Seriously, Thank God, that this didn’t develop into something much more for either party. I hope both can acknowledge each others lessons and let it rest.
@johnmorganjr769 I'm far better trained than 99% of most police, and live in a County with no police. The Sheriff and community here rely on its armed citizens to keep criminal activity to a minimum.
We don't know all the factors in this situation. If security told them not to enter private property [ church grounds] & saw a firearm on the person, not verified as an official repo or official repossession order- then aggressively chose entering the property, is a tresspass & appears as theft. DA will eventually dismiss charges. Repo didn’t have legal right to take vehicle he was trying to take anyways 🙄repo dude was to call police, if there was interference, that would've also exposed Wrong Vehicle!
@@newhorizon1355 Safety guy failed to work with the repo to make sue it was the right care and failing to know the law regarding repos. Also, did you note the tow rig on the truck? Bad guys don't have a twenty thousand dollar snatcher on their ride. The safety guy is totally at fault.
@rcstl8815 I have personally seen criminals with nicer rigs than that. I passed a guy while on patrol that had a car jacked up. I didn't initially stop because his truck and trailer were super clean and expensive. Something clicked in my head that something was off. By the time I was able to turn around (driving a Tahoe in an urban area) he was gone along with all 4 tires and the catalytic converter. Shame on me but it was his setup that made not stop initially.
@rcstl8815 Unfortunately that's not how thieves or innocent ppl are verified- just by the nice machinery on tow trucks. Stolen nice tow trucks occur same with stolen nice vehicles- daily in this country. No security officers have zero obligation to assist or even verify a repossession order. If a repossession is hindered by anyone, law enforcement should be notified & the repo should have a judge's order called a Writ of Replevin. Which gives Sheriff Deputies the power to arrest anyone hindering the repossession. Again, the car in this incident was NOT even the vehicle of interest. That's like arresting an innocent bystander- the repo driver could've been arrested in this incident. Just like Bounty Hunters are arrested for Wrongful Arrest when they make the same mistake of a suspect.
If it's not even the right vehicle it equates to attempted grand theft auto. Is use of force permitted? Probably not. With one caveat, if the guard can articulate that he believed that his life was in imminent threat he can pull that weapon and fire if necessary. As for the tow company, I would not be surprised if he is running an illegal operation. Grab cars at random, impound and charge an extortion extortionate of money to get the car back. And because the law doesn't protect people from illegal towing in most cities it's considered a civil mater.
There needs to be a good way to protect against overly aggressive repo people especially at church. There should be a way we can check their paper work before they repo.
Why? This is a civil matter between an individual and whoever holds the title of the car. Unless it was an actual church-owned vehicle, the church has no involvement in that transaction. Much more concerning is an obvious overreach of authority by the security officer, who has now put the church into a situation with potential liability. Plus, the repo guy probably won't be too excited to learn more about the love of Christ after this.
If the repo man was taking the wrong car, isn't that theft? At the very lease I would sue that man and company if it was my car with a free and clear title. Due process is being violated by that repo maniac!
First, in the state of Texas, one may use deadly force to protect property, though the application of that is very nuanced. Frankly, I would have cooperated with the repo-man to make sure he had the write car. Make, Model, Color, License Plate, VIN. Had this individual worked with the repo man this entire scenario may have ended differently. It is not my job to protect someone else's vehicle from lawful repossession. We even changed our name from security team to safety team -- to better capture our purpose.
"You can't use force to protect property." 🤔 Do police do so? What about private armed security? What about armored car drivers? The marijuana dispensaries have guys outside that look like Navy Seals- armed to the teeth.
This avoidable, unfortunate incident happened an hour from my home. This was manageable and de-escalatable. Property crimes do not justify lethal force!
Every church security team should know “Use of force” laws in their state, most PDs will have a unit like community policing that can assist in setting up legal boundaries for security teams.
Repossession is a CIVIL LEGAL process. Using force is NOT an option. I am a retired LEO, I have taught use of force to safety teams and citizenry for 30+ years.. Basically, what I have run into is people FEEL things should be one way or another. They may not agree with the laws (based on feeleings) BUT. I've encountered "church safety teams" led by church pastors who have NO BUSINESS leading the Safety Team, no real training, no real experience in law, or Liability training or experience, no experience in security, it's an issue of a sense of control and only using their friends and acquaintances as a safety team. It is astounding, really, and now the church leaders are liable, AND this safety team guy, having no clue what he is really doing, is now in deep doo doo. This is an illegal act on several levels. Whomever is leading and/or training this team is doing a very POOR job, Hell, they too are now liable. The repo folks have every legal right to repo, the car isn't "owned" by the "owner" who isn't making payments it is "owned' by the bank (or whomever). They can take it if they like. If ya ask em for documents to they are legally obligated to show you. The best approach is to get the owner to come and ask for the documents. If the repo guy isnt taking the right car, then he is liable (another conversation about liability) BUT holding him at gun point is a criminal act. The repo guy isnt intentionally committing a crime of theft he believes he is repoing a car. Now, yes, he has obligations to do it right BUT, that too is a civil issue and a scope of employment thing making him liable to the owner of the wrong car. Gun point is not the way to handle this. If the repo guy actually did check VIN and it was wrong and he tried taking it anyway, Calling the repo company would be an appropriate response, not a gun. This guy is a liability nightmare along with his leadership and trainers.
