How much wood could a Woodchuck chuck if a Woodchuck could chuck wood. Kinda sounds like that. Maybe How much Shame could a Shamecuck Shame if a Shamecuck could cuck Shame. You can replace the C with an F if you want.
Shame and guilt make it easier for others to manipulate and make you do things you wouldn't do any other way. You can change your mind on any subject if you push yourself and your mind. The true shame of this is she used this ability to gaslight herself into hating her body.
Yeah sometimes they think jeans make women look unprofessional I seen a snooty old man make a comment with his wife the other day saying how that looks so unprofessional for me to be wearing jeans no it doesn't actually because some companies allow jeans it makes women feel more comfortable to work in it. Trying to re build a shelf or scan inventory actually looks ridiculous in slacks because if your working in slacks it means you have some sort of high powered job, jeans says you might be a grocery clerk or waitress. I'm all for modesty in places of business but not on my day off. I feel like some women that are fully grown earned the right to not be modest on there day off because they work hard all week in jeans and in the heat of the summer it's kind of rude just to expect them to be modest at a beach or a gym some of these places require less clothing in order to achieve all your fitness goals..if women really were the less attractive gender they wouldn't be asking us to cover up. They want to hide God's creations and if you still have the body to wear that kind of stuff feel free to wear it because it be funny for a social experiment to see how all the men react some of them might not even hurt you they will be shocked because some of them may not have seen a woman in years.
It really is. I’m so relieved to be out of it. And women criticize other women if they think the cut of someone’s modest dress is not modest enough or if their bra isn’t thick enough and its cold. My old pastor’s wife was a christian mean girl.
It is, and designed to be that way. If one is constantly concerned about showing oneself improperly, that results in constant anxiety, throwing a person off balance and more easily controlled; "modesty" is also a distraction from thinking about things that actually matter in life.
My sister recently got catcalled for dressing "modestly." Some guy yelled out his truck window at her "thank you for dressing modestly!" She told me she felt it was more insulting than "regular" catcalling. The irony of this was clearly lost on him that he implied she was dressing modestly to avert the male gaze and also felt the need to comment on her body and style choice.
That hurts my brain... I would say it IS worse than regular cat-calling. It's like both sexualizing and slut shaming at the same time. "It's so sexy you aren't being sexy, unlike those other sluts!"
God, sounds like a threat. He clearly enjoys exerting power over women by making them feel uncomfortable and exposed and unsafe in their own bodies. If he’s thanking her for being modest, it sounds like he’s implying he would have done something MORE egregious had she not been dressed modestly. This is what purity culture does to people who already suck and objectify women - it makes them feel justified
As a man I'm deeply confused by other men's constant knee jerk desire to shout random things at women on the street. I cant ever even imagine commenting on a random woman's outfit as if it were somehow done for my benefit.
Imagine being so privileged that you think that your deity’s top priority is fashion in a world where people are suffering from starvation, disease, and warfare. But of course god is going to take the time every day to instruct you personally on your wardrobe choices. 🙄
Yea they aren't worried about any of the people in Ukraine, or Gaza, or any other place on earth where people are suffering and dying. Their measurement of God's concern is SO distressing and useless for basically everyone, including themselves
I don’t get any of these replies lol. If you need to fix your outfits before you can go help dying kids, isn’t it as simple as going to the mall and buying a couple outfits? How is this more than a day long task?
@@dollinterrupted I agree. Also, aren’t christians all supposed to see themselves as imperfect sinners? Therefore, why should they wait to focus their prayers and charity work , or whatever, on things that really matter. Focusing on fashion and modesty culture as the most significant thing they can do to please their deity is inherently self-serving and shallow. Instead of putting their energy into this performative act of “pleasing god,” shouldn’t they be using their time and excess wealth on helping the less fortunate?
@user-pn5mn6mv3c I’m sorry, but that seems like the very definition of privilege to me. The desire to try to make themselves look like this perfect representation of christianity taking precedence over the reality of true suffering in the world. I’m not saying they don’t see it as privileged. I’m saying that it is, whether they can recognize it or not.
My ex has very large breasts. G cup. She was denied a raise because her shirts were "too revealing". She was literally wearing the same thing as all the other ladies. This purity culture crap makes it into secular society.
@@AW-uv3cb I don't have to imagine. I remember her begging me not to go down there and give her boss a piece of my mind. She was afraid of getting fired and I did respect her wishes but, she quit a few months later as soon as she had a plan in place.
THIS! Idk if it's unique to Mormonism, but growing up we had a saying "modest is hottest". But, if the point of modesty is to not draw attention to yourself, and to not tempt each other with impure thoughts, then how is this saying relevant or helpful? It's all hogwash.
As someone who was extensively shamed for my body in fundamentalism, this video was so cathartic. I'm working hard on deconstructing modesty culture. I had panic attacks for over an hour a few weeks ago, the first time I wore pants in decades. I'm making progress. I'm taking back my autonomy.
I'm proud of you for even trying knowing the panic attacks are-a-coming! I know that praise from an internet weirdo isn't much, but damn it, that takes intestinal fortitude. Now for some unsolicited advice I learned from recovering my sexuality after childhood abuse: if you go through the struggle and realize you hate pants for your own reasons and end up enjoying dressing "modestly" for your own comfort, that's a valid decision too. Pants are unkind in the thigh-chaffing sort of way, and if you end up choosing not to wear them for your own reasons, that's ok too.
Check out the laws that were in effect when those ideas came about. Women were not considered fully human (very much like Black People to justify slavery). That is because Adam was fully made, and Eve just came from part of his body, so she was not created a fully formed human (notwithstanding "Eve" would have been male if made from Adam's rib). You don't need to take back anything because you ALWAYS had it. You never were without it. Unless you are telling me you are a cloned male who was "cut down" into a female and so aren't fully human???? Yeah, that sounds silly to me too. You wear whatever the F you want to wear and what YOU are comfortable with because you are HUMAN. You ROCK the pants.
I have a dear friend who was raised to believe that God would literally strike her dead if she dared to leave her home in shorts or pants. She's been free of her family for nearly 20 years and still fights the toxic messages she grew up with every day
But see, if they acknowledged that that Bible verse is about flaunting wealth instead of showing skin, they'd have to reckon with how they aren't really living the whole "a rich man will never enter the kingdom of heaven" thing
As an exmuslim, I definitely felt when you said if modesty is for men as well, why does it always target women. Same in islam as well. Makes someone realise that it’s just manmade.
@@Reed5016per the doctrine: they must cover from the navel to the knees. But in practice, you'll probably be asked to leave if you go to the mosque without a shirt.
It makes me really sad that videos like that only criticize Christians. Yes, Muslims are more discriminated in society but that doesn’t make their religion less absurd and cruel than Christianity. I really wish people would start doing it without attacking Muslims in general and only criticizing those who spread dangerous ideas, cause unfortunately most of critics of Islam are way too far right.
“How can I get the attention off of me” The first time I was catcalled I wearing a full skirt and a triple oversized hoodie hood up, no makeup Second time I was wearing the same hoodie, a white ball cap, oversized brown cargo full leg pants, no makeup The time I was board line sexually harassed I was wearing a 17 year old winter coat, a beanie hat, black thick pants, no makeup It doesn’t matter, no matter what you do it will never be enough
A man followed me in long thick sweatpants, another touched my ass on the street with wide long pants Its never about clothes, just about controlling women and their bodies
As someone who grew up female and had a curvy body in the Christian church...I can say her ideas are sooo toxic. I was 11 and grown women would call me slurs and acted like I was a "Jezebel" due to my body. So much ignorance around the female body! I was lucky in that my mom did stand up for me and told them I would be allowed to wear fashionable clothes rather than the overly large clothing the church ladies thought I should be wearing. I am now a proud pagan, no longer Christian
I completely understand. The second I hit puberty the bitter old biddies at the church I grew up in got mean and jealous and tried to shame me. When I was 14, one of them called my body pornographic! I really could not help that puberty gave me an hourglass figure. When grown ass men are drooling over a 14 year old, it is never the 14 year old's fault.
Purity culture was so wild. I don’t get how these people care so much about what other people put on their bodies. I’m glad you’re mom let you dress the way you wanted though.
My grandma called me a slur when I was like 12 for wearing a tank top and shorts as PJs in the privacy of my own home. My mom was also in my corner about that, she laid into my grandma about that. Also my curves hadn't even come in at that point. Children are so sexualized, it disgusts me.
I'm a christian, but I just don't agree with some of the things other christians believe in. Like for example calling someone a 'jezebel' like you said. That term is thrown around so much and if I were a unbeliever and a christian came up to me saying I was a jezebel for wearing sexy clothes I probably wouldn't want to talk to them.
I’ve met dudes who were legitimately turned on by formless dresses or sneakers - so if the goal was to make sure we didn’t cause our “brothers” to stumble, we quite literally would never reach that goal.
I honestly don't understand why dresses/skirts are seen as more modest. I kinda see them as "easy access" clothes, like I remember as a teen wearing a dress when my bf came over because we wanted to have sex without taking of our clothes (incase my parents knocked on the door of something) LIke you have to take of your pants fully to have sex but you can just lift up a skirt. Modest is so often used as less sexual this makes no sense to me
@@jeannerogers7085 I hope you are sarcastic about the 'superior' roe of the pants wearer. Since in Biblical times the men wore tunics not pants.... So if trying to be authentic all the good Christian men should be in skirts / dresses
Right, unless you are rocking like Pentecostal-floor-length style skirt it really doesn't make sense. I wore a skirt to school only once because the day I did a boy tried to look up it. They are easy to "hike" up and if they are flowy you risk showing way more leg than you want to. So much of "modesty" advice feels like a weird conspiracy from men to make women look more traditional than "modest."
Connecting the idea of modesty to having a gentle and quiet spirit seems to be very common. I went to a church that twisted that idea into meaning women shouldn’t draw attention to themselves at all especially by dressing “provocatively” even though they meant in anything that the pastor saw as immodest which was anything! I was told I had too much cleavage after having a baby and I needed to breastfeed, the pastor said I was distracting him from the pulpit…what?! Anyone who knows me knows I have never even worn swimsuits because of insecurities these kinds of teachings instilled in me. It’s disgusting! Anything can be deemed inappropriate because all men have their own preferences.
Literally this. Lauren Daigle wore a crop top in one of her videos where you could see a small sliver of her stomach. A Christian guy commented saying that as his sister in Christ, Lauren had an obligation to dress modestly because she was tempting him. I told him that if Lauren's stomach was tempting him, he needed to stop looking. In addition, he was blaming her for his lust problem and Scripture says that it's the man's responsibility to deal with that. Men need to stop blaming women for their moral failures and struggles.
I always love these christian women who say 'we need to be set apart from the world in our dress' wearing the exact things you'd imagine the average mother to wear. Somehow that's setting yourself apart and not being a stumbling block to men. I'd say my method of wearing men's clothes and shaving my hair is a way better way to both stand out and make yourself less appealing to men! at least that's my aim with it!
It's almost funny the sheer mental gymnastics they have to go through to avoid admitting there is no way a woman can dress that is guaranteed to be unappealing to every man out there. Heck, even the shaved head and masc clothes? There are guys who have a thing for Ellen Ripley and Furiosa, you know there are.
