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Star Wars Finally CONFIRMS The Knights of Ren are DARK JEDI and Use The Force
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How
Kylo : hey guys want to burn down the temple cause my uncle just tried to killed me
Jedi : do we get cool mask like darth Vader
Kylo : yeah
Jedi : ok
They're so elite that they don't even need to use lightsabers.
Weird that aint it? It's almost like they changed their mind. Last minute. Because their film's shit.
@@LawlTwins trueee
Sounds like it
It's probably old sith swords.
I thought the aftermath novels said they weren't force sensitive and basically just a fan club of the Sith lol
Knights of Ren are inquisitors for the first order basically
Exactly, trained but not fully trained, powerful but not powerful enough to stand against Kylo Ren, just like the Imperial Inquisitors with Darth Vader.
GLORIOUS EUGENE Kylo is too then, he's not a jedi, he's not a sith, he just uses the power of the dark side.
Hehehe! I know you from JCS!
@@kevinraza8010 honestly I'd say the inquisitors are far cooler then the knights of ren
👌
”They are elite”. Yeah that’s probably true but knowing disney we will se them for like 4 minutes before Rey kill them all without even a scratch...
God damn Mary Sue.
Mary Sue for sure
Guys, here's a quick tip, wait to see the movie before crying your heart out.......or, if you are so sure it's going to suck, do not go see the movie and stop checking videos about something you are convinced is going to suck.......I love the original Star Wars movies (some of the books are awful pieces of crap though), but I accept that I'll probably never enjoy any Star Wars movie as much as I enjoyed the originals...I don't have the same age, it's just not the originals, etc, but the awesome thing is, nothing forces anyone to keep watching after the originals. Just like nothing forces you from preferring legends material because, guess what, it's all legends, none of it is real, choose the stories you like, feel great and don't waste your time complaining about stuff you fear is going to suck. This is friendly advice, I am not trying to insult you. I'm just saying, complaining isn't that fun, is it? There's enough versions of Star Wars for all and who cares if you prefer the "unofficial version"? None of it is real anyway. Let's juste have fun and be thankful for this wonderful universe.
We might get lucky and kylo will turn against them, and giving emotion as kylo is fighting his brothers in arms even almost loosing ...before rey swoops in a beats them all.
Honestly, let's take this pretty good idea of sub antagonists and introduce them in a flashback for like 10 secs, then we'll kill each individual off like it will be nothing in the last movie of the series
Look I love the Knights of Ren concept, but I've been so jaded by these "elite warriors" that are just fodder for the hero. Snoke was built up as this big bad and his guards were his personal bodyguards and were hyped up, shown briefly, then killed quickly just like snoke was in TLJ, I suspect it will be the same for the sith troopers as well.
Your ability to repeat the same words for 10 minutes is stupendous.
IKR That’s all this channel is. Each video can easily be summed up with a few sentences but instead he draws it out for a whole 10 minute video. PS you have good tastes in shows
Gotta do everything you can for that sweet Tube muhney hehe i swear TH-camrs like this one are pathetic asf. 🤦♂️🤷♂️
Lol 10:03
Totally unintentional
@@mehmed6712 Yet here you are watching.
Wouldn't exactly say good taste.
Sounds like we skipped the trilogy we needed for the one we got...
On an unrelated note: 1) In the last Jedi, Yoda is aware of who Rey is even if Luke was cut off from the force. 2) Rey is inexplicably very powerful (so far). 3) Obi Wan warns Luke that if he fights Vader on Bespin, he won't be able to help him this time...which implies that he's helped him before. 4) A lot of people interpret Luke's ability to use the force without any training to blow up the Death Star 1 as him getting help from Obi Wan (we do hear him). Conclusion: What if Rey was knowingly or unknowingly helped by Obi Wan, Yoda, Anakin and perhaps others?
“They use the force”
The film: they don’t use the force 🤦♂️
One of them does during the fight scene for a second
It's sad though that we have to read an interview instead of learning this in a movie, unless ofc episode 9 explains it
No episode 9 will be about Rey defeating palpatin the last Sith Lord basically shitting on what Star Wars was suppose to be about the rise and fall of anakin skywalker and him being the chosen one
Even if they appear in ep 9 what is the point? There is not tension on their appearance, none of them is more powerful than kylo (they are weaker than jedi and/or siths), they gonna appear, use a little of screen time, get defeated and thats it.