I also am Retired from 2 agencies. The repo man was told he could not enter private property-the church's grounds. He tresspassed, and the security guard can prevent theft. Which is what actually occurred--- yes it did-the repo dude, if he was 0ne, was taking some elses car!-- theft. Plus, The aggressive actions of the repo driver, can easily be articulated as an aggressive act. U as a cop, should know the repo is to Call Law Enforcement. And if there is a public disturbance many states tell the repo they can not take vehicle at that time. In Florida, cops have repo put vehicle down from tow truck, depending on public disturbance
Moreover, the one whom bought the vehicle is the legal.owner - same as a house! The lender is a lien holder securing the loan. Lots of great considerations found in many of the comments. Also, If I were late on a payment I would be on the phone with the lender attempting to make arrangements. Certainly would not want to have it repo at Church or anywhere else! I would be trapped and would have to try and get a ride, walk or skip rope to get home, not to mention the public embarrassment - which I would get over lol @newhorizon1355
In many states it's lawful to use or threaten to use lethal force to prevent the theft of property. I don't know about Michigan, but if tgat were the case then I think this comes down to whether or not it was reasonable for the security guard to believe that the truck was being stolen. If he knew it was a repo, then even that doesn't seem to work.
(similar to makeb.539s post lower) There needs to be a good synergy between post in parking lot with core crew inside church and good response/documentation practices. This is how it would go down based on my experience doing security at a public place where I did bike patrol: 1. Observation - check for odd behaviour, official tags and certificates on vehicle 2. Reason to Trespass called a TPA (give warning - verbally or written) 3. Record & Store - Record in accessible "Store n Retrieve" System > repo and bounty documentation if they are collaborative > document CCW present 4. Upon re-entry second verbal warning or sequester to security office ( and in some cases where its like a bounty hunter or repo indicating police will be called if further breach) 5. Physically beside the persons movement but vehicle makes that difficult Draw if record indicates suspicious person has CCW. 6. Upon resistance call police, track suspect at distance or verbally state the person is under citizens arrrest * * in this case we had a rerired police on site who authorized arrest and was the same culture as suspec
I disagree. Property is an extension of your life and I absolutely think criminals should be the ones at risk for their crimes and not the honest person trying to protect their possessions.
Having been in security for nearly 20 years, I have dealt with Repo's over the years. They are not considered an invited guest on private property (trespassing and they almost always are) and when they have shown up on my property specially after hours (they love doing that) they are told to return during business hours and contact management to get authorization for the tow or come back with a police escort. From the description that the repo went for the wrong vehicle, it could have been an attempted snatch and grab, or it really was an honest mistake (yes, there are repo's that will use forged documentation) so the reason why I take the above actions. In Florida that pickup truck would be illegal due to the lack of certain markings that are required by law, so my weapon would be at the ready. If the S/O believed that the repo was armed I can see as to why he took the actions he did. Repos have been known to go out armed due to the nature of their work. Now that I do work a church security detail, my response to the situation on the first encounter would have been tell the guy he needs to see the staff to get permission. He will either do it or leave. If the repo leaves, notify church staff of the problem and if they did return for another attempt: step one call 911 (unless it was ok by the management at the time of the first reporting) step two alert the staff step three be prepared for the fight.
Exactly, the security guy should have asked the repo guy to confirm he had the correct car, and if they are telling this or any person to leave and they return, call the police, give trespass warning. I'm sure that if the police had been called they would "likely" have figured out that this was the wrong vehicle, and maybe interrupted a car theft ring operating as legitimate repo business, but that is something for the police not the guard who is now focused on something other than protecting the flock.
In general, I agree: church or not, going to my sidearm is *usually* a last resort. If I was knowing that I'd be stopping a felony in progress, including (what appeared to be grand theft auto), I'd be ready to draw; my state allows us to brandish in order to deter/prevent/stop a crime in progress. If the repo man was known to have been previously on the property, then the ENTIRE team should've been informed immediately. In that context, the repo man's reappearance should've been met with some response much more low-level than brandishing. Interesting point about teying to be welcoming to all in every situation- sometimes easier said than done, though!
Courts have ruled you can't shoot someone with a firearm over property. Unless of course that has to do with an act of immediate life saving. Texas Law has a loophole over this.
First thing, call the local Police department. Inform the tow truck operator that he is trespassing. You can use another vehicle to block the personal vehicle until the Police arrive. (There was no threat from what we see from the tow truck operator against the security guard) The real question here is by law, who does the private vehicle legally belong to at the time of the repossession. If the lending institution legally owns the vehicle at the time of repossession. It's their vehicle to do what they want. If the law considers the vehicle owner still the owner, then the tow truck needs to get permission from the church to come on the property. It is private property. The Church security guard, like so many people who carry firearms want to go to the firearm first. It is only a last resort to a life-threatening situation. why would you want to get yourself caught up in a private matter when the lending institution will ultimately get the vehicle anyway. The security guard may want to look into charging the tow truck driver with trespassing. when the tow truck operator first left and then came back may be a case for trespassing. But then every state has its own laws.
