we played TF2 with NO Snipers
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2023
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old title:
"tf2 but sniper is BANNED. what happens? i tried it out - gameplay experiment & analysis"
FAQ:
Q: How did you make that? What editing software do you use?
A: I use Adobe Photoshop, Premiere Pro & After Effects. Photoshop for image editing and thumbnails. Premiere Pro for compositing and After Effects for motion graphics (the fancy animations). - เกม
![[TF2] The Huntsman VS The Sniper Rifle - A Balance Discussion](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vQdbmPC-jbE/mqdefault.jpg)
this video is the first time i've tried to incorporate things like stats and the heatmaps into a report of how an experiment went, so i hope the writing for this video didn't come off as a mess ;_; lmk if you have any feedback, or if you think it was fine. thanks :)
nice
nice
hi shounic, hope you have a good day 🙂
heatmaps 🤤
I like your videos. Hope, there be more videos like this, very interesting
Sniper the character? Beautiful. Perfect. Angel. Love him.
Sniper in game? wanker
"Yeah, that seems about right." - Sniper
_piss_
true
Sniper in lore is such an enjoyable character, and it’s a shame he’s so annoying in game
all your heads look bloody twelve feet tall!
"removing sniper does little to change the game negatively but does make it more fun" is a hilarious result of this
NOOO WE SHOUDL LET PLAYERS SNIP BAD PLAYERS JUST GIT GUD ITS STILL FUN (only for sniper mains)
@@kalikinzhalin7154 idk, playing against a good sniper blows ass and makes the game unfun, but I do like bullying mid to low skill snipers by sneaking up on them
@@zebulaun lmao that was obvious irony
@@kalikinzhalin7154look up the definition of the word irony. Then look up the definition of the word sarcasm
If there's anything I've learned over time watching videos such as this, it's that a big thing players hate is instantly dying, especially if it's something they couldn't react to. It's why many times snipers are seen as annoying in games, for example. I suppose making anything an instant kill that can come from a long distance is hard to make fun. Similar issues plague shotguns in some games, even.
So people generally had more fun when they didn't have to worry about a class one-shotting them from across the map? Shocker.
people get SO MAD when you say sniper doesn't feel fun to play against as a class and now here's evidence it doesn't even matter if they're gone. sniper is a vestigial relic from the half life deathmatch days change my opinion
@@TheCocoYouKnowits just op and hasnt been touched since basically launch
Honestly, I don't even think Sniper is OP. He's just not fun. Most snipers who aren't god-tier can't exactly wreck your team, it's just that your fate is entirely within the hands of the sniper and not a roughly equal exchange. With every other class, there's always something you can do even if the class matchup is in their favor. Going against a sniper, you just have to move like a madman and pray.@@thecreature456
@@psy-fi64he's unbalanced, but OP is an exaggeration
@@RandomFurry07
>can oneshot half the classes in the game from any distance whatsoever if the snipers good enough
>can oneshot all the rest by charging for about 4 seconds
>literally 0 counterplay unless the other team picks sniper
fair and balanced
And thus, with Sniper mains removed from the ecosystem, the endangered Heavy main can now roam free.
Spy:
@@normaldude7924*snort*
@@normaldude7924And thus, with Spy mains being assholes per usual, Heavies adapt by using the Hou-Long Heater en masse to make some French Spies into French Fries.
@@tigerlover2853 and to counter this adaptation, the spies went to use the spycicle and play gun spy to slaughter the heavies.
@@ARandomPersonFromTheNet This adaptation would fail horribly, as Gun Spy is not enough to kill one heavy, let alone a group.
This is like an Ecology study. "The environment containing this predator saw prey avoiding these spots, and eating foods available in sheltered areas." "The environment without this predator saw prey spreading out in the open much more, and prioritizing the most valuable foods."
A team-based action game which centers around evolution and ecosystems sounds rather cool.
@@schizophrenic_rambler
I bet there probably is one already
@@schizophrenic_rambler Spore? I supposed it's not a team-based game per say, but it's close enough I think.
woah, woah slow, brain
@@schizophrenic_rambler there's that one dinosaur game where you play either a predator or a herbivore
"Study shows Sniper literally adds nothing to the game but making it less fun"
You don't even need to do any experiment or study to make that determination, it's just common sense.
@@maximilianodiaz4151 sniper main detected
Sniper is the worst class because:
-He is mostly played by COD kids and tryhards
-Only skill he needs is positioning and aiming
-He can instakill any class from places you can't see almost completely risk free (even spy has to get close and risk himself)
-His cosmetics appeal to edgelords and the aforementioned COD kids
-He makes the game objectively less fun with his instakill bullshit
-He(an generic Australian hitman with a rifle) is forgettable unlike Heavy (the mascot of TF2) or Soldier (Insane American patriot) or even Pyro (whatever the fuck he/she/it even is)
-He enabled the bot plague and became the cheaters' favorite class due to the aforementioned bullshit instakill
Fuck snipers and fuck sniper mains
@@Asmeasmeasme he was agreeing that sniper was bad?
It seems like you are talking about the arty in wot 😂
The biggest issue with sniper is that it’s just not fun to be instantly killed by a class that isn’t directly engaging you, and especially when you’re busy dealing with others on the enemy team. Spy needs to get up close and personal to backstab you, and every step of the way he faces almost certain death if he’s caught. With sniper, he can just sit five miles away and across the map for someone to dare to stick their head out for 0.5 seconds. And even if you see him, getting to him is a nightmare when his entire team stands between you and him. The only counters to him, really, are either a competent spy or another sniper. And like I said earlier, it’s an uphill battle for spy to reach his target.
Tf2's a low-to-mid range combat game, and sniper is just antithetical to that design.
Soldiers spamming their rockets around corners.
Demomen doing same thing as Soldiers with grenade launcher pipes, sticky spam or random sticky traps.
Either of those two with a god damn Kritzkrieg shoved so far up their rear you can see the healbeam through their mouth.
@@simplysmiley4670im sure that strategy will work when on most maps the soldier/demo will be instantly killed before they can even see where the sniper is, let alone get into a spot to shoot him. good luck getting past the ENTIRE enemy team to get to ONE sniper too btw LMAO. i'm sure soldier's slow rockets and demo's hard cap on pipe distance will let them easily deal with the sniper from across the entire map. you know, the guy who has an instakill gun with infinite range. who also has his entire team in front of him.
The only way to beat the best class in the game is to play the worst one. Funny how that works
no it's because you're a child that sees sniper as taking away your legos.
Basically the game gets instantly better for literally every single class
Probably incuding sniper!
@@youtubeuniversity3638 Especially sniper
@@punishedwhispers1218 because sniper players finally get to experience the sensation of touching grass
@@beefyblomthey go back to counter strike where they belong, the buggers
@@beefyblom Sniper player forced to actually play TF2 and not an aim trainer
0:48 the idea of straight up just walking thought that door and other chokepoints without 3 snipers looking at you feels like finally unclogging your nose
right!?
yes
I play sniper nearly as much as my main and I felt that
That’s the best description I’ve ever heard in my life
When you get off the plane and pop your ears for the first time.
“The only real difference was the game centralizing more around the main team fights”
Y’know, the fun part?
@Nyris1 actually fighting people with my guns is more fun than getting oneshotted from the distance I can't even fight back? no fucking way man
@@SanityDropOr just don't be a pepega and stand still for a good shot? Complaining about snipers if TF2 is pretty much same as complaining about planes in a realistic war FPS. With planes around you need far more cover to avoid getting killed, and planes are far more dangerous to your team if your own planes are failing to keep enemy planes in check. Same is with snipers here. If your team mates are failing at counter sniping then your team is going to have harder time. Also spies exist for that purpose too. That razorback aint doing shit.
@@spugelo359 "It's like planes in realistic war FPS" So, centralizing to the meta and disproportionately effective in comparison to other players? Cool, we agree! Problem is, planes are *supposed* to do that, Sniper isn't.
@@notsuchabadguy Sniper is supposed to do exactly that in most games and clearly the purpose sniper was given in TF2. Otherwise it would have been nerfed long ago. Many maps allow other classes to counter snipers, meanwhile some are just simply more suited for snipers.
I don't see anybody complaining about engineers, a single person able to hold back multiple enemies all at the same time with hard counter existing. Spies are supposed to be that but it only takes a single semi competent team mate to be nearby to make that spy ineffective. In many locations soldiers and demomen aren't able to target sentries easily either. A proper sentry nest easily becomes an artificial choke point. The only truly proper counter would be medic + somebody else, but you need whole 2 people to counter a single person.