@Dr. Emil Schauffhausen I've tried to explain this to so many people, generally this kind of thing that people demand just wouldn't add anything to the films progression, plus star wars has always relied more on the non movie media to go heavily into back story, it would just be a mess otherwise
@@johnchristopher32 It would greatly help in general if either JJ or Rian had a damn clue how to world build. Especially with the Knights of Ren and Captain Phasma, they easily have ways to develop them and become a real challenge for the trio. Instead, they are lazily dropped aside for rehashed existing set pieces. Just as an example, the KoR could of been sent after trio to hunt them down kinda like the chase between Obi-Wan and Jango Fett.
It was in the force awakens, last Jedi was just that fucking atrocious it skipped over left out and ignored so much shit that was being set up and added in a bunch of fucking crap that has to somehow be fixed
does anyone notice how many times he says the same stuff over and over again
Korealis 001 haha I thought my TH-cam was reloading already played sections at first
Does anyone notice how he explains everything better than anyone trying to do in the movies. Let him say it
he only does it to make the clip 10 minutes, so he gets more money.
@@ShadowMeatLover wa wa good for him
He does it for all the Jar Jars out there.
Kylo Ren: was trained by Luke & Snoke.
also Kylo Ren: trained his own inquisitors.
also Kylo Ren: was defeated by Rey when he was in great pain, which is one of the sources of power for the Dark Side.
JoaoG R Finally someone else said it. The bowcaster shot should’ve fueled his anger into making him a force to be reckoned with....
He should’ve folded Finn into a pretzel with the Force by just looking at him
Apparently killing han made him weaker.
They don’t even have individual names. So who dies first? Knights of ren or sith troopers?
Patrick C probably red jackets
Well I think the sith troopers are pretty numerous. Of course not like the regular stormtroopers but like still a good amount. There are only a handful of Knights of Ren so probably them because the sith troopers seem not as important.
Don't know if you've read the leaks so I won't give spoilers, but the KoR will have plenty of screen time. They're not gonna be a Boba Fett or Captain Phasma. And they do have names, they just won't be said in the movie.
hidalgo already confirmed they’re all named, promotional material just doesn’t include them for spoilers sake
I still don't know what the @#$ is a Sith Trooper??
Why do we need to get this info on comic we should have gotten this in the movies not books
Well no, books are answers to things that can’t/ shouldn’t be answered in movies, for example this, in the movie we should just see them use the force, not how.
@@LinoGuzman The only problem have that their origins shouldn't be explained in books it should have in the movies
Why, @@LMedina1021? Because Kathleen Kennedy.
The films are ads for toys, Disney rides, events content. They want product to get more $. Plot, film, characters, story? 👎🏻 Bob Iger & KK do not give 2 💩 about Star Wars.
We haven't even seen the movie in which they have more than 2 seconds of screen time though. Well likely see them use some of the force and get a number of scenes with them telling us more about them. JJ was asked what he would want to do a spin off about and he said the Knights of Ren.
"The Knights Of Ren are one of the most elite groups in Star Wars." ....and then they get killed in seconds.
Ok now I’m infinitely more interested in this movie, especially if we get a Kylo Ren vs All the Knights Of Ren scene.
Obvi , finally something I would like to see.
The KoR should have appeared in TLJ -- but Rian Johnson wouldn't have it.
Kathleen Kennedy sits on a throne of lies.
SPOILERS
According to the leaks, when Kylo Become Ben, they beat the shit out of him
Oh boy you are heading to a massive disappointment. Just saying....
ned snow, Honestly, there were leaks before that, that said Ben dispatches of them pretty quickly...I don’t trust a fucking thing these leaks say anymore...
He’s their master, It doesn’t make any sense at all for them to be beating the shit out him, he has clearly made them all submit before, you don’t become master without proving yourself superior...these leaks man...feels like they were written by a delusional drunk homeless guy on crack.
This video gave the Knights of Ren 20 times more screentime than 3 movies.
Rey is going to kill them all with a single look, defeat Kylo Ren and Darth Sidious in single combat and then she’s going to teach the force in the ways of Rey.
Yep, sounds like MaRey Sue alright.
Shut the fuck up.