🔥BLAME !🔥 THIS IS A "DIRECT RESULT" OF A "CHRISTIAN WARRIOR" I KNOW OF ! THE TACTICAL TRAINING COARSE IS WHAT YOUR SEE'N !!! GOOD JOB KEITH ! I TOLD YA SO !
No one needs to pull weapon on material items....if they rob church, but don't hurt no one, let it go, money, cars, can be replaced, a life cannot. Unless that person is firing at unarmed or security, that's different. That was a big mistake.
So many differing opinions, about who may be right based on what state their thought process is referencing. State laws "defense of property" are different from state to state. Before you feel confident in whatever action you may take regarding your own property, check your state and local laws where you live.
“[The repo driver] was wrong. It wasn’t the right vehicle.” Sounds like the church security team member prevented a vehicle theft. Do you really think talking to this guy would have stopped him from stealing the car?
You're assessment of the situation is wrong. The security guard was authorized by the head of the church to protect the people and the property on church grounds. You admitted that the tow truck driver was actually repossessing the wrong car which makes that a theft, On top of that the repo driver's vehicle had no form of identifying markings or identification on it to make it seem like it was a legitimate Repossession. The security guard did his job and I commend him for it.
Taking the wrong car is theft, a repo man that tries to take the wrong car is not doing his job. Yeah there is a many innocent people, Americans thats rotting 6ft under right now for trying to use their verbal skills
The tow guy was not trying to have bible study he was taking a vehicle on PRIVATE PROPERTY. Didn't see any thing that said TOW TRUCK on the vehicle plus he could let the security guard know and called the police for assistance to get the RIGHT VEHICLE. It look like some random person(the devil lol)stealing a car.
Come on, man! The repo guy's check is in the parishioners car that they aren't paying for. Learn the repo laws. They are almost like bounty hunters. They'll be polite then sneak right back.
Tow truck driver going to a church to repo the wrong car? Sounds like attempted theft. Use of deadly force to stop the "repo", not allowed in FL.. Security shoulda blocked the tow driver with his own car and called the cops.
Whether it was the right car or wrong car, the security guard committed aggravated assault, at a minimum. The repo guy has a perfectly legal job to do. As John on the Active Self Protection channel says, Deescalate, Escape, and Avoid. The security guard did none of these and, rightfully, was charged.
Don't want to be a Monday morning quarterback, however the security individual should have stood in the front of the truck to prevent the repo individual from leaving church parking lot till the police arrived Then everything could be sorted out
1. Using words did not work in this case. 2. Call 911 when words do not work. 3. Let the police handle it. 4. If the security guy is charged, then the repo man should be charged with attempted grand theft auto if it was the wrong car. 5. If you don’t like anything I said well I want you to have a blessed day regardless.
The repo guy isn't committing a crime. He may screw up and be sued, yes....., BUT his intent is legal, not illegal, not a criminal act. See my other post, this is what I mean by people DO NOT understand the Criminal and Civil law world interaction. All LE is going to do is see documents and leave. They are NOT going to get involved in the CIVIL, legalities of this stuff. It is between owner and buyer, it is a contract issue not a LE issue.
Verbal judo is so under developed now if the car is getting ready to mow me down after the altercation that may be different use of force, but otherwise verbal judo the way to go
If you check out the original story, the repo man was trying to check the VIN when he was there the first time and security ran him off before he could finish. If he would have let him check the VIN, they both would have known it was the wrong vehicle! After police arrived, they checked the VIN and discovered it was different from the vehicle they were looking for!
Listen I am a retired Sergeant from a PD. We had multiple shootings ; I mean officer involved Shootings about 1/2 half fatal! Many I investigated! The security guard should have been arrested! I hv spoke to my Church multiple times and it’s ignored? Lately I hv pulled away from being involved in security! I hv in fact arrested security guards for doing this and even firing their weapons ! I am armed and ready to protect myself or others but no more of just wining it!
Stop the cap. A brinks security guard was killed despite having a gun in his hand, downward when armed robber attacked him. Law enforcement is trained to approach a vehicle, especially a tinted window vehicle, during a Felony stop- guns pointing toward suspects. Even that doesn't mean they WIN. The fact is the guard has no backup coming, like u did, so he has to be the Victor. Though he was wrong-- he has my respect for not gambling whether he WIN or not-- cause the winner is the o e who lives thru a gun battle 🤔
@@newhorizon1355 I thought he was charged and arrested ? In fact he was ? How is that going home ? How is that winning? Who is paying his legal fees ? It’s my understanding it’s not written in stone the church will? I think I would hv got a great description & called the Police? Went in and listened to the rest of the sermon ? But then again I hv nothing to prove to anyone ?
