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The Madness of Feminine Perfection | Explored Through Black Swan
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ธ.ค. 2023
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Hey what movies were you using clips from? Specifically that one were a lady was dressed as the Madonna in a parade?
@@EchosinfireifyThat’s Malena with Monica Bellucci.
@@tommypurple5069 thank you so much!
I wish i could subscribe to your substack but im poor 😅
The topic is also about the circle of narcissistic abuse by a partner but also the abusive mother who makes her daughter a codependent for life and always looking for outside validation and a perfection that's impossible to achieve.
Just a quick note, Odette and Odile are almost ALWAYS performed by the same ballerina in professional ballet companies
I stg I looked this up because I was under the assumption that they were as well and it said that they’re mostly played by different dancers but it seems like ur right, so I must’ve misread, thank you for correcting! Why does Thomas act like he’s doing something different and revolutionary by casting the same girl to dance both roles?
Black Swan banks on the audience not being too familiar with ballet lol. The writers probably wanted a bit more drama for the casting process rather than “we are casting swan lake as we normally do”.
Now that I think about it, there are 2, 3, 4, or more casts of ballets at bigger companies with popular ballets like Swan lake. So multiple dancers get to be Odette/Odile. There wouldn’t be much of a movie if both Natalie and Mila got the role lol
i dont think his lines there -- "...but not like this. We strip it down, make it raw... and real." -- are in reference to the casting. in context it sounds more like he's talking about choreography, sets, etc. @@FinalGirlStudios
@@FinalGirlStudios I have no idea, and it's one of the several problems I had with this movie. In fact, the "revolutionary" move would have been splitting the role; and then exploring the relationship between Lily and Nina would have taken on something different and arguably just as interesting.
@@melenatorrthe revolution he's talking about is making the ballet as realistic as possible compared to the "original". In many choreographies the white swan ends with her prince, as the original ending is too strong. the conflict is mostly with Nina being so controlled and Infantilized by her mother and herself that she bever developed as a woman, being very childish, even in her voice and movements, except in ballet. Only towards the end she realizes that her womanhood (Kunis) was a fighment of her imagination she was trying to keep in chains.
When I rewatched this, I think Lily was trying to become genuine friends with Nina
She stood up to the dance teacher when she saw Nina visibly upset by him
Calling him a prick to make him seem less scary
Even though Lily wasn’t in the wrong, she still apologized to Nina because she saw how hurt she was
When Nina tells Lily about her hallucination. Lily laughs it off and says “was I good?” in a teasing friendly way
When Lily tells a Nina she’s going to be her alternate, she almost sounds remorseful and she quickly adds “just in case” because she’s seen how obsessed Nina was with this role
She congratulates Nina after the black swan dance
And was the first person to notice that Nina was bleeding
But unfortunately, in Nina’s mind, and in the dance world, there are no friends, only competition
Also, with her obsession with ballet, and controlling mother, I don’t even think Nina had friends, which just makes it sadder
This! I’m so sad to see many people hating on lily when I always thought lily was just some normal chic trying to be friends with the weird girl, the girl who took herself far too seriously, lily was trying to get nina to come out of her shell, her box, and lily was put into the backup spot and didn’t complain about it but was supportive to Nina on several levels.
@@HeatherHolt and I also found out that Mila and Natalie are good friends irl so that just makes it even better
I mean, she did spike her drink, that doesn't seem very friendly to me
@@braingirl9112 yeah that’s a bit out of line but I don’t think she meant any malice intent
Sometimes party girls don’t have the best morals
Oh good eye
ballerina’s feet are blistered, bruised, and bloody as time goes on, yet they are contained in a pink, dainty shoe. i feel that is so symbolic of femininity!! to be female is to perform
Wow yes 👏
Wow “to be female is to perform”.. yes 👏
I believe Natalie Portman or someone said she didn't necessarily die.
This film was sort of alluding to Nina's puberty.
So it could be a metaphorical death. But then she'll be reborn as a woman.
All of this to say the ending may have been intended as ambiguous.
She may have been taken to the hospital and saved.
Her wound honestly looks like a period.
Plenty of symbolism there.
Agree. She just killed her own innocence
I hope this is true. She deserves a chance to live her own life and flip her mom the bird. I hope she and Lily became friends.
@@UltimateDorito Yes, I hope so.
In my mind Nina survived and was taken care of at the hospital, but her career as a ballerina was stunted because of her incident and got the psychological help she needs before returning to work.
The wound looking like a period blotch you’d find in your underwear makes so much sense I didn’t even realize it!!! Also her mood swings and even her hallucinations could be an allusion to PMSing, I know I have believed malicious intent where there was none (like Nina with Lily). There’s also heightened libido which could explain her protectiveness and jealousy when it comes to Thomas.
I don’t think this is the end all be all but I think it adds to this interpretation of her childhood (and by extension, innocence) dying with puberty
tw: ED
As someone who grew up in ballet during the h*roine chic era of the 90s/00s while being curvy no matter what I did, and this film coming out at a time where Nina would’ve grown up in that as well, I’ve always thought the ED undertones also contributed to her hallucinations in combination with the extreme stress as those can be symptoms in severe cases. Additionally, given how intensely she works out and lack of proper nutrition, I’ve always wondered if maybe she never/rarely menstruated, allowing her to more easily remain in that adolescent mindset her mother forces on her. It does make the usage of blood and red in the film very interesting in that it tends to appear when she interacts with symbols of womanhood, whereas pinks are used for girlhood (also interesting that the towels she uses to hide “Lily’s blood” is pink, sort of symbolizing trying to cover up her womanhood with girlish things).
nice note! make much sense
I grew up in that era too but it never really affected me and I always wanted to be curvy. Maybe it was mainly an American thing. I'd never even heard the term until now
I believe that’s also in gymnastics and ice skating as well, where they’re expected to be fit but thin (usually by unhealthy means as it’s expected fast and not in a more natural manner) thus the body doesn’t process that it’s of age to bear children and so the fertility cycle doesn’t happen until later. I’d actually forgotten that until this comment, and yes that makes sense.
This comment blev my mind bc I was thinking the exact same thing but didn't have the words for it
That’s exactly what the director was trying to symbolize at the end. Natalie was worried about the wound position, thinking that people would think that it’s a period stain. The director did it on purpose to symbolize Nina becoming a woman.
I don't think Lily wss malicious.
When I watched the film years ago, I interpreted her character as being a woman, just living her best life, which is why Nina dislikes her so much.
Because she's free and apparently doesn't give a sh¡t about what others think of her. I seem to recall she wasn't caught up in what the director told them, unlike Nina, who seemed to idealise him as a paternal, godly figure.
I think Nina was completely paranoid of her and Lily honestly was just genuinely trying to help. Which is scary, how you can just be living your life and strangers can come to feel threatened by you just because of it.
That's if Lily is even real. But yes, I see her as the grown woman Nina desperately wishes she could allow herself to be.
Lily was definatly malicious she understood what she was doing and she wanted the part to the very end she try to harm nina.
I agree, Lily was never the antagonist she was just what Nina always wanted to be. Nina pictured her as the bad guy and threw every bad thing that happened to her onto Lily leading to picturing her as the black swan.
@@Guts-blood All right.
She drugged Nina
To this day I'm convinced that Nina's mom SAed her. A lot of it can be explained through her mom wanting to take her bodily autonomy away from her and infantilize her, but when she comes into her room and says: "Are you ready for me?".... It gives me the chills.
Also, the making her lick the frosting off of her finger is creepy af and adds to my belief.
