Sean and Liam are back at it with a totally factual and in no way opinion based, Tier list. so strap in for the ride if your life. Instagram: last_alliance_o...
Hi lads! Great content as always, love the banter, keep it up! As a mono Isengard enjoyer I would like to come to the rescue of some underappreciated models from the list for the eventual tier list revision. 1. The Feral Uruk-hai is bad, no question about it; but I think it has a place in the list, somewhere in C tier. Giving it a pick bumps it up to 14 points, equal to 2 Dunlending Warriors with no upgrades, with more courage and a better Fight value, as well as becoming the only Fight 4 warrior model in the army list with multiple attacks and able to piercing strike with a weapon swap. The Berserker cannot do this since the Berserker Blade is not a normal sword and does not appear in the list of swappable weapons. In this configuration the Feral becomes more deadly than the Berserker against odd defense models since it does not have to reduce its duel rolls by two handing; it is even better if properly supported. From experience, I once ran 9 Ferals with picks in a 500 points list for the memes, and they performed way better than I expected. That said I still think it is an over costed model, with poor stats, niche applications and still is all around worse than a Berserker; but it does have a place in the list, just not a very good one. 2. The Dunlending Warrior with 2 handed axe deserves more love; strength 5 thx to piercing strike + 1 to wound is juicy, for only 8 points that is solid and within the list there are a lot of ways to make it work with synergies. For the points difference still viable compared to the Hurscal 3. Frida + Hurscals can definitely work outside the legion, giving you a great anti-cav spear support line for regular Isengard. Wounding on 4s against most mounts and rerolling can really mess with your opponent.
crossbow warrior are just insane. its not just that they S4 bows. its the fact that they can simply cause your opponet to avoid them like the plague and that means you are in control of the battle field and thats invaluable.
"Corsair reaver conversions" killed me 🤣 good list lads. Snaga has some really cool niche interactions with their special rule. It really throws your opponent off when you call the move and still have lads to counter charge and things like that. Absolutely agree with crebain too. Could almost have a class above S for them the amount of games I've seen them win on their own
Yeah his special rule is definitely tricky, I still don't think it warrants him being in anything but an ugluks scouts list overall tho, you have 100 better options in Isengard proper. Everyone seems to raving about the Crebain, might have to finally give them a go! -Liam
Yeah the crebain are outrageously good. I don't know how I got the idea but I did have 8-10 reavers made up by my mate albert using ferals and boy were they amazing. Snaga and his rule just dosnt do it for us. I'll take him in a higher points but even then I'd prefer a scout cpt. -Sean
In honesty, I really like the way Huscarls are designed and costed. At 10pts you'd have a full huscarl back line, and Dunland would be another spear supported F4 army. As it is, you will still always take them in the Dunland LL, but they add their own little bit of tactics and give the faction some unique flavour. I'm a bit fan of conditional fight value buffs in general.
Here's probably my most controversial statement as an Isengard general. Against a field of opponents who can actually play the game competently, Grima is EASY B tier. First of all, any wizard with offensive magic reks him. You can't deploy him in the enemy army, because he'll just get destroyed first turn, and you can't deploy him where the action is gonna happen in your army for the same reason. So he's useless against Istari, Witch king and wraiths, sauron and necro, Kardush ect ect. Secondly, He's also poor against quick armies. This includes M8 and woodland creature armies who can lose him in the brush. Then, after these considerations, in most missions where the 2 armies don't deploy aggressively, he's still a slave to priority. He has no might, so if your opponent wins priority, they'll charge him with just 1 model (no need to trap) and move 6+ inches away. If they win priority a second time, he's gone. Essentially in missions where you're gonna move 3+ times prior to combat, if you lose 2 or more of the priorities, then for the cost of your opponents cheapest dude, Grima is hamstrung. The horse alleviates this somewhat, as does effective Grima deployment (you can sometimes use the 6 inches grace you get to put him closer to the center of the board, or deploy him on the opposite side of a wall or forest) but he's so far from an auto include imo. I play Sarmuman in my armies above 600pts most of the time, and rarely take him.
You shouldn't deploy him with your opponents army so often, I actually find he's much more useful deployed in my force, I can get him where he needs to be much easier and he just sits in the back lines causing my opponent all kinds of trouble. He should only be deployed in the opponent's army in 24 deploy scenario and armies that don't have magic or slow moving armies if he's got a horse. -Liam
@@NoobsandMen Opens him up to WAY better deployment it's true. but if they have decent bows, fliers or warmachines it opens him up to exciting new ways to die.
