The Villains of Sonic Forces DIDN'T MATTER (ft. SpeedSuperSonic)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- Sonic Forces get a lot wrong, and it isn't the usual flubs like glitches or console performance that many have come to expect from the franchise.
This game just gets ALL of the characters wrong in terms of writing, including the VILLAINS.
Joined by SpeedSuperSonic, we go over each of the villains and why they just don't work or have any place in this game.
Check out SpeedSuperSonic's content:
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----Table of Contents-----
0:00 Intro (chaomix)
2:09 Intro (SpeedSuperSonic)
3:36 Dr. Eggman
5:21 Zavok
7:14 Metal Sonic
8:34 Chaos
9:55 Shadow
12:19 Infinite
15:34 Conclusion
16:49 Outro
17:38 End Screen
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Infinite is emblematic of this entire game. He had the potential to be one of the best, but Sonic Team fumbled at nearly every single step.
I disagree, I knew Infinite would be an awful character from the moment I first saw him. His design just screamed edgy fan character.
@@crossfire34 Fair. His theme hyped me up 😭
@@zobirismage2813 I'll be honest. His theme is awsome.
It’s funny shadow just call him weak and boom he is bad
@@crossfire34 Him being edgy isnt an issue. But they could've done something fun with him if they put some care into him and his backstory. His character design is too good to go to waste.
The only thing worse than a bad game...is a boring one...
*Sigh*
Agree! Sonic 06 might be broken but at least it's not boring. I hope that the next game will be better than forces!
Nah I would rather play a boring game like Rise Of Lyric over a broken furiously mess of a game like Free Riders
@@theminecraft2516 actually you got it the other way around tbh
Free Riders is the “boring” one and RoL is the “bad” one
@@DerpaTure9503 I only was frustrated on the ball puzzle in sonic 06. I actually had fun playing the majority of the game 😅
But sonic forces was pretty boring for me and I barely had any fun.
That's at least my opinion. There are people who like sonic forces more than me.
@@makotoyuki345 Rise Of Lyric is boring and Free Riders is unplayable
Chaos is so hard to mess up. He is a water monster who can turn into several bosses and doesn't speak. Not a lot of room for error, except for making him a cutscene I guess.
"Hey you know that classic Sonic enemy that tons of fans cherish dearly and have wanted to see return for years?"
"Yeah?"
"Let's have him get one-shot in a cutscene to make Classic Sonic look good and never use him again."
And what that fanmade mod did.
"Sonic Forces is a game"
- Chaomix 2021
A bad one at that
@@lostswamp4003 no...
@@janusiers yes...
Legit thought my internet stopped the video. I got duped xD
Good job on your sonic collaboration!
It really speaks for the treatment of Chaos when Speed Battle arguably does it better.
Ikr
Its not even a contest. At least Chaos is physically IN Speed Battle
Chaos went from a cutscene-only mook in the "real" Forces to a _fully playable character_ in the mobile spinoff. There's no argument about it.
I feel like zavok was unnecessary in the game, replace him with mephilise
That mobile game has way more playable characters than sonic force
Infinite's theme has no right to go that hard when it's for a character that is so nothing
Perhaps his theme was meant to show how pretentious Infinite is, when in reality he's an immature bully who's nothing without the Phantom Ruby. Also, one of the lines is "Only scars remain of who I was.", but Infinite isn't shown to have any traumatic backstory other than his encounter with Shadow (unless that's the event that scarred him).
He’s not infinite, he is nothing
@@ryanm.8720 at least the IDW comics fixed him, thanks to those he’s become a favorite of mine
@@candy_ribbons Eh? Infinite doesn't even appear in the IDW comics
It's because they screwed up his backstory.
In the prequel comic infinite lead a squad of jackals called... The jackal squad. (Very creative I know) and apparently they're mercenaries or something that went raiding eggman's base but eggman a few minutes prior found the phantom ruby, and even if he didn't know what it was, when they attacked him it spawned eggman mechs to help him out and when infinite Attacked him it showed both of them visions of... ( I don't remember what it was) and eggman punched him, knocked him on the ground and just was like "hey, why don't we team up to rule the world together?" And infinite accepted. Why am I bringing up all of this? Because later in episode shadow, before shadow beats up infinite, he says something about shadow having eliminated his squad or something. And instead of having him go nuts because his squad was anhilated. They make him go nuts because shadow called him weak.
The comic also didn't explain a lot since it felt like they were really rushing through the story beats, but it was a prequel comic, and it is free online. But if you want to prove just how incompetent pontacc and graf are at writing, this is it right here. The comics had a fine setup for a villain, and they just used whatever to make him evil. To circle all back to infinite's theme, I wouldn't be surprised that those really overdramatic lyrics were probably talking about infinite, the guy who lost his friends to shadow, and not infinite, the guy that got mad over shadow calling him weak.
(I know this comment is way too long for being a reply to a one year old comment but what can I do.)
Gotta love Sonic’s minimal reaction to his friend Shadow turning evil once again, it says something when he shows more concern in the Shadow 05’ game. In Forces it sounds more like Shadow’s been eating other people’s food in the company fridge.
Shadow and Chaos as clones is the purest embodiment of drawing from nostalgia without understanding/caring about why people like those things. To market them in a well animated trailer and not do ANYTHING with them besides cutscenes? I find that despicable.
Infinite himself is a mess of a character, spread out across three pieces of media and still only feeling loosely connected. He has no real motives other than destroy, no actual nemesis in the game, and lacks in presence. They referred to him as ‘The Masked One’ a few times at the start of the story. For six months NO ONE knew his name? They have to save it for when Sonic and Infinite meet a second time, and Sonic’s just brushing him off as nothing despite well knowing his power. Plus a normal soldier can stand his own against Infinite. Why should I take him seriously?
