Sean and Liam go through and make a tier list on both the Minas Tirith warriors and Heroes. Instagram: last_alliance_o... Music: Life's alright Musician: Silicon Estate
I got given the LOTR SBG Return of the King set as a kid many years ago. It came with Orcs, Warriors of Minas Tirith and a few pieces of scenery. Ever since then the men of Gondor have been my favourite. I haven’t bought any or played since the new rebrand. Hmmm maybe I should get back in to it.
I'm making a new MT and Fiefdoms 800 points list themed around defence of Minas Tirith. I have Gandalf, Imrahil, beregond and a captain with a bunch of warriors.
Looking forward to watching this with a growing sense of frustration at you guys being wrong whilst also realising my opinions may be why I lose with Gondor a lot
46:46 ok I gotta pause right there. Fountain Court Guard are better than Citadel Guard, no question. D7 is SO much better than D5. Do you guys have any idea how nice it is to chuck one or two at Glorfindel and watch that elf lord struggle? There are generally so many S4 units in the game, D7 (especially without being dependent on shieldwall) is a lifesaver!
There was definitely abit of contention between Sean.R and Liam on this one. Sean.R leaning towards the fountain court guard and Liam towards the Citidel Guard. you are not wrong natural D7 in a world of avg S3-4 is absolutely amazing.Tho both had valid points and it comes down to what a player values more, defence or numbers aswell as what suits their play style. Both players have had their success with their respective choices. Which is what is amazing about our game. Anything can be made competitive (except ruffian, I will die on that hill) Both the Citidel Guard and fountain court guard are amazing and would easily slip in to any gondor force thus ranking them both A tier.
You guys should go balls to the wall and do a tier list of all factions (could split it into good and evil or just do all of them). I'd look forward to the 5 hour video.
I almost totally agree with your rankings and really liked the format. However, I don't understand why a regular warrior of MT is so much better than a FCG. Of course they are great value for their price but built in D7 and bodyguard are awesome for the front line and for holding objectives.
Thanks mate! Numbers and points values mainly, you can fit more WoMT in an army than FCG and the only thing you really lose out on is bodyguard and fight value if you play your lines correctly, with the Minas Tirith army bonus you're not too worried about units running in the first place either. FCG are fantastic but for every 3 you could get 4 warriors which really adds up over a large army
I'm currently using 'Nature's Organics Frequent Use Wild Berry Shampoo 500mL' it set me back just shy of $2. Tho I have noticed more hair falling out then normal so I may need to steer clear and by pass this as a recommendation as a long use shampoo. 10/10 for travel purposes. For a long term use shampoo and my go to, I do recommend any 'Glow Lab' products that suits your needs tho it does come in at a whopping $18 for 300mL. -Sean.R
You're sleeping on Irolas. BIG TIME. For 10 points more than a captain, you get F5, Bodyguard, heroic defense. Yes, you lose a point of D, even 2 if shield walling, but I'd argue his ability to shield and still hit a model, F5 and heroic D make him harder to kill than a captain. Irolas and Madril are the best 2 marchers in the army IMO, just depending on if it's a tournament pack with lots of maelstrom/ recon (bring Madril) or assassination/fog of war (Irolas) He's up there with Madril IMO. But Madril is only great in 4 out of 18 scenarios.
Fair points, maybe he deserved A tier, though there's still plenty of Gondor heroes we'd choose over him. Plus there's almost no time where we ever know a scenario in advance here in QLD least of all in a tournament setting, that would kinda ruin the fun in our opinion! -Liam
@@NoobsandMen That's very different! I run the events in my local area, and though I've got a 750pt league coming up where the 5 scenarios are random, I generally put the missions in pools of equal sizes, of similar missions, and we roll randomly to determine which mission from each pool goes in the players pack. Though for some tournaments I just chose. We have a 750 pt league coming up soon and they're going to be randomly drawn missions after armies are submitted. bigger forces means it's easier to have a well rounded army, but in lower points I think having missions on the players pack is nice. But diversity makes the hobby strong! Love your work.
I think the ranking is too harsh on Elessar - sure, he's a lot of points, but Minas Tirith has a wounding issue especially against D6+ armies, so the fact that he's giving you reliable chomping, free Heroic March/Combats/Strike/Defense, and far more resilient than the ranger version? It's a clear A, even for the cost. Boromir is good, but he runs out of Might eventually, especially since you have to choose between better wounding power (lance) and support abilities (banner). Boromir blunts WAAAAAAY too easily against D7+ armies, whereas Elessar is always going to kill 2-3 people a turn.