This is hilarious
she will show the wae
Rey: right so what your gonna do is just do the thing right, like I did
Students: Yeah no we can't just do the fucking thing
Who wins
A group of dark jedi force users
One mary sue...
Mary sue
OH SHUT UP
@@da-vidcargill4975 it's true.
Mary "Rey" Sue
You don't know what a Mary Sue is do you?
I wonder which team would win in a fight, the Praetorian Guards, or the Knights of Ren
Snoke's Red Guards are elite warriors
5 minutes later
Killed by MaREY SUE without scratch.
Ah “Dark Jedi” or as I like to call them, “Sith Wannabes”
Love the calm end music to this video. Anyone know what it is?
Also I’m really glad you talk about Dark Jedi...it’s really interesting to see them show up in canon more and in diverse ways, like the Knights. Even if it has to be drip fed, they’ll appear somehow...!
Good takes.
I'm mad only because they took Rian Johnson for the Last Jedi.
This movie should be the 8th !!!!!!!!!!!!!!Not the last one
But the real question is that did all the other Jedi students die
I assume that'll be covered in the comic?
I'm pretty sure they said that while most died, some actually helped Ben in his little massacre, whether or not they're the Knights is another topic tho... there could be a load of fallen jedi students roaming about - or maybe Snoke had Kylo kill them to eliminate rivals...
Alex Felix In TLJ they said kylo took a handful of them , so it would only make sense if the knights of ren were the students🤷♂️
@@themanhimself3117 That would make sense. But didn't luke have a son too?? With that sith assassin sent to kill him but turned good and decided to ride him like Han rode the millennium falcon?? Or is that now star wars legends not canon?
@@jimdavies9354 that's legends but it's a good story
*Okay.... So where are the BLOODY lightsabers?!*
Perhaps they prefer not to use them, they aren't exactly required to like Jedi or Sith
High chance they don't have access to the materials to craft them
Noek the first order legit had control of ilium where they could’ve easily mined for crystals
@@caelemvaellerek9519 no they didn't. That world being Illum is just a theory.
Noek It’s close enough to the point where Disney will just confirm it.
"...a code...a code like a motorcycle gang.." 😂😂😂😂
Artemis Jones 😂😂😂😂😂
"A code." THESE IDIOTS DON'T HAVE ONE!!!! THEY JUST EXIST! AND DIE! THEY GET PWNED BY BEN SOLO IN SECONDS! BULL SH*T I KNOW RIGHT!?!?!!?!!
they did not get much screentime in episode 9. sad
Rey will lay waste to the whole team in a single battle.
r u done she wont, she was lucky to beat a weakened keylo
Da-vid Cargill think he was leading to the fact that they made Rey OP without even having to train at all with a Jedi master for a extended period of time
She had some advantage.....she trained all her life in combat.
In jakku
Mr. Dowdy pretty sure she just collected shit to sell so she could eat
That's a silly definition of a dark Jedi. To be one, you need to have been a Jedi before going full dark side. So the more accurate statement would be dark side using criminals.
J'acob Albers they also say a dark Jedi or knight of ren or whatever work alone and only personal gain matters to them...they are in a fucking group?? What the fuck, how are they gonna say they work alone then have a team of them
It it silly as fuck too!
Not necessarily, though that might be how the term came to be... before the Sith order came into existence (thanks to influence from the DJ) many Dark Side users were called Dark Jedi (not all yes, but also not only former Jedi).
I’m talking about the knights of ren dummy. And how the whole situation of being selfish and working alone is their definition and then they work in a team.
And I’m pretty sure we’re talking about the way they will use them in the movie, no one said legends bruh, thanks for the input anyway
I really enjoyed The Force Awakens especially the mystery surrounding The Knights of Ren. After seeing them during Rey’s vision I’ve been dying to learn more and see them in action. Naturally my excitement was mainly aimed towards seeing Luke, Han and Leia again but since Han died and with Luke and Leia being extremely underused I’m now back hoping that the Knights of Ren will get decent screen time and put on a good show!
Bet Rey kills them all or they all die to palpatine with no effort. God I love 5 years of build up that amounts to nothing
Ikr I think most of the people in the comments section could have made a better sequel trilogy.
