MJ's career is really the freakiest soon as you tried going deeper into the details. No wonder why he is recognized as the best to lace up for the game of basketball. Great vid. Loved it.
I have no problem when someone says that Wilt would average 50 now. The lane is completely open in today’s game and defense is lackluster at best. Wilt wouldn’t have got that in the 80’s, 90’s or 2000’s but with the weak defense that is played now and there being so much focus on offense only, I have no problem with that assertion.
Agree 100% but the thing is Wilt Chamberlain probably wouldn't be playing in today's game if he couldn't shoot a 3 pointer! Todays game sucks no inside game at all with big men like wemby and jokic trolling the 3 point line i mean i miss the day when 7 footers clogged the lane and guarded the basket blocked shots and actually did 7 footer things!!
Wilt was still being recruited in the 1980's when he was in his 50's. And he shut down arguably the best player in the 80's Magic Johnson in pick up games, Johnson couldn't get a shot off...How much more would he dominate the 1980's in his prime.
@@joeysweet9045Wilt actually WAS the inventor of the fadeaway jumper from bigs. He was accurate with his "fall-away" (WC's name for his fade...) out beyond 20 feet. He was regularly TRIPLE TEAMED, even AWAY from the ball. Double teams were used for a LONG time before MJ. For instance, WC was only single-covered by the very best defenders, like B. Russell (often called best defender EVER), Nate Thurmond (ONE of the very best defensive big men), etc.
In all fairness, Jordan got triple teamed, and he still split them, got to the basket and scored anyway. If Wilt was in this crap era, I think he'd do well. He wasn't playing the type of talent there is today, though. I would've loved to see him, in his prime battling guys like Joker or Wemby. Especially Wemby. That post game would be a blast to watch .
It (Double team) did exist before Jordan. The video just pulled random clips of single coverage and made a narrative. Jordan got single coverage Defense too. Every play wasn't a double team for Jordan same way every play wasn't single coverage Defense for earlier players. Editing does wonders, and will have you believing something not true
I've been playing ball since the 90s. In NYC. The sentiment was double teaming was a sign of weakness. There was help. But you didn't full on double. Till Jordan. Even in college. I didn't see much double team. True double.
5:45 I kinda agree also although I know a lot of people will disagree. I don't think Wilt had a ton of impact on winning with his teams, when he won his first championship, he was the 5th leading scorer on his own team.
It was definitely empty stats. Perhaps the most dominant force on a court ever, but he didn't win.... 🤷 Kind of the definition of empty stats. But those stats though... 😅
Am in total shock over this video, just same like the more you probe into MJ's legacy the more you are left with your mouth wide open😮 However what this dude said was all facts. Back in the day players took pride in guarding their man one v one, that pride comes from putting in the work, you had to be in top shape, in strength and defensive conditioning, which means hours upon hours of practice. This was why 1v1 basketball was held as the "Gold Standard" of defining who was the better player. You were looked down as weak, if you weren't able to keep up with your man.😎👍🥂.
Where you paused it on Jordan's free-throw. Notice he was by himself there. He got fouled as time expired bulls down 2 pts. Nailed both free throws to go to overtime. Thats pressure
Not just that, it was a three pointer that he was fouled on but in those rules, you still only got two free throws. If he got three shots like he would today, they could have won that game and the next game looks different. he could have won the championship before they figured out the double team. They are on the list of greatest teams in NBA history and he was a rule change away from beating them by himself.
Regarding the question about double-teaming, I made a breef research and the answer might lie in how strictly referees enforced the rules back then. They could double team from the beginning but they dind't as much as they started to do with MJ, but maybe even the slightest hint of a zone defense could have been called as a violation. Offensive strategies may have been designed to exploit this, forcing defenses to rely primarily on one-on-one matchups. Over time, double-teaming became more common, but even then, violations were sometimes called if the second defender wasn’t fully committed to the double team. Perhaps in the 1960s, referees called these violations even more strictly, discouraging teams from taking the risk of employing such defensive strategies. This is all speculative of course and would require a closer look at historical officiating trends for confirmation and I don't have the means to do this research but it's a very interesting historical thing to research!
"slightest hint of a zone defense could have been called as a violation. " Beat me to it, Alex.. Was gonna say maybe refs would think it some type of zone.. Great minds!!
This is new, I've never heard this argument explained like this! At this point only one question comes to my mind: how much better would have been MJ if they tried to stop him only with single coverage during his career?
I've said for years that LeBron is the modern day wilt chamberlain. Someone with such gaudy stats you wonder why they didn't win more. But when you look at wilt, the years he won were when he focused on rebounding and defense and significantly curtailed his scoring. The years LeBron won he had a decisive talent advantage on his team, and in two of them needed a great shooter to bail him out. Ray Allen in 2013 and Kyrie Irving in 2016, miracle shots to secure a win. The rest of his career? Empty stats that don't lead to winning. And that's my knock on wilt
@@TheRealMindCrime I think I can help with wilt was it empty stats. A quote from bill Russell on how he beat or guard Wilt. He said something like I knew that Wilt will go for 40 or more and I could not stop him, so I was just trying to slow him down. At the end at the game wilt will be happy to have score 40 and I will be happy because we would have won the game. I don't remember the exact quote, but Bill was saying that he was pushing Wilt to eat possesions because each time he will try to score so his team will lose like that. BUT I don't think that what you call empty stats, the NBA was young and Wilt was just playing his game and have fun. Thinking doing his best was enough. Bill was smart and absolutly hate to lose for what I know. Same family than Mike, Kobe, Larry Wilt is in the same family than Shaq or Bron they can be happy with some side quest, Shaq could have been the goat but he is happy with the more dominant player ever. The last '' family'' ( everybody hate too lose but the killer mentality) is Kareem, Tim, Magic they are doing their job. Yes someone can belong to multiple family. ( Maybe I'm wrong for Kobe is quest was I wanna be like Mike and be better than Mike)
In Wilts defense, the man was over 7'1 barefoot, so he'd be listed at 7'3 in shoes. Elite athlete. Elite strength. Elite wingspan. If he was born in the 70s-80s, he'd be a beast back to the basket traditional Center with some faceup finesse and touch. That turnaround dipper lay in from reverse with that length? He can get it off on any triple team. He also had a mid range game that would translate very well with the 90s era modern training. He'd be a much more offensively dominant David Robinson imo. If he was born in the 2ks, he'd be wanting to shoot and handle the ball b/c that's what all bigs want now, and this era lets them. Even Shaq wanted to play like Magic, but he was forced to be a traditional Center bc of the times. So in todays league with the 3 and handles, i could see him getting 40 a night at his peak given that he trains his perimeter game up along with his selfish desire for stats. Dude in todays league, he'd be getting 35 a night as a much bigger and much more polished Giannis if you just dropped him in and trained his handles only. You could probably train him to hit the 3 at a decent clip within a few summers.
