These videos are so valuable. This is gunna put to rest all the debates on what "stages" do what . Seriously, THANK YOU Red Beard... this is gunna help future builds/new builders immensely
Back in the day i built 4cyl Briggs kart engines(restricted and unrestricted) I specialized in carbs and have ton of hours flowing carbs and wet flow bench and modify carbs . Your biggest gain / restriction is the carb period !!!!. Your test doesn't show the whole carb story you need to graph A/F. Great job testing and sharing your results!!!!!! Thanks, BobG
When I first started building my predator 212 The intake and Carb ( vm22) was the single biggest improvement ! And it was probably one of the cheapest of improvements… This is of course After the governor was removed! Put a good fuel line and filter on it.. I went thru 3 before spending the money on a genuine mukuni ! Haven’t had an issue since!
This series is exactly what I always wanted to see! Extremely informative & entertaining! I just built up my second minibike with a Predator 212 & I'm loving it! The acceleration on this tiny MMB80 frame is so much fun! I've done all the small things to maximize performance, so I'll be looking for more go-fast parts soon. It's so great to see actual dyno pulls after all the mods. No more guessing! Everyone has a huge leg-up now & I think that's awesome.
I think this series of videos is the best thing I've seen in a while. Easy to understand with results in black and white. Excited to see where you go with it, hope to see some cam tests in the future. Would also love to see how a CDI would affect the power.
Thank you. I have a 212cc that I'm doing a slight upgrade to, carb, govenor removed and springs. Not looking for any RPM past 4500 so I'm keeping the stock flywheel since I was the electric start. With gearing and such I'll be getting 10k RPM at the water turbine. My son is 7yo so the mini jet boat should move along at a reasonable speed. We'll see how it goes this summer! Who knows maybe I'll make a YT video of it on the water. Thanks for your videos, I'm glad to be on the right track.
Not only does the flat-slide carb give the best peak power by far, the output is also the most consistent without the flat spots in the curve like all the other carbs. On top of that, it's making peak power way up high in the RPM range, which makes me think this carb will have the most headroom for adding more power mods down the road.
Hi Greg, Brian from Florida here, really enjoying ALL of your videos especially your road to horsepower series. This series is answering alot of questions your average enthusiast may have but I would like to respectfully point out that the vm22 knockoff carb also known as the chikuni (chineese version of the Japanese mikuni) has an inside diameter of 26mm. Not 22mm. Like the original. This may explain the hp diffrence when compared to to the original. Lots of love here from Florida and God bless you too!
I dont think there is a point in doing that. 24mm even without porting obviously outflow the engine. Not a hint of drop off. If you try to enlarge ports even bigger, at this moment you only loose low end, for prety much no gain up top.
In your testing, are you dialing in jetting for each test? The genuine mikuni’s AFR seemed all out of whack at both WOT and idle. Super lean at idle, super fat at WOT. that could account for the power discrepancy between it and the clone vm22.
This is the series that I always wanted to see! I have a Yerf Dog that has a hemi 212 on it with billet rod/flywheel, 265 cam, 22 lbs valve springs, clone VM22, and header with rlv muffler. The thing rips and I've wondered what kind of power it makes.
Try 1.2 or 1.3 rockers with the stock cam, in my experience it seemed to make a good amount of torque. And with a ported head the bike it was on had little to no trouble keeping up with mild big blocks.
the 22 clone did well fpor me. just installed open 2 days ago and swapped from 90 jet to a 100. she rips. might do cam aannd sproings next. looking for a fly wheel
I really like the flat slide carb, and liked the looks of how smooth the graph looked on the dyno. Until GPS makes a 3 magnet billet flywheel, I'll be keeping my MTB under 5,000rpm. So far, I've done the stage 1 with re-jetting, and K&N style air filter, straight through exhaust, and zip tied the governor spring. In this configuration, My bike does 80km/h, or 50mph, and stays under 5,000rpm. This is max speed limit around where I live, and plenty fast enough to get trouble from the cops. I run a Harley LED headlight, and the tail light that looks like the back of an F-14 in LED, with running, turns, and break lights. I have 2 coils under the electric start flywheel, and a 12v battery under the motor mount plate. I usually charge up the battery for a few hours, before riding, and the charging system keeps the flashers working all day.
