How to interpret fuel injector waveforms (a ScannerDanner Premium video)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- This is a ScannerDanner Premium video on chapter 17 of my book "Engine Performance Diagnostics" where I will be introducing how to read and interpret fuel injectors waveforms. Both voltage and current patterns as well as different driver designs will be discussed.
Engine Performance Diagnostics chapter 17
Playlist
- (Chapters 17, 18 and 19) Fuel Injector Testing
• (Chapters 17, 18 and 1...
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For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
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On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC. - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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I had heard recommendations to look into Scanner Danner but put it off. Found this video and thought "Wow, THIS is the level of content that I had thought vanished from TH-cam." Then I saw that this WAS Scanner Danner. You got yourself a sub!!!
Thank you so much! This is one of the classroom lectures I have on my website. I've posted some here on TH-cam too, but I have hundreds more. Would love to see you there. Sign up for the free trial, just cancel before the 14 days are up and you won't be charged.
I'm mentioning this because when I see the excitement in your words, I know I have what you're looking for.
This lecture was in my chapter 17 playlist btw
www.scannerdanner.com/join-scannerdanner-premium.html
@@ScannerDanner Awesome! I will certainly check it out!! I have a lot of work to do for a fleet of early Duramaxs and 6.5 diesels. I have always fancied myself an ok wrench turner and a novice level electronics enthusiast, but trying to accurately pinpoint issues in the CAN systems or anything with a PWM drivers has been beyond me for a while. I am looking at getting an oscilloscope, but between all the money I have to pour into my OWN truck, and all that I have spent so far, I don't think I am ready to swing several thousands again (check your u-joints....your entire driveline will thank you hahaha)
What would be a good 2 channel scope (minimum?) to get my hands on in the $200 ~ $500 range? I was at first opposed to PC based scopes, but now looking at the software available, and having used my Flashscan for EFI tuning, I have really grown to like multichannel diagnostics, as well as having a larger screen to make sense of all that data at once 😅
Here is the short version. I was six months old when my father died, had an abusive step father from age 6 to 15. Hated everyone and everything, used drugs to find a happy place, took 15 more years to kick it, found a new "high" and that is through my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Somewhere in the middle of all of this I found my love for electricity and electronics.
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Philippians 4:13
I am nothing on my own.
Stats show that children are 20-30 times more likely to experience abuse with a step parent in the house. Not 20%. 20 times. And I am really sorry to hear about that. And am glad that you overcame it and found joy in your life. It's funny; I would call myself an atheist primarily, but know a man who is in touch with god when I see one. Because he is typically living a principled, happy life, and seem to go about it in such a ferocious, dedicated manner. Thanks for all of your work Danner.
Stats show that children are 20-30 times more likely to experience abuse with a step parent in the house. Not 20%. 20 times. And I am really sorry to hear about that. And am glad that you overcame it and found joy in your life. It's funny; I would call myself an atheist primarily, but know a man who is in touch with god when I see one. Because he is typically living a principled, happy life, and seem to go about it in such a ferocious, dedicated manner. Thanks for all of your work Danner.
Thankyou I need to read this I was 19 when I joined the royal Australian Navy as a electronics engineer and my family was so proud of me after a traumatic experience in my training my life went down hill I lost myself and turned to drugs after I left I'm now 33 and finally found love for life and people like you understand how something like electronics and the Lord can bring you home to that place of true happiness.
Praise the Lord Paul! Let let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. Matthew 5:16
Wow man, this testimony is amazing! Bless you! I just got licensed as an automotive technician in Toronto, Canada last week. I had some solid teachers but my last level of school (which was mostly diag) was done virtually because of COVID. Anyways I’m constantly reading and viewing your videos and my notes to become a better tech. Yea man ALL GLORY TO THE TRIUNE GOD! Be encouraged and continue to post content. Thank you sir!
Anytime I watch a video of yours I shake my head....You are just too good! I learn something the second a Scanner Danner video starts playing. God Bless you Sir!
😂thanks man
Here I am over 6 years later, not sure how I missed this one but it still gave me my SD fix today. Thanks Paul.
I am very impressed. I watch these videos over and over. Great job in sharing your experience and making it easy to understand. I will be subscribing to the Premium. I have had trouble with these waveforms for years. These videos are excellent trouble shooting guides for me. Thanks again Sir.
Thanks Jeremy. Then you will definitely love what I have available on my premium channel. Look forward to reading your comments over there.