No doubt Wilt would torch these spaghetti stick 7ft in todays nba. I reckon it was rather a comment about make it more difficult for the scorer or at least try to force the ball out of his hands like they do with players like Curry, KD, Luka, and so on so they don’t give you 40 or 50 a night. Sure there will be games like Kobe‘s 81 when nothing really matter or some of those Klay masterpieces. Back then it was single coverage every single possession till the end
That was a great video! I felt like I was watching a historical piece about legendary teams and players and of the true origins of the double team. Danger Productions may have to include this piece if he ever does an updated video of his MJ/Lebron GOAT analysis. Lol
Absolutely they were empty stats, just like LeBron. Thats why Wilt was never TRULY in the GOAT discussion. He was just a statistical anomaly. Jordan also used to get criticized for stats before he won rings. The media realized LeBron was done with championships, so they moved the goal posts to focus on stats to favor LeBron.
To be fair, the NBA changed/made several rules for Wilt NOT to dominate (Goaltending, 3 seconds, Stay behing the FT Line when shooting Foul Shots) and for Kareem (Couldn't dunk in high or college). How many rules did the NBA or College make to STOP Jordan from dominating??? I got time
@truthiscensored the Jordan Rules. MJ was so good, the only way to stop him was to beat the 💩 out of him, without any attempt to play basketball fairly.
I know collapsing defenses and triple teaming started with Jordan. He's even one of the first players I can remember being double teamed in the back court. But, double teaming in general? Wow!
If you think about the growth of any sport but especially basketball as the game evolved those players who were getting torched in the court later became coaches and began to implement their ideas for how to defend the best players.
Kareem was double teamed his hole . Wilt stopped him his rookie year. He blocked his shot 17 times in the conference finals. The next year Wilt said Kareem was the only player that he needed help with. He demanded a double for 20 years. Wilt was the greatest athlete ever.
Many comments have mentioned why it wasn't common. But one I haven't really seen (yet) is that ball movement and player movement was more common. If you took your eye off your man for a second they'd cut and interior passing was more common and better. That could be one of many reasons. I also grew up playing man to man with some zone, but it was usually frowned upon if you doubled. It was about pride, because nobody wanted to be cooked and nobody wanted to admit that their team was being cooked. So... handle your own.
On the Shaq point there is also one massive thing to note which is that the rule change in 1989 which gave the offensive player a lot more leeway to be physical was crucial for him. Yes he faced double teams, but, the reason you don't see Wilt man handling people like Shaq did was because if the offensive player initiated contact it was a called offensive foul every time before that.
Bird was double teamed regularly. Especially during clutch moments. There is actual video. Same with Kareem. But it's the same as always. These guys only watch highlight reels. Never the full games.
Whenever you get around to it, Clayton Crowley's GOAT case video for Wilt can showcase more insight on his perspective of the era, just like with the Bill Russell vid Wilt isn't my GOAT, but he's my personal favorite player, and he did have the LBJ stat-padding of the era. I recommend watching that video, but it's definitely eye-opening to see the transition of defense from the 60s & 70s, right into the shift that came when MJ, Bird, and Magic all appeared
I was skeptical of this. I found a 1984 article NY Times article talking about Bird being doubled teamed constantly. Not much before 1984 but there was a reference about Wilt being fed up with being double and triple teamed and hard fouled
It's funny that Mike doesn't hold any of the generic records like most points, championships, etc. But when you look deeper into stuff like this video or advanced metrics or whatever he's invariably number 1 or really close to number 1.
I remember when iverson first got in the playoffs and iverson went off in game 1. Game 2, iverson was double team the whole game. You can't let a person go off without giving him a different look.
Wilt doesnt have empty stats its like putting joker on worst team in league and everything is run through him it wasn't until wilt 5-6yr he got good teammates and he won a chip
Yeah, but putting up those monstrous numbers and not winning is kind of the definition of empty stats. Doesn't mean he stat padded, it just wasn't winning basketball. Until he made an effort to involve the team. Happened with Jordan too.
17:00 a reminder the 3 point line existed in the NBA just a touch past the merger, for the 79-80 season. The rules for 2 or 3 points existed before Jordan even stepped on a NCAA floor. But how to think about it in a “might as well get that 50% bonus, we were worried a bit too much about the long rebound runout” didn’t really sink in until the 2010s or so. Sometimes you’re so set in your ways you can’t think of new ones The book/movie Moneyball is like that. There’s an idea how you win, the whole league follows that idea, it really isn’t the best way to win and it took someone who just couldn’t win that way anyway to find a better way to win.
Rules did chanage around Jordan's era. He might be right there was no flagrant foul rules. I've not watched much tape from Wilts era but maybe that's why.
Brother. We’re in the middle of a heatwave, last night it was 45° which is roughly 120f. I had about 10 cold showers. Today it’s only 110f and we’re in the middle of a hurricane. Thanks for giving me something to enjoy. Peace man, have a good one, I always enjoy your content.
Jordan almost still has a triple double when he scored 18 against the Celtics he was 1 assist shy of a triple double 13:41 when they first doubled Jordan 😂
Holy sht, I'm barely 15 seconds into the video and I never knew my Warriors were the SF Warriors before they went to Oakland, let alone were known as the Golden State Warriors. Now I know. Great choice to fill that gap.
If the NFL goes the way of the modern NBA, every offensive play will just be 5 receivers on a go route with the new league rule of single coverage only, defense can’t actually touch the receivers and can only play the ball or it will be called as interference, 3 Hail Mary’s with either a touchdown or a punt. Scores will skyrocket, viewership will tank.
