Thanks for watching everyone, and thanks to PJiggles for being onboard with this idea! I've cut out a lot from the original videos so if you were hoping to see more, I've got links to those below. Let me know your thoughts on the rankings, as well as any similar ideas you might like to see here in the future! PJiggles' original videos: th-cam.com/video/4dZrlUfvAfQ/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/BIu85aqI9pA/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/vqS6_Fl5FVI/w-d-xo.html *Main channel:* th-cam.com/users/mockrocktv *Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock *Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock *Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch *Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock *TimeBolt affiliate link* (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/
I personally think that Kazuya's worst move is wind god fist, since it is straight Up a worse version of electric Wind god fist and the ten Hit combo does around 40% damage and kinda works at ledge and can cheese your opponet with a buffered air dogde and the jab itself actually kills with jab 3 and jab 2 can Combo into Grab, Gates of hell and allows for an infinite at around 120%...
I'm convinced that Kirby Mains actively spread false propaganda about his Down Air being bad just so we underestimate them right before they gimp us offstage at 5%.
I fell for their trickery some time ago. When I was playing some Kirby I looked up some guides and tips and they would always talk about how Down air is the worst move… And it’s absolutely not. It’s definitely not his BEST move but it’s certainly not the worst move in his arsenal.
The reason for Charizard’s tip being inaccurate is because it was literally copy-pasted from Smash 4, where Charizard’s wings didn’t actually have a hurtbox at all. Most fighters tips are re-used for this game, which is weird since they made new ones for a few moves anyway.
I think the asset are actually a mix of Brawl and ssb4, Like in the previous installment, Sheik will revert to her Brawl idle animation while holding a small throwable item. Dark Pit and Chrom absent in brawl will reverts to Marth and Pit's Brawl idle and crouching animations while holding a small throwable item. Like in ssb4, characters that could glide in Brawl still retain the code for it despite it being removed. However, Ridley, a newcomer, has code for being able to glide despite him not being able to. The code for the glide is nearly identical to Charizard's, suggesting Ridley was made using Charizard as a base, and that the code for gliding was a carryover. Developpers remove what was ported before the product release but some trace can retain in the data
@@Jfray252 Ah, that's actually interesting. I always noticed that if you picked up a small throw able item, many of the characters revert to their previous installment idle animations such as the ones you listed as well as Mewtwo who reverts to his smash 4 idle. Initially I thought it was a neat touch/Easter egg but this makes more sense. Just an oversight if anything, still kinda cool though.
Great video! Watched it all the way through, was fun to see my own videos with such a unique twist on it. Anyways one thing I really wanna stress to anyone watching this video now is that every single move picked was not my opinion but rather that character's Discord, which is also the case for 99% of the reasonings given for those moves being bad, I was just the messenger boy in this series. Also some Discords really weren't all too interested in telling me much about why a move is lacking, Duck Hunt and R.O.B. come to mind as two notable examples where the people there really didn't feel like giving me much info. That aside this was an enjoyable watch, nice job MockRock! Get neutral tilted nerd 😎
Well I love to follow this trilogy personally is my favorite vids from your channel I watch them once in a while I still follow others in your channel but this trilogy is just get into the point for me ^^
Thanks! I did want to make sure the "this is Discord's opinion" point got raised early but really appreciate the extra context here, makes sense to me. Also fuck you.
I love how MockRock has fallen into the position of being the biggest Ridley down air defender on TH-cam by complete accident over the years. He's made just enough videos centered around the topic of worst moves in the game that he's had to defend it as not the worst multiple times in multiple categories, and that's more than anyone else has done for it, lol.
@crystalblade13 I find it only works once against low level players, or players that aren't paying attention. Skewer is actually pretty hard to react to compared to the other big moves so it can easily catch someone off guard. Most higher level players will be too unpredictable to land a Skewer consistently.
@Angelic I mean, Ridley did use to have the infamous down throw -> Skewer mixup (PJiggles’ video was made before 8.0 when Skewer was nerfed by being coded as a grab)
27:44 Just want to say that, yes, being unable to infinitely charge Rollout does matter. If you were getting close to a timeout situation while you're up, simply charging rollout is a decent mindgame. They stand there, ready to jump over when you let it rip, but if you just never do, it takes them a bit to realize. They have to come to you, and there's quite a few characters who can't directly hurt Jigglypuff with a projectile, meaning you can simply wait until they enter Jigglypuff's periphery and then exit out of the situation with an insanely fast burst option that tends to end with you ejected offstage where you can stall for even longer. And yes, I did do this in tournament.
8, 1, 6, 3, 2, 4, 4, 8, 6, 5, 1, 8, 8, 6, 1, 1, 5, 6, 1, 2, 8, 9, 1, 2, (7) (If I need to correct, tell me) So, the amount he rolled each number is: 1: 5 times 2: twice 3: once 4: twice 5: twice 6: 4 times 7: once 8: 5 times 9: once
I mean, same principal: Edge Guarding options that get you killed will become less used, and thus die out the same way species that are worse at surviving will die off sooner than the ones better equipped.
@@TheRoboKittynot think, *are* stupid. Not only did they prey hard on their young gullible fanbase during the whole crypto fad and the scam with jake after that. They also disregard morals regularly if the potential is high enough be it the dead or living. But after a while they did slowly drift away from that kind of content, but they have already shown that it wasn't because decency but because they found other routes that can generate more. They are at worst showboats now.
VERY hard to do because it's a property that actually pops up all over the place, case in point: th-cam.com/video/6otYQPH0FiQ/w-d-xo.html So that's gonna spiral pretty quickly into a "let's rank most moves in the game" video without some more restrictions on it lol
@@MockRockTalk I'm legit curious. What if you just rank the ones that are most likely to trip / trip most consistently? Just set an arbitrary (albeit on the higher end) percentage chance of a move tripping and go from there? Obviously, this is still tripping we're talking about, but no one can ever claim that there isn't a competitive meta for style points acquired due to your opponent's bad luck, lol. Speaking of other randomly occuring events in Smash, do screen and star KOs have the same or consistent chances of happening, or is there actually a way to change those chances during a match, aside from just using certain items?
I feel like your hesitance to “retread” ideas other content creators have done shouldn’t be as much of a concern because to me, your content isn’t enjoyable because of what topics you choose. It’s enjoyable because you’re the one covering them. You’re well spoken and defend your points as objectively and reasonably as you can. Sure, anybody can argue what they think is the best or worst move for every character, but you always seem to do the most research and explain yourself the most thoroughly.
I appreciate that! I'm not always going to worry about treading on other creators' toes, particularly for very generic ideas, but it is something I try to avoid if I've got other similarly appealing ideas to work on. "Every Character's Worst Move" is a pretty specific concept and this video essentially recreates it, so if PJiggles hadn't been onboard I probably would have passed even if it would still fall under fair use. A more generic tier list, reaction video, etc. doesn't really have the same concerns for me.
i disagree. it's a good stance to have and i admire MR for taking it, especially in direct light of other smash youtubers biting this move-tier-list bit exactly as he does it
at 1:36:40 or so yes this is me, the very guy who made that footstool attack document. you ask "why!?" and i reply; "i realized footstool attack wasnt frame 1 and you could act out of footstools frame 1, so i had to see everything that could beat the attack". that was my ulterior motive for creating the document. and im glad you found it funny lmao also if you want a worst move that ISNT footstool attack, its very very likely DAir. plant just has better edgeguard options and dair usmash is one of the single worst kill confirms in the game off a meteor smash cus its hard to hit, unsafe if it misses or is blocked, and hard to actually combo. it has its place as a niche landing option tho, it autocancels surprisingly quick and has 6 frames of disjoint below plant, so yay i guess.
Adding onto Lucario, the vid was made pre dsmash buff which gave him an easier kill move out of a jab lock. It's still a terrible move and his worst non-throw though, even after buffing it to being his fastest ground move, but thought it was worth clarifying
Well i mean we don't actually think kirby dair is the worst move in his kit, it's mostly a joke within the kirby main community (which sucks ass btw) In some ways however, hammer IS better than dair. Most people think hammer is a completely useless move, but hammer actually has a few uses. It's great at shield breaking, it kills at like 15% which is great for shield breaks and it's surprisingly good at ledgetrapping, like ACTUALLY good at ledgetrapping (though it's uses are quite niche ngl)
@@El_Mince oh nonono i didn't mean that kind of ledgetrap although it does 2 frame iirc, might be wrong tho Like i said, its uses are very niche but they do work, hammer might be slow while using it in the ground... ever though about using it in the air? Kirby can jump while using hammer and if you release hammer the exact moment you jump then hammer will actually be quite fast and even lagless. It's even better when you remember that aerial hammer has a double swing, which is great for: shield breaking on platforms, catching jump from ledge, catching attack get up (with the double swing), catching neutral get up (again, with the double swing) and the lagless aspect of it can be useful for doing a quick back air or ftilt or even downsmash if they roll, it does require you to get the right timing though
55:15 There is no move that gives „extra“ rage but there is one move that isn’t Lucarios that has an aura mechanic. It’s Mii Brawlers Side Special Onslaught just wanted to point that out
That move's "extra rage" also has a recharge. If you use it once, you have to wait about 8 seconds for the move to get the extra rage multiplier back, otherwise it just scales with normal rage (you can tell when it comes back by a glow in the Mii's foot). This was obviously a necessary balance mechanic and Onslaught would've been incredibly broken and meta defining without it.