I recently purchased a Pico 4425. I was just gathering injector wave forms on my 2007 Jeep GC WK with the 5.7L Hemi, and my 2011 Mustang GT 5.0. I got two different voltage patterns. I had seen the Jeep pattern previously but not the Mustang. I went looking for a reference and found this video. I printed out the wave forms and added the notes from this video. This was a huge help. Thanks. I also have been following your videos and I subscribe to your SD Premium. I was not aware of your personal story. Congratulations on finding your way. Wishing you continued success.
Another great video. Your book is great and with the videos to help explain makes it just awesome. You are the best instructor I have ever had the pleasure of learning from. Thank you very much!!
Excellent series. Using what I learned I found the defective wire in the harness between the injector and the ECM. By cutting the pulsing orange lead to injector #3 at the ECM and at the injector and splicing in a new segment of wire, I bypassed the break that was somewhere in the harness.
Great video! You explain things very well and make it seam simple. Well done!
thank you. Big fan and Ive used all the skills that ive learned from your teachings in the videos.
Another great video. And your premium channel is awesome. Thanks Paul!
Thanks bro
HI Paul, you are a Beacon of Hope and a Great Mentor.
It's amazing how life is. I finally figured it out after 50 years I think, That were all here to help each other not help thyself, If your where you are suppose to be and doing what your suppose to be doing, the rest will FALL into place. And life will be a blessing in many many ways. I came here because i was stumped about an injector current waveform that i had never seen before and low and behold look what your talking about. Peak and hold and that's just exactly what my waveform looks like.
Hi, i have recently discovered your channel, i am amazed and speechless . You are a very very good teacher and a good man. Thanks to you i undestand my car in more detail. Now i am not afraid anyomore if i will have a problem with my car. Thank you 1000 times! If you were near me i have shake your hands and buy you a dozen of beer !
Great Video. I am playing with this on my Hantek Scope now to see what it looks like. I have also noticed that sometimes unplugging the alternator will get rid of some of the noise so I can see the pintle movement a little better. I want to do a video on testing injectors with Noid Lights/Test Light, Power Probe 4, and a scope and what you can tell from each and under what circumstances you want to use each. I'm playing and learning. Nothing better that seeing a bunch of good ones to make a bad one stand out when you see it.
Thank you Benjamin. I wasn't sure how well the above comment would be received, but I am not ashamed of my faith.
Romans1:16
Thank you Danner for these 2 diff type of injector design's. Exellent explanation, I know if I need a refresher i can look up some of your videos. Will definitely register for Premium.
Thank you Juan!
You are a tRue Blessing to all us blooming Technicians who Love tHE Lord Jesus tHe Christ and look forward to the "Great Garage in the sky." Thank you sir for so freely given what knowledge and wisdom you have been given. God Bless everything you set your hands to do.
awesome video very informative
First I would like to point out that there are teachers and then there are teachers. You are a teacher in the truest sense. Someone can know everything there is about a topic but not be able to convey it in such a way that you get it and want more of it. That is a true gift. Though I did drivability work at the dealership in the early GM computer days it was not with this kind of understanding. My primary specialty has always been automatic transmissions and few have looked at waveforms for diagnosis. I briefly touched on it about 15 years ago in a simple on/off solenoid (as opposed to a PWM controlled). It does occur to me that though on time is measured in millivolts, in reality it appears that it is less than that due to the pintle opening once it reaches sufficient magnetism to actually move the pintle. However, I see the closing on the voltage scale (something I did not know about at that previous time in my life) and it seems like the "On time" and the area where the pintle is open are very similar, though slightly shifted start to finish. Obviously strictly an engineering issue, similar to whatever motivated the designers to use a particular type of injector but a matter of curiosity just the same.
Thanks so much!
Brilliant video as always
Excellent presentation!
This video is so knowledge packed that it gave me a headache trying to catch every bit of info spread through out, Thank you very much SD.
Glad it was helpful!
Very good thank you. Have a good year
As always, thank you.
thank you very much!
Thanks Carlos
@MyCooley123 Thank you for you comment! I think it means more coming from someone else. Thanks
I could listen to him talk about injectors all fricken day long....... awesome!!!! I wish I went to this college.
Thank you!