Yeah it gives some really intense emotional incest vibes at LEAST. That mom is fucked up.
That could've happened. I think her mom wasn't real, like she was a hallucination since no other character besides Nina sees or interacts with her mother. But this could've happened when she was alive.
what abt the scene where Lily comes to apologize to Nina and the mother opens the door?@@mariaregina4242
@@mariaregina4242wait didn’t the mom speak to lily when she was at the door telling her nina is not home
@@hh-ei2nq um I don't remember but Nina imagined that remember?
Charlotte Bronte once said,
"A man's ideal woman is a curious creature. Half angel. Half doll."
Disgusting. A woman is not an angel, and is not a doll, she is a human being, and should be treated as such.
Nina's infantilization is so extreme because she has to be at least 25 y/o by the time the story takes place!! Her mom specifically made a comment about Nina "getting older" and the increased pressure being put on you as you age as a dancer. Nina is implied to be 27-28, close to the age Erica was when she retired in her late 20s due to her accidental pregnancy/ failure to leave the corps de ballet. Nina has been working with the company for a while at least since she said Thomas plans to feature her more that season. She also seems to be addressing her own fears when she's the only soloist supportive of Beth's continuing with the company in spite of her being "old" for a dancer.
Nine looks 33
Her age is never specified but most sources agree that she is presumably in her early 20s. I don’t recall when her mother makes a comment about Nina “getting older” but their argument in the living room when Nina scoffs at her mothers sacrificed ballet career saying “you were 27” leads me to believe she is not yet 27 herself and rather in her early 20s as she says this as if leaving her ballet career at 27 is a fine age to do so.
@@FinalGirlStudios Erica mentioned the pressure of aging in dance during the scene after the audition when she & Nina are in her bedroom discussing Nina telling Thomas she finished the Coda. I always interpreted Nina's scoffing less at the age & more that Erica was still 27 & only in the corps. At 27 you're not too old to dance & need to retire but you're too old to move up the ladder to principal dancer/ prima ballerina. As Nina cruelly states later, "I'm the Swan Queen, YOU never left the corps". I also guessed 25+ since many (but not all) dancers go to college & she had been with the company at least 1 season before this one. I just think if she is older it makes Erica's treatment so much creepier but it doesn't detract from the story if she is 22-23 instead.
I loved this vid though & if you haven't checked out the anime thriller this was based on, Perfect Blue, you may enjoy it. It's a hard watch but much of the imagery from Black Swan came from that film & it tackles similar themes but uses pop idols/ actresses instead of ballerinas. Also, it has touches on parasocial relationships/ toxic fans while the internet was still very new. The heroines of Satoshi Kon's films are great in general!!!
@@deidjpeidj yeah I think it could honestly be interpreted either way! I even checked the written script and there is no clear reference that I could find to her age in the script either.
I have seen Perfect Blue! I love the film! I went back and forth on if I should cover Black Swan or Perfect Blue or both at the same time or perhaps both separately. I still may cover Perfect Blue one day as contrary to what many say I find the main themes to be slightly different. But that isn’t to discredit the influence Satoshi Kon had on Black Swan! Overall I’m a bigger fan of Satoshi Kon over Aronofsky but I had more to say about Black Swan for the time being so I opted to analyze Black Swan as I am also a huge fan of the Swan Lake ballet and loved the way Aronofsky tied in the original story! But yes, I love Perfect Blue ☺️
I haven't watched this in a while but I could've sworn there's a line in there saying she's 28 which I thought was insane.
i think it's important to note that nina's mother's color is green. green is the color of envy. while nina's color story goes from white and baby pink to greys to black. the use of color in this film is one of the main reasons why i love it so much.
But green is also the colour of HOPE how she always hoped living vicariously through Nina
It hits so hard when you're an only child who grew up with a religious over protective mother who ressents you fot not bringing a husband home yet , while not allowing you to flirt with guys.
She wants you to be subservient. A slave to the first man that shows you fancy and absolutely thoughtless and agency-less; she's resenting the agency you have in turning down the creeps and weirdos and just normal good guys who don't meet your fancy that come your way. You have choice and she hates that.
I have a cousin with a similar but different situation. She's lovely but she's boy crazy and it has causes her too much trauma to cast care into the wind. She's bitterly jealous of another cousin who seemingly has men and husbands fall into her lap and many children when all but two of hers died under five. This cousin she's jealous of is borderline (low support needs) learning disabled; she doesn't care for her children or exercise caution with men; she left her husband of over a decade when he married a second wife but wouldn't when we complained he was inappropriate with her eldest child and is remartied and with a child three years later to a man he met on a bus the exact same day they married (they met at three in the afternoon).
Your mother hates the choice and chance for choice for better you have. My cousin hates that she's too smart to not have choice nor chance to choose.
@@availanila… there is so much going on in this comment my head is spinning. Her husband married a second wife?! What! And was “inappropriate” in some way with his child?? I hope this was reported to some actual authority? Is this a Mormon thing. Is this the one who married the man she met on the bus?
And all but two kids died under five?? How many kids died?? That’s terrible! I cannot imagine the psychological damage that alone would do to someone.
I am so sorry your mother makes you feel this way. Your worth is NOT measured by any man or lack of man you bring home. Your love life is yours alone and not hers to dictate. The psychological trauma that puts on a child no matter the age is awful. That can force you to feel you need to settle for some man that isn’t deserved of your time and attention, just to appease your mother. Religious fanatics also teach to be submissive to a husband, give him s3x when HE wants it, let him control the money, the decisions, you just be a good trad wife and make sandwiches and rub his feet and wash his dirty underwear and look the other way when he cheats. Just be happy you have a man who “takes care of you” aka puts you into a box where you depend on him and therefore have no agency. You can forge your own path, and when it is time to have a relationship, it will happen. And in the meantime, make mistakes and have flings and flirt and enjoy your life-just be safe. There’s no need for marriage and children until you’re at LEAST 30, whatever your mother thinks be damned.
I went to a Christian school and we girls were taught to be submissive to our husband and we must be v¡rgins or else we won’t be wanted by any good husband oh and climaxing isn’t necessary for a woman since it isn’t necessary to make children. And this was oh 6th grade? So I have a real hatred for people who use religion to control behaviors, normal behaviors like flirting, seduction, feeling like a woman, feeling sexy, not even meaning being promiscuous but just feeling attractive. That breeds a lack of confidence and causes so many women to settle for men who end up being abusers, controllers, narcissists, or just ending in an unhappy marriage where children are brought into the world and grow up to believe that’s also the life they deserve when they get married.
NEVER SETTLE. You deserve someone who is good to you, who you are compatible with, emotionally physically mentally. Someone who shares control of money and decisions.
Gah sorry for the rant. I just am sad to hear your own mother would put such a weight on you to make you feel like you are resented just bc you’re not married. Whether she means to or not, she has. I’m assuming you’re still pretty young, 20s? Regardless, take time to be yourself and get to know who yourself even is. Common sense only comes thru living life and making mistakes and learning from them. Never settle. Never. You’re amazing and deserve all the good things in life. ❤
@@HeatherHolt Africans practice polygamy so... She's been married now four times so her first child was by her second husband who she'd left for the third and it was CSA/grooming but she wouldn't do anything about it, she's now married for the fourth time and has her 8th with this man.
My smart cousin has been married twice, the first guy died the second nearly killed her and hurt one of her surviving kids so much he has a soeech impediment now at 16. One of her children died shortly after birth, another one had the same congenital condition that killed his dad but was exponentially faster "acting," and the last guy she tried shacking up with killed their newborn (he'd left her while pregnant and tried to force a miscarriage or @bortion.)