As an onslaught obsessed fanatic myself, other random thing is that the launcher has fixed weight set to true, which force sets all characters weight to 100 for kb calcs, and they are only effected by normal hitstun gravity(around 1.8) for about 10 frames before going back to their default gravities. Mythra's nspecial had this before being patched. This means onslaught kills ganon earlier than pichu
PJiggles: "Yeah it's his worst move. It's active frame 1, full body intangibility, positive on block, jump cancellable, and covers half the stage in a hitbox that kills at 25%; so yeah, it's not bad, but definitely his worst."
It’s kinda a side effect of asking a bunch of character discords. Because you remember the 20 times you got punished for using a down air that you’ve used 1000 times total more than the 0 times you were hit out of a side special you used 0 times total.
I agree with Mac's aerials, Nair is better then Dair in general but I do think Dair is better in the context of his kit purely due to the recovery utility (Little Mac going under Smashville is crazy) I disagree for Pyra, though, Flame Nova makes good shield pressure and has good edgeguarding utility. Up tilt is a common pick, though players like Sparg0 use it to cover the opponent's ledge options, which is a legitimately really good use case. Down tilt provides some combos and is a solid move otherwise. I think down smash would be Pyra's worst move, you rarely see it used as it never tends to get much done when it is pulled out.
Pyra wasn't a super solidified choice (actually probably the one I feel least strongly about for any of the newcomers), I could see a case for down smash as well
Pyra's up-tilt is a pretty good kill move (kills earlier then up air I believe) that has huge range. There's a reason why Nairo wants Cosmos to use up-tilt more often.
Speaking as a Smash 4 Pac-Main, who's at least messed around with him in Ultimate, you absolutely nailed it with his utilt vs dtilt. dtilt isn't a great move by any means, but it's very usable and is actually a pretty good poke. Meanwhile IMO, the only reason Pac utilt isn't the worst in the game is because it loses to Ganondorf. It's straight up one of the worst combo starters in the game.
I play a lot of pac-man and yeah.. his utilt is only an occasional anti-air but he has better moves that do the same thing. It kinda combos into up-smash but thats still assuming you land it
I’d say as a Pac-Main, both are actually pretty good! Utilt gets way too much ire from people who don’t know about it’s use, it’s really good out of Galaxian from ledge or Bell at low percents, and it combos very very well, so I’d say it’s average and very underrated. It also is very disjointed and lagless so it's a great platform pressure tool, compared to worse Utilts like Rosa or Ivy or Ganon. Dtilt is also a great safe poke so it's not in contention. I’d say his worst move is Usmash since it’s way too overcommittal unlike his tilts and it doesn’t work half the time, especially during Bell, and you’re way better off doing Fsmash, Bair, or Side B, since they kill around the same percent. It’s also outclassed OOS by Fair Nair Dair and Fruits, and for juggling you’re better off using Utilt or catching landings with Fruits or dash attack since Pac Usmash is thin. Not bad at all, all of Pac's moves are good, it's just Usmash has way less going for it and is very inconsistent. Tldr: All of Pacs moves are good and Usmash is outclassed in every way while Utilt is very underrated
Fitting how Mega Man's worst move is considered one of his worst moves in his home series and has a lot of similar issues, too! Both are inconsistent, have VERY niche uses, have you at risk of getting hit easily, and there are way better moves/weapons in his arsenal that he can use. As a side note, Kazuya's worst move, to me, is Crouch Spin Kick, A.K.A., Crouching Down Back Tilt. It doesn't combo, it doesn't kill, and it's got terrible range. The only real "use" for it is for setting up tech situations, but you have to commit more than it's actually worth to execute the move in the first place since if you do Down Back Tilt too soon, you'll get Stature Smash, which is a better move overall, but not something you wanna just throw out. Crouch Spin Kick requires too much commitment that could've been used for something better like an EWGF, a Flash Punch Combo, some hits from 10 Hit Combo as a mix-up, a grab or Gates of Hell throw, Demon God Fist, Devil Fist, and PLENTY more options that vary in their usefulness that are all still superior to Crouch Spin Kick.
For lucas, dash attack has 37 faf and lingers from frame 13-17. It has top ten knockback for a dash attack and can be as safe as -8 on shield if the sweetspot is spaced. It's like a grounded ftilt that moves him forward at the cost of being slower. It's a great ftilt complement when people have been conditioned by ftilt's threat range. Frame 13 is still unreactable and demands respect. Pk freeze is far from his worst move as well. With middling charge it's -9 to -12 on oos options and +2 to -2 on shield drop. It travels faster horizontally than yoshi does in the air. Parrying it is extremely risky because it only has a 5 frame grace period before detonation once the special button is released & once lucas releases the special button from freeze's charge, it will detonate, even if he's hit a frame later. Freeze is very safe during a character's landing. Or if you time it properly to a character grabbing the ledge because it forces a set option like normal getup. Freeze also only has 23 frames of endlag, making it extremely hard to punish if lucas is properly spaced. His worst move imo is jab. Dtilt outclasses it mostly everywhere else except as a jab locking option.
"Forward air's a little bit weaker, but that's like asking which of the Paul brothers is less of a tool." Finally. Irrefutable evidence that MockRock can do comedy.
@@theenderkirby or down smash. i actually use down air way more often because it combos into fair at low percents (desynced) and it's a part of the dthrow (footstool dair) [fsmash] true combo that is extremely useful and kills early
@@nastyfrogproductions fair enough ICs are my in my top 5 least used character to begin with and from my pretty minimal expriience from them now I can get your point with no problem thanks ^^
Also I feel like the metric of just calling out the “worst move” in a character doesn’t put it into perspective enough because some of these selections feel like the mains were competing the move with other character moves instead of within itself. I rather a more accurate question would be something hypothetical like “If a character is forced to have a move from them taken away yet you’re allowed to choose. Which one would it be?” Because it kind of puts them closer to know what they’re supposed to mean when they refer to a character’s worst move.
Plus I just think it brings them more to the mentality of which move is worth sacrificing that reduces the least amount of a character’s viability… …or in Yoshi’s case, worth sacrificing to increase a character’s viability
@@Cyprimm Late again, but that’s actually a good point. A character’s “worst move” should just be about which move is bad within the *actual* character like is it to situational or is it basically downright unusable instead of having it compete with other moves because that’s just unfair from a standpoint.
if we isolated discussion strictly within the characters kit, almost every up b would be off the table because you would never want to lose your recovery move. that makes it impossible to discuss chrom's up b even though it's his biggest weakness as a character. it's one of the last moves you would want to remove from the kit, but at the same time it's really the only thing in his kit that's preventing him from being an amazing character. i feel like the question "which move would you most want to replace with the majority of other moves in that slot?" feels appropriate to me. it avoids the down smash problem from pjiggles video; you're going to see most characters spamming their nair or fair way more often than their down smash because aerial approaches are just a much larger part of smash than punishing a wide horizontal space around you. the general design of down smashes are just made to solve a relatively specific problem. having a situational down smash is just not as big of a deal as having a situational nair. we don't have to be giving every character gnw up b or shulk monado arts. move slots generally are dedicated to specific functions, such as up bs being recoveries, or ftilts being fast pokes, and if you can generally see a plethora of options that would be more useful than the move a character actually has, it's probably a sign that the move is a pretty large weakness in that context of their kit.
@@russellhassan7773 well that has a gigantic issue too. Some moves are way more important than others. If a character had an up throw that did healed their opponent and did 100 self damage, and a kinda bad nair, theyd choose nair for a replacement because its just more important, even if the up throw is hilariously bad.
Maybe, but if it wasn't being replaced in this hypothetical than removing an important move like an recovery even if it was really bad would not be great
I gotta say, I completely disagree with you on Pichu. I think without a doubt skullbash is the worst move on him. It’s only for recovery, which then up B is still better for recovery. And for hitting shield? Like PJiggles said, you can easily hit Pichu out of it or, ya know, jump out of the way, and if Pichu fully charges it, he just dies. So he almost never wants to fully charge it unless a shield break.
Honestly, as a bowser main, I’m surprised he didn’t even mention dash attack as one of bowsers worst move contenders. Even though it’s somewhat fast, it does poor damage (although 14% isn’t that bad) but all of bowsers moves are stronger and do more damage than that, it doesn’t kill, doesn’t combo, literally the only thing I can see it being used for is just a get off me tool or as a follow up from down tilt
Yeah most of the time as Bowser you’d rather Pivot Ftilt, Pivot Utilt, Side B, or approach from the air. Dtilt at least kills pretty well and is a fine enough move that is overshadowed while Dash attack is a legitimately bad move that really does nothing for Bowser and gets you punished for using it.
@@YounesLayachi like I said, even though it’s fast, bowser has up smash to catch landings which also has invincibility frames, and bowser has dash cancel f tilt. F tilt may be slower, but it has tough guy frames and it has more shield pressure. Besides, down tilt at least has a use in two framing even if it’s outclassed by f tilt in almost every way. Dash attack literally gets outshined by all of his moves
55:05 Moves with high base knockback scale harder with rage, because percent is only a multiplier on knockback growth, while rage is a multiplier on both base knockback and knockback growth. And Sonic's up smash has an unusually high amount of base knockback.
My guess is that the players with the odd opinions are frustrated with the mediocre moves that they need to use, leading them to rank them below the truly useless moves because they never use them and thus haven't built up any negative feelings towards them
Nah, My girlfriend just recently picked up Smash Bros and instantly loved Kirby...Unfortunately she didnt realise that there are more buttons and combos than just "B" so Hammer spam is the way to go and its her fave move....she doesnt even know you can walk, turn or charge it up...thats just how I picture all Kirby Mains.