Fair points for sure, though a huge issue with Elessar is that he'll be your leader in any army you take him in so sure you can send him in to hit troops really hard but one bad turn and he's mostly on his own and getting trapped and wounded or killed, losing you leader VPs. Where as with Boz, either configuration, he doesn't have to be your leader, you can have Denny or Faz toward the back of your line while Boz goes in and chops up or he sits in the line providing massive bonuses with his banner. In our mind Boz provides similar or better bonuses to the army for a cheaper package without those drawbacks
aragorn in c just feels wrong. hes high A at least. he still gives a banner. he is helping his army with heroic moves if needed and does have heroic resolve to help against magic. you are able to ally in army of the dead if you wish and giving undead F 4 from Fountain gaurds or rangers with spears helps them win more fights. aragorn can take out the more threaten troops on your opponents. or can even tie them up with using defence if your fighting things like a balrog or Sauron. aragorn can potentually be much more of a support hero as boromir but just not as good as what he can do.
You might be right, though we think that much like Elassar and GtW, Damrod has a place to be used, such as a Ranger of Ithillien LL or even just as a cheap hero to bulk out some unit numbers. Better than Pippin anyway hahaha
Excellent tier list! If there's one thing I disagree on, it's probably Elessar in C tier. Been playing him a ton in the past year, and almost every single game he's the MVP. Heroic March/Heroic Move for the entire game gives even an all-infantry list the edge in mobility or objective scenarios. Magic is tougher, but D7 3W 3F makes him one of the toughest heroes in the game, and most magic that people bring can't kill him outright. They're slapping the Transfix on something that is still a 6" banner in the middle of your line and continues to call or countercall a Heroic Move every turn they need to. This is doubly important since magic can't be used (except by the LL that shall not be named XD) while engaged in combat, so the odds of you tagging their caster or at least zoning them out increases as the game goes on and they keep taking casualties. This leaves us with a couple scenarios I most often see. First is Elessar being on no Will but completely healthy (probably has some Might left too, since he's been Transfixed all game), his army in tatters, and absolutely nothing my opponent has being remotely able to deal with him in the late game. Even casters get caught eventually, since no Might is left to keep them safe from a Heroic Move, and the lightsaber of doom slaps them down. The other scenario is there isn't anything to shut down Elessar, at which point he puts on a clinic and murders everything, and everything he doesn't murder is less and less able to deal with him as the game goes on. Fate gets peeled off, Might gets used bit by bit on Heroic Moves, and all the while Elessar just keeps going and remains exactly as threatening as he was on turn 1. Even if he himself is in tatters, something like W1 and F0, peeling that last wound off of him ain't easy when your tools aren't doing so hot as well. The third scenario is where I bring Lady of Light (that depressingly common yet necessary band-aid to actually stand a chance against Angmar), in which case I end the game having suffered little to no damage from either shooting or magic and Elessar being basically unstoppable. As a side note, Elessar is *ridiculously* solid as a Yellow Alliance into a faction that needs Might and a 6" banner... which happens to be most of them. Recently tried him out with Old Dain and all Iron Hills Dwarves at 555pts, and was pleasantly surprised. Happy hunting!
Fair enough points mate, though I still feel he's too expensive for the list when you can get a veeery similar and in some ways better leader out of Boz with Banner, that fight value increase is just so valuable in a list with solid troop options. Sure Boz won't kill as much than Elessar but he'll prevent your troops from dying by allowing them to win far more fights than they would normally. One of Elassars biggest weaknesses is his army dying around him. He can do all the damage he wants but if the game ends and you opponent has their objectives then it doesn't matter. On the the Lady of Light point, I really dislike making lists of yellow alliances that make little to no theme sense. Just taking a big thing for power and competitive sake especially in lists they don't belong in, really rubs me the wrong way. Its why you'll never see a red alliance around here! -Liam
@@NoobsandMen Yeah, I included Lady of Light at the very end because I'm not fond of her that way either. She's literally just there for Angmar/Black Riders/Vanquishers; otherwise Aragorn/Big Bozz and every other big centerpiece hero are just gonna get deleted. Friendly games where "normal" levels of magic are expected, I don't include her. I've had a blast playing Elessar/Gandalf the White at 750-800 in the past, but that multiplies the "costs too much" issue to absurd levels. It's not about to win any tournaments. The theme is much more palatable, though, and it's the only other way to get Fortify Spirit. As for Big Bozz being better, 100%. He's in S Tier, I have NO issues with his placement. The amount of synergy he has with Minas Tirith is ridiculous, and that only increases when you look into a Fiefdoms alliance if you're feeling spicy. I'm more thinking Elessar in B Tier rather than C Tier personally; more viable than many give him credit for, perhaps, still not the meta pick. Doomed to be perpetually overshadowed by Boromir. Thanks for the reply, keep doing what you're doing!
