@@kaileyhagen4621 as a nashvillian, a native of music city. Thankyou for this, I love my city and any shoutout to it lol now I can envision an ancient nashville in another dimension
Some postulates: The snow whales could fly by using their song. Kagranac's name contains the word for music and this is not a coincidence. Perhaps the whales were being studied for their tonal abilities.
Another theory could be that snow whales use their voices as some form of tonal manipulation. We already see it in real life whales when they moan in deep and long tones to communicate.
"City of singers" rather than "City of song"..? Maybe the skeletons were young snow whales and the long vertical chamber was some kind of nursery before the Dwemer capped it (leading to the whales extinction).
@@arnabkar8792 yeah I think song is a mistranslation or poetic interpretation of the original text. We already know they didn't think of music for entertainment so why would this word mean song in our modern interpretation of music. I also think the heart is another eye of magnus, or possibly a variation of it.
Theory on the snow whales: Whales in our world were hunted back in the day for industrial oil purposes, which was crucial for the industrial evolution. Maybe the omnious "dwarf oil" from the game is actually snow whale oil and the Dwemer bred them for that very purpose.
@El inodoro que habla they never even bothered with humans or other elves. If anything the oblivion crisis and thalmor are the worst things to have happened to humanity
@@Literallyryangosling777 Introduction 1. The Dwemer Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the Mer, Man and Beast folk races.
They went full "Vault Co." experimental slavery on the Snow Elves. So it wouldn't surprises me if there were further disputes with other Mer or Men and beastfolk. Disregarding the unearthing of the Heart of Lorkhan or the creation and downfall of the Dwarves by the Numiddium, of course. They and their ruins were all over Northern Tamriel, so it could've been possible.
I always turn the volume on his videos down to 20. It’s good to listen to on the other side of my house on max. Heck I think I can even hear it from outside
Ancient Nords: Manage to extinct snow whales from the skies. Modern era Dragonborn: Can't even lower the amount of dragons flying around after defeating Alduin.
well overtime the DragonBorn probably will make all dragons extinct. There are loads of dragons that were slain before the time Skyrim is set, and the DragonBorn is only one person, whilst the ancient nords were multiple people.
True. I have 61 dragon souls. I don't know what to do with them. No idea. Annoying Dragons keep spawning. At this point I just use Bend Will and ride them. 😂
not only that, but the cave that is linked to kagrenzel, has one of the insects in a jar, and a barenziah stone in the same cave. so the cave connecting it was also part of some other cut content. 2 really big cut content quests right beside each other.
I heard about this place and spent an embarrasing time trying to find it. It's so far removed it's not even visible on the compass from 'the 'edge' of the map
Well the dragonborn is also implied to be a shezzarine, or mortal incarnation of lorkhan, so if the kagnrenac city theory is correct, the orb may have detected the soul of lorkhan
Seeing as how the cave is filled with dead bodies, it implies nothing has made the bottom of the cage open up in quite a while, so why was the Dragonborn the first to make it open in such a long time? Kind of supports said theory.
When i was in the stony creek cave i saw the "secret entrance/exit" and looked on the local map and was like "yo thats leads to somewhere!" So i did some epic bethesda wall climbing then saw this video and saw i entered it backwards 😂😂😂
You're way more tenacious than me! I've been in stony creek so many times (gem, radiant quests, and general wandering in early years of playing), and it sure looked like it ought to be connected to something else, but I just gave it up as being unfinished/cut content. Kudos to you for not giving up so easily!
So many radiant quests have sent me through stony creek, I honestly thought that was the entrance for the longest time. Then I finally noticed how there was a undiscovered dwarven ruin on my map that I had somehow already cleared
That kagrenak connection is very, VERY interesting, because those bones at whalebone bridge aren't just any whalebones-They're Aedra Bones, the remains of Stuhn, brother of Tsun the shield-thane of Shor, or Lorkhan. If those bones in kagrenzel are the bones of aedra-like creatures, and kagrenzel is the city of kagren, then kagrenzel housed not only the heart of lorkhan but also aedra-like bones. *_And kagrenak said he was making a god._* What better way to make a god than with the bones of aedra-like creatures and the actual heart of an aedra?
"By refreshing my memory with "Divine Metaphysics," I believe I can explain. The Dwemer were not unified in their thinking. Kagrenac and his tonal architects, among them Bthuand Mzahnch, believed they could improve the Dwemer race. Others argued that the attempt would be too great a risk. The war with Nerevar and the Dunmer may have led Kagrenac to carry out his experiments prematurely. Although this book argues that nothing disastrous could result, the disappearance of my race argues otherwise." - Yagrum Bagarn. He says this in relation to a book called the Egg of Time in Elder Scrolls 3. He was not in Nirn at the time of the dwarves disappearing, meaning the disappearance was soley focused on Nirn and left him as a sole survivor, unfortunately he caught the corpus disease and ended up eventually falling himself. As for theories to where Kagrenac lived, Yagrum was one of his close friends and workmates so it would be reasonable to assume that they lived within the red mountain or atleast in the shared space of Vvardenfell, especially since Yagrum specifically states that Kagrenac's journals are within ruins on Vvardenfell. In fact this is further proven by both his journal and planbook being found in Morrowind, alongside sunder and keening which were core parts of his research. The theory behind the city being used to store a super weapon that had fallen out of use is possible, since in theory Kagrenac instead may have decided to use the heart of Lorkhan to turn the whole dwarven race into immortal gods. I am unclear on that part. Only one living character knows and he went off to Akavir and never came back.
I've been wondering what happened to the last dwarf, since he had corprus which made the victims (somewhat) immortal and the Nerevarine killed Dagoth Ur thus freeing the victims from his control. How come we've never heard from the dwarf and for that matter, the Nerevarine? What happened to them?
TY for your detailed explanation. It is quite possible that Kagrenac lived on Vvardenfell. I really like the theory that some huge machine was being stored there. The entire cave seems to have been purposely dug like a vertical shaft reminiscent of a missile silo. Why else dig a vertical shaft unless you want to store a vertical thing in it? Im pretty sure it was where Neumidium was assembled. :)
This is supported by the fact that you can find Kagrenac's workshop in Vvardenfel. I used the construction set (cheaty me) and found it as an interior area you can go to. You can also find some robot parts inside. Me and a friend spent a long time assembling the robot in the construction set (from now on I'll be referring to the construction set as CS) and it is huge. It's about twice as big as a Skyrim centurion. Data mining in the CS can be really rewarding sometimes. Especially with lore contributions like this. It looks nothing like a centurion either. P.S. The peices are lD'ed as "mech parts" too, so that might mean something.
You also forgot the aphorism from one of the Dwemer fairy tales, the only that that is genuine: "Many can build a golem, but only a true master can become a golem". Yes, that's the disappearance of the dwarves and what the Heart's power was used for.
I remember discovering this ruin fairly early in my first playthrough. None of my friends that played had found it yet, and there was hardly anything posted about it online. The curiosity turned my first character into role playing a dwemer focused archeologist. Seeking out every ruin on the map and scouring blackreach for any hint.
Considering the city is set so remotely, I could see it being a research center away from tonal pollution, like how telescopes / observatories are high on mountains to minimize light pollution.
Heck, the security system could be checking that visitors wouldn’t mess with the tonal studies. Dragonborn, being semi-divine and tonally resonance with the Thuum, would be allowed instead of your average bandit. Or it’s searching for divinity, since the dwemer considered themselves equal to the divines. Divinity and tonal resonance might actually be connected.
You cant imagine my disappointment when I thought it was going to be a old, ancient and huge dwemer ruin but turns out just to be your casual falmer cave, with no secret rooms or doors, and not even the interior is even dwemer.
True and let me tell you this around Windhelm somewhere is an unmarked location with an ancient Nord table. There for the first time I encountered The Wisp Mother. Damn never seen her ever again. It's as mysterious as another ruin near Windhelm from where you get the Helm of Yngol that unlocks with a coral dragon claw which you again find randomly at winterhold from some bar maid I guess.
@@lusciouslunk I don't know, that's the only time I have seen a wisp mother. I have completed each and every single quest. And my character is level 80.
Okay so I noticed a few things in this, and you should hear this out. 1) there's An expert locked chest at the bottom of the lake you fall in, which is extremely filled with overpowered loot. 2) those whale bones we see in the map - if you look at the spines of them sideways, it looks like there's letters on them, maybe dwarven alphabet or language of the dovah . 3) I totally agree with all these theories, you have just changed my life mate, thanks.
