Glass monster is hit by Wind it gains a Resonance counter, when 3 Resonance counters are stacked on the Glass monster it is instantly broken/fainted. So it still isn't a perfect system but the more reaction based system does spice it up a bit.)
For a second I thought you were talking about pokemon and so I googled it and pokemon go has the same super effective modifiers
Also while an Air Cassette Beast will take damage from the first Fire move its hit with, any future Fire moves will just spawn more walls technically making that Beast immune to Fire moves (if hit consistently)
@@astralguardian5930 i got a glass stardigrade recently that i likely wont use mutch due to its wind weakness because all that bulk means nothing against 3 turns against any wind type
Immunities are great and I use them all the time in my non-monster-collecting RPGs. "You can't hypnotize a tree, you can't Earthquake a flying creature, you can't kill undead or demons without holiness, you can't poison a robot"
Name of game?
What game?
There's multiple types of immunities in smt
Void- take no damage from an attack
Repel: send that attack right back
Drain: heal HP off the attack
Technically, you can poison a Robot depending on how you interpret it.
Rust could be seen as a form of poison for machines (Though technically it's more of a cancer.) Then of course you have computer virus's, that infect/corrupt machines (Which is more in line due to being a sickness similar to how poisons act on the body.
That said, typical poison's wouldn't work normally unless you justify it, rust could just be caused from water causing machines to seize up and/or slow their movement, and electricity can cause machines to glitch out, putting them in a corrupted/Virus state.
@@dragon1130I think at that point it stops being “poison” and starts being “corrosive” whether or not “corrosive” is lumped in with “poison” is up to you. that’s just how i would do poison damage on robots or mechanical enemies
I like how nortist can make an interesting video about his Pokémon project and still manage to teach us about science
He’s the best teacher in existence
pigeon spotted
Matpat moment
And game design
I think it’s worth noting that Pokémon has more immunities than just what was mentioned. Fire/electric/poison types are immune to the related status effects, grass types are immune to powder moves, etc. Those immunities I think actually add more depth than the type-based ones.
NGL I constantly forget about the Type-based status immunities aside from "Poison-can't-be-poisoned" since I've almost never encountered them. 😅
@@Cas-Se78.97 I always forget dark types ignore prankster that's a crazy one
And Ice can't be frozen and Insomniacs can't sleep and Soundproof is immune to sound based moves and Own Tempo being immune to confused and Oblivious being immune to gender based moves. Pokemon has so many funny and niche immunities.
Temtem has status immunities as well, like Mental-types being immune to sleep.
6:31 Choice *band* was added in gen 3, but choice scarf and specs were added in gen 4.
Imagine gen 3 with specs and scarf lol
@@SakhotGamerSpecs Sceptile and Scarf Blaziken would follow Banded Aerodactyl's role as a really powerful trio of Physical/Mixed/Special late game cleaners
Each of the Hoenn starters would be S tier Gen3 OU threats which would be fun. I doubt many others would give up leftovers recovery but a specs Zapdos sounds scary
@@handoverthestromboli6715 i doubt scept and ken would really be the best users of those (DEFINITELY not S tier), they're just too weak. my first thoughts is maybe scarf would be pretty nutty on heracross, and specs on starmie and zapdos would go hard
@@handoverthestromboli6715 Scarf blaziquen sounds awful, even more affected by sand, and very prediction reliant (because the best part of blaziquen its being able to hit with both supereffective special and phisical attacks depending on the enemy). Also, BKC did 2 videos about this btw
@@disasterarea9341 Specs probably would need of dug support for dealing with blissey, but yeah. once it is removed it could be pretty powerful on those 2 or in moltres. And alakazam sounds interesting with trick.
2 thinhs
1) cassette beasts DOES actually have type effectiveness increase/decrease damage, just by a small margin (somewhare around 20-30% I forget)
2) cassette beasts does kind of have an immunity. If an air move is hit by a fire move, the air type gets a free wall. And, well, if an air wall is hit by a fire move, the wall gets MORE duration. So while you can hit an air type with 1 fire move, after that they are functionally inmune to fire for as long as the wall lasts
Not trying to be rude I just absolutely love the game and wanted to clarify some things-
totally unrelated but omg one night hot springs pfp!!!
I love casette beast. so happy to see it get mentioned
There's also the Ghost status effect, that is worth mentioning...
It also does have dual-typing via the fusion system, which I only call out because the discussion at 10:10 makes it sound like it doesn't have dual types at all
Ah yes. Challenging the Battle Hall in Pokemon Platinum, ended up in a one to one against a Shedinja with my Porygon Z. None of my attacks could hit it, the Shedinja had one move that worked but Porygon Z had recover. It was a battle of just wasting moves over and over again until finally Porygon Z started struggling and knocked it out. Easily the worst battle I've ever had in Pokemon.
Then there's me in the battle tower in Emerald as a kid, and me not knowing what Shedinja even IS. I cried because it was invincible to all of my attacks.
@@batofdestinygood.
so, does this proves that pokemon is the worst game of all time?
@@kuro4282 It proves that Generation 4 of Pokémon are the worst games of all time.
@@Deadflower019 nice, a new "worst generation of all time", i already saw generation 2, 6, 7, 8 and 9 being called "the worst of the series"
what other generic critims you going to say? i bet you think 3d ruined pokemon forever.
For anyone who knows what Pokemon Brick Bronze is, the developers made their own monster catching game which does have immunities in it, Loomian Legacy, along with getting boosts from certain attacks, and saving your allies during double battles.
Plant is immune to Light Moves
Light is immune to Spirit Moves
Earth(Rock+Ground) is immune to Electric Moves
Sponge is an ability that makes you immune to Water Moves
Prismatic is an ability that makes you immune to Light Moves
Woodsman is an ability that makes you immune to Plant Moves
Lightning Rod is an ability that makes you immune to Electric Moves
Reflective is an ability that makes you immune + bounce back Light Moves
Also Doodle World as well! It seems the Creature-Catching Roblox genre isn’t any of immunities.
They said: "If Nintendo gonna DMCA us, we'll make our own game!"
Wish they hadn't updated babore/boarok. The new models are too fuzzy.
