Was Job a real person? (And who are Behemoth and Leviathan??)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 มิ.ย. 2022
- In this excerpt from my interview with Biblical scholar J. Richard Middleton, we discuss the historicity of the book of Job (as well as Jonah!), and some mysterious figures found in its pages!
For a much wider range we covered, see the full video at the link below!
Previous Dojo Interviews:
Dr. J. Richard Middleton - • Video
Dr. Carmen Imes - • A Hebrew Bible scholar...
Elder Michael Holloway - • An Urban Apologist (El...
Related DiscipleDojo videos:
Dragons in the Bible?? - • Do DRAGONS exist in th...
Superhero Seminary: Aquaman explains Leviathan - • Aquaman explains Levia...
Dr. Middleton's Books and Resources can be found at:
Abraham's Silence - tinyurl.com/3x94apv6
A New Heaven and New Earth - tinyurl.com/zjn74thh
The Liberating Image: The Imago Dei in Genesis 1 - tinyurl.com/249zfsm6
Articles and blog - www.jrichardmiddleton.com
Seminary Now - seminarynow.com/
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Excellent video. I appreciate you talked about Jonah too. I was wondering about that book too.
Disciple Dojo, I love your channel. I pray that your channel grows, because I always learn from them. God bless
Thank you!
Great episode!
Wow fascinating stuff! So cool that he wants to do a bible commentary on Job with you JM! 😀🙌🏼
Yes, a lay-friendly study guide on Job is SORELY needed!
I would love to see your collaboration on a study guide for Job.
Woooo, this was good!
Thanks for watching!
John Walton’s TH-cam series on Job is really good as is his book on demons and spirits in biblical theology. Really challenging and mind-blowing. As a result of studying his books I have come to a really non-spooky view of the topic.
Leviathan and behemoth are wild and fearless creatures, who can stand firm in the storms and chaos. This is what Job is exhorted to be as well as he faces his troubles.
Isn’t Job written in a similar vein to that of Plato?
That being, an allegory to get a point across.
Who's the Exodus Scholar you are referring to at 17:50?
Carmen Imes
Dr. Carmen Imes (who was our first Dojo Dialogue guest a while back!)
This seems to bring up the debate on the bible being inerrant. At least in fundamentalist christian circle it is in no way errant. I'm curious, where do you stand on the bible being inerrant and or infallible. Thank you for all your videos. I'm learning so much.
Me too!
I don't think it affects an evangelical view of inerrancy to recognize genre as weighing against historicity in some books (like Job or Jonah), because it's not saying they *couldn't* be historical because of supernatural claims or any "errors" in the text...but rather because of internal genre traits that point toward something more than a 'literal' account. For more on the perspective I operate from, see Session 4 of our Bible For the Rest of Us course here on the channel or at www.discipledojo.org/bible :-)
This is fascinating to because i was raised to believe that these books are historical, but thanks to teachers like Tim Mackie, i have come to understand the different genres of literature included in the Bible. A question i have in several instances where stories are told, such as the story of Balaam and the donkey in Numbers, how can we know what was historical and what was myth? Surely Balaam didnt go around telling humiliation to anyone, so how did it come to be known? My point is this: Is there a general rule for identifying old testament history vs story?
I think genre is important. Numbers is definitely stylized literature, but not a similar genre to Job. I take the Balaam cycle as historical overall, but not in a play-by-play way. How did Balaam's encounter with the mal'ak YHWH on the road get reported, for instance? It would have to have been communicated directly to the author (possibly Moses) by God...or else by Balaam himself. That's possible. But pressing it for historical/scientific details actually gets us away from the purpose of the text itself in many ways, IMO.
@@DiscipleDojo I apologize that my first comment was such a ramble. I should clarify. Your assertion that looking to it for scientific or historical details should not be the focus is agreeable. However, if we consider Numbers a historical account, then I expect to find a reasonable explanation for how the account was recorded. It just seems odd that the story, in such detail, would have made it back to Moses. I want to make sure that I have strong reason to believe that the book of Numbers is the true word of God.
🙏💯
Evidences and the Historicity of Job
Job was a descendant of Nahor - Abraham's brother - from the tribe of Uz. Elihu was a descendant of Nahor as well, but from the tribe of Buz. Bildad was from the tribe of Shua, a descendant of Abraham and Keturah. Zophar was from an unknown tribe, the Naamathites, which some suggest derives from Naamah, a feminine name meaning "beautiful", but it is possible that he was a tribe that inhabited the mountains of northwest Arabia. Lastly, Eliphaz was a descendant of Teman, the son of Esau, and Abraham.