Absolutely but honestly you just have to play to that, have some fly protection if they have fliers, give him cover from bow fire, it's the same as any other model you want to protect -Liam
I wonder if the Dunland cap having 2 Will was a typo? I mean, every other captain in the game has the same 2/1/1 spread. It's Kings that have different spread. Strange
Just discovered you’re channel, after finally delving into my 1st love of Tolkien. Always did warhammer but had a good 10/15 year gap off wargaming so missed a lot of middle earth. Well I’ve purchased the rulebook & lotr army book & bought the Isengard & Rohan box starter sets. Got a few at my club getting into it also with my mate getting the big new box set with Mordor & Miras tirith so should be a lot fun. These lists are really helpful to a noob player so thanks for the tips & the banter also 👍🏻.
Mate it's awesome to have you join the hobby, it's an absolute blast of time. And y'all made the right choice those battle host boxes are great value when starting the game. Hope you and your group enjoy it as much as we do -Sean
Everytime I watch one of your tier list videos I realise I'm missing some models in my army and end up buying them off ebay ^^ sure you're not sponsored? haha
Yeah for what ever reason we did forget them. But 100% marauders are worth it every time. I personally love giving them axes and going ham with them. I would have put them S Tier -Sean
Loved the vid. It was awesome to see your opinions as I’m collecting Isengard at the moment. As I’m new to the game, I’m not sure what the tournament scene is like and what is excepted regarding converted models. I’m big on the painting and converting side of the hobby but don’t want to cross lines or make none legal models. Does anyone have any info to share with me it would be appreciated.
Over here in the land of Aus we all love a converted model showing up on the table. As long as it can still represent the model and the profile you will find no back lash at all. So get converting mate we love to see it. -Sean
Hi guys, thank you so much for all your entertaining and helpful videos! :) I am fairly new to mesbg and currently building up an Isengard list. Using your tierlist as a guideline seems smart 😂 Could you maybe roughly outline a list you would recommend at 600p including those juicy s-tier models (so especially Gorulf, Vrasku and crebain)? What would you recommend as third hero? Thank you very much and all the best from Germany! :)
my 600 point isengard is usually Gorulf, Vrasku and Mauhur, though you could also throw in a regular captain instead if you want more tin cans than maruaders, also make Vrasku your leader, much less likely to concede leader vps if they have to go through half your army just to get to him. Hope this is helpful mate! -Liam
@@NoobsandMen Hi Liam, thank you so much for answer! My concern with this list at the moment are how to deal with terror causers. Would you say that having a healthy amount of crossbows is enough to deal with that? Cheers and all the best!
Yeah I'd usually just sit back in a good position and let them come to me, shooting them all the way, if you're in a good enough position terror should matter too much, Uruks are still courage 3 which is about the average to be able to charge if need be -Liam
In Isengard? Rubbish. Never wanted to or needed to take normal orcs in an Isengard army. Sure you can boost numbers if you do but they don't have the Isengard keyword so they don't synergise very well with the army imo. They're literally only good in Ugluks scouts legion, which we never actually take into account for the pure faction tier lists -Liam
Since when you can give uruk scouts an axe? They have only sword and shield in their profiles, no info that they can swap for an axe. Was there any FAQ I missed?
Nah mate, any warrior model or unnamed hero can weapon swap to a certain list of weapons (axes, staffs, hammers etc.) for Warriors it costs an extra point on top of their points, for heroes its 5 points. Its in the rule book in the weapons and wargear section -Liam
Extra plus for drummer. I was playing 400 pts Lurtz's LL versus dwarves. My base 8 inch movement archers were running away with drummer 5.5 inches away from them around whole table and still we're able to shoot. Movement is crazy with scuts, love it!
Orc warriors with spears in Isengard army were pretty essential before some stupid rules were invented and Isengard player could use orcs with spears as 2nd line of support and uruks with pikes in 3rd. I see no reason why this was nerfed because there are no valid explanation for it being banned. This was also the way Isengard could pop their numbers up a little bit, now the army is very often outnumbered, also by many good armies. With current rules set orcs are pretty useless to even consider them as part of army. Having option to take scouts with 8' or LONGER range you can now even drop warg riders, so basically there can be no orcs in this army whatsoever. They just should remove them from Isengard, as there is no point of having them in it rn.
Pike support is overrated mate. Best way to look at Pikes is they are spears that can sometimes offer an extra attack, I'd never pike block with Isengard. Orcs have their place in the army as spear support if you wanna bump numbers but I'd always take Pikes as spears instead for the F4 S4. So yes orcs on their own are pretty useless in the army. Warg riders on the other hand are amazing for Isengard. Yes you can get scouts with 8' move but wargs getting the extra attack on the charge and knockdown is what keeps their place in the list, a few sprinkled in will does gods work. -Sean
@@NoobsandMen Agree on both, pike block is now garbage, before nerf it was strong (no traps because 2 rows could go back after losing fight), trapping after losing fight is stupid. Arent uruks supposed to be trained in fighting with pikes? Easterlings do not have this issue. The modification they could use for pike fights could be: if you use orc spears as 2nd row, your front row warrior is trapped after losing fight. If your 2nd and 3rd rows are uruk pikes you can go back with not being trapped. And regarding wargs totally agree!