Meanwhile sniper can be easily countered by 1 person. Spies in almost every map and location, other snipers, scouts in many maps, jetpack pyros, soldiers and demomen in some locations... medics (crossbow) and pyros can harass snipers in every map. Only ones truly helpless against sniper would be engineers and heavies, and pyros if sniper is countering the flaregun.
@@spugelo359 "otherwise it would have been banned a long time ago" lol. So I guess by that logic, the bots are supposed to be there too? Because, you know, if they weren't, Valve would have banned them a long time ago.
Vehicles in modern infantry shooters are balanced by scarcity when compared to the number of players. Sniper isn't. Anyone can go into the character select and pick the no-fun-allowed instakill-from-across-the-map class. The point this video *very eloquently demonstrates*, if you bother to watch it, is that Sniper should have been nerfed a long time ago: The game would be much better if he wasn't as prevalent.
Also, if you actually think Spy/Scout counters Sniper, I'd heavily encourage you to play with some good Snipers lol
3:57 not to mention, this already happens a lot in casual and sniper doesn’t do shit to stop it. If the cart already has momentum, it’s going to keep moving. Once it’s cleared, a sniper can certainly help to keep it from getting started again, but so can any other class. The only difference is that being stopped by any other class isn’t as frustrating.
I would argue i’ve used the machina to great effectiveness when it comes to clearing snowballing carts but I admit that it’s not the most common scenario
@@PassTheSnails and even then, I can imagine that would rely heavily on the enemy not retaliating. It’s hard to hit headshots when 3 Heavies are causing you to flinch
@@Geebanger0 I can definitely think of some parts of Upward where it’s just not feasible to be gunning at a sniper so far away from you. The sightlines are plenty long enough
Oh look, here comes Russia.
That's because people have this mentality that "didn't see person who killed me before I died" = "class is broken" instead of the objectively correct "I died because I wasn't paying attention."
One interesting side effect is that when more attention is centralized on the objective, flank routes become more if a "sneaky" option for scouts and other roaming classes rather than just an alternative approach option
Which is, y'know, the _entire point of flank routes_
Alternative title: Sniper went back to Australia for the holidays but the other mercs still wanted to fight.
but he’s from new zealand
@@rooknizan2923New Zealand is also sadly underwater.
@@diegodankquixote-wry3242 what do you mean "sadly"?
@@heresy8384 yea
@@rooknizan2923 Except he speaks with an Australian accent, grew up & still lives in Australia in the lore.
Shounic then: “what if we gave sniper a visible laser?”
Shounic now: “here is why we could absolutely delete sniper from the game”
based, fuck sniper
The TF team are aware sniper could be removed, he's their first choice to remove.
@@PurpleColonel source my dad is a TF2 dev
@john-bl4bo Pretty sure it actually did get said by the devs. It's quoted in an Uncle Dane video about how he got to be at Valve HQ.
@@xenotype9349 from what i understand they said it as a joke. My point being that they will never remove sniper or any other class. That would be the laziest conceivable approach to fixing the game and a straight up middle finger to the players.
_Medic_ being the class that got the most average damage per minute increase from not having snipers around is a deeply interesting detail.
It's the Crusader's Crossbow. Having a chunky 75-damage bolt from across the map is no laughing matter, especially if it heals someone for 150 instead.
In the absence of a long-range specialist, Medic oddly becomes viable to be played as one. The phrase "Battle Medic," goes from a gag to a respected choice.
@@RdTrler In hindsight, that makes a lot of sense.
@@RdTrler
That would be interesting data.
How many people who played Sniper before, were playing Medic afterwards, as a sort of Sniper at Home with the crossbow? Getting their takes on that would be interesting.
If the results are that people who MUST snipe were enjoying playing crossbow medic, that's really interesting
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 Maybe try this experiment again but let huntsman snipers stay
@@aprinnyonbreak1290Or just in general how many people were picking medic more now that the biggest killers of medics (Sorry Spy mains, but you’re too busy harassing Engis and getting caught by Pyros) are gone.
Fun fact: Valve themselves actually said that if they were to ever remove a class they would remove Sniper
Let’s not remove our piss thrower
I’d really like the clip/video of that
@@skrubstar9056it's from an uncledane video where he talks about his experience at valve or something. So it's hearsay. Dane has no reason to lie about this mind you and everyone knows it's the truth anyway, but it's still relevant to be aware that there's no *official* source of that quote
@@sshuckleor maybe Dane was just joking
@@sshuckle some mf claimed that Robin Walker himself said that quote on record lol
it's really easy to fall for lies
I remember Uncle Dane mentioning that while he was at Valve a dev half joked that if a class were to be removed, it would be sniper. And I imagine if most people had to choose it would also be him just because he's so difficult to deal with unless you have another sniper dealing with them.
There’s also the bot crisis problem
Also bots would be way more manageable with no sniper
@@CAMSLAYER13 Spy with amby I guess. Or any class with crit hacks.
@@Flamme-Sanabi they just can't insta kill you in an instant the same way. You can out range and mostly avoid all the others fairly easily, even amby spies are pretty useless at long range. I think scout bots would be the next worse after sniper
@@arthurd.8766 *cheater
you find more cheaters now than bots
This seems like an interesting experiment to retry with other classes. What happens when only scout is banned? What happens when there are no heavies? What happens if engineer is no longer engi-here? What happens when spy leaves to go visit your mother? What happens when medic gets charged for his crimes and can no longer stay? What happens when Pyro leaves to get help with the insanity. What happens when Demo passes out drunk and can't help? What happens when soldier goes... home, I guess?
I don’t think medic is the only one who has committed crimes but has probably committed more atrocities than all of the other mercs combined
No medic is just regular tf2 gameplay.
@@Tirocoa average casual match
@@accountlol7409 I think he meant war crimes
@@TirocoaYou mean TF2 in Germany?
So banning sniper literally creates a utopia? My biases are once again confirmed
Nah, It’s too early to not be called a spy and get piss thrown at
Sorry but no, the game is way too nuanced to just remove a class and have it be perfectly fine in the long term
@@F0restcall In what negative aspect would removing sniper cause?, Heavy pocket spam?, Spy already exist for that with the YER or the Big earner speed makes it easier to trickstab them, but it's not onesided and it's totally dependant in how good the spy is at back/trickstab, and the heavy how good his aim his and awareness and ability to avoid trickstabs, rather than just sit in an corner waiting for the sniper to get sniped to go in, and an 2 player combination should be taken care with coordination with either everyone focusing them, or someone distract like pyro for the spy to go in.
Spy becomes alot stronger because now Jarate dosen't exist anymore, people that stand in sentries nest with Razorbacks now dosen't exist aside of defensive heavy players and pyros that teamworks with his engi.
Rocket Jumping becomes more viable because now the common threat of being quickscoped (Reverse Shooter or Direct hit aside) in an instant dosen't exist anymore.
Flanking now dont have the fear of an sniper just throwing piss and oneshotting 7/9 classes so it's more rewarding now.
Pyros now can stand in the open without instantly dying with no counterplay rather than spam scorch shot at the sniper just for him to pull the darwin shield that negates pyro.
Medics now can stand in the open abit more with the fear of getting focused by snipers 24/7 and therefore Ubers are more common now if nobody flanks the medics.
Heavies now can play the god damm game.
Enginners now can be more aggresive with their placements without the fear of snipers, and Demos and Soldiers exist and with Uber which is now more common can be used to take down more nest.
@@anstorner everything makes the game easier, less challenging, all of your arguments are short sited and fail to recognize the nuances of the game and the benefit that sniper provides to all of those situations, all of your arguments rely purely on the belief that every sniper hits every shot ever
@@F0restcall It only takes 1 shot to kill anybody since they do either 150, or fully charged an whopping 450 that oneshots an fully overheal heavy.
It dosent matter if you miss 80% of your bullets, those 20% hits are at least 80% kills and 20% inmediately force retreat to either spawn or dispenser.
Also, explain because u aren't providing anything about why sniper is an good thing.
Sniper fundamentally breaks the rules of the game, and his inclusion feels more like a genre necessity rather than him actually adding much to tf2.
I think some of sniper's unlocks do a better job of integrating the into tf2 than others, which is a shame because stock is so good and the 'fun to fight' side grades aren't necessary.
As a character though I do really like sniper and I think they add a lot personality wise.
I feel like in most games sniper is included as a genre necessity, a huge amount of games include a sniper for the sake of including a sniper and suffer for it
@@Arcavi0us It's really a shame I like his character so much, but honestly his unlocks only seem to make his weakness (close range) less fun to play against. The only rifle that feels fair to use is honestly the piss rifle.
