Intermittent No Start - Fuel Pump Current Ramping
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- In this video we discuss the importance of knowing why you are changing a part and being 100% sure it is at fault. We have a look at a Jeep Grand Cherokee that has a no start condition unless you bang on the gas tank. To be 100% we take a minute to gather a current ramp of the fuel pump and show the difference between the new one and the old one.
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Due to factors beyond the control of South Main Auto Repair, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. South Main Auto Repair assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. South Main Auto Repair recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of South Main Auto Repair, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not South Main Auto Repair.
Very good information indeed! I have been told current ramping is the holy grail of diagnostics. Maybe I can stop by sometime and get schooled by Eric O. in person. You are a wealth of knowledge sir.
Hey Brian, wow thanks alot for that. Well I am always glad to share the little bit I do know so feel free to stop in any time! Glad to see ya over here!
The higher amperage after a dead spot on the original pump could be attributed to the pump speed. As it starts to slow down in the dead segments, it's CEMF (counter electromotive force) is lessened. When the pump "re-engages", it is doing so with less resistance (because of less CEMF), so amperage starts off higher than normal. Same condition applies to when the pump first starts to turn. (very high amperage, from no CEMF)
Also, on a system that monitors the actual fuel pressure and establishes a desired fuel pressure and varies the duty cycle of the pump to match both, we could see the same thing happening where the computer is driving the pump extra hard in order to reach it's pressure.
Ends up the new pump drew just as much amperage in the end and it is the only thing on the circuit so must be just the nature of the beast on this one.
High amperage on new pump might be a case of 'not broken in' yet, give it a couple thousand miles and it might be easier to spin over?
Lee Barnes Or you have to have a known good. All vehicles are different.
would that be a peak 9amps? or an average of 9 amps?
the new pump and old pump run at 9 amps....
ass we see the new pump is steady about 9 amps.
is the old pump averaging 9 amps due to cemf?
as we can see it appears to have huge peaks and valley's .
i would never doubt the skills and abilities of anyone, or even question this, however more of just a question of scaling with the new toy..... very impressive by the way. had my eye on a 2 chan for some time. let us viewers know how you really feel as you always do. as always great comments from the non obtuse world and another great vid (doctor) eric o.!
Have a Pico and only a diy mechanic so I am happy every time I have a chance to watch Pico in action, enjoy your videos every time.
Thank you for taking the time for making this video!! Not only was the quality very high, you actually showed a faulty pump in action, which is something I rarely see in TH-cam. Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge and time!!
One of the things that sets you apart from other TH-camrs is your constant thirst for knowledge. It's infectious.
It says something about people's appreciation of knowledge and skill when Eric O has 55K subs and a showman and hack like Scotty K has 605,000. I guess people want to be spoon fed a solution instead of really understanding a problem and learning from it. Keep up the fantastic work Eric.
you know your doing good when scannerdanner is watching!!!!!!! Thanks eric
What an awesome tool. The more I see it used the more impressed I am. I enjoyed the video Eric. Seeing wave forms is very helpful in my own quest to become a tech/informed DIY'er.
Cool, you could have gathered that with the vantage to just fyi. Get your self an amp clamp and you can do the same thing. Plus a lot more with an amp clamp.
So true. An amp clamp is next for sure, thanks for the response and I'll do more with the Vantage as soon as possible.
This is really a cool idea. For those not wanting to spend this much on the PicoScope I can suggest a much cheaper alternative. Buy an Analog Discovery for $250 (cheaper if you are college student) and purchase an ACS712 for a couple bucks. The Analog discovery is powerful device with 2 channel oscilloscope. It has a function generation and DC voltage output. The software is free to download and use from the Digilent website. The analog discover does not have an amp clamp to measure current but that is what the ACS712 is for. With this setup you can accomplish the same thing as Eric O. here but is much for cost effective for the DIYer. I am not a salesman or anything like that just thought I would pass the information along to anybody looking to be able to analyze circuits. Great work Eric!
you can read rpm at the bottom right when you set your cursor s
Yes Eric, you will love the Pico, the use of it will speed-up your production tremendously. Nice vid.