I don't see how aragorn or Gandalf fit the C tier while Beregond and the knight are b and the king A. While Beregond and the knight are decent for their points, you don't really see people play them if other picks are available. Aragorn and Gandalf are extremely expensive, but offer a lot, even if they don't make up for their points : Gandalf can neutralize both magic and ranged threats while aragorn can push forward the army with March or even use those heroics that are not usually worth a point of might. Also, doesn't the king of men prevents you from playing any other named heroes? I think you valued certain profiles a bit too much in a vacuum
Hey mate, these lists aren't based off of what other people take/what lists we see on the table, though even if it were, here in Aus we actually get a lot more Knights and Beregonds than Elessars and Gandalf's. These are just our opinions based on points, profiles, and what we've seen/played of each model and what we'd have in our lists.
@@NoobsandMen that's very interesting. I've always found fascinating how the meta can be so different in the same game. Gandalf and aragorn are expensive, but if you know you are going to face a lot of magic/big stuff and bows Gandalf does wonders. In a big format it's very hard for him to not have utility
You aren't wrong, Gandalf and Aragorn do have a place in the faction for sure, but only at quite high points values. Personally, I wouldn't take Gandalf below 800 odd points and due to the rule of not being able to take Aragorn with Boz or Denny, I'd pick Boz and Denny any day of the week.
Very nice and funny video. Funfact from germany, faramir is here a meme and for us on of the worst figures in the game for his points. He has to be in the D tier in germany :D
Not sure it's fair to say Boz is 3 tiers better when he costs 25 points less than aragorn when they're both fully kitted (and they should mostly always be fully kitted) has a considerably harder time wounding models and while 6 is a lot, aragorn has an infinite might supply. 25 points for what is I think most people would agree a better unit is not worth 3 tiers imo. Also important to remember with Boz' banner, if he's on horse the range is extended even further due to the larger base. I'm not convinced there's a scenario where he's better on foot than on horse.
Boz brings so much more to the table than Aragorn does. Sure Aragorn can kill more easily, but making your whole army one higher fight value and being able to tie fights with elves with the right models is much much better than one model killing a little more, winning more fights is better in the end. Boz on foot gives his banner and fight value in the thick of it where it's needed, on horse you run the risk of having him too far away from where you want him even with the extra half inch range. Plus with 6 might, in most times games you won't need much more than that. -Liam
@@NoobsandMen they're all fair points, I'm still just unconvinced there's 3 tiers between them. Firstly, Aragorn gets march which Boz doesn't and is a heroic critical for positioning, additionally the free point of might a turn makes back Boz' might in 3 turns including the 3 at base. Aragorn is a hero of legend while Boz is valour which can matter at various points levels. Wounding all models on 4s doesn't make Aragorn a troop killer in my mind either, he's a hero sniper and a chaffe killer, equally as likely to wound the Balrog as a regular orc. The extra fight from Boz banner is definitely fantastic but it does come with a 40 point banner that makes a lance unusable. Boz has considerably less killing power in a hero and frankly if you're taking Boz as a primary support hero you could just take a fiefdoms list instead and save 100 points on other support heroes. I do agree that Boz is S tier most likely as the banner is truly one of the best wargear options in the game but I think Aragorn is getting stiffed a bit too much. Anyway, good chat, keep up the tier lists I really enjoy them! :)
Regarding húrin's tier, the discussion is pretty simple. Just compare him to faramir with full kit on horse for points costs. Húrin has better/comparable stats mostly, far better special rules, and costs less points than a kitted out faramir. By that logic alone he would always end up a tier higher than faramir in my mind.
Personally I find Hurin and Faramir incredibly comparable, Faz's Denny special rule is actually very useful if you play him right, auto pass courage all courage on a hero is incredibly useful and 2 extra will and an extra fate can make a huge difference, especially with a certain magic focused army running around. He's only 10 points extra to get him to similar stats (including +1's but only on the charge) and an extra 5 gets him to d7 which is fantastic against all the str4 around and he can get a more durable horse as well. Dont get me wrong Hurin is great, but Faz is versatile and can be put into almost any army configuration, they each have they're own strengths. -Liam
@@NoobsandMen I guess I just rate rules that directly affect VP's really high. That's more impactful than anything in my opinion. That's why you always take a banner even if you can only get a 3" one in a low fight army. It might not do much but it gives you VP's and your opponent something to chase after which let's you dictate the fight a bit more. Final point: you realise faramir with full kit is 20 points more expensive than húrin on a horse? I consider húrin to be better, but even if you make the argument that faramir is similarly good depending on scenario there's no way he's worth 20 points more. (or 15 on regular horse)
@@kevinvanravenswaaij4060 I see where you're coming from with the Leader VPs, though if you play smart with someone like Denathor you rarely concede those VPs unless you're getting nearly tabled and by that point, its pretty likely someone like Hurin would be dead anyway. I see your confusion, my "10pts" more was only giving Faz a regular horse, a shield and lance to get him to par stats with Hurin, the armoured horse and heavy armour, being 10 points more, are just more versatility. Again, not really saying either is better than the other, just that they're good for their own purposes. -Liam
Looking at Ingold's rule and sadly Boz or a Captain sat next to him would still have to back away as it is just for Gondor Warriors. Makes me a bit sad to be honest
I hate that I knew that it only affected troops and in the video said it also affects heros. Either way if only one model in that shield wall is backing away your still in a really good place.