His own mess with Shadow is something I’ve talked about in my own stupid video(shameless plug but I don’t feel like adding it in the comments).
Zavok is the only copy to have dialogue, and a boss that’s actually unique in the boost formula. I would say that’s sad, but hey, good for Zavok fans I guess.
Even my Main Man Metal Sonic was forgettable.
Just watch SA2’s Shadow and Dark Story characters for good Sonic Villains. All the Forces guys suck.
Edit: OH. And Eggman barely factors into the game. The GAME where he WINS. No cunning plan. No stand out moments. SA2 Eggman wins.
Also Edit: I’d like to think that Silver boss fight mention was a reference to me...*but that’s just my ego talking.*
Also also edit: The strength of these copies is inconsistent. It’s said that they’re as strong as the original. Classic Sonic and Shadow can kill them in one hit. Sonic takes awhile with Zavok. It takes Knuckles AND Silver to take down a Chaos copy?
Underrated comment
Also, as you've stated, Classic Sonic defeated (a perfect copy of) Chaos Zero, the same being that effortlessly defeated Knuckles, in one hit.
Imagine the potential for dialogue when Sonic met the copies.
"Shadow? You're with Eggman again? But... why?"
"Zavok? ...you again? (Sigh)"
"Oh, hey Metal! Good to see Eggman pulled you out of the dumpster again!"
"Wait, Chaos!? Eggman, how could you? Can't an ancient puddle have a rest? Also, really, how did you?"
Bold of you to think someone likes Zavok
He has his fans, trust me.
The fact that Zabok has a boss fight and Shadow and Chaos DON'T pisses me off, what were they thinking??
Someone at sonic team ready likes zavok
@@skyrailstar9923 I think they have a fetish
Creator's pet
Zavok suuuuuuuucks
@@traktor420 i mean.... yeah. This is sonic we're talking about.
Fucking EVERYTHING has it's roots in some degenerate fetish lol
"Sonic Forces introduced a lot of new comers to the series." And that's supposed to make me feel better? That kids are growing up with THIS game?
Unfortunately this only mainline Sonic game available on PlayStation and switch as of right now
If its the game that got them into the series, the other games are only a step up from Forces, so it is good for them.
@@jackisthebest1365 I mean you’ve got mania aswell
@@EmperorKarino lmao this was true for me, when I played forces blindfolded I didn’t see any problems, only that it was very short and then i played the adventure games, fire and ice, classics and enjoyed it very very much. Rn I’m very excited to play colors Ultimate since I never had the chance to play the original. It’ll keep me entertained while I wait for rangers.
*sigh
I honestly feel like if they actually put effort into Infinite they could have done something like give him major insecurity after losing to Shadow, and compensating with his over reliance on the Phantom Ruby, with his downfall being his ego instead of "the power of friendship" and it would have been like when a fighter gets punched in the face for the first time with that sort of shock and knowing you aren't as grand as you think, and it would have made his character at least slightly more complex and not just make him the "crybaby" Episode Shadow portrayed him as
"with his downfall being his ego instead of "the power of friendship""
Why not both? The "power of friendship" has been a thing in the franchise since 2003
@@jamiegioca9448 Yeah I could have also vibed with both, I just feel like they really could have done something with the former, I wouldn't mind if the latter stayed too
The games post 2009 seems to disagree with power of friendship considering how irrelevant sonics friends were.
I'm glad that Mephiles wasn't a part of the final game, because it would have been a lame excuse for a comeback of the greatest villain ever made in the sonic franchise
Who?
@@jet_setsonic7946 he’s the villain from sonic 06
It would mess up the canon even further.
@@jet_setsonic7946 either you live in a cave since 2005 or just joined the fandom 😂 he is the best villain ever made, main villain of Sonic the hedgehog 2006
@@Sydney_Angelyt I made a comment saying it makes no sense because Sonic had Elise blow out Solaris aka the Flame of Hope so the World can come back as they were just in a fragment of an area from the erased world created by Solaris and it's revealed Mephiles is the intelligent half of the Sun God and nobody but Sonic knows of Solaris's existence which if there was then why didn't we have Time Eater bring Solaris back? Then if Infinite was able to bring Mephiles back while knowing who Shadow is then why doesn't he know of Solaris either? The Sun God saw how important Shadow was as Mephiles so Infinite could've done that but again, we don't see that happen and it's canon so you can't disagree with what I've said about Infinite.
Chaos 0, Shadow, and Infinite stories development are gone and forgotten forever. (sigh) All these years wasted.
It makes you realize why are they even in the game if they barely pose a threat to Sonic and his gang in both the story and boss fights themselves.
"Sonic Forces is a game"
Whoa really!?
I shoulda known.
😐
Coulda fooled me
nah, its a
The title reminds me of my favorite track from the soundtrack of Sonic Adventure 'It Doesn’t Matter'
Now what happenes
I will never give up the fight
That’s my favorite too! My favorite Sonic song! EEP!😍
@@andreasmeelie1889 Eeep Sheep Peep Creep deep leap neap reap beep steep keep
@@theminecraft2516 I will never run away from all of my frights
Infinite is Post- Sonic 06 Sega come to life
(Sonic 06) A unfinished and glitchy game
(Sonic Forces) A boring "Game" That has no story.
I would take a game with unfinished and glitchy game over a boring one.