I almost bought one...saves LOTS of time. Former avioncis student!
Nice waveform and I'm sold on the Pico to augment my Edge. Thanks for the video it's a lot easier to buy something when it is tested by someone you trust and know will put it thru the paces.
Cool stuff. Thanks for showing off the pico
You have some lucky customers, you're an excellent mechanic and generally a smart guy
jim dandy Generally? Lol My wife would say that was a half hearted compliment. Like saying, "u look reasonably well in that dress".
Your going to enjoy the Pico Eric. One of the main things I enjoy about it is the insane long time bases you can put it on. I can put it on a long time base, drive the vehicle around the block and come back and review it. Have you checked out Autonerdz yet? I'm a member myself. The site has tons of info, take a look when you get a chance.
The bad thing about your videos, as well as some other fellows', is that you get used to seeing how things are done in the big leagues... And then, like it happened to me this week, I had a major issue with my truck and went to the local garage.... And Oh my God!!!! Such a huge reality check! Like watching top models all day and then coming home to a fat, smelly, hairy wife!!!
another great video Eric,your a great mechanic and all around good guy..I learn so much from your videos,the people in that town are some Lucky people to have you as there mechanic..
aww well thanks :)
there did you get the 60,000 and 6.843 from? great video
60,000ms in a minute
OK, I'm trying to get my RPM so i multiply the Hertz by 60 is the right. The Hertz 168.25 and the Delta was 6.02. thanks so much for your feedback. learning a lot from your video in the Bahamas.
where did you get 6.843 is this your Delta? so just love this because it has my mind going. still have a lot to learn. thanks
Love to see more with the picoscope. It's a great tool
Another tip. When you want to compare before's and after's, all you got to do is save your before capture, and when your ready to compare it, just plug your picoscope and open the file you saved(the before capture) and you now have the same triger, time and overall settings.
When saving your waveform, use the save and share. This will upload it to the pico waveform library for others yo use
It seems to pass most users attention, because in every diagnostic video people are calculating the RPM of fuel pumps ..... after you place the two cursors (as you did) you can read the RPM in the bottom right corner box of the Pico software. This feature has been there as long as I have my scope.
Greetings from a Pico user.
Ok, just watched the second half of the video 😁
Eric
Glad you added the Pico scope to your artillery.
Eric: It would seem that Test Engineering practices given all the electronics in cars and Big Nasty basics meet in one place in your shop. You have a skill set range that makes you an auto systems mechanic even beyond the dealers.
I am a follower of your channel and tutorials that are very easy to understand and clone. Great job on your demonstration and thanks for sharing my friend!
I am truly jealous! I'm planning on buying one hopefully by June or July. I'll be watching and please share any growing pains so I can learn as you do! Awesome video and awesome addition to your shop! Thanks Eric O.!
Eric, This is my first comment on youtube. I have watched all of your videos at least once and some many times. As for the door bell, I see that as money coming in and a very happy customer going out. as for your telephone ringing, the only downfall is from my end as I wear a top quality set of headphones and every time your phone rings I look at my own phone due to the fact that we have the same ringer. LOL. I live in a Northern Ontario city and have yet to find a single honest tech. Wish you lived closer. The quality work you do and the honesty and integrity in which you do it are next to none. Keep the videos coming, I learn so much, it's priceless.
From Northern Ontario Canada.
I grew up in Woodstock,Ontario & worked in Northern Ontario 50 years ago
Mechanics were certified,good & honest then
This is the best car repair channel.
I believe at the end you needed to change the vertical "range" scale which you had at -5...10 and that's why the two waveforms didn't match. Great stuff.
Amp clamp, the more I use it the more I like it! Thanks for showing us the Pico. Can't wait to see the amazing things you'll end up doing with it. Thanks!