@@keltai83 its not about making ourselves unappealing...it is about not outwardly trying to seduce a man which is completely different from just looking attractive
There seems to be a pattern of many of these evangelical Christian’s being uncomfortable using words like “modesty” or “purity culture” because they don’t like the negative connotation… but then they continue to say the exact same things. Like dressing it up with a different word or being “uncomfortable” with it doesn’t change your message
The reason is that evangelical Christians have a bad habit of ascribing intentions and motivations to people who take any umbrage to the concepts of Christian modesty or purity culture. People who call out those terms correctly identify the actual teachings of modest and purity culture as toxic, controlling, and abusive, inherently. Those things are, in and of themselves, bad. However, because those concepts are a core part of evangelical fundamentalist beliefs, those things - those concepts themselves - cannot be called bad. Therefore, because those concepts cant be bad, the people who don’t like those words can’t be reacting to those concepts, they’re reacting to something else. Those people must be reacting to the way those words have been misused. Those people must not actually understand what those concepts are. Those people might actually even be just immoral sinners who are maligning those concepts because of their ignorance, or their sin. The concepts are core, and they cannot be wrong. But fundamentalist evangelical Christians NEED to talk about these concepts. To reconcile this, they MUST believe that people are USING THE WORDS WRONG, and THAT is why people take issue with them, and THAT is why Christians are uncomfortable with using certain words. It’s not because they actually are uncomfortable with those concepts in the way they are presented. It’s because they CANNOT accept someone else’s intentions and experiences when they disagree with their Christian worldview. Source: a 31 year old who has grown up in evangelical Christianity; has been deconstructing many aspects of my faith for many, many, years; and who has had a recent falling out with his parents because they refused to believe that the issues I had with the high control family environment I grew up in could have been caused in part or whole by them, so they instead chose to attribute the problems I was having, and ways I was acting out, to whatever sin they repeatedly assumed I had, and actively sought to uncover whenever they felt “convicted” that something was wrong in my life. And people who are convinced that something is wrong will always find what they’re looking for, regardless of whether they’re justified or not, and no matter the consequences.
@@ATTACKofthe6STRINGS Yes, this. I was fortunately raised in a liberal stream of Christianity but I have read so many accounts from people who have encountered or escaped from fundamentalist streams of religion and that seems to be an underlying problem. "It's not that we're wrong, it's just that you don't understand."
My boyfriend, who was not raised in the church, has expressed that he finds long skirts and turtlenecks as super sexy and hot. It "leaves more to the imagination." he said. Crazy bc a church lady talking to me about modesty said the exact same thing. So how the hell is a 'modest women' to dress? Because according to "leave more to the imagination," a woman can make men 'stumble' as well.
This is damaging to men too. It assumes that men are these slobbering goblins who have no control over themselves. It assumes if a man does something bad it's not because he's just a shit person but he was driven to it by other people or external pressures. It almost gives a blanket immunity to men because we're too simple and stupid to do anything by our own will, we're just caught in the wake of someone else and it's really their fault men keep fucking up. It's just damaging all over everyone and everything and fundamentalists really need to knock this shit off.
A friend of mine recently said the same thing to me! We were talking about the idea of modesty and he said that he finds modest clothes to be really sexy, so if people dress that way for themselves that’s great, but if they’re doing it with the express intent of not having people find it sexy, it ain’t gonna work.
Its so wild to hear someone claim an attempt to divert physical attention while in makeup, with their hair styled and dyed, wearing the TIGHTEST turtleneck. Delusion must be on sale
They are supposed to draw attention away from the body and to the "countenance", but some also don't allow makeup or jewelry. I'm curious how she justifies the amount of makeup she wears. She has a "natural" look here, but it takes several products to get that look.
@@christiecruzxo2841Genuine question: how can you tell that she has extensions? What do you look for to tell the difference between extensions and natural length/volume?
It makes me feel really sad to hear a woman talk about how she believes women think of each other as competition first and can only be friends if someone doesn't seem "threatening" to them. Also, what threat is she referring to, exactly? The threat of stealing male attention? That's a genuine question. I truly don't know what she finds or believes others find threatening about a woman who is dressed in a way she doesn't approve of.
Yes, I don't relate to that at all either. All the women in my life are so supportive of each other, hell I've had so many situations when literal strange women go out of their way to say something nice about your look (and I also do it with other women too). Women tend to be incredibly supportive of each other. This competitive thing is just not real, and if it is, it's only among the type of women I have no interest in hanging out with anyway because they're simply not very nice people.
In fundamentalist circles, men are the providers, and thus control the money, shelter and resources. Fundamentalist women are therefore forced to compete with each other for access to these things. Of course once the woman is "trapped" she is obligated to care for the man's home and parent the offspring while he goes off and does whatever. This is what men, in general, want, but can't enforce in a secular society where women have rights.
I'm someone who just has a modest fashion sense, not because I'm at all religious but because I just generally feel more comfortable covered up and I just like more grandma-type styles. That said, it's very interesting to listen to people who are modest for religious reasons, because their focus is still very heavily on how other people see them and not on the joy of the clothing they're wearing. I love the clothes I wear. I sew stuff and I'm getting good at curating the shapes and fabrics I love best. None of these people seem to derive joy from the clothing itself and instead want people to "focus on their smile instead". I actually do want people to focus on my clothing, cuz it looks nice! People should look more at what I'm wearing and less at my face, actually, because I get to choose what I wear. I didn't get to choose my face.
That’s so cool. I wish I could sew. Because I’m short, a lot of clothes from stores don’t really fit me that well. So if I could make my own clothes, it would be awesome. I could also make a lot of androgynous clothes that fit the style I like. I have a lot of ideas of what I want to wear and how I want it to fit. But it’s hard for me to find what I like in stores.
@@Reed5016 I would encourage you to start sewing if you want to! It's not super hard, just don't go for commercial patterns because those expect an intermediate level of sewing. Instead start with simple clothing, a gathered skirt, a straight top, etc. Most sewing classes start with things like potholders, which is nice to get the basics, but also is super boring to me and results in something I won't really use. So my tip would be to start with really simple garments that you will actually wear. I don't know if the channel still exists, but Annika Victoria used to post videos about simple clothing and beginner friendly projects.
Same. I wear a lot of circle skirts that are tea length or floor length. Not because I care about modesty or whatever, but because I like skirts. I like the swish, I like picking my own fabrics in colours that I know will suit me and complement my wardrobe. I like wearing vaguely historical costume inspired things, for me because I like them. It feels kind of presumptuous if other people assume I wear something because of other people and what they think.
“I’m not going to judge you or tell you what to do, but I’m going to make this whole video judging you and telling you what to do” lol that’s literally the epitome of the evangelical church if I’ve ever seen it 😂
Back in my christian college days, I had quite a few conversations with guys who did not like the idea that they had no control over their own thoughts. It was THEIR responsibility to look away or otherwise manage themselves.
Yes, I resent the idea that men are helpless animals whose urges are uncontrollable. Feelings and urges may have lives of their own, but I control whether I act on them.
If I was a man and it was implied that I have no control over my actions and thought just because a woman is wearing a tank top, I'd be offended too. Seems like I have a much better opinion of men in general than some of these churches!
The thing is, when has there been a concerted effort amongst the XYs in history to actively discipline their thoughts and urges? Hormones are definitely a real thing, for sure, and the journey to mastery will be difficult, but effin DO IT! For women and children's sake, Lord
Grew up from evangelical parents. Part of why I became an atheist is because I was SA'd in "modest" clothing. The shame that I felt was an absolute nightmare. Screw "modesty" culture and the people who perpetuate it.
I find it so confusing that she wants to dress feminine, but not in a way she deems sexually. She definitely looks feminine and the way she looks is definitely considered conventionally pretty. But isn't that going to make men lust after her anyway? It's not like men only lust after you if you show skin. Men are not that one-dimensional. And I agree, that's not her responsibility, she can dress however she want. But I don't understand why she doesn't see how the way she presents will still attract other men than her husband. Also, I feel so sad for her that she feels uncomfortable nowadays when she's showing her belly....
Honestly, when I still identified as a woman, I was a masc woman in regards to my style. And I still got cat-called by men. I don’t think it really matters how someone presents themselves. Creepy people will be creepy no matter what.
The only way women will really seem to get guys to finally stop their shit is to be 6' or over with a face as you walk down the way that says "touch me and I'll mess you up". I had this in high school, and believe me, no one approached me. Used to make me lonely. Now? So glad I have that. But the most flattering, sexy, and super intimidating thing women can have is confidence and self-defense.
Are u slow? Dressing modesty doesn't equal dressing to look like Shrek. U can dress modestly and still want to be pretty. You think modesty is ugly that's why you are confused as to why she still wants to be pretty as well as modest
Right?! It's infantilizing and quite frankly creepy and aggravating. It's like we're all children and it makes me so angry, like, my friend is 23 years old but women in the church talk to her like she's 9. It drives the two of us crazy.
The irony of the upside down cross is that it dates from the alleged death of St Peter, crucified upside down. I have encountered various (usually Catholic) churches named St Peter that have the upside down cross as part of their church logo, or part of the gates and fence.
It's also linked to Satanism (and I mean the actual religion). LaVey wanted people to wear whatever they wanted and if they felt like using the cross because it has that meaning to them, they could. So it's one of their official symbols
Feeling guilty for not feeling guilty enough is such a good way to phrase it. I didn’t really experience that with modesty specifically, but I did with my sexuality. For me, that phase of feeling like I should feel bad was just a step to full acceptance of myself. She seems to have worked backwards into forcing herself to feel guilt for real.
Kind of sad with 'dressing for women so they do not view me as a threat', like... Does she have friends?? I'd understand if not, she sounds insufferable.
I've never understood how other women would be rivals. Like it's an alien concept, and I know it exists and that other people may think that way. It's just fun to be bisexual and neurodivergent I guess.
I'm neurodivergent and pansexual, I've neverthought "oh no, a competing female!" like it's giving incel vibes, it's giving 'main character villain'-vibes 🙈. All my friendships with other women and nonbinaries are building me up and supporting me, don't think she has the same 😬@@elainelouve
I completely agree with you. Women should never be responsible for controlling men’s thoughts. They should control themselves! My husband got really upset with me about 15 years ago, when my boys were in Cub Scouts. He overheard the Cub Master telling someone else that he had to avoid he had feelings about me (I had no idea up to that point). I told him to talk to HIM and not me because the feelings were not mutual. Ugh.
Girl preach. I was also the curvy girl (similar to the Jessica rabbit curves) and it was so annoying seeing other girls wearing cute outfits and me not being able to. She pissed me off when she brought that whole "oh some women can get away with it and some can't) 🤦🏽♀️
Yes, especially the way she phrased it like getting away with something. Getting away with what? oH i dOnT fOrCE AnYoNe tO be mOdESt, i JuSt pHrAsE sHoWInG SomE clEaVAgE liKe a FcKinG CriMe
The inherent sexualization of curves is so messed up to me. I saw a tiktok the other day of a teacher showing off her teacher outfits. She would wear slacks with nice blouses, all things perfectly appropriate and within the dress code for a teacher but... she had a butt. The comment section was filled with people saying how inappropriate her outfits were and how horrible she was for dressing sexually for her job. I've felt this way too. I have a booty, I can't help it. It looks especially good in business slacks... so what am I supposed to do when clothing made to look professional are suddenly sexual because it's on my body? You can't win and you never will if the vesal you came in is what people find inappropriate.
The victim-blaming mentality of asking survivors of SA, "What were you wearing?" needs to stop now. In almost all cases, the victim was wearing regular clothes, and research has found that clothing has nothing to do with the motivation of the assailant. These crimes only happen because someone wanted to commit them. Why is it not the responsibility of men to control themselves or mind their own business?
Because it's so much easier to blame the victim instead of addressing the larger problem; abusers feeling entitled to women, seeing women as less than, and seeing women as things rather than people.
I mean, according to the Bible, women are property, with rules for sale and punishments equal to property crime for violating a woman. Want a wife? Grab a couple handfuls of shekels, commit noncon, and pay her dad. Bam! Got a wife.
I went to an all-women exercise class, because the area I lived in was predominantly Muslim. Not one of the ladies there was this hung up about putting on leggings and taking off their veils and hijabs. We even had an end of year BBQ on a quiet beach and most of them had their hair out and wore leggings so we could play volleyball and go into the water comfortably. I can't imagine being so particular in trying to control how men view you through your clothing, let alone a group of women who are around you for the sole purpose of working out and possibly socialising a bit while doing so.
32:33 THIS. As soon as I started getting busty in MIDDLE SCHOOL my family members would tell me how "happy they would make my future husband"... It grossed me the fuck out... I hated it and it made me feel shameful more than anything else.