@@brendan9286 the classic is the most fun and fair weapon imo, you get less damage and cant headshot you unless they are fully charged, and if they miss, they NEED to wait around 3-4 seconds to take their shots again, and if they do hit headshots then its deserved because missing is very risky
@@Arcavi0us that's actually a good idea, ban every primary except the Sydney sleeper
I feel like having average or mediocre snipers that miss a lot is not a big issue. But when a good sniper joins, even only one, it's instant fun killer on open maps like Harvest. It's simply infuriating to have no way to damage class at that range.
And some maps have large sight lines for snipers while also being right next to a resupply, it’s like valve intentionally made them like this for sniper to be as annoying as possible
Rockets? Spies? Charged stickies?
@@notgray88 headshot the soldier
Sniper just needs a pyro for defense
Headshot the demo before he gets near you
@@notgray88Rockets and grenades have both travel times and damage falloff. Sniper has neither issue. Spy can be entirely countered by coordination in comms.
@@anonymouslee8542 Stickies (what I specifically mentioned in my comment, not grenades) can be shot long distances and ramp up to 100% damage shortly after landing.
Alternative title: sniper went on a vacation and no-one wants him back
AKA Sniper was forced into retirement by lethal means.
Except for the sniper mains
Holy hell! New title just dropped!
spy in the corner plotting world domination
I kinda wish sniper had damage falloff. It would make him go from a long-range instant-delete to picking off vulnerable retreating opponents, or force him to go to more aggressive spots where he is more vulnerable.
This is the real problem because there are definitely ways to balance the situation that OTHER shooters have since adopted.
A hard reload animation that forces you out of zoom, the breathing mechanic which stifles quick scopes, laser sights, tracer rounds, making Sniper weapons more utility based. And I want to hold onto that last one, because his Jarate rifle is the ONLY Sniper alternate weapon that actually had a good idea. Everything else from the Bazaar Bargain to the Hitman's Heatmaker is just middling while still basically just being the default rifle but with more steps. Meanwhile you have this one funky rifle that serves a supportive role and encourages body shots; if they made its special feature being able to stay hard scoped between shots (this assuming tbe default was changed to take you out of scope) or functioning as a semi-automatic weapon that you don't have to chamber bullets with, it could have been much more reasonable. And the other rifles could have been other utility focused guns such as one that slows opponents or one that causes ragdolling or anything FUN. Imagine how quickly he's go from a class that everyone hates to one everyone loves because he could cause enemies to flop forward in a ragdoll in the middle of team fights while your own team is just spamming the laugh taunt.
@@Impalingthorn Having to reload is a good start.
@@ImpalingthornI’m in agreement of almost every point you made, except for the ragdoll\stun idea. Weapons that stifle another player’s ability to move, shoot, take actions, etc. are widely considered a miserable experience. I’ll list some examples:
People hate the short circuit for how easily it shuts down rockets, stickies, and pipes, which are supposed to be one of Engineer’s threats.
The Sandman was so reviled that Valve nerfed it into the ground. Now it just has a slow effect which can be bypassed.
People don’t think highly of the Natasha for the same reason as the Sandman.
Finally, the Razorback earned some scorn because it explicitly shuts down the entire point of Spy’s kit against the Sniper. Sure the answer is “just shoot ‘em” but it’s still just an object that serves only to eliminate one specific class’ strengths while doing nothing else.
With those things in mind, imagine the OG Sandman, except it hitscans, does more damage with no falloff, and is the passive effect of a class’ primary weapon rather than a melee weapon’s alt fire.
People would HATE it.
Falloff only bodyshot, not headshot.
Not that headshot falloff would even be possible, considering how Crits work.
Alternatively, like, a damage ramp up thing, take a large chunk of damage of quick scopes, but leaving high charge shots only lightly changed, since a skilled sniper who can reliably nail tons of quicks completely changes how the sniper is balanced (ie, undoes it) though this is just me trying to think of how to fit his playstyle in without too much changes, along with thinking on a change that could weaken the bot problem from a bit ago
sniper is the worst class.
he is the only class that you can NEVER count on for anything.
most of the other classes tend to be next to you, so you can count on them for help, as for sniper you have no idea where he is looking at any given moment.
you also can't trust him to push the payload or capture a point, let alone defend the payload and the point.
you can't even count on his jarate.
Imagine a world where a sniper uses sydney sleeper, jarate, bushawaka. Pushes the cart, marks your opponents mini crits, extinguishes you.
@@TheLostPhoenixOfTheSkies the sydney sleeper got nerfed.
as for the jarate, he needs to be close to me, and he is usually hidding in the back lines.
I think the heatmap statistics were more indicative that players were getting sniped in random spots less as opposed to actually playing around chokes more. Players might have still been playing flank and peripherals but just not been dying there as much.
Sniper forces players to play around his sightline. When sniper is enabled, more players move through flanks (and therefore die) as they are able to recognize that the main sightlines will get you killed.
It’s more apparent in the upward last graphic. Players still played in flanks after sniper was disabled, but deaths were obviously more concentrated on main choke points as movement through flanks was now no longer a necessity.
Be mindful that this is a heat map of player deaths in general, and not just sniper kills. The most this map does is demonstrate where players tend to be attacking and defending the hardest. Not so much that snipers are getting random picks everywhere.
@@sn0ipe333 This is honestly a kind of unverifiable thesis without the data of where people walked prior to thier deaths
@@no-lifenoah7861 Yeah. I doubt shounic can handle that much work on his own, but in future, similar experiments he might want to also add "heattracers" for the places people walk. If he made it with demos he might want to just release them for others to compile statistics.
@@slyseal2091 theoretically you should be able to get quite a lot of data by just tracing the lines people walked throughout their whole life, like the hero's journey feature, and overlaying them all on top of eachother
@@no-lifenoah7861 There's 24 players per team. ~20 minutes per map. Following every single player for the full extent of their movement would mean you'd spend 480 minutes, or 8 hours per map. Obviously you'd speed it up, but then it's a question of how fast of a movement speed your comprehension can keep up with. In addition comes actually making the notes. Shounics data consists of 96 instances of playing his 6 chosen maps. Even if he played it at 16 times speed, which should reduce it to half an hour to watch every player (uninterrupted) per map, you'd still be looking at 48 hours of just looking through footage. This just isn't a one man job.
*game instantly becomes fun*
fr
Finally
Team Fortress 3
@@GermaphobeMusic After 30 years in development...
i think you forgot that pyro exists
@@Ashley3AndKnuckles scorch shot across entire map indeed
Sniper being banned and spy thus getting more kills and being played more is a testament to how spy actually doesn't foil sniper because sniper pros can hear one coming at 3 kilometers away and the fact that the Razorback exists lol.
Although I guess that with other classes being able to walk more confidently on chokes, that might embolden players and make them slightly more vulnerable to spies.
I assume you mean razorback, darwins danger shield only denies pyros
@@NapoleonicGeese Yeah, chaged it just now, thanks for ltmk
"The game didn't really change, it just somewhat felt less frustrating"
who would of thought removing sniper from tf2 makes the game actually fun and makes *team* fortress 2 more *team* based?
Let’s not remove our favorite piss thrower
@@normaldude7924 literally nobody's favourite piss thrower, scout's cum jar is funnier
@@normaldude7924 why not
@@Moter. because no more piss
@@normaldude7924 hes funny as a character but annoying in game and honestly throws off the balance completely as even a single good sniper can shut off an entire push. A good soldier can be dealt with eventually but against a good sniper it just goes awfully
I'd argue that the experiment needs to run a lot longer to see the new "meta" emerge. I believe the difference is minimal because most players didn't adapt to the vacuum left behind. I believe we'd see a much more drastic difference if the experiment ran for a month or so. An example I'd cite, is how Spy used to be very oppressive back when people weren't used to him but is now considered very weak as people have formed patterns to help avoid him (voice chat, spy check, checking your back etc...). I'd expect medic to become very strong, as he no longer has to worry about sightlines and spy is a less reliable pick class. The ability to heal over-time should become more valuable if you take away the high damage single shot class.
Counterargument about the medic thing:
Random crits
Otherwise I've got nothing
I think that spy is a good example. I always remember that old Fawfuls Minion video where Spy was considered OP
Yeah
1. This was such a short time period
2. This was done on a single community server
While the results here can't be disregarded, it would be interesting to see this on a wider pool, say Valve casual servers with the same stats tracked (obviously wouldn't be possible, unless Valve were interested in doing the study? 50/50 Sniper ban?). Would be interesting to see the difference there. If shounic were to implement a second server that disabled sniper for one year and was advertised heavily, I feel like that would have enough data to give more accurate results.
