Agree. I avoid taking the defense action, and am always looking to deal damage and get rid of tough cards, especially if I'm playing with a heavy hitter in the other hand who needs those toughs or "guard" minions out of the way. The suit, while nice is just a lot of cost for not a ton of return on my play-style, especially after round 3. **Edit** Same with shield toss. I don't defend as much with Cap as he's got a nicer amount of HP to play with. Might be why I lose so much 🤔
Synthsuit, I agree. Dance of Death, uh no! This card is basically a piercing before piercing existed. It's not a bad cost ratio given that it can be spread out across minions as well or setup another ally or hero for a better kill if they have overkill. I'll never turn down versatility.
Ehh, I guess I agree. When I run her in Leadership I'm basically always going to chump block. I've also played her a lot in Justice, where it can actually be useful once in a while, especially if you get a bad minion turn, but then you could have probably used DOD to clear the board.
Black Widow's weakest card is her second copy of Black Widow's Gauntlet. All her cards are good, and since I like to play her in Protection I've seen the strength of her Synthsuit. The only strike against it is its cost. But the gauntlets you rarely need two of. Is it useful to have both? Sure. But the second one is pretty marginal, especially since by the time you get it onto the board you will often have a few preparations out already so there are fewer to play.
If I'm playimg protection, I love synth suit because I can get her to 4 DEF, and I'm staying in Hero to block, so it synergizes really well. Outside of protection though, it is very expensive for something you won't make use of very often. Solid choice.
Thanks for having me! This was a ton of fun and I’m looking forward to the comment section to see how people react… Also can’t wait for the next episode!! 🎉
Oof Shield Toss is the one that may get you some fan backlash lol!! I hear you on some of the drawbacks of ST that you mentioned (resource costly and shield returning to hand), and while I wish it stunned the enemies it hit (would that be too powerful?) I just think it's such a fun and super satisfying card thematically for Cap! Four damage to potentially five or so enemies?! This is so fun in a multiplayer and it has tipped the scale of quite a few games for us. I have to say Helmet is definitely the worse card in this case and I can't remember playing it or using it. Loving this series by the way, great job to @VillainTheory and @WinningHandPodcast - can't wait for the next video.
@@TheVlad1616 If you pay for them. To me, the feel isn't like Thor or Cap catching Mjolnir/the shield after using it, it's like it falls on the floor and they need to pick it up again. But YMMV.
I love how Boomguy always talks about the "feel" of different cards. A card may be useful, but it "feels" bad. That's definitely a big factor for me. I bring Marvel Champions to game night, and if the game has a bad feel, then no one wants to play. Most of my our house-rules revolve around things which "feel" bad, even though they have a good place in the game. One example is our house-rule that stuns and confuses can be ignored by our heroes if we take 1 damage and 1 encounter card. It's an almost superfluous rule, as none of us have ever taken that option ==> but it feels good to have it. Note that we might have to think of something different for Star Lord. ;-)
I play a lot of multiplayer and find much more value in Shield Toss. I don't always play it, but if they line up the targets for you, it's hard not to knock them all down. It's a very satisfying and thematic card to play.
TLDR: Helmet is worse. The statement describing pitching Shield Toss to get off “4 damage” via basic attacking isn’t a correct evaluation. You’d always have your basic attack anyways so at best it’s worth 2 as a ready. At 2-4 players it’s almost always usable due to minion odds. You only need 1 minion for it to hit efficiency curve since you can always target the villain. Total cost including replaying shield and 2 targets puts it on par with Uppercut in dmg/resource. Every additional target past 2, turns it from good to great.
I realized on watching it back that I never said anything much about the basic attack evaluation, I do agree and I do love some Shield Toss. Great multiplayer minion damage especially.
Shield Toss isn't a very inefficient card. I agree that it is the second worst card in his kit though. If you hit 1 enemy (the villain) it has an efficiency of (4)/(2+1) = 1.33 which is a bit less than you would normally like. Swinging Web Kick is 2.0 and Uppercut is 1.25. But if you hit 2 enemies with it it has an efficiency of (8)/(3+1) = 2.0 which is on par with swinging web kick. It is definitely true that you might be overkilling minions making it slightly less efficient, but also, what other card can take out that many minions? I agree with basically everything you both said about both cards. I think I prefer Shield Toss over the helmet, because if you are at 1 hp and you can't win next turn you will have to flip down to recover anyways. Note: On the efficiency calculations I did there I was assuming part of the cost was just replaying the shield. It becomes wildly efficient if you don't want to play your shield again lol but I don't think it makes sense to think about it that way.
I do like Shield Toss, and thinking back I've even built multiplayer decks around it with other multi-target attacks and Warrior Skill/Aggressive Energy. It really shines in scenarios like Mutagen Formula.
Edited now I’ve watched the whole video Omg….. I love shield toss. This actually upsets me 😂 If you’ve minions on the board, there is no other card that makes me feel more like Captain America. Admittedly it gets used a lot less at true solo…. But it can be a really efficient card and resources are never an issue in a Captain America deck. Black widow I think it’s widows bite. Thor agreed Doc Strange agreed Hulk agreed Ms Marvel….. is the worst card her hero card and stats, but yes Red Dagger is probably the correct card.
Yeah I’m definitely Theme bias…. But even ignoring my clinical diagnosed faults, being able to hit 4 enemies for 4 damage each (thank goodness this isn’t a Thor card) for an effective resource cost of 2…. I think it’s an amazing card Are you ever NOT playing it against wrecking crew? An awesome series of videos guys. Great content and look forward to being flabbergasted at the next
I'm so surprised with Synth Suit! It's my favorite card. It's an auto play as soon as it hits my hand. I play her in protection with the armored vest and having 4 DEF and readying every villain phase by triggering preparation cards feels nice. And every time I flip down with Black Widow, I regret it because then I can't trigger my cool preparations.
It might just come down to playstyles! I don't like to end in hero form too often with Black Widow. Maybe in the later stage of the game if I have an abundance of unused Preparations? But that has its own factors~ But it's a cool card. She doesn't have a bad option!