Ive always been curious what the "Market" was that is connected to black reach. Never seemed like a Market atmosphere to me. And I dont think the Falmer are buying and selling goods to each other...( that would be werid to run up on. A blind Falmer who dosnt know you are there; trying to sell items like Brynolf , but more clicking / alien like noises.)
Good point! Their economy seems pretty communal. The mushrooms just seem to grow wild, the chauruses are prolific breeders so that can't take much effort, so all they need are tent makers and blacksmiths. They must get their armor from a central location or else the smiths are hiding in those Falmer holes in the walls. Weird that they don't use more Dwemer weapons.
I thought of it as being the roman version, a place where people meet and everyday life goes on. There's even typical arenas seen there, places that would be places for meetings and discussions in the roman equivalent. What we think of as "Market" would just be the commercial bit but to the romans it was alot more. It's atleast the impression I had.
"The orb must have subjected those nearby bandits to the same test. However, rather than let them down, it murdered them to death for some reason. Why?" *ad starts* "ACCIDENTS HAPPEN."
Been paying for TH-cam for a couple years now.... it’s literally a couple bucks a month, and haven’t seen an ad since. I’m retired/stay-at-home so watch like 8 hrs of random stuff per day on the second monitor while playing games . Well worth the money.
I always like anything starting “...but what if....?” or “....could it really be that....?”, makes me feel like I’m watching Elder Scrolls Ancient Aliens
ehh arguable. Lorkhan seems to be a very complex et'ada/isn't as simple as "no" "i am not", etc like the numidiam was. Mind you that is very much within lorkhan's sphere, but he is also about space, limitation, and various other things. Numidiam's whole sphere is literally just rejection of everything. Mannimarco literally uses it in daggerfall to ascend by likely just going "i am a mortal" to numidiam and having it go "NO" and then bamn he's not a mortal. mind you thats a very simple way of thinking of the logistics, but the point stands that its whole role is to literally just reject. Someone skilled like mannimarco can use it to ascend, someone who is a power hungry tyrant like talos will use it to commit genocide and break space/time while using it as a literal giant robot and curb stomping shit with it
@@floridaball4896 he became a God similar to Mannimarco, using the Numidiam to cause Dragon Break, making himself a 9th Divine, it is you, that bought into Tiber Septim's BS lies on how he became a God. the Thalmor are wrong about many things even the idea of man becoming a God, but they weren't wrong about Talos Techinically not being one, he is only one because he literally used a machine that the Dwemer used to help themselves become gods, but instead of disappearing like the Dwemer, it worked for Tiber Septim, just like the 3 living gods of Morrowind didn't disappear when they tapped the Heart of Lorkhan
I actually entered this place in reverse by whirlwind sprinting from a pile of rocks opposite the hidden entrance. Didn’t know there was the ruin above until a while later.
Exactly, I was in this ruin countless times, but always went in from the bandid cave. Never in my innumerable amounts of hours in my playthrough have I seen Orby.
I’ve got my own theory. First the giant skeletons could have been dragon skeletons in a massive dragon burial ground. We know that dragons can live forever, so they could potentially grow to infinite size. The consistent size of dragons we see in game is probably just because of engine limitations. The dwemmer could have excavated it hoping to learn more about dragon shouts, which are a form of tonal manipulation. After excavating it, kagranec could have used it to store the numidium and study dragonshouts at the same time. Th orb could be identifying you through your use of tonal manipulation with dragon shouts. The falmer could be workers who helped construct the numidium.
If there should be dragon skeletons, why not use them but mammoth skeletons instead? Goes just the same as with the whales. Maybe we have to wait for another game in which the lore is lifted before we can understand what bethesda intented.
@@philipphammer3474 as far as I can tell this dwemer ruin is in the vanilla game and the first appearance we had of actual Dragon skeletons aside from the dead ones we kill is in the dragonborn DLC so as a substitute they would more than likely use giant Mammoth bones
First of all, I love these videos. This attention to detail when explaining Skyrim's secrets and interesting features is amazing. One correction though. The local maps are not hand drawn. They are generated from a top down view of the level geometry. Which of course makes the placement of those bones in the level no less intentional. But the renderings on the local map are actually just representations of the models seen when falling down that shaft. You can check that by using 'tcl' in the console and position your character inside such a rib cage to see the position indicator on the map line up with the rendering of the bones.
Isn’t the dovahkiin sometimes refereed to as the “avatar of shore” you know the god, maybe the orb is there to recognize godlike souls/very powerful souls to power the numidium, just a thought.
@@shiteyanyo1111 yes, you are Shor. To be exact, every protagonist of TES' main series is a Shezzarine. Lorkhan made Nirn, and he just keeps his shameless self-inserting in the moments of crisis. Oh, and that also makes you an avatar of Sithis.
@@crispycronchy5887 An afterlife. Created by God. A God who is dead. In a universe, where we’ve never seen evidence that gods go back to the afterlife they created when they die. What I said makes perfect sense
This has to be some kind of omen. This ruin has always stuck with me ever since Skyrim first came out and is part of my own elder scroll idea. It's great that even after all this time this secluded and mysterious place can be covered in an interesting light.
TES Enthusiast that there's more to the first level then that room. Oddly enough most of the idea came from a dream that I had which involved more then one lexicon and the orb deactivating the trap instead of dropping the player
@@Real_Eggman I'm assuming you haven't played morrowind, the cliff racers were a bunch of flying creatures that suck to deal with. (Quick summary of them as an enemy)
Speaking of kagrunzel, I once went in there not knowing about the giant fall, and was surprised when the ground opened up. At that point I still had no idea it was such a deep fall because I didn’t get to experience it. I fell a good distance and then I touched the bucket that falls with me with my feet. I died instantly. It mistook it for fall damage. Didn’t go back until I watched another video and was like woooww I missed out on that lmao.
I just have to geek out for just a moment. I’ve been playing Skyrim since it first came out. But I’ve been watching your videos for over a year and I love them! I’ve actually downloaded mods you’ve recommended and I love how in depth you are with not only Skyrim but Fallout as well (which I play a great deal of) your videos keep me occupied and I learn so much! Keep it up cause I want to see more!
Same. I started on the 360, I've beaten it twice and STILL havent truly did all the things I'd like to do on it. Especially a lot of the alchemist stuff. So much content to explore and enjoy
2:18 Technically, there are a couple quests that lead to Kagrenzel. Stony Creek Cave is also part of multiple quests. If someone were to be looking at the map of Stony Creek Cave while exploring it, they would have been able to see the tunnel leading to Kagrenzel. So it's not entirely by chance that you would stumble upon it.
Those dwarven heads totally reminded me as well. And with Bethesda essentially linking Skyrim and Fallout, it wouldn't surprise me if Kagronak was successful and the Dunwich Old God is actually the Numidium, whispering, groaning, and overall doing its best to manipulate its targets to do its bidding.
What if the link between the Elder Scrolls and Fallout series is the dwemer? What if the dwemer didn't disappear, but were thrown through time far forward or behind and those ancient cities were made by them? Then those busts would look a lot like the ones we see in dwemer architecture, wouldn't it?
Awesome analysis as always! This ruin is easily one of the most stand-out experiences for me out of all my playtime in Skyrim. Found it completely by accident 6 or 7 years after release, went in with my Bosmer character and her companion Meeko, got dumped into that cavern and was petrified Meeko wouldn't survive the fall (he did, thank the gods), and by the time they saw the sun again, I had no idea what I'd just been through, or why it was even there. Underwhelming, maybe, but still loved rediscovering that sense of unknown adventure in Skyrim again.
I actually went into Kagrenzel because of the sidequest from dawnguard in search for blueprints on crossbows and bolts. That alarm, if you touch the light totally jump scared me in my first visit because nothing like this is in any other dungeon.
The name Kagrenzel is similar to the Dwemer ruin in Solstheim called Kagrumez which also traps the player in a cage once the middle pedestal is activated. The player is then attacked by waves of mechs in a Colosseum type battle where you can see that the Dwemer had viewing areas above the chamber almost for entertainment purposes. When I first found Kagrumez I noted that it sounded familiar and once those Darwven bars came up around me I distinctly remembered Kagrenzel and looked down in anticipation of being dropped.