I do agree, because average sniper and good sniper are two different things.
maps werent measured neither was player skill. there many have been little effect simply because the snipers werent any good or the experiment had barely any sniper maps
My question. Did you have any REALLY, ABSURDLY good snipers playing in the baseline test with him allowed?
I ask because REALLY good snipers are VERY oppressive, to the point they ruin games. I am very curious what a heatmap with a good sniper looks like.
+1. A no-lifer sniper is unbelievably busted to the point that if one of them types in the chat like a 13 year old, you question every single decision that went into putting a sniper into a mid-range shoot game (happened to me)
I've never seen anything like it with the other classes, although scorch shot and *especially* phlog pyros are sub-human
@@spacebassist theyrr sub human but not too hard to take down with no airblast
@@HibHab69 any class can be very oppressive if somebody is really good at the class
@@spacebassist I actually only ever use the scorch shot because as a Pyro without the ability to aim flares like a god, it's my only real option against Snipers. If Sniper didn't exist, I'd default to stock shotty.
i think the fact spy gets buffed by snipers removal is really neat, like, in the absence of a super easy and safe specialist pick class, people are willing to take the risk of spy for the benefit of the team. Weirdly, balancing spy. He's pushed more into his role and he takes it in stride.
Yup. The most important buff spy needs is nerfing sniper
Anything you can do I can better
The best way to buff spy is to remove the class that can do almost everything he does but way faster and risk free
Can we also get Valve to run this experiment in casual for around 50 years? I’d gladly partake in that.
yes I support this idea
I don’t want the sniper banned I want the sniper Rifle banned because I play sniper with only smg’s especially the carabine
Calling sniper op is a big skill issue.
@@Bl0kymttNo point keeping him if he had no primary. He could get converted into a new class though.
@@stefanandrejevic2570Skill issue to not exist in the sightline of another player?
It turns out that removing the "shotgun" in the "rock paper scissors" of this game's balance actually makes it fun.
Bit ironic the shotgun was none of the classes that have one.
It's not even hard rock paper scissors, a Engineer doesn't win by default against Scout just because he picked Engineer
A Spy doesn't win by default against a Heavy (then again, Spy winning is rare).
Sniper throws that out of the fucking window.
I didn't get this comment tho. What does it mean to rock paper scissors?..
@@LawreAnimationsSo y'know how Pokèmon typing works?
@@vivelespatat2670 a sniper doesn't win by default against scout
I wonder if Degroot's Keep would change more, given that Sniper is one of the few classes that can deal damage at a range in that map. Not that any minor change to Degroot's Keep gameplay would be noticeable - it's gonna be a mess no matter what.
Banning Sniper would cause an increase in Medics and Scouts, for the ranged damage; though it would probably be more Medics being played for the consistency
i want a trade plaza server with no snipers
No more random instakills outta nowhere? I'm all for that.
Also hi
Eh no one really cares about degroot keep
@@stefanandrejevic2570everyone does legit best gamemode
Wow, turns out removing the one class that can thrive entirely on long distance engagements in a game where every single mechanic encourages you to fight at short to medium range helps balance out the game.
Sniper should’ve been the spy in the case where his insta kill is well earned and hard to get. Spy has to go invisible, avoid all crossfire, attempt to disguise, learn how to backstab and trickstab, and pray to do well. Sniper has to stand in the back of the map and click twice (obviously there are good sniper players who do more, but that just makes them even more unfun to play against).
Optimal sniper gameplay is never approaching, which is why I don't think any sniper killstreak is worth anything.
My core complaint with sniper is simply how little you actively engage with them in the game. If you know a sniper is watching a sight line the best method to deal with it is just to not peak that sightline, which forces stalling and unfun camping. Aside from that you typically get killed by a sniper without even knowing they are there, or you use a high mobility class to rush them and burst them down before they can do anything, which is still risky because they could still just instantly kill you as most classes especially after a blast jump.
This, I believe, is the fundamental problem with sniper as a class.
There's just no way for other classes to counter him effectively. There are really only three responses to sniper: if you're a scout, soldier, pyro, demoman, heavy, engineer, or medic, you just have to avoid anywhere the sniper might be looking; if you're sniper, you have to outsnipe the enemy sniper and kill him; and if you're a spy, you have to sneak up and pick the enemy sniper off.
Compare this with counterplay in TF2 otherwise. In every other scenario, there is a way for each class to counter each other class, in various different unique ways. Say a scout and a soldier both take the stair flank on Upward, and run into eachother. The soldier shoots the scout, but the scout can dodge the rocket; the soldier can counter this by using the direct hit, or getting good enough at predicting the scout's movement to land a shot when he lands after his double jump. The scout can then realize that the soldier is predicting his movement, and, say, use the Atomizer to surprise the soldier with a third jump.
Sniper's counterplay, by comparison, is just...really dull. And bad.
@@pieguy6992 basically the only counter to the sniper if... he is bad.
the counter to this argument is that hiding from snipers and finding flanking route is part of the game. It's the snipers' role to not deep engage and provide a backline so that the game don't just become a head on a brawl. It diversify the gameplay. Whether this make the game better or worse is a matter of balancing with map designs (adding more covers and flanks on maps, new weapons etc.)-- but this lack of engagement is intentional.
There are a few counters to sniper-- a good spy, pyro with a scorch shot or detonator. They're also basically useless if they're rushed, encounter multiple enemies.
@@sagganuts18 a good spy needs to go all the way over to the sniper and then if they have the razor back you need to hit 3 revolver shots which is more than enough time for snipers to quickscope. Pyro isnt much better since the darwins invalidates any of its options. Rushing them is hard since they can get you whilst you're approaching. Multiple enemies means that sniper is so overpowered that you need several people just to match 1 good sniper.
An interesting suggestion I saw was to implement *reverse* damage fall-off for all sniper rifles. Basically, the closer you are to an enemy, the less damage you do to them. It gives snipers a *"hard counter"* tactic that is guaranteed to work because he is the only class in the game who can eliminate his own weaknesses.
The main issue with sniper is that he is the only class in the game that has weaknesses that can be completely eliminated with just aiming well. Bad at close range? Nah, if you just hit all your headshots, you are guaranteed to win every fight at every range. Is it an unrealistic assumption? Yes, but it is also something purely exclusive to sniper. It's the main reason why bots are such an issue and *only* play on sniper. Sniper has no hard counter, no matter what. The only counter to a sniper, is themselves, their own skill level. Once you eliminate that, they are effectively invincible. Sniper is the only class in this game, who theoretically has complete control on how hard they are countered. You as a player, are not banking on your own skill and knowledge to beat a sniper, you are relying on how bad they are at the game.
Heavies are slow and can be outmaneuvered, moreover, they suck at long range and only exceed in ambush tactics. Scouts are squishy and can be defeated with pure burst damage, like the direct hit or a heavy with good tracking. Pyros suffer at range and like the heavy, only exceed in ambush tactics. Demos suffer at close-range, put yourself right in a demo's face and their combat options are immediately halved. Etc, etc.
Sniper is a fucking anomaly. There are no counter tactics that always work against him because they can all be immediately eliminated if he just hit his headshots. You can argue using spy, but you can even counter spy by just being good at the game and having good auditory awareness. Or, fuck it, just put on the razerback. Sure, a spy can shoot you, but it takes them three shots to kill you while you can 360 and no-scope-destroy them in less than a second. It effectively puts you and the spy on a near 1:1 playing field because although they have the element of surprise, the sniper has the element of being able to instantly fucking delete them in one mouse-click. Assuming the spy is using the stock revolver, a sniper has 3 seconds to no-scope a spy shooting them before they die.
The sniper needs a gameplay disadvantage that is always in play regardless of what the player's skill level. This is something that is present in every class but the sniper. No matter how good a scout is, they can never increase their health bar. No matter how good a demo is, they cannot artificially improve their close-range capabilities. No matter how good a heavy is, they cannot improve their overall mobility without a paying a price. A sniper can win every close-range encounter by hitting his headshots or just using the jarate bushwacka combo.
You can tell the increase of Medic pickers the moment Sniper was removed, it's almost as if there is an indirect correlation here somewhere...
maybe but also keep in mind almost every class got picked more because there was one less option to pick
hooooly shit i remember u from wan show timestamps
thank u sm for ur service 🙏🏻
An increase in Medics and yet I get the feeling they'll all still ignore me when I'm about to die.