Captain America, one of my favorite heroes! Here I agree with VT, I’ve used shield toss way more than the helmet, specially after a villain phase goes minion crazy.
For me Hulk's worst card is Banners Lab. The REC and the resource are nice but needing to be in alterego to use the resource limits what you can spend it on. There is only one card in this kit you can actually spend it on. At least spider man has things like Webshooters that let him effectively bank his alterego resource so he can make use of it in hero form, and get two extra resources out of it. It just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of his kit. It could have been interesting to have a design where Banner has loads of resources to help you build your board and then Hulk just smashs but that doesn't seem to be what we got and so the lab feels like it's just thrown in.
I thought about the Lab. I think the argument for it is certain great decks actually make a ton of use of being alter-ego and using it. But the way I like to play Hulk? SMASH. So for me it's not particularly useful either a lot of the time. Agreed that it feels randomly thrown in too.
Very fun again. I only really disagree with Shield Toss - would the Helmet be A tier? Shield Toss can be underwhelming but has high ceiling. You never* lose the shield unless you use it as a resource. I'd argue Vapours is DrS worst card as it can gum up the invocation deck... Thor has 5 hand size in AE making For Asgard! that bit more truly terrible which is a shame as he has a few more interesting bad cards to look at. Hulk is depressing. Ms M has a lot of very ordinary cards, it's a wonder she's so good. Red Dagger is imo where allies should be not where they are, especially basics. Still he has no synergy with MsM. BW has no bad cards. Dance and Synth suit are both a bit tricky to play. Dance feels amazing vs 5 hp tough minions and appalling vs Retaliate * Hardly eveeer!
Heads up - though you obviously still have to pay for it, they've ruled that you can use Vapors even if there are no status cards in play. So you can power past it. Not ideal, but it does help a lot.
[For Asgard] ends up saving me every game, because I get the WORST shuffles, and both [God of Thunder] cards always end up at the bottom of the deck. It's one more way to get one in play ==> efficiency goes way up if you get a resource generator.
Captain: I get some value from Shield Toss, although its certainly not a card I use every game with Cap, and maybe not even every other. I usually play the helmet as a nice insurance, but it's never actually saved me, and I believe I've only seen it triggered once ever. Black Widow: I think there are strong arguments for both cards, but I think Dance of Death is needed more for her, especially solo. Those instances can be a huge boon sometimes, but if you get Modok or Zola, it's really tough on her. I've always wanted to try a protection deck with her, but so far have only done trusty leadership and justice. Hulk: I actually think the arguments against Hulk Smash are pretty valid. I have lost more than one game I should have won from getting exhausted with Hulk the turn I was either going to win or take care of the big threat on the table. But, its also won me games, so there's that. Still think Suborbital Leap is worse, but I do not like the way Hulk Smash is instanced. Ms Marvel: I have only played her in aggression, so Big Hands is the worst card for me. She nearly always has better options, though I usually pass on Red Dagger as well.
I really enjoy these videos a lot, mainly because I think the discussion around why these cards are the worst for a hero also reflect on what makes a card good in the first place. With that, I have to levy one major criticism of the video for me: there is too much discussion on (or perhaps stock put in) resource efficiency. Resource efficiency is a very useful tool in evaluating a card compared to other similar cards, but it has to be used in the context of a hero's kit. If you are comparing aspect cards, resource efficiency is a great tool, but comparing a Swinging Web Kick to a Big Hands is and using resource efficiency as a primary criticism is flawed. You are not able to pick one card over another in a deck build, and each card exists in a completely different ecosystem of hero cards. For example, Big Hands is a much more complex card to assess than SWK because you have to consider embiggen, potentially returning the card to your hand with your hero ability, biopolymer suit, etc. In fact, if you play big hands with embiggen, pop it back to your hand, and then play it again, you have spent 5 resources for 10 damage and have the ability to split that damage up into 2 chunks. Also, Peter Parker tends to have more money, and can therefore afford SWK more easily than another character could. All of this to say: I think effective resources/efficiency is a great data point, but it should receive less consideration precisely because these aren't just cards, they are HERO cards. They have to be considered in the broader context of the kit. For example, Ancestral knowledge may actually be a much better card in Ms. Marvel because she already has 3 different named events that are pretty solid, but it's in black panther and therefore its not good. Similarly, Synth-Suit could be really good on a lot of heroes, but is much worse because it is on Black Widow and she wants to play the game away from that upgrade most of the time. I don't want to sound overly harsh or like I want the videos to be something they are not; I really like this discussion and your content as a whole! My biggest pet peeve in MC is people over-using efficiency as a metric, when in my opinion function/synergy/reliability are all more important considerations. And for what it's worth, Synth-Suit would have been my choice over Dance of Death! I will say my actual choice for worst BW card is Widow's Bite, precisely because it was ruled to not work on quickstrike! Since I normally want to kill minions in 1 turn anyway, stunning them doesn't matter. It's biggest positive is that it has a preparation keyword, but that's about it.
Great reply! Thanks for the detailed feedback! Unfortunately I think my channel is one of the channels that talks about efficiency the most because I do believe it's extremely important. With that said, I do try to highlight that you need to strike a balance, and what you *need* to do is more important than what is numerically superior. It's on that note I do want to clarify (in case it was missed) that I do defend Big Hands by saying that I do play it as sometimes it's the only option you have to do what you need (in other words, it has the function you need when there's nothing else to rely on). It's a card I play quite often. But then, I also play Red Dagger fairly often. And Sneak By. Ms. Marvel's cards, while not all spectacular, are all useful in the context of her kit. Or, as it is with Red Dagger, simply a good flexible ally. But then to play devil's advocate (sort of), with the example you give, you if you play Big Hands then use your hero ability to bring it back, then play it again with Embiggen, that's 5 effective resources AND you exhausted your hero AND you had to have a specific upgrade in play. If I'm Spider-Man and I play Swinging Web Kick and exhaust him (in this case to basic ATK), that's 10 damage for 4 effective resources and an exhaust, no upgrades required. And that is also split into two chunks - though of course one is larger at 8 damage so it's still more unwieldy. But the point there is that double Big Hands is still behind in damage-per-resource despite the help of an upgrade before we even consider the fact that Spidey can just afford things more easily on top. So, Big Hands isn't great but it's perfectly playable. Which is actually the point of the series. To say good things about cards which aren't universally praised. That they each have a solid use! I fear I rambled a bit but hopefully this added some interesting perspective. And to touch on a later, different point of yours, Widow's Bite was another card I considered for Black Widow as well. That quickstrike ruling is increeedibly sad.