I’d probably consider that more along the lines of training or research than entertainment. The Dwarfs weren’t known for their love of blood sports. The similarity of the names and situations is interesting though.
RhianKristen idk, there was a little arena in Blackreach that had a sort of stage with spinning dwarven blades, which makes me think it was an arena where the battle ground had “hazards.” We know the falmer can’t build dwarven machines, so dwarves had to have set it up.
I get the impression that the place would be a whale corral. I wouldn’t be surprised if part of the roof opened up to allow young whales in and out. I imagine a bunch of singing whales would make it musical in several ways. And might be conducive to tonal experiments.
Snow whales snow whales, pretty big and pretty wide they were farmed by Dwemer for their flight Like a giant flying Dragonborne, they have a kickass vocal horn, I hope Bethesda hears our plea; make the next game feature ye!
So what's the difference between "ze" and "zel" in dwarven language? For clarification: There's a dwarven city called "Kemel-Ze" in Morrowind which translates to "Cliff City", but shouldn't that mean that "zel" means something else?
I keep hearing about the "hit or miss" of Flying snow whales. But there's potentially very strong evidence of them in Ysgramor's Tomb. At the end of the dungeon, above his sarcophagus. A whale appearing to be suspended in the clouds. But to the left, a boat in the water???
The whalebone bridge of Sovngarde is the body of the dead god Stuhn, brother of Tsun and Shield-Thane of Shor. In Old Nordic totemic worship, on which much of the imagery in barrows is based, Stuhn's totem was the whale. The whale mural in Ysgramor's tomb is indeed a reference to Stuhn as well. There are models and art of such murals in that style for each of the Nordic gods, which were never fully utilized as intended by the developers. That's not to say there isn't some potential connection between Stuhn and the snow whales--a dead god and an extinct species--but the presence of these two bits of whale imagery is firmly tired to Stuhn.
@@james737er Kagrenac was the chief tonal architect of the Dwemer. Tonal architects used a type of magic based on sound to create machinery. It's less of a stretch and more...literally what Kagrenac did.
It astounds me that I've been watching you for years and yet I still find videos that I haven't seen to this day. I just can't believe how much content about this game you've really put out that's amazing
A concept: The whale bridge is one whole item, instead of parts. Whereas the mammoth comes in parts, so they found it more mysterious to use the mammoth bones instead
We do know where the numidium was built, under Red Mountain on Vardenfell in the same cave where Dagoth Ur was building his new one. That's the whole reason the Chimer attacked the Dwemer fortresses there, they sought to stop Kagrenacs work by force. The local maps in skyrim are also not hand drawn, they are dynamically generated by the game.
When I first ran into this place I was SO confused and very weirded out at whatever was heppening when the cage appeared, and the orb of light started circling me.
I absolutely love the mystery behind the Dwemer, and I love the way you investigate and come to these conclusions, that I like to believe are very close to the truth. I honestly hope the mystery of the Dwemer is never solved just to keep watching your videos.
I accidentally found kagrenzal from randomly exploring stony creek cave. I’ve played Skyrim for a long time and had no clue this was part of some strange ruin
Dylan Dog the dragons of atmora presumedly left for other placed. Implications about Ysgrimor and the dragon cult make a lot of sense, and if most of the dragon cult moved to Skyrim with the atmorans there must therefor be no more dragons in Atmora. That being said, food for thought: Alduin was the first dragon and new where atmora was. No one knows how to find atmora anymore. If Alduin had fled for atmora Alduin probably could have just literally outlived the dragonborn and came back to do his shit later.
@@AngelNearDestruction No, you're wrong. Talos went to Atmora and met with a Giant who was high king of Atmora. People can find it, they just need to sail north.
Kagrenac resided strictly in Vvardenfell. The Numidium was kept under Red Mountain, and that's where it stayed inactive until Tiber Septim received it from the Tribunal after the Armistice. Kagrenzel was likely, in my personal opinion, simply an outpost or fort where the Dwemer of Clan Kagren (the clan that ruled over Skyrim at the time) mined for resources within the Velothi Mountains to be distributed to other colonies. Kagrenzel's namesake comes from.. well, obviously Orby. Who probably served as a security system against those who did not wield tonal magic.
OMG I stumbled across the stony creek cave the other day and saw that back entrance and was like "ok, I'll go outside and try to find the other entrance then, because it probably has one and I wanna explore it" and, after exploring for a long while, I stumbled upon Kagrenzel and my immediate reaction was "nope, this will certainly put me in blackreach again". I turned around and left, and I didn't continue to search for the entrance because I thought "well surely I'll have a quest sooner or later that'll tell me where it is"...
What if the Dwemer was taken back in time where no other elves or nords lived in Tamriel yet? It isn't a far-fetch because no one knew how the Dwarves got in Tamriel even before the snow-elves or nords came. And in the process they lost all their knowledge so they work hard again just to end up in the same fate, vanishing again and again like a timeloop.
I was under the impression that, like all Elves, the Dwemer came from the Aldmer, which eventually evolved into the different forms of Elf we know today. Furthermore, it does appear that they went forward. I think people would have noticed in the past, and the Dwemer wouldn't have let the Nords and Fumner become what they became seeing as it led to the Dwemer disappearing.
Kieranite FM112 No, that's why i added that their memory about the heart of lorkhan, them disappearing, etc. is removed from their mind. So they start back again, square one and re-do all they've done just to get telported back in time.
This is exactly the video I wanted. No, really. I was also really curious about this place, but would have never guessed about the Dwemer language, and I'm not quite well-versed enough in lore to remember the scientist in question. Though I did know about the Numidium. That's kinda hard to forget.
I think there was a side quest in ESO: Elsweyr, where some strange Nord woman mentions flying whales or some strange shit. I think she was on the Skooma. LOL
This reminds me very much of the Deep Ones from Oblivion! They were part of the Hackdirt quest, which were it's Lovecraftian influences on its sleeve. Any Lovecraft fan would recognize the quest name "Shadow Over Hackdirt" and understand the reference to Shadow Over Innsmouth. But what's really interesting to me, is that in the Hackdirt caves, you could hear growling and rumbling noises from behind some caved in rocks, indicating that the Deep Ones, whatever they are, *are still there*. It's not hard to draw a parallel between these large bones and rumblings in a subterranean location and the Deep Ones of Hackdirt.
8:33 Maybe that explains their airships; Snow whale flight was powered by something, yes? Maybe the dwemer harvested that material to build airships on.
Personally I want to see an elder scrolls, where the dwemer (seeing that defeat was imminent) decided to leave for a time to bolster their forces. And then they come back to eliminate the thalmor, and restore the falmer in exchange for their help. And then they become the big bad. I would also like to see them and falmer become playable races... That's just what I want to see
you are my go to guy for Fallout and Skyrim lore. I know I can always read up on the lore but waht's the fun in that when I can watch your videos that make the lore so clear.
I really hope we find out more about the dwemer in es6, the dwemer and what happened to jyggalag after we took his place in the shivering isles dlc in es4. Skyrim basically confirmed that to be canon at the start of sheos quest, so whatever happened to jyggalag? What happened to the dwarves? Two very important disappearances with zero clear answers.
“Not everything we say is always true. Sometimes, even we developers speak out of personal beliefs and idealisms about certain aspects of TES. And it is NOT always correct…. many times, it is INcorrect purposely.” - Gary Noonan And there are some things best left unanswered. As good as it is to learn secrets, there are also certain times when you need that secret to remain a secret. So perhaps the Disappearance of the Dwemer is one of those; it is never intended to be revealed.
I really imagine the whales in the "music city", since whales are well known for their sing Maybe the whales were kinda masters of tonal magic, just as dragons are masters of the voice (even there would have been pretty logic that nords annihilate the whales, they were in "competition" with the dragons they worshipped)
Fun bit. This quest can potentially be involved in the “retrieve dwarven schematics” quest given by Sorine in the dawnguard as a radiant location. The schematic being located at top of the waterfall in Stony Creek cave (the quest marker will direct you to Stony Creek and not this ruin. Which, from stony creek is unreachable without some Whirlwind Sprint cheese.)
Just a thought about the etymology and morphology n stuff. Kagren-ac, kagren and Kagren-zel have all the same radix, you know, which makes me think they just made up kagren as a word for music/tune/tone something like that, and used it, in Kagrenac's case at least, for the name of dwarven greatest tonal architect. The same radix in Kagrenzel can then be explained by either or both; kagren in Kagrenac, kagren as music or both, because its the most important concept in dwemer culture and most important dwemer connected to it.