Its definitely more of a pass league vs the run league i grew up with. But it still looks and feels like football unlike the nba. I hope they don't go too far with the deep throws though cuz it'll get boring
they didn't have zone defense either for the first 54+ years of the NBA, so you technically couldn't double until the player had the ball. it would have been called for illegal defense. most players didn't dominate the ball from baseline to baseline like young MJ. then you got players like Harden and LeBallhog that would just dribble and hold the hell out of the ball while others just stood around watching and waiting...
There's highlights from Jordan's first game in the NBA where he gets double teamed a few times and the announcer even called it that so it kind of had to already be a thing. 🤷
I’m gonna say it. Wilts era isn’t what everyone says. Sure they were athletic and sure it was an era of big men and he was dominating but that doesn’t take away from the fact that whoever had the. Biggest guy had the better chance until you find a team with 3 or 4 good players. But they were fundamentally sound and every year fundamentals went out the window after Jordan. That era just had 11 teams. They say bill had 11 rings and they put him in the goat conversation. He couldn’t shoot at all besides underneath the goal and he still wasn’t good but he was a good defender. Bird and magic inspired Americans to watch basketball and Jordan inspired the world to not only watch but want to be like Mike. Nobody comes close to that man.
I think there is a lot of truth to what the guy is saying but I remember Kareem always getting double teamed in the 80s, usually from a strong side guard. I think the difference is that double teams only happened in the post prior to '86 Jordan and not on the perimeter. As for Wilt, he became a winner with a stacked 76ers team in 66-67 while scoring only 24 PPG in 46 minutes per game. Wilt's early career Warriors stats are totally empty. Those warriors teams usually had offenses ranked in the lower half of the league. So there was no reason to double team Wilt because his scoring was at the expense of his team.
@@Epicentr it's hard to say but I think his high volume of shots (even though efficient) stifled ball movement. He was definitely at his best when he focused on passing and defense with the 76ers.
I actually did lol. I have an older brother so i was watching the games before i understood anything and he had me hooping at 5 lol. Mainly dribbling and passing and rebounding at 5 but it was a start 😆
I have heard some things from people about Wilt that make me wonder how much of his career is fact and how much is myth. Like I heard from Chris Broussard the game where Wilt scored 100 points it was basically given to him, is it true IDK but we'll probably never know. My 2 cents is it was one of those things where the belief was "stay on your man" not really grasping wait that dguy can't make it in the Ocean, so just use his man to double the star.
The 100 point game i hear the opposing team did everything to prevent him from getting 100. Even fouling his teammates before he could get the ball just out of spite lol. Who knows the real truth
i rly advice to author of this channel read Wilt's autobiography book. amazing gem! he is Zeus and real superman. this book was also piblished in USSR.
Before I watch this. I love the thumbnail. I am a sonics fan and I can tell you that George Karl sonics teams we’re allergic to get a real center so we had to trap and we lived and died by the 3. Let me tell you those Sonics teams were lethal from deep and it’s funny how the league has changed
I’m sorry but the title is a bit misleading. The Celtics were the ones who invented double-team defense in order to stop Jordan. He was the cause, but he didnt create it, the Celtics did. And it worked!
It's the same with 3s. It's easy to say now, why didn't everyone in the 80s shoot 3s, they are worth more. It's not how the game was played. You didn't double in the 60s and 70s. You manned up and defended your guy.
5:47 The difference is that LBJ is playing with really good players and barely makes the playoffs. Name me one teammate of Wilt, before he joined the Lakers 🤣
Also there was no zone so with the 3 seconds rule and no zone you had to play your man or you got exposed for not being able to guard your man was how a lot of us got on the court because I wanted to hold the best player
Trap and Zone defense (which objective is to Double Team) were invented in the 1920's and 1930's. Let's stop changing narratives to make your favorite player the All Time GOAT. There are only GOAT of Eras, not all time. Rules changes, players didn't play each other nor play the same competition, therefore everything is speculation and bias opinions in the All Time GOAT argument
Great point. Bird seems a potential choice for being double teamed if not just for his ability but to shut his trash talking. But teams may have planned to double team Larry but due to his court awareness and disposal. This could have limited the number of times it was effectively executed.
(To put this out first: I don’t believe this next statement, it’s to argue about) could someone say that “well they hit up Jordan that way first because they thought they could shut Jordan down that way and they didn’t think they could shut down say, wilt, that way?
I think defense precede offense. They didn't create double team for Jordan. I'm under the impression that the celtics defense was about '' double team '' ( quick helping) dangerous player. The 1986 celtics were good in defense but as a team more than by individual standard. Their rotation on Jordan is too good to be something new, it's work, maybe for magic show time I don't know. I think it's coincidence, Jordan was too good in iso so he became automatic. But double team player is a risky tactic Bird, Jordan they know how to pass. The pistons choose violence, because double team was a double edge sword, so kill the ball in Jordan's hand was the best option. Hack the Shaq, same thing. Violence against Wilt would have been a bad tactic. Double team too because he's taller jump higher and can finger roll or shot the ball very well, for what I know Wilt didn't dribble the ball that much and he fade away often
All stats are EMPTY if it does not lead to a win. You play the game to win not for stats. Jordan's 63 against Boston was empty stats...they lost. The object is to WIN
Magic said that a 45-50 year old wilt shut down the showtime lakers in a pick up hame so idk. Wilt is wat the bible called a mighty man. He would ha e adhiusted i believe.
A double team is a double team...now yall changing the narrative for a double team talking about a "True Double Team"??? First Jordan fans want to ONLY count his NBA Finals years as if the other 9 years he LOST don't count. Now they changing the definition of a Double Team. C'mon now
They probably didn’t double wilt bc they knew even if he drops 50 he still going to lose if he’s the only one hot on his team and none else can buy a bucket no reason to double team it’s only one man but that’s just my opinion tho I truly don’t know
I don't agree with you, Wilt will still score a lot of points, cause the rules has changes, with the offensive foul that is way much easier in the 90's, 2000's, and the dribbling handling rules to man, you can use your pal the way that you want. Sorry I am not a fan of wilt but man not totally agree with the assestment of Wilt Maybe MJ was really the 1st to be double teamed, as bird also sometimes, but don't undervalue Wilt, Russel man!!!!