@@VillainTheory I would add to the discussion about big hands and sneak by is that they are semi-tutorable with Ms Marvel's alter-ego ability. Because they are events that you have 3 of, you will get them fairly often on different decks passes, compared to other attack and thwart events and then keep on recurring them with MM's hero ability. You have to draw into SWK (though Spidey draws you a lot of cards).
As someone who has played Black Widow more than any other hero I feel she probably has one of the most consistently solid signature decks and frankly is one of the few decks I can't pick a worse one but I do feel you views are at least well defended. Synth suit is great if you can't chump block every time or go up against villains with overkill or more recently punish chump blocking and nothing pinks off Tough better than the Dance of death. It is also good at taking out minions. Honestly BW has probably one of the most solid signatures decks in the whole game along side Domino for me though Domino has atleast one card while I love could be considered her "worst"
I think Shield Toss was the better choice. The limitations discussed were on point, and I loathe removing the shield from play. His helmet is actually a solid card. It's a bit of very cheap insurance that thins your deck when played. I see almost no down side to the helmet.
Love this topic. I’d give it a million thumbs up if I could and you two work well together. As far as cap goes what’s funny is I’ve played the shield toss more than the helmet but think that the helmet is a better card strangely.
I really enjoy this series. It is a good thought experiment. However I had to stop the video when you finally picked Big Hands as Ms Marvel worst card. It is definitely Red Dagger. Big Hands is doing what she wants to do which is to play and bounce events. Red Dagger is not doing anything like the rest of her kit. I also hated the final argument of making Red Dagger a basic ally and Big Hands an aggression event. Those are not close to compare. To make it fair, you should have also thought Big Hands as a basic card too. Or a non-aggression event
The basic/aggression argument definitely has holes in it, though I do think it's fun as a way to try and gain perspective. Ultimately I agree that Red Dagger is her worst. Unfortunately Big Hands is pretty "meh" for an attack card even with the ways she has to interact with it though, so I was happy to let it go! Her thwarting card is quite weak too - not sure if watched on to see it but I went on to talk about how, due to Embiggen/Shrink, her cards were basically made to be weaker at first. Part of the beauty of that is it gives her such rich interaction with the aspects (as she ends up prioritizing aspect cards over her own) but it does leave some fairly weak cards in her kit.
@@VillainTheory I did listen to the whole argument and I agree that her events are a little lower ratio than other heroes. She has the weird thing where if Big Hands and Sneak By did 1 point more, they would be too good. I just know for me Red Dagger is always my least played in her kit and probably my last choice of ally to play. I think I have only used his response once and then it felt like I had nothing to do the following hero turn. I do see his value if you are in alter ego but then it is less likely he will die during the villain turn (the best time to lose an ally IMO)
In addition to what everyone else has said about Shield Toss, a perhaps unsung bonus is its efficiency at ending the game. If you kill the villain with it, it's an easy 2 resources for 4 damage. I have this come up a fair amount, where having Shield Toss in my hand lets me end the game when a different card wouldn't.
I think I said this in the video BUT I also might have cut it from the final version, the original video was way too long. It's definitely a great point you raise! You don't even have to end the game with it that turn. Shield Toss. Spend shield on something else. Go alter-ego. Finish the game the following turn.
Totally agree with For Asgard! The only good use for it is in a deck where you want to search our Lady Sif for Sidekick or MAYBE really need The Bifrost.
That's such a wild take on Hulk Smash being the worst card... I've built several decks arounds that specific card! I would argue it's his best card and definitely sounded like he was gunna pull out a loljoke after saying it!
I think it kinda was a joke! Or at least just an opportunity to say even cards we think are really good have flaws (in contrast to the main point of the series, saying positives about flawed cards).
Could not agree more with the points made about 'taxing' certain heroes. I think it was a bad choice to tax Big Hands just because the hero can enhance events. Using Web Swing as a template, I think Big Hands should at least deal 5 damage, which puts it in a window where it's not horrible by itself, but becomes very good when you enhance it.
I suspect they wanted Ms. Marvel to really be an aspect-focused hero - and so they didn't want to make her signature attack and thwart cards too good and overshadow her aspect combos?
Shield toss vs Helmet, I think really comes down to solo vs MP. Shield Toss is a perfectly serviceable aoe card in MP especially since it can hit minions on multiple players and I play more than helmet. But I can see the opposite being true in solo. BW is definitely tricky as no bad cards. I agree w VT and think it's Synth suit as it's aspect dependent. Good in Prot, but I don't actually like BW-P (too slow), making it really only good in L as RR can trigger it in hero phase. Ms Marvel is also tricky, but I also think Red Dagger. Decent card but doesn't synergize. And I'm sorry, calling Hulk Smash his worst card is a wild take (it's his best card lol) it's Suborbital for sure.
I thought he was trolling with the Hulk Smash pick . I can't think of a reason to play Hulk other than to Smash for 13 with overkill. The fact that it can be hard to pull off is, in a weird way, part of Hulks charm. Like he's so bad that even his good cards can be bad, but it's satisfying when it works.
Helmet has a good purpose for caught off guard. Besides that Captain America doesn’t need his helmet. Black widow is tough to pick. Probably dance of death? Very tough.
Captain America: I agree with both of you. I like both cards, but they just don't get played very much. BW: DoD is not my favorite card, but it still seems to get played a lot because there aren't very many big damage cards in justice or protection, where BW really shines. Hulk: I agree with VT's thoughts on efficiency vs fun. When someone plays Hulk Smash, they involuntarily announce, "Hulk Smash!" So it's definitely a fun card to play. ;-)
For me: Cap. America: Toss > Helmet, I play the helmet to take it out of the deck. Black Widow: I like Dance of Death more than the Synth-Suit, still think the suit is very good though, but I'm usually not playing it until I can really afford it 💰 Hulk: Hulk Smash! is his best card, that's usually how I finish villains , if you have to play Sub-Orbital Leap is probably because your allies or other players are not doing well.