In Genesis 39 and Chronicles, it describes the kings of Teman who ruled Edom.
The Land of Uz was close to the Gulf of Aqaba. In Job's time, Egypt was the greatest and most powerful power in the world. Egypt explored this region a lot in Aqaba and the Suez Canal.
The Bible (The Greatest Historical Record in the World), describes that Job was the greatest of the men of the East. This confirms that Egypt was indeed the greatest power, for by the time Job was born or very young, Joseph and Pharaoh Senusret had "raised" and "transformed" Egypt.
Job had contacts with the Sabeans (South Arabia) and the Chaldeans (Mesopotamia), who would later be acquitted by Babylon.
According to the Bible Chronology and a book called "The Book of Job: Archaelogical, Chronological and Historical", Job would have lived from 1710-1500 BC.
We know that Job died at the age of 140, and his friend Elihu was alive in the days of Moses.
From the references in Job, we can conclude that he lived during the post-Flood "Ice Age".
In Job 6:15-20, Job responds to his friends that "caravans coming from Teman (the land of Eliphaz) perished in search of "snow", which in the time of heat dries up. Elihu, in Job 37:9-10, makes a possible reference to the Ice Age, when glaciers and snow covered parts of the United States, Russia, Europe, Canada, Greenland, parts of China, Korea and Japan, Patagonia and Antarctica); in the Northern and Southern Hemisphere.
Job has probably never seen glaciers, but he has certainly heard about them. The book also mentions heavy rains and storms, as during the Ice Age, there were severe ocean storms and hurricanes (Job 1).
During the Ice Age, much of the Earth was very fertile. Egypt and the Arabian Peninsula was full of vegetation and with diverse animals. This confirms why Job's flocks were "grazing". However, herds do not graze in the snow!
Job 29:2, Job tells his friends that he has been suffering "for months". Therefore, Job's friends only visited him during the winter. God also tells Job about "the depths of the waters being frozen".
At the time, it rained a lot in Egypt.
The Book of Job mentions Satan's historic attacks on Job. These are the Sons of God - angels - the psis of the Nephilim of Genesis 6:1-4.
Job 39, 40 and 41, mentions 3 huge curious creatures, along with donkeys, horses, eagles, hawks, grasshoppers, dogs, ostriches, etc. They are, the Re'em, the Behemoth and the Leviathan.
Who are they??
The Re'em may have been an aurochs (Bos Primigenius), a strong bull that was used for sporting battles in Sumer.
However, Job 39:9-12, says that he "canNOT BE TAMED and is USELESS for AGRICULTURAL WORK". Some translations suggest the Oryx, which was used as a sacrifice by the Egyptians, and the rhinoceros.
Rhinoceroses would be the best creature for God's description, for with their size and monstrous availability, they would be impossible to plow the fields and stay in the stables.
But rhinos don't run like oxen! This is not a problem, as a very strong contender is Elasmotherium, a unicorn rhino that lived in the Ice Age.
In Job's day, as the land of Uz was fertile and lush, herds of Elasmotherium may have inhabited this region before migrating to Kazakhstan, Persia, China and Turkey, for example.
Re'em is similar to Sumerian: Rimu. The Persians called a rhinoceros unicorn "Karkadann", which may have been the Iranotherium and is said to have poisons in its horns. Also on stamps from the Indus Valley we see "unicorns or aurochs". On the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, elephants, baboons, dromedary camels, oryx, oxen, and possibly the Elasmotherium (Siberian unicorn, or the Indian unicorn) are depicted. On this Obelisk, King Jehu of Israel appears.
Behemoth was a sauropod (Titanosaurus, Apatosaurus, Brachiosaurus), while Leviathan may have been a Deinosuchus, which had an enlarged chamber and may have been a fire-breathing animal.
Extra-Biblical Evidence for Job:
Historical records include: the Ludlul Bel Nemeqi, Man and his God, Man and his Ba, Babylonian Theodicy, Dialogue of a Man Tired of Living.
These biblical-historical-scientific evidence confirm the events of Job and their historicity.
He lived in the Patriarchal Age between Joseph and Moses.
GOD BLESS FROM BRAZIL!!!