No No No No TELL THE TRUTH BRO. Wilt Chamberlain was LeBron James of his era. He had nothing positive to say about Shaq MJ Russell Kareem makes you think all these guys won more than him. We're evaluating players an Wilt Chamberlain is overrated, he was a freak of an athlete yes but under 500 in the finals like LeBron and Wilt also had alot of help as well. His problem was he disappeared in almost every big game. Did you know he won his only championship with Jerry West because Willis Reed MVP of the Knicks was injured? So that's like Jokic beating the Bucks without Giannis. See the difference? LeBron plays for accumulative stats Wilt did too they're the same type of guys they're both very overrated. Wilt Chamberlain regular season 30 PPG great. Playoffs 22 PPG that's a 8 PPG drop off no other all-time great has this gap of a drop-off like Wilt. Oh an the finals? 18 PPG. Wilt averages 18 PPG in 6 NBA finals series there's no excuse, when the competition got stiffer Wilt toned his play down. I don't get why more guys don't talk about this. Jerry West was out there trying to win, his playoff an finals numbers got higher just like MJ. Wilt drop-off isn't even talked about. This is nothing personal against Wilt so idk why you didn't want to admit it Bro Yes it's a fact Wilt Chamberlain is highly overrated.
You started hooping in '87? What were you like 4!? That doesn't count. You talk about the 80's all the time like you were there. I'm a few years older and I can barely remember watching basketball in the 80's and I was no expert at 9 or 10. Anyway, I am a fan of the channel and usually agree with you , especially about LeBron, but I just had to say something.
No listen to the way they cover the greats there was no true scoutin report 60 70 even early 80 guard your man they will double before they got the ball dominant post player.guard wings get there spot before they did.❤but in college they zone
First and foremost, Wilt still the NBA scoring machine. At one point he averaged 50 points a game through the whole season. Jordan is being called a scoring machine only based on his fan's promotion. Jordan played in the era where zone defense wasn't allowed. Jordan said it himself "I wouldn't have had my career with zone defense". 90's NBA illegal defense rule was so benefitting Jordan's playing style. Isolated players and given him one on one to drive to the hoop and score. While playing for the Wizards he faced the zone defense, and the world saw how that went down. Averaged 22 points while putting up 22 shots, per game, with FG percentage of 41%. Never learned how to shoot 3's. In today's league he will definitely be a bench warmer. So, stop that narrative about him putting up 50 points per game in today's league. Maybe put up 50 shots just to score 30!.
We're still finding out how great this man was, 25 years later??
GOAT 🐐
I know. Its crazy lol
MJ's career is really the freakiest soon as you tried going deeper into the details. No wonder why he is recognized as the best to lace up for the game of basketball. Great vid. Loved it.
I feel the same way. The longer i do this channel the deeper the rabbit hole goes of MJs greatness
not just greatest to lace up for basketball but all sports ever.
Awesome video I never realized that the actual phrase double team started in the eighties
Same here! I'm still kinda shocked about it.
I have no problem when someone says that Wilt would average 50 now. The lane is completely open in today’s game and defense is lackluster at best. Wilt wouldn’t have got that in the 80’s, 90’s or 2000’s but with the weak defense that is played now and there being so much focus on offense only, I have no problem with that assertion.
@@christyler6234 He’ll get so many rebounds offensive or defensive, they barely block out and players now are so soft.
Agree 100% but the thing is Wilt Chamberlain probably wouldn't be playing in today's game if he couldn't shoot a 3 pointer! Todays game sucks no inside game at all with big men like wemby and jokic trolling the 3 point line i mean i miss the day when 7 footers clogged the lane and guarded the basket blocked shots and actually did 7 footer things!!
Wilt was still being recruited in the 1980's when he was in his 50's. And he shut down arguably the best player in the 80's Magic Johnson in pick up games, Johnson couldn't get a shot off...How much more would he dominate the 1980's in his prime.
I wanna see prime Shaq at this era. 😅
@@joeysweet9045Wilt actually WAS the inventor of the fadeaway jumper from bigs. He was accurate with his "fall-away" (WC's name for his fade...) out beyond 20 feet.
He was regularly TRIPLE TEAMED, even AWAY from the ball. Double teams were used for a LONG time before MJ. For instance, WC was only single-covered by the very best defenders, like B. Russell (often called best defender EVER), Nate Thurmond (ONE of the very best defensive big men), etc.
In all fairness, Jordan got triple teamed, and he still split them, got to the basket and scored anyway. If Wilt was in this crap era, I think he'd do well. He wasn't playing the type of talent there is today, though. I would've loved to see him, in his prime battling guys like Joker or Wemby. Especially Wemby. That post game would be a blast to watch .
What talent
This video blows me away I thought true double team existed way before Jordan but it makes sense I learn a ton from your videos keep it going
Thanks man! We're learning together sometimes lol
It (Double team) did exist before Jordan. The video just pulled random clips of single coverage and made a narrative.
Jordan got single coverage Defense too. Every play wasn't a double team for Jordan same way every play wasn't single coverage Defense for earlier players.
Editing does wonders, and will have you believing something not true
Wow this is so amazing MJ is not human ever since I started watching your channel i hqve learn so many things i never know about MJ
Nice! I knew a lot but I've also learned a ton about him too.
@@TheRealMindCrime you are doing an amazing job bro, keep it up
I've been playing ball since the 90s. In NYC.
The sentiment was double teaming was a sign of weakness.
There was help. But you didn't full on double.
Till Jordan. Even in college. I didn't see much double team. True double.
5:45 I kinda agree also although I know a lot of people will disagree. I don't think Wilt had a ton of impact on winning with his teams, when he won his first championship, he was the 5th leading scorer on his own team.
It was definitely empty stats. Perhaps the most dominant force on a court ever, but he didn't win.... 🤷
Kind of the definition of empty stats.
But those stats though... 😅
@@hakancarlsson2881 Agreed. Crazy stats, but not much impact.
Thats what my gut says while looking at evidence and also knowing what a ego Wilt had. It pisses people off when i say it but i think it might be true
Am in total shock over this video, just same like the more you probe into MJ's legacy the more you are left with your mouth wide open😮 However what this dude said was all facts. Back in the day players took pride in guarding their man one v one, that pride comes from putting in the work, you had to be in top shape, in strength and defensive conditioning, which means hours upon hours of practice. This was why 1v1 basketball was held as the "Gold Standard" of defining who was the better player. You were looked down as weak, if you weren't able to keep up with your man.😎👍🥂.