06 at least had ambition and potential, if it only had got more time... Forces just feels bland even if finished
I feel the exact same way
Nah, I’d take a boring game. At least a boring game is playable.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 Forces is the same rotten sauce as '06.
At least 06 was fun in its own buggy way because of how fun it is to break the game in so many different ways
this was tight! imma need to see more of yall collabing!
Sonicsta? Cool!
Have you been interested in doing a collab yourself?
I wanna keep collabing with Sonic Tubers throughout the year! Let's make it happen!!!
@@makotoyuki345 perhaps👀
@@chaomix and Sonicsta working on a video together? its a dream come true.
If you’re talking collabs with SonicTubers, don’t forget meeeeeeee......
it's a shame cuz, Infinite's design is my personal fav amongst other characters like Mephiles the dark and Clove the pronghorn.
Tho they could have change the Red for Orange just to have the distinction between Shadow but also still have the exaggerated black pallet to have visual dynamic between them.
edit: also red is my favorite color but it's overplayed.
Hard agree on the last comment; we already have Knuckles as the "red" character (although Mighty technically came first lol) but then we had Shadow with his red stripes (who often has a red aura), the red burst wisps, Zavok not to mention Infinite with his red aura too (I believe the "canon" OC Buddy is also a shade of red) moreover Eggman is often associated with the red aesthetic too.
Red is definitely an overplayed colour in the Sonic franchise.
@@lynxfresh5214 I prefer when Shadow’s aura is yellow. It looks nice.
17:54 To be fair I did read that in the original Japanese version it never mentions anything about being tortured, like the rest of the story is a mess, but that particularly seems to be a translation error
You wanna know what could’ve been cool? If Infinite’s motive stayed the same, and Shadow called him shallow, and then the final fight with infinite could have been played as shadow
16:40 The fact that this mediocre mess is the Sonic gateway drug makes me die a little inside.
Of all of the games to be introduced to the series by, and it's the mediocre one that fundamentally misunderstands the characters and gameplay of the franchise. I'm sorry, but that is _hardly_ a positive note for me.
Unfortunately the people who own PlayStation and switch right now this is the only mainline Sonic game available for them right now
Remember when Shadow supposedly killed Infinites squad? Missed opportunity? Surely he didn't go crazy and power hungry after being called weak.
And it was only in the comics. Lazyness to the infinity.
*Shadow kills Infinite's comrades:* Eh, I never liked them.
*Shadow negatively criticizes Infinite:* Unforgiveable!
@@whywyatt376 Nope the game stated that Shadow killed his squad. I forgot if the comics did as well
But to make it "Kid Friendly" they just said destroyed cause we can't say K i l l.
@@impaster2166we have death egg
Chaos and shadow were added only for nostalgia and then dispatched of in a cutscene. The other illusions were just there. Also anyone find it strange that illusion zavok is the only illusion that can speak and express emotion.
It isn't strange, it's stupid.
Wasn't Mephiles in a draf of the Forces story a long while ago. Also i think the thing about Sonic getting tourtured was a English only thing, as the JP version doesnt mention it.
I heard that, but I can't find any evidence to support Mephiles being there.
No
#getbootlegbowseroutofhere
You know, now that I'm thinking about it
There could be a potential of a reason why Shadow turned into Eggman side this time and not be a Phantom Ruby clone
He could have been duped Knuckles style and Eggman could trick Shadow into joining him because with the Phantom Ruby he can "revive" (or create) Maria, and tell that Sonic and Sonic friends are making him lose said Ruby which would make Shadow angry (in an uncontrollable type of anger) and join forces with Eggman
Metal Sonic being a clone actually made sense because last time I checked he wasn't with Eggman anymore and canonically, he hasn't been found (or well, at least that's what I heard) but they could do so much with the clone
I can say much more potential that would help the game a lot but i haven't played it yet so I really don't know anything haha
Personally,I don't agree.The whole entire point of his arc in SA2 and once more in SH and ShadtH,is that Shadow put his past behind him and choses to protect the Earth to respect Maria's wish. Sonic 06 has it's problems,but it pretty much under lined his character growth with his campaign. Him choosing to side with Eggman,just so he can get Maria back, is a betrayal of his character arc. Also,Shadow is NOT the gullible type like Knuckles so I don't think Eggman tricking him would make sense. Of course these days,Sonic Team(and by extension Sega) don't seem to have any idea who Shadow is as a character anymore so he's written to be this dark edgy tryhard.
@@infinitedreamer9359 and also even then Shadow wouldn't just side with the "Evil side" he would have his own agenda and his own goal with the Ruby
One that doesn't particularly clash with Sonic even, since he should be aware he can just freaking ask Sonic for it later
Shadow wouldn't betray Maria's promise to bring her back also shadow has alot of devotion to justice of his own free will outside of Maria's wish he doesn't just do it because maria said to and that is something that gets overlooked alot
Shadow could work as a double agent for the heroes' side. He already tricked Eggman once
@@littlemissdeadly24papyrus36 He could have done it with the full intent to betray eggman tho and come out with the best of both worlds, that seems like something he might do
When we first see Infinite...… "I- I'm not weak, Shadow beat me though, waaaaaaaaAAAAA (cry, cry, cry) :C"
This scene had me in FITS though :3 13:06-13:22
Expectation: Expecting for a Chaos and Shadow fight
Shown in game: They appear in a cutscene
It's honestly very sad to see the idea of Dr. Eggman actually taking over the world successfully being wasted in the final product. It would have been SO darn cool to see the returning villains as illusions from the Phantom Ruby and actually fighting them. Not to mention, this would have been one of my all-time favorite Sonic games ever. However, as we saw already, the game ended up falling flat so hard due to how insanely lackluster the execution in the final game was.