@@BoneWalker Yeah, they do look kind of weird, they completely switched up the personality it gives off
9:34 There are immunities in Coromon in the traits, but only in the enhanced traits by not evolving the Coromon
like water cooled++ which makes the user immune to water
@@shelmet5 It's a fire immunity
"Immunites" have been around in games in one form or another. Even BEFORE games even existed; in Super Mario Bros. Spinies are immune to being stomped on, and Buzzy Beetles and Bullet Bills were immune to fire. Hell, there were enemies like Jelectrodes and Pudoboos that were invincible and had to be avoided. Even in Dungeons and Dragons there were enemies that needed Magic Weapons to hit them, Red Dragons were immune to fire, Golems could not be affected by spells. Ganon in most Zelda game require the Master Sword and sometimes you have to upgrade it to even do that. Even in non-game there were Werewolves you needed silver to hit or Helgasts from Lone wolf that needed the Summerswerd. and in the real world there are things immune to poisons and diseases.
Immunities are a way to block progress and require the player to do certain content and bring the skills/resources requires as opposed to just chipping away mindlessly. Immunites can also be pierced (like the various Break spells in SMT games) and things that just straight up pierce immunites (such as X of the gods that YHWH uses). Immunities are not new.
If you are just stating immunities have been in the game for a long time, yes, it is a true statement. We're emphasizing the immunity system in the *linear system "beast-tamer" genre.* He stated in the beginning about the sub-game genre he was focusing on. Everything you've said is outside of that genre, like SMB is a platformer, Zelda is adventure and roguelike (depending which Zelda game), DND is an open real-RPG. It's like saying Goombas (and all enemies) are immune to walking straight into them, you have to jump on them or use a power up otherwise-but this is not so relevant to genre at hand, hence, obviously all are games but they are different genres.
Games to note that are in this linear turn-based or beast-tamer game genre are EarthBound or Mother series, Undertale, and Dragon Quest.
@@stealthgamer4620 Miracle Eye, Foresight, and the Ability Mold Breaker exist. Also DoT effects like Sandstorm, Hail, Poison, can bypass an immunity because they aren't direct attacks (although those have immunites as well).
You do realized that he mentioned how immunities work in other non turn based things...
You are reiterating some of the stuff he already said.
But he was talking about specifically turn based battle series like Pokemon and how hard it makes types to balance.
Also, Pokemon isn't new... so....
But the way immunities are implemented in Pokemon is unique and isn't being copied by other series...
@@TheDeathmail final fantasy.
@@shirrenthewanderer414 It basically has so much stuff (Pokemon, abilities, moves and items) for an RPS based game (Rock Paper Scissors), that it enables to allow all these different immunities. If there were a smaller selection of types, this immunity system would be a hard to implement…I talk all about this in my own comment thread in the comment section. That’s all I have to say for now.
Did not expect RTGame to appear in this, but I’m not disappointed. Also, love the name ATP for the concept, absolute GENIUS naming.
I'm shocked that there even are people who have issues with immunities. They're one of the most interesting mechanics in Pokemon imo
Probably because Pokemon is the only game series where immunities add fun rather than frustration. If my overlevelled Charizard with sunny day and 3 fire moves is walled by a lv 15 Growlithe with flash fire, that's on me for not catching 'em all, and the solution is spending 5 minutes to catch a Pidgeotto. In something like D&D, if an enemy is immune to what I've build around and I've got no other options, I just lose.
@@sarahr.8854 if you just lose then either the dm sucks or you're oblivious you're supposed to have alternate ways of approaching it
@@sarahr.8854Agreed. Tried to Thunderbolt the Ditto and lost? Well, you should have used something else then, what kind of lunatic fights with 24 moves of the same type? But I still think that using choice items should turn any immunities into inefectives. What if your choice specs psychic type gets wrapped by an Alolan Rattata?
@@RangeCMYKYou switch out. Immuinities are a big part of the competitive scene, partially because of how important chip damage can be, so having a way to halt the opponent's win condition and being able to keep that pokemon healthy prevents powerhouses from rampaging all over.
To give an example, before generation 6 the only type that resisted dragon type moves was the steel type, wich is also weak to ground, and almost every dragon type back then (with very few exceptions like Kingdra) had access to earthquake. If you didn't have pokemon like Skarmory or Bronzong, defending against those pokemon was almost impossible, and even then they still dominated online game. The addition of fairy types didn't even make dragons bad; you see the opponent has a fairy, you try to lure it out for the kill, and now your dragon can go back to the good old days of spamming outrage. It becomes a chess game where your opponent can't let you pick up that kill before handling your wincon first, but you neither can recklessly throw it out without disposing of its counter first, wich leads to a very interesting and fun strategic gameplan
It does balance the games at least. Otherwise you would just destroy everything with earthquake.
If you add random critical hits, an option could be that a critical hit bypasses immunities and deals normal damage, that way you could still have a rechargable mana system.
I think the type system in Megami Tensei is the most interesting because there are 3 separate types of immunites, Block, Drain, and Repel
I was just thinking about that, like "Man, imagine the mind games there would be in competitive if Absorbtion was more common"
And if you trigger one of them, your turn ends instantly and in some games the enemy gets a buff (this is actually the best implantation of affinity systems in a single player game)
@@parkershaw3753 Pokemon does have absorption abilities, and they did in-fact take complete control over short periods of the competitive scene.
To be fair SMT actually came b4 pokemon so pokemon could have gotten inspiration from that but as time went on thought maybe not. I mean to be honest feels like SMT going in a similar direction only to also back pedal hard alot too. I mean honestly if u wanna talk immunity look at the final magatama for SMT3 Nocturne. U just Null everything other than almighty and gun and gun didn't exist I'm that game. So unless u get hit by almighty ur safe and nothing can hurt you. Kinda busted, except u still can die to End game bosses since they spam almighty moves XD
@@nullpoint3346storm drain storm drain storm drain storm drain lightning rod lightning rod lightning rod lightning rod
8:25 There are people competing in the Junior's division of pokemon's official events that are younger than Pokemon Go
😰
They got 8y/o s in there??
@@darcash1738Most Pokemon trainers start out at 10
Jokes aside, holy crap!!!
@@darcash1738 8? I remember seeing 1 single final about the kid that had been stomping the competition the past years (I think that he was 12, the maximum accepted age iirc) VS a new 4, yes 4 year old girl.
In these the kids DO play properly, like pro players but with likely less knowledge on some details but still on top on the meta and how battles work.
The girl won, and she even guaranteed her victory with an awfully godlike prediction, she was kinda asked by the commentator about how she decided that move, she, the, again, 4 year old girl, explained precisely what happened without fear or thinking it twice, she expected a change his opponent could make and repeated a move to counter it (which crushed him and dropped his chances to 0).
It was amazing seeing that play and hearing her explain how she chose that move that guaranteed her victory.