Yep learning as I go. It is a great tool for sure !
Great video on using the lab scope. Would it be possible for you to do a video with pico vs hantek for beginners like my self who can't afford the pico.
Next job for my PicoScope .. ramp the pump on my 182k Odyssey .. had a crank start/got stranded/crank no start/intermittent/came home on the hook .. reflowed the main relay (resoldered bad solder joints) .. runs again but needs my due diligence ...
Dude thank you for taking the time and making this type of video For us I seriously am impressed
Nice lesson Eric. You should have two interns from the vo-tech school. What a resource for that school.
Another outstanding video. I've played around with a generic oscilloscope but the end devices (such as the low current inductive ammeter used here) give critical functionality that is hard to copy. PICO seems like the best package, if I can ever afford another -toy- tool.
Love the pico Eric I just got mine little over a week ago and it definatly takes some learning. Cant wait for more!!
Been wanting a Pico for quite some time... hope to have one sometime next year!
best investment you can make! Great scope!
cheers Eric, a tip I got years ago was that the fuel pump draw should be approximately half the amperage of the protecting fuse ie a 20 amp fuse should only draw 10amps approx cheers sandy
Take that with a grain of salt because there could be other things on that circuit too ;)
I coined the phrase "Picoflu " years ago to describe the life changing moment when you get a Pico. Get a fluke T-pac magnet kit to hang your scope from the hood, leave it permanently set up and grab known goods from every car you pull in. Cheers
Still loving it then Doc, aint you got anything better to do than watching repair videos on a Monday night.................Na, me neither!
It's like Africa mate, once it's in your veins it never leaves you. You should see my TH-cam history, a lifetimes learning for most Tech's right there. My body might not be willing but I still soak up as much info as I can lol.
great video you saved me alot of money by doing most of work my self being on ssi and a baby on way every penny counts
Nice video. Next time you do a current ramp why not do a comparison with the Pico vs. Verus (aka virus) vs. Vantage just for kicks. Thanks.
nice tool to have but it takes away the fun of guessing whats wrong haha
you do it all the time so I guess it don't seam that big a deal ,but for us that are not used to it it is a cool bit of info . thanks so much for sharing love your videos
Boy having the right tool sure does make a difference doesn't it. Home run Eric. Thanks buddy -John
It sure does!
Hey your videos are great and your not that far away thumbs up from Rochester ny
Sheldon?? where the heck is "the Invisible Mechanic" ..Josh :)
Oh ..in the back ground nailing a a impact
Another great video thanks!the only thing is after just investing in a verus edge I feel a little sick😭
I always love all your videos but these are the ones I love the most great job as always and thank you very much for your time
Nice new toy! Hopefully we'll see more waveforms in the future.
Eric pls do another day at the shop video
I'm keeping this video so I can learn on my Pico Scope.
Great Video!
Thanks for the video Eric. I enjoyed it quite a bit. Your videos have helped me quite a bit.
Way to step up with the pico. Them are very nice scopes but not quite in my budget yet so I still use the good old snap on scope which does everything I need it too from high speed can to current ramping but one day I will get a pico as they are the best scope out there currently.
Nice Video Eric, Just to let you know though, you don't have to do the math to get the RPM on the Pico like in the older versions. Just look down at the lower right hand corner and it's shown there for you.
I love the Pico plus they keep adding new features and it never cost you a thing. You can even download the program for free and try it out in a test mode. I still haven't used all the features haha man the things amazing . Like a kid in a candy store eh Eric. LOL
good call Mr O keep them coming
Hey Eric , stop apologizing for making another video on fuel pumps ! Or as it seems. The more you burn the more we learn..thanks for another fine lesson not just on the pump , but also on just watching the pico scope or any new equipment doing its thing.
Well i don't like to repeat if I can help it
Oh Never mind on my previous post. I see you pointed out what I was talking about later in the video.