@@VillainTheory haha I'm not gonna lie, I let out an audible gasp after he said it. When I'm explaining how the game works mechanically for different heroes to a new players, Cap's Shield and Shield Toss are the example of cards I reference.
I've played Thor more than any other hero, and I have to say I think Lightning Strike may be worse than For Asgard. They're about equal. The problem with Lightning Strike now is that (at least for me) Thor is a very heavy Physical resource deck, rather than Energy. Currently I have 20 Physicals, so it is very hard to get Lightning Strike to deal real damage. It has value late game, but most of the time it is a dead draw. Aggression Thor also has access to an extremely efficient event base nowadays, and isn't really hurting for damage. Conversely, For Asgard is useless most of the game but is one of the best cards to have opening hand to ensure having Bifrost. FA also has a Physical resource for cards like Blade, Hulk, or Jarnborn, whereas LS has Mental, easily the worst resource type for Thor.
I quite like Lightning Strike, though it is situational. His cards have more energies than anything else, and with 2x God of Thunder in the deck there's usually some available. Especially as you can kick off playing Lightning Strike with Deft Focus, which means - admittedly once you're well set up - it's doing 2 damage minimum per target. More with Quincarrier. More with general energy cards such as those he likes (Get Over Here, Valkyrie, Throg, Thor Jane Foster, etc). But I also suspect this might be a solo vs. multiplayer thing. He gets such much value from gathering minions from other people with Get Over Here and sometimes Shatterstar, then blasting them all down with a massive Lightning Storm.
@@VillainTheory Yeah, multiplayer vs solo is definitely a big part of it. I find in solo it generally only packs value if Thor's nemesis set is active. It does rule against Frost Giants. I wish it was actually piercing damage so that it could be used to clean up Tough cards even at lower damage levels (but maybe I'm playing incorrectly leaving the Tough cards in tact).
Cap's Helmet is his worst card, because in a multi-hero game Shield Toss is amazing for minion control. Hulk Smash is not Hulk's worst card, it's actually his best. If Hulk and Rogue are out, Rogue is going to use Superpower Adaptation to grab Hulk Smash.
Rogue...SMASH! I obviously agree about the Helmet as you saw in the video, but it's so interesting that a 1-cost card that prevents you losing the game is fairly redundant on him. On paper it sounds very valuable.
After a strong start with the core set, this was a disappointing set of cards you chose. Magical Enhancements is not only Strange's worst card, it's among the very worst hero cards in the whole game. It's literally the same thing as Morale Boost, which you note. D-tier for sure, maybe just above Ground Stomp (another candidate for worst hero card in the game, btw). Also pretty disappointed that Big Hands was chosen for Kamala. Red Dagger is clearly her worst card. Shield Toss, while not close to Cap's best card, is still fantastic value in a multiplayer game. Once you're hitting 2+ targets, it's above curve, and only gets better with more targets. If you were resolved to pick it over the Helmet (which is clearly worse), it should have been in S-tier for sure.
The problem I have with your Black Widow choice is that it sounds like you're assuming that she's always in Justice. In Aggression or Protection I'm not sure if she would have the thwarting ability to keep up with threat if she went down every other turn.
I actually really enjoy playing Black Widow in different aspects. Thanks to modern deckbuilding options like Psylocke and Professor X, on top of her own 2x confuse, it's generally very doable. Her thwarting is pretty good baseline as well. But I am generally deckbuilding to try and be able to go alter-ego. Other people's experience may vary if they're not building for that, have a limited collection or are only building for theme etc. (And certainly Justice does it the easiest.)
@@VillainTheory I'm sure it has it's uses. I would just rather play anything else. And with Build Support being a thing to scoop Asgard I imagine wanting to use it even less.
If the Hulk pick was used to illicit comments, then cool. But (and it's just my opinion as well) if that's really how the guest rates cards, then I certainly won't be running to listen to a podcast where he shares these opinions. Seriously, it's such a bad take, I'm glad VT almost instantly contradicted it. Idk maybe it was just a joke.
I am SO sorry about the Black Widow choice... Or do you guys agree?
Agree. I avoid taking the defense action, and am always looking to deal damage and get rid of tough cards, especially if I'm playing with a heavy hitter in the other hand who needs those toughs or "guard" minions out of the way. The suit, while nice is just a lot of cost for not a ton of return on my play-style, especially after round 3.
**Edit** Same with shield toss. I don't defend as much with Cap as he's got a nicer amount of HP to play with.
Might be why I lose so much 🤔
Synthsuit, I agree. Dance of Death, uh no! This card is basically a piercing before piercing existed. It's not a bad cost ratio given that it can be spread out across minions as well or setup another ally or hero for a better kill if they have overkill. I'll never turn down versatility.
Ehh, I guess I agree. When I run her in Leadership I'm basically always going to chump block. I've also played her a lot in Justice, where it can actually be useful once in a while, especially if you get a bad minion turn, but then you could have probably used DOD to clear the board.
Black Widow's weakest card is her second copy of Black Widow's Gauntlet.
All her cards are good, and since I like to play her in Protection I've seen the strength of her Synthsuit. The only strike against it is its cost.
But the gauntlets you rarely need two of. Is it useful to have both? Sure. But the second one is pretty marginal, especially since by the time you get it onto the board you will often have a few preparations out already so there are fewer to play.
If I'm playimg protection, I love synth suit because I can get her to 4 DEF, and I'm staying in Hero to block, so it synergizes really well. Outside of protection though, it is very expensive for something you won't make use of very often. Solid choice.
Thanks for having me! This was a ton of fun and I’m looking forward to the comment section to see how people react…
Also can’t wait for the next episode!! 🎉
What have we done...