Same. As a kid, I would always be so uncomfortable when adults tried to pair me up romantically with someone. Even if it's just a joke, kids aren't thinking about relationships, they just wanna play. That made me so uncomfortable, because I didn't wanna be sexualized I would always numb my feelings when I thought I had a crush on someone, even as older
@@ArtificialSuicidmy mom’s best friend had a son a month before I was born so we grew up with our parents joking we were arranged to be married. That was until I got fat in middle school. Then it was how dare you view my son that way. I remember so vividly one Christmas I had a late lunch and wasn’t hungry by the time we went to their house. I was called disgusting for not wanting to eat in front of her son because “I liked him.” Not for one second did she consider I might genuinely not be hungry. It was such a weird mixture of sexualizing a childhood friendship and also body shaming me bc I was no longer pretty enough for her or her son. Gross behavior.
@mermaidcatching I'm so sorry you had to go through that, nor you or your friend deserved that. I hope future generations will learn how this behaviour plays a role in sexualising kids + imposes heterosexuality and stop this. I hope you're able to heal, have regular crushs and friendships. I've been body shamed too as a kid, I'd always be compared to my cousins and my mom and aunties would always talk about how they were prettier than me and looked better in certain clothing because they were thinner. That sucked, I get how you feel 🫶
Good for her, I don't really see how it is more creative. I put a tank top under a deep cut shirt when I don't feel comfortable without it and don't think of it as being creative. To me its the same as putting on a cardigan when its cold.
As a curvy, busty woman who was a curvy, busty teen, modesty culture was so damaging. Especially seeing normal clothes that other girls could wear without comment and then wearing something the same or similar and being told that I'm causing others to stumble, when I'm just trying to be comfortable and live my life, was so damaging. The process of stopping caring and wearing what I felt like wearing without it being a 20 minute internal debate was so freeing.
To me the whole skirt requirement in Fundie circles has always been so confusing because it's in no way related to scripture but treated like some deeply spiritual rule when I feel less protected in a skirt than I do in pants. The whole idea of women wearing skirts and men wearing pants is a pretty modern gender convention and I don't see how "biblical scholars" "skirt" around that fact.
Modesty is the weirdest thing to me. Like in high school I played tennis and the 6-7 of us on the team at a time werent allowed to wear our uniforms to school, while cheerleaders (who wore less fabric and outnumbered us 3-1) were encouraged to.
I remember my high school’s cheerleading uniform was shorter than the dress code allowed, but the girls were still expected to wear it to class. It’s all so ridiculous.
My problem with modesty is that they forget that Adam and Eve, before sin entered the world were naked!!! Promoting shame is not biblical at all! Shame comes only from the devil.
Shame only comes from social pressure/being taught it. The only shoulds and shouldn'ts come from human expectations, and so are social constructions. And shame comes from crossing those constructed lines.
If you believe that Adam and Eve existed you should also believe that they were ashamed of being naked immediately after eating a fruit. So your comment makes no sense. The story of A&E also doesn't make sense by the way.
I can’t say that i understand the idea of modesty too too well. Is putting yourself out there on social media modest? Is tight clothing modest if it covers arms legs and chest? Makeup? Doing your hair (braiding, curling, etc)? What about just combing your hair? Hygiene in general? Is existing immodest? Who gets to decide? I don’t get it
Women arent to be on social media, wear make up, styling their hair, speaking, laughing, smiling in public, or showing of their body. This is bibilcal. Existing however seems also to be immodest as many men wish women didnt exist.
Agree. The issue of not drawing attention to one's self. Like the trad wife influencers who promote submissive stay at home wives/motherhood / women shouldn't speak or teach.... whilst also being figureheads in their communities through speaking and preaching to men and women. And making that influencer told an income.
Yes, there seems to be a lack of definition for modesty. The lack of it makes it even weirder that she combines thoughts of modest clothing with trying to not be of the world. Like Taylor said, nothing about Melina appears as non-worldly. She seems so carefully put together, with a lot of mental space going into her outfit, make up and hair routine and in the background you can see her trendy furnishings. She definitely tries to appear attractive and beautiful. I think she's very delulu.
This wasn't mentioned in the original video or the the critique, but i think its important to call attention to the double standard that some evangelical people tend to impose on modesty as interpreted through other faiths. Head coverings are part of Christian religious practices, for nuns for instance, I was once invited to a mass where as a woman, i had to wear a veil in church. I wonder what she thinks about that "flavour" of modesty as compared to a hijab or a shpitzel. Is modesty, writ large "good" in and of itself, or is there a "wong" way to be modest. Food for thought Ps: As always love your videos! Thanks for bringing nuance to a complext subject! Love the upside-down crosses! :)
I was just about to make this comment myself! You just worded it much better than I would have done😅. I was thinking: if a woman with a head scarf was making this exact video and quoting the Quran in stead of the Bible....
Let's start at the top of her head. She obviously spends a fair amount of time and money on her hair, her makeup and nails. She caresses and flips her hair incessantly drawing attention to her enhanced self. That is not biblical modesty and if I believed in a supreme maker I imagine he'd be more than a little pissed that she feels the need to improve on his work. 🤯
The more I listen to people like this, the more I am convinced that this slow erosion of identity and constant fretful self-analysis and hyper-focus on appearance is engineered to keep women too anxious to have independent thoughts, all while couching it as femininity and modesty.
Reminder my friends: Being “of the world” means being a greedy capitalist, racist, homophobic, etc. That does NOT include how you dress or how you present or your how your body looks.
I wouldn't say it causes kids to want to do the opposite, so much as it keeps a constant focus on it all of the time. That's going to manifest in different ways for different people. Some will become petrified of being immodest, while others will perhaps rebel. I'd imagine there's a spectrum there, but the connection is an incredibly unhealthy concern about modesty being drilled into someone's head constantly.
Hot take, she has a post pregnancy body now, and instead of working on self esteem issues that may have come up due to natural, beautiful changes postpartum, she's using a move toward modesty as a smokescreen and a religious/pious explanation for covering up
I personally wear very modest clothing, but it isn't because of my religion (as I'm an atheist) For me, modesty brings comfort and safety, but that's just how it feels to me. I would NEVER tell someone else how to dress, though. You wear a dress? Great! You wear a tank top and shorts? Also great! Dress what makes you feel the most comfortable! Just be yourself darlings!
I'm so sad that there are thousands of people in the world who really believe that in order to please their Divinity more, they have to dress up from head to toe. The reference to her children who would have taken her as a model and not wanting to show them "skin" demoralized me. I was a daughter and I am a mother and I can assure the girl in the video that neither I towards my mother, nor my son towards me, have ever emphasized a cleavage. I was in my mother's arms, thinking about her love, not her cleavage. These people are dangerous and it is even more dangerous that girls are not taught that no one owns their bodies or their thoughts. Thank you for the video and the care you put into it.
I watch videos like these and am reminded of how utterly exhausting it was to be an evangelical. During the time i was a christian, all of this was so normal to me; feeling convicted and guilty, or not guilty enough about so many absurd things. I didn't realize how unhappy i was until i washed my hands of it all.
This makes me think of the display of clothes people were wearing when they were SA'ed. There's everything there from very modest pajama sets to jeans and a T-shirt to club wear. SA has nothing to do with what a person is wearing. The modesty movement may have tried to change their words to be less confrontational and offensive, but the message remains the same.
As a Christian, I was hoping to share my thoughts on this. I don’t think we can accurately judge someone’s modesty because we don’t know their heart. If a girl is wearing a crop top she thinks is cute is she less Christian than a girl who wears a poodle skirt that spent hours planning the outfit wondering what others would think of her? I would argue the girl who grabbed a crop top without thinking is actually better because she did not pick her outfit obsessing over what would be pleasing to others. She just thought it was cute and grabbed it-no ulterior motives. The reality is that what is “modest” shifts with time and culture. I would never put down another Christian because of what she wears. ALSO, the woman in the video has clearly invested a lot into her appearance: expensive clothes/jewelry, expensive hair, expensive makeup. I mean to me that’s equally as “bad” as showing a lot of skin-both are done to gain others attention/approval. Of course, I think she’s beautiful and these things don’t make you a bad Christian but if you’re going to make a video about modesty recognize it isn’t just about clothing. It just seems kind of ignorant.
I struggle to understand how people who are this deluded can function in day to day life. If a minor thing like wearing a comfortable shirt is a cause for an existential crisis, what does the rest of a day, week, month, year, look like?
Didn’t finish the video yet but the way she literally self shamed and asked to feel ashamed about herself is so sad and depressingly speaks about how she views her own religion ☠️
I hate modesty and purity culture so much. I'll probably never be free of their effects. As an adolescent, i was absurdly modest, wearing baggy clothes and refusing to wear makeup or paint my nails or do anything "girly". It wasn't out of 'holiness,' it was because I was always way too able to put two and two together. I saw all the victim-blaming happening in response to SA and lived in absolute terror that if I dressed immodestly, I'd be SA'd. I'm doing better than I was, but I still struggle sometimes.
Watching Milena slide further and further into fundamentalism has been sad. She was always Christian, but it was a facet of her and not her entire personality. She was cute and normal and not talking about submitting to your husband and instilling ~character qualities~. It seems the more kids she has the more radical she becomes.
@@tiziay I never watched her super regularly. I was subscribed but I would mostly only watch her outfit videos. I unsubscribed around the time she had her first baby because I’m child free and don’t really have an interest in watching family content. I’ve kept up here and there with her through Reddit and occasionally checking her channel out of morbid curiosity, but she’s really like night and day. In terms of personality and dress. She was Christian and believed in modesty, but she had a spark to her, a sense of humor. You could still see that version of her going out with her girlfriends for a tipsy brunch. Now she just seems so dour and joyless and strict about everything like she believes she has to suffer for her life to mean something. I feel bad for her because it’s like she’s squashing herself down to fit this small worldview. But I also don’t want to let her off the hook because she’s got some problematic beliefs. I just feel a twinge of sympathy for any woman trapped in this patriarchal bubble.
Radical?! You liked her when her beliefs were just in her heart and didn’t “show through” . She’s literally following the Bible which she believes is the truth. When muslim women do y’all respect it and stay quiet. If Christian women do they’re radical?? What’s radical about putting your family first, wanting to be a good Wife and wanting your husband to lead and provide and dress modesty?! How is this radical?! How?! 😂 You wanna know why she’s more Christian now? Because our culture has become more liberal and more insane we can’t even define what a woman is. Christians are insulted and shamed in the public space , housewives are also ashamed, to be a right wing is to be a fascist now, pronouns, onlyfans going mainstream, political divide for the smallest things and overall sense of “things are going downhill” and is true, the Left is destructive our culture that they see as misogynistic, racist, transphobic, colonialist, anti Christian, amoral and anti family and anti men, white etc.
"Do I feel adequately filled with shame today?? In what way could I possibly be more racked with guilt, in order to please my 'kind and loving' god...?? Jesus show me the way...!!"
What must it be like to exist in a non-sexualized body? I didn't even grow up in a fundie or religious home, but modesty and purity culture were pervasive. I am in my late 30s and still feel a deep discomfort/fear wearing a skirt above my knees that was put into me by middle school dress codes and abstinence-only sex ed programs (which were definitely fundie-led and still the basis for the public school curriculum because Indiana sucks that way).
I grew up orthodox jewish and this really resonates with what we were taught about modesty. Fundamentalism looks so similar between religions. Control is control
13:35 It’s true. The worst time I was sexually harassed, I was picking up a carryout pizza wearing an oversize turtleneck sweater - it was a grandma outfit. A guy said something to me about making his balls feel good and this huge group of men he was in all chimed in and laughed as if it’s normal to talk to a random girl like that. I was 19 and I was so blindsided and shocked that I just kept walking and said nothing. That’s when I learned plain and simple that it can’t be avoided by what you wear.
Here's the paradox: If modest is the hottest, and "hot" is sinful, shouldn't you be dressing as slutty as possible, as this is less hot and thus less sinful? (This comment may contain traces of sarcasm)
As a Christian, modesty culture always rubbed me the wrong way. I try to dress modestly but it never feels like enough. I’ve been catcalled and creeped on MORE when I have dressed modestly compared to when I wear like a crop top or leggings.