@zephyr1408 Charges can be dropped at anytime, especially with now public exposure. The fact the car he tried to take turned out to not be one repoing also is going to have a good defense lawer argument in court. If you are a ir ex Sgt u should know charges get tossed like non winning lotto tickets. Speaking of winning, wasn't talkn about winning a case, I was talkn about winning a gun battle by element of strategic approach- tactics swat uses.
Plenty of stupidity to go around. Firearms are deadly force. Use them as such in a legal, ethical, and moral manner. Property isn't usually a valid reason. If I'm going to the psgr side to get my kid out of the child seat n someone attempts to steal my vehicle, that's definitely morally just, n I'd personally opt to deal with any legal consequences. But that's incredibly rare n not the case here. In some places repo man isn't allowed on private property. Absolutely nowhere is it legal for a repo man to steal a car. They have documentation for that. So repo man, be sure you're getting the right vehicle, be sure you're legal to get it where it is. Right now the security guy is looking at brandishing or more likely ag assault. The repo guy should be looking at attempted theft trespassing, and possibly reckless driving. Again, preventable n stupid on all parts.
I can't say you are right or wrong. I'll have to think on this for awhile. No business has the right to come on private property and conduct their business without prior consent, that is the problem with the "government" they are breaking laws to create these laws. The law of this land is to stand up to tyranny. Yet my number one priority is the great commission.
@wilson4328 lol, property falls under scotus use of deadly force. You've swallowed the brainwashing of the last 30 years. U have a legal right to defend, with the use of deadly force, ur life, the life of someone else, or your property. Unfortunately, left wing states don't honor the last part. In Texas, a neighbor told by 911 operator not to go shoot two unarmed buglars- proved " Property" - doesn't even have to be yours!
Life, in general, is dangerous. Especially in Democrat run cities, like Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, and states like California and New York. Death can come at anytime for anyone. No one is immune. That is why we need Jesus Christ as our personal savior to save us from hell fire when we die, and we WILL DIE eventually.
Peter was protecting Jesus, Jesus himself told Pilate he could call legions of angels to come protect him. Sorry had to paint correct light of Biblical Event, since u took it way outta context of event.
Well, pulling a gun wasn’t warranted, he could’ve stood in front of the car and prevented him from taking it, but he should’ve called the police. If it’s private property and he said he wasn’t allowed on the property then the repo guy should’ve just left probably doesn’t have the legal right to be there if he was told to leave private property, but I’m not sure if that’s even the law in every state. But pulling the gun was a bit ridiculous.
The repo man has every right to do his job. The whole thing is utterly ridiculous and utterly wrong on the part of church security. It should have been, "Oh, you're here to repossess a car? OK, have at it, and have a nice day!" The fact that the guy got the wrong car is immaterial. And it likely had something to do with the security man giving him a hard time for no reason.
@@USMC6976 Only if the security guy knew it. And how would he know, unless he recognized the car and knew its owner well enough to know that it was paid for, or paid up current? No, I say that it is more likely totally immaterial, because repo business is repo business, and who would know the payment status of every church member's car loan? No one besides the bank. No; at most the security guy should have asked for ID, to make sure it was a legit repo business. No more. The fact that it was the wrong car would have been sorted out right quick, and NOT by church security who has no business in such things whatsoever.
@@omnivore2220 Nope, doesn't matter at all. The fact that it turned out to be true is all that is material. But the repo guy was told to leave and came back. That's criminal trespass. Repo man was wrong from start to finish.
Seriously, Thank God, that this didn’t develop into something much more for either party. I hope both can acknowledge each others lessons and let it rest.
In Missouri, all of your property.... even Acres... is the same as your home. The laws, prosecutors and juries here favor property owners.
Unless you are Sworn, leave the hardware at home. That's my current stance on that. I can do far more with my phone. 🇺🇸
@johnmorganjr769
I'm far better trained than 99% of most police, and live in a County with no police.
The Sheriff and community here rely on its armed citizens to keep criminal activity to a minimum.
He was told to leave them returned uninvited and wreckless driving and attempted theft of the wrong car....
We don't know all the factors in this situation. If security told them not to enter private property [ church grounds] & saw a firearm on the person, not verified as an official repo or official repossession order- then aggressively chose entering the property, is a tresspass & appears as theft. DA will eventually dismiss charges. Repo didn’t have legal right to take vehicle he was trying to take anyways 🙄repo dude was to call police, if there was interference, that would've also exposed Wrong Vehicle!
@@newhorizon1355 EXACTLY and thank you.
Let the court's decide this. The repo dude can be sued if they take the wrong car.
@@newhorizon1355 Safety guy failed to work with the repo to make sue it was the right care and failing to know the law regarding repos. Also, did you note the tow rig on the truck? Bad guys don't have a twenty thousand dollar snatcher on their ride. The safety guy is totally at fault.
@rcstl8815 I have personally seen criminals with nicer rigs than that. I passed a guy while on patrol that had a car jacked up. I didn't initially stop because his truck and trailer were super clean and expensive. Something clicked in my head that something was off. By the time I was able to turn around (driving a Tahoe in an urban area) he was gone along with all 4 tires and the catalytic converter. Shame on me but it was his setup that made not stop initially.