Smart cousin tries so hard to get someone or capture the magic she had with her dead husband but any stupid choice she makes is immediately and cruelly punished while my other cousin keeps getting away with it and getting these men to marry all the time.
I was an only child myself but my mum was so like the mother in the story and seems to be supportive but low-key trying to sabotage me and infantilise me by making me believe that the outside world was scary and living and being on your own was very hard and this did not instill much confidence in me. Furthermore because most all of her partners treated her badly and my dad did so and then cheated on her and left her for a younger woman she also instilled in me that men were horrible nasty and abusive and all they want is sex and I must turn them all down and if they're nice to me they're only trying to get sex and if that's revealed I must get rid of them. It's awful because it's meant I've struggled getting a partner myself and if I do, the few and far between times it happens, I end up paranoid they're abusive. My mum will usually tell me they are. No matter who it is, she will say they're abusive by things I've told her. It makes me really confused especially if they are good ti me
The "what happened to my little girl" feels so damning to me. My father has said this too me when I started rebelling as a young addult and expressing interest in things he dissagreed with. The parental disapointment is something that aches when all your trying to do is explore being a person.
YESS im dealing with that rn as I'm 18 and can no longer deal with my mom's babying. I feel horrible saying it but i can't help it I want to grow up!!
1:17:12 "One could see the art of ballet as an allegory for the female experience itself.
From the outside looking in, the art of ballet is delicate, beautiful and dainty, the ultimate feminine art form- though closer examination will reveal the pain underneath: the skipped dinners and bloodied feet, the endless rehearsal tears, the ever-present, haunting fear of not being good enough, of being replaced, of being anything short of perfect.
The ballerina, in spite of her cracked toenails, can maintain the illusion of effortlessness as she elegantly glides across the stage with a smile on her face.
Like ballet, womanhood is bleeding in isolation, skipped meals and a masking of one's pain behind a smile, all in pursuit of idealized perfection.
To be perceived as a beautiful woman, is to perform."
i literally cried with this video, the process of a girl transforming into a woman is painful.
watching this i realized that I've been coded as a wh0re before I could be a woman.
i think all of us females can relate to nina to a certain extent ...
Yep. cuz that’s exactly how my transition to womanhood was. Painful asf
you have no idea how bad I needed this video essay LOLOL I've been WAITINGGG for someone to be brave enough to actually dissect the themes in this movie relating to femininity, rather than just perfectionism. The comparison to The Dance of the Little Swans fully floored me
oh yes, just a four litlle denty "girls" performing their little cute dace..
This! So much of the movie revolves around the female experience and it's insane how little people talk about it on the internet.
When my partner and I watched Black Swan together for the 1st time, she expressed how horrified she felt throughout its entirety but still praised it for how good it was. And now, it sits on our shelf collecting dust because neither of is has the nerves to experience it again.
Lol
Wish I can watch. My controlling sibling will not let me.😢
It's truly the best horror movie that I've watched personally. And that's crazy because not many people consider it horror
@@davidkonevky7372lol it's horror for females. I'm a female . But I'm just saying. By the way it sounds . Lol
i'm a woman now. i watched this film when i was a teenager. it never struck to me as horror. it's meh for a film tbh but the way sone people justify it's what makes the film interesting
As a psychologist, this movie is both fascinating and deeply upsetting on a personal level. I work with children and young adults mostly, and while many of the young women I work with aren't like Nina, many of them are emotionally suppressed and are often dragged into my office after their parents force them to see me. They don't think there is anything wrong with them, that they are fine, when many times, unfortunately, they are not. Nina is infantilized, stuck in the place that many of my peers and I would call the 5th stage of psychological development at best, which is normally regulated for teenagers, not women in their 20's. Erik Erikson described this stage as being one where the person is in conflict with the idea of identity vs. role confusion. In a normal development, a teenager would find out their own unique role in the world around them and still maintain their individuality and their own personality. However, Nina has been basically brainwashed to the point where she doesn't know who she is outside of ballet and what her mother's expectations for her should be. Nina should have had friends, interests outside of ballet, and something resembling balance. This is not the case, to put it mildly. Not trying to insult single mothers at all, I have worked with many lovely and healthy women who are single mothers, but Nina's mother makes me want to violate the Hippocratic Oath with extreme prejudice. I see many people like Nina's mother in my work, entitled, selfish, and bitter women who try to force their children to be what they wanted to be, so they could live vicariously through them. Professionally, it's devastating to a child's self-worth and is one of the unhealthiest things anyone can do. Unprofessionally, it's beyond selfish and pathetic. While I can't technically officially give Nina therapy, for obvious reasons, if she were my client, I might recommend that she try new experiences, make some friends, and try to find a passion outside of ballet. The scene with Lily and Nina in the club might be the healthiest place Nina has ever been in, psychologically, which is really sad to say. Making friends, having fun, and exploring her sexuality (my head canon is that Nina is either bisexual or bicurious but has been so repressed that she shoves down those feelings too.) are all normal and healthy things to do, provided that they are done safely. Kissing your fellow dancer? If it's consensual on both sides, not a big deal. Willingly taking drugs? Big no-no, but if it's "just" that one time, shouldn't cause too much damage. Hallucinating having sex with your fellow dancer in a drug and alcohol induced fever dream? Not a great sign. The treatment I would recommend is fairly straightforward: get Nina out of Swan Lake immediately, take her to an institution, high risk to be on the safe side, and introduce her to likeminded people her age (Lily would be ideal, and she might be willing to help, as I think that she is a genuinely good person.). After that, cognitive behavioral therapy, possibly medication, inpatient treatment, and years and years of therapy to help her grow up properly. This video does a great job of showing the black and the white, and I need to emphasize how important the "grey" is. Nina isn't the Madonna, and she isn't the mistress, she's Nina, a young woman who needs serious help. I don't normally recommend this, but in my opinion, she needs a patient's gown, not a leotard. I normally hate the idea of placing anyone in a facility, as I think that for many people it can do more harm than good, but in Nina's case, she needs it. I mean, she stabs herself with a shard of glass and is so dissociated from reality that she doesn't even realize it until multiple minutes later. Women are in the "grey" here, and I can't emphasize enough the need to have proper mental health services in the entertainment industry. Also, Thomas can go deep-throat a saguaro cactus. Thanks for reading my comment and have a great day!
Amazing analisys from psychologist side. Thank you
@@AmeliaBassa You're very welcome! I always try to give a whole perspective, but I need to recommend seeing many professionals in a clinical setting, not just reading my comment. Have a great day!
Being the scapegoat of a narcissistic mother I think Nina would do good with supervision and away from her mother. Getting her into an institution will only damage her even more because she would never be grown up to be an adult.
Beautifully done. I especially appreciated the discussion about how young women get pitted against each other (Nina vs. Lily) or they develop fixations (not sure if they want to kill, kiss, or be her). It's a much more nuanced view and I hadn't considered the more white swan characteristics Lily shows that are easily interpreted (or misinterpreted) as being malicious.
Exactly lol @tinker_belle41
@tinker_belle41 I can definitely see that. Lily would have absolutely not played around if directeur Handsy-pants tried anything.
On a side note, I highly recommend the book I Feed Her to the Beast and the Beast is Me by Jamison Shea if you want more female rage and supernatural goings on with your madness and competitive ballet setting.
“They want to kiss, kill, or BE her”
Omg I love this line and I hope you don’t mind I will use it in the future ❤ I will belt out to the heavens it was a line I saw from an amazing TH-cam commenter named Valerie. You’re awesome.