Thanks for the video....Glad to see you have a pico.
Made a bet with my professor today. If I could get the correct rpm in the fuel pump... I would get a guaranteed bump up to my letter grade 👌🏽 I believe I got it right
The Pico is an amazing tool.
Hello Eric
can't wait until you do a power balance test or compression test!
He has both videos somewhere in there. They use a ford tool at the ETCG meet for a power balance, and he has a compression test with a ScannerDanner probe video somewhere on a Hondo IIRC.
Enjoyed it and learned something. Thanks for sharing.
I just got a Pico and I'm looking for anything I can test and since I have a 2000 Grand Cherokee with the 4.7 with original pump, I just did the same test for comparison. At idle my pump is running around 5.4 amps and 6,500 rpms with a similar looking waveform as the new pump in your video.
thank u sir for all your hard work.
You dont have to calculate the RPM, it is displayed in the box at the bottom right corner of your display once you set the cursors the way you did.
Greetings from Germany, Bernhard
Most fuel pumps use motors with carbon brushes... any on experience how long hese will last , aprox how many hours or miles ? Let´s asume the rest of the pump lasts that Long.I think about changing the pump some time as preventative maintenance one day... ´but I don´t want to do it way too early because on my car the tank needs be completely removed from the car. thanks
I can't say how long a pump will last, but I can say it will last far longer if you keep the tank more than half full. It works a lot less hard and stays a lot cooler.
nowadays car need oscilloscope to diagnostic ( work smarter not harder ) Thanks for the vid.
you nailed it just like the doe
Good video
You saw ScannerDanner using it and he loves it.
Thanks!
whoo hoo!!! a new video good way to start a week .
good one
I still enjoy watching the videos like you use dorman lol
You are getting to be like Scanner Danner with the Picoscope.
Same Pico kit I just bought, don't use it enough though! I find the blue usb3 lead a bit in the stiff side. I believe you can use a nice soft usb2 lead but don't know the exact reason for the blue usb3 it's summat to do wi speed.
usb2 is 480Mb/s. usb3 is 4.8Gb/s
Steve, Pico had an issue with the original USB cable years ago where it had an intermittent contact with the USB ports on some computers. The engineers found out that a lot of the computers on the market had issues with their own USB ports. The pins inside the ports would be a little too wide in making contact with the USB cable. So, they engineered the blue USB cable so that it would make a stronger contact with those computers that had those issues. This is according to Autonerdz.com where Tom Roberts brought us up to speed on this issue.
I think there might be a bit of confusion here. I'm relatively new to diagnostics and I have the same Pico Eric O has it's a 4425. It came with a blue USB lead which is USB-3 The lead is VERY stiff so much so I feel it strains the usb socket on my laptop. This blue lead has an extra sticky-up bit on top of the end that goes in the scope, that bit is to do something else allowing the cable to be much faster as SirDeanosity said (thank you) I believe an ordinary soft USB-1/2 can be used but I don't yet know the exact answer of why and when!
The blue lead can be use with the scope on a pc with only the old USB sockets but the data will transfer at the old speed as it will fit into the pc. My laptop has USB a couple of USB-3 ports identified by a blue insert although yet I haven't noticed any difference in the three combinations.
Great video. Is it possible for a fuel to not work one day then come back another and starts fine? Sometimes I'll crank and no priming. Wait a day or so and starts just fine
Awesome video Eric. Never apologize for posting videos like this. What are ya, Canadian? :)
Thank u sir! 'Merican haha oh and BTW flashlight served well last week!