RBG, buddy. Question for you or anyone who can answer it for me. I've got a knock, my con rod clearanced my crank perfectly, my flywheel is lapped perfectly, I've got a slight bit more crank end play than I'd like but didn't have spacers to be rid of it (didn't have any on hand durong build because they were forgotten about). Motor went together perfectly, no parts needed ground for fitment, motor runs good on stock carb, I put a mikubi clone Nibbi PE24 on her. She ran like crap, for a day or two of testing the new carb to tune it .. Put stock carb back on, now it has developed quite a loud knock, and a little extra vibrational shimmy that wasn't there in stock format, or when I did the early build. I did not remove the governor gear from the crank as it doesn't seem to interfere with any other parts internally so I left it installed. Today I am going to disnantle the engine and check for the knock source, this makes the second ARC rod I've had an issue with knock out of the box, despite both plastiguaged and micd cranks fitting the rods perfectly around the full pie of the diameter. I've built several engines before this without this issue, but they weren't predator variety, they were 2 stroke variety, and had different crank and bearing setup than this. 2 out of 2 motors with perdator 212 with stock length con rods that are knocking (I believe) right out of the box, despite the crank measuring perfect, andtge plastiguaged confirming the prescribed .25 to 0.3 thou of oil clearance. Torqued to 170 in-lb with oil as lube. Cranks cleaned manually before being oiled and installed
I'd like to say I AM using an old old old clutch as well, and if I grabthe bell of the clutch (which is loose) and hold it with my hand, the knock is significantly quieter... I'm going to try running the motor at the shop with no clutch on it and seeif maybe my issue isn't this motor but maybe the old clutch. I use this bike as my ride to work every day, so far it's been reliable as all hell, in it's stock format. I'm considering buying a third motor and keeping it bone stock to use while perfect my building skills on my 2 experimental motors. My goal in the long run is to begin experiments with CDI, and stator replacements for the flywheel that will let it be able to charge a small battery for a basic light system and maybe a radio if the power output is good enough. Or an alternator on a pulley where the fuel tank used to sit
Update on what has been found out. Galling on the bearing in the crank, and now more play than what it had during fitment by a lot. Case bearings fine, seems to be scratching in the cylinder bore from piston slap. The spark plug and piston face are white from the combination of being lean mix and that ridiculous 32 degree timing advance. (Stock carb, stock jet, didn't have time to wait for aftermarket.) From what I can see, the stock carband jet combined with the stupid timing advance caused detonation, which in turn is damaging the rod bearings. I am very upsetting spaghetti that I didn't think about the timing advance to begin with, and that the ONLY flywheels for the hemi have such a high level of advance to them that they will damage a mostly stock setup like that. Things to keep inind in my rebuild will be: that I need to find an acceptable way to retard the timing if I am trying to keep the stock carb and ignition timing. The reasoning say this is that the ONLY thing I didn't do to the tee was replace my carb with an after stock jet or carb. So I've been running very lean mix, and causing detonations during the exhaust stroke, which have caused the new con rod to be damaged. I think I am going to build some kind of a sliding plate mount for the coil to be moved forward or back to adjust for the timing difference. I think that by retarding my timing to stock, I should be able to eliminate the knock, with that and a slightly bigger jet. Alli want out of this motor is to remove the rev limiter, I'm not looking for top end rpms or super high performance, I'd likeslughtly better than stock performance, with billet parts that ensure safety and reliability. So far from ARC I have not seen the results I wanted, but I mostly blame that I didn't take the timing difference or the fuel into account before running the engine (as the bike IS my main mode of travel at this time.)
Same, on the verge of getting a vanguard 35hp, but hoping he build the duromax soon as that is much cheaper just not sure what aftermarket support it has. Looking to turbo a 1L v-twin for 100wtq/100whp.
I’m completely blown away that the clone gives you almost one more horsepower. I’ve bought a clone it says Mikuni Japan on it but we all know what that means. I paid $100 for it and I felt ripped off I should’ve done my homework. But God always looks after his favorite, they accidentally sent me two carburetors. I called them back to return one and they said because my honesty to keep it. So now I have a brand new Mikuni in my parts bin with a brand new hemi 212 that was never used still in the box it was given to me. Anyway I’m getting way off track dynamite machine you got there
Great testing and very interesting, but did you test air fuel ratio of each carb to see if all of them are correctly tuned? If not then the results might be inaccurate and might explain why the original is making less power than to clone.
Great series! If you look at the upper end of the graphs, the bigger venturi theory on the knockoff seems to hold some water, as it looks like its flowing more air. Speaking of, I've always wondered if the tiny air filter that comes with the Mikuni kits is restricting airflow. Any way we could see a video testing the chrome air filter vs the bigger K&N style filter using the velocity stack adapter that gopowersports sells?
This is a very good debate.. although technically you would have to rejet for the air filter. I would still like to know as well. Are velocity stacks worth it. Or expensive filters worth it
I had a tiny air filter in one of the VM22 clone kits I got. Ran pig rich compared to the cheap foam type filter. So yeah it's restricting airflow. It went in the garbage.
Hello RB and Miss RB. I haven't seen any comments about this but I wanted to ask. Every year grass cutting is over what ever gas I have left in my lawnmowers I just let them run that fuel out and shut down.. and I've never had a problem with my mowers.. would you agree with this or not..?? Thank you for all you do! You do have One of the top 5 channels!! GOD Bless you and Yours! 😇🙏👍
I've been running a 28mm oko on my gx200 and had phenomenal results out of it I got it on my channel u guys have given me a load of ideas for upgrades to go on from here but being on a very tight budget I'm lucky I managed to get a new crank for my yanmar ld70 can't wait to swap back to the diesel I miss the weight of the diesel vrs the honda
I'm gathering parts to build a Ducar 212 and I bought the Amazon PWK 24mm Carb. It looks awesome and it was around $30. You can get all the way up to a 34mm carb for the same price.
@@pop_major4698 To be honest, to do just 40 mph, Just do a stage 1 kit and you will be good. No need to swap the carb. Gov delete, 18# valve springs, #38 jet for the carb, air filter and exhaust. Should hit 45ish pretty easy. I would buy a torque converter at some point.