Edit: so I just saw the part where Final Girl says the kiss kill or be her line but.. I’m still giving you the credit since your comment was the first time I heard it. 😊
@@HeatherHolt I can't take credit for that. I was just referencing what was said in the video (around 33:46).
Have you ever watched "Perfect Blue" by Satoshi Kon?
'Black Swan" seems to be heavily influenced by it and also explores the Madonna and the Mistress concept.
I was waiting for this comment! You can't bring up Black Swan without bringing up Perfect Blue. Perfect Blue is such a good psychological thriller and Black Swan was definitely heavily inspired from it and I don't think anyone who has watched both can contest that. The themes and story beats are near identical and even the main character who goes from the innocent and perfect star infantilized by people around her to being pushed past their mental breaking point, and she's even named Nina, similar to Mima (the japanese ver of the name) in Perfect Blue. Anyone who has seen Black Swan needs to watch Perfect Blue, they'll love it!
It’s not just inspired it takes scene for scene imagery with no recognition for perfect blue as the source material unfortunately… :/
@@ocarinagamer4207 If I recall correctly too, the director of Black Swan had actually asked for the rights to adapt Perfect Blue into live action but the creator turned it down because he wanted to leave his film as is and wasn't sure how well the story could be easily adapted into an American setting anyway, so out of retaliation for not getting the rights, they created Black Swan as essentially a middle finger to the director. I like Black Swan by itself but when compared, it's a disservice to Perfect Blue and doesn't match up to the masterpeice Perfect Blue is, and the situation leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth, especially with how much more Black Swan tends to get talked about, at least in the west.
@@jackofhearts5542 yes, the director of Black Swan did this with yet *another* of Satoshi Kon’s films, Paprika, and made a movie called Inception. Pretty wild
If you like Satoshi Kon stuff Paranoia Agent is a good watch.
Does anyone else notice the colors of the apartment? The constant green and pink? It's like the mother represents green and Nina (and also ballet) are represented by pink. In Nina's room there's hints of green that feels like her mother asserting herself into her personal life. Like her bedroom.
green could also represent being green with envy
@@secretlife8625 ooooh, I like that!
Nina is 26 years old in the movie, while the most common age for a professional dancer is 20 to 30 years old; she is in a kind of now or never state of mind therefore.
As sad as I feel for Nina, I feel bad for Lily as well. I think she saw how Nina was suffering, and tried to reach out and befriend her. But of course she's not equipped to handle someone going through psychosis. I imagine she feels shock and guilt in the end.
It was extremely important to me and my husband that our daughter from very early in life that she alone owns her body, and that we will not shame her or stop her from growing up. We’ve discussed growing up with her. She knows it’s normal. She just turned 14, and we know she’s got Black Swan elements as well as White Swan. A parent’s job is to help guide our children toward adulthood, and stopping them results in secrecy and resentment. Our daughter talks to us. We embrace all sides of her, and are honored that she discusses her thoughts and feelings with us, as well as asks for advice and input on things many parents prefer to think their kids know nothing about. We’re proud of her.
did you watch the video? @@flowergirl5336
maybe say this to a therapist or something not a youtube comments section
@@RED-my9hl You did watch the video, right? When it discusses trauma and parents stopping kids from growing up, it stands to reason that people will discuss that stuff in the comments. It doesn’t mean needing a therapist.
By the way, the people who leave comments like yours are the lonely broken bitches who are insecure about not having friends to talk to, and so decide to feel better by telling others they need therapy. Besides, you had the option to read or scroll past, but you chose to read. Go talk to your own therapist about your need to comment instead of scroll.
@@flowergirl5336 …did you watch the video? The white swan symbolizing purity, and the black swan symbolizing being more grown up? I have a teenager in puberty who is also at an age of not yet having experience with others, but also has thoughts of an adult nature because she’s a human experiencing normal development, and she won’t be shamed for this.
I swear people need to watch and understand videos before reading and commenting on posts that would be understood with the context of the video.
@@flowergirl5336 It's only weird if you think there's something weird about the thoughts themselves. The OP didn't dwell on these thoughts or anything, she just commented the she accepts her daughter will have them as they're part of a normal development - and her daughter rewards her acceptance by actually coming to her for advice about things that most teenagers keep from their parents.
This was such a good essay. I loved the connection you made to the Tiktok trends dedicated to contrasting two different "camps" of women. On one level, that stuff can be harmless fun, but on another level it can lead to creating false links between personality/behavior and looks. These trends could play a part in forcing women into the Madonna or Whore roles based on their looks.
Right, like what is it called when you portray and feel like both sides of the coin, sometimes seductive sometimes pure. Sometimes feminine sometimes not. Why must it be either or - and why does that kind of content get clicks? It wouldn’t be popular if people weren’t watching it. And I’d love to see how the algorithm feeds that content to certain types of women, women more likely to look up plastic surgery or makeup trends or diets or whatever search terms it would prioritize to then show these camps of women videos.
Sometimes the littlest things, in their endless volume, make the whole social paradigm feel like "reality"--it's as endless as the rain, wind, and sun hitting you when you go outside. "Of course it's real"... you know?
I'm a tallish, curvy black woman who developed somewhat "early" (around 11 years old). I always felt more like the innocent ingenue, but the world perceived me as the whore or at least as rebellious when I was a struggling little girl. I distinctly remember attending a dance school in a "bad" neighborhood when I was 7-8 years old, some miles from the suburban la-la land that I lived in, and how harsh the teacher (a black woman) was with me at first because I looked like one of her difficult middle schoolers (even though looking back at photos of myself back then I don't know how *anyone* could have mistaken me for more than ten. I grew up thinking I looked "older than my age" such that I still expect to be perceived as more than my actual age, and am now confused that people are starting to mistake me for younger). I became obsessed with performing the ingenue role thinking that I could telegraph that I was "one of the good ones", but after a while I started to try (and miserably fail at) the hardness and strength that was seemingly expected of me. I was locked into a strict Madonna-whore complex basically my entire life, where if I failed to perfectly portray the good girl I would instantly be met with "I knew you were a bad girl all along".
I needed this comment, was thinking about this exactly. thank you
Idk if anyone has mentioned this, but in the bar scene Lily she makes fun of Beth for believing Thomas when he called her his “little princess” and Nina tries to defend him by saying that the pet name is only for Beth and he would never use it for someone else, then at the end of the movie he calls Nina his "little princess". She had previously shown that she thought of Beth as perfect and I think that Thomas calling her that was the last block to fully complete her vision of perfection. Loved your analysis
"She has no time to investigate her madness" relatable. 😂😂 😢and what an amazing piece this video is, thank you
That scene where Nina destroys her stuffed animals is almost a complete replication of Selina Kyle's own breakdown from "Batman Returns". After her boss tries to murder her, Selina returns to her apartment, has a complete mental meltdown, and remakes herself into Catwoman, an overtly sexual woman who is unafraid to speak her mind and cause trouble. The first thing she does during that scene is destroy her stuffed animals by shredding them in the garbage disposal.
It seems to be a thing or female characters that deciding whether or not to keep "childish" things is an essential key to discovering their identities. Sometimes, they choose to keep them, like in Jim Henson's "Labyrinth". Sara, the main character, keeps relics of her childhood, stating that she needs them now and again. In most of these films, however, like "Black Swan" and "Batman Returns", the women completely reject those childish items, seeing them as obstacles holding them back.