The dundeling horseman. Kill the rider, you lose the unit. Wargs only miss out the reroll 1s to wound. So only 16% of being used. If a Warg rider dies, you still have the warg to use. Same stats points too. So you get effectively 2 units to fight with vs 1.
Only if they pass a c2 courage check, which honestly, pass maybe 15% of the time. Worse if they have any harbinger at all. Dunland cav also get the benefit of being str4 on the rider, meaning they can pierce to str5 if you really need it -Liam
I like how you just completely forgot about orc warriors for this list. I think spear orcs are easily B tier at least, despite not benefitting from the army bonus. With Ugluk in the force, they make great sacrifice fodder to auto-pass break tests (particularly relevant if you bring allies, like the WK on Fellbeast), and they're 4pts cheaper than pikemen, which can really help bolster your force numbers so you can bring in more shield Uruks and crossbows or get another hero for might. They're especially good when you bring allies, and they make good banner carriers, saving you 3-4 points compared to an Uruk warrior. Shield/Bow/2h weapon Orcs are probably D tier though, just because there's no good reason to bring them over shield/crossbow uruks. I think the same sort of argument could be made for pushing warg riders up a tier. They're the only cavalry available in the list, and they're cheap, with similar value for the price to the Dunlending Horsemen, given the Wargs can stick around and fight even if the rider is killed, and their ability to take thrown weapons.
Fairly certain we mentioned that we'd neglected to put orcs on the warriors tier list, maybe that got cut in the edit haha. Regardless they all belong in D tier. For starters, losing a defence, a strength, a fight, a courage and the army bonus on a model is no where near worth the 4 less points over a pike or especially on a banner, I'll take a d6 banner over a d4/d5 one everyday of the week, that 4-5 points just isn't worth it. Also in these tier lists we're never factoring in LL's or Allies into any of our decisions, LL's because we'll be doing those separately, and allies because it makes the video and discussion far too complicated if we had to factor in literally every evil list or in other videos, good list, as well as thinking of the list as a whole for every model, we'd be here for 7 years. I believe I mentioned the warg rider in another comment, I dont think throwing weapons on a 5+ or even a 6+ is worth a strength 4 with piercing strike cav for a point less. Yes the warg will stick around once in a blue moon but when you're needing 8 or even 9 on two dice to make sure that happens, it's just very unlikely especially when as an opponent the squishier but stronger warg would likely be my target anyway. Granted maybe they belong in b tier, but I'd still take dunland cav over them. Hope this clears up some things mate! -Liam
@@NoobsandMen Eh, Spear orcs are good. Their disadvantages are generally easily offset by the lower cost, as their lower courage, FV, and Defense often don't matter at all compared to a pikeman (they're supporting models, so they only charge if necessary; the defense only matters if they're being hit, and S3 is very common; and the Fv is offset by the Uruks they're supporting being F4), and the strength is irrelevant vs D5 and D7, which are both fairly common. Mixing in the S3 makes the army more efficient in some of its weaker match ups where there's a lot of D5 and D7, without hurting its already good match ups too significantly, given the increased model count. The army bonus is similarly often irrelevant (ex: if you have Saruman or Ugluk, you can auto-pass the checks with your other heroes, and you can elect to take the tests even if the army bonus allows you not to, per the FAQ). And none of the Dunland models have the Isengard keyword except oathmaker, and I'd generally consider the Dunland models (aside from the heroes) to be worse than Orcs. If anything, spear orcs would be better in Isengard than in Mordor if not for the army bonus, because Uruk warriors have F4, S4, and D6 (whereas mordor has to pick between F4 or S4 with their D6), and competitive Mordor lists often mix in regular spear orcs with their morannons.
My thoughts on heroes. Ugluck is B in normal Isengard, at best. Probably c. Saruman and Thryden already have 12 inch stand fasts. Your army bonus means you don't break til you're 2-3 models from quartered anyway. He's just a captain with strike who's worse than Vrasku or Mahur 95% of the time. Thryden in normal Isengard is B. I love him, but he's expensive. I'd love to see a 3rd wound and C5. Some say 3 attacks, but that makes him a MACHINE on a horse so I'm cool with the 2 attacks. I also rate Frida higher than the oath maker. But I'd put them both in the same tier. Finally, the Shaman is c or less. For warriors, I think you're harsh on the old feral boi. His profile, in a vacuum, is fine. He's never taken because berserkers are so so good for the extra 2pts, not because his profile is innately bad. And finally, Dunland cav are worse than a warg rider with throwing spear. For 1 pt, you get a throwing spear, lose a C, gain the ability to keep your warg around post rider death. They're not WAY worse, and in a cav heavy army a mix of both is probably best, but I'd put both in B tier.