The Sightless Pit in Skyrim is a bit like this dungeon. As far as I remember, no quests are attached to it, but it does feature a strange dwarven ruin in it if I remember correctly. Might be something worth investigating in a future video.
Q: Do we know enough about the Dwarvish language to support a reading of Kgrenak's City opposed to [music]'s city? I ask because (in High School) a friend read "the Hellespont" as "the Sea of the Hellenes" rather than "Sea of Helle" -- not understanding the differences involved. Q: Is it possible the dwarves also developed the Shout, or even were taught thus by the dragons?
Small correction: the local maps are NOT hand-drawn. Rather the engine just takes the outlines of the first objects it can "see" from above and plops them in. This is why it sometimes seems like you should be able to explore a rockfall further, but when you delete the rocks you find it's a dead end. Fallout 4 works the same way. The reason why it perhaps *looks* like maps are hand-drawn is because there is a simple plane you can put above the objects in the cell in order to hide them from the minimap. Some mazes, if I recall correctly, feature these to foil any cheating -- the player icon is standing in a void on such a minimap. The reason you can see this far outside the playable section in this particular cell is most likely due to time constraints.
It took me all morning climbing around to find this place!!! But now I'm ready, and I'm goin' in!!!
HECC YES, OUR SKYRIM GRANDMA IS GOING ON ANOTHER ADVENTURE!!
SKYRIM GRANDMA! I LOVE YOU AND WISH YOU LUCK DURING THESE TIMES
Good luck Shirley, I'm 'going in' later today, weather too nice to leave the garden at the moment.
Go Shirley!! Happy adventures!!
SKYRIM GRANDMA! Good luck with the dungeons and dragons in Skyrim
The biggest mystery of skyrim is how much more content Nate can squeeze out of it.
The answer: YES
Yes. Lol. TRUE.
As long as some game character gets murdered to death I'm fine with it.
Just imagine when 6 comes out
@Lord Sheogorath where is the book ;P need it
@Lord Sheogorath where are those books?
"Zel means City, and [...] Kagren can mean music"
So Kagrenzel is .... Funky town?
It's Nashville
its florida
@StinkyPirates It fits hilariously well
@@kaileyhagen4621 as a nashvillian, a native of music city. Thankyou for this, I love my city and any shoutout to it lol now I can envision an ancient nashville in another dimension
🎶Won't you take me dooown 🎶
🎶Down to ka-gren-zeeeel🎶
Some postulates:
The snow whales could fly by using their song.
Kagranac's name contains the word for music and this is not a coincidence.
Perhaps the whales were being studied for their tonal abilities.
Another theory could be that snow whales use their voices as some form of tonal manipulation. We already see it in real life whales when they moan in deep and long tones to communicate.
Yeah, maybe kagranac means master of tones or something, and it's not his real name. And the city was actually called the city of tones.
"City of singers" rather than "City of song"..? Maybe the skeletons were young snow whales and the long vertical chamber was some kind of nursery before the Dwemer capped it (leading to the whales extinction).
@@arnabkar8792 yeah I think song is a mistranslation or poetic interpretation of the original text. We already know they didn't think of music for entertainment so why would this word mean song in our modern interpretation of music. I also think the heart is another eye of magnus, or possibly a variation of it.
This is a fuckin gojira song
Theory on the snow whales: Whales in our world were hunted back in the day for industrial oil purposes, which was crucial for the industrial evolution. Maybe the omnious "dwarf oil" from the game is actually snow whale oil and the Dwemer bred them for that very purpose.
The dwermer society has been the worst thing that happend to humanity
@El inodoro que habla they never even bothered with humans or other elves. If anything the oblivion crisis and thalmor are the worst things to have happened to humanity
@@eggmug562 industrial dwemer society and it's future
@@Literallyryangosling777 Introduction
1. The Dwemer Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the Mer, Man and Beast folk races.
They went full "Vault Co." experimental slavery on the Snow Elves. So it wouldn't surprises me if there were further disputes with other Mer or Men and beastfolk. Disregarding the unearthing of the Heart of Lorkhan or the creation and downfall of the Dwarves by the Numiddium, of course. They and their ruins were all over Northern Tamriel, so it could've been possible.
Whales are known for their nearly magical singing.
Yelling want to shit doesn't consider singing -_-
@@comeatme6ro413 I think English might be his/her second language.
Adele,lizzo, etc
@@justnoob8141
Shut up
Pill Cosby For what? You don’t have stomach?
I accidentally turned up the volume so my ears got blasted with: HEY HOWS IT GOING GUYS
sort of like with jacksepticeye
I always turn the volume on his videos down to 20. It’s good to listen to on the other side of my house on max. Heck I think I can even hear it from outside
Same
Bruh got done listening to music so felt u
Is it such a bad thing?
Ancient Nords: Manage to extinct snow whales from the skies. Modern era Dragonborn: Can't even lower the amount of dragons flying around after defeating Alduin.
well overtime the DragonBorn probably will make all dragons extinct. There are loads of dragons that were slain before the time Skyrim is set, and the DragonBorn is only one person, whilst the ancient nords were multiple people.
@@alt-f4 I think the commenter was making a joke :) at least it made me giggle
@@alt-f4 also there's dragons in Akavir that are just hanging out
@@evak5673 all of the akaviri dragons are dead...the tseaci and the Tao people killed all of them
True. I have 61 dragon souls. I don't know what to do with them. No idea. Annoying Dragons keep spawning. At this point I just use Bend Will and ride them. 😂
This makes the College of Winterhold even more upsetting. They had all of the stuff already build. All they needed to do was add some quests.
they had the simple part done and only needed to do the complicated part...
not only that, but the cave that is linked to kagrenzel, has one of the insects in a jar, and a barenziah stone in the same cave. so the cave connecting it was also part of some other cut content. 2 really big cut content quests right beside each other.
The Dwemer actually named their cities by stepping on LEGOs and writing down whatever they called out
Why is this so funny
"Anyways, the secret to our inteligence is- KAGRENZEL!"
ALFTAND!
I literally laughed out loud.
This is how im gonna name my kid
The cliffracers are back!! Never mind Alduin, this is priority.
We must pray that Saint Jiub is gonna return to send them back where they came from
That was my first thought! Why would you download a mod to bring them back? The sounds they make still haunt my memory
Calvin Schuster He’s in the soul cairn, no one can save you from the cliffracers now!
Someone call the Saint from his recording booth
th-cam.com/video/rTeVz6rP6r4/w-d-xo.html
Back? Were they ever gone? And please just cast a target spell on them and watch them fall through the sky. Or just I dunno... use a bow?
Finally a place i didn't know exists and i've played this game for thousand hours.
I heard about this place and spent an embarrasing time trying to find it. It's so far removed it's not even visible on the compass from 'the 'edge' of the map
I just stumbled into it my first time playing
@@ShawnCorn same 😂
Same tbqh
I don't blame you
Well the dragonborn is also implied to be a shezzarine, or mortal incarnation of lorkhan, so if the kagnrenac city theory is correct, the orb may have detected the soul of lorkhan
woah
I think you just answered that question
Interesting thought
Seeing as how the cave is filled with dead bodies, it implies nothing has made the bottom of the cage open up in quite a while, so why was the Dragonborn the first to make it open in such a long time?
Kind of supports said theory.
Ta’varen
When i was in the stony creek cave i saw the "secret entrance/exit" and looked on the local map and was like "yo thats leads to somewhere!" So i did some epic bethesda wall climbing then saw this video and saw i entered it backwards 😂😂😂
best way not to get pregnant right there......
You're way more tenacious than me! I've been in stony creek so many times (gem, radiant quests, and general wandering in early years of playing), and it sure looked like it ought to be connected to something else, but I just gave it up as being unfinished/cut content. Kudos to you for not giving up so easily!
So many radiant quests have sent me through stony creek, I honestly thought that was the entrance for the longest time. Then I finally noticed how there was a undiscovered dwarven ruin on my map that I had somehow already cleared
i entered the cave from the bandit side and i never noticed that there was a second entrance in there XD
I did the exact same thing. Found it by going through Stony Creek cave.