Inversely, we get movies like "Hook" and "Christopher Robin" where the male leads have to rediscover their inner child in order to reclaim their identities. These are all older, sexually mature men with jobs, wives, and children, men who drink too much, work too much, and are tired and beaten down by the expectations of society. As they reach rock bottom, the very childish things that they discarded seek them out and drag them back to their childhoods. In doing so, the men regain some of their lost optimism and energy, and they gain the courage to stand up to the societal powers that are beating them down.
I really wish we had a movie like that with a female lead, where an older woman beaten down by life is rescued by the childish things she gave up rather than having her give them up in order to succeed.
wow
Fantastic deep dive. One thing you didn't mention is Nina's disordered eating. It's another way that she struggles with her bodily autonomy - her body is "owned" by her mother, her choreographer, the costume department... and she attempts to control it and make it "perfect" through disordered eating and purging. That plays in to the scene where her mother makes her the cake and cuts her a big slice. She tries to maintain control over the one thing she can (what she eats) but even that autonomy is taken away from her. EDs can also result in delayed puberty.
oh wow, i didn’t even think of this!!
Whenever I need a moment to vent my frustrations with our patriarchial society, I watch your vids and go "UH HUH EXACTLY!!"🤣
This is so felt
Yupp
yes!!
If you have any issues with face blindness this movie offers 60% less dimension
I knew she was paranoid but I missed like… every single time that a face was supposed to look like her/actually WAS her. Knowing all that I missed the movie is almost TOO obvious now 💀 but it is impressive that they cast so many talented women who looked similar.
maybe I'm kinda face blind bc I think these women look nothing alike. i was like "doppleganger? no way...." but then again, as I type this, im having a hard time picturing their faces so 💁♀️ maybe I'm not the best judge.
One thing that they either left out or didn’t know is that, in ballet companies, they don’t just pick random company members to fill in for the staring role. Lily must have been the understudy for the swan queen otherwise she would not have known the steps and would not have been used as a backup. Also Nina would have to be a pretty high rank in the company in order to get a role like that. It seems like she got a new promotion from soloist to principal dancer after Beth’s retirement. That doesn’t necessarily mean she will always get the main role but she wouldn’t be in a small role.
I know nothing of ballet but it seemed to me that Nina was probably that go to ballerina when they needed someone with good technique but just didn’t fit with having the role of the queen swan. High in the company but not always the principal
@@ldgfootage yeah it’s just that in a professional company everyone has good technique. Nina’s problem was that she was relying on it too much. Once you have the technique you can let go a bit and just dance. Nina couldn’t do that. Also in professional companies the ranks are pretty important and literally come with different pay scales. Someone from the corps de ballet might be called on for a solo role but not a principal role. Likewise a principal might have a solo role rather than a principal role but wouldn’t be in the corps. The ranks are corps de ballet, demi soloist, soloist, and principal. I think it’s safe to assume that Mila’s character came in as a soloist from another company, which is why she was a threat to Nina and was understudy for the Swan Queen, explaining how she knew the steps.
That's so true from the surface ballet looks dainty, weak, girly. The embodiment of femininity. But the qualities needed to persevere in it are considered to be masculine. A hard core surrounded by soft shell.
And the whole masculine vs feminine traits concept crumbles like a house of cards.
Because doing ballet requires "masculine" qualities. But it's somehow considered a feminine art.
especially since it used to be for only men, based off fencers, i find like with many other masculine things like, heels, makeup, unicorns and wigs, once women show interest, men tend to disappear and find something else, yet when women make femininity profitable like cooking/chef, seamstress/tailor, women are expected to share their space, but with now less appreciation/pay
I haven't watched this movie in a good decade-ish, but last time I watched it, I had this idea that your video reminded me of. One of the times Erica is "comforting" Nina, she says she certainly understands the pressures a ballerina is put under as she ages, insuniuating she herself was an older ballerina at one point. Then, during that living room scene, Nina makes her comments about "what career" and that her mom was "only" something, after confirming Erica had been 28 - together that paints a picture of an aging Erica that was a corps/ensemble dancer and never a prima, and was getting to the point where because of that age, she'd never progress. So I've thought perhaps Erica didn't really have Nina accidentally, but rather claimed to have done so as an excuse to retire from a ballet career that wasn't actually going anywhere. Or that maybe if she didn't actively attempt to get pregnant, she subconsciously self-sabotaged by not using protection so she'd have an "out," as it were. The way she constantly throws her pregnancy in Nina's face would still track especially if it was the latter, as she would've easily resented Nina for "ending" her career. And even with the former, if she intentionally got pregnant, she's had twenty+ years to sell the lie to everyone, including herself, so she may have even convinced herself it was an accident. The way she weaponizes how she got pregnant speaks to some really screwed up emotions around it, either way.
Probably more a wild conspiracy theory than anything else, but Erica is very much a narcissistic abuser, and warping reality to suit their victim/martyr picture of themselves is textbook behavior. I rewatched some scenes before commenting, too, just to double check, and Erica reminds me very much of some of the worst people in my life, and I can speak from personal experience that they remember things factually wrong to feed their narratives. So I dunno, it just seems plausible to me that Nina wasn't an accidental pregnancy, but one Erica planned for attention, praise, and to further her notion that she's a paragon of Goodness and Sacrifice and Nobility and whatnot.
Anyway, keep up the awesome work!
Erica absolutely had Nina when she couldn’t get out of the corps on her own. Either as a last ditch that went wrong (screwing someone who casts) or more likely given that she’s a raging narcissist with apparently solid money, a way to receive attention as a ‘career cut short’ to do the ‘noble’ work of raising Nina-and reliving her own career only this time as a prima.
It’s way, way, way common.
This is so spot on!
Don't rlly write comments often, but to Final Girl Studios, I wanna say thank you. Thank you for your bravery and the articulate, careful nature with which you share these thoughts on a topic, that I believe, as humans, should try our best to understand: that topic being each other. Being a human is hard enough, and what more the topics, trials, and tribulations one goes through as a woman, the woman being a complex, beautiful, thoughtful, emotional being, who carries weights, burdens, hopes and dreams whose vision of themselves, influenced by a plethora of things and people and circumstances that, as a man, i could never imagine. Defo not the audience for this video, but as a person who admires excellence and the freedom of expression, which I think your videos embody amazingly, I applaud your work. From a creative to another creative, you have my applause..
Wow thank you so much for taking the time to watch and comment. This is a beautiful comment thank you. I appreciate your kindness and generosity!
Of course. @@FinalGirlStudiosThe path of a creative, especially one who seeks authenticity in their work and genuine effort in their ventures can be one seen as desolate and difficult. Female creators such as yourself are some of the bravest and most honest artists on TH-cam, in my opinion, if not the bravest, with how articulate and poignant the choice of subject and wording are.
And ngl, tysm for putting me onto Daisies (1969) it is truly one of the most impactful movies I've ever seen, such an amazing handling of style and substance lmao
it's also a loop: beth replaced by nina. nina replaced by lily. the black swan assuming the white swan role and then being replaced by another black swan (remember the swan babies are always born in dark shades first and then they turn white.)
I'm not sure if it was intentional or not but, to me the ballet director acts as both the prince and Rothbart. He is the one who takes control of the lives of the swans and thus, just like Rothbart in the ballet, he is the one directing the black swan and the one who puts the spell on the white swan.
The prince wants to be with the white swan, but doesn't really see her. He is enamored by the purity of the white swan, even fetishizing it, but immediately lusts after the black swan.
The ballet director is a total creep, assaulting the dancers while also calling them his little princess. He infantalizes them, fetishizes them and harrasses them in almost every way.
He discarts the previous swan as soon as she stops being of use to him.