@@pop_major4698 If you want to swap the stack carb, on a stockish 212 I would run a PZ19 carb. Cheap and easy to tune... A 22mm or 24mm may be a bit much for it. I don't care what people say to run, a PZ 19 works great on stage 1 212s.
th-cam.com/video/fIzMHznvG8Q/w-d-xo.html He has a TH-cam channel about his cdi kits. Never tried them. Just thought I'd see if he'd test a cdi kit. Instead of having the flywheel keyed and tuning ignition for hp at one point in the rpm range. The cdi changes the ignition advance throughout the rpm range. Should run better and have a much broader hp/tq curve. Plus the engine should live longer and get better mpg.
The clone made better power because it wasnt as rich as the genuine mikuni. The 24mm was the only one that had decent looking a/f ratios. You might want to come back and look at these carbs again after tuning the a/f ratio, I bet they will be closer.
I don't know if you notice, but after the stock carb, they're in order of AFRs, from rich to lean. The genuine mikuni ran at around 10-11, dipping into 9's, knockoff between 11-12, dipping into 10's, and the TM24 ran 13-14, dipping into 12's. You can run too much fuel, as this shows.
I put a Smart Carb on my YZ 250. The gains were amazing. I live in the northern Rockies ND day's riding can see 4500 feet in altitude changes and the Smart Carb automatically adjusts itself without hiccup. Really pricey but worth the price. I wish they made them for this kind of engine
You should add a wide band 02 sensor to the dyno. That way you can see your air fuel ratio and fine tune. The carbs cfm and air fuel ratio are the big difference.
Can you put the curves on the same graph? It would be great to see which combo does the best torque on takeoff from 1500 to3000 rpm. Peak numbers are great but lugging a fat body takes torque at the bottom.
from just a carb, sweet, maybe use two camaras when showing the dyno so u can split screen the engine and the monitor so we can have a closer look. thank u for your timer sir.
Not sure how much tuning your doing on the carbs but I'm thinking the difference in power between the vm22 clone and Genuine could be (could being the right word) because the clone did a better job of keeping a stable afr during the run. Cant tell much from the video but it looks like the Genuine VM22 got pretty rich through the run hitting like low 10s and then 9s. With small motors TQ is going to fluctuate a decent amount going from say 12-13 afr in a run to say 9-10s afr.
Considering that only one carburetor was running the right AFR! I feel like more effort would prove different results? The VM22 knock-off was at 0.65 lambda, or 9.5 AFR isn't fair compared to 0.92 lambda or 13.5 AFR! There was more power to be made with the other carb!
Since you have AFR hooked up can you tell me your jet sizes in the vm22? Our altitude is close from your area and mine and I have similar upgrades. Also what spark plug are you using for these test? Be cool to see an overlapping graph in comparison to see who has the flatest curve keeping that hp number up near the top.
These videos are very good and really help with my mud motors for duck boats. A full stage 2 with the flat slide should rip on a 14ft 36in wide flat bottom
Did you have any luck with this? I can't get TM24 to tune to save my life. On the water yesterday it was spraying fuel everywhere out the vent tubes. I think the needle or main needs adjusting still but it also managed to flood with all the vibration.
@@HeegeMcGee what carb are you running? I had the same issue with a makuni, I wound up using a needle and set with a lot smaller hole for fuel to flow through and fixed it
Built a non hemi 212 for my baja mini bike, bought the knock off mikuni off amazon in a kit just trying to save some money, though I expected the knock off to be worse I was surprised to see the differences!
My go to "build" is a vm22 clone, full governor delete, 22lb springs, and a header. I don't bother with the flywheel or rod since they cost almost as much as a new engine. Out of 20+ builds and 1000+ hours I've only had one flywheel break and have never lost a rod. For around $60 you are north of 10hp. Can't beat that bang for your buck.
What I found is that there is quite a difference with the VM22 clone stock lift cam versus a bigger cam like one with a 265 lift. Big difference even running less than 5K RPM.
What do you think the results would be putting on a carb upgrade and exhaust on a stock engine? Leaving in the governor, stock fly wheel and valve springs. My guess is you'd likely get 10hp.
i use the pz20-24 amazon specials, just for the convenience of adjusting carb screws. curious if you can dyno that one. thanks and great content like always!
Is it practical to install a Mikuni 24mm flat slide carb if you are not removing the govoner? I've ordered the carb, and I was going to just set it on the shelf until I had the money for the rest of the Stage 2 kit, but then I was thinking, maybe I shouldn't wait. What do you think?
This is pretty cool, I have used the knock off pwk 24mm D slide carbs and had great results with them, easy to tune, they hold up great with e85, and red and black looks cool. Can't wait till you get to camshafts, I built a high compression, ported, big valve hemi 212 that I tried different cams on and I settled for the mod 2, the fire 265 just didn't do it, couldn't tell the difference from stock (all cams had 1.2 rockers) Also would be interested in testing fuel types, butt dyno tells me e85 makes a difference.
Awesome Intel RBG ! Gonna rob the Predator 212 off my defunct log splitter to mod it for a Mega Moto 212 build. Will "caging" the governor spring with zip tie (temporarily) be similar to governor removal ? TY for your input. Or to others who know the answer.
Not that it really needed proving, but it had to be done so I finally have a source to show somebody when they jump straight to a too big carb for their engine in the quest for power. Number one most common mistake made by newbies and the ignorant.
I have the vm22 official, and when i choke the motor, nothing. If i put it on run give just the smalles gas, and it roars to life. Is that a vaccum leak? was thinkin of tryin the rubber hose fitting yall use.