Zavok, in particular, shouldn't have come back to begin with due to how awfully one-dimensional his character is; moreover, he's not even that popular to begin with either. Dr. Eggman's character, for the first time ever, was not that good there. His character is shockingly limited, and I ABSOLUTELY HATE that! Furthermore, I would have LOVED to see Sonic actually being tortured by Eggman through his robots (and Infinite), breaking his spirits in the process. It SERIOUSLY would have been a perfect way to set up Sonic's character development, something I have been waiting for my whole life. Sonic Forces would very likely see Sonic slowly but surely regaining his good ol' self from months ago before he was captured and tortured, as you similarly addressed in the 5:00 - 5:20 mark. Although it would have been heartbreaking to see Sonic suffering from emotional trauma, as it would require his friends to give him support and help him recover, it would have been very satisfying to see him slowly regaining his old self from months ago. It's honestly a shame that we never got to see that 'cause SEGA is too afraid to take any larger risks for the Sonic franchise, which is why I am going for a very similar approach for a full-on remake for Sonic Forces' story with a friend of mine over on Twitter and DeviantArt.
It's also a HUGE shame to see Chaos, Metal Sonic, and Shadow (though it would have been much better to have Mephiles instead of Shadow) being wasted. Maybe we would have gotten a boss fight against Chaos 0 as Tails, and we especially would have gotten a boss fight against Shadow, which would have given us a really good throwback to the boss fight against him in Sonic Adventure 2. If it was Mephiles instead, however, it would have given us a very good throwback to the boss fight against him in Sonic '06. I also REALLY didn't like how Metal Sonic's boss fight turn out. It was basically a copy/paste of Silver's boss fight from Sonic Generations, and nothing more, and... I don't like how forgettable that boss fight was.
Infinite sounded like an awesome idea for a menacing villain, as we got to see his cool powers, but as we just saw in the final product, Infinite ended up being portrayed as a very childish edgelord, and we can clearly see that in his "backstory" in the Episode Shadow DLC. His backstory has got to be one of the worst things to ever come out of Sonic Forces due to how laughably bad that moment was. Basically, Infinite turned into a villain 'cause Shadow called him pathetic. This was extremely weak, and did not answer any of the questions about who Infinite was, and it's honestly a shame. A much better backstory for Infinite would be that he was bullied for having heterochromia as a child, resulting in him seeking revenge against those who made fun of him. It may sound cliché, but with the right execution, it probably would have made Infinite more sympathetic and likely would would have fleshed him out as a character, but NO... We ended up getting a backstory that is so lame that it made Infinite more and more forgettable, and it is devastating to see the potential of a new villain being wasted...
All in all, Sonic Forces would have worked really, really well if it was executed properly, but as we just saw, it did not, and it's really sad to see this game ending up being one of the worst Sonic games I've ever played by far. I REALLY hope SEGA finally learns from their mistakes and start making better decisions next time as they have Sonic Team develop the next mainline Sonic game in the franchise. :|
The worst of Forces is that the Sonikku in Adventure 1 can turn around in mid air with a short hop but Forces Sonic can only turn with a full hop
I remember hoping to death that the villains were not illusions because I knew Sega would make it the most boring thing ever.
The amount of disappointment I had when I saw big Metal, but I held my hope.
Then the Shadow scene happened and all I could do was let out a heavy sigh.
I guess you can say your hope turned into despair... puhuhuhuhu...
Honestly the boxart really made me think that the real metal would show up, but nope.... he was just on the boxart to blue-ball me I guess
Zavok has had interesting moments that could make him a good character. He seems to have a high sense of honor, a deep respect for his mentor figure, and a sibling relationship with the other four. It’s there, the writers just need to tap into its full potential.
Ian Flynn: I’m gonna do what’s called a Pro-gamer move
Its pretty sad that the last game Metal's had any real role in, is still Sonic Heroes. That was 17 YEARS AGO! Then poor Chaos' only other major role after SA1 was Sonic Battle on GBA. Also 17 years ago!
These boys deserve so much better!
Zavok is one noted why do people love him stop.
Nobody doess!!! He's just being forced onto things cause he's recent i guess
Great video, i appreciate you trying to be unbias but dude don't tell people to down vote your work. Your one of the better sonic youtubers out there. Down votes will have the youtube algorithm push your work to the side making it harder for people to find your videos. My least favorite villain is Zavok. Its not because I dislike the character, its the opposite. They did him and pretty much all the other villains in the game a disservice. I could get more into it than that, but I don't want to do my usual giant rant comments that I do on your videos. To be fair this is already a sizable comment when I haven't done any explanations. I might make a post on the sonic reddit about it though.
Dislikes actually factor into the TH-cam algorithm just as much as likes surprisingly.
Infinite has a lot of potential to be an awsome antagonist, he's powerful (not by much), looks rad in desighn, and his aura is menacing and sent a couple chills up my spine just by his body language. Fix his writing and you got a great new villain.
YEAH BEST COLLAB
A great video. Not only do I find your videos very entertaining and even better with SpeedSuperSonic here, I also love the look of your room. The aesthetic is really nice. Keep it up man.
Guys. Sonic's friends alone can put up a fight against Eggman and Infinite. With Shadow, current Eggman had no chance so they decided no to mention where he was or what he was doing or else no story would happen.
Yup nerfing Sonic's "LaMe FrIEnDs" is part of the mandates hence why it took Silver and Knux to beat a Chaos clone while "classic" Sonic defeated it with one attack!