Loving this series guys 👏
Glad you guys got a Team-Up, I'll need to find the first episode, I somehow missed it
Oof Shield Toss is the one that may get you some fan backlash lol!! I hear you on some of the drawbacks of ST that you mentioned (resource costly and shield returning to hand), and while I wish it stunned the enemies it hit (would that be too powerful?) I just think it's such a fun and super satisfying card thematically for Cap! Four damage to potentially five or so enemies?! This is so fun in a multiplayer and it has tipped the scale of quite a few games for us. I have to say Helmet is definitely the worse card in this case and I can't remember playing it or using it.
Loving this series by the way, great job to @VillainTheory and @WinningHandPodcast - can't wait for the next video.
#TeamShieldToss!!😉Thanks for the kind words! We'll be back in a few weeks with the next installment!
@@VillainTheory Excited for wave 2! (or Redskull campaign alone?)
If Cap and Thor came out today, Shield Toss and Hammer Throw would exhaust their respective weapons rather than return to hand.
That would be fun, though there are some fun shenanigans with the hammer and alter-ego.
I’d hope now. Thematically it makes more sense to return to hand. They throw their weapon and it returns to them (to be able to use again).
@@TheVlad1616 But they're not able to use again until you pay for them, which is the opposite of that IMO.
@@Anondod but you can use them again. If you tapped them, you wouldn’t be able to until next round.
@@TheVlad1616 If you pay for them. To me, the feel isn't like Thor or Cap catching Mjolnir/the shield after using it, it's like it falls on the floor and they need to pick it up again. But YMMV.
I love how Boomguy always talks about the "feel" of different cards. A card may be useful, but it "feels" bad. That's definitely a big factor for me. I bring Marvel Champions to game night, and if the game has a bad feel, then no one wants to play. Most of my our house-rules revolve around things which "feel" bad, even though they have a good place in the game. One example is our house-rule that stuns and confuses can be ignored by our heroes if we take 1 damage and 1 encounter card. It's an almost superfluous rule, as none of us have ever taken that option ==> but it feels good to have it. Note that we might have to think of something different for Star Lord. ;-)
I play a lot of multiplayer and find much more value in Shield Toss. I don't always play it, but if they line up the targets for you, it's hard not to knock them all down. It's a very satisfying and thematic card to play.
So you're saying don't toss Shield Toss? Oh the irony... ;) It's definitely fun to play and can have such good results!
TLDR: Helmet is worse.
The statement describing pitching Shield Toss to get off “4 damage” via basic attacking isn’t a correct evaluation. You’d always have your basic attack anyways so at best it’s worth 2 as a ready. At 2-4 players it’s almost always usable due to minion odds. You only need 1 minion for it to hit efficiency curve since you can always target the villain. Total cost including replaying shield and 2 targets puts it on par with Uppercut in dmg/resource. Every additional target past 2, turns it from good to great.
I realized on watching it back that I never said anything much about the basic attack evaluation, I do agree and I do love some Shield Toss. Great multiplayer minion damage especially.
Shield Toss isn't a very inefficient card. I agree that it is the second worst card in his kit though. If you hit 1 enemy (the villain) it has an efficiency of (4)/(2+1) = 1.33 which is a bit less than you would normally like. Swinging Web Kick is 2.0 and Uppercut is 1.25. But if you hit 2 enemies with it it has an efficiency of (8)/(3+1) = 2.0 which is on par with swinging web kick. It is definitely true that you might be overkilling minions making it slightly less efficient, but also, what other card can take out that many minions? I agree with basically everything you both said about both cards. I think I prefer Shield Toss over the helmet, because if you are at 1 hp and you can't win next turn you will have to flip down to recover anyways.
Note: On the efficiency calculations I did there I was assuming part of the cost was just replaying the shield. It becomes wildly efficient if you don't want to play your shield again lol but I don't think it makes sense to think about it that way.
I do like Shield Toss, and thinking back I've even built multiplayer decks around it with other multi-target attacks and Warrior Skill/Aggressive Energy. It really shines in scenarios like Mutagen Formula.
Edited now I’ve watched the whole video
Omg….. I love shield toss. This actually upsets me 😂
If you’ve minions on the board, there is no other card that makes me feel more like Captain America.
Admittedly it gets used a lot less at true solo…. But it can be a really efficient card and resources are never an issue in a Captain America deck.
Black widow I think it’s widows bite.
Thor agreed
Doc Strange agreed
Hulk agreed
Ms Marvel….. is the worst card her hero card and stats, but yes Red Dagger is probably the correct card.
#TeamShieldToss If this was about theme it would score super high!
Yeah I’m definitely Theme bias….
But even ignoring my clinical diagnosed faults, being able to hit 4 enemies for 4 damage each (thank goodness this isn’t a Thor card) for an effective resource cost of 2…. I think it’s an amazing card
Are you ever NOT playing it against wrecking crew?
An awesome series of videos guys. Great content and look forward to being flabbergasted at the next
I'm so surprised with Synth Suit!
It's my favorite card. It's an auto play as soon as it hits my hand. I play her in protection with the armored vest and having 4 DEF and readying every villain phase by triggering preparation cards feels nice. And every time I flip down with Black Widow, I regret it because then I can't trigger my cool preparations.
It might just come down to playstyles! I don't like to end in hero form too often with Black Widow. Maybe in the later stage of the game if I have an abundance of unused Preparations? But that has its own factors~ But it's a cool card. She doesn't have a bad option!
@@VillainTheoryEnding in hero form is the only way to trigger her cards. 0_0
@@DiosNoMames Allow me to rephrase: I change form every turn that I can unless a bad situation forces my hand, because her alter-ego is so powerful
Captain America, one of my favorite heroes! Here I agree with VT, I’ve used shield toss way more than the helmet, specially after a villain phase goes minion crazy.
He's fun! And it's funny how a shield is such a fun way to damage enemies. Definitely great at clearing a board when the minions get out of hand.