I got the Nibbi PE26 like $80 it came with #40 pilot and #105 main jet with a extra #35 pilot and #110,#115,#118 main jets to tune to your sea level and whatnot, i have the hisun 196 that came on the coleman and that carb feels so good, looks mad sexy, and also so easy to tune. I would love to see the dyno difference going from 24mm to 26mm. I doubt the performance is worth $40 more than the clone carb but you never know its worth a test. IMO
Why did you rev the engine up to 6400 with the 22mm clone and the 24 flat slide but stopped at a lower rpm on the mikuni 22mm? It looked like the hp numbers were still climbing on the mikuni 22mm and it may have made better numbers if you would have revved it up to 6400 like the other 2 carbs
Great vid.. i would like to see all data on one graph. I guess you can export all data to excel and create graph. If help needed, i would be happy to help
RBG can you or others comment on the relative benefit of bumping up to the 301cc or 420cc larger Predators ? Vs the Uber popular 212 - so long as the weight & dimensions on the larger two aren't out of line with the typical Mini Bike available frame space - wouldn't the old adage of "there ain't no replacement for DISPLACEMENT hold true ? (IE: less radical mods required on 301 / 420cc ?)
Awesome series! I’m so glad you have a dyno now, for some shootouts and tuning! Now that you have the 24mm on tap, I can’t wait to see what camshaft selection does to take advantage of the airflow. Oh, when you swap in the billet rod, can you weigh the stock and billet rods?
@RedBeard - What size jet did you use in the VM22 Clone? (Or others can chime in if you have a preferred jet set-up, esp if using a non-stock cam.) Thanks
There is an old dude named David vizard what wrote the book on engines literally he figured out that an expansion chamber after the collector made the engine think it had a straight pipe I'm thinking an expansion chamber about where the standard muffler would be might do this on a 212 the engine doesn't see the restriction of a muffler after the chamber
These videos are so valuable. This is gunna put to rest all the debates on what "stages" do what .
Seriously, THANK YOU Red Beard... this is gunna help future builds/new builders immensely
Thank you for watching and supporting.
So they have all these for all motors like a drz 400
Would love to this new clear bowl 400 dollar carb that's just ridiculously priced
This Road to Horsepower series is the greatest thing to happen to building these engines. Seriously.
I'm getting the 24!!! Yeah man keep the secrets flowing!!! Thanks for this series folks! I really mean it. The community needed this.
Back in the day i built 4cyl Briggs kart engines(restricted and unrestricted) I specialized in carbs and have ton of hours flowing carbs and wet flow bench and modify carbs . Your biggest gain / restriction is the carb period !!!!. Your test doesn't show the whole carb story you need to graph A/F. Great job testing and sharing your results!!!!!! Thanks, BobG
Best go, kart, minibike, small engine channel on TH-cam.
When I first started building my predator 212
The intake and Carb ( vm22) was the single biggest improvement ! And it was probably one of the cheapest of improvements…
This is of course
After the governor was removed!
Put a good fuel line and filter on it..
I went thru 3 before spending the money on a genuine mukuni !
Haven’t had an issue since!
This series is exactly what I always wanted to see! Extremely informative & entertaining! I just built up my second minibike with a Predator 212 & I'm loving it! The acceleration on this tiny MMB80 frame is so much fun! I've done all the small things to maximize performance, so I'll be looking for more go-fast parts soon. It's so great to see actual dyno pulls after all the mods. No more guessing! Everyone has a huge leg-up now & I think that's awesome.
Yay for the Chi'kuni carb results! Thanks for doing these tests. We all appreciate it
The best advice on the web. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I think this series of videos is the best thing I've seen in a while. Easy to understand with results in black and white. Excited to see where you go with it, hope to see some cam tests in the future. Would also love to see how a CDI would affect the power.
Thank you. I have a 212cc that I'm doing a slight upgrade to, carb, govenor removed and springs. Not looking for any RPM past 4500 so I'm keeping the stock flywheel since I was the electric start. With gearing and such I'll be getting 10k RPM at the water turbine. My son is 7yo so the mini jet boat should move along at a reasonable speed. We'll see how it goes this summer! Who knows maybe I'll make a YT video of it on the water. Thanks for your videos, I'm glad to be on the right track.
Not only does the flat-slide carb give the best peak power by far, the output is also the most consistent without the flat spots in the curve like all the other carbs. On top of that, it's making peak power way up high in the RPM range, which makes me think this carb will have the most headroom for adding more power mods down the road.
Hi Greg, Brian from Florida here, really enjoying ALL of your videos especially your road to horsepower series. This series is answering alot of questions your average enthusiast may have but I would like to respectfully point out that the vm22 knockoff carb also known as the chikuni (chineese version of the Japanese mikuni) has an inside diameter of 26mm. Not 22mm. Like the original. This may explain the hp diffrence when compared to to the original. Lots of love here from Florida and God bless you too!
Can’t wait to see camshafts on the dyno. Also curious how a 26mm carb does along with a ported head
Agreed!
I’m going to do more carbs soon.
yep, definitely want to see a video on ported heads!
Yes. We need more head.... in general
I dont think there is a point in doing that. 24mm even without porting obviously outflow the engine. Not a hint of drop off. If you try to enlarge ports even bigger, at this moment you only loose low end, for prety much no gain up top.