Fcg are in my mind s tier I never leave home with them bodyguard d7 and f4 even at 500 points put 5 or 6 in the list they kept me in many games because they don't die. They they are my go to elite units. I only take citadel guards if I want S3 bows and need more bodyguard. Don't get my wrong citadel guards are stil a tier.
To be honest the only archer that comes near elessar after meeting the king of the dead is Legolas in the movies. Elessar could have used archers at the black gate but he doesn't so it's kinda movie true
put this knight of the white tower trash in D tier. No burly no good. There is (almost) no other hero that I like less (that being said like at least 50% of gondors heroes do not see play on my tables because the other options are obviously better). Also heroes with super situational special rules and otherwise unimpressive stats suffer the same issue in my book (looking at you cirion) and belong into the good old middle B tier in my opinion or maybe even c because they do not see the light of day. I would totally take Aragorn in my game before cirion or the knight of the white tower. That is if I am in the mood for the beatstick (not often but sometimes), the knight and cirion do not fill any roles that are not done better by other heroes.
A Captain level model with strike, fight 5, two handed might blow weapon? Knight belongs exactly where he is mate haha. Give him a little support and he can take down some real monsters. I've seen him take out a Balrog with a few mates. Also Cirion isn't where he is because of his special rule, it's more of a bonus than anything, he's a 3 might captain with strike, one of the best value strikers in the game! -Liam
@@NoobsandMen the problem for me is just, he does not bring anything to the table that I need in this army. there are just so many heroes I take before considering him. Not even close. Poor guy. Also you need to roll that 6 with the knight to beat the balrogs fight value :D sure, it can happen once in a lifetime but 9/10 times the balrog just smushes the knight with no effort x)
Nah man strike up with the knight, make sure there are other in the combat Then his fight value spread to the others. He is the ultimate monster killer but he needs backup to secure the 6s , yes there are others I'd take over him, hurin and ingold to name a few. But by God the knight is amazing. -sean
@@Jewus19 it's very very do able and the with the lack of might and no banner effect on the rog if it dosnt get that 6 well then GG baby. Tho if the rog wins fair enough that's a dead knight but most other heros that fail to win the fight are dead or nearly dead. -sean
A fellow Sean NOOOOOOOOOOOO. nah fair enough brother each to there own. I'd be pretty but hurt aswell if my favourite hero wasn't put in a high tier (Girion). But a tier list like this shows off the difference in play style, and list building preferences around the world.
Enjoyed this format, be fun to see Rohan next.
Certainly on the cards! We wanna do a lot of the major factions soon!
Really cool Video and discussion! I love rankings :)
Hope to See more of it in the Future ;)
Absolutely mate! Thanks for watching
Cool video! I would love to see this ranking for.. every faction! 😂 Good joob guys
Oh baby don't worry we have some more controversial tier list videos on the way
Thanks for the love
Great video 👌 although I have a different opinion about king Aragorn, but I think we have to solve this issue in the battlefield 😁
I've solved it on the battlefield a number of times 🤣🤣🤣
-Sean
Enjoyed that. Thanks
Interesting video chaps. Let’s dive in and take a look
Love it. Completely agree with hurin being S tier i used to run him and boromir mounted together they could both clean up a flank very quick
An incredibly scary combo for sure! Glad you liked the video mate!
I got given the LOTR SBG Return of the King set as a kid many years ago. It came with Orcs, Warriors of Minas Tirith and a few pieces of scenery. Ever since then the men of Gondor have been my favourite. I haven’t bought any or played since the new rebrand. Hmmm maybe I should get back in to it.
You absolutely should! It's such a fantastic system and Gondor are a very good faction to play and especially learn to play with.
-Liam
I'm making a new MT and Fiefdoms 800 points list themed around defence of Minas Tirith. I have Gandalf, Imrahil, beregond and a captain with a bunch of warriors.
Looking forward to watching this with a growing sense of frustration at you guys being wrong whilst also realising my opinions may be why I lose with Gondor a lot
Faramir is barely D tier
Hahaha thanks for watching anyway mate, we knew this would be the video that divides people!
46:46 ok I gotta pause right there. Fountain Court Guard are better than Citadel Guard, no question. D7 is SO much better than D5. Do you guys have any idea how nice it is to chuck one or two at Glorfindel and watch that elf lord struggle? There are generally so many S4 units in the game, D7 (especially without being dependent on shieldwall) is a lifesaver!