Kirby Main here! Ya it’s definitely not dair 😂. That was my reaction too when I first saw that but then found out it’s just a joke within the community. It’s easily hammer and it’s not even close. Dair simply invalidates some recoveries
Something to note with Joker's jab, at high percents, jab 2 sometimes pushes the opponent away instead of pulling in and it results in jab 3 whiffing and makes it super unsafe, so much so that most characters can punish you with a smash attack. Of course it doesn't always happen since it is also based on reaction but you can also deliberately sdi out of it then punish accordingly so it kinda sucks
Big videos on the mechanics and viability of certain fighters/moves are always my favorites. It's a damn shame they're not passed around as often because they really do an amazing job at explaining the reasoning behind what makes something a bad move and you do an incredible amount of work to show this off from every angle! Thanks for the video! I loved it as always!
Personally I remember when that video came out, another youtuber named Juggleboy made an analysis of kirby's down air after the discourse of that video. They make some really good points about how its not his worst move, but it definitely isnt his best either. I've link the video here in case anyone wants to view it. th-cam.com/video/KWA16G1KM5U/w-d-xo.html
The problem with using character discords I imagine is that when you very loyally play a character and follow their community, you tend to overly value their gimmick because gimmicks are usually fun if you can get them, and you probably have tons of experience playing against all kinds of players so you’ve probably hit the gimmick a few times even if it’s not good. Ridley mainly brought this to mind.
Honestly even with this knowledge, I would still absolutely say his Dair is worse than skewer. If not then as bad as skewer. Dair's only advantages, its start up at 11 frames and how it kills at very high percents, are not very good. 11 frames is not very fast in a game where quick aerials are universally common, and its kill power is nothing to write home about. Ridley's dair does have a unique quality of being the strongest spike of all down airs which is a unique title. But its far too unwieldy to use consistently as a spiking tool and this is more of fun trivia than an upside to me. and its downsides of -no intangibility -incredibly easy to challenge in the air -no horizontal hitbox -no shockwave -GROSS 32 frames of landing lag Its unsalvageable. Skewer's startup is more generous than the landing lag of dair.
@@Krona-fb4dn Skewer is a tiny 30 frame move bruh, you can at least use down air to try to trade when being juggled while skewer has no practical application at all.
@@thehuman2cs715 I can tell you don't play Ridley. Skewer is 30 frames, after that its actually done, *Dair has 32 frames of landing lag*, at least when used optimally, skewer is a good distance away. Dair is just one stagnant hitbox that is extremely easy to punish and see coming. Skewer works great with tech chases which ridley DOES get plenty of opportunity to go for with for dthrow and ftilt and dtilt.
@@Krona-fb4dn bruh Ridley is my secondary, I can tell you I use down air a fair bit but don't think I've ever seriously used Skewer. Sure down air isn't good but at anything below top level an 11 frame down air is still plenty fast enough for what it needs to do.
@@thehuman2cs715 32 frames of endlag for 11% is not gonna be worth it. Also you should never use dair. Getting a tech chase with skewer is actually a thing you can do and reasonably do as Ridley.
As a fellow Dark Pit player, I feel like forward tilt is DP’s worst move by far because of how it just gets out-classed in pretty much every field by forward smash.
It still has respectable range, though. And you can catch your opponent off guard. Not to mention it kills. I guess forward smash is better but I feel like up tilt is his worst move. Down tilt already combos and up smash is the better pressure move on platforms
@@julezzz_08 It's tipper dependant, so it either puts opponents back in offstage or kills. UTilt can actually pick up both Jumps and neutral getups, trades with getup attacks and is decently safe to whiff. FTilt doesn't do anything if it whiffs outside of conditioning a jump, since whiffing it puts Pit in a million years of endlag.
Idk if its been mentioned, but as someone in the miicords, gale stab was really only the worst move cause it didnt grab ledge when you hit someone. Which meant free ledge trapping by standing at ledge and spotdodging. It got shadow fixed in patch 12.0.0, so its not the worst anymore.
1:11:27 The reason you now see more Gale Stab users than before is because the issue shown at the above timestamp was patched in one of the last few updates (Update 12.0; after PJiggles video), so now it CAN grab ledges after hitting an opponent in the air. That small issue is singlehandedly why it was considered worse than even Blurring Blade at the time.
Charizard's up tilt makes me upset because his wings used to be intangible in Smash 4 - I remember some people who did actually complain about Mewtwo not having a tail hurtbox in the Smash 4 days, but LITERALLY NOBODY was asking for Charizard's wings to get the same treatment
Something not mentioned about inklings up-tilt is that it got a significant buff. Before the buff it only functioned on tall and large characters meaning it just couldn’t hit a character like pikachu if they weren’t directly above you. The buff fixed the hit box to follow inklings feet through the whole arc so it can actually reliably hit now.
As someone who plays Bowser Jr. from time to time, his down smash is actually really fast start up surprisingly, (I do think it got buffed between the video and now) I do see nuetral special as his worst move, even if it's not a bad move.
Wii fit fair is actually quite important for her gameplan nowadays, it's by far her safest aerial (autocanceling super early and being very safe on shield), and she gets a lot out of both the front hit - which combos into itself at low percents and kills at high percents - and the back hit, which jablocks and true combos into fstrong/bair for early kills if you land with it
8:01 I heard alpharad talk about this as one of my first smash videos I ever saw the threat of a move can be so much more impactful than the move it self Really good thing to recognise
Fox laser also unstales his other moves, which is really helpful for a character who is going to enter repeated bair ledgetrap scenarios or require multiple upsmashes to finish a stock
Yeah, with corrin it's definitely counter. It has some niche use as a counter-juggling option but Corrin already has down air for that which does lots of damage, hits far below, and either sets up for a tech chase when you hit or autocancels allowing you to be safe. Plus you can use back air to mix up aerial drift and escape from juggles that way too. You could also use it while you're the one juggling to catch landing aerials or stall-and-falls, but again why not just outrange with up air. And if you're reading a stall-and-fall down air with that much commitment, why not just move out of the way and hit a tipper forward smash for a free early kill. It's only really usable for cheese, and even then not nearly as good as sm4sh pre-nerf where it was so ridiculously strong it could kill at 0. Honestly I wish that was still a thing, making the move insanely strong gives it at least some viability for hard reads and if you die at 0 to it that's kind of your fault. Why are you using fully charged forward smash or warlock punch in neutral.
I'm not gonna pretend to be actually good, but I feel up smash is worse. It's so thin. I find counter gets me out of things or helps anti air recoveries
@@mor3gan285 Up smash is one of corrin's worse moves but I don't think it's THE worst. It has at least a few things going for it. (It consistently tippers on platforms which similar up smashes like marth's don't, and it also has corrin duck really low in the animation so you can hurtbox shift below lots of aerial attacks.) It's definitely one of the less useful moves though. I only use it at kill percents for platform tech chases.
@@RandomNirvanaSXE Dash attack can at least give you combos at low percents. And the fact its so long lasting makes it decent for catching landings. It could honestly be way better though.
Thing with counter is that you dont have to use it but you can, and having one is always nice as a mixup even tho corrins is probably the worst bc it sends up. Up smash has at least the tipper that you can use for tech chases on platforms or (too risky) anti airs, down smash covers multiple options for aerial drift (which probably could be covered by reactional back air better) or ledge getup/tech coverage. Dash attack is really just a fast burst option that ranges further than back air on the ground (is far less safe though). My personal worst would be Jab, being as fast as down tilt (both frame 5) and you just get more out of hitting a down tilt than a Jab + its hitbox isnt reliable for Jab-locks
yeah Sora’s dair is a mixed bag, its kind of weird that it launches straight up but the no end lag when your high up enough is nice. If you hit someone near the ceiling it can kill surprising early with how fast it moves and its angle. SD dairs are just the worst kind to have in general
I was honestly surprised it was considered his worst, but it makes sense when Sora's whole kit is pretty rock solid. Dair is honestly super useful in any situation where your enemy is below you (which, as "Sword Puff" Sora, is not infrequently), and they either don't have enough time to react or don't have anything that can beat it out. In my experience I almost feel like I get more kills off the top with it instead of Up-B. lol
I like how you and PJiggles value different things. It makes the video more interesting, seeing it from a different POV. For example you care more about covering both sides with a d-smash, while PJiggle focuses on power and two frame potential. You care more about frame data, but PJiggle cares more about range.
I've recently been picking up the Icies and this has actually changed. I don't know the current one but now dash attack combos into up airs which does a lot. Something between 30-60.
They buffed the move in a patch, the hitbox got bigger so it actually connects properly when nana is there too. And you play icies, you know that's a big deal if you've landed a single up tilt up air
Sheik's Uptilt is actually quite a bit more useful, her worst move is definitely her rapid jab. Uptilt is really good for sheild pressure because, if spaced, cannot be sheild grabbed, pretty safe, and messes with your opponents tempo. It's also amazing for ledgetrapping, able to catch people jumping from ledge, hanging on ledge, and a lot of other options, while being able to combo into bair and bouncing fish between like 30-80 percent. At that's not mentioning the uptilt jablocks on platforms, and the other combo routes it opens up for her.