@rcstl8815 Unfortunately that's not how thieves or innocent ppl are verified- just by the nice machinery on tow trucks. Stolen nice tow trucks occur same with stolen nice vehicles- daily in this country. No security officers have zero obligation to assist or even verify a repossession order.
If a repossession is hindered by anyone, law enforcement should be notified & the repo should have a judge's order called a Writ of Replevin. Which gives Sheriff Deputies the power to arrest anyone hindering the repossession. Again, the car in this incident was NOT even the vehicle of interest. That's like arresting an innocent bystander- the repo driver could've been arrested in this incident. Just like Bounty Hunters are arrested for Wrongful Arrest when they make the same mistake of a suspect.
If it's not even the right vehicle it equates to attempted grand theft auto. Is use of force permitted? Probably not. With one caveat, if the guard can articulate that he believed that his life was in imminent threat he can pull that weapon and fire if necessary. As for the tow company, I would not be surprised if he is running an illegal operation. Grab cars at random, impound and charge an extortion extortionate of money to get the car back. And because the law doesn't protect people from illegal towing in most cities it's considered a civil mater.
There needs to be a good way to protect against overly aggressive repo people especially at church. There should be a way we can check their paper work before they repo.
Why? This is a civil matter between an individual and whoever holds the title of the car. Unless it was an actual church-owned vehicle, the church has no involvement in that transaction. Much more concerning is an obvious overreach of authority by the security officer, who has now put the church into a situation with potential liability. Plus, the repo guy probably won't be too excited to learn more about the love of Christ after this.
@@DavidLarson-qp1ujChurch property is sacred
Repo individuals need to be saved by the blood of Jesus, just like everyone else
@DavidLarson-qp1uj the repo man had the wrong car ..so he was actually stealing someone's car..
If the repo man was taking the wrong car, isn't that theft? At the very lease I would sue that man and company if it was my car with a free and clear title. Due process is being violated by that repo maniac!
Do you think the guy that drew down on the repo guy (who wasn't threatening him) knew that was the wrong car?
First, in the state of Texas, one may use deadly force to protect property, though the application of that is very nuanced. Frankly, I would have cooperated with the repo-man to make sure he had the write car. Make, Model, Color, License Plate, VIN. Had this individual worked with the repo man this entire scenario may have ended differently. It is not my job to protect someone else's vehicle from lawful repossession. We even changed our name from security team to safety team -- to better capture our purpose.
Is that to protect your property or anyone's property. The question is. At the time of that repossession, who legally owns the vehicle.
Under Texas law, you can only use deadly force to protect property only during nighttime. Texas Penal Code Section 9.42.
Thank you for your help with this matter. Keep on doing what you're doing to educate us .
"You can't use force to protect property." 🤔
Do police do so?
What about private armed security?
What about armored car drivers?
The marijuana dispensaries have guys outside that look like Navy Seals- armed to the teeth.
No team mates for support? No radio for assistance?
What state is this? If Texas it’s legal. The fact he is trying to steal a car is a huge problem. Try talking to someone stealing a car.
It was explained at least two or three times… Michigan. Smh
This avoidable, unfortunate incident happened an hour from my home. This was manageable and de-escalatable. Property crimes do not justify lethal force!
The security should has asked to see the paperwork.
Every church security team should know “Use of force” laws in their state, most PDs will have a unit like community policing that can assist in setting up legal boundaries for security teams.
I think you are wrong. Driving like that in a parking lot is fatally dangerous.
We really can't see, but by what we see in the video, there weren't a lot of people out there, so that might be a hard thing to sell to the court.
Repossession is a CIVIL LEGAL process. Using force is NOT an option. I am a retired LEO, I have taught use of force to safety teams and citizenry for 30+ years.. Basically, what I have run into is people FEEL things should be one way or another. They may not agree with the laws (based on feeleings) BUT. I've encountered "church safety teams" led by church pastors who have NO BUSINESS leading the Safety Team, no real training, no real experience in law, or Liability training or experience, no experience in security, it's an issue of a sense of control and only using their friends and acquaintances as a safety team. It is astounding, really, and now the church leaders are liable, AND this safety team guy, having no clue what he is really doing, is now in deep doo doo.
This is an illegal act on several levels. Whomever is leading and/or training this team is doing a very POOR job, Hell, they too are now liable.
The repo folks have every legal right to repo, the car isn't "owned" by the "owner" who isn't making payments it is "owned' by the bank (or whomever). They can take it if they like. If ya ask em for documents to they are legally obligated to show you. The best approach is to get the owner to come and ask for the documents.
If the repo guy isnt taking the right car, then he is liable (another conversation about liability) BUT holding him at gun point is a criminal act. The repo guy isnt intentionally committing a crime of theft he believes he is repoing a car. Now, yes, he has obligations to do it right BUT, that too is a civil issue and a scope of employment thing making him liable to the owner of the wrong car.
Gun point is not the way to handle this. If the repo guy actually did check VIN and it was wrong and he tried taking it anyway, Calling the repo company would be an appropriate response, not a gun.
This guy is a liability nightmare along with his leadership and trainers.