As a recent atheist and longtime metalhead, I now watch your videos to see the cool metal shirts you wear with the added benefit of some social commentary
YES! Lol, same here! (Except, while I've been an atheist since 2019, I unfortunately only discovered/fell in love with metal a couple of years ago; but I'm making up for lost time as voraciously as I can). So much metal, so little time... 😂💛
The victim blaming is strong even in the catholic church. I left religion a few years ago but the work I have to do every day to not feel shame for being myself is really hard, and I still struggle with a lot of guilt. I always dressed modestly, but the few times a little skin was uncovered (I'm talking an inch of skin showing under the neck, not even shoulders uncovered in church, which are really frowned upon, especially in Italy where I come from) I've had humiliating exchanges with my parents, family members, even nuns DURING mass. My Sunday school teachers (who were no more than 8-15 years older than me) were teaching us that if a man lusts over a woman it's her sin too, and she should confess it. I remember thinking "how the hell would I know??" but then going back home with extra anxiety because of it. Religion is made to control people, render them insecure in order to gain power.
I lived in saudi Arabia, to the people there "western modesty" is still dressing like a "wh**e" so thats that. I got called this for beeing tall, but I was fully covered otherwise black long dress, gloves, headscarf, face covering, but my figure is just tall and skinny with curves, so that will always be visible.
This mindset is wild. The whole “How can I get people to not look at me in a sexual way?” Thing is eeesh 😬 Babe, you can’t control what other people think about you.
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. -1 Corinthians 2:14
10:20 “LORD, convict me“ sounds like Christianese for “Please make me feel bad and ashamed about something i actually feel good/neutral about.“ Hmm. Feels sad to me.
Reflections: I’m surprised to hear her say that there is “no judgment or shame” for doing something “different than she’s doing” because in my evangelical circles there WAS judgment and shame dealt out, ranging from passive aggressive remarks to outright criticisms. Still, like you said, the shame is implied. A good reminder that “disclaimers” don’t work if they are in conflict with our main message. 😅
The idea of what you may see as a hint of versus what is visible can be very different in attraction. Compare to horror/thriller films - some are full on gore, others only suggest it, but can be more powerful for what is left to the imagination. When males are only around ankle length skirts then an ankle becomes a taste of what else exists. 'a glimpse of stocking is something shocking' as Sinatra sang....
This reminds me of the argument that women wear makeup for men. Like, no. I wear makeup to make myself happy. If anything, I’m wearing makeup to impress other women. Why do men have to be part of the conversation at all?
My thoughts on that are a bit mixed up. I do usually tend to wear light make up (mascara, a dash of foundation on my cheeks, plus a bit of powder and rouge)... I don't think of it as "I do it so men like me", but I definitely do it because I'm a bit insecure about my skin imperfections... (I also put it on when I'm seeing my female friends, but I don't do it if I'm not going out. I do put on my earrings and sometimes even perfume when I work from home, though, so clearly THIS is something that I do purely to make myself happy, but make-up is connected to how I want to be perceived by others). So even if it's not directly about being attractive to men, it is at least partially motivated by societal standards of pretty, and those in turn are affected by what men find attractive. So no, it's not all about men... but it's a little bit about them too, I guess? I think if I wore heavier make up with colourful eyes etc (which, btw, I love on other women), I'd also see it as more of a means of self-expression, but the way I do it - yeah, there's a degree of a self-confidence boost and being happy about myself, but there's also a degree of insecurity (because why do I feel more confident with my natural skin evened out by make-up in the first place?). I always think make-up is an altogether more complex issue than just "oh it's all about appealing to men" vs "oh no I only do it for myself", with most women caught up somewhere in between, and so many personal and societal and economical aspects tied into it too. But I guess I'm rambling a bit here, haha...
True. I wear makeup to look more fresh and less tired. So I mostly do that for work, so I guess I use makeup mainly for clients. Might be just to look more fresh on other occasions too.
Well it’s absolutely something set up by men and part of a system that punished women for not doing so. I have never felt comfortable wearing makeup and have heard from multiple people including women that they wont hire women who don’t wear it. Men being a part of the convo surrounding it makes sense considering they don’t have to wear it at all, but we do.
You wear makeup for validation, how’s wearing mkup for women any better? You care about what others think and you definitely care what the guys you find attractive think about you IN GENERAL, even the way you behave. You’re jus fooling yourself witj femimist nonsense
31:08 I was already busty by middle school and because I also grew up with "modesty culture" I HATED my bust SO much... I hated shopping for clothes because I felt I had to shop in the women's sections and not sections actually made for me, a middle-schooler. ☹️
Oh, yeah - The modesty culture and body type issues were so frustrating for me too. I dressed like an adult because that’s what I was bought. I looked 20 at 12, and I ended up getting hit on by grown men in religious adjacent environments and bullied at school.
The whole “not of the world” thing is nuts to me because, no matter what you wear, you are engaging in something of the world because all clothing is made by people of the world, from raw materials of the world, and comes from all over the world in a globalized fashion industry. Even if she were to make her own clothes, the textiles were made by the world - if she were to weave her own fabric, those techniques come from the history of our world and the people all over the world. Fashion and clothing IS of this world no matter how you look at it
This, but even without going so deep into it - the whole "not of the world" spiel coming from a woman with obviously dyed and styled hair, darkened and styled eyebrows and a full make-up on her face, plus a full manicure (all of which takes time and money and all of which clearly conforms to a narrow "worldly" standard of beauty) is so hypocritical. Please don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there's anything bad about any of those things as such. It's just the audacity of saying that you're not worldly and don't dress to attract admiration, just because you go for a different type of clothing, meanwhile everything else about you conforms to the "worldly" standard to a tee... How conceited and fake.
I live in NE Ohio pretty close to Lake Errie. We have BRUTAL winters, so everyone is in parkas, hoodies, hats, boots, jeans- just covered head to toe. Hasn't stopped men from hitting on or cat calling me. This also happens at work. I'm a nursing assistant on a med surge floor in a hospital. I'll be in my scrubs that probably have C Diff poop on them. Doesn't stop men from oggling. It's so ridiculas to pretend that just putting cloth over your skin stops men from objectifying or lusting after women. I feel like I get the same weirdness whether I'm in a parka or a crop top. The only difference is that in the crop top it's somehow more my fault then the parka.
10:00 - 10:10 listening to this is so, so sad.. and I'm sad for her and all the other woman, evangelic or not, who end up falling for this type of lies. who shame themselves for being human and living life.
I agree. A woman openly stating that her role as a mother "should" affect her in an area that doesn't affect her children is something I generally dislike and her genuinly believing that her feeling bad and shameful would be right and good, that's devastating.
Aside from the fact that it's terrible that she's propagating this on the Internet where vulnerable young women are going to watch it. But also it's really sad that she is so worried about even a single thought.
Two things that come to mind whenever I think about Modesty as a topic: The interview with Barlow Girl about "wearing 5 tank tops and long sleeved shirts and scarves to cover necks" and taking them as inspiration as a kid which led to a lot of instances where I almost fainted so please don't follow their advice and also rid yourself of that sunlight on your body. But also... The Victorian/Edwardian era clothing exists... So they could literally just go vintage. If they want to wear layers upon layers upon layers, they may as well do it the proper way! That's my 2 cents NO WAIT I HAVE ANOTHER CENT TO THROW NOW! OMG 19:51 I'm a little sorry to say this, but this grinds my gears all the time and did ever since childhood. Saying this is privilege from having an average looking/skinny body. I have 2 sacks of useless meat that are both larger than my head. There is no way to make myself modest enough to not be noticeable. There is no way to not have that attention there no matter what I do. Being able to make the rest of your body "unnoticeable" so your face "shines more" is skinny privilege. Growing up and being told to constantly cover up? How much more? I'm already wearing baggy tshirts and mens hoodies and turtlenecks and compression bras and make myself look drab. How much more would it take to meet that level of requirement that I will never be...
![ค้าง (STILL) - GEMINI [ OFFICIAL MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ftxx3hk5vkU/mqdefault.jpg)
She felt shame for not feeling shame about her clothes, so she prayed for shame and was happy when she felt shame about her clothes. Got it.
This is so apt and perfectly captures where my brain paused. 😅
Now...when you put it in that way it's...awful😭😂 You're not wrong.
How much wood could a Woodchuck chuck if a Woodchuck could chuck wood.
Kinda sounds like that.
Maybe How much Shame could a Shamecuck Shame if a Shamecuck could cuck Shame. You can replace the C with an F if you want.
And now she doesn't want us to feel shame but if we're not feeling shame we should feel shame about that.
Shame and guilt make it easier for others to manipulate and make you do things you wouldn't do any other way. You can change your mind on any subject if you push yourself and your mind. The true shame of this is she used this ability to gaslight herself into hating her body.
Bros be forgetting that Jesus literally said if you’re lusting after a woman, that’s not on her and _you_ should pluck your eyes out instead
No no, see, that part was a metaphor.
@@iluvtacos1231 For sure, this is clearly an instance in which small-minded atheists aren't rightly dividing the word.
@@iluvtacos1231Indeed.
There is nothing dirty and lustfull in someone's body the dirty and lustfull thing is in someone's mind
@@olgakoukouftopoulou3544That’s actually addressed in following scriptures lol
Imagine having to “work through” if it’s okay to wear jeans. This lifestyle sounds exhausting.
And how much time should you have... I doubt she would have capacity to think about fancy modest outfits going to sixth 12 hour shift of the week
Yeah sometimes they think jeans make women look unprofessional I seen a snooty old man make a comment with his wife the other day saying how that looks so unprofessional for me to be wearing jeans no it doesn't actually because some companies allow jeans it makes women feel more comfortable to work in it.
Trying to re build a shelf or scan inventory actually looks ridiculous in slacks because if your working in slacks it means you have some sort of high powered job, jeans says you might be a grocery clerk or waitress. I'm all for modesty in places of business but not on my day off.
I feel like some women that are fully grown earned the right to not be modest on there day off because they work hard all week in jeans and in the heat of the summer it's kind of rude just to expect them to be modest at a beach or a gym some of these places require less clothing in order to achieve all your fitness goals..if women really were the less attractive gender they wouldn't be asking us to cover up.
They want to hide God's creations and if you still have the body to wear that kind of stuff feel free to wear it because it be funny for a social experiment to see how all the men react some of them might not even hurt you they will be shocked because some of them may not have seen a woman in years.
this is how you know they are so out of touch with the real world lol like people have jobs
It really is. I’m so relieved to be out of it. And women criticize other women if they think the cut of someone’s modest dress is not modest enough or if their bra isn’t thick enough and its cold. My old pastor’s wife was a christian mean girl.
It is, and designed to be that way. If one is constantly concerned about showing oneself improperly, that results in constant anxiety, throwing a person off balance and more easily controlled; "modesty" is also a distraction from thinking about things that actually matter in life.
My sister recently got catcalled for dressing "modestly." Some guy yelled out his truck window at her "thank you for dressing modestly!" She told me she felt it was more insulting than "regular" catcalling. The irony of this was clearly lost on him that he implied she was dressing modestly to avert the male gaze and also felt the need to comment on her body and style choice.
That hurts my brain... I would say it IS worse than regular cat-calling. It's like both sexualizing and slut shaming at the same time. "It's so sexy you aren't being sexy, unlike those other sluts!"
Ew. That's atrocious
God, sounds like a threat. He clearly enjoys exerting power over women by making them feel uncomfortable and exposed and unsafe in their own bodies. If he’s thanking her for being modest, it sounds like he’s implying he would have done something MORE egregious had she not been dressed modestly. This is what purity culture does to people who already suck and objectify women - it makes them feel justified
@TheOtherBoobJustDropped right?! And she didn't even have a chance to tell him off because he was in a moving vehicle.
As a man I'm deeply confused by other men's constant knee jerk desire to shout random things at women on the street. I cant ever even imagine commenting on a random woman's outfit as if it were somehow done for my benefit.
Imagine being so privileged that you think that your deity’s top priority is fashion in a world where people are suffering from starvation, disease, and warfare. But of course god is going to take the time every day to instruct you personally on your wardrobe choices. 🙄
Yea they aren't worried about any of the people in Ukraine, or Gaza, or any other place on earth where people are suffering and dying.
Their measurement of God's concern is SO distressing and useless for basically everyone, including themselves
@joli7948 so God's criteria for helping a child dying from starvation is dressing in a way horny assholes won't cat call you in?
What a great God.