1:34:53 I’d argue that Samus’ Homing/Super Missiles count as separate moves while Incineroar’s Alolan Whip variants don’t. For Samus you decide which version to use when you first fire it out, meaning that you’re locked into either one from the moment you use the move. For Incineroar, you decide which version to use after you’ve already input the move and grabbed the opponent, so you can choose between the two on the fly. It’s the same reason Bowser’s command grab is the same move whether you decide to launch forwards, backwards or straight down with it.
(Can’t edit on mobile) Not sure how I’d list Hero’s Command Menu under these criteria, there are definitely arguments both ways but I’d probably say they’re the same move since in a lot of (probably most) cases you just have to use the move and then play the hand you’re dealt, in the same way as say Judge or Green Missile.
Hey so, for explanation why Fair on Wii Fit is actually really good is due to the fact that it covers people shielding on ledge super well along with side B, even breaking shields if you’re in Deep Breathing. The ledge is one of Wii Fit’s homes as she really benefits from being there due to Header sliding across the ground. So uh, there’s a small explanation, along with the fact that RaR Fair’s back hit stomp the opponent which consistently connects into FSmash for a kill.
You're right about Sephiroth's giga flare rarely connecting, but that doesn't mean it's not doing its job. It's mainly useful for ledge pressure, meaning that it can both kill the opponent on its own _and_ set them up to be killed by a different move. So the flare itself not hitting the opponent doesn't always mean the opponent isn't getting hit.
I would still probably say that Flare is runner-up for worst move. It has uses, mainly in ledge pressure and shield break punishing, which Sephiroth is pretty damn good at, but the startup is horrendous and the consistent timing on Gigaflare means it's never gonna actually hit at high levels. It's a mindgame and not much else, certainly a use but not a fantastic one. Not to mention that standard Flare is _still_ borderline useless, even casually. Megaflare's the best of the three but still not great. As a Sephiroth main, I would personally say his worst move is *Forward Smash* instead. It's not bad on its own, but it's pretty heavily outclassed. Forward Tilt is way faster, way safer, has almost as much range, and it still kills reasonably early. Even if you factor in the Winged form's armor, Down Smash is _also_ faster and safer, has similar range, kills off the top, two-frames from a stupidly safe distance, and *obliterates* shield.
ICs dash attack was buffed in the last patch and no joke it's one of their best moves now, and honestly one of the best dash attacks in the game period I think their worst move now is ftilt but even then it still has uses
@@MockRockTalk it combos into uairs for like 60 super easy damage, and with the buffs it combos out of landing aerials at low percents (in addition to being a pretty good burst option anyway) ICs in general are seriously misunderstood but yeah it's a really good combo starter and extender, in situations where they wouldn't be able to get anything else
As a longtime Duck Hunt player, you were completely right in your assessment. Dash attack does come in handy for occasional can combos, but your rebuttal to the other video really sealed the deal for me. Down air is an amazing move on Duck Hunt, and there are a good few confirms for it. It’s an essential part of any serious Duck Hunt main’s gameplay.
Dash attack was buffed for ICs after the initial video was released. It’s now one of their best moves since it now connects into itself reliably, combos into up-air, and kill confirms into up-b which funny enough was also buffed in the same patch so the worst move is probably d-air or d-smash for ICs
36:48 Oh my god, thank you for putting the discord logo on the screen here. I can't even begin to quantify how many times I hear a discord notification only to realize that it was from the video I'm watching and not Discord itself.
I feel like the argument that "if you can do in in training mode, you can do it in battle" doesn't quite work out. if it did, ice climbers would be literally unbeatable
"That's why I sometimes put entries in the thumbnails, sometimes I don't, to keep you on your toes on whether I spoiled you or not" I picked up on that and I think it really should be standard to do, I feel like most people only do either one of the other. In general I love your philosophy when it comes to content creation, e.g. detailed criteria disclosure at the start of videos, allowing exceptions but disclaiming them, too, thumbnail game, informative editing etc. you're one of the highest production value channels I know of and you always bring up interesting points of discussion even in the more casual videos. Been a long time lurker and I thought I'd just vent some praise ;p you've come so far as a TH-cam creator, keep up the good work
If we can consider (Dark)Samus' homing and super missiles as separate moves then I would argue the same for Sephiroth's 3 different tiers of his neutral special, so I would personally say that Gigaflare specifically is his worst move, no matter how much I may love it. It's just like Falcon Punch in the regard that it's not a good move because of how slow it is, but holy crap is it satisfying when you connect with it.
Sephiroth's neutral-b is definitely not his worst move, since just charging it forces a reaction out of someone on ledge which you can then cancel and react accordingly. That's not even getting into the b-reverse stuff when combined with wing that makes him really hard to track down.
I agree, it's scary and that's all it has to be, and even uncharged Flare is slow but can be useful for zoning. I'd say his worst move is either his jab or his down air. His jab is his fastest move but doesn't do great damage and isn't a good combo starter even at low percents, so it's only really useful for the normal jab fare like tech chases or a "get off me" at close range. And his down air has a pretty generous meteor hitbox on startup and you can do some alright cheesing through platforms and on the edge of FD/Battlefield-type stages, but the actual sword's hitbox is super narrow, it's punishable, and unless your opponent really bungles their recovery you're not gonna hit that meteor safely and it's a stall-and-fall so doing it offstage is basically a guaranteed SD. It has its applications but the downsides heavily outweigh the benefits.
@@ExaltedUriel dair actually does have some decent use as a footstool punish out of shield since aside from nair seph’s out of shield is pretty awful, it’s still not great but for a stall and fall it isn’t the worst. Jab is absolutely his worst move over flare though, I don’t get how Mock thinks such a great conditioning tool is his worst especially when jab does next to nothing aside the bare minimum but that’s just me
As a former Kirby main, I am genuinely so shocked. I know Juggleboy said something along the lines of like “dair is to mid-level play what stone is to casual play,” but it’s not unusable at a competitive level. I’m not sure how those Discord Kirby mains play, but they’re either not properly utilizing one of Kirby’s better offstage tools, or throwing out Hammer way more than they should to believe that Hammer is better than dair. I legit want to play a few rounds with them out of sheer curiosity.
I love Corrin Down-Smash. Backside sweet-spot is deadly, and both sides send the opponent at a really low angle for subsequent RAR-Bair edgeguards. Also, if you play Smash Stick, you can dash-pivot into the stronger back-side. In what world is it worse than Up-Smash or Counter? That said, the Kirby mains are genuinely trolling.
I think one thing that's important to remember with ike is that his up smash kinda fills the same role as his down smash in terms of covering both sides of him, but it kills more consistently than his down smash, and has lower end lag (I think)
Pound existing is another massive reason why Rollout can't even be brought up as a recovery move. If you want to mix it up with your 5 jumps and air dodge, Pound gives you so many more options, especially because it can stall for a long ass time
Im still a bit confused about pjiggle’s idea for incineroar’s alolan whip. Shouldn’t terry’s jab 3 also count as jab as a whole, considering you can choose whether or not to use it? Also, just like you can misinput alolan whip, you can misinput terry’s jab 3. If so, terry’s jab (jab 1 and 2) would be one of terry’s most useful moves in his kit.
Personally I love having Simons whip dangle, just because even tho he has an awful playstyle in Smash, it's pretty much a one-to-one representation of the Castlevania games, and even tho it's badly programmed, it's pretty damn funny if you played Super Castlevania as much as I did
For Olimar, I'd definitely say forward tilt. The only move that's really in competition is dash attack. Jab is his quickest move if your opponent manages to get in your face, down tilt and up tilt can maybe combo, and you actually see nair used quite a ton as an option off of ledge for it's safety. Even used as a landing option fairly commonly. Nair is very underrated imo, really solid move, just looks much worse when you compare it to the rest of Olimar's kit
i would definitely like to see a retrospective of the "every character's worst change in ultimate" at some point, i really liked the best change counterpart
What's funny about Metal Slash in the main Dragon Quest Series is that the move's purpose is to deal extra damage to Metal Slimes. Metal Slimes have Low health, but have such High defense that Most attacks only deal 1 Damage unless you crit (since crits in RPGs usually Ignore defense), and they dodge attacks pretty often too. Problem is, Metal Slash in DQ only SOMETIMES does 1 extra Damage to Metal Slimes. The skill becomes outclassed once you get Moves like Hatchet Man or Thunder Thrust (All or nothing Crit Moves) for Metal Slime Hunting. I think the Only other Enemy types Metal Slash does increase Damage to is Living Armor enemies and the Hunter Mech/Killing Machine series of enemies, and they usually have other weaknesses anyways. But yeah, Kaclang isn't any better either since it Renders the Party Member you use it on unable to move, and while that character IS invincible for a few turns, you also can't buff or Heal them.
The issue with Lucas’ jab is mostly just that it’s almost completely outclassed by Dtilt, which is frame 3, has more range, usually is much more rewarding, is more consistent, and is -6 on shield. Jab isn’t a bad move in a vacuum, Lucas just has almost nothing to do with it outside of jab locks. Up smash is probably his worst move in a vacuum; frame 28, extremely laggy, and not rewarding enough to justify the fact that it’s 2 frames away from being Falcon punchable out of shield. It does have invincibility on startup, which gives it a semblance of a niche, but overall it’s still just too slow for the risk of trying to i-frame through something to be worth it. Dash attack and PK Freeze are genuinely quite good moves; dash attack is very underrated, as it’s good at some very weird things for a dash attack, like being disjointed, safe on shield (-12 to -8 with good pushback), killing, and sort of being an antiair, while it’s bad at filling the roles a traditional dash attack does due to its speed and low burst range. Its attributes make it a pretty decent safe poke when spaced, as well as a strangely good ledgetrapping tool thanks to how wide the hitbox is, how it lingers for a decent while, and how much horizontal knockback it has. PK Freeze’s niche comes from how lagless it is on release. Lucas won’t be actually hitting people with Freeze too often, but just the threat of it is very often enough to force opponents to recover low or burn resources. Thanks to only having around 25 frames of lag on release, low recoveries and forced options (such as airdodges or jumps) are very often punishable. Tl;dr Freeze and dash attack are pretty good, jab is just outclassed by Dtilt, up smash is -54 on shield with 28 frames of startup and takes over a second and a half to complete
Fun fact: every usmash is jump cancellable within the first 3 frames. Its useless for every character except lucas, who gains full body intangibility frame 1 to idfk i dont play lucas. You may think im cappin here but check it out for yourself.