Awesome! So glad you're getting some use out of that flashlight :)
Tons actually!
on the wave form I counted six not eight. between both identical pattern on new pump.
how many armatures does a blower motor have
that pico is amazing, you need to use it more often
I plan on it
is this product usb, for use with a pc or laptop?
www.newark.com/pico-technology/picoscope-2204a-d2/oscilloscope-usb-2-ch-10mhz-100msps/dp/78X4278?CMP=KNC-GUSA-GEN-SHOPPING-NEW-PICO-TECHNOLOGY&ad=81605889141&gclid=CjwKEAjw1qHABRDU9qaXs4rtiS0SJADNzJisS0vZizU5-dubLWa_HJ7ESOxCzzAjm7D3AgTvv4VGcxoCBmDw_wcB
this product may not be fast enough for some automotive applications. but they can be found for about 190
some scopes are cheaper but the screen is small.
i have looked into scopes and it really all depends on the budget.
It is USB and used with laptop.
The analog discovery is also a function generator as opposed to what your link shows just an oscilloscope if that is worth anything to you
chris keiley this is the cheapest pico that you can buy ? does it have same amazing SW as the one Eric used ?
Hey Eric great videos! Can you only use that method if the fuse only has a specific component on that circuit? for example.. what if they had an evap pump running off the same fuse.. that's hypothetical. it can be any component.
NICE VIDEO ERIC IS THAT A FOUR CHANNEL SCOPE IM GOING TO GET THE AUTEL FOUR CHANNEL FOR MY PC JUST WANDERING WITCH ONE IS BETTER THANKS MIKE IF YOU KNOW
The Pico is the best of the best
Is there a cheaper tool you can use which is similar to the pico? Had a problem with intermittent starting on a Citroen Berlingo and we didnt know if it was the fuel pump or the fusebox(relays were integrated in the fusebox, you couldnt just change the relay) and if i had this tool it would help alot but idont feel that would use the pico for much more than just this kind of problem.
There are many scopes out there you can use. All different price ranges.
You can buy Hantek 1008C automotive scope kit and buy Hantek CC-65 60Ampere AC DC Clamp ammeter. Probably will have a total cost of US$ 137.00
Awesome.
tool works well, lots of info.
Thanks for the video.
Pico ! Nice ! Better yet, Nice ! Nice !
Seems a lot of good vibes on the use of the Pico. All Pico followers raise your right hand #%#% oh lordy-1/2 the population!! Where can I buy me a Pico without upsetting the local economy? Maybe excuse it on the cost of repairs going through the roof .
I left a link in the description plus AES wave sells them too.
Also... what if you multiply the Hertz you have by 60? Does that work?
The amps the average and not the peak when measured on this type of waveform, so bad waveform would have been drawing roughly 5-6 amps. If you think about it you can't be drawing more current when you have less commutators or poor brush contact.
always good, thank you ...
there did you get the 60,000 and 6.843 from? great video
Great video EricO. I would rather learn through training and videos than making a misinformed decision and be a parts replacer. You cannot have too much information or knowledge...
good video as always.
Eric, I am still getting familiar with the Pico also. Is there a tutorial on how to overlay the saved waveform? I cannot get the hang of that aspect and it is frustrating.
nice video. excellent job amigo
Awesome video, thanks for sharing this Eric, I'm reviewing🤣👍👌
HAHA, Nice to have all of them Tools. Don't know about you but I absolutely love the Pico, best money I ever spend LOL. Only wished that it would support a longer USB Cable. They told me they would look into that, fingers crossed!! Would be nice not having to drag a Laptop to the Car.
On a side Note, I did not see any custom Probes??
Custom probes in my drop down menu you mean?
Yes, being sarcastic lol Enjoy that new Tool!! One of the key features to me is the software's ability to add custom probes and create very accurate maps. Setting up Transducers of any type is a breeze. Snap-On only lets you use Snap-On. I may not be very clear here but I just love the fact that Pico allows me to set up anything I like and does the math for me.
Yes sir, Ivan already helped me set up custom probes for the homemade pressure transducer :)
Good for you, hope you will enjoy that tool as much as i do.
Picoscope = rusty parts cannon.
Nice piece of gear.
I would be wary of 6 Snap On tool trucks waiting for you when you arrive tomorrow morning though after that "kids toy" comment. just sayin