The only reason I appreciate Ugluks standfast is that it's a really cheap standfast that also hits heroes, in that regard it's better than Thrydans. I love Thrydan, I'll take him over Lurtz 9 times out of 10 and he'll do better overall in almost every way, might blow is a cracker of a special rule Frida is okay, I'll take fearless 5pt models over wounding horses anyway Thats exactly our point about the feral mate, he just doesn't work in an Isengard list, his profile is okay but I'll spend 2 points on a berserker everytime. If they gave them 8inch move or let you take them in an LL or something they might actually be useful but as it stands they hold 0 place in the game as a whole as part of Isengard Also gotta disagree on the Dunland Cav, it's the axe that puts them up for me, str5 Cav is bonkers. Sure maybe once in a blue moon you'll have a Warg pass the courage test to stick around but it's so rare. Maybe they both belong on the same tier but I'll take Dunland Cav everytime Thanks as always for watching a commenting mate! Absolutely love comments like this! -Liam
@@NoobsandMen I think your counter points are fair, and I 100% agree that if ferals were in Lurtzs scouts or something, they'd see unironic play. I just think it was a bit harsh to put some dudes who are pretty fairly comparable to morgul stalkers and Dragon cult bois (better than cult bois imo, worse than stalkers) in a horrific tier. Blackshields deserve it cos they'd be crap in any army. If ferals were, lets say, a human choice in fiefdoms from some tiny kingdom of jacked berserker dudes, they'd be played. And Fiefdoms are a tight army. I think competitivley, Lurtz is better than Thrydog. Thrydog however does synergize well with Saruman, thus I take him reasonably often. Also, before the new Dunland stuff landed I was very proud to own the foot and mounted model. You roll an 8+ 41% of the time. Just under half. The warg annoyance factor is real. Frida is a house when facing certain lists. Her ability to torment mid tier heroes on horses is huge. She's like an elf captain in a way. The F5 is wicked, and she's also a house when supporting heroes such as Lurtz or Gorulf in a tricky spot. I've done some silly things with her heroic defense too. I think there are missions and opponents where I think Dunlendings are good, and the Oathmaker makes them even better in those spots. But there's plenty of times where I'd rather take ANYTHING else. I find the Isengard list doesn't struggle for troops who can tie up scary things (huscarls, berserkers, ferals, captains) and these things naturally find their way into my lists on merit. I don't feel like I need to jam a bad hero with bad heroics and his bad mates into my list to fill that role, BUT, everyone who does raves about them so maybe I'm missing out!
@@judgejudyandexecutioner.5223 That's exactly the problem tho mate, I agree their stat line isnt horrible, (tho I'd take a dragon acylote over them, 2 points less and is better in my book.) But the problem lies with the fact they have literally no place in the list at all. Easily earns them their own tier. Problem with Lurtz is 99% of the time you take him he's going to be your leader. Outside the LL Thrydan is rarely me leader which lets me be so much more aggressive with him than i could be with Lurtz. Plus he's mountable, so good. Fair enough on that stat, sad thing is Harbinger or some form of courage debuff is more common these days so c1 needing a 9 is *much* more rough. and two, my dice hate me hahaha I've had a huge amount of luck with my little 5pt ratty peasants, they're great for tying up monsters and other terror causing models, even something like Sauron, being able to force him to combat off a 5pt model is a beautiful sight to see. Frida is just a little more situational, if you're up against a list with no cav her special rule gives you nothing, granted she can fight better than oathmaker, but i already have plenty of combat heroes in my Isengard lists. Give the lad a go! using his might for moves and his little peasants to tie down big heroes, its a great time! -Liam
@@NoobsandMen Might have to give it a go! Peasant boys lets get some! Only final thing I'll say on Lurtz vs Thryden is that I don't feel the need to make Lurtz my leader. They cost similar points so I'm happy to interchange them (but the list needs tweaking depending on which you go with) I'm happy to take either with Saruman. TBH, if Saruman isn't your general then you're likely playing a LL. While I think non Sarmuman Isengard soup lists are fine, I don't think there is any combination of mid tier heroes that's better than taking a scouts, Dunland or Helms Deep LL.
My first army was Isengard, and they're my 'main' army. If you get anything wrong ima banish you from my realm like Grima banished Eomer.
Mate if we got anything wrong I'm going to banish myself, they're my main army too!
-Liam
Hi lads! Great content as always, love the banter, keep it up!
As a mono Isengard enjoyer I would like to come to the rescue of some underappreciated models from the list for the eventual tier list revision.
1. The Feral Uruk-hai is bad, no question about it; but I think it has a place in the list, somewhere in C tier. Giving it a pick bumps it up to 14 points, equal to 2 Dunlending Warriors with no upgrades, with more courage and a better Fight value, as well as becoming the only Fight 4 warrior model in the army list with multiple attacks and able to piercing strike with a weapon swap. The Berserker cannot do this since the Berserker Blade is not a normal sword and does not appear in the list of swappable weapons.