ALSO! The Swan Lake ballet actually has more than one ending, with one of them being the prince killing the white swan before realizing his mistake. He shoots her and she dies.
And before the final performance it is the director that also deals his own finishing blow with the "The only one standing in your way is you" line.
To me this shows both endings: the white swan taking her own life and the prince hurting her. Both have the prince realize his mistake too late.
Great analysis! One thing I noticed also was when Nina's mother is undressing her she takes off Nina's earrings and asks her where she got them saying they look real, Nina says they're fake and she says "coulda fooled me" implying that Nina must have done something to get them and thus get the part...like she's not actually good enough on her own.
Also, I'm sure a 1000 other ppl have said it but, Nina literally means little girl in spanish while Lily is a play off Lilith, the first woman ejected from Eden for being too unruly.
i think another important aspect to discuss is nina’s eating disorder and how it relates to her perfectionism as well as her mother’s obsession with nina’s girlhood. her eating disorder can be seen as an attempt at staying childlike, which would please nina’s mother, as well as her perfectionism both within and outside of ballet. i think eating disorders can also be looked at through the white swan/black swan lens, as on the surface they are mental illnesses striving for beauty, grace, innocence, and frailty, but are actually incredibly dark and insidious-even deadly. just another layer to how nina has a white swan exterior with black swan motives.
girl you have done it again, constantly raising the bar for us all
And doing it flawlessly!!!
Nina’s relationship with her mother reminds me of Jennette McCurdy’s relationship with her mother, as she expressed in her book. Jennette’s mom wanted to stunt her from becoming a woman, both physically and mentally wanting her to stay a child for as long as possible with the excuse being that she wanted her to get more child acting roles. She proceeded to project her own insecurities and disorders, instigating the start of Jennette’s eating disorder and shifting the conversation whenever Jennette was curious or confused about that and many other topics. Throughout her entire life Jennette’s mom acted like Nina’s, crying and screaming when she felt like Jennette was even remotely going against what she wanted. The cake scene reminds me of the part of the book when Jennette’s mom took her out to get ice cream for them to share, and Jennette gets the courage to tell her she wants a different flavor, but her mom begins to cry and be so upset because she ALWAYS wants the flavor she chooses. She never cared about what Jennette wanted, she just wanted to live vicariously through her daughter and would always tell her that she was lucky to be an actor (something she pushed for her to do) because she never got that opportunity. It’s sad that mothers ruin their daughter’s girlhood just because they may have lost their own and are too afraid to talk about how navigating the world of womanhood is so devastating and terrifying, but there’s still beauty in being a woman. Women are allowed and should embrace all parts of what it means to be a woman, even the “childish” and innocent parts we miss. Women aren’t one dimensional and never have been.
i remember when I first watched this movie and thought it was such an interesting and haunting story. Especially when this destructive mindset of "perfection" can be seen in so many people in real life. Sadly, many people don't accept or understand that objective perfection is not something that exists
If anyone is curious about the angel-like statue from the gala, the statue is named Future Clone and made by Fritz Scholder a Native American artist from the La Jolla Band of Luiseno Indians from California.
I just wanna point out how in the final scene Nina isn't concerned that she's bleeding after her performance she's only concerned with how her performance was perfect. It relates that idea of a woman reaching her prime and how she can only be preserved in her prime youthful state only if she dies. Growing past this stage would only lead to the inevitable aging and her losing her appeal. Just like how butterflies are preserved in death in their beautiful young and vibrant state so they can be pinned into perfect picture frames before they age and die their natural course.
Well it's just my take.
I think it's incredibly smart that Natalie Portman's character was named Nina since it means "little girl" in Spanish: I think it drives even more that Nina is supposed to be child-like and innocent, yet her actions progressively become more of the Black Swan, aka she's becoming a woman.
Natalie speaks Spanish!! Which makes sense!♡
As a Spanish speaker, I never connected Nina to anything since in my eyes and to my ears that doesn't come close to being the the same as "niña". Nina is not a word for us.
All I could think of was how her mom thought about her daughter's path from birth since she names her Nina, which rhymes with ballerina.
this is my roman empire and this is what was so needed in the analysis of this brilliant film. im sure u've seen this too, an interpretation of this film being about an artist striving for perfection through self-desctruction. as an artist, i always loved this interpretation and thought of it to be the best one, but your video is the last puzzle piece that was so needed! i love how many more women add their own interpretations of media lately and it shocks me how little i pay attention to the gender aspect of movies even though i've experienced all of it too! brilliant, amazing, beautiful graphic design and font choices! you did amazing ❤
i also love how it's beautifully connected to the malena video you did. malena explores the exploitation of the whore and the black swan explores the exploitation of the prude!
It's always a good day when Winx Club is mentioned.
Personally, I prefer "Witch", but to each their own.
love the pfp
@@sailorscoot262 ty
I've noticed that men & women have drastically different reactions to this movie (for the most part). I've heard several men, my husband included, refer to it as trippy, elevated horror- specifically body horror that's designed to make you cringe. And while that isn't entirely untrue, I've heard multiple women describe it as a realistic, authentic symbol of women's life experiences.
Basically, a lot of men see this as something that's meant to be surreal & scary, while women see it as a true depection of reality, which is especially interesting given how so much of it is an obvious hallucination.
And every single woman I've discussed this movie with mentions her the last shot when Nina happily saying "I was perfect" which is obviously more important to her than a potentially fatal wound. That's actually why I clicked on this video to begin with. It's interesting. And although the madonna/whore foil is thousands of years old, it's still wild that a bunch of dudes wrote this.
I honestly think I needed this video, I've seen video essays about this movie in the topic of an artists perfectionism, even compared to whiplash, which, while true and on point, always left me unsatisfied, the complexity of girlhood and womanhood and also female relationships (we all know we felt something while you were talking about the mother-daugther relationship to say the least) is much more extensive in this movie, you made me think about things I hadn't considered.
I really liked Lily’s character, but a lot of people in the comment section seem to be forgetting that she literally spiked Nina’s drink. She doesn’t even deny it when confronted about it.
oof... could it have been a trigger for the psychosis I wonder?
@@meganmarie4541oh my goodness i never thought of that
I remember my mom taking me out of the theater when "the lesbian scene" came on 😂 if that ain't ironic poetry
"Not knowing if you want to kill her, kiss her, or be her." This is such an interesting line and I think it explains so much
Omg my dream become true, you are talking abut Black Swan
Now THIS essay reflects what I saw in the film as a woman. Not a struggle for perfection. Thank you for this feminine analysis on the film.
I don't know, I'm kind of tired of the dichotomy between the Black swan equaling the seductress, the adult woman, and the white swan meaning innocence. I can see elements that are dark even in childhood, the chaos, the lack of self-control, the greed, the self-absorption, and then there's also grace and purity in finally becoming an adult woman, having more self-awareness and being kinder to yourself. I would be interested in seeing an inversion of the black swan vs white swan dichotomy because in many ways it's based on the make gaze and misogynistic views of womanhood. But I think the female gaze has an opportunity here to view things the other way around, that girls who are thrown into a male dominated world start out as black swans (and remember I'm breaking from the idea that the black swan equates to sexuality but more so chaos, a lack of understanding, an imitation rather than the real thing) but then gradually learn to become a white swan. The thought isn't fully developed but there's something there.
it's the way I wrote in my dairy yesterday how bad I feel about not being "good enough" and how there is always going to be someone "better than me" at everything, whether it's just one person or one person for each thing I wish I was "better" or "perfect" at.
this made me feel a little bit better. it's a classic case of "yeah, turns out I'm not alone" but these feelings are not something I can, as of now, talk about with anyone around me because 1. I don't feel ready to share them and 2. Should I even share them? therefore it's not easy to see if there is someone else who feels this way. deep down I feel every woman feels this way, but every girl and woman keeps it inside, a never-ending battle they fight with only themselves. I get caught up in looking at all the scars and bloodshed from that inner battle to realize how many wounded women are also around me. and I'll admit it's hard not to, not because I don't have sympathy and don't want fellow women and girls to have comfort and feel at ease with themselves, or because I am throwing myself a pity party, but because everyone woman, myself included, hides that battle, that bloodshed, and rusty, scraped armor. as we feel like we have to pretend to be the princess waiting for her knight or the witch watching from the sidelines. and any look into the inner self that doesn't align with that, we scramble to fix it, or ignore it, or rationalize it, or anything besides accepting it.