That kagrenak connection is very, VERY interesting, because those bones at whalebone bridge aren't just any whalebones-They're Aedra Bones, the remains of Stuhn, brother of Tsun the shield-thane of Shor, or Lorkhan. If those bones in kagrenzel are the bones of aedra-like creatures, and kagrenzel is the city of kagren, then kagrenzel housed not only the heart of lorkhan but also aedra-like bones.
*_And kagrenak said he was making a god._*
What better way to make a god than with the bones of aedra-like creatures and the actual heart of an aedra?
The Heart of Lorkhan is (was) in Vvardenfell
If it’s not the cloud district I don’t want it
Nazeem hi I'm the dragon born huge fan it's an honour to meet you
Nobody cares Nazeem.
I'll use you're soul to enchant my boots so you can get there on the reg!
Did you behead him when he claimed that there was no pussy in the cloud district?
Your comments make these videos better
so I just went to Kagrenzel during a playthrough, and while falling my character hit a jug and died. I just fell on the floor and laughed
Ive been killed by random shovel before, never been so sad, but ive never laughed so hard before
Hm. I should do that next time I bring a hero into my kingdom and he or she tries to attack me like a couple of Hero of Kvatches attempted...
fun fact if irl you fall into the water and hit a news paper floating on the surface it will be almost as hard as falling on concrete floor
Bethesda games be like that. In Fallout 3, I fast traveled somewhere and a car fell from the sky, exploded, and killed my character. 🤣
@@kumakena Now thats hilairous😂😭
"Hi, im Nate, and Skyrim is the oldest anarchy server in minecraft."
2 arrows 2 knees 2a2k
Cole McGuire (STUDENT) no it’s not
@@fxd4163 Look at Nate's most viewed video.
Didn't expect this here lmao
No lollyggaging!
"By refreshing my memory with "Divine Metaphysics," I believe I can explain. The Dwemer were not unified in their thinking. Kagrenac and his tonal architects, among them Bthuand Mzahnch, believed they could improve the Dwemer race. Others argued that the attempt would be too great a risk. The war with Nerevar and the Dunmer may have led Kagrenac to carry out his experiments prematurely. Although this book argues that nothing disastrous could result, the disappearance of my race argues otherwise." - Yagrum Bagarn. He says this in relation to a book called the Egg of Time in Elder Scrolls 3. He was not in Nirn at the time of the dwarves disappearing, meaning the disappearance was soley focused on Nirn and left him as a sole survivor, unfortunately he caught the corpus disease and ended up eventually falling himself. As for theories to where Kagrenac lived, Yagrum was one of his close friends and workmates so it would be reasonable to assume that they lived within the red mountain or atleast in the shared space of Vvardenfell, especially since Yagrum specifically states that Kagrenac's journals are within ruins on Vvardenfell. In fact this is further proven by both his journal and planbook being found in Morrowind, alongside sunder and keening which were core parts of his research.
The theory behind the city being used to store a super weapon that had fallen out of use is possible, since in theory Kagrenac instead may have decided to use the heart of Lorkhan to turn the whole dwarven race into immortal gods. I am unclear on that part. Only one living character knows and he went off to Akavir and never came back.
I've been wondering what happened to the last dwarf, since he had corprus which made the victims (somewhat) immortal and the Nerevarine killed Dagoth Ur thus freeing the victims from his control. How come we've never heard from the dwarf and for that matter, the Nerevarine? What happened to them?
Ok chill dude to much for braing
TY for your detailed explanation. It is quite possible that Kagrenac lived on Vvardenfell. I really like the theory that some huge machine was being stored there. The entire cave seems to have been purposely dug like a vertical shaft reminiscent of a missile silo. Why else dig a vertical shaft unless you want to store a vertical thing in it?
Im pretty sure it was where Neumidium was assembled. :)
This is supported by the fact that you can find Kagrenac's workshop in Vvardenfel. I used the construction set (cheaty me) and found it as an interior area you can go to. You can also find some robot parts inside. Me and a friend spent a long time assembling the robot in the construction set (from now on I'll be referring to the construction set as CS) and it is huge. It's about twice as big as a Skyrim centurion. Data mining in the CS can be really rewarding sometimes. Especially with lore contributions like this. It looks nothing like a centurion either.
P.S. The peices are lD'ed as "mech parts" too, so that might mean something.
You also forgot the aphorism from one of the Dwemer fairy tales, the only that that is genuine: "Many can build a golem, but only a true master can become a golem".
Yes, that's the disappearance of the dwarves and what the Heart's power was used for.
I remember discovering this ruin fairly early in my first playthrough. None of my friends that played had found it yet, and there was hardly anything posted about it online. The curiosity turned my first character into role playing a dwemer focused archeologist. Seeking out every ruin on the map and scouring blackreach for any hint.
It's pretty clear now almost ten years in that the amount of cut content may overshadow the amount of actual content.
@@quesoquesadila6094
Deez nuts
What mod??
@@cameron4994
Deez nuts
I find that as awesome. And it all leads to stuff like this.
It was Bethesda's lost goldmine for dlcs to flesh em out
@@cameron4994 cutting room floor
Considering the city is set so remotely, I could see it being a research center away from tonal pollution, like how telescopes / observatories are high on mountains to minimize light pollution.
Love this hypothesis.
Heck, the security system could be checking that visitors wouldn’t mess with the tonal studies. Dragonborn, being semi-divine and tonally resonance with the Thuum, would be allowed instead of your average bandit.
Or it’s searching for divinity, since the dwemer considered themselves equal to the divines. Divinity and tonal resonance might actually be connected.
Maybe whatever creature the skeletons were used tonal manipulation like Dragons and the dwarfs were studying them.
@@pinkwings8036 perhaps it allowed the dragon born down as a suitable specimen, a naturally tonal skilled creature for the dwemer to study
Everytime I watch one of your intros I imagine you surrounded by thesauruses, frantically searching for a new synonym for giant.
I kill the Thesauruses, and turn their bones into boots.
Ribbitgoesthedog Lastnamehereyeah you good?
You cant imagine my disappointment when I thought it was going to be a old, ancient and huge dwemer ruin but turns out just to be your casual falmer cave, with no secret rooms or doors, and not even the interior is even dwemer.
True and let me tell you this around Windhelm somewhere is an unmarked location with an ancient Nord table. There for the first time I encountered The Wisp Mother. Damn never seen her ever again. It's as mysterious as another ruin near Windhelm from where you get the Helm of Yngol that unlocks with a coral dragon claw which you again find randomly at winterhold from some bar maid I guess.
@@InfernoBlast-th1ot isn’t the wisp mother a generic reoccurring enemy or am I stupid? I may be stupid
@@lusciouslunk I don't know, that's the only time I have seen a wisp mother. I have completed each and every single quest. And my character is level 80.
Okay so I noticed a few things in this, and you should hear this out. 1) there's An expert locked chest at the bottom of the lake you fall in, which is extremely filled with overpowered loot.
2) those whale bones we see in the map - if you look at the spines of them sideways, it looks like there's letters on them, maybe dwarven alphabet or language of the dovah
.
3) I totally agree with all these theories, you have just changed my life mate, thanks.
Ive always been curious what the "Market" was that is connected to black reach. Never seemed like a Market atmosphere to me. And I dont think the Falmer are buying and selling goods to each other...( that would be werid to run up on. A blind Falmer who dosnt know you are there; trying to sell items like Brynolf , but more clicking / alien like noises.)
Good point! Their economy seems pretty communal. The mushrooms just seem to grow wild, the chauruses are prolific breeders so that can't take much effort, so all they need are tent makers and blacksmiths. They must get their armor from a central location or else the smiths are hiding in those Falmer holes in the walls. Weird that they don't use more Dwemer weapons.
I thought of it as being the roman version, a place where people meet and everyday life goes on. There's even typical arenas seen there, places that would be places for meetings and discussions in the roman equivalent. What we think of as "Market" would just be the commercial bit but to the romans it was alot more.
It's atleast the impression I had.
Oh man I want falmer shopkeeps now! :)
They do have human slaves...
Reeeeeee buy some human blood elixer reeeeeee
"The orb must have subjected those nearby bandits to the same test. However, rather than let them down, it murdered them to death for some reason. Why?"
*ad starts*
"ACCIDENTS HAPPEN."
WHEEEEEEEEEZE
Been paying for TH-cam for a couple years now.... it’s literally a couple bucks a month, and haven’t seen an ad since. I’m retired/stay-at-home so watch like 8 hrs of random stuff per day on the second monitor while playing games . Well worth the money.