420 seems like the next logical test mule, lets see it!
As soon as the clutch gets here
Did you get the 420 carb Dyno stuff
In your testing, are you dialing in jetting for each test? The genuine mikuni’s AFR seemed all out of whack at both WOT and idle. Super lean at idle, super fat at WOT. that could account for the power discrepancy between it and the clone vm22.
This is the series that I always wanted to see! I have a Yerf Dog that has a hemi 212 on it with billet rod/flywheel, 265 cam, 22 lbs valve springs, clone VM22, and header with rlv muffler. The thing rips and I've wondered what kind of power it makes.
I ordered a flywheel and rod with mod 2 cam do u prefer 22lb or 18lb springs
Try 1.2 or 1.3 rockers with the stock cam, in my experience it seemed to make a good amount of torque. And with a ported head the bike it was on had little to no trouble keeping up with mild big blocks.
Will do.
the 22 clone did well fpor me. just installed open 2 days ago and swapped from 90 jet to a 100. she rips. might do cam aannd sproings next. looking for a fly wheel
I really like the flat slide carb, and liked the looks of how smooth the graph looked on the dyno. Until GPS makes a 3 magnet billet flywheel, I'll be keeping my MTB under 5,000rpm. So far, I've done the stage 1 with re-jetting, and K&N style air filter, straight through exhaust, and zip tied the governor spring. In this configuration, My bike does 80km/h, or 50mph, and stays under 5,000rpm. This is max speed limit around where I live, and plenty fast enough to get trouble from the cops. I run a Harley LED headlight, and the tail light that looks like the back of an F-14 in LED, with running, turns, and break lights. I have 2 coils under the electric start flywheel, and a 12v battery under the motor mount plate. I usually charge up the battery for a few hours, before riding, and the charging system keeps the flashers working all day.
RBG, buddy.
Question for you or anyone who can answer it for me.
I've got a knock, my con rod clearanced my crank perfectly, my flywheel is lapped perfectly, I've got a slight bit more crank end play than I'd like but didn't have spacers to be rid of it (didn't have any on hand durong build because they were forgotten about).
Motor went together perfectly, no parts needed ground for fitment, motor runs good on stock carb, I put a mikubi clone Nibbi PE24 on her.
She ran like crap, for a day or two of testing the new carb to tune it ..
Put stock carb back on, now it has developed quite a loud knock, and a little extra vibrational shimmy that wasn't there in stock format, or when I did the early build.
I did not remove the governor gear from the crank as it doesn't seem to interfere with any other parts internally so I left it installed.
Today I am going to disnantle the engine and check for the knock source, this makes the second ARC rod I've had an issue with knock out of the box, despite both plastiguaged and micd cranks fitting the rods perfectly around the full pie of the diameter.
I've built several engines before this without this issue, but they weren't predator variety, they were 2 stroke variety, and had different crank and bearing setup than this.
2 out of 2 motors with perdator 212 with stock length con rods that are knocking (I believe) right out of the box, despite the crank measuring perfect, andtge plastiguaged confirming the prescribed .25 to 0.3 thou of oil clearance.
Torqued to 170 in-lb with oil as lube.
Cranks cleaned manually before being oiled and installed
I'd like to say I AM using an old old old clutch as well, and if I grabthe bell of the clutch (which is loose) and hold it with my hand, the knock is significantly quieter...
I'm going to try running the motor at the shop with no clutch on it and seeif maybe my issue isn't this motor but maybe the old clutch.
I use this bike as my ride to work every day, so far it's been reliable as all hell, in it's stock format.
I'm considering buying a third motor and keeping it bone stock to use while perfect my building skills on my 2 experimental motors.
My goal in the long run is to begin experiments with CDI, and stator replacements for the flywheel that will let it be able to charge a small battery for a basic light system and maybe a radio if the power output is good enough.
Or an alternator on a pulley where the fuel tank used to sit
Update on what has been found out.
Galling on the bearing in the crank, and now more play than what it had during fitment by a lot.
Case bearings fine, seems to be scratching in the cylinder bore from piston slap.
The spark plug and piston face are white from the combination of being lean mix and that ridiculous 32 degree timing advance. (Stock carb, stock jet, didn't have time to wait for aftermarket.)
From what I can see, the stock carband jet combined with the stupid timing advance caused detonation, which in turn is damaging the rod bearings.
I am very upsetting spaghetti that I didn't think about the timing advance to begin with, and that the ONLY flywheels for the hemi have such a high level of advance to them that they will damage a mostly stock setup like that.
Things to keep inind in my rebuild will be: that I need to find an acceptable way to retard the timing if I am trying to keep the stock carb and ignition timing.
The reasoning say this is that the ONLY thing I didn't do to the tee was replace my carb with an after stock jet or carb.
So I've been running very lean mix, and causing detonations during the exhaust stroke, which have caused the new con rod to be damaged.
I think I am going to build some kind of a sliding plate mount for the coil to be moved forward or back to adjust for the timing difference.
I think that by retarding my timing to stock, I should be able to eliminate the knock, with that and a slightly bigger jet.
Alli want out of this motor is to remove the rev limiter, I'm not looking for top end rpms or super high performance, I'd likeslughtly better than stock performance, with billet parts that ensure safety and reliability.
So far from ARC I have not seen the results I wanted, but I mostly blame that I didn't take the timing difference or the fuel into account before running the engine (as the bike IS my main mode of travel at this time.)