I don’t get any of these replies lol. If you need to fix your outfits before you can go help dying kids, isn’t it as simple as going to the mall and buying a couple outfits? How is this more than a day long task?
@@dollinterrupted I agree. Also, aren’t christians all supposed to see themselves as imperfect sinners? Therefore, why should they wait to focus their prayers and charity work , or whatever, on things that really matter. Focusing on fashion and modesty culture as the most significant thing they can do to please their deity is inherently self-serving and shallow. Instead of putting their energy into this performative act of “pleasing god,” shouldn’t they be using their time and excess wealth on helping the less fortunate?
@user-pn5mn6mv3c I’m sorry, but that seems like the very definition of privilege to me. The desire to try to make themselves look like this perfect representation of christianity taking precedence over the reality of true suffering in the world. I’m not saying they don’t see it as privileged. I’m saying that it is, whether they can recognize it or not.
My ex has very large breasts. G cup. She was denied a raise because her shirts were "too revealing". She was literally wearing the same thing as all the other ladies. This purity culture crap makes it into secular society.
My mom and her brother both worked in the airforce and he would identify her to their coworkers as ‘the one with massive tits’ 🤮🤮🤮
People should stop caring about women s boob size... Gross.
That's absolutely ridiculous and yet sadly I can easily imagine that happening.
@@AW-uv3cb I don't have to imagine. I remember her begging me not to go down there and give her boss a piece of my mind. She was afraid of getting fired and I did respect her wishes but, she quit a few months later as soon as she had a plan in place.
@@drewharrison6433 Glad she had a plan and got out of there, but I wish she sued them for workplace discrimination
men have told me they see dresses as sexier. so how is it more "modest" to wear a dress/skirt?
I guess it depends on the dress. Imagine long, oversized dress to ankles, made of thick, greyish fabric. Aha potatoe sack.😊
THIS! Idk if it's unique to Mormonism, but growing up we had a saying "modest is hottest". But, if the point of modesty is to not draw attention to yourself, and to not tempt each other with impure thoughts, then how is this saying relevant or helpful? It's all hogwash.
@@mirabela1344
yeah and pants also vary. some show the shape of the body and some don't
@@HolldollMcG
+1 yeah that's self-contradictory
@@HolldollMcGhahaha. Ex mo here. That’s was so real.
As someone who was extensively shamed for my body in fundamentalism, this video was so cathartic. I'm working hard on deconstructing modesty culture. I had panic attacks for over an hour a few weeks ago, the first time I wore pants in decades. I'm making progress. I'm taking back my autonomy.
I'm proud of you for even trying knowing the panic attacks are-a-coming! I know that praise from an internet weirdo isn't much, but damn it, that takes intestinal fortitude. Now for some unsolicited advice I learned from recovering my sexuality after childhood abuse: if you go through the struggle and realize you hate pants for your own reasons and end up enjoying dressing "modestly" for your own comfort, that's a valid decision too. Pants are unkind in the thigh-chaffing sort of way, and if you end up choosing not to wear them for your own reasons, that's ok too.
Me too. Thank you for sharing this.
Check out the laws that were in effect when those ideas came about. Women were not considered fully human (very much like Black People to justify slavery). That is because Adam was fully made, and Eve just came from part of his body, so she was not created a fully formed human (notwithstanding "Eve" would have been male if made from Adam's rib). You don't need to take back anything because you ALWAYS had it. You never were without it. Unless you are telling me you are a cloned male who was "cut down" into a female and so aren't fully human???? Yeah, that sounds silly to me too. You wear whatever the F you want to wear and what YOU are comfortable with because you are HUMAN. You ROCK the pants.
I have a dear friend who was raised to believe that God would literally strike her dead if she dared to leave her home in shorts or pants. She's been free of her family for nearly 20 years and still fights the toxic messages she grew up with every day
I don't know you, but I'm so proud of you ❤
But see, if they acknowledged that that Bible verse is about flaunting wealth instead of showing skin, they'd have to reckon with how they aren't really living the whole "a rich man will never enter the kingdom of heaven" thing
Bingo
also they wouldn’t be able to control women
100% spot-on
Exactly 👍🎯
☝💯
I'm sorry, every time I see the thumbnail for her video, I read it as "Moisty." I know it isn't, but it's happened more than once. 😂
Same. Moisty
It 100% says moisty and I refuse to accept anything to the contrary.
Wasn't paying close attention, now I can't unsee it. TIHI.
Same lol
That was my thought when I saw the thumbnail for this video
How about just being nice to people no matter what they look like?
oh but then how could they be judgmental to the people who don’t look like them
If you have to be nice to people, what's the point of evangelical Christianity?
Nice as in respectful im not kissen your but sorry
@@chrys2260just because someone told you that disnt make it real
@@supme7558 no one said anything about anyone kissing anyone’s butt. Just common decency is expected and achievable.
As an exmuslim, I definitely felt when you said if modesty is for men as well, why does it always target women. Same in islam as well. Makes someone realise that it’s just manmade.
What are modesty standards like for Muslim men? I’m kind of curious.
@@Reed5016per the doctrine: they must cover from the navel to the knees. But in practice, you'll probably be asked to leave if you go to the mosque without a shirt.
@@Reed5016 apparently women have to wear hijab, and men also have it? But for men it’s just lowering their gaze. In practice tho, no man does it.
@@howtfamisupposedtoknow9759 @tomisaacson Thanks for letting me know.
It makes me really sad that videos like that only criticize Christians. Yes, Muslims are more discriminated in society but that doesn’t make their religion less absurd and cruel than Christianity. I really wish people would start doing it without attacking Muslims in general and only criticizing those who spread dangerous ideas, cause unfortunately most of critics of Islam are way too far right.
“How can I get the attention off of me”
The first time I was catcalled I wearing a full skirt and a triple oversized hoodie hood up, no makeup
Second time I was wearing the same hoodie, a white ball cap, oversized brown cargo full leg pants, no makeup
The time I was board line sexually harassed I was wearing a 17 year old winter coat, a beanie hat, black thick pants, no makeup
It doesn’t matter, no matter what you do it will never be enough
Most of the time it doesn't matter
what you wear. What matters to these types of men is to have total control over someone.
A man followed me in long thick sweatpants, another touched my ass on the street with wide long pants
Its never about clothes, just about controlling women and their bodies
Its not the clothes... Its about faith and your journey with God
As someone who grew up female and had a curvy body in the Christian church...I can say her ideas are sooo toxic. I was 11 and grown women would call me slurs and acted like I was a "Jezebel" due to my body.
So much ignorance around the female body! I was lucky in that my mom did stand up for me and told them I would be allowed to wear fashionable clothes rather than the overly large clothing the church ladies thought I should be wearing.
I am now a proud pagan, no longer Christian
I completely understand. The second I hit puberty the bitter old biddies at the church I grew up in got mean and jealous and tried to shame me. When I was 14, one of them called my body pornographic! I really could not help that puberty gave me an hourglass figure. When grown ass men are drooling over a 14 year old, it is never the 14 year old's fault.
as someone who was a ddd in 8th grade, i feel you
Purity culture was so wild. I don’t get how these people care so much about what other people put on their bodies. I’m glad you’re mom let you dress the way you wanted though.
My grandma called me a slur when I was like 12 for wearing a tank top and shorts as PJs in the privacy of my own home. My mom was also in my corner about that, she laid into my grandma about that.
Also my curves hadn't even come in at that point. Children are so sexualized, it disgusts me.
I'm a christian, but I just don't agree with some of the things other christians believe in. Like for example calling someone a 'jezebel' like you said. That term is thrown around so much and if I were a unbeliever and a christian came up to me saying I was a jezebel for wearing sexy clothes I probably wouldn't want to talk to them.
I’ve met dudes who were legitimately turned on by formless dresses or sneakers - so if the goal was to make sure we didn’t cause our “brothers” to stumble, we quite literally would never reach that goal.
Amen 🙏
I honestly don't understand why dresses/skirts are seen as more modest.
I kinda see them as "easy access" clothes, like I remember as a teen wearing a dress when my bf came over because we wanted to have sex without taking of our clothes (incase my parents knocked on the door of something)
LIke you have to take of your pants fully to have sex but you can just lift up a skirt.
Modest is so often used as less sexual this makes no sense to me
Relatable
Good observation
It is not sexual but cultural modesty, by not being uppity and appropriating the pants of the superior gender.
@@jeannerogers7085 I hope you are sarcastic about the 'superior' roe of the pants wearer. Since in Biblical times the men wore tunics not pants.... So if trying to be authentic all the good Christian men should be in skirts / dresses
Right, unless you are rocking like Pentecostal-floor-length style skirt it really doesn't make sense. I wore a skirt to school only once because the day I did a boy tried to look up it. They are easy to "hike" up and if they are flowy you risk showing way more leg than you want to. So much of "modesty" advice feels like a weird conspiracy from men to make women look more traditional than "modest."
Connecting the idea of modesty to having a gentle and quiet spirit seems to be very common. I went to a church that twisted that idea into meaning women shouldn’t draw attention to themselves at all especially by dressing “provocatively” even though they meant in anything that the pastor saw as immodest which was anything! I was told I had too much cleavage after having a baby and I needed to breastfeed, the pastor said I was distracting him from the pulpit…what?! Anyone who knows me knows I have never even worn swimsuits because of insecurities these kinds of teachings instilled in me. It’s disgusting! Anything can be deemed inappropriate because all men have their own preferences.
Pastor sounds like a creep. Sorry you had to deal with that.
He was for sure! I am really glad I saw the light finally and got out of there and out of fundamentalism altogether.
Ew that’s sexual harassment wtf
@@dollinterrupted sigh, there’s more but that wasn’t the point. He was/is not a good person. Still preaching though!
Literally this. Lauren Daigle wore a crop top in one of her videos where you could see a small sliver of her stomach. A Christian guy commented saying that as his sister in Christ, Lauren had an obligation to dress modestly because she was tempting him. I told him that if Lauren's stomach was tempting him, he needed to stop looking. In addition, he was blaming her for his lust problem and Scripture says that it's the man's responsibility to deal with that. Men need to stop blaming women for their moral failures and struggles.
Modesty? Nah. It's performative nonsense.
It is
Honestly nothing about her video was modest
Preach.
Promiscuity is not?
!!!!
I always love these christian women who say 'we need to be set apart from the world in our dress' wearing the exact things you'd imagine the average mother to wear. Somehow that's setting yourself apart and not being a stumbling block to men. I'd say my method of wearing men's clothes and shaving my hair is a way better way to both stand out and make yourself less appealing to men! at least that's my aim with it!
Lol and the part about smiling. Smiling is the #1 way in my experience to illicit unwanted attention from men
It's almost funny the sheer mental gymnastics they have to go through to avoid admitting there is no way a woman can dress that is guaranteed to be unappealing to every man out there. Heck, even the shaved head and masc clothes? There are guys who have a thing for Ellen Ripley and Furiosa, you know there are.
@@dollinterrupted I smile like a chimp when they ask, that usually makes them go away.
@@keltai83 its not about making ourselves unappealing...it is about not outwardly trying to seduce a man which is completely different from just looking attractive
There seems to be a pattern of many of these evangelical Christian’s being uncomfortable using words like “modesty” or “purity culture” because they don’t like the negative connotation… but then they continue to say the exact same things.
Like dressing it up with a different word or being “uncomfortable” with it doesn’t change your message
The reason is that evangelical Christians have a bad habit of ascribing intentions and motivations to people who take any umbrage to the concepts of Christian modesty or purity culture.
People who call out those terms correctly identify the actual teachings of modest and purity culture as toxic, controlling, and abusive, inherently. Those things are, in and of themselves, bad.
However, because those concepts are a core part of evangelical fundamentalist beliefs, those things - those concepts themselves - cannot be called bad.
Therefore, because those concepts cant be bad, the people who don’t like those words can’t be reacting to those concepts, they’re reacting to something else.
Those people must be reacting to the way those words have been misused. Those people must not actually understand what those concepts are. Those people might actually even be just immoral sinners who are maligning those concepts because of their ignorance, or their sin.
The concepts are core, and they cannot be wrong. But fundamentalist evangelical Christians NEED to talk about these concepts. To reconcile this, they MUST believe that people are USING THE WORDS WRONG, and THAT is why people take issue with them, and THAT is why Christians are uncomfortable with using certain words.