For real though, but if Sidious doesn’t win in the rise of Skywalker imma snap
Khaleel Graham reys gunna destroy the most powerful sith in history. She will be the first person to ever beat him and when this happens I can’t wait to watch Disney burn
@@Crackmiser God I hope sidious kills Rey and brings back the empire
thats what happened to Palpatine in the Originals. stop complaining and hating. no1 complained about him back then
I love how they leave things out of the movies so they can just sell it to you in a comic book it’s like DLC for Cinema
Ok, so if they're dark jedi under the command of Ren and force training to an extent. What's more, apparently everything related to the First Order has been orchestrated by Palpatine who we also know has the capacity to manufacture crystals adequate enough on the small scale to be used in light sabers. So why are these idiots using regular melee weapons in a world of blasters, aoe weapons like thermal detonators, and other proper period weapons? To clarify, why the hell aren't literally all of them using light sabers as a standard even if they're only partially trained in them?
Because they are just thugs and don't know where any kaiba crystals planets are located nor do they know where any Jedi or Sith are buried... though in Rey's flashback they are supposed to have killed the Jedi at Luke's Academy so... Bad writing?
All i know, is "The Monk" looks fyukin awesome! I love his mask, kinda reminds me of our dark lord and master, Revan. For sure my favorite looking, cant wait to learn more.
His actual name is Ap'lek. His helmet (and axe) makes him so f*cking like the Grim Reaper.
HK-47 quote - ,,You are like a delightful random cruelty generator, master, poisoning all you touch with your presence".
I guess this is why the new trilogy feels so "edgy," it was never meant to be something grand like "light vs darkness" that the original trilogy has. The trilogy is about space thugs vs "true" force wielder.
And people confirm they don’t care about Disney trilogy as it is not canon
What about before, the game Jedi Knight 1 and 2? Kyle Katan fought and beat Dark Jedi that used the force and lightsabers... Do you consider that to be canon??? It was created by LucasArts after all.
@@jimdavies9354 That goes without saying... I am displeased you even brought it up. Kotor1+2 are also Canon.
@@jimdavies9354 That was before Disney, back when we had the relative freedom to do most whatever we want with this franchise. And are you saying there were Dark Jedi that didn't use the force or lightsabers?
@@Charolette21 Before Disney no, I believe while it was still in the hands of Lucas Film and LucasArts Dark Jedi used lightsabers and the force.
@@LawlTwins Forgive me master...
Damn What A Reveal!! Anticipation for Star Wars Rise Of Skywalker Doubled.
Take a shot every time he says 'Jedi'.
*You are already dead.*
Such a shame that we gotta learn this outside of the movies . Smh probably won’t even reflect the movies
Yes, the casual viewer or 10yr old kid is not going to know 40yr + of Star Wars content 🙄. I'm 49 & can barely track all this back story %=+&...
Thanks for putting that spoiler in the title. You know you could have atleast given us the option to know or not
Star Wars confirms that the knights of Ren are dark Jedi knights and use the force.
*since when are people surprised about this?*
When Sidious named Vader I just imagine Sidious get names like Vader or Maul from Sith text or even ancient Sith weapon.
Knights of nonexistenting
And the Star Wars fanbase finally CONFIRMS that we don't care because we've all taken shits more interesting than the backstories of the Knights of Ren.
😂
“Elite fighting group”
Praetorian guards: am I a joke to you
Rey: yes, you are
Wish they would been in Mandalorian searching for Gogru . I understand time line is different but good writers could done it. Plus would been cool if originally there was ten cut down till 6.
This movie better be three hours long or four
I was hoping that theyd be lightsaber users so their squad could give me kotor sith army vibes
Ben SWOLO and the Knights of SWOLLL
Just a small spoiler alert for Jedi Fallen order would be nice considering Dathomir is probably the planet most of us were looking forward to seeing the most
Wow, the writter knows about Dark Jedi, l'm shocked.
I really appreciate your channel. No bs, just straight facts and wholehearted adoration for Star Wars. I really appreciate people like you, keep it up!
I just hope we get AT LEAST 10 minutes of screen time for them.
They got 2 and 1/2 minutes of screen time 🤣
The Knights of Who/What?
Maybe I'd care if these characters had been set up in The Last Jedi
Cant wait to see how rey is gonna kill them all on her own
The weapons they're weilding has got to be sith weapons
Emperor Avery I’m betting that their weapons are made out of crotosis
I agree with you but the question would be is where and or with whom they got from.