@@draelon did anyone ask?
@@darknova9978 Well.... It IS a comments section. :)
@@darknova9978 Did anyone ask you for your opinion on this person's comment?
"Only _ knows, and _ won't tell..."
That's such a cheesy line it always puts a smile on my face
"murdered to death" is my other favourite. Always grin when these 2 lines are said.
I was expecting for "ain't talking", i like this one a bit more
I always like anything starting “...but what if....?” or “....could it really be that....?”, makes me feel like I’m watching Elder Scrolls Ancient Aliens
Without further ado, let's do further
When you think about it, Kagranac wasn’t creating a new god, he was rebuilding an old one.
Not really. He never planned to power Numidium with the Heart, he only used it for the transition
False.
ehh arguable.
Lorkhan seems to be a very complex et'ada/isn't as simple as "no" "i am not", etc like the numidiam was.
Mind you that is very much within lorkhan's sphere, but he is also about space, limitation, and various other things.
Numidiam's whole sphere is literally just rejection of everything. Mannimarco literally uses it in daggerfall to ascend by likely just going "i am a mortal" to numidiam and having it go "NO" and then bamn he's not a mortal.
mind you thats a very simple way of thinking of the logistics, but the point stands that its whole role is to literally just reject. Someone skilled like mannimarco can use it to ascend, someone who is a power hungry tyrant like talos will use it to commit genocide and break space/time while using it as a literal giant robot and curb stomping shit with it
@@DivineXPotato You really bought the high elf bullshit Talos was proved to be a God during the oblivion crisis
@@floridaball4896 he became a God similar to Mannimarco, using the Numidiam to cause Dragon Break, making himself a 9th Divine, it is you, that bought into Tiber Septim's BS lies on how he became a God. the Thalmor are wrong about many things even the idea of man becoming a God, but they weren't wrong about Talos Techinically not being one, he is only one because he literally used a machine that the Dwemer used to help themselves become gods, but instead of disappearing like the Dwemer, it worked for Tiber Septim, just like the 3 living gods of Morrowind didn't disappear when they tapped the Heart of Lorkhan
If there were flying whales imagine the shit rain they would cause...
That why the nords got rid of them.
"It looks like it's about to rain"
"Those are snow whales! Get inside so you dont get pooped on!"
Since the dwemer had underground cities I think the skeletons belonged to the creature's that helped dig out places to build their cities
Giant badger-moles confirmed.
They had flying whales that went extinct in the morrethic era kind of like morrowinds stilt striders
IIIII WAAAAANT PRIIIIIINGLESSSSSS
@Lucas Jean i believe dovazuul is also tonal manipulation, no?
Flying whales. Enjoy my lack of context? I didn't think so.
I actually entered this place in reverse by whirlwind sprinting from a pile of rocks opposite the hidden entrance. Didn’t know there was the ruin above until a while later.
Exactly, I was in this ruin countless times, but always went in from the bandid cave. Never in my innumerable amounts of hours in my playthrough have I seen Orby.
I always knew there was a way to get in there! You figured it out!
I always get sent to look for ancient vampire remains here, and the quest marker always sends me in through the back
Same
I crouched and jumped up the wall by the waterfall. It took some time but I was determined to get through. I had no idea there was more!
I’ve got my own theory. First the giant skeletons could have been dragon skeletons in a massive dragon burial ground. We know that dragons can live forever, so they could potentially grow to infinite size. The consistent size of dragons we see in game is probably just because of engine limitations.
The dwemmer could have excavated it hoping to learn more about dragon shouts, which are a form of tonal manipulation. After excavating it, kagranec could have used it to store the numidium and study dragonshouts at the same time. Th orb could be identifying you through your use of tonal manipulation with dragon shouts. The falmer could be workers who helped construct the numidium.
Dragons stop growing, but they don’t stop ageing.
If there should be dragon skeletons, why not use them but mammoth skeletons instead? Goes just the same as with the whales. Maybe we have to wait for another game in which the lore is lifted before we can understand what bethesda intented.
@@philipphammer3474 Dragon mammoth hybrids... after all, elephants(this implies by default mammoths too) make some powerful and significant sounds
@@philipphammer3474 as far as I can tell this dwemer ruin is in the vanilla game and the first appearance we had of actual Dragon skeletons aside from the dead ones we kill is in the dragonborn DLC so as a substitute they would more than likely use giant Mammoth bones
Wouldn't that make Parthanax fucking massive?
First of all, I love these videos. This attention to detail when explaining Skyrim's secrets and interesting features is amazing.
One correction though. The local maps are not hand drawn.
They are generated from a top down view of the level geometry. Which of course makes the placement of those bones in the level no less intentional. But the renderings on the local map are actually just representations of the models seen when falling down that shaft. You can check that by using 'tcl' in the console and position your character inside such a rib cage to see the position indicator on the map line up with the rendering of the bones.
Isn’t the dovahkiin sometimes refereed to as the “avatar of shore” you know the god, maybe the orb is there to recognize godlike souls/very powerful souls to power the numidium, just a thought.
OH SHIT. THAT'S WHY SHOR WASN'T IN SOVANGARDE.
@@shiteyanyo1111 yes, you are Shor. To be exact, every protagonist of TES' main series is a Shezzarine. Lorkhan made Nirn, and he just keeps his shameless self-inserting in the moments of crisis.
Oh, and that also makes you an avatar of Sithis.
@@shiteyanyo1111 Shor wasn’t in Sovngarde because he was killed by Akatosh when they created Nirn
@@nightwishtech5329 No, Sovngarde is an afterlife, it's a place separate from the mortal plane. What you're saying makes no sense lol
@@crispycronchy5887 An afterlife. Created by God. A God who is dead. In a universe, where we’ve never seen evidence that gods go back to the afterlife they created when they die. What I said makes perfect sense
This has to be some kind of omen. This ruin has always stuck with me ever since Skyrim first came out and is part of my own elder scroll idea. It's great that even after all this time this secluded and mysterious place can be covered in an interesting light.
TES Enthusiast I’m curious too, is it a theory or?
TES Enthusiast that there's more to the first level then that room. Oddly enough most of the idea came from a dream that I had which involved more then one lexicon and the orb deactivating the trap instead of dropping the player
@@abramtankproductions6039 it's not a theory
@@Entropy_VS_Clarity Please do elaborate though.
7:22 wait... no... those bones.. they cant be....
GIANT CLIFF RACERS!
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES
What?
@@Real_Eggman I'm assuming you haven't played morrowind, the cliff racers were a bunch of flying creatures that suck to deal with. (Quick summary of them as an enemy)
Nah, the bones look much bigger
I ran for my life from small cliff racers :( (I'm still running)
@Cactus Juice Jiubs Opus Volume III: The Northern Resurgence
Speaking of kagrunzel, I once went in there not knowing about the giant fall, and was surprised when the ground opened up. At that point I still had no idea it was such a deep fall because I didn’t get to experience it. I fell a good distance and then I touched the bucket that falls with me with my feet. I died instantly. It mistook it for fall damage. Didn’t go back until I watched another video and was like woooww I missed out on that lmao.
Yeah, push the clutter away before activating. It's lethal.
😂
"We don't know if snow whales existed"
"There's a bridge made of snow whale bones in the Nordic heaven"
Not snow whale bones, unspecified whale bones
How do you know it's snow whale bone? What if it's sea whale or land whale bone?
@@EliteGODZ77 and that’s when the fire whales attacked
I just have to geek out for just a moment. I’ve been playing Skyrim since it first came out. But I’ve been watching your videos for over a year and I love them! I’ve actually downloaded mods you’ve recommended and I love how in depth you are with not only Skyrim but Fallout as well (which I play a great deal of) your videos keep me occupied and I learn so much! Keep it up cause I want to see more!
Same. I started on the 360, I've beaten it twice and STILL havent truly did all the things I'd like to do on it. Especially a lot of the alchemist stuff. So much content to explore and enjoy
2:18 Technically, there are a couple quests that lead to Kagrenzel. Stony Creek Cave is also part of multiple quests. If someone were to be looking at the map of Stony Creek Cave while exploring it, they would have been able to see the tunnel leading to Kagrenzel. So it's not entirely by chance that you would stumble upon it.
This is giving me flashbacks to the video about Fallout's Lovecraftian beast.