@@HippityhoppityGnW yeah, I’m aware of that; it’s still practically useless since it’s only a single frame (or two) of invincibility which is just too precise to make use of most of the time. It’s generally outclassed by parrying, though it theoretically could be useful for punishing certain multihits OoS. It’s extremely difficult though and I doubt anyone will actually make good use of it during ultimate’s lifespan lol
@@HippityhoppityGnW Honestly, it wouldn't even be that good as a mixup or combo breaker; in most situations in which you'd want to go for it as a mixup, parry or raw up smash is functional and _significantly_ more lenient, and as a combo breaker, most combos don't leave the target grounded, and shield is already a frame 1 combo breaker on the ground (aside from the fact that it can be grabbed). Attack cancel up smash (which I'll refer to as ACUS from now on) is, in my opinion, theoretically useful only against specific multihits on shield that do parry lock, but do not shield lock, and that are too safe to be punished using a normal OoS option or a raw up smash with invincibility. (By the way, the opponent hitting up smash's invincibility causes them, but not Lucas, to undergo hitlag, which makes them more minus on ACUS than they would be on shield, which is why an ACUS Fair could likely punish something that would normally be, say, -5 on shield.) If the multihit doesn't parry lock, you'd rather just go for the parry since it's easier, and if it's just punishable by a normal OoS option, you'd rather just go for that since it's also easier. The reason I feel like it's only useful on multihits is that the invincibility just does not last long enough to be useful for calling out most buttons that people will be using in neutral. There's just no way that you'd be able to call out someone's aerial down to the 60th or 30th of a second, especially when they themselves can't even consistently input it that precisely. Therefore, it's only potentially useful against moves that can be reacted to. Moves that are reactable on startup are almost universally already unsafe enough that they can just be punished directly out of shield, or out of parry, or on whiff, so there's no need for the extra frames provided by ACUS. The exceptions to this are multihits on shield, and projectiles. Projectiles do not cause the user to undergo hitlag if they hit an invincible opponent, so ACUS' niche of causing the opponent to undergo hitlag is gone versus them. This leaves only multihits on shield as attacks that could, theoretically, be punished by ACUS to any degree of consistency. Pikachu Nair is an example of something it could be useful on; it does parry lock, so Lucas can't just parry the final hit and punish with a tilt or something, but it doesn't shield lock, so Lucas is able to up smash between the hits, and it's only -7 on shield, so Lucas cannot normally punish it as his fastest standard OoS option is frame 10. In theory, Lucas could ACUS between the 3rd and 4th hits of Pikachu's Nair, and punish him with an aerial, likely Nair or Dair, since those are the least likely to be low-profiled. There are a few issues with this, though; one is that it's still extremely difficult, and the timing is unique for every single multihit it's applicable on. It's just not really worth it to practice this fully unique timing for every move it could theoretically be used against, especially when it's only helping you deal slightly better with one specific move in one specific matchup each time you practice it. This also doesn't even take into consideration that Lucas doesn't want to be shielding much at all in several matchups; many characters have dangerous grab followups, or they have other tools that can be used for shield pressure, especially considering that Lucas' most relevant OoS options are pretty slow at frame 10 and frame 12 (being Nair and Fair). Why would a Lucas player bother with ACUS OoS vs Pikachu's Nair when shielding leaves them extremely vulnerable to Pika's combo routes off of down throw, or to up throw>thunder, especially when Lucas has other tools for dealing with Pika's Nair and grab at the same time like Ftilt, Fair, Zair, and potentially even things like dash attack, PK Fire, or pivot grab? Point is, finding specific use cases for ACUS is already pretty hard, the timing is extremely difficult even in use cases that are tailor-made to favor it, and in practice, you usually don't even want to be going for it, since Lucas doesn't like shielding much in the first place.
Honestly, I always thought Jab was Sephiroth's worst move. I know you talked about how you found it really difficult to see Flare variants hit someone, but it seems like the conditioning that would come with forcing people to avoid it would make it useful.
I agree with the Discord on Ike. DSmash doesn't effectively cover both sides because it's so slow. The opponent can roll through and get their shield up before the back hit. If I'm anticipating a roll I'll probably just do turnaround FTilt or something. I'd rather have FSmash for hard reads - in fact, FSmash works for roll reads.
I think I see why your choices differ so much, PJiggles' list seems to be based more on which move a character would be least affected by losing, while yours seems to be more about which move a character would BENEFIT most from REPLACING, so down smashes in particular kind of inherently have a disadvantage in his list Just something I noticed
Ugh I can’t believe even after dropping the character over a year ago, I still have to deal with dumb af Kirby players saying D-air is useless and garbage while Hammer is underrated. It’s basically Kirby hipsters who think that and no one else. Look at any actual high level Kirby player and not discord users and you’ll see the difference in d-air use vs hammer use. Hammer is garbage and ever niche use people bring up is actually pointless and not real. Like how charged aerial hammer can break a full shield. That’s true, but it’s just a MU check gimmick and will never work against an opponent that knows about it because it’s so slow. Or using hammer to cover ledge jump. It can do that, or you can just use full hop/IDJ d-air into d-smash which is faster and is WAY more active. Also while opponents can sometimes fall out of d-air, that can happen with every multi-hit and d-air is more consistent than most. Also it’s auto cancel d-air ride combos are difficult, they aren’t inconsistent. Additionally there’s the landing d-air combos that on most characters combo into up-tilt. A character either has to have an unusually fast combo breaker or has to be a heavy that doesn’t have a frame 4 airdodge.
As a Bowser Jr main, I might still have to go with Down Smash - cannonball does have some nice use cases to deny some characters’ horizontal recovery. Another sneakily bad move is dash attack!
As a lucas main, I would have never thought of jab, but he's actually right. It's stubby, inconsistent, awful on shield, and most importantly gets outclassed by down tilt most of the time. Down tilt is only one frame slower, way safer, and combos into forward tilt. The only time that 1 frame is super important *might* be after a magnet on shield (+0), where a jab will beat any dodge but down tilt won't. It really hurts since it was so good in smash 4, where it had way more range and could scoop people behind him for some reason
Yea. It's his worst move, dash attack, ftilt and dtilt are much safer poking tools. Dash attack kills is as safe as ftilt but not grabable and not Possible to punish with long range out of shield options
By the way, while Rosalina up tilt didn't get changed, philosophy and combo trees have certainly changed and most Rosalina mains now often say Gravitational Pull is Rosalina's worst move. Outside of the Pac-man and King K Rool matchups, you essentially only see it as an offstage stall against people who don't want to follow you offstage due to its high commitment and inability to hit your opponent. While you can also use it to catch other item projectiles, that doesn't really stack up to up tilt's use in early combos and it has less commitment than up air or up smash (it's basically identical to up air, but Rosalina has the highest minimum airtime off a jump in the entire roster so it's pretty committal to jump). Gravitational Pull also has a class of projectiles immune to specifically it; these include PK Flash/freeze, Fully Charged Failnaught & the exploding hitboxes of Flare's various charges. Granted, since Luma up tilt actually is pretty good, that may make them think of solo rosa up tilt as better than it is, Gravitational Pull is just a mess; a big move where the idea payoff is an item pull
As a Mewtwo main, I fully agree on upsmash being the worst. The only time I will use it is to catch them when they tech on a platform. It's far too inconsistent otherwise. I use every other one of his moves consistently. His up air is a core part of combos (down tilt, into fair, into side b, into up air, then into fair as an example) and his fair is good for spikes, sour spot good for combo starters, it's also a pretty good out of shield mix up.
Pichu’s is definitely side b pichu doesn’t need the extra recovery boost and side b has a ton of end lag. At the very least pichu’s up b has multiple angles and is fast enough to get around where your opponent is in most cases, but side b just gets you punished and often spiked for using it off stage because it’s so linear
7:36 I agree with both you, and Charles on this one. Laser is so helpful at setting the pace of the game into Fox's favor, thay i have been appreciating it more and more as of late. Fox's least usefully move by far is shine, imo. It either does its job ok enough against zoners, or does nothing besides edge guarding. The risk reward is so skewed against Fox though, that I feel indifferent about how worth while it is go actually edge guard with it. I will say, looking over the cast as a whole. It does have some really good use against more top and high tier characters than you would think. Applying it to the general cast though, and no matter what way your using shine. It's utility is very clearly defined and therefore limited in its use. Reflecting, recovery mix ups, and edge guarding. Depending on what you value, I guess it is more "useful" than laser. But laser helps Fox with his general game plan more than shine, so I think for this reason it wins over shine in most, if not all cases.