I also am Retired from 2 agencies. The repo man was told he could not enter private property-the church's grounds. He tresspassed, and the security guard can prevent theft. Which is what actually occurred--- yes it did-the repo dude, if he was 0ne, was taking some elses car!-- theft. Plus, The aggressive actions of the repo driver, can easily be articulated as an aggressive act. U as a cop, should know the repo is to Call Law Enforcement. And if there is a public disturbance many states tell the repo they can not take vehicle at that time. In Florida, cops have repo put vehicle down from tow truck, depending on public disturbance
Moreover, the one whom bought the vehicle is the legal.owner - same as a house! The lender is a lien holder securing the loan.
Lots of great considerations found in many of the comments. Also, If I were late on a payment I would be on the phone with the lender attempting to make arrangements. Certainly would not want to have it repo at Church or anywhere else! I would be trapped and would have to try and get a ride, walk or skip rope to get home, not to mention the public embarrassment - which I would get over lol
@newhorizon1355
@@Redeemed-w3g and definitely in this case, the repo was grabbing a car, he had zero legal authority to grab.
@@newhorizon1355 Thank you for clarification.
@@bullyboy131 👍
In many states it's lawful to use or threaten to use lethal force to prevent the theft of property. I don't know about Michigan, but if tgat were the case then I think this comes down to whether or not it was reasonable for the security guard to believe that the truck was being stolen. If he knew it was a repo, then even that doesn't seem to work.
(similar to makeb.539s post lower)
There needs to be a good synergy between post in parking lot with core crew inside church and good response/documentation practices.
This is how it would go down based on my experience doing security at a public place where I did bike patrol:
1. Observation - check for odd behaviour, official tags and certificates on vehicle
2. Reason to Trespass called a TPA
(give warning - verbally or written)
3. Record & Store - Record in accessible "Store n Retrieve" System
> repo and bounty documentation if they are collaborative
> document CCW present
4. Upon re-entry second verbal warning or sequester to security office ( and in some cases where its like a bounty hunter or repo indicating police will be called if further breach)
5. Physically beside the persons movement but vehicle makes that difficult
Draw if record indicates suspicious person has CCW.
6. Upon resistance call police, track suspect at distance or verbally state the person is under citizens arrrest *
* in this case we had a rerired police on site who authorized arrest and was the same culture as suspec
I disagree. Property is an extension of your life and I absolutely think criminals should be the ones at risk for their crimes and not the honest person trying to protect their possessions.
In Missouri, one of the free states, castle doctrine extends to property. We don't have to cower.
You really need to get a better handle on the variation in state law on deadly force to protect property.
Having been in security for nearly 20 years, I have dealt with Repo's over the years. They are not considered an invited guest on private property (trespassing and they almost always are) and when they have shown up on my property specially after hours (they love doing that) they are told to return during business hours and contact management to get authorization for the tow or come back with a police escort.
From the description that the repo went for the wrong vehicle, it could have been an attempted snatch and grab, or it really was an honest mistake (yes, there are repo's that will use forged documentation) so the reason why I take the above actions. In Florida that pickup truck would be illegal due to the lack of certain markings that are required by law, so my weapon would be at the ready. If the S/O believed that the repo was armed I can see as to why he took the actions he did. Repos have been known to go out armed due to the nature of their work. Now that I do work a church security detail, my response to the situation on the first encounter would have been tell the guy he needs to see the staff to get permission. He will either do it or leave. If the repo leaves, notify church staff of the problem and if they did return for another attempt: step one call 911 (unless it was ok by the management at the time of the first reporting) step two alert the staff step three be prepared for the fight.
Exactly, the security guy should have asked the repo guy to confirm he had the correct car, and if they are telling this or any person to leave and they return, call the police, give trespass warning. I'm sure that if the police had been called they would "likely" have figured out that this was the wrong vehicle, and maybe interrupted a car theft ring operating as legitimate repo business, but that is something for the police not the guard who is now focused on something other than protecting the flock.
In general, I agree: church or not, going to my sidearm is *usually* a last resort.
If I was knowing that I'd be stopping a felony in progress, including (what appeared to be grand theft auto), I'd be ready to draw; my state allows us to brandish in order to deter/prevent/stop a crime in progress.
If the repo man was known to have been previously on the property, then the ENTIRE team should've been informed immediately. In that context, the repo man's reappearance should've been met with some response much more low-level than brandishing.
Interesting point about teying to be welcoming to all in every situation- sometimes easier said than done, though!
Courts have ruled you can't shoot someone with a firearm over property. Unless of course that has to do with an act of immediate life saving. Texas Law has a loophole over this.
First thing, call the local Police department. Inform the tow truck operator that he is trespassing. You can use another vehicle to block the personal vehicle until the Police arrive. (There was no threat from what we see from the tow truck operator against the security guard) The real question here is by law, who does the private vehicle legally belong to at the time of the repossession. If the lending institution legally owns the vehicle at the time of repossession. It's their vehicle to do what they want. If the law considers the vehicle owner still the owner, then the tow truck needs to get permission from the church to come on the property. It is private property. The Church security guard, like so many people who carry firearms want to go to the firearm first. It is only a last resort to a life-threatening situation. why would you want to get yourself caught up in a private matter when the lending institution will ultimately get the vehicle anyway. The security guard may want to look into charging the tow truck driver with trespassing. when the tow truck operator first left and then came back may be a case for trespassing. But then every state has its own laws.