Those dwarven heads totally reminded me as well. And with Bethesda essentially linking Skyrim and Fallout, it wouldn't surprise me if Kagronak was successful and the Dunwich Old God is actually the Numidium, whispering, groaning, and overall doing its best to manipulate its targets to do its bidding.
@@MetaCynical I always thought that lorenzo's crown looked dwarven
What if the link between the Elder Scrolls and Fallout series is the dwemer?
What if the dwemer didn't disappear, but were thrown through time far forward or behind and those ancient cities were made by them?
Then those busts would look a lot like the ones we see in dwemer architecture, wouldn't it?
*Knock Knock*
Me: Who's there
Nate: Hey guys, how's it going ? It's Nate here !
*In DMX voice*
Knock Knock!!!
Open up the door, it’s Nate!!!
With a video of Skyrim lore that’s Great!!!
What's up, Nate's? It's Guy here.
Awesome analysis as always!
This ruin is easily one of the most stand-out experiences for me out of all my playtime in Skyrim. Found it completely by accident 6 or 7 years after release, went in with my Bosmer character and her companion Meeko, got dumped into that cavern and was petrified Meeko wouldn't survive the fall (he did, thank the gods), and by the time they saw the sun again, I had no idea what I'd just been through, or why it was even there.
Underwhelming, maybe, but still loved rediscovering that sense of unknown adventure in Skyrim again.
I actually went into Kagrenzel because of the sidequest from dawnguard in search for blueprints on crossbows and bolts. That alarm, if you touch the light totally jump scared me in my first visit because nothing like this is in any other dungeon.
The name Kagrenzel is similar to the Dwemer ruin in Solstheim called Kagrumez which also traps the player in a cage once the middle pedestal is activated. The player is then attacked by waves of mechs in a Colosseum type battle where you can see that the Dwemer had viewing areas above the chamber almost for entertainment purposes. When I first found Kagrumez I noted that it sounded familiar and once those Darwven bars came up around me I distinctly remembered Kagrenzel and looked down in anticipation of being dropped.
I’d probably consider that more along the lines of training or research than entertainment. The Dwarfs weren’t known for their love of blood sports. The similarity of the names and situations is interesting though.
RhianKristen idk, there was a little arena in Blackreach that had a sort of stage with spinning dwarven blades, which makes me think it was an arena where the battle ground had “hazards.” We know the falmer can’t build dwarven machines, so dwarves had to have set it up.
Maybe they tested their dwarven centurions or other robots in the arena to see what they could improve
Maybe its not about the scientist at all. Maybe the names are actually Kag Ren Zel and Kag Rumez.
Kag meaning cage?
@@stomperchomper Who knew the Dwemer were fans of Robot Wars?
Let's go! New Nate video! 😁
Snow whales, snow whales, chillin in the ozone, causing a commotion, cuz they are so awesome.
@Calvin Schuster yeah, it's "narwhals swimming in the ocean"
Why I got that song out of my head like just last year noooooo
I get the impression that the place would be a whale corral. I wouldn’t be surprised if part of the roof opened up to allow young whales in and out. I imagine a bunch of singing whales would make it musical in several ways. And might be conducive to tonal experiments.
Snow whales snow whales, pretty big and pretty wide they were farmed by Dwemer for their flight
Like a giant flying Dragonborne, they have a kickass vocal horn, I hope Bethesda hears our plea; make the next game feature ye!
Literally the Earth Bones.
Interesting how close it was to the Aetherium Forge, though.
This has always been one of my favorite locations. And the mystery surrounding it makes it even more eerie.
So what's the difference between "ze" and "zel" in dwarven language?
For clarification: There's a dwarven city called "Kemel-Ze" in Morrowind which translates to "Cliff City", but shouldn't that mean that "zel" means something else?
It is zel
It is zel
It is zel
This is the way.
Oh sorry, wrong thread
No, ze and zel are interchangeable. Possible regional variation, like the whole "color" "colour" thing in english
I keep hearing about the "hit or miss" of Flying snow whales.
But there's potentially very strong evidence of them in Ysgramor's Tomb. At the end of the dungeon, above his sarcophagus.
A whale appearing to be suspended in the clouds. But to the left, a boat in the water???
Isn't the bridge in sovengard a massive skeleton of something perhaps one of these whales?
Daniel shore honestly whenever something is arguably true in elder scrolls it probably is true
The whalebone bridge of Sovngarde is the body of the dead god Stuhn, brother of Tsun and Shield-Thane of Shor. In Old Nordic totemic worship, on which much of the imagery in barrows is based, Stuhn's totem was the whale.
The whale mural in Ysgramor's tomb is indeed a reference to Stuhn as well. There are models and art of such murals in that style for each of the Nordic gods, which were never fully utilized as intended by the developers.
That's not to say there isn't some potential connection between Stuhn and the snow whales--a dead god and an extinct species--but the presence of these two bits of whale imagery is firmly tired to Stuhn.
Maybe "Ac" Means lord, And kagren means sound or music, And Kagrenac, means lord of sound/music
Tonal Lord
@@PhayzinOut yea
idk seems like a stretch
That might make sense. Consider the king of the Dwemer at the time of the Battle of Red Mountain was named Dumac.
@@james737er Kagrenac was the chief tonal architect of the Dwemer. Tonal architects used a type of magic based on sound to create machinery. It's less of a stretch and more...literally what Kagrenac did.
It astounds me that I've been watching you for years and yet I still find videos that I haven't seen to this day. I just can't believe how much content about this game you've really put out that's amazing
A concept: The whale bridge is one whole item, instead of parts. Whereas the mammoth comes in parts, so they found it more mysterious to use the mammoth bones instead
Wow. Another mysterious ruin to explore. Can't wait to check it out. Thanks Nate
Ok... I was like:
"No way I missed this, I have played Skyrim for who knows how long, no way I...[Shows us the light orb and cage]...Wtf!"
I hope we learn what fully happened to the Dwemer and where they went in The Elder Scrolls 6
I am not to sure I WANT to know it, though.
You can after Bethesda adds the npcs and dlc expansion a year after the game comes out.
@@SwayRod836 what if... Bethesda are the Dwemers? ;)
I wouldn't say all but a bit more yes
kiomon I’m pretty sure you were making a joke about Bethesda cash grabs but a fully dwemer dlc would actually be pretty cool
The detail in Skyrim is vastly underrated and your investigation into Skyrim and its lore - its pure epic work my friend. Another top video.
We do know where the numidium was built, under Red Mountain on Vardenfell in the same cave where Dagoth Ur was building his new one. That's the whole reason the Chimer attacked the Dwemer fortresses there, they sought to stop Kagrenacs work by force. The local maps in skyrim are also not hand drawn, they are dynamically generated by the game.
When I first ran into this place I was SO confused and very weirded out at whatever was heppening when the cage appeared, and the orb of light started circling me.
"not featured in any quests" thats where i'm gonna say wrong. i've had the dawnguard send me there before for dwemer schematics for a crossbow
Some quests choose a random location, so you can be sent to any other dwemer ruin instead of kagrenzel.
Radiant quests don't really count.
Dimitri Rascalov
It is still an option for the quest.
A number of dungeons for the system to chose for you.
Shalidors insights, family heirloom and ancient technology. Family heirloom isn’t a radiant
I guess technically but the Dawnguard can send you to any marked dungeon in the game.
How can you still be finding content from skyrim. I wouldn’t even think all this information exist
I absolutely love the mystery behind the Dwemer, and I love the way you investigate and come to these conclusions, that I like to believe are very close to the truth. I honestly hope the mystery of the Dwemer is never solved just to keep watching your videos.
I accidentally found kagrenzal from randomly exploring stony creek cave. I’ve played Skyrim for a long time and had no clue this was part of some strange ruin
at this point im waiting for nate to do a fallout and skyrim play through. there is no way he cant do it after all of these
My Theory: The Snow Whales returned to Atmora when the Dragons came to Tamriel.
The dragons were present in Atmora as well
The first Nedes in Tamriel were all dragon worshippers, the dragon cult ruled in Atmora
Dylan Dog the dragons of atmora presumedly left for other placed. Implications about Ysgrimor and the dragon cult make a lot of sense, and if most of the dragon cult moved to Skyrim with the atmorans there must therefor be no more dragons in Atmora. That being said, food for thought: Alduin was the first dragon and new where atmora was. No one knows how to find atmora anymore. If Alduin had fled for atmora Alduin probably could have just literally outlived the dragonborn and came back to do his shit later.