Oh my god you are right! I never connected the dots before. All the sniper mains are secretly medic mains!
Sniper is the sole reason I gave up on Casual TF2, I'm spending 90-95% of my playtime on VsH/Freak Fortress servers now.
I think deleting sniper from the game would singlehandedly solve the botting problem
Other classes cheat too
It wouldn't solve the problem, it would just make it more subtle.
@@apchistuzIf another class cheats you have a chance of outplaying them by using corners or distance, this isn’t possible with sniper bots
I've long felt that the issues with Sniper could be fixed by making him a projectile class with the Huntsman being the baseline option. An outdoors bushman big game hunter who uses crossbows, longbows, spearguns, etc can make thematic/artstyle sense and also adds a massive difference in required skillsets. Give his weapons Crusader's Crossbow-style reverse-falloff maybe, or rework headshots so that spamming chokepoints with arrows doesn't become an annoying area denial tool.
Projectile-based design for Sniper not only would basically obliterate the concept of aimbotting as a spammable bot army to ruin quickplay, (As easily, at least - There ARE projectile-based hacking programs but they're far from as flawless as a hitscan aimbot) it also would make Sniper fit more comfortably into TF2's central design ethos which promotes projectiles over hitscan weapons - especially looking at the glaring fact that aside from Sniper's primaries, there are ZERO other long-range hitscan weapons in TF2.
That's what I was thinking about. Making the sniper rifles shoot (undeflectable) projectiles instead of being hitscanners. Maybe the machina could still function as the vanilla rifle, but have a slower firing speed because of sniper not being fit enough to handle the recoil of a fucking Railgun, especially if he's standing straight.
Thing is... Soldier and Demo already are projectile based, and have high AOE damage potential.
Those two classes already shut down chokepoints, but for whole groups instead of singular targets one by one.
ngl I love playing battle medic with the long range crossbow so if they make sniper a slow projectile class I’d be down to play him
I agree.
Projectiles have a linear path but travel time, bullets have deviation making then less useful at range.
Having them follow the same rules as everyone else makes interacting with them fun.
TF3
After the '94 Port Arthur massacre Sniper was forced to give up his guns, he was permitted a crossbow as he is a registered member of an archery organisation.
But if you closed your eyes
Does it almost feel like
Nothing's changed at all
The good ending: Sniper removed from TF2
Feels like... nothing at all, nothing at all, nothing at all
But if you closed your eyes
Does it almost feel like
You’ve been here before, oh
How am I gonna be an optimist about this?
How am I gonna be an optimist about this?
We were caught up and lost
In all of our vices
If you have the data, it would be interesting to hear how medic actually did, since damage isn't a good representation of how well a medic is doing. Things like healing done, ubers used/dropped, and deaths would be useful
We don't have the data but it's like unclogging your nose, you don't have to randomly crouch just because you have a sense of impending doom, or act like a bhopping spinbot when crossing a sightline.
when you die from sniper its usually not a "i was doing something wrong" or "i couldve played better". its just a 20 second penalty for being in the open. sniper makes you anxious about movement because u can just instantly die for no reason based on where they choose the stand. arguably something you dont want in a team shooter game at all...ever
Especially a movement shooter where you need to be in the open where there's the space to make use of said movement
I was once a medic having a melee duel with a sniper I jumpscared, and another damn sniper headshotted me. Like I rather of been random critted or crocheted at this point.
Heavy stacking as a result of Sniper being disabled feels like a given until you realize how much likelier it is for you to die to anything else.
Spies, Demos, Soldiers, Scouts, it really feels like Sniper is a boogeyman for Heavy only because of that fear of a 450 headshot. It doesn't really hurt Heavies at all compared to a Kritz Demo spamming Stickybombs into a crowd of Heavies.
I think this data might be a bit skewed since although snipers are gone, people still do autopilot stuff as if sniper is still there
It's like expecting instincts to go away over a few days after years of avoiding sniper
@@spacebassist you can consciously override your instincts bruh we arent ants
@@KicksPregnantWomen okay, I meant habits then, gameplay knowledge that's built in large part around avoiding sniper fire that's suddenly outdated because snipers don't exist. People can adapt but they're not gonna know the best way to play or invent a new meta after 3 days of sniper-less tf2
Muscle memory is definitely a thing and so taking certain routes will also become habitual.
The people that shounic plays with for those experiments are also not your average casual player too.
The game becomes slightly more fast paced when it's impossible to get deleted from across the entire map (except for stray crit projectiles)
Sounds better IMO
the data doesn't support that conclusion. kills, deaths, and damage per minute remained nearly identical, as stated in the video. you literally just pulled this conclusion out of your ass.
Projectiles are slow and crits are fun
It shows we easily could and should nerf sniper into the ground, so he is not hitscan, ideally slightly less junky delayless huntsman type projectile with an arc and slight falloff as well, so its less potent and pulls sniper closer to the fight, just that it requires true accuracy on actual hitbox unlike huntsman(and is a bit faster). All other hitscan weapons have massive falloff. Ambassador got nerfed for being sniper like. Sniper should be nerfed similarily to this, just not so excessively.
That way it would be more fun while he exists. Eventually for sniper mains too as it will be more satisfactory, like actual sniper games.
@@Kacpa2 We could also take inspiration from splatoon, which had the ingame equivalent of a sniper rifles called "chargers" which had laser sights which would alert you if there's a sniper.
Back in the day I used to play on servers with spy and sniper limited to 2, and it very much felt like a buff to both teams. There's never been any real (human) sniper rush strat in TF2, but we've all seen games where the team with 5 snipers mysteriously always loses...
I don't mind being killed by spys because even if I'm playing a class that has a disadvantage to him I still have the chance to counter.
With sniper it's basically avoid sight lines and hope my teams own sniper is good enough to take him out since sniper is sinpers only consistent counter.
so the counterplay is literally "just dont leave spawn" because the sniper can see the entire map if you avoid his sightlines, he just moves slowly forward
It wouldn’t change much in the minds of most players since the interaction between sniper and every other class is minimal at best. Replacing sniper with a random roll of the dice that kills you instantly would feel the same to most players.
roll of the dice implies you actually have a chance of not dying normally
@@fortnitesexman there is a chance of survival against sniper but it's rare and you need to be near the last 20% of the map that isn't covered by the sniper in order to not die quickly after that
Pajamapants why did you change your profile pic
@@ihatethatyoutubedisplaysyo8106 you can't wear the same pajamas for too long
The game becomes slightly more fun and chaotic and people can PLAY and go around more. _Who could've predicted this?_
Not sniper mains probably.
@@temkin9298 Based on responses to comments, can confirm. I don't know if it's just sniper mains being salty though, but a lot of them are throwing around Git Gud™.
@@thegrayinthefield8764The pure irony in telling people to Git Gud against a class that doesn’t even fight anyone and is almost in no risk of dying at all.
The thing about sniper is he’s the only long range pick class in the game balanced around the skill of a single player in a game fundamentally about mid to close range team gameplay.
Tf2 is game about class and team interaction. The only time sniper interacts with people is when he’s killed or being killed. There’s no “fight” to it. Unless you’re playing a flanker your only counter to a good sniper is “bruh don peak” not to mention against a really good sniper (Snowb is probably the crowing example) you’re shit out of luck considering he can point blank delete his supposed counters.
Hell even spy the other solo pick class gets more interaction due to being focused on close range misdirection.
Also, you can counter spy main ability to insta kill you by learning right movement tactic. Sniper headshot depends upon snipers ability to aim, not you.
@@niga3487You can move to throw off snipers aim just as you can move to throw off scouts aim
@@HeDronHeDronHedron My point stands. HIS ABILITY to AIM.
@@niga3487 That's not how it works lmao. You see where he's putting his crosshair, and move the other way.
@@HeDronHeDronHedron This mf has 0 hours in tf2
Honestly a little interested to see if Snipers were forced to only use the classic, or a sniper rifle that acts like one in tfc with a little more power
More power but a much bigger trade-off for that charge-up, not being able to move in return; even then though I think sniper's damage should be nerfed a bit. He's a "support" class that if played well (or played in a skub-ish way) can often times outperform the other classes carte-blanche in terms of damage. The point to the class should be either knocking high-health classes down a peg in order to force them back or assist the team in killing them, or punishing them for overextending by killing them as they try to leave (ie, supporting them). As it is right now a competent sniper can cripple or shut-down a push by his lonesome more effectively than an engineer without even needing to be there or put in too much effort.