For me Hulk's worst card is Banners Lab. The REC and the resource are nice but needing to be in alterego to use the resource limits what you can spend it on. There is only one card in this kit you can actually spend it on. At least spider man has things like Webshooters that let him effectively bank his alterego resource so he can make use of it in hero form, and get two extra resources out of it. It just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of his kit. It could have been interesting to have a design where Banner has loads of resources to help you build your board and then Hulk just smashs but that doesn't seem to be what we got and so the lab feels like it's just thrown in.
I thought about the Lab. I think the argument for it is certain great decks actually make a ton of use of being alter-ego and using it. But the way I like to play Hulk? SMASH. So for me it's not particularly useful either a lot of the time. Agreed that it feels randomly thrown in too.
Very fun again. I only really disagree with Shield Toss - would the Helmet be A tier? Shield Toss can be underwhelming but has high ceiling. You never* lose the shield unless you use it as a resource.
I'd argue Vapours is DrS worst card as it can gum up the invocation deck...
Thor has 5 hand size in AE making For Asgard! that bit more truly terrible which is a shame as he has a few more interesting bad cards to look at.
Hulk is depressing.
Ms M has a lot of very ordinary cards, it's a wonder she's so good. Red Dagger is imo where allies should be not where they are, especially basics. Still he has no synergy with MsM.
BW has no bad cards. Dance and Synth suit are both a bit tricky to play. Dance feels amazing vs 5 hp tough minions and appalling vs Retaliate
* Hardly eveeer!
Heads up - though you obviously still have to pay for it, they've ruled that you can use Vapors even if there are no status cards in play. So you can power past it. Not ideal, but it does help a lot.
[For Asgard] ends up saving me every game, because I get the WORST shuffles, and both [God of Thunder] cards always end up at the bottom of the deck. It's one more way to get one in play ==> efficiency goes way up if you get a resource generator.
Captain: I get some value from Shield Toss, although its certainly not a card I use every game with Cap, and maybe not even every other. I usually play the helmet as a nice insurance, but it's never actually saved me, and I believe I've only seen it triggered once ever.
Black Widow: I think there are strong arguments for both cards, but I think Dance of Death is needed more for her, especially solo. Those instances can be a huge boon sometimes, but if you get Modok or Zola, it's really tough on her. I've always wanted to try a protection deck with her, but so far have only done trusty leadership and justice.
Hulk: I actually think the arguments against Hulk Smash are pretty valid. I have lost more than one game I should have won from getting exhausted with Hulk the turn I was either going to win or take care of the big threat on the table. But, its also won me games, so there's that. Still think Suborbital Leap is worse, but I do not like the way Hulk Smash is instanced.
Ms Marvel: I have only played her in aggression, so Big Hands is the worst card for me. She nearly always has better options, though I usually pass on Red Dagger as well.
Thanks for the feedback! Great points all round. And if I may, I highly recommend Ms. Marvel in Justice!
I really enjoy these videos a lot, mainly because I think the discussion around why these cards are the worst for a hero also reflect on what makes a card good in the first place. With that, I have to levy one major criticism of the video for me: there is too much discussion on (or perhaps stock put in) resource efficiency. Resource efficiency is a very useful tool in evaluating a card compared to other similar cards, but it has to be used in the context of a hero's kit. If you are comparing aspect cards, resource efficiency is a great tool, but comparing a Swinging Web Kick to a Big Hands is and using resource efficiency as a primary criticism is flawed. You are not able to pick one card over another in a deck build, and each card exists in a completely different ecosystem of hero cards. For example, Big Hands is a much more complex card to assess than SWK because you have to consider embiggen, potentially returning the card to your hand with your hero ability, biopolymer suit, etc. In fact, if you play big hands with embiggen, pop it back to your hand, and then play it again, you have spent 5 resources for 10 damage and have the ability to split that damage up into 2 chunks. Also, Peter Parker tends to have more money, and can therefore afford SWK more easily than another character could.
All of this to say: I think effective resources/efficiency is a great data point, but it should receive less consideration precisely because these aren't just cards, they are HERO cards. They have to be considered in the broader context of the kit. For example, Ancestral knowledge may actually be a much better card in Ms. Marvel because she already has 3 different named events that are pretty solid, but it's in black panther and therefore its not good. Similarly, Synth-Suit could be really good on a lot of heroes, but is much worse because it is on Black Widow and she wants to play the game away from that upgrade most of the time.
I don't want to sound overly harsh or like I want the videos to be something they are not; I really like this discussion and your content as a whole! My biggest pet peeve in MC is people over-using efficiency as a metric, when in my opinion function/synergy/reliability are all more important considerations. And for what it's worth, Synth-Suit would have been my choice over Dance of Death! I will say my actual choice for worst BW card is Widow's Bite, precisely because it was ruled to not work on quickstrike! Since I normally want to kill minions in 1 turn anyway, stunning them doesn't matter. It's biggest positive is that it has a preparation keyword, but that's about it.
Great reply! Thanks for the detailed feedback! Unfortunately I think my channel is one of the channels that talks about efficiency the most because I do believe it's extremely important. With that said, I do try to highlight that you need to strike a balance, and what you *need* to do is more important than what is numerically superior.
It's on that note I do want to clarify (in case it was missed) that I do defend Big Hands by saying that I do play it as sometimes it's the only option you have to do what you need (in other words, it has the function you need when there's nothing else to rely on). It's a card I play quite often. But then, I also play Red Dagger fairly often. And Sneak By. Ms. Marvel's cards, while not all spectacular, are all useful in the context of her kit. Or, as it is with Red Dagger, simply a good flexible ally.
But then to play devil's advocate (sort of), with the example you give, you if you play Big Hands then use your hero ability to bring it back, then play it again with Embiggen, that's 5 effective resources AND you exhausted your hero AND you had to have a specific upgrade in play. If I'm Spider-Man and I play Swinging Web Kick and exhaust him (in this case to basic ATK), that's 10 damage for 4 effective resources and an exhaust, no upgrades required. And that is also split into two chunks - though of course one is larger at 8 damage so it's still more unwieldy. But the point there is that double Big Hands is still behind in damage-per-resource despite the help of an upgrade before we even consider the fact that Spidey can just afford things more easily on top.