It's really sad how bad samus's homing missiles are. And super missiles see some use but still not near as much as charge shot. Apart from some of her canonical abilities being missing that's my biggest gripe with samus's design in ultimate. her missiles are supposed to be devastating attacks but are mostly used for somewhat niche setups, while charge shot is almost always a better projectile and a way better kill move. Charge shot should be good too, but I think the difference between charge shot and missiles is far too much.
The sad thing is, in Melee her missiles had about as much power as you'd want them to (aka: they were an actual move), and in Ultimate, Mii Gunner of all characters has Samus's missiles from Melee, making the move currently outshined by a Mii!
DDDs FSmash used to have one pretty decent niche as it used to be a pretty decent shield breaking tool, which DDD doesn't have a lot of. That was because the Shockwave hitbox used to hit shields seperately from the hammer hitbox. But guess what, we can't have this Frame 40+ Move (had to slight charge it to break full shields btw) destroy shields in one hit, better change it so *the shockwave hitbox no longer hit shields seperately* , making it unable to break a full shield even at full charge.
Pikachus up smash is a very solid kill confirm for pikachu, nair>upsmash is one of his most prominent kill confirms. His worst move is ftilt, because its not nearly as good as setting up tech chases as dtilt and jab is a really good tech chase move and it unstales all your moves if u hit someone with it.
I think pyra’s neutral special works really well as a ledge pressure tool because it covers a lot of options. You can drift surprisingly well in the air and it’s safe enough on shield. Personally I think her worst move is down smash.
The sour spot is easy to land and the sweet spot doesn’t compare to up and especially forward smash but it’s not a bad move, it’s outclassed but it has its uses over other moves
@@kappadarwin9476 Generally, if you’re playing pyra it’s the other way around, so down smash doesn’t serve much purpose in her kit. Pyra’s only good at finishing off characters so you’ll usually never be in a situation where you’re hunted, and if you ever are, then you can up b, use tilts, etc.
55:09 Rage, like in Smash 4 (but to far less of an egregious degree), affects moves with higher base knockback values more, creating this idea of a "bigger rage spill". I don't know of many cases where it's as high as Sonic's up smash though.
Thanks for watching everyone, and thanks to PJiggles for being onboard with this idea! I've cut out a lot from the original videos so if you were hoping to see more, I've got links to those below. Let me know your thoughts on the rankings, as well as any similar ideas you might like to see here in the future!
PJiggles' original videos:
th-cam.com/video/4dZrlUfvAfQ/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/BIu85aqI9pA/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/vqS6_Fl5FVI/w-d-xo.html
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Literally thought of this idea just last night lol
5:07
that might be your rawest "wtf" ever
and deservingly so. i think those four people were just trolling pjiggles and he didn't pick up on it.
I personally think that Kazuya's worst move is wind god fist, since it is straight Up a worse version of electric Wind god fist and the ten Hit combo does around 40% damage and kinda works at ledge and can cheese your opponet with a buffered air dogde and the jab itself actually kills with jab 3 and jab 2 can Combo into Grab, Gates of hell and allows for an infinite at around 120%...
Lucas dash attack is not his worst move it's forward throw or jab
@@Kragglover2003 he didn’t count throws.
I'm convinced Kirby mains think Hammer is just something they dreamt up.
I'm convinced that Kirby Mains actively spread false propaganda about his Down Air being bad just so we underestimate them right before they gimp us offstage at 5%.
I’m convinced Kirby mains complain about D-Air in hopes that it will get buffed.
Why are Kirby mains such babies
I fell for their trickery some time ago. When I was playing some Kirby I looked up some guides and tips and they would always talk about how Down air is the worst move… And it’s absolutely not. It’s definitely not his BEST move but it’s certainly not the worst move in his arsenal.
i mean, hammer is basically the only way to break shields as Kirby, while dair is arguably outclassed by nair for edgeguards
The reason for Charizard’s tip being inaccurate is because it was literally copy-pasted from Smash 4, where Charizard’s wings didn’t actually have a hurtbox at all. Most fighters tips are re-used for this game, which is weird since they made new ones for a few moves anyway.
Ah that's interesting!
I mean, it's depressing and I hate that I know that now. But interesting!
@@MockRockTalk this applies to most things I've learnt on the Internet
I think the asset are actually a mix of Brawl and ssb4, Like in the previous installment, Sheik will revert to her Brawl idle animation while holding a small throwable item. Dark Pit and Chrom absent in brawl will reverts to Marth and Pit's Brawl idle and crouching animations while holding a small throwable item. Like in ssb4, characters that could glide in Brawl still retain the code for it despite it being removed. However, Ridley, a newcomer, has code for being able to glide despite him not being able to. The code for the glide is nearly identical to Charizard's, suggesting Ridley was made using Charizard as a base, and that the code for gliding was a carryover. Developpers remove what was ported before the product release but some trace can retain in the data
@@Jfray252 what
@@Jfray252 Ah, that's actually interesting. I always noticed that if you picked up a small throw able item, many of the characters revert to their previous installment idle animations such as the ones you listed as well as Mewtwo who reverts to his smash 4 idle. Initially I thought it was a neat touch/Easter egg but this makes more sense. Just an oversight if anything, still kinda cool though.
This is a timestamp for all the characters! :]
0:54 Mario
2:09 Link
3:06 Samus & Dark Samus
4:10 Yoshi
4:40 Kirby
7:06 Fox
8:31 Pikachu
10:20 Luigi
11:25 Ness
12:26 Captain Falcon
13:33 Peach and Daisy
14:55 Bowser
16:13 Ice Climbers
17:55 Sheik
19:09 Zelda
19:45 Dr. Mario
20:07 Pichu
21:19 Falco
22:55 Marth & Lucina
23:58 Young Link
25:55 Ganondorf
27:14 Jiggly Puff
31:20 Mewtwo
32:57 Roy & Chrom
34:52 Mr. Game & Watch
38:16 Meta Knight
40:03 Pit & Dark Pit
41:52 Zero Suit Samus
42:43 Wario
44:13 Snake
45:16 Ike
47:24 Squirtle
48:32 Ivysaur
49:28 Charizard
51:20 Diddy Kong
52:20 Lucas
54:08 Sonic
56:16 King Dedede
57:17 Olimar
58:23 Lucario
59:43 Rob
1:00:35 Toon Link
1:01:44 Wolf
1:03:02 Villager
1:04:22 Mega Man
1:05:22 Wii Fit Trainer
1:05:58 Rosalina & Luma
1:07:10 Little Mac
1:09:24 Greninja
1:09:58 Mii Fighter
1:12:33 Palutena
1:14:06 Pac-Man
1:15:22 Robin
1:17:50 Shulk
1:19:38 Bowser Jr.
1:20:41 Duck Hunt
1:21:55 Ryu & Ken
1:22:58 Cloud
1:23:43 Corrin
1:24:26 Bayonetta
1:25:09 Inkling
1:26:21 Ridley
1:28:20 Simon & Richter
1:30:29 Kind K. Rool
1:31:45 Isabelle
1:32:28 Incineroar
1:35:14 Piranha Plant
1:37:24 Joker
1:39:11 Hero
1:42:55 Banjo & Kazooie
1:44:54 Terry
1:45:31 Byelth
1:46:51 Min Min
1:47:10 Steve/Alex
1:47:26 Sephiroth
1:47:43 Pyra
1:47:52 Mythra
1:48:00 Kazuya
1:48:17 Sora
youre a god
How tf does this not have more likes
We gotta get this to top comment immediately
KIND DEDEDE?!
😂 I think you ment king
Edit: 56:16 says Kind Dedede
@@PrevTsukasaRui Kind Dedede🤣🤣 I fixed it now, my bad. I was pretty tired when making this list.
Great video! Watched it all the way through, was fun to see my own videos with such a unique twist on it.
Anyways one thing I really wanna stress to anyone watching this video now is that every single move picked was not my opinion but rather that character's Discord, which is also the case for 99% of the reasonings given for those moves being bad, I was just the messenger boy in this series. Also some Discords really weren't all too interested in telling me much about why a move is lacking, Duck Hunt and R.O.B. come to mind as two notable examples where the people there really didn't feel like giving me much info.
That aside this was an enjoyable watch, nice job MockRock! Get neutral tilted nerd 😎
Well I love to follow this trilogy personally is my favorite vids from your channel I watch them once in a while I still follow others in your channel but this trilogy is just get into the point for me ^^
Thanks! I did want to make sure the "this is Discord's opinion" point got raised early but really appreciate the extra context here, makes sense to me.
Also fuck you.
@@MockRockTalk why did you say to him the F word?
@@theenderkirby neutral tilt
@@MockRockTalk what's worse than getting ratioed? Getting neutral tilted 😎😎
I love how MockRock has fallen into the position of being the biggest Ridley down air defender on TH-cam by complete accident over the years.
He's made just enough videos centered around the topic of worst moves in the game that he's had to defend it as not the worst multiple times in multiple categories, and that's more than anyone else has done for it, lol.
"Accident" being the right word, I did NOT ask for this!
I main Ridley and it's not that bad. Skewer is obviously a gimmick in comparison. In my opinion, it's not that much worse than his fireballs even.
@crystalblade13 I find it only works once against low level players, or players that aren't paying attention. Skewer is actually pretty hard to react to compared to the other big moves so it can easily catch someone off guard. Most higher level players will be too unpredictable to land a Skewer consistently.
I don't even care about its utility, Ridley's DAir just looks like utter garbage. Easy bottom 5 contender for "worst attack animations."