Another interesting idea I heard/had was making sniper's bullet much faster projectiles instead of just hitscan. Combined with a reduction in damage it would enable the faster classes a bit better odds in trying to juke or outrun a shot, without as much punishment if they made a mistake. Similarly it wouldn't take away the sniper's ability to call that kind of bluff entirely, but would still demand more effort on the sniper to make that kind of shot, which in turn might make sniper players consider who they're shooting at more carefully (maybe if you also lowered their ammo reserve).
I'd say implement a more limited version. Requiring somewhere between 20%-50% charge before headshots are enabled.
I'd need to be clear on what the insta-killing potential (if any) of the sniper rifles from the Quake mod or GoldSrc standalone are like before embarking on such an idea, since it seems certain it can headshot at any charge unlike TF2's rendition...
@@barrag3463 personally I feel like charged-shots are worse than quickscopes, "having a low amount of time to react" is not a good excuse because the sniper also has to react to you, as well as charged bodyshots sometimes being extremely annoying.
@@TeeV479 counterpoint, it’s 10x easier for the sniper to see you before you see them.
Not surprised by the result data tbh. It was probably very nice for players to play as usual without worrying about getting sudden death when peaking out to certain long areas and Heavy mains can fight more confidently.
Heavy has one of his counters (that he has little or no way of dealing with) and yet he didn't become oppressive. I quite like the concept of that change- heavy gets stuffed in competitive 9s a lot, just because he's a slow moving, often nearly immobile target. Give him a little something for the effort of playing against an organized team
@@rainbowturtle Heavy is still a sitting duck for demos and soldiers, who now have literally 0 counter.
who?
@@somerandomgamer8504 "literally 0 counter" just switch to pyro and right click on the slow moving projectiles to send them back
@@somerandomgamer8504 Literally 0 counter for demos and soldiers now? Did I read that correctly?
It should be mentioned that sniper and engineer are area denial classes.The engineer is balanced around being predictable but sniper is balanced around your ability to aim. The best engineers will try to be as unpredictable as possible and will be able to handle multi tasking under pressure. The sniper needs to listen for spies and look out for counter snipers, mostly just snipers.
There is no practical skill ceiling for sniper unlike other classes as shown by the bots, which I believe is the issue with sniper.
There is a practical skill ceiling for the sniper, the thing is sniper doesn't have an 2nd skill giving it a low ceiling.
Scout not only needs to line their shot they need to close the gap, Soldier needs to predict where you're going. These 2nd skills give you counter play but also require more skill on the class itself. You must aim, move, and predict.
Sniper is what happens when your entire class is based on 1 skill and that skill determines everything.
Please more videos of BANNING classes , this thing is so good bro
Should've added Wutville to the map rotation
It's interesting to see the heatmaps showing that the fighting revolved much around around chokepoints than before, though it does seem to make flank routes a bit redundant.
They're not redundant, if anything they are now more effective as actually flanks if the team fight is centered on the choke
@@justinbarton717 tru tru, but one key reason for using flank routes is to avoid snipers, which then spreads out the team. if gone, it allows for convergence for multiple players, as seen with heavy steamrolling on the cart
Not really though. The issue with sniper is that he forced players to take flank routes. This is especially prevalent in highlander, where Ubers are often through flanks partially to milk as long as possible and also make sure nobody gets dropped before the Uber is used.
Removing sniper saw more players playing through choke points and objectives, but there were still a healthy amount of movement through flanks.
A better conclusion would be that the removal of sniper put less of an emphasis on flank routes and saw them becoming more of alternative paths to take rather than a main route to the objective.
Flanks became actual alternatives routes rather than the main ones.
@@vivelespatat2670 But at same time why bother with a flank if all there is to deal with in the choke is really the engi and soldier/demo spam
One uber is enough I guess
It's what I expected, since Snipers role is mainly to deny a large area as long as they have the skill to capitalize on opportunity. Their potential is much greater and more frustrating than other classes.
Removing Sniper would be one of the best Buffs spy could ever get.
Everything spy does sniper does better. Get rid of sniper, and you get a pick class that actually requires a pretty high skill floor and skill ceiling, with plenty of game sense and knowledge of mechanics.
I'd love a 24/7 server group that's just tf2 with no sniper, honestly. I like casual but the times I've gone onto a game and joined to 5 snipers on my team and someone with edgy cosmetics sitting in a corner ignoring the objective for strange headshots on the enemy team has always made me feel like I'd have more fun just not seeing sniper.
ive been praying for a server to come around thats 24/7 2fort or hightower (either one idk) with miniguns, medics, and snipers disabled. Just straight up combat with no crutch classes or healers to make it annoying
@@DannyCheezits i just wanna play casual without getting sniped by the x slayer
yeah im so sad that this apparently isnt a common enough sentiment for someone to run a no sniper server
hopefully this video inspires someone to make one, cuz i'd honestly play tf2 more often if someone did
git gud
No joke, I’d love this for like a week. I never liked that “Sniper counters Heavy”, but there’s nothing that really ‘counters’ Sniper. Plus, imagine how useless all the bots become when they can’t headshot.
Sniper counters everything, while nothing counters sniper. (Nothing you can really achieve on your own without dying first, battalion's backup and vacc are both counters but you're likely dead to someone else before you pull that off)
Perhaps spies should gain headshot immunity while cloaked (even when flickering).
@@danialrafidalso sniper can do a good chunk of a batallion soldiers HP with full charge body shots
@@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8Yeah, but the backup both completely negates Crits and reduces damage by 30%, so he's still completely fine
@@_kaorudreemurrbody shots don't deal crits, ans the damage reduction is 35%, but anyway, a fully charged one would deal 78 damage, a significant chunk of their health
Most classes in TF2 have a sphere of influence. It's the area around them where they can reasonably do their maximum damage. It might actually be a cone, considering field of view, but I like to think of it as a sphere because players are encouraged to look around.
Sniper doesn't really have a sphere. He has a line with infinite range. Within this line he can kill almost every class in the game instantly.
Whenever the sphere and the line intersect, an engagement happens. If the sphere overlaps the line's origin -- the sniper -- the sniper will probably die. Otherwise the sniper will probably live. That's really the only metric for how sniper engagements go.
The problem is that every class in TF2 has a sphere, but sniper has a line.
While the influence of sniper having infinite range can be an issue, I believe the main problem is the existence of a hitscan weapon that instakills
Then there's the fact that Sniper is the only class with no skill ceiling. The better you get the more effective you are, and there is no point where that stops. There's only so much skill you can get with every other class before getting better just isn't really noticeable most of the time. Bots are only a problem because they essentially cannot miss and can just headshot non-stop to delete anything in their line of sight.
This is a really interesting and compelling model for sniper interactions. A bit simple perhaps but it neatly isolates why sniper can feel out of place, everyone else has a sphere, sniper has a line.
When any other two class makes an engagement, they're usually right around the border of each other's sphere of influence so they can properly react to what's about to happen next. With sniper, the only classes that can properly "engage" them in a sense are flank classes (who had to way overextend in some cases to even see the sniper), spy (who had to make dozens of engagement with most other classes to get to the destination), and other snipers.
The risk of engaging with a sniper is just way too daunting to make the rewards worth it, which is a fucking wild perspective when you consider the reward is to stop a potential insta-gib to absolutely anyone on the sniper's sight lines
This just adds more evidence to my theory that sniper is overpowered on a fundamental level. A long range class does not belong in a game of mid to close range.
I think a longer-term experiment would be needed to really tell how Sniper influences the game, as well as one with a more diverse set of players, as generally on a community server like this you'll only be getting more experienced players. It would take a lot longer for the impact of no Sniper to truly set in as what classes and weapons do better are more thoroughly explored. For instance, raining stickies as Demo with the Base Jumper has its biggest counterplay removed, which may make it more viable of a strategy. Sentry guns would also be easier to maintain when placed in open positions with Sniper gone. It's much more than just who picks what classes and how often they die. A lot of changes would take time to be realized and would be harder to observe from the numbers alone.
I also think there's likely a lot of bias in the participants. After all, people joining for this are people who want to play without Sniper.
@@Awesomeness-iz3dh Or people wanting to help Shounic test... Because they're his fans.
Your bias is showing.
@@schnek8927 or people who want to play without sniper… because Shounic already did a test on nerfing snipers. Let he who is without bias shoot the first bullet
For the Base Jumping Demo, wrangled Sentries will still work, and sentries still get fucked over by Soldiers lobbing rockets at them from a distance if Sniper isn’t there to do that.