What jet did you have in the clone VM22?
150 are the best for them
🍿just sitting here waiting on the 999 duromax upgrades.
I wonder what happened to that.
@@thedancingpickle6362 he'll get to it but it will probably be spring. Think he told me they have not put 20hrs on it. Yet.
@RBG if you get around to that I'll offer to bring some camera gear down and we'll make a big production out of it.
Same, on the verge of getting a vanguard 35hp, but hoping he build the duromax soon as that is much cheaper just not sure what aftermarket support it has. Looking to turbo a 1L v-twin for 100wtq/100whp.
could’ve bought a whole bike for the price of that motor
I’m completely blown away that the clone gives you almost one more horsepower. I’ve bought a clone it says Mikuni Japan on it but we all know what that means. I paid $100 for it and I felt ripped off I should’ve done my homework. But God always looks after his favorite, they accidentally sent me two carburetors. I called them back to return one and they said because my honesty to keep it. So now I have a brand new Mikuni in my parts bin with a brand new hemi 212 that was never used still in the box it was given to me. Anyway I’m getting way off track dynamite machine you got there
Great testing and very interesting, but did you test air fuel ratio of each carb to see if all of them are correctly tuned? If not then the results might be inaccurate and might explain why the original is making less power than to clone.
Great series! If you look at the upper end of the graphs, the bigger venturi theory on the knockoff seems to hold some water, as it looks like its flowing more air. Speaking of, I've always wondered if the tiny air filter that comes with the Mikuni kits is restricting airflow. Any way we could see a video testing the chrome air filter vs the bigger K&N style filter using the velocity stack adapter that gopowersports sells?
This is a very good debate.. although technically you would have to rejet for the air filter. I would still like to know as well. Are velocity stacks worth it. Or expensive filters worth it
I had a tiny air filter in one of the VM22 clone kits I got. Ran pig rich compared to the cheap foam type filter. So yeah it's restricting airflow. It went in the garbage.
Hello RB and Miss RB. I haven't seen any comments about this but I wanted to ask. Every year grass cutting is over what ever gas I have left in my lawnmowers I just let them run that fuel out and shut down.. and I've never had a problem with my mowers.. would you agree with this or not..?? Thank you for all you do! You do have One of the top 5 channels!!
GOD Bless you and Yours! 😇🙏👍
I've been running a 28mm oko on my gx200 and had phenomenal results out of it I got it on my channel u guys have given me a load of ideas for upgrades to go on from here but being on a very tight budget I'm lucky I managed to get a new crank for my yanmar ld70 can't wait to swap back to the diesel I miss the weight of the diesel vrs the honda
Your killing from one red head to the other. Thanks for this man. Really helps thinking about it in numbers you can tell people
Predator engines how do they trigger the spark to the plug. Im use ta seeing points under the flywheel. Or you have a video of the ignition setup?
Are you able to add AFR to your chart? The vm24 during the Dyno looked like it ran leaner than the others.
Yeah it’s all hooked up. I may have been able to pull another half a horsepower out of it if I spent more time jetting.
Absolutely love this series. Thank you so much.
Thank you for watching!
AFR overlay is important. It is a fuel air mixer. The clone looks bigger. On the vod the 24 looks like it was running a tad leaner.
It was and the real vm22 was running really fat at like 9.5 so if it was around 12 I like it wold have made more power than the clone
Love this series! It's amazing that 1 single part can make such a difference!
I'm gathering parts to build a Ducar 212 and I bought the Amazon PWK 24mm Carb. It looks awesome and it was around $30. You can get all the way up to a 34mm carb for the same price.
Yea when I had my bike I had a pwk28 and took a little tuning but man that carb was well worth 32$
do you have the link for it!!? what would you suggest for a 212 non hemi i have a 15$ carb and only gets me to about 40mph
@@pop_major4698 To be honest, to do just 40 mph, Just do a stage 1 kit and you will be good. No need to swap the carb. Gov delete, 18# valve springs, #38 jet for the carb, air filter and exhaust. Should hit 45ish pretty easy. I would buy a torque converter at some point.
@@pop_major4698 If you want to swap the stack carb, on a stockish 212 I would run a PZ19 carb. Cheap and easy to tune... A 22mm or 24mm may be a bit much for it. I don't care what people say to run, a PZ 19 works great on stage 1 212s.
@@spuds7677 thank you so much 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
There are cdi conversion kits for Hondas and honda clone engines. You should try one out. Get rid of the fixed ignition timing.
would you recommend a good source
I have one I will test.
th-cam.com/video/fIzMHznvG8Q/w-d-xo.html
He has a TH-cam channel about his cdi kits.
Never tried them. Just thought I'd see if he'd test a cdi kit.
Instead of having the flywheel keyed and tuning ignition for hp at one point in the rpm range. The cdi changes the ignition advance throughout the rpm range. Should run better and have a much broader hp/tq curve. Plus the engine should live longer and get better mpg.
@@timothywilliams2021 thanks, Timothy_ I checked out the channel - looks good
what jets were installed in the carburetors, and it would be great to have an oxygen sensor on the exhaust
for mixture control
looks as if there is one on the exhaust pipe, not sure though
The clone made better power because it wasnt as rich as the genuine mikuni. The 24mm was the only one that had decent looking a/f ratios. You might want to come back and look at these carbs again after tuning the a/f ratio, I bet they will be closer.