There was definitely abit of contention between Sean.R and Liam on this one.
Sean.R leaning towards the fountain court guard and Liam towards the Citidel Guard.
you are not wrong natural D7 in a world of avg S3-4 is absolutely amazing.Tho both had valid points and it comes down to what a player values more, defence or numbers aswell as what suits their play style. Both players have had their success with their respective choices. Which is what is amazing about our game. Anything can be made competitive (except ruffian, I will die on that hill)
Both the Citidel Guard and fountain court guard are amazing and would easily slip in to any gondor force thus ranking them both A tier.
I totally agree with dead Rabbid
Knights on top which are OK and fountain court guard Just in Second place.
Madril is also top Hero and Faramir worse
It would be nice to show the figure's profile while you talking about it :) great discussion!
Great Idea! we might try that for the next one
Pumping out the content!
Yeah we are just having so much fun making videos. Ideas are flowing.
@@NoobsandMen it’s showing! It’s fun to watch, looking forward to seeing more
Nice! Rohan next? 🤗
Next one wont quite be Rohan but they'll be soon for sure!
-Liam
You guys should go balls to the wall and do a tier list of all factions (could split it into good and evil or just do all of them). I'd look forward to the 5 hour video.
Be careful what you wish for mate.
5hours of me and Liam would surly drive any man insane
-Sean r
@@NoobsandMenBe feelin' like butter scraped over too much bread by the end of it, haha. I'm ready!
I almost totally agree with your rankings and really liked the format.
However, I don't understand why a regular warrior of MT is so much better than a FCG. Of course they are great value for their price but built in D7 and bodyguard are awesome for the front line and for holding objectives.
Thanks mate! Numbers and points values mainly, you can fit more WoMT in an army than FCG and the only thing you really lose out on is bodyguard and fight value if you play your lines correctly, with the Minas Tirith army bonus you're not too worried about units running in the first place either. FCG are fantastic but for every 3 you could get 4 warriors which really adds up over a large army
I want to know what shampoo Sean uses to get his hair silky smooth. But great review guys!!
I'm currently using 'Nature's Organics Frequent Use Wild Berry Shampoo 500mL' it set me back just shy of $2.
Tho I have noticed more hair falling out then normal so I may need to steer clear and by pass this as a recommendation as a long use shampoo. 10/10 for travel purposes.
For a long term use shampoo and my go to, I do recommend any 'Glow Lab' products that suits your needs tho it does come in at a whopping $18 for 300mL.
-Sean.R
You're sleeping on Irolas. BIG TIME. For 10 points more than a captain, you get F5, Bodyguard, heroic defense.
Yes, you lose a point of D, even 2 if shield walling, but I'd argue his ability to shield and still hit a model, F5 and heroic D make him harder to kill than a captain. Irolas and Madril are the best 2 marchers in the army IMO, just depending on if it's a tournament pack with lots of maelstrom/ recon (bring Madril) or assassination/fog of war (Irolas) He's up there with Madril IMO. But Madril is only great in 4 out of 18 scenarios.
Fair points, maybe he deserved A tier, though there's still plenty of Gondor heroes we'd choose over him. Plus there's almost no time where we ever know a scenario in advance here in QLD least of all in a tournament setting, that would kinda ruin the fun in our opinion!
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen That's very different! I run the events in my local area, and though I've got a 750pt league coming up where the 5 scenarios are random, I generally put the missions in pools of equal sizes, of similar missions, and we roll randomly to determine which mission from each pool goes in the players pack. Though for some tournaments I just chose.
We have a 750 pt league coming up soon and they're going to be randomly drawn missions after armies are submitted. bigger forces means it's easier to have a well rounded army, but in lower points I think having missions on the players pack is nice. But diversity makes the hobby strong! Love your work.
I think the ranking is too harsh on Elessar - sure, he's a lot of points, but Minas Tirith has a wounding issue especially against D6+ armies, so the fact that he's giving you reliable chomping, free Heroic March/Combats/Strike/Defense, and far more resilient than the ranger version? It's a clear A, even for the cost.
Boromir is good, but he runs out of Might eventually, especially since you have to choose between better wounding power (lance) and support abilities (banner). Boromir blunts WAAAAAAY too easily against D7+ armies, whereas Elessar is always going to kill 2-3 people a turn.
Fair points for sure, though a huge issue with Elessar is that he'll be your leader in any army you take him in so sure you can send him in to hit troops really hard but one bad turn and he's mostly on his own and getting trapped and wounded or killed, losing you leader VPs.
Where as with Boz, either configuration, he doesn't have to be your leader, you can have Denny or Faz toward the back of your line while Boz goes in and chops up or he sits in the line providing massive bonuses with his banner. In our mind Boz provides similar or better bonuses to the army for a cheaper package without those drawbacks
The only reason I take osgiliath veterans with bows is because the models look epic.