Where you paused it on Jordan's free-throw. Notice he was by himself there.
He got fouled as time expired bulls down 2 pts.
Nailed both free throws to go to overtime. Thats pressure
Yeah it is. MJ always been clutch like that
Not just that, it was a three pointer that he was fouled on but in those rules, you still only got two free throws. If he got three shots like he would today, they could have won that game and the next game looks different. he could have won the championship before they figured out the double team. They are on the list of greatest teams in NBA history and he was a rule change away from beating them by himself.
Regarding the question about double-teaming, I made a breef research and the answer might lie in how strictly referees enforced the rules back then.
They could double team from the beginning but they dind't as much as they started to do with MJ, but maybe even the slightest hint of a zone defense could have been called as a violation.
Offensive strategies may have been designed to exploit this, forcing defenses to rely primarily on one-on-one matchups.
Over time, double-teaming became more common, but even then, violations were sometimes called if the second defender wasn’t fully committed to the double team.
Perhaps in the 1960s, referees called these violations even more strictly, discouraging teams from taking the risk of employing such defensive strategies.
This is all speculative of course and would require a closer look at historical officiating trends for confirmation and I don't have the means to do this research but it's a very interesting historical thing to research!
"slightest hint of a zone defense could have been called as a violation. " Beat me to it, Alex.. Was gonna say maybe refs would think it some type of zone.. Great minds!!
Thanks Alex!
This is new, I've never heard this argument explained like this!
At this point only one question comes to my mind: how much better would have been MJ if they tried to stop him only with single coverage during his career?
Lol single coverage on MJ? Bloodbath lol
Shouldn't be too shocking. GOAT. Not just double but sometimes triple and quad teamed.
I've said for years that LeBron is the modern day wilt chamberlain. Someone with such gaudy stats you wonder why they didn't win more.
But when you look at wilt, the years he won were when he focused on rebounding and defense and significantly curtailed his scoring.
The years LeBron won he had a decisive talent advantage on his team, and in two of them needed a great shooter to bail him out. Ray Allen in 2013 and Kyrie Irving in 2016, miracle shots to secure a win.
The rest of his career? Empty stats that don't lead to winning. And that's my knock on wilt
Great video 📹 💯 I also am shocked! That's awesome MJ23 was!
I didn't know Wilt was using the glass that well. Nice touch like Tim Duncan.
I noticed the glass is something that was used more back in the day. As the game evolved for some reason most players use the glass less and less
@@TheRealMindCrime right
Wow..watching 60s-70s then mj 80s back to back. the contrast in double team defense is hard to deny.
I mean even the bucks did it to Jordan before the Celtics in his rookie season but idk pre jordan
I feel like you're right. He had to be doubled his first 2 seasons
@@TheRealMindCrime I think I can help with wilt was it empty stats.
A quote from bill Russell on how he beat or guard Wilt.
He said something like
I knew that Wilt will go for 40 or more and I could not stop him, so I was just trying to slow him down.
At the end at the game wilt will be happy to have score 40 and I will be happy because we would have won the game.
I don't remember the exact quote, but Bill was saying that he was pushing Wilt to eat possesions because each time he will try to score so his team will lose like that.
BUT I don't think that what you call empty stats, the NBA was young and Wilt was just playing his game and have fun.
Thinking doing his best was enough.
Bill was smart and absolutly hate to lose for what I know. Same family than Mike, Kobe, Larry
Wilt is in the same family than Shaq or Bron they can be happy with some side quest, Shaq could have been the goat but he is happy with the more dominant player ever.
The last '' family'' ( everybody hate too lose but the killer mentality) is Kareem, Tim, Magic they are doing their job.
Yes someone can belong to multiple family.
( Maybe I'm wrong for Kobe is quest was I wanna be like Mike and be better than Mike)
In Wilts defense, the man was over 7'1 barefoot, so he'd be listed at 7'3 in shoes. Elite athlete. Elite strength. Elite wingspan. If he was born in the 70s-80s, he'd be a beast back to the basket traditional Center with some faceup finesse and touch. That turnaround dipper lay in from reverse with that length? He can get it off on any triple team. He also had a mid range game that would translate very well with the 90s era modern training. He'd be a much more offensively dominant David Robinson imo.
If he was born in the 2ks, he'd be wanting to shoot and handle the ball b/c that's what all bigs want now, and this era lets them. Even Shaq wanted to play like Magic, but he was forced to be a traditional Center bc of the times. So in todays league with the 3 and handles, i could see him getting 40 a night at his peak given that he trains his perimeter game up along with his selfish desire for stats. Dude in todays league, he'd be getting 35 a night as a much bigger and much more polished Giannis if you just dropped him in and trained his handles only. You could probably train him to hit the 3 at a decent clip within a few summers.
No doubt Wilt would torch these spaghetti stick 7ft in todays nba. I reckon it was rather a comment about make it more difficult for the scorer or at least try to force the ball out of his hands like they do with players like Curry, KD, Luka, and so on so they don’t give you 40 or 50 a night. Sure there will be games like Kobe‘s 81 when nothing really matter or some of those Klay masterpieces. Back then it was single coverage every single possession till the end
That was a great video! I felt like I was watching a historical piece about legendary teams and players and of the true origins of the double team.
Danger Productions may have to include this piece if he ever does an updated video of his MJ/Lebron GOAT analysis. Lol
It was called illegal defense u couldn't leave your man for more than 3 seconds ur welcome
Absolutely they were empty stats, just like LeBron. Thats why Wilt was never TRULY in the GOAT discussion. He was just a statistical anomaly. Jordan also used to get criticized for stats before he won rings. The media realized LeBron was done with championships, so they moved the goal posts to focus on stats to favor LeBron.
Yeah i remember. Until MJ won rings he was ridiculed for scoring so much. Then they shut up lol
To be fair, the NBA changed/made several rules for Wilt NOT to dominate (Goaltending, 3 seconds, Stay behing the FT Line when shooting Foul Shots) and for Kareem (Couldn't dunk in high or college).