So, Big Hands isn't great but it's perfectly playable. Which is actually the point of the series. To say good things about cards which aren't universally praised. That they each have a solid use! I fear I rambled a bit but hopefully this added some interesting perspective. And to touch on a later, different point of yours, Widow's Bite was another card I considered for Black Widow as well. That quickstrike ruling is increeedibly sad.
@@VillainTheory I would add to the discussion about big hands and sneak by is that they are semi-tutorable with Ms Marvel's alter-ego ability. Because they are events that you have 3 of, you will get them fairly often on different decks passes, compared to other attack and thwart events and then keep on recurring them with MM's hero ability. You have to draw into SWK (though Spidey draws you a lot of cards).
As someone who has played Black Widow more than any other hero I feel she probably has one of the most consistently solid signature decks and frankly is one of the few decks I can't pick a worse one but I do feel you views are at least well defended. Synth suit is great if you can't chump block every time or go up against villains with overkill or more recently punish chump blocking and nothing pinks off Tough better than the Dance of death. It is also good at taking out minions.
Honestly BW has probably one of the most solid signatures decks in the whole game along side Domino for me though Domino has atleast one card while I love could be considered her "worst"
It was difficult and it's evident in how we spent around 10 minutes discussing hers and only 2-3 minutes on Doctor Strange's haha!
I think Shield Toss was the better choice. The limitations discussed were on point, and I loathe removing the shield from play. His helmet is actually a solid card. It's a bit of very cheap insurance that thins your deck when played. I see almost no down side to the helmet.
Love this topic. I’d give it a million thumbs up if I could and you two work well together. As far as cap goes what’s funny is I’ve played the shield toss more than the helmet but think that the helmet is a better card strangely.
The Helmet is good if you need it...and Cap is so good you rarely need it, ha!
I really enjoy this series. It is a good thought experiment.
However I had to stop the video when you finally picked Big Hands as Ms Marvel worst card. It is definitely Red Dagger. Big Hands is doing what she wants to do which is to play and bounce events. Red Dagger is not doing anything like the rest of her kit.
I also hated the final argument of making Red Dagger a basic ally and Big Hands an aggression event. Those are not close to compare. To make it fair, you should have also thought Big Hands as a basic card too. Or a non-aggression event
The basic/aggression argument definitely has holes in it, though I do think it's fun as a way to try and gain perspective. Ultimately I agree that Red Dagger is her worst. Unfortunately Big Hands is pretty "meh" for an attack card even with the ways she has to interact with it though, so I was happy to let it go! Her thwarting card is quite weak too - not sure if watched on to see it but I went on to talk about how, due to Embiggen/Shrink, her cards were basically made to be weaker at first. Part of the beauty of that is it gives her such rich interaction with the aspects (as she ends up prioritizing aspect cards over her own) but it does leave some fairly weak cards in her kit.
@@VillainTheory I did listen to the whole argument and I agree that her events are a little lower ratio than other heroes. She has the weird thing where if Big Hands and Sneak By did 1 point more, they would be too good. I just know for me Red Dagger is always my least played in her kit and probably my last choice of ally to play. I think I have only used his response once and then it felt like I had nothing to do the following hero turn. I do see his value if you are in alter ego but then it is less likely he will die during the villain turn (the best time to lose an ally IMO)
In addition to what everyone else has said about Shield Toss, a perhaps unsung bonus is its efficiency at ending the game. If you kill the villain with it, it's an easy 2 resources for 4 damage. I have this come up a fair amount, where having Shield Toss in my hand lets me end the game when a different card wouldn't.
I think I said this in the video BUT I also might have cut it from the final version, the original video was way too long. It's definitely a great point you raise! You don't even have to end the game with it that turn. Shield Toss. Spend shield on something else. Go alter-ego. Finish the game the following turn.
Totally agree with For Asgard!
The only good use for it is in a deck where you want to search our Lady Sif for Sidekick or MAYBE really need The Bifrost.
I don't hate it on Turn 1 sometimes but it's a little meh. Maybe it will gain new cards to synergize with in the future?
That's such a wild take on Hulk Smash being the worst card... I've built several decks arounds that specific card! I would argue it's his best card and definitely sounded like he was gunna pull out a loljoke after saying it!
I think it kinda was a joke! Or at least just an opportunity to say even cards we think are really good have flaws (in contrast to the main point of the series, saying positives about flawed cards).
Could not agree more with the points made about 'taxing' certain heroes. I think it was a bad choice to tax Big Hands just because the hero can enhance events. Using Web Swing as a template, I think Big Hands should at least deal 5 damage, which puts it in a window where it's not horrible by itself, but becomes very good when you enhance it.
I suspect they wanted Ms. Marvel to really be an aspect-focused hero - and so they didn't want to make her signature attack and thwart cards too good and overshadow her aspect combos?
Shield toss vs Helmet, I think really comes down to solo vs MP. Shield Toss is a perfectly serviceable aoe card in MP especially since it can hit minions on multiple players and I play more than helmet. But I can see the opposite being true in solo.
BW is definitely tricky as no bad cards. I agree w VT and think it's Synth suit as it's aspect dependent. Good in Prot, but I don't actually like BW-P (too slow), making it really only good in L as RR can trigger it in hero phase.
Ms Marvel is also tricky, but I also think Red Dagger. Decent card but doesn't synergize.
And I'm sorry, calling Hulk Smash his worst card is a wild take (it's his best card lol) it's Suborbital for sure.
I feel genuine relief someone agrees about Synth Suit. My impression before making this is that people absolutely love that card haha!
@@VillainTheory there will definitely be times where the worst card is still a good card.
@@Ddwlf27 Yeah I'm dreading some of the later waves and heroes where almost everything is above average.
Great discussion. Thank you for this!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I thought he was trolling with the Hulk Smash pick . I can't think of a reason to play Hulk other than to Smash for 13 with overkill. The fact that it can be hard to pull off is, in a weird way, part of Hulks charm. Like he's so bad that even his good cards can be bad, but it's satisfying when it works.
Poor old Hulk. He tries so hard...
Helmet has a good purpose for caught off guard. Besides that Captain America doesn’t need his helmet.