It’s not because they actually are uncomfortable with those concepts in the way they are presented. It’s because they CANNOT accept someone else’s intentions and experiences when they disagree with their Christian worldview.
Source: a 31 year old who has grown up in evangelical Christianity; has been deconstructing many aspects of my faith for many, many, years; and who has had a recent falling out with his parents because they refused to believe that the issues I had with the high control family environment I grew up in could have been caused in part or whole by them, so they instead chose to attribute the problems I was having, and ways I was acting out, to whatever sin they repeatedly assumed I had, and actively sought to uncover whenever they felt “convicted” that something was wrong in my life.
And people who are convinced that something is wrong will always find what they’re looking for, regardless of whether they’re justified or not, and no matter the consequences.
@@ATTACKofthe6STRINGS Yes, this. I was fortunately raised in a liberal stream of Christianity but I have read so many accounts from people who have encountered or escaped from fundamentalist streams of religion and that seems to be an underlying problem. "It's not that we're wrong, it's just that you don't understand."
@@ATTACKofthe6STRINGSYou put this into words incredibly
My boyfriend, who was not raised in the church, has expressed that he finds long skirts and turtlenecks as super sexy and hot. It "leaves more to the imagination." he said.
Crazy bc a church lady talking to me about modesty said the exact same thing. So how the hell is a 'modest women' to dress? Because according to "leave more to the imagination," a woman can make men 'stumble' as well.
That's why they have burkas, lol
This is damaging to men too. It assumes that men are these slobbering goblins who have no control over themselves. It assumes if a man does something bad it's not because he's just a shit person but he was driven to it by other people or external pressures. It almost gives a blanket immunity to men because we're too simple and stupid to do anything by our own will, we're just caught in the wake of someone else and it's really their fault men keep fucking up. It's just damaging all over everyone and everything and fundamentalists really need to knock this shit off.
Which leaves it ALL to the imagination.
A friend of mine recently said the same thing to me! We were talking about the idea of modesty and he said that he finds modest clothes to be really sexy, so if people dress that way for themselves that’s great, but if they’re doing it with the express intent of not having people find it sexy, it ain’t gonna work.
My church they always said "modest is hottest" like talk about confusing 🤨
Its so wild to hear someone claim an attempt to divert physical attention while in makeup, with their hair styled and dyed, wearing the TIGHTEST turtleneck. Delusion must be on sale
They are supposed to draw attention away from the body and to the "countenance", but some also don't allow makeup or jewelry. I'm curious how she justifies the amount of makeup she wears. She has a "natural" look here, but it takes several products to get that look.
@@bkbffyeah she’s wearing quite a bit of makeup plus hand tied hair extensions
Delusion has sold out and Milena bought all of it.
@@christiecruzxo2841Genuine question: how can you tell that she has extensions? What do you look for to tell the difference between extensions and natural length/volume?
All while constantly looking at herself in the viewfinder. so modest
It makes me feel really sad to hear a woman talk about how she believes women think of each other as competition first and can only be friends if someone doesn't seem "threatening" to them. Also, what threat is she referring to, exactly? The threat of stealing male attention? That's a genuine question. I truly don't know what she finds or believes others find threatening about a woman who is dressed in a way she doesn't approve of.
It is the Patriarchal Way.
Lol I was confused about that part too. Jealous of my friends because of their outfits is unrelateable af 😂
Yes, I don't relate to that at all either. All the women in my life are so supportive of each other, hell I've had so many situations when literal strange women go out of their way to say something nice about your look (and I also do it with other women too). Women tend to be incredibly supportive of each other. This competitive thing is just not real, and if it is, it's only among the type of women I have no interest in hanging out with anyway because they're simply not very nice people.
In fundamentalist circles, men are the providers, and thus control the money, shelter and resources. Fundamentalist women are therefore forced to compete with each other for access to these things. Of course once the woman is "trapped" she is obligated to care for the man's home and parent the offspring while he goes off and does whatever. This is what men, in general, want, but can't enforce in a secular society where women have rights.
I'm someone who just has a modest fashion sense, not because I'm at all religious but because I just generally feel more comfortable covered up and I just like more grandma-type styles. That said, it's very interesting to listen to people who are modest for religious reasons, because their focus is still very heavily on how other people see them and not on the joy of the clothing they're wearing. I love the clothes I wear. I sew stuff and I'm getting good at curating the shapes and fabrics I love best. None of these people seem to derive joy from the clothing itself and instead want people to "focus on their smile instead". I actually do want people to focus on my clothing, cuz it looks nice! People should look more at what I'm wearing and less at my face, actually, because I get to choose what I wear. I didn't get to choose my face.
That’s so cool. I wish I could sew. Because I’m short, a lot of clothes from stores don’t really fit me that well. So if I could make my own clothes, it would be awesome. I could also make a lot of androgynous clothes that fit the style I like. I have a lot of ideas of what I want to wear and how I want it to fit. But it’s hard for me to find what I like in stores.
@@Reed5016 I would encourage you to start sewing if you want to! It's not super hard, just don't go for commercial patterns because those expect an intermediate level of sewing. Instead start with simple clothing, a gathered skirt, a straight top, etc. Most sewing classes start with things like potholders, which is nice to get the basics, but also is super boring to me and results in something I won't really use. So my tip would be to start with really simple garments that you will actually wear. I don't know if the channel still exists, but Annika Victoria used to post videos about simple clothing and beginner friendly projects.
Same. I wear a lot of circle skirts that are tea length or floor length. Not because I care about modesty or whatever, but because I like skirts. I like the swish, I like picking my own fabrics in colours that I know will suit me and complement my wardrobe. I like wearing vaguely historical costume inspired things, for me because I like them. It feels kind of presumptuous if other people assume I wear something because of other people and what they think.
You probably have more joy and smile more than someone who picks clothes for religious reasons
“I’m not going to judge you or tell you what to do, but I’m going to make this whole video judging you and telling you what to do” lol that’s literally the epitome of the evangelical church if I’ve ever seen it 😂
"Evangelicalism has really become indistinguishable from conservative right wing talking points".
Back in my christian college days, I had quite a few conversations with guys who did not like the idea that they had no control over their own thoughts. It was THEIR responsibility to look away or otherwise manage themselves.
Yes, I resent the idea that men are helpless animals whose urges are uncontrollable.
Feelings and urges may have lives of their own, but I control whether I act on them.
If I was a man and it was implied that I have no control over my actions and thought just because a woman is wearing a tank top, I'd be offended too. Seems like I have a much better opinion of men in general than some of these churches!
The thing is, when has there been a concerted effort amongst the XYs in history to actively discipline their thoughts and urges? Hormones are definitely a real thing, for sure, and the journey to mastery will be difficult, but effin DO IT! For women and children's sake, Lord
Grew up from evangelical parents. Part of why I became an atheist is because I was SA'd in "modest" clothing. The shame that I felt was an absolute nightmare. Screw "modesty" culture and the people who perpetuate it.
I find it so confusing that she wants to dress feminine, but not in a way she deems sexually. She definitely looks feminine and the way she looks is definitely considered conventionally pretty. But isn't that going to make men lust after her anyway? It's not like men only lust after you if you show skin. Men are not that one-dimensional.
And I agree, that's not her responsibility, she can dress however she want. But I don't understand why she doesn't see how the way she presents will still attract other men than her husband.
Also, I feel so sad for her that she feels uncomfortable nowadays when she's showing her belly....
In their minds they try and split the sexual from the feminine. We both know that they are not mutually exclusive. Milena is just tiresome.
Honestly, when I still identified as a woman, I was a masc woman in regards to my style. And I still got cat-called by men. I don’t think it really matters how someone presents themselves. Creepy people will be creepy no matter what.
The only way women will really seem to get guys to finally stop their shit is to be 6' or over with a face as you walk down the way that says "touch me and I'll mess you up". I had this in high school, and believe me, no one approached me. Used to make me lonely. Now? So glad I have that. But the most flattering, sexy, and super intimidating thing women can have is confidence and self-defense.
Are u slow? Dressing modesty doesn't equal dressing to look like Shrek. U can dress modestly and still want to be pretty. You think modesty is ugly that's why you are confused as to why she still wants to be pretty as well as modest
Pretty, well kept and attractive ≠ sexual and promiscuous or pornographic
Im fascinated by how even her voice has changed. She noe does the soft, babyvoice thing like Michelle Duggar
it’s genuinely freaky to watch these people
😬
Right?! It's infantilizing and quite frankly creepy and aggravating. It's like we're all children and it makes me so angry, like, my friend is 23 years old but women in the church talk to her like she's 9. It drives the two of us crazy.
The irony of the upside down cross is that it dates from the alleged death of St Peter, crucified upside down. I have encountered various (usually Catholic) churches named St Peter that have the upside down cross as part of their church logo, or part of the gates and fence.
I know, it could be seen as holy or blasphemous depending on your world view.
It's also linked to Satanism (and I mean the actual religion). LaVey wanted people to wear whatever they wanted and if they felt like using the cross because it has that meaning to them, they could. So it's one of their official symbols
It both very catholic and very satanic at the same time
Did not know that. Interesting.
Feeling guilty for not feeling guilty enough is such a good way to phrase it. I didn’t really experience that with modesty specifically, but I did with my sexuality. For me, that phase of feeling like I should feel bad was just a step to full acceptance of myself. She seems to have worked backwards into forcing herself to feel guilt for real.
this is so so real
Kind of sad with 'dressing for women so they do not view me as a threat', like... Does she have friends?? I'd understand if not, she sounds insufferable.
I've never understood how other women would be rivals. Like it's an alien concept, and I know it exists and that other people may think that way. It's just fun to be bisexual and neurodivergent I guess.
I'm neurodivergent and pansexual, I've neverthought "oh no, a competing female!" like it's giving incel vibes, it's giving 'main character villain'-vibes 🙈. All my friendships with other women and nonbinaries are building me up and supporting me, don't think she has the same 😬@@elainelouve
@@MadMadMandy
I completely agree with you.
Women should never be responsible for controlling men’s thoughts. They should control themselves!
My husband got really upset with me about 15 years ago, when my boys were in Cub Scouts. He overheard the Cub Master telling someone else that he had to avoid he had feelings about me (I had no idea up to that point). I told him to talk to HIM and not me because the feelings were not mutual.
Ugh.
Girl preach. I was also the curvy girl (similar to the Jessica rabbit curves) and it was so annoying seeing other girls wearing cute outfits and me not being able to. She pissed me off when she brought that whole "oh some women can get away with it and some can't) 🤦🏽♀️
Yes, especially the way she phrased it like getting away with something. Getting away with what? oH i dOnT fOrCE AnYoNe tO be mOdESt, i JuSt pHrAsE sHoWInG SomE clEaVAgE liKe a FcKinG CriMe
well whoever said that lied because nobody gets away with it
The inherent sexualization of curves is so messed up to me.
I saw a tiktok the other day of a teacher showing off her teacher outfits. She would wear slacks with nice blouses, all things perfectly appropriate and within the dress code for a teacher but... she had a butt. The comment section was filled with people saying how inappropriate her outfits were and how horrible she was for dressing sexually for her job.
I've felt this way too. I have a booty, I can't help it. It looks especially good in business slacks... so what am I supposed to do when clothing made to look professional are suddenly sexual because it's on my body?
You can't win and you never will if the vesal you came in is what people find inappropriate.
As if a guy's suit is not made to make him look hot in it.
The victim-blaming mentality of asking survivors of SA, "What were you wearing?" needs to stop now. In almost all cases, the victim was wearing regular clothes, and research has found that clothing has nothing to do with the motivation of the assailant. These crimes only happen because someone wanted to commit them. Why is it not the responsibility of men to control themselves or mind their own business?
Because it's so much easier to blame the victim instead of addressing the larger problem; abusers feeling entitled to women, seeing women as less than, and seeing women as things rather than people.
I mean, according to the Bible, women are property, with rules for sale and punishments equal to property crime for violating a woman. Want a wife? Grab a couple handfuls of shekels, commit noncon, and pay her dad. Bam! Got a wife.