More incredible was that she did with a Butterfree XD, didn´t even Gigamaxed it, it was a plain Butterfree, a Choice Scarf Sleep Powder one though.
And here i thought Conditional insta-kills would be the topic of discussion haha
Another interesting thing is that in Shin Megami Tensei, your creatures can acquire their type matchup interactions through level-up or fusion and, not only that, there are a lot of type interactions, from immunity to deflection and even absorption. Like Cassette Beasts, these interactions occupy the same slots that can be occupied by attacks or in-battle status moves
Well, demons in SMT also have inherent typings. It's not _always_ a passive skill. Another interesting thing is that demons can learn Pierce passive skills, allowing their attacks to affect enemies that Block and Absorb as if they were neutral, but Reflect still works fine.
This video's topic is pretty interesting considering SMT builds its whole battle system around immunities much more than resistance, since they affect press turns.
@@Kevin_Anderson see what's actually interesting is that depending on the game Pierce will also ignore Reflect. I know that in Devil Survivor and vanilla SMT4 pierce cannot bypass reflect but in Apocalypse and SMT5 they will
MT such as SMT have a very Reaction-based system for Monsters without revolving around Inherent Types for Monsters with weird hidden exceptions like Persona 4, unlike Pokémon with Inherent Type with Monsters where the Reactions are based off the Inherent Type.
Pikachu learning a Move to null one of their Electric Weaknesses or of a Neutral or Resistant reaction would be controversial, but MT has been doing that shit for years.
Monster Collector's grandma is not great because she is old, but because she is fucking strange and I love that. Like what Pokémon inspired game has moves where your Monster gains a temporary reaction IE Null or Repel? MT and its inspired games do.
I only wished that in SMT 5 the AI would take into account your immunities instead of just using random attacks. Like, geez, you already tried using lightning magic on the MC 3 times already, it's not going to suddenly work the 4th time. And on top of that they LOSE an additional action, which makes most of the game really easy when you know how to abuse it.
@@MimicAraiun I mean that's like the entire point of the system. Late game bosses are "supposed* to have Almighty or pierce moves so it doesn't end up like that but sometimes the AI gets weird
8:20 “the recent mobile spinoff game”🦕
What-
@@indrajeetmitra9989 He's saying he's a dino for seeing Pokemon GO as recent, as it was launched in 2016
@@Lonrok 2016 is recent tho ?
@@kiwan1450 That's 8 years ago, so it's not that recent, specially for a videogame. Think about the fact that people were complaining about GTA V in 2018, and here we have an older game when compared to the time
@@Lonrok Depends on the video game, The Witcher 3 was released in 2015 the game is still somthing
I'm also working on a pokémon-like game (although I'm much earlier in the creative process than you, and I started because I saw your project, so thanks!) and I feel like immunities are a very fun mechanic overall. Having to play around not being able to do damage at all in certain circumstances can lead to very creative thinking in my opinion, so I'll be keeping them, although I'll have very few in types, and more in abilities.
How is the game coming along?
6:44 the thing about this is that, pokemon is very strategic.
Battles often require risky plays where there are wins and losses
In casual play, it boils down to whether or not you have an even remotely balanced team. You'd need to be actively trying to handicap yourself in order to soft-lock yourself as is described in this video. And even then, you couls just restart from your last save, or just lose the battle and restart form the PC. This is NOT soft-locking.
For competitive, immunities are an invaluable tool to take advantage of and take into consideration. If you fail to learn and exploit such mechanics, maybe conpetitive just ain't for you.
@@a_rat_named_mouse I'm guessing they meant to say "forced loss" rather than "softlock", since the player always has the option to remove a Choice item after the battle if it's causing them trouble. They do address that Choice items are valued in competitive play, so I think the point was more for demonstrative purposes rather than to say it was some sort of major issue.
@@Antifrost
Define "forced loss". Is it a "forced loss" if I am playing Rock-Paper-Scissors and continue to lose because I refuse to use anythijg other than Rock? Is it a "forced loss" if I repeatedly try to use blitzkrieg tactics on a map with wide, open areas and lots of snipers? Is it a "forced loss" if I play as the slowest car and refuse to use pick-up items and don't win?
Even if it is a "forced loss", is it "wrong"? If I make bad plays, or outright stupid decisions, should it not be harder to win? Should I be surprised that the same tactic isn't working over and over again, or should I have expected it?
I do not like this line of thinking in the slightest, as it almost implies any form of playing the game should always be enough to get the same results as any of method. In reality, you are rewarded for being smart and good, and you are punished for being dumb and bad. And I feel that is how it should be.
@@a_rat_named_mouse I don't think those examples are quite as comparable, but even so I think you're taking something from this video that wasn't stated (or at least not intentionally). I'm not the one who made it so granted I'm assuming as well, but I'm fairly certain they're presenting that situation as a thing that could happen with the mechanics at play. While they're somewhat pejorative about it, if they were so against immunities, they wouldn't have included the section talking about their benefits to gameplay or be including the mechanic in their own game.
at some point i had the inspiration to design my own creature collector game and immunities just felt natural to include. i think the "softlock" presented by immunities is more on the player for not having significant enough coverage (choice items aside), at least in pokemon.
one hugely important thing with immunities in a pvp setting is if a move affects the field state AND can be blocked by an immunity, that can be a pretty interesting interaction. the most significant example in pokemon is spinblocking - blocking rapid spin with ghost types to prevent entry hazards such as spikes from being cleared. as a competitive pokemon player i find the dynamic created around entry hazards + spinblocking one of the most interesting things to play around with.
@@disasterarea9341 yeah! i enjoy interactions like that too
I feel like the inclusion of them is a healthy counterbalance against brute force, and more often than not, a player getting themselves into a losing situation with them is more a fault on the player than the game.
like if someone plays Mario but never uses the jump button, it's not the game's fault if they run over into a pit, the tools and knowledge were made available, the player just walked themselves into a bad situation.
@@Ehibika True. Choice Band Outrage spam dropped off a cliff after fairy got introduced i will say/
Repeling damage is pretty common mechanic in Megami Tensei games not just Persona and Draining or absorbing elemental damage is also pretty common in at least Final Fantasy titles.
Also adding Steel and Dark was also intended as a nerf to Normal Types by making Fighting types stronger. Normal Types were low key stronger than non legendary Psychics in Gen1 after Baring Mew and Mewtwo, who are banned, Tauros, Chansey and Snorlax are considered mandatory for your team to be considered good.
Only Choice Band existed in Generation 3, Choice Scarf and Specs were introduced in Diamond and Pearl.