Be 😎
@@N120Xeno
Would that be the same material used in Mandalorian armor? Because that would make sense.
Be 😎
David Welch maybe but I really doubt it because the metal the iconic Mandalorian armor is made out of is beskar and beskar is only found on Mandalor and its moon. They’ll need a mandalorian forget to make the armor as well but kylo might just rip it out of a forger and teach it to someone else. Overall it’ll be very difficult for them to get beskar unless the empire had stockpiles of it and was brought along when the remaining imperial forces retreated into the unknown regions. It’s unlikely but their is a slither of chance.
@@N120Xeno
Palpatine Royal Guard used a weapons that cam stop a lightsaber. Made by vibro-metal or something like that. And that's cannon.
Scratching my head after watching the movie
They could have made so many cool lightsabers for them. These knights have so much potential but it will never be realized
There so elite the movie hasn't used them at all
Sense they are dark Jedi they must have had lightsabers at one point why don't they use them?
Knowing the Knights of Ren can use the force, even to a lesser degree, I feel like I now know more than some fans before seeing the movie.
Might as well just call them "Jedi Pirates".
They elite
But they never defeat
But they will always beat Kylo rens meat
But can they confirm ROS won’t be the dumpster fire many storyline leaks claim it to be?
(I am looking forward to finally seeing the Knights of Ren )😖
I'm sure you're only going to see them like 5 minutes
el ALF 😖I know , the ultimate 3 movie dick tease
That’s grea- wait, I suddenly realized I don’t care. Maybe if they were important you would have-oh, wait that’s right Johnson wanted to tell his story.
Shit I forgot they were a thing
Ren stopping that blaster bolt was the most ridiculous thing I had ever seen. He would have to be able to manipulate light. He didn't do that against Rey. No jedi has ever been able to do that. That was when I was over his character.
Way to leave all the surprises for the movie, imagine leaving palpatine for the movie and no info on trailers?
Great can’t wait till Rey wipes them out in a blink of an eye...
Can't wait to finally see the Knights of Ren in action.
It would explain why kylo is the only one with the lightsaber. Because he is the master of the knights of ren. It is because it's so rare to get a kyber crystal now since starkiller base/ilum the place where the jedi usually get their kyber crystals is now destroyed. Assuming that it is ilum.
Then why the other Knights of Ren don't have lightsabers while Kylo Ren has his crossguard lightsaber?
Rarity of crystals and materials not to mention kylo ren can't really use a lightsaber well
@@Kruegerfan101emoandgothallowed and people said he was trained and rusty while fighting Rey...
@@KingShibe the fact that he was trained by Luke and still lost to a girl who has never used a lightsaber says a lot
@@Kruegerfan101emoandgothallowed well he was suffering from a wound, as well fought Finn before. Basically she was on defence most of the fight but got a sneaky hit in, as well it isn't like she isn't a stranger to melee combat.
Kylo could 't fight his way out of a wet paper bag using that lightsaber, @@Kruegerfan101emoandgothallowed.
Trained by Luke? No way. Trained by Snoke? No way. Kylo is very sloppy & amateurish.
I predict that in TROS: 2019 they come on screen & are all killed within 25sec, then no one mentions or brings up the KoR again. Much like D-J(The Last Jedi) or Maz or Captain Phasma.
Because the director got given all these awesome characters to continue stories with and fucking shat all over it, whos snoke? Fuck knows? Rey? Nobody apparently, phasma? 2 minutes of screen time, chewie? Used as a fucking joke, what they fucking did to luke. Leia? Stupid little flight sequence and kept her alive? The actress has passed away why would you keep her character alive with so many opportunities to quietly let her go with dignity and no fucking way to continue it, then the additions of random of other fuckers for no real reason for stupid story plots, like fuck that movie so hard, just makes it harder for this movie to be great when there's so much dumb shit they have to clean up
That didn't happen with DJs character.
@@PezzaHando Carrie Fischer died after it was filmed. They didn't know she was going to die. She was already filming ROS. Are you thick? They can't see the future.
@@coltonruscheinsky7863 They most definitely could have made changes friend it's called edits and reshoots
@@PezzaHando But why would they want to? That film was perfect. Even better than the mandalorian.