Nope, no force, no gun. Should have told him to leave and called the cops…
🔥BLAME !🔥 THIS IS A "DIRECT RESULT" OF A "CHRISTIAN WARRIOR" I KNOW OF ! THE TACTICAL TRAINING COARSE IS WHAT YOUR SEE'N !!! GOOD JOB KEITH ! I TOLD YA SO !
No one needs to pull weapon on material items....if they rob church, but don't hurt no one, let it go, money, cars, can be replaced, a life cannot. Unless that person is firing at unarmed or security, that's different. That was a big mistake.
So many differing opinions, about who may be right based on what state their thought process is referencing. State laws "defense of property" are different from state to state. Before you feel confident in whatever action you may take regarding your own property, check your state and local laws where you live.
Where was the threat of bodily harm to the security guard?
We are given instructions that we are to protect life not the church property or others property, including the offerings.
Repo folks take the risk for the big pay. Banks and lenders should be made to follow the legal system...
That's why they call it "K'zoo".
“[The repo driver] was wrong. It wasn’t the right vehicle.” Sounds like the church security team member prevented a vehicle theft. Do you really think talking to this guy would have stopped him from stealing the car?
You're assessment of the situation is wrong. The security guard was authorized by the head of the church to protect the people and the property on church grounds. You admitted that the tow truck driver was actually repossessing the wrong car which makes that a theft, On top of that the repo driver's vehicle had no form of identifying markings or identification on it to make it seem like it was a legitimate Repossession. The security guard did his job and I commend him for it.
Joe Puckett, excellent choice of video.
YOU HAVE TO LIVE IN OKC ..!!!!! I LIVE SOUTH SIDE, OKC...!!!!!
Taking the wrong car is theft, a repo man that tries to take the wrong car is not doing his job.
Yeah there is a many innocent people, Americans thats rotting 6ft under right now for trying to use their verbal skills
The tow guy was not trying to have bible study he was taking a vehicle on PRIVATE PROPERTY. Didn't see any thing that said TOW TRUCK on the vehicle plus he could let the security guard know and called the police for assistance to get the RIGHT VEHICLE. It look like some random person(the devil lol)stealing a car.
Come on, man! The repo guy's check is in the parishioners car that they aren't paying for. Learn the repo laws. They are almost like bounty hunters. They'll be polite then sneak right back.
Tow truck driver going to a church to repo the wrong car? Sounds like attempted theft. Use of deadly force to stop the "repo", not allowed in FL.. Security shoulda blocked the tow driver with his own car and called the cops.
In California, aka Commiefornia, one cannot protect property with deadly force.
That was a stupid move.
A big failure on many levels...yikes.
Whether it was the right car or wrong car, the security guard committed aggravated assault, at a minimum. The repo guy has a perfectly legal job to do. As John on the Active Self Protection channel says, Deescalate, Escape, and Avoid. The security guard did none of these and, rightfully, was charged.
He had no business there- Private church property- Auto Theft in progress
Don't want to be a Monday morning quarterback, however the security individual should have stood in the front of the truck to prevent the repo individual from leaving church parking lot till the police arrived
Then everything could be sorted out
1. Using words did not work in this case.
2. Call 911 when words do not work.
3. Let the police handle it.
4. If the security guy is charged, then the repo man should be charged with attempted grand theft auto if it was the wrong car.
5. If you don’t like anything I said well I want you to have a blessed day regardless.
The repo guy isn't committing a crime. He may screw up and be sued, yes....., BUT his intent is legal, not illegal, not a criminal act.
See my other post, this is what I mean by people DO NOT understand the Criminal and Civil law world interaction.
All LE is going to do is see documents and leave. They are NOT going to get involved in the CIVIL, legalities of this stuff. It is between owner and buyer, it is a contract issue not a LE issue.
@@darrensquier4079 what would happen if your vehicle was missing one day? Who would you call?
Well he shoud have defended himself period
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
We protect life not property
Verbal judo is so under developed now if the car is getting ready to mow me down after the altercation that may be different use of force, but otherwise verbal judo the way to go
If you check out the original story, the repo man was trying to check the VIN when he was there the first time and security ran him off before he could finish. If he would have let him check the VIN, they both would have known it was the wrong vehicle! After police arrived, they checked the VIN and discovered it was different from the vehicle they were looking for!
Listen I am a retired Sergeant from a PD. We had multiple shootings ; I mean officer involved Shootings about 1/2 half fatal! Many I investigated! The security guard should have been arrested! I hv spoke to my Church multiple times and it’s ignored? Lately I hv pulled away from being involved in security! I hv in fact arrested security guards for doing this and even firing their weapons ! I am armed and ready to protect myself or others but no more of just wining it!