Also Pokemon Inheirts it's concept of Power Points from The early SaGa/Final Fantasy Legend titles on the Gameboy. SaGa/FFL didn't use MP but had Uses with Items breaking once they ran out and Abilities being rechared at an Inn or items IIRC.
8:52 "Even the most punishing FromSoft boss could let you deal _some_ damage."
Yhorm the Giant's 100% fire absorption says hi.
...or it would, if he didn't just hand you his weakness in the Storm Ruler...
He's not a boss, he's a peg in square hole puzzle
_"That's right, the square hole"_
I was coming here to say this. There are more than a few FromSoft bosses that are immune to Fire or Poison. Just check the challenger runner community.
Pokemon should play more with immunities
Specially with Terratypes
Having more immunities with being able to change your type would have been cool
Yeah, maybe terror type can always be immune to itself
@@umwha I say because… imagine a pokemon with motor drive with water terra type. Or a water absorb Pokémon with terra rock
Those would be pretty cool strategies to work around
Specially if you take in consider the types your Pokémon has before and after the terra
Like… a ghost gym leader could have a terra fairy type to cover the dark weakness. Or a fire user using a grass type with terra fire to cover ALL it’s weaknesses
@@arielalejandrodelfabro1740 This is done sometimes, but Tera is such a valuable tool and its rarely worth it. if your using a tera type for support and not offense, most the time the pokemon is just using tera types: Ghost (for fake out immunity), Water, Steel, or Poison
What if ATP is a resource you can choose to regen in battle? Make it so that players have some sort of sub-action for items that, when not being used for buffing/healing items, it can be used to regenerate ATP, or can be ignored.
Call it a 'Tamer/Trainer Action"
13:40 Don't forget about the abilities that ignore other abilities such as mold breaker.
And abilities or attacks that let you ignore immunities.
Scrappy lets you hit ghosts with any attack.
Smackdown removes the Flying type from an opponent.
Roost removes the Flying type from yourself.
12:33 Weezing Koffing signature ability neutralising gas is shown tho. This was from the Galar games pre release trailer, right?
@@frantisekvrana3902heck, Thousand Arrows is a ground type move that not only hits flying types it removes their ground immunity like Smack Down.
The issue is most of these abilities just arent good. like the only Okay pokemon that have any ability like this, are Teal Mask ogerpon which never gets value from its mold breaker and is honestly just a tera sink for the speed it gets from embody aspect (teal) and UrsalunaBM with minds eye which it does get value from, but it really doesn't *need* it and would honestly be more balanced without it.
@@Hyper_Drud Issue is that thousand Arrows is a signature move on an UBER pokemon that's almost never in any games so its not in Smogon or VGC, and Smack down is just really bad.
Norist: (talks about immunities)
Masakados magatama and demi-fiend essence: allow us to introduce ourselves.
As a competitive pokemon-er, I can confirm Shedinja has infinite counters.
Entry hazards
Will O' Wisp
Toxic
Any confusing move
Mold breaker
Neutralizing Gas.
Type changing moves
Moves that ignore abilities.
Add sandstorm to that list
The intro of the video made me think you where going to talk about the EV's mechanic XD
Dear god, god forbid that mechanic being in other monster tamers. That's seriously for the competitive players.
@@greenapple9477 us competitive players hate it too. grinding for that shit is fucking horrible.
EVs are one thing but IVs are completely and utterly pointless tbh
In my opinion, you shouldn't use an energy based system for moves. My main problem is that such systems only really favor bulky creatures. Example: Imagine your Blaziken uses Close Combat and I switch in Toxapex, in a game with PP this means very little as you can still use 7 more no problem, and you most likely won't even need them all. But, in game with energy, Blaziken has just been set back by quite a bit. Now it can use very few of all its moves and the option of recharging its energy through a move/item is too risky, as losing a turn doing nothing while being so frail could very much mean its end, but the same problem doesn't apply to Toxapex, as its bulk allows it to take multiple hits with no problem while still being able to do progress to your team with status or other similar effects. Also another problem, though this one is more of my opinion, it can downgrade the difficulty in some in game areas. For example, in Pokemon there are a few "gaunlet" areas where you have to fight trainers back to back, thus making your PP a very important resource that you must manage. This in turn makes it feel like your moves are more important and playing well is more rewarding, while making things like immunities and misses less frustating for the player, which in an energy system would send the player back even further.
A good example of MP leading to longer battles is Final Fantasy 1 on the NES and Playstation and the Pixel Remaster kinda vs Final Fantasy I on the GBA, PSP, IOS, Android and 3DS. In older versions of Final Fantasy I with Spell slots you couldn't spam your highest level spells you'd run out and have to rely on lower levels spell and while there are great spells like Haste and Temper for Black Magic and Protect for White Magic. White Mages couldn't always rely on casting Healga to restore your party's HP against AOE attacks, reducing the Physical Damage the party takes with Protera or constantly reviving teamates with Life or Full-Life. Black mages couldn't rely on pasting every random encounter with their strongest Spells. There were equipment that when used casted mostly mid level spells to help out however.
The GBA and all version up until the Pixel Remaster swapped the Spell Slot system for MP in addition to adding items like Ethers(MP Restorative), Elixirs(HP and MP Restoritive), High Potions(Stronger HP Restorative) and Pheonix Downs(Revival) and some stronger spellcasting equipment. This makes dugeons in general vastly easier but in return bossed had their HP cranked way up. The Final Boss in the NES version only had 2000 HP(4000 HP on Playstation) and it isn't that hard for a party to paste in a few turns baring a poor run in the final dungeon. The final boss on the all version after wards has 20000 HP with only intended postgame dungeon Bosses having Higher stats. It can drag on long enough that the final boss can actually potentially reach Curaja on its spell list for a full heal something that was unlikely to happen if you were playing normally on earlier versions. It also leads to bit of Mismatch in intended capabilities on the Pixel Remaster version as that one keeps the higher stats on bosses but brings back spell slots.
Bulky creatures in pokemon aren't even good unless they can recover HP or do a lot of damage
Like, oh no it would be bad for nuke monsters. That's not inherently bad. Nuke monsters having a limit to how often they can nuke you in a row is a balancing factor, actually
5:10 was such a good joke. I can’t even be mad.
TH-cam's preview for next video shortened the title to "The Pokemon Mechanic"
It would be funny for my Stema to be out of energy and short of breath during a hectic fight, and the pain from the lactic acids being produced kills it
Game idea: eat a spicy pepper everytime he says "like levitate"
You got a pretty cool video art style chum! Keep up the good work!