Black widow is tough to pick. Probably dance of death? Very tough.
Blocking Caught Off-Guard is a nice shout.
Captain America: I agree with both of you. I like both cards, but they just don't get played very much. BW: DoD is not my favorite card, but it still seems to get played a lot because there aren't very many big damage cards in justice or protection, where BW really shines. Hulk: I agree with VT's thoughts on efficiency vs fun. When someone plays Hulk Smash, they involuntarily announce, "Hulk Smash!" So it's definitely a fun card to play. ;-)
Hulk.............SMASH!
For me:
Cap. America: Toss > Helmet, I play the helmet to take it out of the deck.
Black Widow: I like Dance of Death more than the Synth-Suit, still think the suit is very good though, but I'm usually not playing it until I can really afford it 💰
Hulk: Hulk Smash! is his best card, that's usually how I finish villains , if you have to play Sub-Orbital Leap is probably because your allies or other players are not doing well.
I feared backlash about the Synth Suit, but it was Shield Toss which everyone has rallied behind!
@@VillainTheory haha I'm not gonna lie, I let out an audible gasp after he said it. When I'm explaining how the game works mechanically for different heroes to a new players, Cap's Shield and Shield Toss are the example of cards I reference.
I've played Thor more than any other hero, and I have to say I think Lightning Strike may be worse than For Asgard. They're about equal. The problem with Lightning Strike now is that (at least for me) Thor is a very heavy Physical resource deck, rather than Energy. Currently I have 20 Physicals, so it is very hard to get Lightning Strike to deal real damage. It has value late game, but most of the time it is a dead draw. Aggression Thor also has access to an extremely efficient event base nowadays, and isn't really hurting for damage. Conversely, For Asgard is useless most of the game but is one of the best cards to have opening hand to ensure having Bifrost. FA also has a Physical resource for cards like Blade, Hulk, or Jarnborn, whereas LS has Mental, easily the worst resource type for Thor.
I quite like Lightning Strike, though it is situational.
His cards have more energies than anything else, and with 2x God of Thunder in the deck there's usually some available. Especially as you can kick off playing Lightning Strike with Deft Focus, which means - admittedly once you're well set up - it's doing 2 damage minimum per target. More with Quincarrier. More with general energy cards such as those he likes (Get Over Here, Valkyrie, Throg, Thor Jane Foster, etc).
But I also suspect this might be a solo vs. multiplayer thing. He gets such much value from gathering minions from other people with Get Over Here and sometimes Shatterstar, then blasting them all down with a massive Lightning Storm.
@@VillainTheory Yeah, multiplayer vs solo is definitely a big part of it. I find in solo it generally only packs value if Thor's nemesis set is active. It does rule against Frost Giants. I wish it was actually piercing damage so that it could be used to clean up Tough cards even at lower damage levels (but maybe I'm playing incorrectly leaving the Tough cards in tact).
Cap's Helmet is his worst card, because in a multi-hero game Shield Toss is amazing for minion control. Hulk Smash is not Hulk's worst card, it's actually his best. If Hulk and Rogue are out, Rogue is going to use Superpower Adaptation to grab Hulk Smash.
Rogue...SMASH! I obviously agree about the Helmet as you saw in the video, but it's so interesting that a 1-cost card that prevents you losing the game is fairly redundant on him. On paper it sounds very valuable.
@@VillainTheory When he said Hulk Smash I thiught he was joking. Your reaction would suggest you thought the same. [No disrespect to him!]
Magical Enhancements doesn't even thin your deck. It goes away at the end of the round.
It's with you for the long haul
After a strong start with the core set, this was a disappointing set of cards you chose.
Magical Enhancements is not only Strange's worst card, it's among the very worst hero cards in the whole game. It's literally the same thing as Morale Boost, which you note. D-tier for sure, maybe just above Ground Stomp (another candidate for worst hero card in the game, btw).
Also pretty disappointed that Big Hands was chosen for Kamala. Red Dagger is clearly her worst card.
Shield Toss, while not close to Cap's best card, is still fantastic value in a multiplayer game. Once you're hitting 2+ targets, it's above curve, and only gets better with more targets. If you were resolved to pick it over the Helmet (which is clearly worse), it should have been in S-tier for sure.
If For Asgard flipped you to alter-ego it would be viable, but then that would be the main effect.
That would be a fantastic tweak to be honest, I love that. That would help the low-thwarting Thor out a lot too.
I don’t know that I ever played Caps helmet.
There are definitely some bad helmet cards in this game. Captain Marvel's and Thor's are also contenders for their weakest cards.
The problem I have with your Black Widow choice is that it sounds like you're assuming that she's always in Justice.
In Aggression or Protection I'm not sure if she would have the thwarting ability to keep up with threat if she went down every other turn.
I actually really enjoy playing Black Widow in different aspects. Thanks to modern deckbuilding options like Psylocke and Professor X, on top of her own 2x confuse, it's generally very doable. Her thwarting is pretty good baseline as well. But I am generally deckbuilding to try and be able to go alter-ego. Other people's experience may vary if they're not building for that, have a limited collection or are only building for theme etc. (And certainly Justice does it the easiest.)
@@VillainTheory the answer is for me to dig Natasha out and try her with modern cards!
Hulk smash is an amazing card.
I honestly don't think I've ever even used For Asgard. And I've played Thor a lot.
I have used it a fair bit, but I also think some of my uses of it were far from optimal in hindsight...
@@VillainTheory I'm sure it has it's uses. I would just rather play anything else. And with Build Support being a thing to scoop Asgard I imagine wanting to use it even less.
Hulk's worst card is his identity card.
Hulk deserves better
Ask and ye shall receive!
Haha! I was going to drop another video first but it wouldn't have been ready for a bit so... Here we are!
If the Hulk pick was used to illicit comments, then cool. But (and it's just my opinion as well) if that's really how the guest rates cards, then I certainly won't be running to listen to a podcast where he shares these opinions. Seriously, it's such a bad take, I'm glad VT almost instantly contradicted it. Idk maybe it was just a joke.
I think it was meant as a joke and he always intended to go with my pick