Stop the cap. A brinks security guard was killed despite having a gun in his hand, downward when armed robber attacked him. Law enforcement is trained to approach a vehicle, especially a tinted window vehicle, during a Felony stop- guns pointing toward suspects. Even that doesn't mean they WIN. The fact is the guard has no backup coming, like u did, so he has to be the Victor. Though he was wrong-- he has my respect for not gambling whether he WIN or not-- cause the winner is the o e who lives thru a gun battle 🤔
@@newhorizon1355 I thought he was charged and arrested ? In fact he was ? How is that going home ? How is that winning?
Who is paying his legal fees ? It’s my understanding it’s not written in stone the church will?
I think I would hv got a great description & called the Police? Went in and listened to the rest of the sermon ?
But then again I hv nothing to prove to anyone ?
@zephyr1408 Charges can be dropped at anytime, especially with now public exposure. The fact the car he tried to take turned out to not be one repoing also is going to have a good defense lawer argument in court. If you are a ir ex Sgt u should know charges get tossed like non winning lotto tickets. Speaking of winning, wasn't talkn about winning a case, I was talkn about winning a gun battle by element of strategic approach- tactics swat uses.
@@newhorizon1355 please I am a retired Homicide/Robbery Det . Last thing you should do is explain the law to me? But thanks anyway
Plenty of stupidity to go around. Firearms are deadly force. Use them as such in a legal, ethical, and moral manner. Property isn't usually a valid reason. If I'm going to the psgr side to get my kid out of the child seat n someone attempts to steal my vehicle, that's definitely morally just, n I'd personally opt to deal with any legal consequences. But that's incredibly rare n not the case here.
In some places repo man isn't allowed on private property. Absolutely nowhere is it legal for a repo man to steal a car. They have documentation for that. So repo man, be sure you're getting the right vehicle, be sure you're legal to get it where it is.
Right now the security guy is looking at brandishing or more likely ag assault. The repo guy should be looking at attempted theft trespassing, and possibly reckless driving.
Again, preventable n stupid on all parts.
Side note, both of these dummies Are a monster liability for their organization
He not going to bud... the church was on the right...
You are correct! No one should take a life for properly.
I can't say you are right or wrong. I'll have to think on this for awhile. No business has the right to come on private property and conduct their business without prior consent, that is the problem with the "government" they are breaking laws to create these laws. The law of this land is to stand up to tyranny.
Yet my number one priority is the great commission.
It is a parking lot open to the public.
@@darrensquier4079 it's a private parking lot, not a place to conduct business
Every CCL holder knows that deadly force is Not legal to stop theft.
@wilson4328 lol, property falls under scotus use of deadly force. You've swallowed the brainwashing of the last 30 years. U have a legal right to defend, with the use of deadly force, ur life, the life of someone else, or your property. Unfortunately, left wing states don't honor the last part. In Texas, a neighbor told by 911 operator not to go shoot two unarmed buglars- proved " Property" - doesn't even have to be yours!
Going to church is dangerous.
Life, in general, is dangerous. Especially in Democrat run cities, like Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, and states like California and New York. Death can come at anytime for anyone. No one is immune. That is why we need Jesus Christ as our personal savior to save us from hell fire when we die, and we WILL DIE eventually.
Is that Peter drawing the sword to cut off an ear??!!
Peter was protecting Jesus, Jesus himself told Pilate he could call legions of angels to come protect him. Sorry had to paint correct light of Biblical Event, since u took it way outta context of event.
@@newhorizon1355legions of angels. 😊
@@andreweff1284 thanks let's see if auto correct puts it in right this time.
Well, pulling a gun wasn’t warranted, he could’ve stood in front of the car and prevented him from taking it, but he should’ve called the police. If it’s private property and he said he wasn’t allowed on the property then the repo guy should’ve just left probably doesn’t have the legal right to be there if he was told to leave private property, but I’m not sure if that’s even the law in every state. But pulling the gun was a bit ridiculous.
Where do you live? Criminals would like to come take what you have and see how warm and welcoming you treat them 😅
Using words would have been such a better outcome regardless of whether the car was taken or not. No cause for drawing defensive tools that I can see.
The repo man has every right to do his job. The whole thing is utterly ridiculous and utterly wrong on the part of church security. It should have been, "Oh, you're here to repossess a car? OK, have at it, and have a nice day!" The fact that the guy got the wrong car is immaterial. And it likely had something to do with the security man giving him a hard time for no reason.
The fact he got the wrong car is extremely material.
@@USMC6976 Only if the security guy knew it. And how would he know, unless he recognized the car and knew its owner well enough to know that it was paid for, or paid up current? No, I say that it is more likely totally immaterial, because repo business is repo business, and who would know the payment status of every church member's car loan? No one besides the bank. No; at most the security guy should have asked for ID, to make sure it was a legit repo business. No more. The fact that it was the wrong car would have been sorted out right quick, and NOT by church security who has no business in such things whatsoever.
@@omnivore2220 Nope, doesn't matter at all. The fact that it turned out to be true is all that is material.
But the repo guy was told to leave and came back. That's criminal trespass. Repo man was wrong from start to finish.
You don’t use your firearm in this situation.
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