How many rules did the NBA or College make to STOP Jordan from dominating??? I got time
Wilt’s stats are still insanely impressive, empty or not. He certainly has always been considered by many to be the greatest ever
@truthiscensored the Jordan Rules. MJ was so good, the only way to stop him was to beat the 💩 out of him, without any attempt to play basketball fairly.
I know collapsing defenses and triple teaming started with Jordan. He's even one of the first players I can remember being double teamed in the back court. But, double teaming in general? Wow!
If you think about the growth of any sport but especially basketball as the game evolved those players who were getting torched in the court later became coaches and began to implement their ideas for how to defend the best players.
Surely there has to be an earlier game. I can't imagine Larry torching a team and no double was ever sent..
I have that same feeling too
I am trying to recall the Bird 60game against the Hawks, I dont remember it happening, I might have to go through that entire game.
This guy only mentions highlights. Not full games. Bird was double teamed. If you go by highlights like this video. There are plenty.
Remember John Salley saying Larry asking him if he was guarding him and if the pistons were doubling.
Larry - mouse in the house
@@MJIZZEL John Salley didn't get drafted until the summer after this season, so this particular point in the discussion has no bearing.
Kareem was double teamed his hole . Wilt stopped him his rookie year. He blocked his shot 17 times in the conference finals. The next year Wilt said Kareem was the only player that he needed help with. He demanded a double for 20 years. Wilt was the greatest athlete ever.
Many comments have mentioned why it wasn't common. But one I haven't really seen (yet) is that ball movement and player movement was more common. If you took your eye off your man for a second they'd cut and interior passing was more common and better. That could be one of many reasons.
I also grew up playing man to man with some zone, but it was usually frowned upon if you doubled. It was about pride, because nobody wanted to be cooked and nobody wanted to admit that their team was being cooked. So... handle your own.
Say it again, everyone heard “stay with your man”
On the Shaq point there is also one massive thing to note which is that the rule change in 1989 which gave the offensive player a lot more leeway to be physical was crucial for him. Yes he faced double teams, but, the reason you don't see Wilt man handling people like Shaq did was because if the offensive player initiated contact it was a called offensive foul every time before that.
Bird was double teamed regularly. Especially during clutch moments. There is actual video. Same with Kareem. But it's the same as always. These guys only watch highlight reels. Never the full games.
Impressive, both Dave Corzine and John Paxson out scored MJ, perhaps due to his assist?
In that one game? For sure. He had to figure out to pass off the double on the fly so people had wide open shots
Is it fair to say ..yes!!! Jordan invented the triple team.as well.-- I witnessed it on multiple occasions.
Lol me too
Whenever you get around to it, Clayton Crowley's GOAT case video for Wilt can showcase more insight on his perspective of the era, just like with the Bill Russell vid
Wilt isn't my GOAT, but he's my personal favorite player, and he did have the LBJ stat-padding of the era. I recommend watching that video, but it's definitely eye-opening to see the transition of defense from the 60s & 70s, right into the shift that came when MJ, Bird, and Magic all appeared
I was skeptical of this. I found a 1984 article NY Times article talking about Bird being doubled teamed constantly. Not much before 1984 but there was a reference about Wilt being fed up with being double and triple teamed and hard fouled
It's funny that Mike doesn't hold any of the generic records like most points, championships, etc. But when you look deeper into stuff like this video or advanced metrics or whatever he's invariably number 1 or really close to number 1.
Exactly. His greatness is still being discovered just how deep the rabbit hole goes.
@@jimmybrooks2000 you're dead on. He's not #1 in many categories, but he's top 5 in almost everything. That is an insane level of elite.
I remember when iverson first got in the playoffs and iverson went off in game 1. Game 2, iverson was double team the whole game. You can't let a person go off without giving him a different look.
Yup. That was in the 90s though
@@TheRealMindCrimeI think he meant the 2000 Finals against the LAL
Wilt doesnt have empty stats its like putting joker on worst team in league and everything is run through him it wasn't until wilt 5-6yr he got good teammates and he won a chip
Fair enough
Yeah, but putting up those monstrous numbers and not winning is kind of the definition of empty stats.
Doesn't mean he stat padded, it just wasn't winning basketball.
Until he made an effort to involve the team.
Happened with Jordan too.
Charles Barkley said it as well that in his opinion (compared to the rest of the team) he was a better player on 76rs than on Suns.
17:00 a reminder the 3 point line existed in the NBA just a touch past the merger, for the 79-80 season. The rules for 2 or 3 points existed before Jordan even stepped on a NCAA floor. But how to think about it in a “might as well get that 50% bonus, we were worried a bit too much about the long rebound runout” didn’t really sink in until the 2010s or so. Sometimes you’re so set in your ways you can’t think of new ones
The book/movie Moneyball is like that. There’s an idea how you win, the whole league follows that idea, it really isn’t the best way to win and it took someone who just couldn’t win that way anyway to find a better way to win.
I don't think NCAA had a 3 point line when he was there though.
@ nope. They had it wayyyyy after the nba did. I was just using MJs college time just to say how old the line in the NBA is.
@@biffbobfred 👍
Interesting. Thanks biff
Wilt won a championship with Hal Greer and Billy Cunningham while not leading the team in scoring, Hal did. He won before teaming up with Jerry
Wilt’s fadeaway looks so OP
It was lol
I think there was double team back then, but not zone. If it was a double team, it has to be a hard double team or it will be considered as zone
I didn't know the double team was invented for Jordan
If you hear Wilt tell it, the defense was tougher when he played.
Lol. I don't agree with Wilt here
Rules did chanage around Jordan's era. He might be right there was no flagrant foul rules. I've not watched much tape from Wilts era but maybe that's why.
Brother. We’re in the middle of a heatwave, last night it was 45° which is roughly 120f. I had about 10 cold showers. Today it’s only 110f and we’re in the middle of a hurricane. Thanks for giving me something to enjoy. Peace man, have a good one, I always enjoy your content.
Jordan almost still has a triple double when he scored 18 against the Celtics he was 1 assist shy of a triple double 13:41 when they first doubled Jordan 😂
Yup 😆
The game has been evolving over these decades, the game is still in his early stage of development, during Wilt Chamberlain years.
I remember in my high school basketball summer league it would be a violation if you double teamed
Interesting....