Thats a perfect reason to take em for sure mate
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen The army looking cool is more important than how competitive it is.
great stuff gents could you critic mordor please
It's on the cards for sure!
56:00 What do you think of the Iron Hills Balista? :)
Trust me, we'll have some words for that model one day...
aragorn in c just feels wrong. hes high A at least. he still gives a banner. he is helping his army with heroic moves if needed and does have heroic resolve to help against magic.
you are able to ally in army of the dead if you wish and giving undead F 4 from Fountain gaurds or rangers with spears helps them win more fights.
aragorn can take out the more threaten troops on your opponents. or can even tie them up with using defence if your fighting things like a balrog or Sauron.
aragorn can potentually be much more of a support hero as boromir but just not as good as what he can do.
he just suffers from a better cheaper profile being in the list, hes okay otherwise
-Liam
Damrod should go D Tier. I think Gandalf or Aragorn are anyhow playable while Damrod is not
You might be right, though we think that much like Elassar and GtW, Damrod has a place to be used, such as a Ranger of Ithillien LL or even just as a cheap hero to bulk out some unit numbers. Better than Pippin anyway hahaha
Excellent tier list! If there's one thing I disagree on, it's probably Elessar in C tier. Been playing him a ton in the past year, and almost every single game he's the MVP. Heroic March/Heroic Move for the entire game gives even an all-infantry list the edge in mobility or objective scenarios. Magic is tougher, but D7 3W 3F makes him one of the toughest heroes in the game, and most magic that people bring can't kill him outright. They're slapping the Transfix on something that is still a 6" banner in the middle of your line and continues to call or countercall a Heroic Move every turn they need to. This is doubly important since magic can't be used (except by the LL that shall not be named XD) while engaged in combat, so the odds of you tagging their caster or at least zoning them out increases as the game goes on and they keep taking casualties.
This leaves us with a couple scenarios I most often see. First is Elessar being on no Will but completely healthy (probably has some Might left too, since he's been Transfixed all game), his army in tatters, and absolutely nothing my opponent has being remotely able to deal with him in the late game. Even casters get caught eventually, since no Might is left to keep them safe from a Heroic Move, and the lightsaber of doom slaps them down. The other scenario is there isn't anything to shut down Elessar, at which point he puts on a clinic and murders everything, and everything he doesn't murder is less and less able to deal with him as the game goes on. Fate gets peeled off, Might gets used bit by bit on Heroic Moves, and all the while Elessar just keeps going and remains exactly as threatening as he was on turn 1. Even if he himself is in tatters, something like W1 and F0, peeling that last wound off of him ain't easy when your tools aren't doing so hot as well.
The third scenario is where I bring Lady of Light (that depressingly common yet necessary band-aid to actually stand a chance against Angmar), in which case I end the game having suffered little to no damage from either shooting or magic and Elessar being basically unstoppable. As a side note, Elessar is *ridiculously* solid as a Yellow Alliance into a faction that needs Might and a 6" banner... which happens to be most of them. Recently tried him out with Old Dain and all Iron Hills Dwarves at 555pts, and was pleasantly surprised.
Happy hunting!
Fair enough points mate, though I still feel he's too expensive for the list when you can get a veeery similar and in some ways better leader out of Boz with Banner, that fight value increase is just so valuable in a list with solid troop options. Sure Boz won't kill as much than Elessar but he'll prevent your troops from dying by allowing them to win far more fights than they would normally. One of Elassars biggest weaknesses is his army dying around him. He can do all the damage he wants but if the game ends and you opponent has their objectives then it doesn't matter.
On the the Lady of Light point, I really dislike making lists of yellow alliances that make little to no theme sense. Just taking a big thing for power and competitive sake especially in lists they don't belong in, really rubs me the wrong way. Its why you'll never see a red alliance around here!
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen Yeah, I included Lady of Light at the very end because I'm not fond of her that way either. She's literally just there for Angmar/Black Riders/Vanquishers; otherwise Aragorn/Big Bozz and every other big centerpiece hero are just gonna get deleted. Friendly games where "normal" levels of magic are expected, I don't include her. I've had a blast playing Elessar/Gandalf the White at 750-800 in the past, but that multiplies the "costs too much" issue to absurd levels. It's not about to win any tournaments. The theme is much more palatable, though, and it's the only other way to get Fortify Spirit.
As for Big Bozz being better, 100%. He's in S Tier, I have NO issues with his placement. The amount of synergy he has with Minas Tirith is ridiculous, and that only increases when you look into a Fiefdoms alliance if you're feeling spicy. I'm more thinking Elessar in B Tier rather than C Tier personally; more viable than many give him credit for, perhaps, still not the meta pick. Doomed to be perpetually overshadowed by Boromir.
Thanks for the reply, keep doing what you're doing!