Funny enough, as of late me and a few other Sonic fans have come to the realization that the sequel bait ending for Sonic Chronicles still does a better job at showing a Eggman wins scenario than the whole of Forces while having less plot holes too lol!
Some great editing here guys! Always good for a great argument and a laugh
Let me know your least favorite villain from Sonic Forces! Personally, I think Chaos drew the shortest stick... He was a real one, gonna miss him.
I completely agree with you. They made chaos so dull. We didn’t even get a boss fight. But at least the fans have a solution for that.
tbh chaos and metal sonic were the most disappointing for me, those were my favorite sonic villains of all time...
Infinite
Zavok
Infinite for sure 😞 Infinite's also my favorite villain in the game weirdly enough
I felt that Eggman was sort of meh and was missing personality
Metal Sonic wasn't necessarily bad, I think he was the best one out of Infinite's minions's portrayals, but I still feel like he's been being overused these days and it's taking a toll on his character and threateningness
I think Zavok was done better here than in anything except for maybe the IDW comics xD He seemed sort of threatening and he didn't overstay his welcome
It makes me sad that Chaos didn't get a boss fight and it makes me even more sad that they didn't go all out and give us Perfect Chaos (What's even weirder is that the Infinite amalgamations in Capital City seem like they'd be perfect as a bunch of Perfect Chaoses, and I think that was their original plan and then they thought about Classic Sonic and Tails and what to do with them, then they scrapped the Perfect Chaoses and just put Chaos in that cutscene)
I honestly don't mind that Shadow didn't get a boss fight, because I think Shadow's been getting the Metal Sonic treatment in that he keeps getting put into every game for no true reason only to be beaten by Sonic as he has been since Sonic and the Black Knight and it's really taking a toll on his seriousness and threateningness - Although, if we had a Shadow vs Fake Shadow boss fight, I'd be all for that!!
Infinite makes me sad. He was so close to being a super awesome and epic villain but he suffered from Sonic Team not being coordinated (As he and the Phantom Ruby have two backstories going on in the same game) and he also suffered from not the best writing (Like *that* scene,) but I also really liked him in the rest of Episode Shadow and thought he was really cool because of it, not to mention all of his missed potential and his design, and he's my favorite villain since Mephiles (Although I admit Merlina's much better lol) so all of his missed potential makes me very sad and that's why he's my least favorite in the game
Thanks for reading and have a nice day XD
Chaos was more integral to the plot of Sonic Battle on the GBA than he was in Sonic Forces.
Great video and great collab, guys! Hope to see more. 💪🙏
The game is put together between 2 completely different buildings 10 blocks away from each other.
Seems like there’s not enough communication going on in the making process.
Like everyone just adds concepts, then try figure out how to put them together.
I think it's so cool that two of my new favorite TH-camrs are in a single video together! 😆
And of course, great video! 😃
Hey great colab. love this kind of stuff. and yes I HATE how the villains didn't get their limelight.
When her parents aren't home: Gotta go fast
When she says you will be a father:Choas Control
I got an antidepressant ad when they started talking about Infinite.
Maybe not Mephalis. The timeline was reset so Eggman might not remember. But what if instead of a Shadow hologram, it was a Shadow android. This Shadow can infiltrate bases and cause problems for the real Shadow. Plus when hit, the Android won't immediately die.
This would at least be a good use of a stupid plot.
mephalis
I saw that smile after you said it was a game don’t think I didn’t see that 15:34
Urgh, Sonic Forces. Nothing gets under my skin quite like this game. "Robotnik wins" is such an interesting set up. I was ecstatic when I saw the first trailer back in the day. And had the writers been willing to follow through with the darker tone, I think this could have been a real comeback for the series. Yet SOMEHOW they screwed it up. I'd have loved to see Robotnik have his big moment. Winning after 20+ years SHOULD be a big moment. They could have established him as this big threat, used Sonic's imprisonment as a chance to let the side characters shine like the heroes they're supposed to be, but no, Sonic's friends just sit around doing not much. Robotnik isn't well written, Infinite doesn't live up to his potential, the core cast are flanderized, and most of the big moments happen in cutscenes that aren't even particularly good. There's SO much they could have done with this story. I think it's pretty telling that almost every fan suggestion I've seen has more impact than the game itself. The writing is insulting, both to the characters and the fans, and it makes Forces one of very few games from this series I haven't been able to bring myself to finish. I agree with pretty much every point you two made here; "Wasted potential", "Here for the sake of being here"...unfortunately, that is exactly what Sonic Forces and its supposedly "high stake" cast of villians feels like.
Wait how did speedsupersonic get out of segas basement ?
I would love to see Mephiles return. I don’t think he could be in Forces though, as Eggman would have to know Mephiles. It’s also arguable 06 happens in its own timeline, but I’d still hope he can return anyhow
Funny thing that you mentioned Mephiles in this, in a script or somewhere I’ve read in the Sonic Wikia, he was originally planned to be one of the Clones!
i mean, shadow also murdered his whole team, but eh, that's just fluff.
He murdered his whole team but it isn’t even brought up in the game at all. It’s practically irrelevant.
Actually, there's some... vague and almost non-existant hints about true motivation behind Infinite's actions, but they are so subtle and have no direct confirmation, that everything you will read below, should be considered as a head-cannon of few guys that were reading too much into Infinite.
So... As i remember, Infinite was a leader in an elite group of mercenaries. And, if i'm remember correctly, other members were like a family to him.