You mention doing the billet flywheel when removing the governor but no mention of billet rod?
The most important thing is the billet flywheel. You for sure need to do the rod but it isn't as important as the flywheel.
Can you guys do a test for Robertsons Torque Tubes for the Hondas and clones I love how they sound.
This is actually really cool! It's sad that you never know who to believe in a catalog online. But this is real-world data!
Good stuff! It looked like one of those was running a little fat compared to the others, it also put up smaller numbers. Can't wait for more.
Great video. I think carb is the best mod all said
I'm enjoying your road to horsepower videos. Keep it up. 👍👍
You should see what a Tillotson TCT does or like a blueprinted carb.
I don't know if you notice, but after the stock carb, they're in order of AFRs, from rich to lean. The genuine mikuni ran at around 10-11, dipping into 9's, knockoff between 11-12, dipping into 10's, and the TM24 ran 13-14, dipping into 12's.
You can run too much fuel, as this shows.
I put a Smart Carb on my YZ 250. The gains were amazing. I live in the northern Rockies ND day's riding can see 4500 feet in altitude changes and the Smart Carb automatically adjusts itself without hiccup. Really pricey but worth the price. I wish they made them for this kind of engine
You should add a wide band 02 sensor to the dyno. That way you can see your air fuel ratio and fine tune. The carbs cfm and air fuel ratio are the big difference.
There is one. It’s on the dyno screen.
@@RedBeardsGarage can you move the screen closer to the camera? It's not readable!!! Thanks
Id like to see a comparison of the flatslide 24 mikuni vs the nibbi 24
Great video, but I wish you would have told the jetting for each aftermarket carburetor.
As usual, you have raised the bar! Awesome series of videos. Can you please post the jets you used in these carbs. Thank you!
I guess go big. Cannot wait to see how much more you'll get with a cam and ratio rockers.
Can you put the curves on the same graph? It would be great to see which combo does the best torque on takeoff from 1500 to3000 rpm. Peak numbers are great but lugging a fat body takes torque at the bottom.
Yeah. We are incorporating more info as the videos go on.
Would like to see a comparison with the NIBBI carbs vs the flat slide. Great show guys keep it up!
We will be doing it soon sir.
The Nibbis are so pretty! It will be interesting to see how they stack up!
@@3dconceptsofutah757 I run one on my 224 and it’s great when it’s working. My VM22 has been flawless on my 212. But the NIBBI’s sure look good!!
Really enjoying The Road to HP series
from just a carb, sweet, maybe use two camaras when showing the dyno so u can split screen the engine and the monitor so we can have a closer look. thank u for your timer sir.
If you read this soon, Diesel Dave needs some no-bs help with a project he is working on (latest video) and you are the right person for the job.
Nice gains for the $$$. It's great to see real world numbers.
That flat slide didn’t fall off at higher rpm it’s pretty nuts how all the rest do
What episode has the advace timing key put in backwards to return back to stock timing ?
Just curious to see if they all have the same jet size and fuel screw adjustment?
Not sure how much tuning your doing on the carbs but I'm thinking the difference in power between the vm22 clone and Genuine could be (could being the right word) because the clone did a better job of keeping a stable afr during the run. Cant tell much from the video but it looks like the Genuine VM22 got pretty rich through the run hitting like low 10s and then 9s. With small motors TQ is going to fluctuate a decent amount going from say 12-13 afr in a run to say 9-10s afr.
I was noticing the same thing, the 2nd and 4th carbs were running way leaner than the other 2. The old saying lean is mean prevails.
Considering that only one carburetor was running the right AFR! I feel like more effort would prove different results? The VM22 knock-off was at 0.65 lambda, or 9.5 AFR isn't fair compared to 0.92 lambda or 13.5 AFR! There was more power to be made with the other carb!
Since you have AFR hooked up can you tell me your jet sizes in the vm22? Our altitude is close from your area and mine and I have similar upgrades. Also what spark plug are you using for these test?
Be cool to see an overlapping graph in comparison to see who has the flatest curve keeping that hp number up near the top.
These videos are very good and really help with my mud motors for duck boats. A full stage 2 with the flat slide should rip on a 14ft 36in wide flat bottom
Did you have any luck with this? I can't get TM24 to tune to save my life. On the water yesterday it was spraying fuel everywhere out the vent tubes. I think the needle or main needs adjusting still but it also managed to flood with all the vibration.
@@HeegeMcGee what carb are you running? I had the same issue with a makuni, I wound up using a needle and set with a lot smaller hole for fuel to flow through and fixed it
I’m lovin these comparisons on your new Dyno.
Whats that black piece u put before the vm22 clone
Built a non hemi 212 for my baja mini bike, bought the knock off mikuni off amazon in a kit just trying to save some money, though I expected the knock off to be worse I was surprised to see the differences!
My go to "build" is a vm22 clone, full governor delete, 22lb springs, and a header. I don't bother with the flywheel or rod since they cost almost as much as a new engine. Out of 20+ builds and 1000+ hours I've only had one flywheel break and have never lost a rod. For around $60 you are north of 10hp. Can't beat that bang for your buck.
What I found is that there is quite a difference with the VM22 clone stock lift cam versus a bigger cam like one with a 265 lift. Big difference even running less than 5K RPM.