@Angelic I mean, Ridley did use to have the infamous down throw -> Skewer mixup (PJiggles’ video was made before 8.0 when Skewer was nerfed by being coded as a grab)
I love that PJiggles is VERY clearly trying his best to not break the videos theme of going off of the character discord, and struggling.
Right like the whole kirby sections got the tone of "look i hate what im saying too"
You can definitely tell that some character discords interpreted this as “move I’m most mad at” lol
27:44 Just want to say that, yes, being unable to infinitely charge Rollout does matter. If you were getting close to a timeout situation while you're up, simply charging rollout is a decent mindgame. They stand there, ready to jump over when you let it rip, but if you just never do, it takes them a bit to realize. They have to come to you, and there's quite a few characters who can't directly hurt Jigglypuff with a projectile, meaning you can simply wait until they enter Jigglypuff's periphery and then exit out of the situation with an insanely fast burst option that tends to end with you ejected offstage where you can stall for even longer.
And yes, I did do this in tournament.
Damn
That's hysterical
😅😅
That “MockRock tries to roll a 7 on Judge” mini-compilation was so much funnier than it had any right to be.
Your switch reads your mind and purposefully turns down the percent chance for getting what you want.
“Stupid switch! You make me look bad!”
I counted all the tries it took him to get a 7. It took him 25 tries
36:10
8, 1, 6, 3, 2, 4, 4, 8, 6, 5, 1, 8, 8, 6, 1, 1, 5, 6, 1, 2, 8, 9, 1, 2, (7)
(If I need to correct, tell me)
So, the amount he rolled each number is:
1: 5 times
2: twice
3: once
4: twice
5: twice
6: 4 times
7: once
8: 5 times
9: once
"Sometimes Darwinism just needs to come into play."
Raw ass line.
I mean, same principal: Edge Guarding options that get you killed will become less used, and thus die out the same way species that are worse at surviving will die off sooner than the ones better equipped.
25:27
"that's like asking which Paul brother is less of a tool"
My new favourite MockRock line
Edit: timestamp 1:07:34
imo Jake Paul is MUCH more of a tool
I don’t get this joke
@@pvzmariosonica8fanJake Paul and Logan Paul are two TH-camrs who a lot of people think are stupid and cringey
@@TheRoboKittynot think, *are* stupid. Not only did they prey hard on their young gullible fanbase during the whole crypto fad and the scam with jake after that. They also disregard morals regularly if the potential is high enough be it the dead or living.
But after a while they did slowly drift away from that kind of content, but they have already shown that it wasn't because decency but because they found other routes that can generate more.
They are at worst showboats now.
It fits even better bc Little Mac is a boxer
1:07:30 "Forward air is a little bit weaker, but that's like asking which Paul brother is less of a tool" got me CACKLING
Rank the moves that can TRIP
VERY hard to do because it's a property that actually pops up all over the place, case in point: th-cam.com/video/6otYQPH0FiQ/w-d-xo.html
So that's gonna spiral pretty quickly into a "let's rank most moves in the game" video without some more restrictions on it lol
There are also hitboxes that only hit aerial opponents that have a trip chance too funnily enough
Kazuya's tripping kick wins. Lol
It's the Apex guy that makes no sense!
@@MockRockTalk I'm legit curious. What if you just rank the ones that are most likely to trip / trip most consistently? Just set an arbitrary (albeit on the higher end) percentage chance of a move tripping and go from there? Obviously, this is still tripping we're talking about, but no one can ever claim that there isn't a competitive meta for style points acquired due to your opponent's bad luck, lol.
Speaking of other randomly occuring events in Smash, do screen and star KOs have the same or consistent chances of happening, or is there actually a way to change those chances during a match, aside from just using certain items?
I feel like your hesitance to “retread” ideas other content creators have done shouldn’t be as much of a concern because to me, your content isn’t enjoyable because of what topics you choose. It’s enjoyable because you’re the one covering them. You’re well spoken and defend your points as objectively and reasonably as you can. Sure, anybody can argue what they think is the best or worst move for every character, but you always seem to do the most research and explain yourself the most thoroughly.
I appreciate that! I'm not always going to worry about treading on other creators' toes, particularly for very generic ideas, but it is something I try to avoid if I've got other similarly appealing ideas to work on. "Every Character's Worst Move" is a pretty specific concept and this video essentially recreates it, so if PJiggles hadn't been onboard I probably would have passed even if it would still fall under fair use. A more generic tier list, reaction video, etc. doesn't really have the same concerns for me.
@@MockRockTalk That’s fair. Whatever you choose to tackle, I’m sure I’ll be entertained regardless. :)
i disagree. it's a good stance to have and i admire MR for taking it, especially in direct light of other smash youtubers biting this move-tier-list bit exactly as he does it
at 1:36:40 or so
yes this is me, the very guy who made that footstool attack document.
you ask "why!?" and i reply; "i realized footstool attack wasnt frame 1 and you could act out of footstools frame 1, so i had to see everything that could beat the attack". that was my ulterior motive for creating the document.
and im glad you found it funny lmao
also if you want a worst move that ISNT footstool attack, its very very likely DAir. plant just has better edgeguard options and dair usmash is one of the single worst kill confirms in the game off a meteor smash cus its hard to hit, unsafe if it misses or is blocked, and hard to actually combo. it has its place as a niche landing option tho, it autocancels surprisingly quick and has 6 frames of disjoint below plant, so yay i guess.
villagers down tilt would be helpful in his kit if it would allow for saplings to be destroyed by it
That would be a cool touch
What if he also got the sapling as an item?
Adding onto Lucario, the vid was made pre dsmash buff which gave him an easier kill move out of a jab lock. It's still a terrible move and his worst non-throw though, even after buffing it to being his fastest ground move, but thought it was worth clarifying
I have watched that series at least 5 times and still cannot fathom how kirby’s dair is worse than hammer
Well i mean we don't actually think kirby dair is the worst move in his kit, it's mostly a joke within the kirby main community (which sucks ass btw)
In some ways however, hammer IS better than dair. Most people think hammer is a completely useless move, but hammer actually has a few uses. It's great at shield breaking, it kills at like 15% which is great for shield breaks and it's surprisingly good at ledgetrapping, like ACTUALLY good at ledgetrapping (though it's uses are quite niche ngl)
@@santiagobarraza28 I don’t think it 2 frames and it’s very slow. Well, I don’t play Kirby so I can’t say anything
@@El_Mince oh nonono i didn't mean that kind of ledgetrap although it does 2 frame iirc, might be wrong tho
Like i said, its uses are very niche but they do work, hammer might be slow while using it in the ground... ever though about using it in the air? Kirby can jump while using hammer and if you release hammer the exact moment you jump then hammer will actually be quite fast and even lagless. It's even better when you remember that aerial hammer has a double swing, which is great for: shield breaking on platforms, catching jump from ledge, catching attack get up (with the double swing), catching neutral get up (again, with the double swing) and the lagless aspect of it can be useful for doing a quick back air or ftilt or even downsmash if they roll, it does require you to get the right timing though
@@santiagobarraza28 Huh. Thanks for the info
@@santiagobarraza28 it does 2-frame
55:15 There is no move that gives „extra“ rage but there is one move that isn’t Lucarios that has an aura mechanic. It’s Mii Brawlers Side Special Onslaught just wanted to point that out
That move's "extra rage" also has a recharge. If you use it once, you have to wait about 8 seconds for the move to get the extra rage multiplier back, otherwise it just scales with normal rage (you can tell when it comes back by a glow in the Mii's foot). This was obviously a necessary balance mechanic and Onslaught would've been incredibly broken and meta defining without it.
@@supernutz1262 i assume you're being sarcastic lmao
@@iknowwhereyoulive618 Yeah, I have no idea why they implemented that mechanic lol
As an onslaught obsessed fanatic myself, other random thing is that the launcher has fixed weight set to true, which force sets all characters weight to 100 for kb calcs, and they are only effected by normal hitstun gravity(around 1.8) for about 10 frames before going back to their default gravities. Mythra's nspecial had this before being patched. This means onslaught kills ganon earlier than pichu
Yo thx for all the likes lol
PJiggles: "Yeah it's his worst move. It's active frame 1, full body intangibility, positive on block, jump cancellable, and covers half the stage in a hitbox that kills at 25%; so yeah, it's not bad, but definitely his worst."
That’s just Steve.
"Remember, not worst, but least useful"
@@spiceitnow5317 toolless jab/fair/bair/utilt/dash
Still not as good as Brawl MetaKnight.
It’s kinda a side effect of asking a bunch of character discords. Because you remember the 20 times you got punished for using a down air that you’ve used 1000 times total more than the 0 times you were hit out of a side special you used 0 times total.
3:31 trust me it’s accurate when playing Samus I try my best to avoid the homing missle because of how weak and slow it is compared to super missle
Oh yeah, if Homing Missile counts under the criteria then it's 100% the pick, no argument here!
Ya
I agree with Mac's aerials, Nair is better then Dair in general but I do think Dair is better in the context of his kit purely due to the recovery utility (Little Mac going under Smashville is crazy)
I disagree for Pyra, though, Flame Nova makes good shield pressure and has good edgeguarding utility. Up tilt is a common pick, though players like Sparg0 use it to cover the opponent's ledge options, which is a legitimately really good use case. Down tilt provides some combos and is a solid move otherwise. I think down smash would be Pyra's worst move, you rarely see it used as it never tends to get much done when it is pulled out.