Holy sht, I'm barely 15 seconds into the video and I never knew my Warriors were the SF Warriors before they went to Oakland, let alone were known as the Golden State Warriors. Now I know. Great choice to fill that gap.
How many highlights have we seen of Jordan dunking with multiple dudes hanging on to him. Maybe he invented the quadruple team.
Lol. He definitely invented the whole team trapping him in the paint
MJ is the only player I've seen that 4 players and sometimes the whole team tries to stop him as he flies to the basket.
Wilt was definitely a stat packer, no question.
Grand rising bro hope you are having a great day as well, let the show begin
Good morning friend! ☕️
The more you dig into his numbers and the context of michael jordan, the more of a fucking monster he becomes. 😂😂😂😂
If the NFL goes the way of the modern NBA, every offensive play will just be 5 receivers on a go route with the new league rule of single coverage only, defense can’t actually touch the receivers and can only play the ball or it will be called as interference, 3 Hail Mary’s with either a touchdown or a punt. Scores will skyrocket, viewership will tank.
Its definitely more of a pass league vs the run league i grew up with. But it still looks and feels like football unlike the nba. I hope they don't go too far with the deep throws though cuz it'll get boring
(Ryan Davis) Kevin Durant Getting Roasted 5:20mins, Please reaction to this is hilarious
Oh man this is sooo brutally true!
Wilt definitely stuffed empty stats like Lebron.
they didn't have zone defense either for the first 54+ years of the NBA, so you technically couldn't double until the player had the ball. it would have been called for illegal defense. most players didn't dominate the ball from baseline to baseline like young MJ. then you got players like Harden and LeBallhog that would just dribble and hold the hell out of the ball while others just stood around watching and waiting...
I always assumed double teams existed but I haven’t watched many games pre 1980 I must confess
Same here. I started watching in the 80s..
There's highlights from Jordan's first game in the NBA where he gets double teamed a few times and the announcer even called it that so it kind of had to already be a thing. 🤷
I’m gonna say it. Wilts era isn’t what everyone says. Sure they were athletic and sure it was an era of big men and he was dominating but that doesn’t take away from the fact that whoever had the. Biggest guy had the better chance until you find a team with 3 or 4 good players. But they were fundamentally sound and every year fundamentals went out the window after Jordan. That era just had 11 teams. They say bill had 11 rings and they put him in the goat conversation. He couldn’t shoot at all besides underneath the goal and he still wasn’t good but he was a good defender. Bird and magic inspired Americans to watch basketball and Jordan inspired the world to not only watch but want to be like Mike. Nobody comes close to that man.
Funny how MJ and LeBum took double teams differently. MJ passed out of them. LeBum took the double team like Jenna Jameson ( at a Diddy party )😂😂😂😂
I think there is a lot of truth to what the guy is saying but I remember Kareem always getting double teamed in the 80s, usually from a strong side guard. I think the difference is that double teams only happened in the post prior to '86 Jordan and not on the perimeter.
As for Wilt, he became a winner with a stacked 76ers team in 66-67 while scoring only 24 PPG in 46 minutes per game. Wilt's early career Warriors stats are totally empty. Those warriors teams usually had offenses ranked in the lower half of the league. So there was no reason to double team Wilt because his scoring was at the expense of his team.
Are you saying his stats sand-bagged everyone else or that he was the only offense they had?
@@Epicentr it's hard to say but I think his high volume of shots (even though efficient) stifled ball movement. He was definitely at his best when he focused on passing and defense with the 76ers.
Ain't no way you started hooping at 5 years old lol. Anyways I can't believe that the double team started wit Jordan
Did you watch the video?
I actually did lol. I have an older brother so i was watching the games before i understood anything and he had me hooping at 5 lol. Mainly dribbling and passing and rebounding at 5 but it was a start 😆
Wilt said there was zone coverage then, not man to man.
you are all wrong lbj invented the double team.... quitting on one and joining on the other
😆 🤣 😂 thats a double cross
It's all 1 on 1 now
I have heard some things from people about Wilt that make me wonder how much of his career is fact and how much is myth. Like I heard from Chris Broussard the game where Wilt scored 100 points it was basically given to him, is it true IDK but we'll probably never know. My 2 cents is it was one of those things where the belief was "stay on your man" not really grasping wait that dguy can't make it in the Ocean, so just use his man to double the star.
The 100 point game i hear the opposing team did everything to prevent him from getting 100. Even fouling his teammates before he could get the ball just out of spite lol. Who knows the real truth
Lebalco gets double team, he be crying to the officials and be making under 20 points per game lol. Thanks Mike, and he still made 50 plus pkg lol
😆 🤣 😂
i rly advice to author of this channel read Wilt's autobiography book. amazing gem! he is Zeus and real superman. this book was also piblished in USSR.
Before I watch this. I love the thumbnail. I am a sonics fan and I can tell you that George Karl sonics teams we’re allergic to get a real center so we had to trap and we lived and died by the 3. Let me tell you those Sonics teams were lethal from deep and it’s funny how the league has changed
Heck. If not for MJ that sonics team would have a ring. They were soooo good
I’m sorry but the title is a bit misleading. The Celtics were the ones who invented double-team defense in order to stop Jordan. He was the cause, but he didnt create it, the Celtics did. And it worked!
It's the same with 3s. It's easy to say now, why didn't everyone in the 80s shoot 3s, they are worth more. It's not how the game was played. You didn't double in the 60s and 70s. You manned up and defended your guy.
No I don't think they were empty stats. He was the only good player on that team I think. He was trying to actually win the game.
5:47 The difference is that LBJ is playing with really good players and barely makes the playoffs. Name me one teammate of Wilt, before he joined the Lakers 🤣
I thought I saw double teams on MJ first game? Maybe I’m mis remembering!!
I think so too
Also there was no zone so with the 3 seconds rule and no zone you had to play your man or you got exposed for not being able to guard your man was how a lot of us got on the court because I wanted to hold the best player
More like triple team sometimes the whole team and they still could not stop him ...
Trap and Zone defense (which objective is to Double Team) were invented in the 1920's and 1930's. Let's stop changing narratives to make your favorite player the All Time GOAT.