I feel you so much and let me tell you you are definetly not alone with this ❤
I’m sorry, you talked about dressing as either a princess or a witch for Halloween, and I just remembered that I dressed like a cat and a hippo in a tutu, lol. Also, My favorite Disney princess movie was Snow White, because of the dwarfs and the sparkly jewel mine they worked in, not the princess. I think I’ve always subconsciously chosen the secret third option: goofy mascot character.
Hahahaha mad respect for the hippo in a tutu costume
This mom is off the rocker for treating her daughter like this
Yes the movie makes it sound like its impossible to play odile and odette at the same time, but in the ballet its basically always the same ballerina who plays them both that way the audience is convinced that odile looks like odette, they changed this in the movie for the purpose of story telling but it isn't accurate at all, amazing video though I learned so much from this thankyou!
I never thought Lilly existed… I always thought she was who the main character wanted to be…. We are watching the film through the main character’s perspective….
But I loved this video!!
if she doesn’t exist, then how did tomas know to point her out during rehearsals? he pointed her effortless dancing out to nina
Loved this, the degree of care & nuance you treat your female subjects-fictional and otherwise alike-with, is admirable. So this is not a critique of this essay specifically as I think it was very well constructed but rather a more broad reflection that I do think is something to consider perhaps for those who may be unaware. I know it’s a tired film nerd point but it is absolutely true that Black Swan is essentially just Perfect Blue with the serial numbers filed off (people call it an “adaptation” but clearly Aronofsky was upset about not being given the rights to the film so that definitely colored how he went about the story).
Given this, I do wish that we got nearly half as many in-depth essays about it, as we do for this film. Yes Black Swan is an excellent film that does bring something somewhat new to the table in terms of the inclusion of the more overt reference to the “black swan” vs. “white swan” dynamic-and Portman gives an amazing performance as Nina. However, this relatability is present in Perfect Blue, just in more subtle ways I suppose. The trappings and performance of womanhood is the crux of the story. While I would say that it certainly does hone in more on the psycho-horror aspects of the story than Black Swan that I understand may put off some viewers, especially other women, there is much to be parsed from the many interpretations that could be taken from it. Even more so than in Black Swan. Whether you see Rumi as a real person or as more of a metaphorical symbol is one interpretation for example. Mima’s troubles are certainly very gendered, drawing similarities to the case of Björk’s stalker as well.
I can’t help but ask if most Western audiences don’t know or just don’t bother with Perfect Blue bc it is animated and they would have to read subtitles. I wonder whether if Black Swan was animated if audiences would care as much as they do? Not to sound like Guillermo Del Toro but animation, especially from non-western nations, is truly undervalued and seen as a “lesser” or more “confusing” art form than stuff with “real ppl”. Not to mention the fact that, at least in my opinion, Perfect Blue’s presentation of female sexuality and victimhood is a bit more nuanced & would complicate the view on the topic that many women seem to hold. Part of me does believe that Nina Sayers being an American white woman positions her as a sort of “blank canvas” for the, namely, white women/girls watching to see themselves in. As opposed to Mima Kirigoe who is a Japanese woman. Once again I don’t want to make it seem like Black Swan lovers are the antichrist or “stupid” ofc but rather to question what we decide to invest our time in & why. Very long winded & i prolly have a typo or two so my apologies lol!
I watched Perfect Blue before I knew about Black Swan and honestly both are really great movies and I enjoyed them, but I remember WAY more from Perfect Blue than from Black Swan. It just had an even bigger impact especially because it had lots of things that were hinted at in the background like the fish in Mima's Room. It's honestly sad that some people don't even TRY watching animated stuff when it is just as good if not better. Like you can put even more symbolism into animation and It's really pleasant to watch as well.
Very good point made. I love Perfect Blue very much. I, too, do feel like Black Swan is mainly aimed at white women.
Perfect Blue is so cool In its art style. I just hate all those creepy men, from the photographer to that stalker.
You made me notice similarities that I didn’t expect between the two movies. Black Swan does take a from Perfect Blue, definitely
Ericka’s relationship with Nina reminds me of Yolanda Hadid’s relationship with her daughters
Absolutely incredible analysis! I also think it's really interesting that the same things that were said about Nina's bedroom (an extension of herself, etc) can be said about her dressing room. Since ballet is so all-encompassing of Nina's life, her dressing room functions as a second bedroom in a sense and we see Nina's career as a ballerina portrayed in her dressing room (replaceable Beth, the fear of being taken over by Lily). And as she destroys herself and by extension her career. she destroys her dressing room- the same way Beth does when told she's forced to retire.
Omg wow yes that’s such an incredible observation!!
This is an excellent take! I feel like in addition to being emotionally manipulative and controlling, Nina’s mother also seems to be terrified of Nina’s mental state. It feels like hints are dropped throughout that Nina has suffered some other type of mental break previously. Her mother mentions something about digging out an expensive coverup that they had once used before, presumably the last time Nina started scratching her self. It’s like the ouroboros, the more Nina pushes away, the tighter her mother holds, the tighter she holds, the more Nina seems to slip away from reality, the more that happens, the more her believes she must hold tighter.
Hi. I used a quote from your website for a presentation on women in horror that you inspired. I just wanted to say thank you for all that you do as it has really inspired me to critically think of media that I consume.
Ooh my gosh, im so happy someone is talking about this. I did a huge thesis presentation of the Madonna Whore Complex for my class with Black Swan as the example! This is so cool!
Impressively well researched and thought through. Black Swan is one of my top 3 favourite films. I'd highly recommend watching Perfect Blue, too, a deeply unsettling psycho horror anime that was a very obvious source of inspiration for Aronofsky
I find it interesting that you have a video about the problematic relationship between the mother and daughter preceded by a quotation from Sylvia Plath, who similarly had a problematic relationship with her mother, who also spent her life living through her daughter.
This video is so freeing. What an intricate and intelligent take, loved this!
Beautifully done 🎉🎉🎉 sometimes I come to these videos as a cleanser from intense misogyny online. You're like a lifeline back to reality x
Excellent to see the womanhood take. And to see three foils for Nina's arc ✨
I remember when the movie came out and I was practically shouted down by my school friends for suggesting that Nina was more of a black swan than Lily.
This video was vindication, I felt like a fool, then.