They're so elite an untrained jedi who barely knows the force beats their leader twice
@DejaVoodooDoll everytime because kylo is a whiny non villian
Vader should have spared the younglings so he can make them into his own personal group of followers
Real talk, the Knights of Ren don't look the slightest intimidating. They look like some edgy teens trying to be cool. At least give them some lightsabers instead of those weird weapons they're holding.
Stupendous!
I hope disney and JJ Abrams knows how much Rian Johnson screwed this trilogy. It actually had a chance after TFA...TLJ makes you think he didn't even watch TFA..I know this topic has been beaten to death but it's just so infuriating
Sooooo ... Where TF have they been for 2 whole movies while Kylo is running around by himself? Are they in an intensive multi-year scrabble game? Are they engrossed in a World of Warcraft tournament? Are they enjoying a hiatus on some Ibiza-like rave planet? RoS better explain who the heck they are & where they’ve been!!!
Okay but where are their lightsabers?
They don't use XD
@@ilikemyname7360 gay
Really excited for rise of Skywalker definitely going to own it on DVD
Joke?
Rise of Skywalker looks like trash, and it will be if the leaks are true.
What about the Dark Jedi that Kyle Katan encountered???
Give them all lightsabers and this movie will be the best starwars yet
Spoiler
Rey survives and kylo dies and anakin isn’t in the film but mace windu is
Source?
117MasterSpartan uwu
@@Crackmiser that's what I thought.
StarWarsLeaks
@@cobysmith3096 fake and gay. Same site and sources that had all these speculations about the last Jedi that got me all excited then I saw the movie and none of the cool shit was true so.
too late to put them in the movie. They’re probably gonna die and only get like 10 secs of screen time
Yep, be ready for trilogy characters to get on screen for only 30sec or less then get action figures, comics, novels 🙄. Thx JJ, KK, Lucasfilm.
MaRey Sue will dispose of them, quickly.
Ugh, who else just assumed they were Kylo’s boys/chronies from Luke’s Temple and hence fellow defectors? Like I pictured Kylo the star pupil of Luke and most popular like captain of the football team/their QB and when he bounced they joined up with him also, I mean it is the Knights of friggin REN (as in Kylo) lol come on now
Like that one dude from Harry Potter, Draco and his boys
Stupendous wave, great video! Enjoy your Wednesday!😍
At this point, it doesn't even matter anymore.
SW...
It is nice to finally get some backstory on the origins on the knights of Ren. I always figured they were force sensitive but it is good to see it confirmed.
Dark Jedi should know the Arts of the Jedi while practice dark side. So Learning from a Former Jedi that become a Dark Jedi to learn the Jedi Arts. Dark Siders don't need to be a Dark Jedi and Sith. Nightsisters are dark siders and yet don't know the Jedi Arts.
NNNNNNOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can't they just confirm this kind of stuff in the movie?
RalfsStuff no cause we need more mystery boxes
Ren is master of the Gray 😦...remember to thy self around them the dark Jedi 😨...especially when a Gray Jedi and a Sith Jedi r in the same time zone as well being Biologically kin😰...may the Force with u everyone 😔
Very interesting that some use blasters/hand cannons, and hopefully they’ll explain why some prefer blasters over melee weapons, and if they use either their old or updated dark side lightsabers w/ a red blade, if any at all
And great vid SW!
At this point with the sequel trilogy, who really cares
Christian Ledezma you got that right. Are we really going to care about these characters when they probably will be in this movie less than 30 seconds and be killed. But I’m sure you’ll get more in a book if you buy that too. PASS!!!
Nah ep8 killed the sequel trilogy for me, definitely won't see that shit show in theaters my slime
Chris Snyder No I won’t be told to shut up. And no I won’t be seeing this crap. If you want to see it be my guest. I don’t care. Buy and extra ticket and see it twice for me.
@@chrissnyder8415 The only person in this thread who needs to get over themselves is you. What, you think you're some intellectual warrior or some shit?
It's a public platform, anybody can say whatever they want. If you can't handle that, grow up.
Chris Snyder go drink your soy and calm yourself down. And I won’t shut up.
bet MaRey Sue will killl all of them
I just realized... Kylo Ren used Force Slow on Poe. That's why he couldn't move or anything, he was stuck.
Luke said Ben Solo left along with "a handful of my students" im curious if they aren't the knights as to what became of said students. Possibly experimented on?