There are only GOAT of Eras, not all time. Rules changes, players didn't play each other nor play the same competition, therefore everything is speculation and bias opinions in the All Time GOAT argument
Double team has been around forever.. may not have been used as much early on, but nonetheless was a thing.
Michael Jordan invented… the DOUBLE TEAM?! I don't even think so. Double team started in 1978 college championship. Larry vs Erving.
Interesting. Was it zone or double team?
@@TheRealMindCrime Erving comment was “We always put two bodies on Bird”. I don’t know. I could be wrong ☹️
Great point. Bird seems a potential choice for being double teamed if not just for his ability but to shut his trash talking.
But teams may have planned to double team Larry but due to his court awareness and disposal. This could have limited the number of times it was effectively executed.
(To put this out first: I don’t believe this next statement, it’s to argue about) could someone say that “well they hit up Jordan that way first because they thought they could shut Jordan down that way and they didn’t think they could shut down say, wilt, that way?
Maybe yeah
mj fouled out in game 3 ?? wow thats rare
Yeah that is. He was probably trying too hard to win lol
@TheRealMindCrime danny ainge admitted that after the 63 point game they decided to double him every time he touched the ball.
I think defense precede offense.
They didn't create double team for Jordan.
I'm under the impression that the celtics defense was about '' double team '' ( quick helping) dangerous player.
The 1986 celtics were good in defense but as a team more than by individual standard.
Their rotation on Jordan is too good to be something new, it's work, maybe for magic show time I don't know.
I think it's coincidence, Jordan was too good in iso so he became automatic.
But double team player is a risky tactic Bird, Jordan they know how to pass.
The pistons choose violence, because double team was a double edge sword, so kill the ball in Jordan's hand was the best option.
Hack the Shaq, same thing.
Violence against Wilt would have been a bad tactic. Double team too because he's taller jump higher and can finger roll or shot the ball very well, for what I know Wilt didn't dribble the ball that much and he fade away often
LeBron James is a modern day wilt, he's really a 4 or a 5 you can put shaq in there to
Ok, so you are not including help defense. You mean actual 2 men straight up covering 1.
All stats are EMPTY if it does not lead to a win.
You play the game to win not for stats.
Jordan's 63 against Boston was empty stats...they lost. The object is to WIN
Magic said that a 45-50 year old wilt shut down the showtime lakers in a pick up hame so idk. Wilt is wat the bible called a mighty man. He would ha e adhiusted i believe.
A double team is a double team...now yall changing the narrative for a double team talking about a "True Double Team"???
First Jordan fans want to ONLY count his NBA Finals years as if the other 9 years he LOST don't count. Now they changing the definition of a Double Team. C'mon now
Mr mind crime im going to need you to research the wilt chamberlain 1967.
Ok. Deal 👍
They probably didn’t double wilt bc they knew even if he drops 50 he still going to lose if he’s the only one hot on his team and none else can buy a bucket no reason to double team it’s only one man but that’s just my opinion tho I truly don’t know
That crazy so that mean the G.O.A.T would Average about 65 points per game back in those time wow wow 😮😮😮😮
Zoomer takes for the win
I don't agree with you, Wilt will still score a lot of points, cause the rules has changes, with the offensive foul that is way much easier in the 90's, 2000's, and the dribbling handling rules to man, you can use your pal the way that you want.
Sorry I am not a fan of wilt but man not totally agree with the assestment of Wilt
Maybe MJ was really the 1st to be double teamed, as bird also sometimes, but don't undervalue Wilt, Russel man!!!!
No No No No TELL THE TRUTH BRO. Wilt Chamberlain was LeBron James of his era. He had nothing positive to say about Shaq MJ Russell Kareem makes you think all these guys won more than him. We're evaluating players an Wilt Chamberlain is overrated, he was a freak of an athlete yes but under 500 in the finals like LeBron and Wilt also had alot of help as well. His problem was he disappeared in almost every big game. Did you know he won his only championship with Jerry West because Willis Reed MVP of the Knicks was injured? So that's like Jokic beating the Bucks without Giannis. See the difference? LeBron plays for accumulative stats Wilt did too they're the same type of guys they're both very overrated. Wilt Chamberlain regular season 30 PPG great. Playoffs 22 PPG that's a 8 PPG drop off no other all-time great has this gap of a drop-off like Wilt. Oh an the finals? 18 PPG. Wilt averages 18 PPG in 6 NBA finals series there's no excuse, when the competition got stiffer Wilt toned his play down. I don't get why more guys don't talk about this. Jerry West was out there trying to win, his playoff an finals numbers got higher just like MJ. Wilt drop-off isn't even talked about. This is nothing personal against Wilt so idk why you didn't want to admit it Bro Yes it's a fact Wilt Chamberlain is highly overrated.
You started hooping in '87? What were you like 4!? That doesn't count. You talk about the 80's all the time like you were there. I'm a few years older and I can barely remember watching basketball in the 80's and I was no expert at 9 or 10.
Anyway, I am a fan of the channel and usually agree with you , especially about LeBron, but I just had to say something.
Yes it was illegal in the 60s for two men to guard one man you don't know much about basketball do you or at least the history of it
th-cam.com/video/xwx98Wtrln4/w-d-xo.html
hahahahahaha
😆 🤣 😂 he getting wrecked
No listen to the way they cover the greats there was no true scoutin report 60 70 even early 80 guard your man they will double before they got the ball dominant post player.guard wings get there spot before they did.❤but in college they zone
First and foremost, Wilt still the NBA scoring machine. At one point he averaged 50 points a game through the whole season.
Jordan is being called a scoring machine only based on his fan's promotion. Jordan played in the era where zone defense wasn't allowed. Jordan said it himself "I wouldn't have had my career with zone defense". 90's NBA illegal defense rule was so benefitting Jordan's playing style. Isolated players and given him one on one to drive to the hoop and score. While playing for the Wizards he faced the zone defense, and the world saw how that went down. Averaged 22 points while putting up 22 shots, per game, with FG percentage of 41%. Never learned how to shoot 3's. In today's league he will definitely be a bench warmer. So, stop that narrative about him putting up 50 points per game in today's league. Maybe put up 50 shots just to score 30!.
My Blazers doubled Bird Magic and Dr J before MJ was in the nba
I thought so too. So wtf was this video? Weird.