Fr! You can be a moslim fully clothed from top to botem and there would still be those kinds of people after you. 😔
and why does it matter what one was wearing, that's such a weak excuse
THIS!!
I went to an all-women exercise class, because the area I lived in was predominantly Muslim. Not one of the ladies there was this hung up about putting on leggings and taking off their veils and hijabs. We even had an end of year BBQ on a quiet beach and most of them had their hair out and wore leggings so we could play volleyball and go into the water comfortably. I can't imagine being so particular in trying to control how men view you through your clothing, let alone a group of women who are around you for the sole purpose of working out and possibly socialising a bit while doing so.
And yet these exact same people act with disgust and derision towards women who wear a hijab.
32:33 THIS. As soon as I started getting busty in MIDDLE SCHOOL my family members would tell me how "happy they would make my future husband"... It grossed me the fuck out... I hated it and it made me feel shameful more than anything else.
🤢
That's just so wierd, I'm so sorry for you. :(
Same. As a kid, I would always be so uncomfortable when adults tried to pair me up romantically with someone. Even if it's just a joke, kids aren't thinking about relationships, they just wanna play. That made me so uncomfortable, because I didn't wanna be sexualized I would always numb my feelings when I thought I had a crush on someone, even as older
@@ArtificialSuicidmy mom’s best friend had a son a month before I was born so we grew up with our parents joking we were arranged to be married. That was until I got fat in middle school. Then it was how dare you view my son that way. I remember so vividly one Christmas I had a late lunch and wasn’t hungry by the time we went to their house. I was called disgusting for not wanting to eat in front of her son because “I liked him.” Not for one second did she consider I might genuinely not be hungry.
It was such a weird mixture of sexualizing a childhood friendship and also body shaming me bc I was no longer pretty enough for her or her son. Gross behavior.
@mermaidcatching I'm so sorry you had to go through that, nor you or your friend deserved that. I hope future generations will learn how this behaviour plays a role in sexualising kids + imposes heterosexuality and stop this. I hope you're able to heal, have regular crushs and friendships. I've been body shamed too as a kid, I'd always be compared to my cousins and my mom and aunties would always talk about how they were prettier than me and looked better in certain clothing because they were thinner. That sucked, I get how you feel 🫶
She hates the word modest/modesty and then proceeds to use it 270 times
274, actually lol
@@MrsDazl if I actually guessed within 4 that would be impressive 😂
@@wdc_nathan 🤭🤭
“Dressing modestly is fun because it forces me to be more creative!” *proceeds to dress herself like an actual toddler*
Good for her, I don't really see how it is more creative. I put a tank top under a deep cut shirt when I don't feel comfortable without it and don't think of it as being creative. To me its the same as putting on a cardigan when its cold.
As a curvy, busty woman who was a curvy, busty teen, modesty culture was so damaging. Especially seeing normal clothes that other girls could wear without comment and then wearing something the same or similar and being told that I'm causing others to stumble, when I'm just trying to be comfortable and live my life, was so damaging. The process of stopping caring and wearing what I felt like wearing without it being a 20 minute internal debate was so freeing.
I love it when my god ok's my drip.
Literally LOL
i love that you phrased it like this LOL
😂 I want a tshirt with a saying like this
I feel like she brought up a PDF of the bible and did CTRL+F "clothing" and assumed those verses were relevant.
NOT CTRL+F 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 - blasphemous to the Windows users
😂😂😂😭😭😭🤣🤣😊
control F is crazy 💀
That is exactly how they do it. When ai was an evengelical I had books that had all the verses on a certain word...
@@prinsesjuds5761yup, we called it a “word study” where we’d just read all the verses with the same word and try to find connections haha
Modesty is very subjective. I'm a Muslim woman and what Christians consider modest is slutty to us. Maybe this will give her some perspective lmao
To me the whole skirt requirement in Fundie circles has always been so confusing because it's in no way related to scripture but treated like some deeply spiritual rule when I feel less protected in a skirt than I do in pants. The whole idea of women wearing skirts and men wearing pants is a pretty modern gender convention and I don't see how "biblical scholars" "skirt" around that fact.
"we shouldn't look like the world" - is living in a beigecore MFH home with her curled balayage hair and neutral toned fast fashion outfit
Modesty is the weirdest thing to me. Like in high school I played tennis and the 6-7 of us on the team at a time werent allowed to wear our uniforms to school, while cheerleaders (who wore less fabric and outnumbered us 3-1) were encouraged to.
I remember my high school’s cheerleading uniform was shorter than the dress code allowed, but the girls were still expected to wear it to class. It’s all so ridiculous.
My problem with modesty is that they forget that Adam and Eve, before sin entered the world were naked!!! Promoting shame is not biblical at all! Shame comes only from the devil.
Shame only comes from social pressure/being taught it. The only shoulds and shouldn'ts come from human expectations, and so are social constructions. And shame comes from crossing those constructed lines.
If you believe that Adam and Eve existed you should also believe that they were ashamed of being naked immediately after eating a fruit. So your comment makes no sense. The story of A&E also doesn't make sense by the way.
Yes!!
I can’t say that i understand the idea of modesty too too well. Is putting yourself out there on social media modest? Is tight clothing modest if it covers arms legs and chest? Makeup? Doing your hair (braiding, curling, etc)? What about just combing your hair? Hygiene in general? Is existing immodest? Who gets to decide? I don’t get it
Women arent to be on social media, wear make up, styling their hair, speaking, laughing, smiling in public, or showing of their body. This is bibilcal. Existing however seems also to be immodest as many men wish women didnt exist.
Agree. The issue of not drawing attention to one's self. Like the trad wife influencers who promote submissive stay at home wives/motherhood / women shouldn't speak or teach.... whilst also being figureheads in their communities through speaking and preaching to men and women. And making that influencer told an income.
Yes, there seems to be a lack of definition for modesty. The lack of it makes it even weirder that she combines thoughts of modest clothing with trying to not be of the world. Like Taylor said, nothing about Melina appears as non-worldly. She seems so carefully put together, with a lot of mental space going into her outfit, make up and hair routine and in the background you can see her trendy furnishings. She definitely tries to appear attractive and beautiful. I think she's very delulu.
I used to always feel SO ashamed for not feeling guilty enough about my "sin" and enjoying it too much. It was so toxic ugh
You were committing the sin of enjoying your life. In the words of Frankenfurter, "How COULD you!?"
We must cure the cause, but NOT the SYMPTOM!
This wasn't mentioned in the original video or the the critique, but i think its important to call attention to the double standard that some evangelical people tend to impose on modesty as interpreted through other faiths.
Head coverings are part of Christian religious practices, for nuns for instance, I was once invited to a mass where as a woman, i had to wear a veil in church.
I wonder what she thinks about that "flavour" of modesty as compared to a hijab or a shpitzel.
Is modesty, writ large "good" in and of itself, or is there a "wong" way to be modest.
Food for thought
Ps: As always love your videos! Thanks for bringing nuance to a complext subject! Love the upside-down crosses! :)
I was just about to make this comment myself! You just worded it much better than I would have done😅. I was thinking: if a woman with a head scarf was making this exact video and quoting the Quran in stead of the Bible....
Let's start at the top of her head. She obviously spends a fair amount of time and money on her hair, her makeup and nails. She caresses and flips her hair incessantly drawing attention to her enhanced self. That is not biblical modesty and if I believed in a supreme maker I imagine he'd be more than a little pissed that she feels the need to improve on his work. 🤯
She doesn’t get her hair done anymore nor has she got her nails done either. She also doesn’t wear much makeup anymore either.
The more I listen to people like this, the more I am convinced that this slow erosion of identity and constant fretful self-analysis and hyper-focus on appearance is engineered to keep women too anxious to have independent thoughts, all while couching it as femininity and modesty.
You're too smart for the internet
"Help me feel guiltier for something I dont feel guilty of"
Reminder my friends: Being “of the world” means being a greedy capitalist, racist, homophobic, etc. That does NOT include how you dress or how you present or your how your body looks.
I wouldn't say it causes kids to want to do the opposite, so much as it keeps a constant focus on it all of the time. That's going to manifest in different ways for different people. Some will become petrified of being immodest, while others will perhaps rebel. I'd imagine there's a spectrum there, but the connection is an incredibly unhealthy concern about modesty being drilled into someone's head constantly.
And much anxiety and preoccupation, distracting a female from her actual life. The anxiety also facilitates shaming and control.
The fact that I got two Bible app adds before this is kinda hilarious
Hot take, she has a post pregnancy body now, and instead of working on self esteem issues that may have come up due to natural, beautiful changes postpartum, she's using a move toward modesty as a smokescreen and a religious/pious explanation for covering up
Oh lord this comment hit hard. Brilliant 😂😊
I used to work for Disney, and when I see the way she dresses now all I can think of is Rapunzel. It looks more costume than natural.
Kind of fitting, isn't it? A woman imprisoned up in a tower, with no connection to the world other than her beachy balayage hair extensions
I personally wear very modest clothing, but it isn't because of my religion (as I'm an atheist)
For me, modesty brings comfort and safety, but that's just how it feels to me.
I would NEVER tell someone else how to dress, though. You wear a dress? Great! You wear a tank top and shorts? Also great! Dress what makes you feel the most comfortable! Just be yourself darlings!
When she said that women are so much nicer to each other, my brother and I burst out laughing.
I'm so sad that there are thousands of people in the world who really believe that in order to please their Divinity more, they have to dress up from head to toe. The reference to her children who would have taken her as a model and not wanting to show them "skin" demoralized me. I was a daughter and I am a mother and I can assure the girl in the video that neither I towards my mother, nor my son towards me, have ever emphasized a cleavage. I was in my mother's arms, thinking about her love, not her cleavage. These people are dangerous and it is even more dangerous that girls are not taught that no one owns their bodies or their thoughts. Thank you for the video and the care you put into it.
I watch videos like these and am reminded of how utterly exhausting it was to be an evangelical. During the time i was a christian, all of this was so normal to me; feeling convicted and guilty, or not guilty enough about so many absurd things. I didn't realize how unhappy i was until i washed my hands of it all.
This makes me think of the display of clothes people were wearing when they were SA'ed. There's everything there from very modest pajama sets to jeans and a T-shirt to club wear. SA has nothing to do with what a person is wearing. The modesty movement may have tried to change their words to be less confrontational and offensive, but the message remains the same.
I'm confused why modesty is such a big deal in the first place.
As a Christian, I was hoping to share my thoughts on this. I don’t think we can accurately judge someone’s modesty because we don’t know their heart. If a girl is wearing a crop top she thinks is cute is she less Christian than a girl who wears a poodle skirt that spent hours planning the outfit wondering what others would think of her? I would argue the girl who grabbed a crop top without thinking is actually better because she did not pick her outfit obsessing over what would be pleasing to others. She just thought it was cute and grabbed it-no ulterior motives. The reality is that what is “modest” shifts with time and culture. I would never put down another Christian because of what she wears.
ALSO, the woman in the video has clearly invested a lot into her appearance: expensive clothes/jewelry, expensive hair, expensive makeup. I mean to me that’s equally as “bad” as showing a lot of skin-both are done to gain others attention/approval. Of course, I think she’s beautiful and these things don’t make you a bad Christian but if you’re going to make a video about modesty recognize it isn’t just about clothing. It just seems kind of ignorant.
I struggle to understand how people who are this deluded can function in day to day life. If a minor thing like wearing a comfortable shirt is a cause for an existential crisis, what does the rest of a day, week, month, year, look like?
Didn’t finish the video yet but the way she literally self shamed and asked to feel ashamed about herself is so sad and depressingly speaks about how she views her own religion ☠️
I hate modesty and purity culture so much. I'll probably never be free of their effects. As an adolescent, i was absurdly modest, wearing baggy clothes and refusing to wear makeup or paint my nails or do anything "girly". It wasn't out of 'holiness,' it was because I was always way too able to put two and two together. I saw all the victim-blaming happening in response to SA and lived in absolute terror that if I dressed immodestly, I'd be SA'd. I'm doing better than I was, but I still struggle sometimes.
Watching Milena slide further and further into fundamentalism has been sad. She was always Christian, but it was a facet of her and not her entire personality. She was cute and normal and not talking about submitting to your husband and instilling ~character qualities~. It seems the more kids she has the more radical she becomes.