Nice teaching ty sir idol.
well explained
An excellent paul danner lesson 🍺🍺🇲🇦🇲🇦
You can perform this test on any port fuel injected system that uses a saturated switch injector (which most do). I am not sure if you would want to use this timer tool on a peak and hold injector. Fortunately I cannot remember when the last time I saw a peak and hold injector on a PFI system.
As for using the current clamp on anything with less than one amp you will get some noise in the picture. You can try filtering it and also moving it away from any ignition components
I have paid good money for presentations that were grossly inferior to what you are putting up on TH-cam free of charge. But don't go getting any clever ideas :) To anyone reading I bought Paul's diagnostics E-Book, best buy I made in 2011, brilliant! I have said to Paul by e-mail, I hope his students appreciate just what an awesome teacher they have.
I know this is a decade old , but I'm having trouble finding anyone who's not affiliated with Danner or anything. I'm just lookig for honest feedback on the book. I'm thinking of buying it cause I'm at my wits end with my truck. But I'm worried that the info in there is limited unless you have all the cool gadgets
@@denvercasto733 The book was worth it, even with only a multimeter there's a huge amount of info that will help anyone get a grasp of how modern automotive management and wiring systems work, how they fail, and how to diagnose them.
First of all: another great video !
You can also find a different design of peak n hold. Aplying full 12V for about 1-2ms and then changing control voltage to PWM mode to maintain injector open and limit current dynamically. Commonly used with low ohm gasoline and LPG injectors.
Zener diode you said about is actually a transil or TVS diode.
yes! I've seen a few of those
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ knowledge and power
Thanks Sir.
@ChrisWilson5006 Thanks Chris, that was cool of you to post that here. I owe you one.
Paul
@GolfVariantCL Thank you and Eric (a fellow Rosedale Tech graduate)
He has my friend and thank you. Also I would feel just as blessed if I had nothing. Look at the apostle Paul. He was imprisoned, beaten, bound in chains and ultimately martyred and was full of joy and peace! We are NOT promised prosperity when we follow Jesus like all of these modern day "preachers" say. We are promised joy in ALL circumstances!
Nice! And I agree. This whole "self esteem" crap that we teach our children these days is a complete 180 from the truth! We are to esteem others MORE THAN OURSELVES.
All your videos deserve more views ! They are great !
I found out about you in EricTheCarGuy's FATR btw :D
Buenísimo.
Hi Paul , do you have any videos on the gdi injector operation and testing? thanks, Great videos , keep up the great work
AMEN MASTER....you are amazing... DIOS TE CUIDA TE AYUDA A AYUDAR A LOS DEMAS SIGUE ADELATE MAESTRO.. YO SOY TU FIEL SEGUIDOR,
make me really understand.. osioloscop very important for mechanic 👍
thanks....
I 'd have to say, Paul, some day these presentations will be gone, I will be gone...internal combustion engines will be no more. I don't fear, I will continue to enjoy what you put out. I have also seen inferior presentations that cost much more than this. You have a gift or talent for communicating; you must be thinking sleeping and eating cars, cars - twenty four seven. Good job, buddy.
Thank you so much Don!
thankss
@fivefortyeye540i Absolutely not. Of course there is heavy scope usage, but I offer an alternative DVOM test whenever possible. If you watch some of my videos you will see the limitations of a DVOM but I still show it. There is also scan data diagnostics too, so the scope is only part of it. I am sure some of the book owners would back me up on this. Maybe they could comment here?
My peak and hold was on a 94 Acura Legend 3.2. I should send you the capture it looks pretty wild, to me anyway. When i rev up the motor the amp line goes wavy but never over 6 amps. I'm going to try and put it on IATN. I don't know how much of it i can put on there.
the fuel injection timing change even a litle like the ignition timing?, or the pcm fire the injectors at the same angle all the time no matter the engine load and speed?
So my friend I know you are where you are suppose to be and doing what you are suppose to be doing and i don't doubt it one bit that since you have started this your life has been blessed in many many ways. You have made my life a lot easier and i'm sure many others alike. You've got a friend for eternity. God bless you and your family. I don't want to sound like a religious nut cause i don't even go to a church, I just know there is a God who saved us all with his son and he has blessed you.
thank you, it's very hulpfull. if you want explaine the waveforme the injector diesel
am here again for the 💯 time...
SCANNERDANNER, can you post a youtube video showing on the oscilloscope what good and bad "spark plug" oscilloscope waveforms look like? How would you know if you spark plugs are good or bad by only looking at the injector waveforms or ignition coil waveforms on the oscilloscope? I have seen you videos of you showing the ignition coils waveforms and injector waveform but never the spark plug waveform any reasons why?