@@AngelNearDestruction No, you're wrong. Talos went to Atmora and met with a Giant who was high king of Atmora. People can find it, they just need to sail north.
I find it suspicious how I just rediscovered this ruin in a playthrough.
Kagrenac resided strictly in Vvardenfell. The Numidium was kept under Red Mountain, and that's where it stayed inactive until Tiber Septim received it from the Tribunal after the Armistice. Kagrenzel was likely, in my personal opinion, simply an outpost or fort where the Dwemer of Clan Kagren (the clan that ruled over Skyrim at the time) mined for resources within the Velothi Mountains to be distributed to other colonies. Kagrenzel's namesake comes from.. well, obviously Orby. Who probably served as a security system against those who did not wield tonal magic.
OMG I stumbled across the stony creek cave the other day and saw that back entrance and was like "ok, I'll go outside and try to find the other entrance then, because it probably has one and I wanna explore it" and, after exploring for a long while, I stumbled upon Kagrenzel and my immediate reaction was "nope, this will certainly put me in blackreach again". I turned around and left, and I didn't continue to search for the entrance because I thought "well surely I'll have a quest sooner or later that'll tell me where it is"...
Yea I can stand by Orby acceptance of the dragonborn’s tonal shout power as a way to let them into the dungeon
I definitely think this place wasn't used to store the mecha, it's too small and there is no place for it to leave or enter
What if the Dwemer was taken back in time where no other elves or nords lived in Tamriel yet? It isn't a far-fetch because no one knew how the Dwarves got in Tamriel even before the snow-elves or nords came. And in the process they lost all their knowledge so they work hard again just to end up in the same fate, vanishing again and again like a timeloop.
I was under the impression that, like all Elves, the Dwemer came from the Aldmer, which eventually evolved into the different forms of Elf we know today. Furthermore, it does appear that they went forward. I think people would have noticed in the past, and the Dwemer wouldn't have let the Nords and Fumner become what they became seeing as it led to the Dwemer disappearing.
Kieranite FM112 No, that's why i added that their memory about the heart of lorkhan, them disappearing, etc. is removed from their mind. So they start back again, square one and re-do all they've done just to get telported back in time.
Honestly you’re channel is better than pretty much every show and movie on netflix. I could watch you for hours
The WOODEN MASK! If you wear the wooden mask- which has a mysterious "hum"- and use a healing spell on the orb- a secret passage opens up!
Where? In the room there with the pedestal or at the bottom of the watery pit?
@@MrFishluver i would assume at the top.....where the orb actually is
I did try that for shits and giggles but no, nothing happened that I could see.
please tell me this is true i need a reason to get back into skyrim.
This is exactly the video I wanted. No, really. I was also really curious about this place, but would have never guessed about the Dwemer language, and I'm not quite well-versed enough in lore to remember the scientist in question. Though I did know about the Numidium. That's kinda hard to forget.
Last time I was this early the Dwemer were still around
I think there was a side quest in ESO: Elsweyr, where some strange Nord woman mentions flying whales or some strange shit. I think she was on the Skooma. LOL
Well Snow-Whales are a source of Moon Sugar.
Snow whales are supposedly invisible and you need to drink a special kind of potion to see them. Take from that what you will.
@@Galimeer5 special potion being skooma here lol
Woman's been hitting the skooma, I say.
This reminds me very much of the Deep Ones from Oblivion! They were part of the Hackdirt quest, which were it's Lovecraftian influences on its sleeve. Any Lovecraft fan would recognize the quest name "Shadow Over Hackdirt" and understand the reference to Shadow Over Innsmouth. But what's really interesting to me, is that in the Hackdirt caves, you could hear growling and rumbling noises from behind some caved in rocks, indicating that the Deep Ones, whatever they are, *are still there*. It's not hard to draw a parallel between these large bones and rumblings in a subterranean location and the Deep Ones of Hackdirt.
8:33 Maybe that explains their airships; Snow whale flight was powered by something, yes? Maybe the dwemer harvested that material to build airships on.
Personally I want to see an elder scrolls, where the dwemer (seeing that defeat was imminent) decided to leave for a time to bolster their forces. And then they come back to eliminate the thalmor, and restore the falmer in exchange for their help. And then they become the big bad. I would also like to see them and falmer become playable races...
That's just what I want to see
Same
Well that’s not good writing so I hope not.
8 years and there’s STILL stuff to explore.
4:03 THE INFAMOUS "MURDERED TO DEATH" LINE
I love these types of videos because it feels like I'm in a history class that I actually am interested in. Nate could be a teacher for sure.
you are my go to guy for Fallout and Skyrim lore. I know I can always read up on the lore but waht's the fun in that when I can watch your videos that make the lore so clear.
I really hope we find out more about the dwemer in es6, the dwemer and what happened to jyggalag after we took his place in the shivering isles dlc in es4. Skyrim basically confirmed that to be canon at the start of sheos quest, so whatever happened to jyggalag? What happened to the dwarves? Two very important disappearances with zero clear answers.
Somethings are best left unanswered. But Bethesdas lead writer is terrible, so I wouldn't expect anything exceptional.
“Not everything we say is always true. Sometimes, even we developers speak out of personal beliefs and idealisms about certain aspects of TES. And it is NOT always correct…. many times, it is INcorrect purposely.”
- Gary Noonan
And there are some things best left unanswered. As good as it is to learn secrets, there are also certain times when you need that secret to remain a secret.
So perhaps the Disappearance of the Dwemer is one of those; it is never intended to be revealed.
You should make another mod video
Thanks for the ❤️ Nate
I really imagine the whales in the "music city", since whales are well known for their sing
Maybe the whales were kinda masters of tonal magic, just as dragons are masters of the voice
(even there would have been pretty logic that nords annihilate the whales, they were in "competition" with the dragons they worshipped)
Perhaps the whales were what the dragons are to the nods but for the snow elves and they were also targeted in the war between nords and elves
This and the “Ug Qualtoth” video are my favorite videos you’ve made. Keep up the amazing work.
Fun bit. This quest can potentially be involved in the “retrieve dwarven schematics” quest given by Sorine in the dawnguard as a radiant location. The schematic being located at top of the waterfall in Stony Creek cave (the quest marker will direct you to Stony Creek and not this ruin. Which, from stony creek is unreachable without some Whirlwind Sprint cheese.)
Just a thought about the etymology and morphology n stuff. Kagren-ac, kagren and Kagren-zel have all the same radix, you know, which makes me think they just made up kagren as a word for music/tune/tone something like that, and used it, in Kagrenac's case at least, for the name of dwarven greatest tonal architect. The same radix in Kagrenzel can then be explained by either or both; kagren in Kagrenac, kagren as music or both, because its the most important concept in dwemer culture and most important dwemer connected to it.
Great theory!
The Cliff Racers are causing me distress lol
It could be that the dwarvs learnred tonal manipulation from these beings.
This was the most surprising entrances of a dungeon for me. Also, it's good to hear Nate say "MURDER TO DEATH" again.
Nate is the Alt Shift X of The Elder Scrolls. So entertaining and informative!
Skyrim’s dunwitch building.
That would probably be that one house in Markarth that Molag Bol controls.
The Sightless Pit in Skyrim is a bit like this dungeon. As far as I remember, no quests are attached to it, but it does feature a strange dwarven ruin in it if I remember correctly. Might be something worth investigating in a future video.
Q: Do we know enough about the Dwarvish language to support a reading of Kgrenak's City opposed to [music]'s city?
I ask because (in High School) a friend read "the Hellespont" as "the Sea of the Hellenes" rather than "Sea of Helle" -- not understanding the differences involved.
Q: Is it possible the dwarves also developed the Shout, or even were taught thus by the dragons?
Small correction: the local maps are NOT hand-drawn. Rather the engine just takes the outlines of the first objects it can "see" from above and plops them in. This is why it sometimes seems like you should be able to explore a rockfall further, but when you delete the rocks you find it's a dead end. Fallout 4 works the same way.
The reason why it perhaps *looks* like maps are hand-drawn is because there is a simple plane you can put above the objects in the cell in order to hide them from the minimap. Some mazes, if I recall correctly, feature these to foil any cheating -- the player icon is standing in a void on such a minimap. The reason you can see this far outside the playable section in this particular cell is most likely due to time constraints.
Finding this place naturally back in 2011 was such a fun experience