In this configuration the Feral becomes more deadly than the Berserker against odd defense models since it does not have to reduce its duel rolls by two handing; it is even better if properly supported. From experience, I once ran 9 Ferals with picks in a 500 points list for the memes, and they performed way better than I expected.
That said I still think it is an over costed model, with poor stats, niche applications and still is all around worse than a Berserker; but it does have a place in the list, just not a very good one.
2. The Dunlending Warrior with 2 handed axe deserves more love; strength 5 thx to piercing strike + 1 to wound is juicy, for only 8 points that is solid and within the list there are a lot of ways to make it work with synergies. For the points difference still viable compared to the Hurscal
3. Frida + Hurscals can definitely work outside the legion, giving you a great anti-cav spear support line for regular Isengard. Wounding on 4s against most mounts and rerolling can really mess with your opponent.
crossbow warrior are just insane. its not just that they S4 bows. its the fact that they can simply cause your opponet to avoid them like the plague and that means you are in control of the battle field and thats invaluable.
They're very good threat, plus the ability to still shoot into combat once lines clash is so helpful
-Liam
Whats my plain for this evening? Film? Going out with friends? No guys, i was waiting for this video 😁
Mattttttte your much to kinds.
Super motivating to hear this.
-Sean
Another amazingly fun video. Keep it up boys!
Wow it took really longer than Mordor xD
But it was a Joy to watch! Looking forward to the next one :)
I just love talking about Isengard so much hahaha! Glad you enjoyed it still
-Liam
I took the same path to Isengard - started with Khazad-Dum and then jumped into Saruman’s sweet embrace. Great stuff!
"Corsair reaver conversions" killed me 🤣 good list lads. Snaga has some really cool niche interactions with their special rule. It really throws your opponent off when you call the move and still have lads to counter charge and things like that.
Absolutely agree with crebain too. Could almost have a class above S for them the amount of games I've seen them win on their own
Yeah his special rule is definitely tricky, I still don't think it warrants him being in anything but an ugluks scouts list overall tho, you have 100 better options in Isengard proper.
Everyone seems to raving about the Crebain, might have to finally give them a go!
-Liam
Yeah the crebain are outrageously good.
I don't know how I got the idea but I did have 8-10 reavers made up by my mate albert using ferals and boy were they amazing.
Snaga and his rule just dosnt do it for us. I'll take him in a higher points but even then I'd prefer a scout cpt.
-Sean
In honesty, I really like the way Huscarls are designed and costed. At 10pts you'd have a full huscarl back line, and Dunland would be another spear supported F4 army. As it is, you will still always take them in the Dunland LL, but they add their own little bit of tactics and give the faction some unique flavour. I'm a bit fan of conditional fight value buffs in general.
Here's probably my most controversial statement as an Isengard general.
Against a field of opponents who can actually play the game competently, Grima is EASY B tier.
First of all, any wizard with offensive magic reks him. You can't deploy him in the enemy army, because he'll just get destroyed first turn, and you can't deploy him where the action is gonna happen in your army for the same reason. So he's useless against Istari, Witch king and wraiths, sauron and necro, Kardush ect ect.
Secondly, He's also poor against quick armies. This includes M8 and woodland creature armies who can lose him in the brush.
Then, after these considerations, in most missions where the 2 armies don't deploy aggressively, he's still a slave to priority. He has no might, so if your opponent wins priority, they'll charge him with just 1 model (no need to trap) and move 6+ inches away. If they win priority a second time, he's gone. Essentially in missions where you're gonna move 3+ times prior to combat, if you lose 2 or more of the priorities, then for the cost of your opponents cheapest dude, Grima is hamstrung. The horse alleviates this somewhat, as does effective Grima deployment (you can sometimes use the 6 inches grace you get to put him closer to the center of the board, or deploy him on the opposite side of a wall or forest) but he's so far from an auto include imo. I play Sarmuman in my armies above 600pts most of the time, and rarely take him.
You shouldn't deploy him with your opponents army so often, I actually find he's much more useful deployed in my force, I can get him where he needs to be much easier and he just sits in the back lines causing my opponent all kinds of trouble. He should only be deployed in the opponent's army in 24 deploy scenario and armies that don't have magic or slow moving armies if he's got a horse.
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen Opens him up to WAY better deployment it's true. but if they have decent bows, fliers or warmachines it opens him up to exciting new ways to die.
Absolutely but honestly you just have to play to that, have some fly protection if they have fliers, give him cover from bow fire, it's the same as any other model you want to protect
-Liam
I wonder if the Dunland cap having 2 Will was a typo? I mean, every other captain in the game has the same 2/1/1 spread. It's Kings that have different spread. Strange
Honestly probably, still find it weird its never been corrected tho, I guess they just don't care haha
Liam
@@NoobsandMen that is not an typo, in the old version he had even 3 Will. That was wired
Great review for beginners. Wish Grishnak was here.
Yeah sadly the dude isn't in the Isengard list for whatever reason....