I don't see how aragorn or Gandalf fit the C tier while Beregond and the knight are b and the king A.
While Beregond and the knight are decent for their points, you don't really see people play them if other picks are available. Aragorn and Gandalf are extremely expensive, but offer a lot, even if they don't make up for their points : Gandalf can neutralize both magic and ranged threats while aragorn can push forward the army with March or even use those heroics that are not usually worth a point of might.
Also, doesn't the king of men prevents you from playing any other named heroes?
I think you valued certain profiles a bit too much in a vacuum
Hey mate, these lists aren't based off of what other people take/what lists we see on the table, though even if it were, here in Aus we actually get a lot more Knights and Beregonds than Elessars and Gandalf's. These are just our opinions based on points, profiles, and what we've seen/played of each model and what we'd have in our lists.
@@NoobsandMen that's very interesting. I've always found fascinating how the meta can be so different in the same game.
Gandalf and aragorn are expensive, but if you know you are going to face a lot of magic/big stuff and bows Gandalf does wonders. In a big format it's very hard for him to not have utility
You aren't wrong, Gandalf and Aragorn do have a place in the faction for sure, but only at quite high points values. Personally, I wouldn't take Gandalf below 800 odd points and due to the rule of not being able to take Aragorn with Boz or Denny, I'd pick Boz and Denny any day of the week.
Very nice and funny video. Funfact from germany, faramir is here a meme and for us on of the worst figures in the game for his points. He has to be in the D tier in germany :D
Thats genuinely a fascinating take, but goes to show the difference in meta around the world's.
Not sure it's fair to say Boz is 3 tiers better when he costs 25 points less than aragorn when they're both fully kitted (and they should mostly always be fully kitted) has a considerably harder time wounding models and while 6 is a lot, aragorn has an infinite might supply. 25 points for what is I think most people would agree a better unit is not worth 3 tiers imo. Also important to remember with Boz' banner, if he's on horse the range is extended even further due to the larger base. I'm not convinced there's a scenario where he's better on foot than on horse.
Boz brings so much more to the table than Aragorn does. Sure Aragorn can kill more easily, but making your whole army one higher fight value and being able to tie fights with elves with the right models is much much better than one model killing a little more, winning more fights is better in the end.
Boz on foot gives his banner and fight value in the thick of it where it's needed, on horse you run the risk of having him too far away from where you want him even with the extra half inch range.
Plus with 6 might, in most times games you won't need much more than that.
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen they're all fair points, I'm still just unconvinced there's 3 tiers between them. Firstly, Aragorn gets march which Boz doesn't and is a heroic critical for positioning, additionally the free point of might a turn makes back Boz' might in 3 turns including the 3 at base. Aragorn is a hero of legend while Boz is valour which can matter at various points levels. Wounding all models on 4s doesn't make Aragorn a troop killer in my mind either, he's a hero sniper and a chaffe killer, equally as likely to wound the Balrog as a regular orc. The extra fight from Boz banner is definitely fantastic but it does come with a 40 point banner that makes a lance unusable. Boz has considerably less killing power in a hero and frankly if you're taking Boz as a primary support hero you could just take a fiefdoms list instead and save 100 points on other support heroes. I do agree that Boz is S tier most likely as the banner is truly one of the best wargear options in the game but I think Aragorn is getting stiffed a bit too much. Anyway, good chat, keep up the tier lists I really enjoy them! :)
Regarding húrin's tier, the discussion is pretty simple. Just compare him to faramir with full kit on horse for points costs. Húrin has better/comparable stats mostly, far better special rules, and costs less points than a kitted out faramir. By that logic alone he would always end up a tier higher than faramir in my mind.
Personally I find Hurin and Faramir incredibly comparable, Faz's Denny special rule is actually very useful if you play him right, auto pass courage all courage on a hero is incredibly useful and 2 extra will and an extra fate can make a huge difference, especially with a certain magic focused army running around. He's only 10 points extra to get him to similar stats (including +1's but only on the charge) and an extra 5 gets him to d7 which is fantastic against all the str4 around and he can get a more durable horse as well. Dont get me wrong Hurin is great, but Faz is versatile and can be put into almost any army configuration, they each have they're own strengths.
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen I guess I just rate rules that directly affect VP's really high. That's more impactful than anything in my opinion. That's why you always take a banner even if you can only get a 3" one in a low fight army. It might not do much but it gives you VP's and your opponent something to chase after which let's you dictate the fight a bit more. Final point: you realise faramir with full kit is 20 points more expensive than húrin on a horse? I consider húrin to be better, but even if you make the argument that faramir is similarly good depending on scenario there's no way he's worth 20 points more. (or 15 on regular horse)
@@kevinvanravenswaaij4060 I see where you're coming from with the Leader VPs, though if you play smart with someone like Denathor you rarely concede those VPs unless you're getting nearly tabled and by that point, its pretty likely someone like Hurin would be dead anyway.