I was not expecting ALL of the ghost types in the scene showing all of them to have custom art of their own and its incredible
If you wanted to make your system more unique compared to other games in the genre, you could have it so that you need to feed your monsters specific made foods in order for them to have the energy to use a move type.
For example, if you wanted to use your muscle type moves, your mon would have to be fed a glucose energy type which gives it the strength to do the action. And once it runs out of that type of energy it no longer do the moves.
As for prevention of soft locks, you could have it so that once the Mon loses all it's energy it dies, regardless of how much HP it has. Since cells need energy to work, no energy means no power which means death.
Which also allows you to be more diverse with your options so that you don't just pump everything into a single monster and bulldoze everything. Now you'd have to balance the power of moves with the energy you have left for that mons actions.
And heck you could have the hp resource be a thing for cells which eat or destroy other cells for energy, like white blood cells. That way you can add new strats and mechanics to further flesh out battles
Clicked because Shedinja
Same
Same
Immunity/absorption of fire made some important battles in Final Fantasy Tactics unintendedly anticlimactic
I like the drawings in your video. They're cute. :)
and I agree. Immunities add more strategy to the game. As annoying as Electric type immunity to Ground types is, it makes sense. Even when dealing with electrical circuits, the ground exists to make sure you don't get shocked. #TheMoreYouKnow
I feel like the perfect game to clone Pokemon is actually a roblox game called Loomian Legacy. Having Identical types, identical abilities, but having a mana pool that ALSO has a struggle feature. You CAN regenerate EP as they call it, but it uses a move, and only regens a set amount. Rest and Wait make it so you can sit out moves too. It has the same idea as "I have enough EP to beat him with my moves" but also gives the "Okay, I don't have enough EP, if I rest now, I'm done for". And of you don't have enough EP, you'll also struggle, but instead of 100% chance to damage, LL's struggle is chance. Meaning struggle isn't fool proof, and it has 100% chance to recoil. It also gives items that gives EP during the match, but it's usually (Like with the Kabunga Coffee) every 2 - 3 moves.
Flail doesnt miss.. in fact.. it bypasses dode and scapegoat.. so it has 101% accuracy
In Honkai: Star Rail there is no direct immunity against attack types only resistances but enemies can be immune to a specific debuff. In HSR every type has a debuff that this type can apply like Fire = Burning; Physical = Bleeding and Ice = Frozen and so on, so fire enemies can be immune against burning and ice enemies immune against frozen.
Good analysis. SMT has entered the chat. Also when at first you were like "this mechanic from gen 1 is scary" I was like which one lol. Good luck on the game and I'll stay tuned on it!
Omg your idea for tp is SO COOL it works so well it gets rid of the issue of boringly being no longer able to use moves and makes it way more exicting I can just imagine bein at low hp and havin to decide if I should risk using a move or switching out!
Both your videos and your WIP game are super creative!:)
I can’t wait to see the finished STEMA and keep up the amazing videos!!
5:50 Its funny that Fairy was made to counter the 'overpowered' Dragon type--which hot take really wasn't that overpowered, given that it was super effective against itself, or had a secondary typing that wasn't weakened by dragon's four resistances, especially dragon types that were also ground, grass, or flying, meaning that in competative play you still had pretty good ways to counter them; and in casual play dragon types were almost always end-game pokemon--by being an _actually_ overpowered type with two weaknesses, with the poison weakness being negated by the fact a good third of the fairy type roster are also either dual psychic or steel typing; which resist and are immune to poison respectively. And by funny I mean its absolutely infuriating.
Dragon types in gen 5 were a fucking problem. Fairy types are also a problem but not to the same "gen 1 psychic/normal" degree that dragons were
Dragons were only weak to two types. Ice and Dragon.
They were only strong against one type. Dragon. And in Gen 1, there was just one Dragon type move. Dragon Rage, which always dealt 40 damage, regardless of resistances.
So really, Dragons were weak only to Ice, and strong against nothing in Gen 1.
Dragon type was resistant to Starter Types and Electric.
So dragon was really a defensive type, before Steel was introduced to replace it.
With Fairy, I don't get it. I think Fairy should be not very effective against Dragons, and ineffective against steel. But dragon should be not very effective against fairy. Incompatible magic.
Pokémon could buff ice and psychic resist fairy maybe, it was useful to have the type of fairy added so certain pokémon like spiritomb got a weakness. Also clefairy was finally a fairy.
There’s this action monster tamer called Kindred Fates, and the way they do it is instead of doing elemental bonuses, the types attacks have playstyle advantages, for example:
Fire: zoner/range
Water: combo/flow
Plant: token/minion
The range and aoe could take care of the minions more easily, the combo and flow style makes it harder for the fire zoner, and the minions could become too much for the water user to just combo
I'm pretty sure a soft-lock is being unable to progress in a game. You cannot 'soft-lock' against a friend or in a pvp battle as it does not lock you out of progressing in the game.
That's a hard lock
@felipecastanha9161 A soft-lock can lead to a hard-lock. If you save the game while in a situation in which you can not make progress in a game, the soft-lock becomes a hard-lock. A soft-lock is being unable to make any progress in a game, and a hard-lock is saving the game while it's soft-locked.
Neither of these can ever be a hard lock. A hard lock is a state where the game is unable to receive any inputs whatsoever, almost always because the game has crashed or froze. Hence why it's a "hard" lock: you can't use any inputs to even begin to attempt to get out of the situation. Technically, even if you are stuck in an area where your character can't move at all, with something blocking the left, right, top, and bottom tiles, if your character can turn, if you can open your Bag, if you can save your game, then you can still do *something*. Soft locks allow you to make inputs, just that you are completely unable to progress
@byeguyssry You are correct. I really should have looked up the information before I posted.
What I would like to see in your game is a creature that works with the study of pressure and explosives because they go under the t in stem
2:39 NFTs?!?!!!!
if creature collector games are afraid of immunities then megami tensei must be nightmarish considering that some demons can reflect or even heal from certain types of damage
Silly little idea (Mainly because idk if this is how it works)- if you add mitochondria they could make atp for other creatures in your party to let you stall for a bit longer.
It could be like a leftovers-esque item but for atp
omg atp for action points is so clever :3 love the stem stuff
Uh the way I felt the minute of silent reflection when confronted with the memory of WHEN Pokémon Go came out...
I still remember in SMTV there was an Abscess fight against a boss that only had Physical moves. I put a phys immunity on Nahobino, went in with no demons, and just turned on auto-battle for an hour while my controller charged. Can’t wait for the re-release.