It was incredibly enlightening for me to hear that. In the Madonna/Whore complex it's the Whore who's portrayed as miserable, bitter, cunning, and deeply jealous of the Madonna, but as I've seen these archetypes play out in real life (even though the lines are much more blurred in real life to the point where the distinction of Madonna/Whore is relative if it even exists at all), it's often like this- where the so-called "pure" woman, chasing an ideal of happiness, grows miserable from the control that she is under, while the woman who never cared is the one who is free. In my mind, two of my now-deceased female role models growing up represented these two archetypes, and as I've gotten older I've come to this conclusion about them. Another aspect of the dichotomy is how often the Whore "expires" while the Madonna is rewarded with longevity, but here, it is the Madonna who "expired", driven to madness. It really made me think about how attempting to embody "purity" is really a raw deal, a promise of perfection that never was achievable.
perfect blue perfectly portrays a lot of these themes in a genuinely terrifying and disturbing way
I have to say that the movie Pretty Woman had a huge influence on me. I saw it when I was 6. My mom would tell me to close my eyes on the "bad" scenes. But I still saw that whole movie regardless. After that I literally thought I wanted to be a prostitute. I thought things would go just like it did for Vivian. Luckily as I grew up I realized I did not want to ever be a prostitute, but I played the whole femme fatale troupe in my late teens and early 20s. I did end up meeting my husband though and we've been married for 16 years now. My ideas on being overtly sexy outside of the bedroom has changed quite a bit since my 20s.
I saw Black Swan only once, and it shook me. I am not a dancer, but I was an academic perfectionist, due to having a learning disability and a strong desire to be respected and go to a decent college. Now, I have a niece who is graduating high school this spring, and she seems to sail through her classes. Seeing her experience makes me wonder why I tortured myself the way I did.
The parallel between this movie and Jennette McCurdy’s biography is actually terrifying
OMG FINALGIRLSTUDIOS MAKING A BLACK SWAN VIDEO?? LOSING MY SHIT
Anyway, as a Native person I felt this dichotomy even harder especially considering the oversexualized stereotypes of Native girls and women and my queerness, disabilities and neurodivergencies made that even harder! Tysm 🥺💕✨
Huh?
Yeah I relate to this as well as an Asian girl. P0rn, the media, and stereotypes reinforce an idea that's very similar to the Madonna-whore which is the China doll and dragon lady for Asian women. I've been sexually harassed by two boys in sophomore year of high school by being shown Asian p0rn and saying that the Asian woman in it was me; meanwhile, my parents-moreso my dad- fed me the idea of modesty, decency, self-respect and being a good woman by chastity and lack of sexual experience. Even though both dichotomies are sexualized, the main difference is that the China doll is more passive in her sexuality and seemingly more innocent, pure, and child-like; she's sexualized for being less in touch with her sexuality that allows for a man, particularly a white man, to be the more domineering one. The dragon lady on the other hand, has more sexual agency and is more active in her sexuality, but is depicted as aggressive and domineering who sometimes has to be tamed. Either way, this kind of dichotomy serves to dehumanize Asian women and fetishize us.
@@Odes1Angel What is there to be confused about??
@@candy-ninja The OP. This has got to be one of the more absurd comments on here 😂😂
black swan is one of my all time favorite movies, thank you so much for your analysis!!!!!
I don’t get what the s3x scenes were for though…. I fast forward them. In all shows and movies…
@@SallySkellington94In what ways? Unless my guess is right and Lilly never existed and she is showing the audience her struggle within herself. But what do you think the s3x scenes means?
@@SallySkellington94I love your perspective!!! Thank you for explaining it to me. Never seen it that way. ❤
Happy New year’s!!🎉
Wishing you good luck and vibes for 2024🎉🎉🎉❤❤
If you already haven't, you should check out the anime film that inspired the director, Perfect Blue. It is also amazing & one of my favorite movies ever in spite of some very hard to watch segments. Perfect Blue touches on many of the same topics as Black Swan but through the lens of the Japanese pop idol/ entertainment industry instead of ballet. It also tackles parasocial relationships/ toxic fandoms when the internet was still in its early days. Aronofsky added some unique elements by bringing in ballet/ Swan Lake but Perfect Blue was 100% the blueprint for this film.
This is one of my favourite movies and there are no video essays discussing and analysing it in such depth. It made me notice some imagery i had overlooked even though i have watched the movie multiple times. I always saw bits and pieces of myself in nina, my struggle with an eating disorder for almost three years now, the constant need to be perfect being the only child in a strict household and navigating my identity as someone who is bisexual.This movie really helped me empathise with myself and made me realise the consequences of being extremely controlling over one's image. I was wondering when this will be uploaded on your substack as i'd love to read it too.
I love that it's becoming increasingly popular feminist movie analysis video essays like it just makes sense for certain media to analyze it like that. Where else am I supposed to hear someone agree about the struggles of womanhood too?
My favorite movie. I completly understand what it feels to have a controling mother. And how it fades away any chance of being yourself. Its hard to break free. Its like they cut your "wings" and you can fly. Or like in the movie you lost your leg so you can runaway.
The intelligence on every level that went into this video is astounding !!! Thank you so much to Final Girl Studio’s for your deciphering take on this topic. Not only to just this movie but the original ballet and how it plays into femininity and womanhood.
I really enjoyed your take and my whole being is defiantly more aware of the things that you shine a light on❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Most of my fics have me play around with the seductress type of characters and the archtype itself, try to get them a happy chapter in their stories (not an ending, a chapter).
But I wonder if I do it out of genuine empathy, or of my lust as a man. How can I be sure of which one ? Is there an answer ?
This describes my life so much my struggle with my sexuality and femininity and the innocence it feels like parts of me are fighting each other.
This totally seems like it could have been a Kubric film to me. aronofsky is a true talent - I cannot even bring myself to watch Requiem for a Dream again. It’s too traumatizing. Black Swan is an amazing film thankfully I can watch multiple times 😂
Seriously - I saw Requiem for a Dream in the theater it still haunts me to this day.
Wow... Just wow. This analysis gave me goosebumps. If I had the financial means, I would donate to this channel. It's a gold mine of insight, and it has helped me understand my own womanhood and issues with it, too. Happy new year 🎉
So happy you were able to get it uploaded!!
This was so well done and thorough! Thank you for this!
Movies like these become so much deeper to me once I watch ppl like u go through it in so much detail
This was fantastic! I love this movie and have watched it so many times but you pointed out so many things I hadn't noticed or realized and actually brought to light so many reasons why I like it so much. Thank you!
Bravo! Another spot-on analysis; very well done!
I LOVE the long video! This was such a great analysis!!
Wow, you’ve outdone yourself with this video. Thank you so much for making it ❤
I love all the work you put into your videos. All the research you do is very impressive. I have watched every single one and resonate with them deeply. Keep up the great work and I wish you the best with your TH-cam channel!
thank you for this ive been thinking this for ever now im finally confirmed in my belief and this is the only video essay that articulates this perfectly
Wow🤩💜this is phenomenally well said, and the quotes added so much to each topic.
I’ve been looking for more creators who make “video essay” type videos from a femme and/or afab perspective so I’m overjoyed to have found this video and your channel💜💜💜
This was one of the best video essays of Black Swan I’ve ever seen! You pointed some things I didn’t notice before and I’ve watched the movie several times. Great video 🎉
I think that the bleeding toe could also represent Ninas inner self in some way, The baby pink ballet shoes being discarded, leaving the injured toe bare.
I wish I could thumbs up this a hundred times. It was so beautifully satisfying to listen to someone outline everything I've ever thought about this movie, esp how it relates to femininity. I love this movie & have seen it many times, and I will always argue that it's not "about" insanity or perfectionism, as if those are optional and abnormal, but how being female in our world IS self-torture and madness. Bravo!!!!
i haven't finished the video yet but a triumph. insightful. beautiful. thank you for your constant lovely work.
Incredible work, thank you! Brava 👏