But what one of the first thing we hear when starting the first mission in Eggman's base? That all of the jackal squad was "wiped out" or something. After witch we never heard of them again
And remember, that Shadow have a bad habit of destroing anything on his way. There could be a chance that Shadow went a little overboard and, probably unintentionally, caused their death. Again, it's only based on "whiped out" remark or somesuch, so it's can't be considered total proof. But that will give Infinite already a strong motive.
Next(let's forget about Shadow being Mary Sue for a moment) - Shadow not just beaten, but litteraly destroyed Infinite in battle. Then - called him "weak" and just went away.
Now if we assume that other members of jackal squad were, indeed, dead, Infinite's position looks very dark: someone just crushed him, killed everyone he loved, and then proceed to mock him at the death's door. After witch Shadow just went off, without even finishing the job. Without at least a mercy kill for an fallen one, like a final mockery between the lines of "you're so weak that even killing you is too much of a praise for you".
When everything you know and love is gone, people, having a mental breakdown, usually either blame themselves, trying to just end this suffering... or, either, can find someone to blame all those misfortunes on, trying to prove that it was EVERYONES fault. And sometimes, those kinds of people want everyone to feel the same suffering they went through.
And, actually, THAT'S the version of Infinite is the one I, personally, see as cannon. Yeah, i know that this is just a shabby headcannon, but it would fit Infinite SO well! That would actually explain many things. When anything you know and love is destroyed in front of you, when the pain from this loss is so severe, that you want everyone to feel the same pain as you do... THAT is a proper motivation for a villain.
And that is what Sega taken from us.
Kinda sad, don't you think?
13:06 Best moment.
even Marty McFly convince more when someone called him "Chicken" instead of Infinite and his " *I'M NOT WEAK!!!* "
Basicly, in short:
Gameplay - close to sonic 06 in terms of broken maps and other glitches.
Villains -
Infinite: Dollar Store Mephiles
Everyone else, except Eggman: basicly soulless copies
Eggman: classic Eggman, too safe.
Normal characters -
All Flanderised.
PC - very bad Sonic OC creation tool, I've seen Sonic Flash games with better character redactors.
You know how I would of written this? (Based on theories I remember from fans before relase):
1)Phantom ruby can open gateways to other dimensions aside of creating holograms
2)Chaos comes from the world he destroys, Shadow comes from the world he allies with black doom, Metal sonic comes from the world he took over everything’s after metal madness, and Zavok is gone, he is replaced by Dark Gaia taking a humanoid appearance
3)They are all controlled to an extend believing to be working for their cause under phantom ruby
4)They get phantom ruby powers pf creating physically short lived holograms, that they can use on their boss fights
5)Infinite is a kid that has been experimented with a phantom ruby replica, the only survivor who got to use the power to its fullest but it took a mental toll making him homicidal and mad
6)The torture is alluded in some moments sonic just freezes or is unable to fight alone because of emotional paim
7)The wisps are just fuel for his robots, they come from a dimension where eggman managed to do his Sonic Colors plans
8)The last fight Classic sonic is gone, the avatar is dead and both Sonic and Shadow take Eggman down seriously apparently killing him for good and he will be gone for years to come,being replaced by a copy robot for some games and if they ever brought him back again he would come from one of the phantom ruby gates, maybe shadow or chaos world
Done
Oh correction “Meta sonic from the world he won as Metal Madness”
Also…Gemerl
I always saw Forces as 'Good ideas, bad execution' The very idea that Eggman has finally won and you need to take back the world was a great idea. But it fell flat really hard and really quickly. The Phantom Ruby was a cool idea but also executed poorly. On the point of Metal, It would have been off if he didnt show up. Metal's whole purpose is to destory Sonic, to the point of constant obsession. If Sonic's there in the game, you bet your ass Metal is there somewhere as well.
Sometimes i think about my theory before Forces came out where I thought Infinite had the ability to go back in time and that Eggman orders Infinite to hold Maria hostage in order to strong arm Shadow into working for Eggman.
Freedom planet did a torture scene better than sonic forces will ever do
13:05 Freindly reminder that the person who wrote this thought it was a good line, sent it out to be voice acted and put into the actual game.
“Metal has no lines of dialog”
Me: and that’s unusual because… ?
he has dialogue in heroes
One thing that would have made Infinite way more interesting;
Get rid of the damn mask and make him slightly less edgy.
He'd still have a slightly edgy personality, but the superiority complex would be gone and he could have a bit more memorable dialogue in the long run.
I feel like his design was awesome, his personality wasn't though
Alternatively, Infinite's superiority complex could've been fleshed out more so that he'd come off as less of an idiotic generic doomsday villain and more of a bully who desperately wants others to fear him so that he'd be respected, while keeping the edginess to show how vain he is. By the climax, he'd have a breakdown speech that would be similar to the speech Scourge gives in Archie Comics' Issue #196:
"You know what? Forget ruling both Moebius or Mobius. I'm Super Scourge. I'll spindash both planets in half because I can. And then I'll just keep stomping on planets until I find one that gives me the respect I deserve-"
"HEY! I'M NOT DONE TALKING TO YOU!"
First video ive watched of your channel
🔥👏
Personally, I can't really agree to Infinite being too bad of a villain (except for not killing Sonic, of course) or that his cutscene being "cringey" but that's because I wrote an entire blog on his mental health so... yeah, I'm a bit biased. I found him to be a very fascinating character. His infamous "I'm not weak!" is actually a telling line of superior/inferior complex mixed with PTSD. Sure, being defeated sounds like a lame thing to have PTSD about until you remember Infinite is as cocky as Shadow... He's a successful in his own mind so being weak naturally fecked with his head. Honestly, in a couple ways, I can relate to his struggle. I mean, he literally fought with himself, went insane... I dunno, I wish he was more established, myself.