Was it the Werwolf?
@@brotbrotsen1100 I think it was Yamata-no-Oorochi, in the last open area
I'm in love with how you combine a video essay about monster collector tropes with science and some of your own design. It feels like you have such an inquisitive mind and passion for the topic! You maybe just need a couple people with dev experience to take some of the practical load off while you can remain focused on the creative part.
Anyway, keep it up!
If you've ever played Epic Battle Fantasy 5, that game has an element system where each attack has an element and each character has weaknesses or resistances to said elements. If your resistance is high enough, you can even heal based on how much damage you'd usually take
While yes, some abilities allow for the Pokémon to be immune, for example levitate, there are also some abilities that negate immunities, such as scrappy.
I have another idea there can be a special move that can be used by everyone called final solution or something else which is basically struggle but it can only be if you have depleted your mana and not damage the enemy
Random computer science based ideas:
O-notation family. Something like O(log n), O(n), O(n^2) in which O(log n) decreases defence but increases speed, O(n) stames the same, O(n^2) increases defence but decreases speed. Or to be closer to the concept make O(n) move/ability give itslef stat boosts, O(n^2) give itself a stacking effect that gives stat boost every few turns, O(2^n) give itself a stacking effect that gives stat boost and doubles itself every few turns. Maybe add something to show that low asymptote means faster on very big inputs, not necessary on small inputs.
Recursion mon. Something crazy like recursive substitutes? Maybe each substitute has less hp or after spawning enough you reach recursion depth limit, lose all substitutes and do some damage to the opponent. Alternatively, make mutual recursion mon that becomes stronger when you switch it with another mon a lot.
Compilatiin phases family. Lexer - parser - optimizer - code generator? It is probably too much and one should be removed. They can have different types like electricity/geo (lexer does ground work) - electricity/grass (parser builds parse tree) - electricity/fairy (optimizers are a bit magic))) - electricity/steel (because code generation is close to hardware). Their abilities/moves are probably focused on something like lowering enemy defence for frontend, buffing its attack/speed for optimizer and dealing damage for code generator.
So glad for the ATP reference, I saw it immediately and came straight to the comments to see if anyone else noticed it before you referenced it 😅
A suggestion:
ATP should probably act more like Hearthstone's mana system, except instead of the increase over time, you can shift the available amount with abilities, items, and moves that replicate or reference the effects of other bio-chemical energy systems, since almost all of them funnel down to and up from ATP.
Seeing as shedinja is my favourite pokemon, i already know the video is gonna be amazing
It was, You explained abilities really well. but that front facing shedinja picture, thats probably my favourite pokemon you've redrawn, he looks SO cute.
Cicadas are cute in my opinion in real life too. Tho there is only one species very rare in my land so I have never seen these animals in wild.
Shedinja and ninjask are very cute pokémon in my opinion, I wish Game freak would buff their stats a bit. And I do not mean the hp stat for shedinja obviously. They could make nincada evolve later level because cicadas metamorphosis happens after a long time. But maybe I'm hoping too much.
Pokémon Conquest has immunities.
Oh right! There's more than just Pokemon Ranger.
Now imagine the games where some elements actually *heal* you or the enemy rather than deal no damage.
13:19 - Temtem has 2 traits like this: Water Synthesizer and Electric Synthesize. They make the holder immune to the type and restore HP equal to the amount of damage they would have taken.
16:07 - Temtem has something similar to this. Temtem can use their HP to perform techniques if they don't have enough STA (Stamina) to do it, 2-5 HP per STA point missing depending on the Tem's level. However, the Temtem becomes overexerted for the next turn meaning they can't use any technique until the turn after being overexerted. Some traits utilize this overexertion mechanic too.
What's your rank in TemTem
@@anula7694 If you're talking about competitive rank, I don't play competitive Temtem.
@@GroundedAura oh I see
Big point why immunities in pokemon are such a great thing is the tactical dephs it gives in PvP with free switch ins through immunities
It would have been very fun if the zodiac beasts were based on now-discredited science concepts, like string theory, phlogiston, aether, geocentrism, etc
When was string theory discredited? And what hypothesis/theory replaces it now?
@burner555 it was never a genuine theory to begin with, and only in recent decades has the guys championing it admitted that.
It hasn't been replaced, because it was never the accepted model.
This video is a reasonable explanation of all the things that happen around it.
th-cam.com/video/kya_LXa_y1E/w-d-xo.htmlsi=gW_W9XSfF-eGd_ar
Oh what the hell, i did not expect to see one of your videos THIS fast, lets gooo!!
5:45 Dark was definitely designed to tackle Psychic, as in gen 1 the Psychic type was super powerful. The Special split into Special Attack and Special Defence was another method to nerf Psychic types.
People talk about how good Psychic was and dark being made to put it down.
But Steel further diminishing the effectiveness of the TRUE king of Gen 1 (normal) is just as important.
And the true blow to the viability of psychic came 13 years after dark. (Which didn't really hit it's stride until Unova anyways)
And it's Fairy being outright better at most of the same jobs.
This vid was super good and your game looks fun and original-- Subbed so it stays on my radar!
12:50 *Technically* Levitate isn't an Immunity ability in the same way, say Water Absorb or Flash Fire are; *Technically* it applies the Raised condition, & said condition makes you immune to Ground type moves, Terrain effects, & non-typed hazards (The same is true of Flying's Ground immunity; See the interaction with Gravity)
More interestingly, the "Raised" condition isn't simply removed. Gravity (and Smack Down/Thousand Arrows) inflicts the "Grounded" status. This status specifically removes the immunities of Levitate and the Flying-type.
This is noteworthy as "Grounded" does not remove Shedinja's immunity to Ground, nor does it disable Orthworm's "Earth Eater" ability (which causes it to heal whenbhit by Ground moves).
One game I highly recommend for your research these sorts of games is Loomian legacy. They use energy that you can rest to regain, and have many immunities just like pokemon.
Personally the early game isnt all that great, but you can tell that the quality does increase after the 2nd or 3rd gym. (The game is still incomplete at the moment)
4:55 Reminds me of a Magical Camp area.
15:00 To be fair, it is possible to replenish power points, especially with Recycle. Also worth mentioning that Struggle bypasses almost everything.
I'm not a Pokémon enthusiast, but definitely very interested in game design. I'm a fan of type-systems and their interactions. This was interesting and well presented, like the distinction between action resources.