Im not really familiar with her. I would not be interested her content. You made a very interesting observation being familiar with her🙄🤔
@@tiziay I never watched her super regularly. I was subscribed but I would mostly only watch her outfit videos. I unsubscribed around the time she had her first baby because I’m child free and don’t really have an interest in watching family content. I’ve kept up here and there with her through Reddit and occasionally checking her channel out of morbid curiosity, but she’s really like night and day. In terms of personality and dress. She was Christian and believed in modesty, but she had a spark to her, a sense of humor. You could still see that version of her going out with her girlfriends for a tipsy brunch. Now she just seems so dour and joyless and strict about everything like she believes she has to suffer for her life to mean something. I feel bad for her because it’s like she’s squashing herself down to fit this small worldview. But I also don’t want to let her off the hook because she’s got some problematic beliefs. I just feel a twinge of sympathy for any woman trapped in this patriarchal bubble.
Radical?! You liked her when her beliefs were just in her heart and didn’t “show through” . She’s literally following the Bible which she believes is the truth. When muslim women do y’all respect it and stay quiet. If Christian women do they’re radical?? What’s radical about putting your family first, wanting to be a good Wife and wanting your husband to lead and provide and dress modesty?! How is this radical?! How?! 😂
You wanna know why she’s more Christian now? Because our culture has become more liberal and more insane we can’t even define what a woman is. Christians are insulted and shamed in the public space , housewives are also ashamed, to be a right wing is to be a fascist now, pronouns, onlyfans going mainstream, political divide for the smallest things and overall sense of “things are going downhill” and is true, the Left is destructive our culture that they see as misogynistic, racist, transphobic, colonialist, anti Christian, amoral and anti family and anti men, white etc.
@@cheesecake134
Melina has a baby
You : And I take that personally
@@kant.68 💀
"Do I feel adequately filled with shame today?? In what way could I possibly be more racked with guilt, in order to please my 'kind and loving' god...?? Jesus show me the way...!!"
What must it be like to exist in a non-sexualized body? I didn't even grow up in a fundie or religious home, but modesty and purity culture were pervasive. I am in my late 30s and still feel a deep discomfort/fear wearing a skirt above my knees that was put into me by middle school dress codes and abstinence-only sex ed programs (which were definitely fundie-led and still the basis for the public school curriculum because Indiana sucks that way).
I love when I hear the "I'll wear sexy items for husband but a cloth bag for others" coming from people who can afford 2 wardrobes. Slow clap....
I grew up orthodox jewish and this really resonates with what we were taught about modesty. Fundamentalism looks so similar between religions. Control is control
13:35 It’s true. The worst time I was sexually harassed, I was picking up a carryout pizza wearing an oversize turtleneck sweater - it was a grandma outfit. A guy said something to me about making his balls feel good and this huge group of men he was in all chimed in and laughed as if it’s normal to talk to a random girl like that. I was 19 and I was so blindsided and shocked that I just kept walking and said nothing. That’s when I learned plain and simple that it can’t be avoided by what you wear.
Here's the paradox: If modest is the hottest, and "hot" is sinful, shouldn't you be dressing as slutty as possible, as this is less hot and thus less sinful?
(This comment may contain traces of sarcasm)
As a Christian, modesty culture always rubbed me the wrong way. I try to dress modestly but it never feels like enough. I’ve been catcalled and creeped on MORE when I have dressed modestly compared to when I wear like a crop top or leggings.
As a recent atheist and longtime metalhead, I now watch your videos to see the cool metal shirts you wear with the added benefit of some social commentary
YES! Lol, same here! (Except, while I've been an atheist since 2019, I unfortunately only discovered/fell in love with metal a couple of years ago; but I'm making up for lost time as voraciously as I can). So much metal, so little time... 😂💛
The victim blaming is strong even in the catholic church. I left religion a few years ago but the work I have to do every day to not feel shame for being myself is really hard, and I still struggle with a lot of guilt. I always dressed modestly, but the few times a little skin was uncovered (I'm talking an inch of skin showing under the neck, not even shoulders uncovered in church, which are really frowned upon, especially in Italy where I come from) I've had humiliating exchanges with my parents, family members, even nuns DURING mass. My Sunday school teachers (who were no more than 8-15 years older than me) were teaching us that if a man lusts over a woman it's her sin too, and she should confess it. I remember thinking "how the hell would I know??" but then going back home with extra anxiety because of it. Religion is made to control people, render them insecure in order to gain power.
I lived in saudi Arabia, to the people there "western modesty" is still dressing like a "wh**e" so thats that.
I got called this for beeing tall, but I was fully covered otherwise black long dress, gloves, headscarf, face covering, but my figure is just tall and skinny with curves, so that will always be visible.
This mindset is wild. The whole “How can I get people to not look at me in a sexual way?” Thing is eeesh 😬 Babe, you can’t control what other people think about you.
Sad beige furniture for sad beige Christians
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. -1 Corinthians 2:14
Not convinced they understand what modesty means.
They don't. Traumatized people
10:20 “LORD, convict me“ sounds like Christianese for “Please make me feel bad and ashamed about something i actually feel good/neutral about.“ Hmm. Feels sad to me.
Thank you for covering this topic, Taylor! 💕
Reflections: I’m surprised to hear her say that there is “no judgment or shame” for doing something “different than she’s doing” because in my evangelical circles there WAS judgment and shame dealt out, ranging from passive aggressive remarks to outright criticisms. Still, like you said, the shame is implied. A good reminder that “disclaimers” don’t work if they are in conflict with our main message. 😅
Here's the deal, I really don't care if people wear a hijab or even a burlap sack just don't demand others do so.
The idea of what you may see as a hint of versus what is visible can be very different in attraction. Compare to horror/thriller films - some are full on gore, others only suggest it, but can be more powerful for what is left to the imagination.
When males are only around ankle length skirts then an ankle becomes a taste of what else exists.
'a glimpse of stocking is something shocking' as Sinatra sang....
This reminds me of the argument that women wear makeup for men. Like, no. I wear makeup to make myself happy. If anything, I’m wearing makeup to impress other women. Why do men have to be part of the conversation at all?
And I don't wear makeup but not because any anti men stuff, just that I prefer the extra time in bed rather than putting a face on.
My thoughts on that are a bit mixed up. I do usually tend to wear light make up (mascara, a dash of foundation on my cheeks, plus a bit of powder and rouge)... I don't think of it as "I do it so men like me", but I definitely do it because I'm a bit insecure about my skin imperfections... (I also put it on when I'm seeing my female friends, but I don't do it if I'm not going out. I do put on my earrings and sometimes even perfume when I work from home, though, so clearly THIS is something that I do purely to make myself happy, but make-up is connected to how I want to be perceived by others). So even if it's not directly about being attractive to men, it is at least partially motivated by societal standards of pretty, and those in turn are affected by what men find attractive. So no, it's not all about men... but it's a little bit about them too, I guess? I think if I wore heavier make up with colourful eyes etc (which, btw, I love on other women), I'd also see it as more of a means of self-expression, but the way I do it - yeah, there's a degree of a self-confidence boost and being happy about myself, but there's also a degree of insecurity (because why do I feel more confident with my natural skin evened out by make-up in the first place?). I always think make-up is an altogether more complex issue than just "oh it's all about appealing to men" vs "oh no I only do it for myself", with most women caught up somewhere in between, and so many personal and societal and economical aspects tied into it too. But I guess I'm rambling a bit here, haha...
True. I wear makeup to look more fresh and less tired. So I mostly do that for work, so I guess I use makeup mainly for clients. Might be just to look more fresh on other occasions too.
Well it’s absolutely something set up by men and part of a system that punished women for not doing so. I have never felt comfortable wearing makeup and have heard from multiple people including women that they wont hire women who don’t wear it. Men being a part of the convo surrounding it makes sense considering they don’t have to wear it at all, but we do.
You wear makeup for validation, how’s wearing mkup for women any better? You care about what others think and you definitely care what the guys you find attractive think about you IN GENERAL, even the way you behave. You’re jus fooling yourself witj femimist nonsense
When I see obviously expensive suits on male preachers while they are asking for money and telling women to be modest, I think HYPOCRITE.
31:08 I was already busty by middle school and because I also grew up with "modesty culture" I HATED my bust SO much... I hated shopping for clothes because I felt I had to shop in the women's sections and not sections actually made for me, a middle-schooler. ☹️
Oh, yeah - The modesty culture and body type issues were so frustrating for me too. I dressed like an adult because that’s what I was bought. I looked 20 at 12, and I ended up getting hit on by grown men in religious adjacent environments and bullied at school.
"modesty" is always only about the women in these christian conversations... it's gross
The whole “not of the world” thing is nuts to me because, no matter what you wear, you are engaging in something of the world because all clothing is made by people of the world, from raw materials of the world, and comes from all over the world in a globalized fashion industry. Even if she were to make her own clothes, the textiles were made by the world - if she were to weave her own fabric, those techniques come from the history of our world and the people all over the world. Fashion and clothing IS of this world no matter how you look at it
This, but even without going so deep into it - the whole "not of the world" spiel coming from a woman with obviously dyed and styled hair, darkened and styled eyebrows and a full make-up on her face, plus a full manicure (all of which takes time and money and all of which clearly conforms to a narrow "worldly" standard of beauty) is so hypocritical. Please don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there's anything bad about any of those things as such. It's just the audacity of saying that you're not worldly and don't dress to attract admiration, just because you go for a different type of clothing, meanwhile everything else about you conforms to the "worldly" standard to a tee... How conceited and fake.
I live in NE Ohio pretty close to Lake Errie. We have BRUTAL winters, so everyone is in parkas, hoodies, hats, boots, jeans- just covered head to toe. Hasn't stopped men from hitting on or cat calling me.
This also happens at work. I'm a nursing assistant on a med surge floor in a hospital. I'll be in my scrubs that probably have C Diff poop on them. Doesn't stop men from oggling.
It's so ridiculas to pretend that just putting cloth over your skin stops men from objectifying or lusting after women. I feel like I get the same weirdness whether I'm in a parka or a crop top. The only difference is that in the crop top it's somehow more my fault then the parka.
Lake Erie gang stand up! LOL. Yeah, I feel ya... i was once hit on while wearing a tie-dye mumu dress. A potato sack. 😂
@@whattheflimflam Yup lol. Down inbetween A kay Rowdy & The Mistake on the Lake lol 😂😂😂
10:00 - 10:10 listening to this is so, so sad.. and I'm sad for her and all the other woman, evangelic or not, who end up falling for this type of lies. who shame themselves for being human and living life.
I agree. A woman openly stating that her role as a mother "should" affect her in an area that doesn't affect her children is something I generally dislike and her genuinly believing that her feeling bad and shameful would be right and good, that's devastating.
Aside from the fact that it's terrible that she's propagating this on the Internet where vulnerable young women are going to watch it. But also it's really sad that she is so worried about even a single thought.
Sucks seeing a woman complicit in her own subjugation through Bronze Age mythology.
Two things that come to mind whenever I think about Modesty as a topic:
The interview with Barlow Girl about "wearing 5 tank tops and long sleeved shirts and scarves to cover necks" and taking them as inspiration as a kid which led to a lot of instances where I almost fainted so please don't follow their advice and also rid yourself of that sunlight on your body.
But also... The Victorian/Edwardian era clothing exists... So they could literally just go vintage. If they want to wear layers upon layers upon layers, they may as well do it the proper way!
That's my 2 cents
NO WAIT I HAVE ANOTHER CENT TO THROW NOW! OMG 19:51 I'm a little sorry to say this, but this grinds my gears all the time and did ever since childhood. Saying this is privilege from having an average looking/skinny body. I have 2 sacks of useless meat that are both larger than my head. There is no way to make myself modest enough to not be noticeable. There is no way to not have that attention there no matter what I do. Being able to make the rest of your body "unnoticeable" so your face "shines more" is skinny privilege. Growing up and being told to constantly cover up? How much more? I'm already wearing baggy tshirts and mens hoodies and turtlenecks and compression bras and make myself look drab. How much more would it take to meet that level of requirement that I will never be...