What do you think the results would be putting on a carb upgrade and exhaust on a stock engine?
Leaving in the governor, stock fly wheel and valve springs. My guess is you'd likely get 10hp.
I definitely like how consistent the power output looked with the TM24 vs. the others.
Yeah it’s by far my favorite.
This is a cool series. I love building my engines so I'm digging this information Red. Very nice presentation.
Glad you enjoyed it
What jets did you run in the knock off Mikuni?
i use the pz20-24 amazon specials, just for the convenience of adjusting carb screws. curious if you can dyno that one. thanks and great content like always!
Is it practical to install a Mikuni 24mm flat slide carb if you are not removing the govoner? I've ordered the carb, and I was going to just set it on the shelf until I had the money for the rest of the Stage 2 kit, but then I was thinking, maybe I shouldn't wait. What do you think?
Redbeard's becoming by superhero great job great video
Try the nibbi pwk it's a good in between the plat slid and the round slide . Easy to tune and good power.
Vm26?
I love watching these hp videos
This is pretty cool, I have used the knock off pwk 24mm D slide carbs and had great results with them, easy to tune, they hold up great with e85, and red and black looks cool.
Can't wait till you get to camshafts, I built a high compression, ported, big valve hemi 212 that I tried different cams on and I settled for the mod 2, the fire 265 just didn't do it, couldn't tell the difference from stock (all cams had 1.2 rockers)
Also would be interested in testing fuel types, butt dyno tells me e85 makes a difference.
Came here to comment about fuel also! Been running mine on e85 and it seems to make a difference to me as well.
Great job Redbeard it's amazing what a carburetor can do
I run a and 24
Sorry my damn phone ain't working right
Awesome Intel RBG !
Gonna rob the Predator 212 off my defunct log splitter to mod it for a Mega Moto 212 build.
Will "caging" the governor spring with zip tie (temporarily) be similar to governor removal ?
TY for your input.
Or to others who know the answer.
Not that it really needed proving, but it had to be done so I finally have a source to show somebody when they jump straight to a too big carb for their engine in the quest for power. Number one most common mistake made by newbies and the ignorant.
I have the vm22 official, and when i choke the motor, nothing. If i put it on run give just the smalles gas, and it roars to life. Is that a vaccum leak? was thinkin of tryin the rubber hose fitting yall use.
I got the Nibbi PE26 like $80 it came with #40 pilot and #105 main jet with a extra #35 pilot and #110,#115,#118 main jets to tune to your sea level and whatnot, i have the hisun 196 that came on the coleman and that carb feels so good, looks mad sexy, and also so easy to tune. I would love to see the dyno difference going from 24mm to 26mm. I doubt the performance is worth $40 more than the clone carb but you never know its worth a test. IMO
Why did you rev the engine up to 6400 with the 22mm clone and the 24 flat slide but stopped at a lower rpm on the mikuni 22mm? It looked like the hp numbers were still climbing on the mikuni 22mm and it may have made better numbers if you would have revved it up to 6400 like the other 2 carbs
They all stopped making power before that. No point in pushing them further.
Great vid.. i would like to see all data on one graph. I guess you can export all data to excel and create graph. If help needed, i would be happy to help
Great work ! It’s hard to tell the difference if you aren’t tubning it
RBG can you or others comment on the relative benefit of bumping up to the 301cc or 420cc larger Predators ?
Vs the Uber popular 212 - so long as the weight & dimensions on the larger two aren't out of line with the typical Mini Bike available frame space - wouldn't the old adage of "there ain't no replacement for DISPLACEMENT hold true ?
(IE: less radical mods required on 301 / 420cc ?)
I wonder if you could get more horsepower out of the genuine vm22 by changing the jet sizes
Awesome series! I’m so glad you have a dyno now, for some shootouts and tuning!
Now that you have the 24mm on tap, I can’t wait to see what camshaft selection does to take advantage of the airflow.
Oh, when you swap in the billet rod, can you weigh the stock and billet rods?
@RedBeard - What size jet did you use in the VM22 Clone? (Or others can chime in if you have a preferred jet set-up, esp if using a non-stock cam.) Thanks
Support.
when you chuck a cam in it, please use the VM22 Knock off... I would love to see the stock can v mod2 v fire 265 (hottest of the cheaper cams)
I will try different carbs with different cams.
Thanks for doing this series
Is AFR being recorded during these dyno tests?
I run Nibbi 30mm on most my bikes. 224s have great throttle response with the 30mm Nibbi's
30mm in my opinion is way to big. You will never be able to flow that much with the stock valves. I can test on but don’t think it will improve much.
There is an old dude named David vizard what wrote the book on engines literally he figured out that an expansion chamber after the collector made the engine think it had a straight pipe I'm thinking an expansion chamber about where the standard muffler would be might do this on a 212 the engine doesn't see the restriction of a muffler after the chamber
Really need to set up a wideband O2 sensor to be sure you're getting all you can out of each carb.
It has a wide band. If you look on the screen it’s under the dyno rpm.
@@RedBeardsGarage oh, ok. Well that's cool. Can't wait to see some big blocks on the Dyno once you're done with the 212/225s
Subscribed :) Aside from the cost of the minibike... what was the total cost of making it street legal?
Can you add the numbers at the governed rpms. Some of us have rototillers and snow blowers that need more torque. Thanks!