Finally, a comment that gets that 3 days is not enough time to develop a new meta
Honestly any Heavy main should have known before the expiriment ever started that there are already by far enough things keeping Heavy in check that he doesn't need sniper to do it.
demos, soldiers, good scouts, better heavies, medics, rat engineers. basically every class is throwing something in a challenge, especially spy, the class that makes you spin 360 every second unless you want to type nasty things in chat about his family
@@vaseslavy8516 But I want to type nasty things in chat about a kunai user's family! Even if I don't main heavy!
Yeah but those don't exist, except Joey.
@@manchungus3486exception Being pyro
Valve pls buff heavy(and give him fire damage vonurability
Tf2 devs overestimated the strength of heavy,
It would make bots instantly less prevalent. Sure you can still get bots but they will be counterable
Love the effort put into data visualization here. Thanks a lot for taking the time
"It became a more intense struggle for RED to maintain control"
I feel like this needed to be examined more, specifically on the impact of pacing.
By concentrating fights around the major chokes more frequently I feel like it puts a bit more inordinate pressure on a defending team to hold back enemies before that 1 big push, whereas with sniper and deaths being more scattered, he acts as more of a pressure release valve.
Yeah that’s actually really interesting. Sniper really does work as a way to keep big pushes from happening too quickly.
he followed it up by saying blu also struggled with this
Uber may have to do something with this, since sniper isnt there the medicine man probably always had the ability to uberpush trough chokes
This interpretation of the data points in the other direction of the alleged commenter consensus that its fine if sniper goes away. Red could (in theory) become more stressful and therefore less fun when you have 1 less pick class to alleviate push pressure.
Similarly, the casual meta could lean far more heavily into uber pushes than it does now since Medics are more free
@@KicksPregnantWomen That's already Blu's main game plan, and the key difference in attack/defense balance is that Red needs to be constantly holding the enemy back while Blu only needs to break through once for each choke.
the footage of the non-sniper games looked so much more fun and active than games on these maps usually are
Sounds like a skill issue
@@PastaCool sounds like a going outside issue
@@PastaCool maximilianmus pfp; opinion invalidated
That sounds more like you just have bad lobbies, mate.
@@ryza7760 get his ass.
Who woulda guessed that removing the class that punishes you for stepping out of line(literally) from a movement game would make it more fun
tf2 never was a movement game, get good.
@@shallowgravess too stupid to airstrafe?
@@PotaraP i main medic
@@PotaraP having movement in the game does not mean that it's primary gameplay focus is movement. bet you main nothing.
@@shallowgravessyou plead the 5th?
Honestly, if sniper was renamed to "Hunter" and given like 4 more huntsman-like bows that all differ in gameplay would be pretty fun.
I think the only thing that changes about removing sniper is that your deaths will feel more warranted and less infuriating. You can go around without having to worry that there's a one-shot class hiding in a weird place that will kill you while you had no time to react to it. It also would remove a lot of fear from chokepoints because players would know that if they die, it's from threats they can see coming and can react to. Yet, they could still die as often, but without having to cower and worry about a sniper around every corner. All in all, it mostly plays on the players' mentality, making them feel like the matches went better only because they can't classify their death as "bullshit" as often as they can with good snipers around.
Beo if you’re out in the open and get snipped, thats on you bro. Its really not that hard to avoid headshots even in the open stop huffing copium
@@dez1448 but what do you do when your only way to the point is though the sightline? Some players are so good that they are nearly aimbot and will make the game unplayable.
@@Ballingballer3443 switch classes to counter him
@@dez1448 Sniper main detected.
@@ybned-ed8rz Which class? Spy? You know a good sniper won't get himself backstabed, and he can still quickscope you, if the enemy team hase 1 or 2 pyro, you're just fucked. And imagine having to switch to a different class just to counter 1 enemy
What the increase in kill distance on pyro tells me is that they are getting a lot more flare kills, which make sense. If they don't have to worry about sightlines they are a lot more free to either spam down sightlines themselves or just take more peeks down them to fire an incidental flare.
Your vids are always so interesting, one day it's a weird glitch and the next it's an experiment like this. Don't even really play TF2 anymore but always look forward to checking these out.
Heat maps and damage, extra data in general is a very nice touch, helps visualize it better-
I can't begin to imagine how you managed to gather it, especially the heat maps.
very good job 👍
Only thing I can think of to add - KILLER positions should also have been recorded, if possible, and you could combine the two into a "killing line heatmap"
I feel like seeing 2000-unit-long sniper sightlines would make the impact of Sniper more obvious
It would also point out the most obvious problem with Sniper's design - other classes can't fend him off from the distances where he's effective, plus he's not defenseless when you get close. It's like walking into a revved up Heavy in terms of the damage difference should both players land their shots.
Deleting Sniper makes the game better?????
Who could have foreseen this???????????????????????????
Sniper had been banned.
And everyone lived happily ever after
I think the death heatmap spread highlights the fact that the game changes to be more organized without snipers because nobody's worrying about suddenly not being able to play the game for 10 seconds + a full run back to the front, due to absolutely no fault of your own, just that you were pushing the cart and nobody was specifically suppressing the sniper threat. Especially with a really really absurdly good sniper on the other team. I think that's a good change that isn't necessarily shown in the other statistics
I had the opposite impression. It seems like removing sniper makes flank routes completely unappealing to most classes.
Which makes sense, why walk your heavy all the way through the flank if pushing choke is both faster and just as safe? What reason does your soldier and demo have to walk around the entire team, just to kill the medic? Just do it from the choke, your team can cover you. Only really Scout/Spy/very rarely soldier would have a reason to touch the flank, and it's only to go for a medic pick. So it effectively just makes 90% of the map completely irrelevant for any real strategy.
I think with professional players in this setting and more time, this could change but from a base observation that seems to be what's happening. The flanks are becoming highly deincentivized, because there's no real reward for being there. The reason flankers do their thing is to avoid both power classes, and the sniper. Go for sniper on backlines, or try and sneak onto the medic while their team is paying attention to choke.
As a flank main, this brings me great pain.
@@nvvv_ This is an extremely good point
@@nvvv_This is a good thing, flanks aren’t supposed to be where most players travel through, they’re supposed to be alternative routes you can take to get around the enemy. Sniper makes flanks so congested that flankers have a much harder time getting around the enemy, thus making flanks a necessary waste of time for classes who shouldn’t be there and an unreliable/dangerous route for classes that should be there. This makes flanking classes almost always worse than their front-line counterparts. Pyro is relegated to an almost completely defensive role, Spy is practically useless, and Scout has basically become a front-line class, rather than the flanker role he was intended for.
@@nvvv_ it makes the flanks actual flanks not the main route because the choke is being oppressed by snipers
@@emilianozamora399 Its not that most people go flank because of sniper? DO you see that in pubs? you dont lol. Flank routes are just an alternative route. it shouldnt be considered an unviable route for combo players.
Yeah one of those notes sums it up.
Snipers sitting practically outside of the action, in some maps(especially harvest)it becomes "tunnel the sniper before you can actually play" minigame which is largely waste of time for both participants
Not to mention bots. Imagine a world where there’s no Sniper - who are they going to make a bot for, Medic? Gonna make yourself an autoaim script for Heavy? The initial game of ‘kick the bot’ would be gone.
@@BlueShellshock Ambassador spy headshotting does 2-3 shot most classes depending on range but the time it and an auto aiming heavy takes is a far cry from a sniper’s OHKO
@@BlueShellshock I've seen bots of every class, so yeah, medic bots do exist.
Nospread aimbot heavy would be the next choice, or spy
@@BlueShellshock Probably heavy with no spread and no damage fall off.
So what you’re saying is that removing Sniper makes the game more fun, focuses more on the actual main point of the game, and allows maps to be played as designed.
Why is anyone surprised by this?
I honestly think that this experiment should go for longer than a month or two as it would be cool to see what even more data has to say about the sniper problem.
>remove sniper
>game immediately improves
wow what a surprise
Seethe pity losers.
Skill issue.
Imagine not adapting and learning to have fun with snipers.
I'm being unironic. Fuck you.
obviously, that would happen.
And bot crisis solved lmao
The class changes, while minimal, make a lot of sense. Heavy is the de-facto "defense" class, and if you know Sniper is gone, you'd want to pick him more. Without Sniper, Spy is the only designated instant kill class that can ignore Heavy's health advantage.
It does make me wonder how a similar test where both Sniper _and_ Spy are removed would go.
Is that just too much, does it ruin a lot?
@@DonnaPinciotConsidering how useless Spy already is, I don’t see the point
@@bruhbruh-us6gl I see the point, Spy and Sniper both serve very similar roles in the game and have very similar targets. Removing both would be quite significant on strategy. The only reason we consider Spy useless now is because Sniper is just better at taking out the same targets.