-Liam
Just discovered you’re channel, after finally delving into my 1st love of Tolkien. Always did warhammer but had a good 10/15 year gap off wargaming so missed a lot of middle earth. Well I’ve purchased the rulebook & lotr army book & bought the Isengard & Rohan box starter sets. Got a few at my club getting into it also with my mate getting the big new box set with Mordor & Miras tirith so should be a lot fun. These lists are really helpful to a noob player so thanks for the tips & the banter also 👍🏻.
Mate it's awesome to have you join the hobby, it's an absolute blast of time. And y'all made the right choice those battle host boxes are great value when starting the game.
Hope you and your group enjoy it as much as we do
-Sean
Everytime I watch one of your tier list videos I realise I'm missing some models in my army and end up buying them off ebay ^^ sure you're not sponsored? haha
God I wish....
Didn’t mention Mauhurs Marauders. Are they good to take outside of the LL?
Short answer, yes.
Yeah for what ever reason we did forget them.
But 100% marauders are worth it every time.
I personally love giving them axes and going ham with them.
I would have put them S Tier
-Sean
Loved the vid. It was awesome to see your opinions as I’m collecting Isengard at the moment. As I’m new to the game, I’m not sure what the tournament scene is like and what is excepted regarding converted models. I’m big on the painting and converting side of the hobby but don’t want to cross lines or make none legal models.
Does anyone have any info to share with me it would be appreciated.
Over here in the land of Aus we all love a converted model showing up on the table. As long as it can still represent the model and the profile you will find no back lash at all. So get converting mate we love to see it.
-Sean
Hi guys, thank you so much for all your entertaining and helpful videos! :) I am fairly new to mesbg and currently building up an Isengard list. Using your tierlist as a guideline seems smart 😂 Could you maybe roughly outline a list you would recommend at 600p including those juicy s-tier models (so especially Gorulf, Vrasku and crebain)? What would you recommend as third hero? Thank you very much and all the best from Germany! :)
my 600 point isengard is usually Gorulf, Vrasku and Mauhur, though you could also throw in a regular captain instead if you want more tin cans than maruaders, also make Vrasku your leader, much less likely to concede leader vps if they have to go through half your army just to get to him. Hope this is helpful mate!
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen Hi Liam, thank you so much for answer! My concern with this list at the moment are how to deal with terror causers. Would you say that having a healthy amount of crossbows is enough to deal with that? Cheers and all the best!
Yeah I'd usually just sit back in a good position and let them come to me, shooting them all the way, if you're in a good enough position terror should matter too much, Uruks are still courage 3 which is about the average to be able to charge if need be
-Liam
What do you think about normal orcs with spears?
In Isengard? Rubbish. Never wanted to or needed to take normal orcs in an Isengard army. Sure you can boost numbers if you do but they don't have the Isengard keyword so they don't synergise very well with the army imo. They're literally only good in Ugluks scouts legion, which we never actually take into account for the pure faction tier lists
-Liam
Who is the new bracket model? I can’t place the chiselled abs
It's an Urukhai feral.
-sean
Its trash.
-Liam
Since when you can give uruk scouts an axe? They have only sword and shield in their profiles, no info that they can swap for an axe. Was there any FAQ I missed?
Nah mate, any warrior model or unnamed hero can weapon swap to a certain list of weapons (axes, staffs, hammers etc.) for Warriors it costs an extra point on top of their points, for heroes its 5 points. Its in the rule book in the weapons and wargear section
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen Oh wow. I did not know about that. S5 basic uruk troops just got interesting. Thanks you very much for explanation :)
Extra plus for drummer. I was playing 400 pts Lurtz's LL versus dwarves. My base 8 inch movement archers were running away with drummer 5.5 inches away from them around whole table and still we're able to shoot. Movement is crazy with scuts, love it!
I was thinking lurtz should have strnght 5 bow if he doesnt move
That could be interesting, would definitely make his shooting more threatening.
-Sean
Orc warriors with spears in Isengard army were pretty essential before some stupid rules were invented and Isengard player could use orcs with spears as 2nd line of support and uruks with pikes in 3rd. I see no reason why this was nerfed because there are no valid explanation for it being banned. This was also the way Isengard could pop their numbers up a little bit, now the army is very often outnumbered, also by many good armies. With current rules set orcs are pretty useless to even consider them as part of army. Having option to take scouts with 8' or LONGER range you can now even drop warg riders, so basically there can be no orcs in this army whatsoever. They just should remove them from Isengard, as there is no point of having them in it rn.
Pike support is overrated mate.
Best way to look at Pikes is they are spears that can sometimes offer an extra attack, I'd never pike block with Isengard. Orcs have their place in the army as spear support if you wanna bump numbers but I'd always take Pikes as spears instead for the F4 S4.
So yes orcs on their own are pretty useless in the army.