Scannerdanner, to sum up ur book would u say it mostly revolve around scope testing?? Can someone without a 8 plus grand scope utilize your book?
If you have an injector with a weak magnetic field strength what does that mean bad injector or weak power feed?
I really like your videos ,and can understand alot of your vocabulary. Anyways I have a question that I'm sure you might have seen in you experience. Not sure if you mentioned it, but here it is. Have you ever seen an amperage wave form that drops out and back in? I was testing a 2004 chevy colorado fuel injector with 3.5 liter engine. I was using aes wave's 1 channel scope.
okay, now to the original question? "drops out and back in" can have everything to do with your scope settings, in particular the trigger level and time base selected
hello, I have a very special situation .... my zero is -45V (not 0 or close to zero but minus 45v !!) it lasts 1ms and goes up to 108V (lasts less than .5ms). How is this possible?. I checked the oscilloscope several times. Its a Nissan Pathfinder VQ30
So Peak and Hold injector works like similar to an LED light 💡 bulb and a Saturated injector similar to an incandescent light 💡 bulb?
I have 98 Subaru Forester it runs great for about 2 miles then start missing off and on until i stop and it cools off. There no codes. I have change the coil ,plug wires, spark plugs and computer. Does this sound like an injector. I do not have much test equipment and being that it has be hot. This makes it hard to trouble shoot.
Really enjoy your videos they are well done!
Thanks
Jim
Injectors usually do not exhibit this type of symptom, though it is possible. I would also want to know what the cam and crank signals are doing during this event.
Oh yeah I do have the trigger in the middle of the current ramp. Also what would cause a drop out followed by a drop in in a current ramp waveform?
let's start over. Please, please, stay in one comment. You know you can edit them right? What you don't see is the 50 comments I am answering between your comments. It is impossible to follow.
Hi Paul is it safe to perform injector balance test on peak and hold injectors with injector tester. I have 1987 porsche 944 with injector problem. Will I burn good injector if I use injector tester to test flow. Hope this question make sense. Thank you.
I don't think you can use the same tester. The risk is to both to the tool and the injector.
Post this to my forum. We can talk more there. Great question!
www.scannerdanner.com/forum/post-your-repair-questions-here.html
ScannerDanner OK I will thank you so much for your time .
I can explain why the Honda injector has the series resistor and opens faster. Inductors (coils) resist changes in current. The larger the inductor--the longer it will take for the injector to saturate (coil to reach maximum magnetic field and open). Placing the resistor at the coil limits the maximum current cheaply. The low inductance allows the injector to open quicker. In a Peak and Hold, the inductance is also low and therefore opens faster. (continued)
Thanks a lot for very interested video!
1) Could you explain what you mean "...pintle honk should occur 60% of ramp.." @ 29min 43sec ?
2) How to calculate real time of phisically opened injector by using pulse width only ?
Thank in advance!
Pintle hump. Check out my "stuck closed injector 'case study
Always great info in your videos,how ever this question has nothing to do with your video....,2014 Chevy Cruze ,AC motor clutch engaged ,Condenser fan does not come on ,Radiator fan comes on when temp sensor gets to 220,,,,but below that temp ,ac compressor is engaged and running but not Condenser fan ..and it's the same fan,Could that be ambient temp sensor reading cold temp ,?
I'd have to look at the condenser fan circuit but the systems will either turn the fan on all the time with the AC on or it will be done with a high side psi sensor
@@ScannerDanner I was reading some ware about the ambient temperature so I applied some heat to it while running,but nothing changes,I changed the pressure sensor that's on the lower part of the condenser it was a Amazon part ...keep on putting those great videos,your doing a great job
Very similar to your friend Roman. Except his father was behind bars for "Thou shalt not kill" thing. And he hit his step father back with lead pipes.
(continued) With the Peak and Hold, the current is allowed to spike higher initially for a short duration causing the coil to saturate faster and then quickly limited to a lower value. This current control is done at the computer. Looking at the total ohms is somewhat misleading as this is a coil (solenoid, inductor). When comparing injectors, it is better to think of total impedance (inductive reactance + resistance). You can also measure the inductance value.
Would it be dangerous to energizes a peak and hold injector with a fuel injector tester which pulses or just to energizes it with a constant power/ground?