Somewhat alright competitive player here. Immunities are genuinely good things as they give counterplay and risk to certain things. What is stopping a Dragapult from just running Choice Band and Spamming Dragon Darts? Oh right, Any fairy type. Whats stopping a Choice band sand rush excadrill from spamming EQ through an entire team, oh yeah, a skarmory or pelipper. Forcing opponents into unwinnable situations is the whole reason shedinja is viable and is a genuine strategy used and switching is a fundamental part of pokemon, Pokemon is such a good competitive game because it requires you to think and resistances play into this super super well. You need to switch, you need to sac, you need to do things to play around resistances, immunities, anything. Not to mention almost every mon will usually run coverage which is already needed to win most the time. Immunities are genuinely insanely good aspects for thinking in pokemon and a big part in why Ghost and Ground types are actually really good types. If ghost only resisted Fighting and Normal, it would not be nearly as good of a defensive type. and Tera Ghost would drop off a cliff. Especially in VGC, since fake out is a normal type move, ghost types are Ghost Terastalization are really really good for mons that use focus sash for example. Immunities and things like this allow weaker or Frail mons to be more viable. Thats my piece, good video though.
cool analysis bro hope your game comes awesome. You remember me how I wanted to make a pokemon like game in school too lolz.
Also that origin for your mon at the end was so nerd haha love it
0:20 Absolute SHADE thrown at both Cassette Beasts and Coromon by mislabeling them
On the subject of ATP, you can always make it so the ATP recharges every 2 or 3 turns, thus staying true to how it works IRL.
Also, maybe add things like altered stats that lowers the ATP every turn or stops it from recharging?
Or adding a way to spend ATP faster like if you use a method like PLA where a "Charged" attack spends more ATP to do more damage or another benefit (This could also make a "Gonna spend my ATP so i can start using my HP to attack" strategy in case of inmunity softlock, or just a teambuild focused on self-HP loss)
I just thought about that while watching. I truly began to appreciate this mechanic while playing hardmode romhacks like Pokemon Radical Red. Switching safely is one of the key aspects in winning a lot of these fights.
Forgot to say this when the vid came out, but I remember early on I only taught my pokemon stab moves, which meant that whenever I went surfing in pokemon black, my level 100 samurott was *incapable* of harming any level 5+ frillish I encountered if they had water absorb
Would not NAD be a better Name for the PP then ATP? ATP is the universal Energy of eukaryot Cells, but Eukaryots also use GTP, CTP and UTP in a lot of processes for Energy. CTP and UTP are used when you need to activate specific Molecules like Glucose for other reactions, while GTP and ATP are used to save Energy gained from reactions.
NAD (and FAD to a lesser extend) is pretty much the same, just older. Prokaryots use it for Energy. Even in Eukaryots NAD is still used for Energy. The F1/F0-ATPase in the Mitochondria uses mechanical rotation, startet from NADH and FADH2. NADH produces 2 ATP and FADH2 produces 1,5 ATP. The Szent-György-Krebs-Cicle in the Mitochondria produces 3x NADH, 1x FADH2 and 1x GTP, while the Step befor, the Glycolysis, produces 2 NADH and 2 ATP
There are interesting counterbalances to immunities as they're presented in Pokemon. For example, Fairy may be immune to Dragon, but Dragon moves are somewhat uncommon (in comparison to the number of moves other types have), so it's not likely that a player would find themselves up against a Fairy opponent with a full set of four Dragon moves. While Normal moves don't affect Ghosts, Normal-type Pokemon often can be taught moves of a variety of types, giving them the ability to deal with multiple type combinations. Choice items can certainly lock you into an unwinnable situation (which happened to me in a casual tournament I played in with my friends when my opponent's Gardevoir Traced my Flareon's Flash Fire and I was forced into using Flare Blitz), but those items are usually only available post-game or late-game. By the time a player reaches them, they're more likely to have enough of a familiarity with type machups to know the risks and benefits of equipping them.
It's also rewarding when you learn how to use immunities to your advantage. I can't remember if I was playing Pearl or Platinum, but I caught a Drifloon who has three type immunities - Normal, Fighting, and Ground. It's balanced by having low defensive stats (despite a large HP stat) and a whole host of other type weaknesses, but it managed to do something that I had never seen up to that point - it forced a Gym Leader to retreat their Pokemon. Specifically, Maylene's Lucario didn't have a move that could damage it, so she switched out. That let me know that once I got her down to only Lucario, I practically had a guaranteed win. I brought that Drifblim with me everywhere after that battle.
I think the spinoff games handle immunities in the way they do because you're usually battling with a limited team. I don't know about Pokemon Go, but in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon or Pokemon Masters, you only have 2 to 4 Pokemon with you at any time. It'd be a lot easier to find yourself in a situation where you couldn't swap out to another Pokemon with an effective move, so having immunities function as a stronger version of resistances is a fair tradeoff in my opinion. Pokemon Masters actually only has weaknesses and no resistances or immunities (at least since the last time I played), but the concept still applies. In a game like Pokken Tournament where battles are 1v1 (with supports, and yes there is a 3v3 mode but it's still one Pokemon at a time), type matchups of any sort could drastically alter the balance of the game, and immunities could make some matchups unwinnable. The context of the game is important in deciding whether or not the mechanic is appropriate.
the cassette beasts interactions conceptually makes sense with a stem focused game. in the real world, whenever you put in energy, that energy needs to go somewhere, it never just does nothing, what it does might be unnoticeable, but it still does something
I wanted to add that temtem has a few more immunities in the form of restoring hp when hit with certain types. There's three different traits that do this for water, electric, and toxic types techniques.
This is interesting because I'm working out a creature collector game in my head and an idea I had for my version of the ghost type is that they should be immune to all physical attacks dealt by non-ghosts. At least if their first type is Ghost.
An example of such a system that I can remember is in a roblox game called "Loomain Legacy", it still has immunities but it also has an energy system. The interesting thing is that this energy is still always renewable with "wait" and "rest", which are two options that you ALWAYS have regardless of build as they don't count as a equip able move. However if you lack the energy to use a move the game will ask you if you want to use it still and you accept, the loomain will essentially use struggle (although it is not named in-game)! This allows for an anti-softlock that actually can be accessed way faster than exhausting PP.
Loomian Legacy has been covered on this channel in a video about weather in creature collectors
I made a simple Damage Type table for a game project that I have been working on for years.
Physical, Magical, Weapons, Lightning, Water, Fire, Ice, Light, and Dark.