Warg riders on the other hand are amazing for Isengard. Yes you can get scouts with 8' move but wargs getting the extra attack on the charge and knockdown is what keeps their place in the list, a few sprinkled in will does gods work.
-Sean
@@NoobsandMen Agree on both, pike block is now garbage, before nerf it was strong (no traps because 2 rows could go back after losing fight), trapping after losing fight is stupid. Arent uruks supposed to be trained in fighting with pikes? Easterlings do not have this issue. The modification they could use for pike fights could be: if you use orc spears as 2nd row, your front row warrior is trapped after losing fight. If your 2nd and 3rd rows are uruk pikes you can go back with not being trapped.
And regarding wargs totally agree!
The above rule would actually perfectly reflect difference in uruks skill with this weapon in oposition to orc scum with spear xD
The dundeling horseman. Kill the rider, you lose the unit. Wargs only miss out the reroll 1s to wound. So only 16% of being used. If a Warg rider dies, you still have the warg to use. Same stats points too. So you get effectively 2 units to fight with vs 1.
Only if they pass a c2 courage check, which honestly, pass maybe 15% of the time. Worse if they have any harbinger at all.
Dunland cav also get the benefit of being str4 on the rider, meaning they can pierce to str5 if you really need it
-Liam
I like how you just completely forgot about orc warriors for this list. I think spear orcs are easily B tier at least, despite not benefitting from the army bonus. With Ugluk in the force, they make great sacrifice fodder to auto-pass break tests (particularly relevant if you bring allies, like the WK on Fellbeast), and they're 4pts cheaper than pikemen, which can really help bolster your force numbers so you can bring in more shield Uruks and crossbows or get another hero for might. They're especially good when you bring allies, and they make good banner carriers, saving you 3-4 points compared to an Uruk warrior.
Shield/Bow/2h weapon Orcs are probably D tier though, just because there's no good reason to bring them over shield/crossbow uruks.
I think the same sort of argument could be made for pushing warg riders up a tier. They're the only cavalry available in the list, and they're cheap, with similar value for the price to the Dunlending Horsemen, given the Wargs can stick around and fight even if the rider is killed, and their ability to take thrown weapons.
Fairly certain we mentioned that we'd neglected to put orcs on the warriors tier list, maybe that got cut in the edit haha. Regardless they all belong in D tier. For starters, losing a defence, a strength, a fight, a courage and the army bonus on a model is no where near worth the 4 less points over a pike or especially on a banner, I'll take a d6 banner over a d4/d5 one everyday of the week, that 4-5 points just isn't worth it.
Also in these tier lists we're never factoring in LL's or Allies into any of our decisions, LL's because we'll be doing those separately, and allies because it makes the video and discussion far too complicated if we had to factor in literally every evil list or in other videos, good list, as well as thinking of the list as a whole for every model, we'd be here for 7 years.
I believe I mentioned the warg rider in another comment, I dont think throwing weapons on a 5+ or even a 6+ is worth a strength 4 with piercing strike cav for a point less. Yes the warg will stick around once in a blue moon but when you're needing 8 or even 9 on two dice to make sure that happens, it's just very unlikely especially when as an opponent the squishier but stronger warg would likely be my target anyway. Granted maybe they belong in b tier, but I'd still take dunland cav over them.
Hope this clears up some things mate!
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen Eh, Spear orcs are good. Their disadvantages are generally easily offset by the lower cost, as their lower courage, FV, and Defense often don't matter at all compared to a pikeman (they're supporting models, so they only charge if necessary; the defense only matters if they're being hit, and S3 is very common; and the Fv is offset by the Uruks they're supporting being F4), and the strength is irrelevant vs D5 and D7, which are both fairly common.
Mixing in the S3 makes the army more efficient in some of its weaker match ups where there's a lot of D5 and D7, without hurting its already good match ups too significantly, given the increased model count.
The army bonus is similarly often irrelevant (ex: if you have Saruman or Ugluk, you can auto-pass the checks with your other heroes, and you can elect to take the tests even if the army bonus allows you not to, per the FAQ). And none of the Dunland models have the Isengard keyword except oathmaker, and I'd generally consider the Dunland models (aside from the heroes) to be worse than Orcs.
If anything, spear orcs would be better in Isengard than in Mordor if not for the army bonus, because Uruk warriors have F4, S4, and D6 (whereas mordor has to pick between F4 or S4 with their D6), and competitive Mordor lists often mix in regular spear orcs with their morannons.
My thoughts on heroes.
Ugluck is B in normal Isengard, at best. Probably c. Saruman and Thryden already have 12 inch stand fasts. Your army bonus means you don't break til you're 2-3 models from quartered anyway. He's just a captain with strike who's worse than Vrasku or Mahur 95% of the time.
Thryden in normal Isengard is B. I love him, but he's expensive. I'd love to see a 3rd wound and C5. Some say 3 attacks, but that makes him a MACHINE on a horse so I'm cool with the 2 attacks.