I wouldn't recommend it. The peak section is like 1ms long? At best you are 100ms by hand
I know its been 7 years, but what would the waveform look like if there was high resistance on the ground side? thank you for your time and any answer is very much appreciated.
It would look something like this th-cam.com/video/eoodIVGgGyw/w-d-xo.html
I am trying to find the video where you found a injector falling out and you were showing the difference between duty cycle and pusle width. I have not been able to find it.
+Frater Perdurabo I've done it a few times. You will find it in the Vantage Pro and Verus Series as well as in one of the last lectures in section 3. Hope that helps. Thanks!
Comment to fivefortyeye-To back up what Danner is saying,when he hooks up the scope he is showing you the waveform,but when he is showing the waveform,he is also talking about voltage,amp etc.lets take the waveform coming from a fuel pump,although you dont have a scope ,you can measure amp.and voltage with your meter and follow along his testing,buy the book and follow him through step by step,try it let him know how you make out.
I would assume that it's either losing a power or ground for the drop out and drop in, but what's weird is the amperage waveform does not drop out. Ok thanks. Found where I can edit. My original question was that why was my amperage waveform dropping out and in when I had the trigger right on the middle of the waveform, but I think what happen was I adjusted either my time base or voltage ,and the scope automatically changes the trigger from normal to auto or single, and that was causing the waveform to look like it was dropping out and in. Next day I tried it again and made sure I still had a normal trigger. So now I'm a little confused on why I'm getting only about 1 Amp on the feed wire for all the fuel injectors. At first I was thinking " ok this circuit is a parallel circuit, and should be getting around 4 or 5 amps being that it's a 5 cylinder, but then I said " this is a sequential fuel system so each fuel injector is a series circuit, and spray in sequential order, and that's why I'm only reading about 1 Amp on the feed wire to all injectors. So just wanted to ask if I'm correct on thinking that the fuel injection circuits are each a series circuit ?
ah, is this the other comment? It helps me if you just edit your comment when you want to ad something rather than leaving a new one days later. What is your question?
peak and hold injector ,this system is used on the GDI system. can you do a case study on a GDI fuel system
+George Rodgers I have some GDI stuff on my premium channel, just some waveforms and stuff we talked about in class. No case studies yet, but they will be coming for sure.
how does it look an open fuel injector waveform?? does it have a hump?? whats the measurements?
an open will be no waveform at all and depending on where the open is you will have a flatline 0v or 12v signal
In my design days at IBM we had several ways to reduce the pick time of an electromagnet. We used them on clutches, print hammer actuators etc. The simplest was to use a capacitor in series with the magnet coil and a resistor in parallel to the capacitor. When the switch closes, the current is only limited by the capacitor with is near zero resistance initially. When the capacitor gets charged the current flows only through the resistor which provides the hold current. When the switch opens, the capacitor is discharged by the parallel resistor. We also used flyback diodes, usually in parallel with the coil to quickly collapse the magnetic field. It would be interesting to see what is inside the PCM for pick and hold systems.
Alright Paul, where is your autobiography?
Opps, I see that you explained this but not in terms of inductance. I didn't allow the video to go further. Just need to think of total impedance rather than resistance.
I know this video is old now but maybe someone will see it and my question...
Since the voltage waveform shows the injector commanded on time (i.e. the commanded pulse width), shouldn't that time also match the DC current waveform from mechanical pintile opening dip to mechanical pintile closing dip on the voltage waveform?
Pretty sure they are close (mechanical movement times)
@@ScannerDanner yeah I thought they should be too. I didn't mean specifically in this video, but I saw a video from someone else on a supposedly known good sample and the commanded on time via voltage waveform was like 25% longer than the actual mechanical on time from pintile open to pintile close on the waveform. This was an idle waveform as well.
@@bluegizmo1983 within this conversation is why it is so important that you use factory parts whenever possible because mechanical construction can be a factor
It would matter if the battery
Is losing Voltage.
my gdi has three peakes...its an old mitsubihi
GDI injectors have different characteristics than what I've shown in this video
Sorry. This next statement is continuation from prior comment. .... does not drop out on the feed wire to all injectors.
sorry, I'm not following
This
(this car does not start)
Like si lo quieres al menos con sub títulos en español... Gracias
Puede agregar subtítulos en español si lo desea. ¡Estaría agradecido si lo hicieras!