I see your confusion, my "10pts" more was only giving Faz a regular horse, a shield and lance to get him to par stats with Hurin, the armoured horse and heavy armour, being 10 points more, are just more versatility.
Again, not really saying either is better than the other, just that they're good for their own purposes.
-Liam
Im going to have to dust off the old Gondor army now. Bozza sheild wall sounds class fun.
It genuinely is Sean used it to win a tourney last year and it is veeery hard to get through as our first batrep attests to!
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen I will defos check that out next
Really hope they can make osgiliath veterans better in the future
That would be great, tho sadly I can't see that happening unless another supplement is released with an osgiliath veterans legendary Legion.
-Sean
@@NoobsandMen Yeah :( Btw what are your rankings of Anbor and Mablung? I just bought them as well as Ingold and Hurin :)
In a normal Gondor army, personally they are c-d tier, just so many better options. If taken in the ithillian rangers LL A tier for sure.
-Sean
Looking at Ingold's rule and sadly Boz or a Captain sat next to him would still have to back away as it is just for Gondor Warriors. Makes me a bit sad to be honest
I hate that I knew that it only affected troops and in the video said it also affects heros. Either way if only one model in that shield wall is backing away your still in a really good place.
I'm curious if any of these have changed after a year
Honestly a video we might end up doing in the future because some have absolutely changed for sure
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen I'm looking to starting the game so this would be helpful to know where to start
Fcg are in my mind s tier I never leave home with them bodyguard d7 and f4 even at 500 points put 5 or 6 in the list they kept me in many games because they don't die. They they are my go to elite units. I only take citadel guards if I want S3 bows and need more bodyguard. Don't get my wrong citadel guards are stil a tier.
That's fair mate, it's mainly the points difference that makes it more even for me, those 2 points per model can really add up across the force!
-Liam
Elessar doesn't have Accuracy. Strider does, but he loses it when he becomes king for some reason.
Leaders lose sight of what's important sometimes...
Also I'd guess its because he doesnt have a bow anymore hahaha
To be honest the only archer that comes near elessar after meeting the king of the dead is Legolas in the movies. Elessar could have used archers at the black gate but he doesn't so it's kinda movie true
It is funny you say that Mordor siege bow is the only 'acceptable' siege weapon, when you gave Mordor catapult higher tier:)
Just because we don't think it should be in a skirmish game doesn't mean we think the catapult is bad stats wise, it's really stupidly good 😅
-Liam
Now I understand your thoughs:)
tier list? insta-sub x'D
Another one out in the next few days aswell mate
put this knight of the white tower trash in D tier. No burly no good. There is (almost) no other hero that I like less (that being said like at least 50% of gondors heroes do not see play on my tables because the other options are obviously better). Also heroes with super situational special rules and otherwise unimpressive stats suffer the same issue in my book (looking at you cirion) and belong into the good old middle B tier in my opinion or maybe even c because they do not see the light of day. I would totally take Aragorn in my game before cirion or the knight of the white tower. That is if I am in the mood for the beatstick (not often but sometimes), the knight and cirion do not fill any roles that are not done better by other heroes.
A Captain level model with strike, fight 5, two handed might blow weapon? Knight belongs exactly where he is mate haha. Give him a little support and he can take down some real monsters. I've seen him take out a Balrog with a few mates.
Also Cirion isn't where he is because of his special rule, it's more of a bonus than anything, he's a 3 might captain with strike, one of the best value strikers in the game!
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen the problem for me is just, he does not bring anything to the table that I need in this army. there are just so many heroes I take before considering him. Not even close. Poor guy. Also you need to roll that 6 with the knight to beat the balrogs fight value :D sure, it can happen once in a lifetime but 9/10 times the balrog just smushes the knight with no effort x)
Nah man strike up with the knight, make sure there are other in the combat Then his fight value spread to the others.
He is the ultimate monster killer but he needs backup to secure the 6s , yes there are others I'd take over him, hurin and ingold to name a few. But by God the knight is amazing.
-sean
@@NoobsandMen yeah i know. Balrog is F10, the knight f5 so you need to Roll a 5 to tie and a 6 to beat the balrogs F10.
@@Jewus19 it's very very do able and the with the lack of might and no banner effect on the rog if it dosnt get that 6 well then GG baby.
Tho if the rog wins fair enough that's a dead knight but most other heros that fail to win the fight are dead or nearly dead.
-sean
Aragorn in C tier? Completely unwatchable
A fellow Sean NOOOOOOOOOOOO.
nah fair enough brother each to there own. I'd be pretty but hurt aswell if my favourite hero wasn't put in a high tier (Girion).
But a tier list like this shows off the difference in play style, and list building preferences around the world.