6:00 They made Zavok a good menacing villain in the IDW comics but the only problem is the Sega threw the Zeti into Lost world with no backstory.
How to write sonic characters correctly: go through each individual character and put their personalities together. Then make the villain with actually good backstory. The whole “I was called an idiot in 5th grade” story isn’t compelling or emotional. Try to make players relate with the villain. And if you are going with the “you’re weak” backstory, at least show that they did something to prove later on instead of magically willing power into existence. Then show how the characters interact with each other. Does it make sense? Do the characters act correctly? If so, then it’d be a good sonic game. And most importantly: Don’t waste perfectly good opportunities for boss fights against old characters with some of the easily most hatable characters in the franchise. Don’t let characters die in one hit during a cutscene.
Long essay aside, these components are key to a good game in general, not just sonic games. It just so happens that sonic games need this advice the most.
What makes Infinite's writing seem even more lazy is that his boss battle is literally just a reskinned Metal Sonic fight, with only a single new gimmick added to make it seem a little bit less like a copy. Hell, even the animations are exactly the same. Infinite had so much potential, but they completely butchered him.
In regards to your closing statement the problem with introducing the game to newcomers they have been doing that Sonic Team have been doing that with every game since Colours, Iizuka stated he want to appeal to casuals with colour, Mario fans with Lost World, Boom was supported to be dedicated to newcomers, and kept catering to casuals with Forces, enough with catering to casuals, when is Sonic Team going to make another game for us the fans?
To be fair, Shadow *did* kill Infinites entire squad. On top of that, Eggman told him to suck it up and do what his squad mates failed to do. If you had read the comics, you could say there's also the part that the deaths of his squad mates was all his fault. That much loss on top of that much pressure all at once is enough to make someone go insane.
Honestly, I never thought Zavok was that bad. Yeah he was nowhere near as well-written as other antagonists in their debuts, but I think he has potential to be a cool villain. This potential was recently tapped with the comics, where the consensus seems to be, he's actually interesting.
Granted Sega didn't have to shove him down people's throats every single game, and I think the damage is done. But I think the next time he appears, he'll at least have much more to offer
He only started to crack into something in the comics Because he's been forced onto everything, not simply by being interesting on his own
@@justbny9278 Yeah, infinite Zavok theorem lol. Things could've been different if he was interesting in Lost World
Sonic Forces being a "completely nothing game" and the way you delivered that line had me laughing.
I still can’t believe that the the trailer cast Shadow as a villain when he clearly isn’t. It felt like the writers had never even play Sonic 06.
With Infinite's Motivation it would make more sense for Sonic Forces to be a game about Shadow
Sonic Team treated the villains like they treat the Chaos Emeralds…
the biggest crime about this game is having such a raw charecter desine, theme, voice, and powers, but has the worst personality, modive, and backstory
Speed battle is probably the best thing to come from it (I'd know I'm pretty sure I have more hours in it than all sonic games I've played combined)
Infinite says that he wanted revenge on Shadow because Shadow destroyed Infinites Squad
the Jackal Squad from between Sonic Forces: Rise of Infinite and Episode Shadow.
If you have to do homework to understand an important story aspect like what a villain's backstory/motivation is,guess what?That's a bad story! There was no reason they could've have added in that instead of leaving it to other media.
It also sucks that Shadow in his DLC for Forces doesn't get any bosses
i REALLY hope frontiers does sonic justice
Chaos really was so disappointing in forces they should of done the return of chaos like in the Archie comic where king sonic. And his kids take him down but have it done with the game cast
Or heck, maybe Ben have the real chaos show up and fight him, since he’s a good guy, the Archie comics had a story based in unleashed, and chaos stopped the earth from getting drained when it was split apart, do something like that instead of just blue balling adventure fans
0:41 that’s the thing with sonic enemies. The enemies may be easy to defeat but atleast they actually try to deal damage out of you by either shooting a projectile at you or swing with their arms and legs. In forces they don’t even try at all. In fact they avoid you more than actually try to attack you. But enemies are easy ti deal and get out of the way so no big deal.
God damn this man makes quality good shit bro love your vids!
I agree, considering Sonic never even MET Mephiles
Sonic knows of the events, that's why he produces that gust so Elise can acknowledge it which Solaris gives her some fragment of him as she didn't want to go back to her miserable but she still doesnt get to fully remember after she blows out Solaris but yes in the time that they were brought back to, Sonic doesnt meet Mephiles and as we see, he would rather prefer to move on and stay happy that Elise did what he wanted, sacrifice her memories with their close friendship so everyone can come back to life as Sonic knows that was the right thing to do, she has to be happy because that's what he wants her to feel, he grabbed her hand and ran at a steady pace so she can feel more free and understand what it's like for him, I've never saw it as romance from start-to-finish, just Sonic being himself and brightening her mood which she felt more close alot like Amy but unlike Amy, none of this was for getting with him nor to date him, she does show some thoughts of having a prince but people are forgetting as royalty, princes and princesses can't date civilians which Sonic is, he does have some royal blood as shown when he's revealed to be the reincarnation of King Arthur in SATBK but not truly royal and she kept her boundaries but it still is not proof it's truly romantic as I don't see it even now when I've learned alot, having aspergers made it impossible to know but my feelings and thoughts are the same regardless.
I agree that Mephiles would be a really cool boss, but sonic 06 isn't canon anymore, since rivals basically replaced it in the canon.
Sonic 06 is canon still. Generations brought it back.