By that logic, the play "Hamilton" and the movie "Braveheart" are both historically accurate.
some one please explain to me how can you say no where in the bible does it talk about the primordial fall of stan when luke 10- 18 says He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven , i jsut need calryfication are we talking about the use of the actual word satan or the coencpt of the devil !
@@kapibarra134 see the SuperheroSeminary video here on the channel where Prof. Daredevil explains the reference Jesus is making.
Job was stricken with dieseases and he was patient. His features was weird due to the dieseas he acquired. He was an Egyptian king after Joseph who served Tutmoses III passed away.
Where are you getting any of that from?
@@DiscipleDojo ancient Egyptian history
Can you give a primary source? This sounds like urban legend, so I'd like to see the data.
@@DiscipleDojo i love to quote from Biblical history about Job who said dark color rises from his skin. He was saying he is dark colored skin. He was a mitzraim...an Egyptian born from an Egyptian woman. Joseph was from Judah and he had children while he was a steward in the King's Palace. His grandchildren became one of the Egyptian king in the 17th dynasty.
Is the Bible always literal? No, but that is so not the point. Is the Bible always true? Yes. The message is always true. The Bible is the infallible Word of God, whether or not this or that is actually literal. This question has been bothering me, until I started to realize “what does it matter?” Just my opinion. Thanks, and God bless.
One of the meanings of the name Elihu is "He is (my) God" which makes me think of Jesus. I'm not saying it's a theophany but the fact he wasn't rebuked is interesting. Also God appears right after Elihu is done speaking.
I was hoping he would connect Leviathan and Behemoth with the land and sea monsters from Revelation 13. Jesus conquers over both in Revelation and in Job both monsters are nothing compared to God.
Good points 💭😬
Agree!
Yeah, I'm undecided on Elihu's role in the book. Richard makes some good points, but I also think that one could make the case for him as a voice of correction to Job's friends in some ways. I think one must hold either interpretation with loose hands.
@@DiscipleDojo to me Elihu reminds me of the incident on the road to Emmaus when Jesus appeared to the two disciples. A truth was revealed to the disciples then a revelation of who was among them. I might be over reaching but I'm just stating that there's a parallel there. I could be wrong though, lol.
I found your interview with Dr. Imes more up my alley. Thanks for the content!
The land and the sea beasts in Rev 13 of course do have a lot in common with leviathan (the sea monster) and behemoth (the land beast). But in Revelation the context is a specific political power that was ruling the land of Israel and persecuting the saints. The dragon in Revelation is the sea monster of Is. 27, i.e. the ancient serpent of the sea. In Is. 27 this sea serpent is Israel, wayward Israel, which is slain by YHWH himself, when he destroys the temple altar and the fortified city of Jerusalem. This character re-appears in Revelation as the dragon, especially in ch 12. This character under Herod the Great tries to kill the infant Christ, as the back-story to the later context when this dragon is then persecuting the saint’s for a short time, 42 months.
In ch 13 this ancient serpent gives its power and throne to the beast, a short term incumbent government of the ancient dragon. The beast is a new character, thee dragon an ancient one. The beast is the government of the dragon for the short time of 42 months.
The land beast is a figure in the government of the beast, which is a government of the dragon-political power or kingdom or state, i.e. Second Temple Israel.
The beast of Rev. 13 is the little horn of The Fourth Beast of Dan. 7, which also rules for 42 months (time, times, and half a time). When the little horn of Dan. 7 is judged and destroyed, the Fourth Beast is also destroyed and the kingdom of God comes in power, as the Son of Man comes with the clouds. This is a very specific event at the end of Old Covenant Israel, when the Second Temple is destroyed and Jerusalem is desolated. This happened in AD 70 per the Lord’s words (Mat. 23:29-24:35) when Daniel was fulfilled. The book of Job doesn’t have anything to to with these events or the land beast and the sea beast.
Didn’t Jesus affirm Jonah’s story?
Jesus referred to Jonah. Whether he was referring to him as a character or an historical person is something interpreters debate.
UNSEEN REALM- DR. MICHAEL HEISER. He is an expert on UGARITIC texts.
Dr. Carmen Imes and I discussed Heiser in the interview with her here on the channel: th-cam.com/video/XqimZ4Spw1k/w-d-xo.html
Persian Bahamut
Gezundheidt
@@DiscipleDojo whats that got too do with Job