@@iminumst7827 Depends heavily on the teams. Demo can kill things instantly too if you give enough time. Not even a lot of time, just about 3 seconds, or how long it took you to walk to the target.
Sniper just gets to do that from the other side of the map and can do it without delay
@@iminumst7827
I get that, but sniper is so much more effective than spy at doing the same thing, and this video demonstrates how little overall impact sniper has on the game, that also removing spy would have a less than negligible impact on the results you see in the video
One more video confirming that sniper should be just deleted forever
…so the game becomes more fun as a result? Are there any active servers that do this?
so the only major difference was that Heavy players lives were made ever-so slightly easier.
guys, i have an idea for the Heavy Update
Damn that’s sounds like paradise. Hope someone makes this concept into a dedicated community server
fr, i literally can't enjoy tf2 with him in it, i'm having fun, doing silly shit or whatever, and then BAM insta killed from across the map, all happiness shattered, and now i'm forced to sit in spawn or leave the game, cause continuing to play would just make me more and more misrable
i hate him so fucking much man, i can't even begin to properly convey the sheer amount of rage i've thrown at this video game model
it's just the fact there is ZERO counterplay, the closest thing you can get to is having two medics, one pops uber right before leaving spawn, and somehow blocks the second medic from getting shot by the sniper, then the second medic pops right before the uber runs out, and that should be enough time to maybe make it over to the sniper and take him down, but i'm not sure even that would work
i ended up exclusively playing mvm to avoid him :)
@@fortnitesexman
Also doesn’t help that sniper mains are the most obnoxious bastards to ever live
@@fortnitesexman whats worse is HE has razorback, you know 1 of 2 main counters (sniper and spy) but heavy gets nothing like that. Either remove the razorback or give heavy one
@@Mike-official Just shoot the sniper if he has razorback??
@@fortnitesexman Feel like people didn’t complain about sniper until uncle dane started, and now it’s the community’s default opinion. I never find myself getting annoyed at sniper and i’m a heavy/medic main. It just sounds like you’re playing the wrong game.
Thing is, when TF2 arrived, people was much worse at gaming in general. Especially the fast paced sniping that is required on sniper. So the gameplay core is designed around a different skill floor in mind than today. TLDR; sniper players OP.
I cannot tell you the number of times I've gotten headshotted as heavy just to switch to pyro with the sole purpose of flanking and causing chaos.
Valve did say that if they were to remove any class it would be sniper. This interesting experiement confirms that the game wouldn't even become unbalanced without sniper.
Personally sniper I agree with Valve that sniper is a poorly designed class, pro sniper players that play way too much sniper end up doing incredibly well and can actively shut down area whereas the majority of newer players and less experienced snipers would honestly be doing there team more of a favour by playing another class.
It's the class with the highest skill floor and ceiling, it's both a noob trap and an incredibly overcentralizing class when in the hands of a good player.
@@ReshyShirapoint and click < any other class
@@ReshyShira It doesn't have the highest skill ceiling, it is just more oppressive than other classes when you get to the upper ends of the ceiling.
I'd argue dying to Sniper in most situations feels unfair and unfun
doesn't even matter how skilled my opponent was, it just feels cheap no matter what.
@Goall Peashooters I wouldn't say cheap no matter what, but if you see them quickscope you I'd fully agree. All they did was point and click at that point.
A sniper with a charged headshot? Feels somewhat like my fault, depending on the situation. If I stood out in the open or moved too predictably it's absolutely my fault, if I know he's there.
A sniper with a quickscope? Guess I just got too close... to the class that's supposed to be weak at close range...
I love that Medic's average kill distance went down by ~80 units because he doesn't have to countersnipe as often. Keeping in mind that average kill distance doesn't show maximum and minimum distance, so whoever was getting kills as medic was probably only resorting to saws and maybe a desperation crossbow at midrange once Sniper was banned.
4:57 Wow Im so totally surprised people felt the game was more fun when they wernt getting one click deleted by a hitscan half way across the map
Removing Sniper also removes most of the bots and makes the game playable again. :3
People who say this seem to not know how much of a menace a heavy bot can be if used at full potential. He would be an even bigger pain than sniper bots. The only reason that doesn’t happen is because most bot hosters don’t know about that or just don’t bother.
@thebushbros6626 I wouldn't say they're worse than sniper bots but damn are they close. honestly though yeah, every one is pretending it'll automatically fix the bot issue when they'll just switch to heavy
they would just use other bots like they have done before
@@thebushbros6626 shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
@@thebushbros6626 literally just play soldier or demoman or heavy with a medic when the bot doesn't have a medic. its not that hard. sniper ruins the game because the bots can instakill at any range with hitscan with no damage falloff in a game entirely based and balanced around close to midrange fighting.
It's unfortunate that removing sniper is viable, as much as I hate the class losing a character would suck
Agreed. Sniper is still a merc. If he went the way of the Queen, it would be almost empty without him there.
Yeah, as nice as it would be for gameplay, it's too engrained into TF2.
Maybe if they make a sequel they can redesign him so skill creep isn't so insane, but no one could've imagined a 4000 hour sniper main when designing TF2
@@ratheruncreativename3252 That's clearly not the problem though, the problem from the range example and the feedback was that sniper just feels the most unfair to play against and he's not really designed to work well with the rest of the characters being the only one at a considerably long range where everyone else is helpless. No one imagined how good people would get at rocket jumping but someone being really good at that doesn't feel unfair, even dying to a bad sniper who can only hit bodyshots feels unfair when he's right next to his spawn with his team in front of him and being able to watch the majority of the map.
He could be turned into... well... support class. Being able to buff teammates and debuff enemies. That could open up a lot of interesting options.
@@thedynamolion Sydney sleeper
I'm legitimately really curious to see this experiment with other classes - but most of all Medic
Also i've had an inkling that a lot of FPS games would be better if there just wasn't a sniper class/weapon, it's basically only included because it's expected to be there and it's always a contentious inclusion. At least in TF2 the game isn't very obviously better with it's absence.
They only need to add a laser that becomes more and more opaque the more the Sniper charges the shot. And also nerf quick scopes, give him a delay where can he headshot. The same delay the Sidney sleeper takes to apply the Jarate effect. This would incentivize the use of SMG and melee when players try to flank him.
I remember fish stick on a stick, who is a sniper main, saying that medic is actually busted when someone mains him and I couldn't disagree with someone harder if they told me the sky was purple
I've had my ass kicked by medic mains but it always feels earned because I can't hit shit as a medic and there's a really nice irony to it
Sniper by comparison is taking advantage of game design oversights, in my opinion
Honestly, the only way to make Medic-less TF2 feasible is if there are no respawn timers.
I realy want a medicless/reduced medic TF2 because medic is the class with the absolute worst fun to impact ratio. Medic is insanely important, and insanely easy to play, meaning that in casual the avg person switching to med makes them not only play a class that is much more impactful, but a class they can also execute much closer to its full potential. But the downside is that people don't want to play the class.
Lot's of casual matches just end up a question of "how many people are willing to not have fun for victory on each team?".
if you want to play tf2 without medic then queue for casual
The first thing i thought when i saw this video was "why would you do this"
Fascinating video.
Data coming from more games and more varied players would obviously improve it, but still very impressive work and results.
I wonder if the place of death is something we should consider ... Turning TF2 into dustbowl choke simulator is not a good idea. But maybe it wouldn't last ?
I'd be interested in seeing that for other classes for comparison.
Array7 has an old video explaining how TF2 would die in like a year if medic was removed, that could be an interesting followup
I can somehow relate. I used to play a lot back between 2008 and 2010 and on the servers I played on Sniper was very unpopular because no one seemed to be able to play him. I don't know if it was a ping issue or a skill issue, but my default assumption was that Sniper = free kill. Due to the fact it was widely seen as useless most servers I've played on did not ban him but instead limited him to 1 pick per team so the team wouldn't be full of useless Snipers. It was quite a culture shock to me to come back to the game last year and finding out that Sniper is actually used a lot. Heavy used to share a similar fate, barely anyone picked him.
Back then the maps were also significantly smaller and harder for Snipers to find good sight lines,
@@iminumst7827
Plus everyone was a shitter back then
Old maps were also way way too cramped for most classes, let alone Sniper.
Current maps are extremely open, almost to an oppressive degree sometimes.
Heavy was quietly buffed a lot since then (in terms of minigun spin up time)
@@cinquine1 and also spread