I also rate Frida higher than the oath maker. But I'd put them both in the same tier.
Finally, the Shaman is c or less.
For warriors, I think you're harsh on the old feral boi. His profile, in a vacuum, is fine. He's never taken because berserkers are so so good for the extra 2pts, not because his profile is innately bad.
And finally, Dunland cav are worse than a warg rider with throwing spear. For 1 pt, you get a throwing spear, lose a C, gain the ability to keep your warg around post rider death. They're not WAY worse, and in a cav heavy army a mix of both is probably best, but I'd put both in B tier.
Love the content guys, it's a good list over all, keep that good shit coming.
The only reason I appreciate Ugluks standfast is that it's a really cheap standfast that also hits heroes, in that regard it's better than Thrydans.
I love Thrydan, I'll take him over Lurtz 9 times out of 10 and he'll do better overall in almost every way, might blow is a cracker of a special rule
Frida is okay, I'll take fearless 5pt models over wounding horses anyway
Thats exactly our point about the feral mate, he just doesn't work in an Isengard list, his profile is okay but I'll spend 2 points on a berserker everytime. If they gave them 8inch move or let you take them in an LL or something they might actually be useful but as it stands they hold 0 place in the game as a whole as part of Isengard
Also gotta disagree on the Dunland Cav, it's the axe that puts them up for me, str5 Cav is bonkers. Sure maybe once in a blue moon you'll have a Warg pass the courage test to stick around but it's so rare. Maybe they both belong on the same tier but I'll take Dunland Cav everytime
Thanks as always for watching a commenting mate! Absolutely love comments like this!
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen I think your counter points are fair, and I 100% agree that if ferals were in Lurtzs scouts or something, they'd see unironic play. I just think it was a bit harsh to put some dudes who are pretty fairly comparable to morgul stalkers and Dragon cult bois (better than cult bois imo, worse than stalkers) in a horrific tier. Blackshields deserve it cos they'd be crap in any army. If ferals were, lets say, a human choice in fiefdoms from some tiny kingdom of jacked berserker dudes, they'd be played. And Fiefdoms are a tight army.
I think competitivley, Lurtz is better than Thrydog. Thrydog however does synergize well with Saruman, thus I take him reasonably often. Also, before the new Dunland stuff landed I was very proud to own the foot and mounted model.
You roll an 8+ 41% of the time. Just under half. The warg annoyance factor is real.
Frida is a house when facing certain lists. Her ability to torment mid tier heroes on horses is huge. She's like an elf captain in a way. The F5 is wicked, and she's also a house when supporting heroes such as Lurtz or Gorulf in a tricky spot. I've done some silly things with her heroic defense too. I think there are missions and opponents where I think Dunlendings are good, and the Oathmaker makes them even better in those spots. But there's plenty of times where I'd rather take ANYTHING else. I find the Isengard list doesn't struggle for troops who can tie up scary things (huscarls, berserkers, ferals, captains) and these things naturally find their way into my lists on merit. I don't feel like I need to jam a bad hero with bad heroics and his bad mates into my list to fill that role, BUT, everyone who does raves about them so maybe I'm missing out!
@@judgejudyandexecutioner.5223 That's exactly the problem tho mate, I agree their stat line isnt horrible, (tho I'd take a dragon acylote over them, 2 points less and is better in my book.) But the problem lies with the fact they have literally no place in the list at all. Easily earns them their own tier.
Problem with Lurtz is 99% of the time you take him he's going to be your leader. Outside the LL Thrydan is rarely me leader which lets me be so much more aggressive with him than i could be with Lurtz. Plus he's mountable, so good.
Fair enough on that stat, sad thing is Harbinger or some form of courage debuff is more common these days so c1 needing a 9 is *much* more rough. and two, my dice hate me hahaha
I've had a huge amount of luck with my little 5pt ratty peasants, they're great for tying up monsters and other terror causing models, even something like Sauron, being able to force him to combat off a 5pt model is a beautiful sight to see. Frida is just a little more situational, if you're up against a list with no cav her special rule gives you nothing, granted she can fight better than oathmaker, but i already have plenty of combat heroes in my Isengard lists. Give the lad a go! using his might for moves and his little peasants to tie down big heroes, its a great time!
-Liam
@@NoobsandMen Might have to give it a go! Peasant boys lets get some!
Only final thing I'll say on Lurtz vs Thryden is that I don't feel the need to make Lurtz my leader. They cost similar points so I'm happy to interchange them (but the list needs tweaking depending on which you go with) I'm happy to take either with Saruman. TBH, if Saruman isn't your general then you're likely playing a LL. While I think non Sarmuman Isengard soup lists are fine, I don't think there is any combination of mid tier heroes that's better than taking a scouts, Dunland or Helms Deep LL.
What's og
Original gangster
-Sean
Not enough golf themed clothing for my liking.. dislike