@@undeadbatman9762 I see your point but the game, storywise, doesn't really acknowledge that level it's really just there for fan service. It's also replaced with a sonic rush level in generations 3ds
@@manboi1794 "Everything in sonic is canon forever" - Aaron Webber.
Everything in sonic is canon including the Archie verse. Only there are different incarnations of sonic.
@@undeadbatman9762 but then in which incarnation is 06 canon? Because it's been confirmed that in the current games blaze is from rush and silver is from rivals.
@@undeadbatman9762 even if it's canon the events of 06 were undone in the end.
What ya need to know is,if the guy has a hundred toys of a franchise ya know he knows the best for the franchise
The phantom Ruby may also be in Sonic Generations...
Where? I didn't see it.
@@crossfire34
It’s a theory that I came up with, “what if the Phantom Ruby came from the Time Eater”.
The Time Eater & the Phantom Ruby can create purple-pink portals and can warp reality. The phantom Ruby could be made of the Time Eaters soul. When the Time Eater was destroyed at the end of Generations, it’s soul may have followed Classic Sonic into the new “mania dimension” and then it went into hiding inside the earth of Angel island (because the island is connected to the master & chaos emeralds) so it could turn itself from a disembodied soul to a physical stone like the emeralds are.
Then in Sonic Mania, once it has manifested, it makes sure to attract Sonic & Eggman. Eggman, so a Super Sonic threat could be created and so it could turn his robots into it’s minions. Sonic, to collect the emeralds and stop the threat. If it was part of the Time Eater then it has seen everything Modern Sonic has done, including every time he has used the emeralds, so it’s soul would know how powerful they are.
So it’s whole plan in Sonic Mania is to use Eggman to create a huge threat, use Sonic and the emeralds to stop the huge threat, then use the emeralds itself to chaos control a portal so it can get back to Modern Sonic’s dimension, take Classic Sonic with him and then find a pawn that’s powerful enough to kill them both, a damaged soul that didn’t want to be weak anymore...
But that’s just a theory, a Sonic theory
Too bad we can't go to Sega and tell them everything was wrong about Sonic Forces, maybe tweet or demand them but I'm unsure . Also I do like Mephiles to return but how can you bring back a great villain since Sonic 06 was erase and no character recall him since he no longer exist. Plus Sega say he's a one-off villain.
Imagine they did something bold. Remove classic, he has no place in this story. Have a Sonic game where we only play the first and final level as sonic, and the rest as either the avatar, or other allies, as we try to save sonic, then help him find himself again. The whole wide cast giving back to the main hero for once. Now, one idea i liked is tails having lost it, but i'd play it differently. Hide tails most of the game. Then at the big battlefield scene, the EggCarrier flies over, with Sonic's logo hastily painted over the eggman faces. Tails comes into comes, looking more terrifying than any of the villains, as he orders to deploy all units, and a legion of repainted eggpawns, in the colorscheme of the tornado 2, drop onto the battlefield, supporting the heroes, led by the real Metal Sonic, and they create the opening for sonic, metal sonic, and the avatar character to breach into the final levels of the game, where metal sonic takes jabs at sonic about how he used to look up to sonic and want to be him, but not anymore, or maybe even "not this sonic, the real sonic"
I mean stomping in the 2-leg egg walker, laughing maniacally while entering the GUN Base was the best thing I ever played! Was it that hard for a throwback
Can we talk about Episode Shadow a bit more? Because it makes Shadow look even worse imo.
Why do you ask? He saw all this shit coming a month prior and did nothing to stop it! He's the main trigger as of why Infinite went ham on Sonic. And what does Shadow do when shit hits the fan?
He fucks off for 6 months! And it isn't until Sonic is back that he decides to appear and explain things???
GET. THE. FUCK. OUTTA HERE!
That's pretty much what he almost did at the start of ShTH aka "Oh look everything is on fire. Welp, not my problem BAAAIIII!"
No wonder people have all their chips on Ian Flynn's table.
I still have no faither that the current Sonic Team will learn their lesson. I've accepted a long time ago that modern Sonic Ream and even SEGA see the sonic franchise as nothing more than a cash cow, plain and simple. Sure, that's easy to say on a surface level and say "*SEGA'S A BUISNESS FIRST, GAME DEV SECOND! WHAT DID YOU EXPECT?!*", but when you compare modern Sonic games to games like Sakura Wars, Yakuza: Like a Dragon, PSO2, Valkyria Chronicles 4 and other titles that SEGA treats with respect, you just can't help but see an inherent bias at SEGA and a lack of competence, creativity, and passion in Sonic Team. How much does "SEGA BEING A BUISSNESS FIRST AND A GAME DEV SECOND" really hold up?
sonic ream
Good to see other channels helping other channels
I really don’t like how infinite’s final fight ends. He says that he’s not done, and then kinda just leaves. At least frontiers is fixing a lot of the stuff you said, at least from what I’ve seen.. which is not a lot.
Cool video mate
Imagine if Infinite came back in the next Sonic game (possibly Frontiers) and pulled a COVID on the entire Sonic universe, where he doesn’t just produce clones of Chaos, Shadow, Zavok, and Metal Sonic, but also Dark Gaia, Solaris, and even himself, and uses the Phantom Ruby to render them more powerful and dangerous than their original counterparts, to the point that not even the combined efforts of Sonic and friends (and even Eggman) would be enough to stop Infinite. This may be unexpected, and would cause more casualties to the universe than Thanos, but would that have been cool to see that?
Golly good show (totally not a refrance) and I think the editing is getting better
Pretty sure it's Jolly.