While Physical, Magical, and Weapon are not really Damage Types, they are still important. As some Creatures are resistant, weak, or immune to them. Weapons is being used as an umbrella for a large list of Weapon Types that the Player can get.
Light and Dark are treated like a force that affects the Soul of creatures, thus, Robots are naturally immune.
Lightning, Water, Fire, and Ice are what can be called, The Elements. Lightning beats Water, Water beats Fire, and Fire and Ice cancels each other. I know that Lightning is powerful but I do plan on expanding this table to have more Elements, but it makes a good starting point.
I just found your channel, stema looks so fucking cool! Im totally excited to try it when you get it going. As a indie dev whos done a couple of jams and am going to be going to Full Sail next month, I love unique concepts like the STEM based stuff. Truly educational to the young ones and really fucking cool as a concept to us hoity toity who haven't seen someone well read write something since futurama.
I feel like the most important thing to talk about with immunities, at least in creature catcher games, is that they're usually made to balance incredibly powerful moves.
For example Flying is immune to Ground of course. Why? Because of Earthquake, an incredibly strong, 100% accurate move that (disregarding flying itself) is a great offensive tool against many of Pokemon's strongest types like Electric and the ever-present in comp Steel. A simple resistance would do this job fine enough, but if the Earthquake is strong enough, the user might be able to muscle past the resistance entirely and making the move broken.
Immunities are also designed around negating secondary effects as well. For example compare the moves U-turn, Volt Switch and Flip Turn: All of these moves deal damage and then swap the user out to gain or maintain offensive momentum with the only difference being their types. These differences however are massive as anyone who plays Singles will tell you that U-turn is amazing, almost to the point of being broken. This is because volt switch gets blanked by ground types and flip turn gets blanked by mons with water immune abilities which stop their switching effects from going off. U-turn by contrast isn't immune to anything thereby making it the better of the 3 despite Bug being a worse offensive type in a vacuum.
You can argue that these interactions weren't made intentionally or not but the point is they exist and they're everywhere if you know where to look. When designing a creature catcher game, it might be a good idea to ask yourself if a great move warrants an immunity or 2 to create a more skill based environment.
Remembers hacked sturdy shedninja….. ptsd returns.
Edit: for the zodiac beasts you could do a post game chapter. A smaller game chapter after the main on like most polemon games do these days.
The Choice Band was the only choice item in Gen III, and worked on Physical and Special attacks in that generation. The Specs/Scarf didn't arrive until Gen IV.
I never even thought about this topic until seeing this video.
Yeah, it is pretty crazy just how game breakingly powerful Immunities are and why they actually do have a justified reason for existence as well as how they have actually been avoided in EVERY SINGLE OTHER FRANCHISE and even Pokémon themselves has never used it outside of a main series game and for good reason sense it is the most multiplayer and battle orianted system they have.
But taking Power Points into account to as part of the reason they exist the way they are? I never even considered that factor for just how majorly important it is. You're videos regarding Pokémon and this new series of yours which I hope comes to fruition as the entry in the Monster Catching RPG Genre that finally breaks the mold and becomes it's own thing to offer some equally enticing as Pokémon for different tastes.
I wish you nothing but the best of luck that every single idea you have comes true and this video game becomes more and more vastly complex and innovative and unique and creative. You just might be one of my favorite new content creators and the first of a kind I have not seen in a quite a while since Lockstin/Gnoggin or Emperor Kumquat the very first TH-camr I ever subscribed to (who I will not mention by name for respect to his privacy and current struggles and disappearance) who I have seen this level of sheer unbridled passion and ability to take apart and analyze and reconstruct a topic from the inside out.
And as such one of the very few TH-camrs who I have not immediately subscribed to or felt an obligation to do so with for the sake of this platform's bad algorithm or sense of loyalty to because I have genuinely become invested in the content you've created and as such gained a true appreciation and curiosity and urge to understand understand and learn from. Which is a typical TLDR way of me saying that I am happy to now officially subscribe to your channel. If you ever find yourself in need of a reason to keep pursuing your goals of creating this new videogame and if it is ever even worth the stress and struggle or if you ever find yourself losing the drive to do so, just know that I believe in you and will support whatever decision you make with whatever ambitions you choose to pursue so long as you don't stop because I know you're onto something. Something potentially big and grand. And I know that I am not the only one who believes this in you and the work you do in your craft. So here's to a new journey.
🌠
I had a similar issue with RPG combat mechanics where the Defense stat reduces damage subtractively, meaning that if the target's Defense was higher than the base damage that their attacker could do, they couldn't do any damage at all, or deal a minimum of 1 damage every hit.
A lot of RPGs will use a "Metal Slime" type enemy whose Defense is so high that you can only ever deal 1 damage to it at a time, so you have to attack it the same amount of times as its max HP if you don't have a way around its defenses.
If you want a way around this, I suggest an alternative damage formula like the following:
Damage = Attack^2 / (Attack + Defense)
This way Defense has no upper limit, but will rather have diminishing returns based on how much higher it is, relative to the attacker's strength.
Pokémon has some really weird interesting interactions with types
Like how Grass type is immune to spore or powder moves
Or if you use a fire type move, it ends the freeze status, same with hitting a frozen pokemon with a fire move (or a move associated with “hot” like scald)
your lesson on immunities being a good thing is EXACTLY why i use Nidoking against Koga in Heart Gold, its kinda nice being able to leave the battle and none of my other Pokemon are poisoned
If I remember right, casset beasts does have somewhere of a immunity move that applies a ghostly status to the user for a couple turns, during which they can’t be hit at all by damaging moves, but status moves will effect them. After the ghostly status runs out, whoever had the ghostly effect immediately has their hp brought to 0.
I like Fossil Fighters' idea for PP/MP. In that game, you gain FP on your turn, and FP is a shared resource between all your creatures. If a creature dies, its controller gains a bunch of FP back. I think it's nice to keep combat flowing and make it fun.
admittedly in pokemon mystery dungeon [mostly familiar with Rescue Team and Explorers] there's another option for how to avoid soft-locking with immunities: having an attack that falls outside the usual system. there's a non-move based attack that the player can use that doesn't interact with the type-chart and thus can't run into any immunities, plus it doesn't run on PP and thus wouldn't run on Mana Pools either. the reason it's not over powered is because it's pitiful... more so in the more recent games... but still, imagine an attack that can be used any time without fail [aside from accuracy checks] but does like 1-5 points of damage compared to an actual attack where there might be immunities or a resource cost involved with the higher damage output
Thanks to this vid I've now binged the whole Stemma playlist