Pyra wasn't a super solidified choice (actually probably the one I feel least strongly about for any of the newcomers), I could see a case for down smash as well
Pyra's up-tilt is a pretty good kill move (kills earlier then up air I believe) that has huge range. There's a reason why Nairo wants Cosmos to use up-tilt more often.
Flame nova sort of has the same use as down-smash as well, and you can use it in the air
@@Snyper077 and it’s completely and utterly unpunishable when charged
Yeah, Flame Nova is basically a better Pyra Down Smash
Speaking as a Smash 4 Pac-Main, who's at least messed around with him in Ultimate, you absolutely nailed it with his utilt vs dtilt. dtilt isn't a great move by any means, but it's very usable and is actually a pretty good poke. Meanwhile IMO, the only reason Pac utilt isn't the worst in the game is because it loses to Ganondorf. It's straight up one of the worst combo starters in the game.
I play a lot of pac-man and yeah.. his utilt is only an occasional anti-air but he has better moves that do the same thing. It kinda combos into up-smash but thats still assuming you land it
I’d say as a Pac-Main, both are actually pretty good! Utilt gets way too much ire from people who don’t know about it’s use, it’s really good out of Galaxian from ledge or Bell at low percents, and it combos very very well, so I’d say it’s average and very underrated. It also is very disjointed and lagless so it's a great platform pressure tool, compared to worse Utilts like Rosa or Ivy or Ganon. Dtilt is also a great safe poke so it's not in contention. I’d say his worst move is Usmash since it’s way too overcommittal unlike his tilts and it doesn’t work half the time, especially during Bell, and you’re way better off doing Fsmash, Bair, or Side B, since they kill around the same percent. It’s also outclassed OOS by Fair Nair Dair and Fruits, and for juggling you’re better off using Utilt or catching landings with Fruits or dash attack since Pac Usmash is thin. Not bad at all, all of Pac's moves are good, it's just Usmash has way less going for it and is very inconsistent.
Tldr: All of Pacs moves are good and Usmash is outclassed in every way while Utilt is very underrated
Its such a lame move, i wish he kept his Smash 4 uptilt.
His up tilt can actually be a fantastic combo extender
to play devils advocate: uptilt isn't an actual move, and thus is ineligible
Can I add a side note and say that fox laser is the best move to remove staling from other moves
Hammer is underrated sure, but that should never be a valid excuse of why it’s not Kirby’s worst move
Fitting how Mega Man's worst move is considered one of his worst moves in his home series and has a lot of similar issues, too! Both are inconsistent, have VERY niche uses, have you at risk of getting hit easily, and there are way better moves/weapons in his arsenal that he can use.
As a side note, Kazuya's worst move, to me, is Crouch Spin Kick, A.K.A., Crouching Down Back Tilt. It doesn't combo, it doesn't kill, and it's got terrible range. The only real "use" for it is for setting up tech situations, but you have to commit more than it's actually worth to execute the move in the first place since if you do Down Back Tilt too soon, you'll get Stature Smash, which is a better move overall, but not something you wanna just throw out. Crouch Spin Kick requires too much commitment that could've been used for something better like an EWGF, a Flash Punch Combo, some hits from 10 Hit Combo as a mix-up, a grab or Gates of Hell throw, Demon God Fist, Devil Fist, and PLENTY more options that vary in their usefulness that are all still superior to Crouch Spin Kick.
Never played any Mega Man but that’s very interesting
For lucas, dash attack has 37 faf and lingers from frame 13-17. It has top ten knockback for a dash attack and can be as safe as -8 on shield if the sweetspot is spaced. It's like a grounded ftilt that moves him forward at the cost of being slower. It's a great ftilt complement when people have been conditioned by ftilt's threat range. Frame 13 is still unreactable and demands respect.
Pk freeze is far from his worst move as well. With middling charge it's -9 to -12 on oos options and +2 to -2 on shield drop. It travels faster horizontally than yoshi does in the air. Parrying it is extremely risky because it only has a 5 frame grace period before detonation once the special button is released & once lucas releases the special button from freeze's charge, it will detonate, even if he's hit a frame later. Freeze is very safe during a character's landing. Or if you time it properly to a character grabbing the ledge because it forces a set option like normal getup. Freeze also only has 23 frames of endlag, making it extremely hard to punish if lucas is properly spaced.
His worst move imo is jab. Dtilt outclasses it mostly everywhere else except as a jab locking option.
"Forward air's a little bit weaker, but that's like asking which of the Paul brothers is less of a tool."
Finally. Irrefutable evidence that MockRock can do comedy.
they buffed the hell out of IC's dash attack after this video, it is now an insane combo tool and a huge part of IC's combo and advantage state
Yea I was confused by that, Big D used it a lot in his tournament run.
I will say their worst move now is their down air is feel so floaty for a stallen fall that is just too easy to punish
@@theenderkirby or down smash. i actually use down air way more often because it combos into fair at low percents (desynced) and it's a part of the dthrow (footstool dair) [fsmash] true combo that is extremely useful and kills early
@@nastyfrogproductions fair enough ICs are my in my top 5 least used character to begin with and from my pretty minimal expriience from them now I can get your point with no problem thanks ^^
@@theenderkirby 👍👍👍
Also I feel like the metric of just calling out the “worst move” in a character doesn’t put it into perspective enough because some of these selections feel like the mains were competing the move with other character moves instead of within itself.
I rather a more accurate question would be something hypothetical like “If a character is forced to have a move from them taken away yet you’re allowed to choose. Which one would it be?” Because it kind of puts them closer to know what they’re supposed to mean when they refer to a character’s worst move.
Plus I just think it brings them more to the mentality of which move is worth sacrificing that reduces the least amount of a character’s viability…
…or in Yoshi’s case, worth sacrificing to increase a character’s viability
@@Cyprimm Late again, but that’s actually a good point. A character’s “worst move” should just be about which move is bad within the *actual* character like is it to situational or is it basically downright unusable instead of having it compete with other moves because that’s just unfair from a standpoint.
if we isolated discussion strictly within the characters kit, almost every up b would be off the table because you would never want to lose your recovery move. that makes it impossible to discuss chrom's up b even though it's his biggest weakness as a character. it's one of the last moves you would want to remove from the kit, but at the same time it's really the only thing in his kit that's preventing him from being an amazing character.
i feel like the question "which move would you most want to replace with the majority of other moves in that slot?" feels appropriate to me. it avoids the down smash problem from pjiggles video; you're going to see most characters spamming their nair or fair way more often than their down smash because aerial approaches are just a much larger part of smash than punishing a wide horizontal space around you. the general design of down smashes are just made to solve a relatively specific problem. having a situational down smash is just not as big of a deal as having a situational nair.
we don't have to be giving every character gnw up b or shulk monado arts. move slots generally are dedicated to specific functions, such as up bs being recoveries, or ftilts being fast pokes, and if you can generally see a plethora of options that would be more useful than the move a character actually has, it's probably a sign that the move is a pretty large weakness in that context of their kit.
@@russellhassan7773 well that has a gigantic issue too. Some moves are way more important than others. If a character had an up throw that did healed their opponent and did 100 self damage, and a kinda bad nair, theyd choose nair for a replacement because its just more important, even if the up throw is hilariously bad.
Maybe, but if it wasn't being replaced in this hypothetical than removing an important move like an recovery even if it was really bad would not be great
I gotta say, I completely disagree with you on Pichu. I think without a doubt skullbash is the worst move on him. It’s only for recovery, which then up B is still better for recovery. And for hitting shield? Like PJiggles said, you can easily hit Pichu out of it or, ya know, jump out of the way, and if Pichu fully charges it, he just dies. So he almost never wants to fully charge it unless a shield break.
Upb doesn't have an hitbox and is easier to 2f so it's not a bad use at all
But yeah it's prob his worst anyways his kit is busted lol
Honestly, as a bowser main, I’m surprised he didn’t even mention dash attack as one of bowsers worst move contenders. Even though it’s somewhat fast, it does poor damage (although 14% isn’t that bad) but all of bowsers moves are stronger and do more damage than that, it doesn’t kill, doesn’t combo, literally the only thing I can see it being used for is just a get off me tool or as a follow up from down tilt
Sheik mains watching bowser mains complain about a move only doing 14:
Yeah most of the time as Bowser you’d rather Pivot Ftilt, Pivot Utilt, Side B, or approach from the air. Dtilt at least kills pretty well and is a fine enough move that is overshadowed while Dash attack is a legitimately bad move that really does nothing for Bowser and gets you punished for using it.
I remembered one time I had a Sudden Death match with Bowser and I somehow lived at 300% from his dash attack. Yeah, his dash attack is that bad.
Down tilt is completely outclassed by side tilt while dash attack is still his best horizontal burst/catch landing move while remaining grounded
@@YounesLayachi like I said, even though it’s fast, bowser has up smash to catch landings which also has invincibility frames, and bowser has dash cancel f tilt. F tilt may be slower, but it has tough guy frames and it has more shield pressure. Besides, down tilt at least has a use in two framing even if it’s outclassed by f tilt in almost every way. Dash attack literally gets outshined by all of his moves
55:05 Moves with high base knockback scale harder with rage, because percent is only a multiplier on knockback growth, while rage is a multiplier on both base knockback and knockback growth. And Sonic's up smash has an unusually high amount of base knockback.
My guess is that the players with the odd opinions are frustrated with the mediocre moves that they need to use, leading them to rank them below the truly useless moves because they never use them and thus haven't built up any negative feelings towards them
Nah, My girlfriend just recently picked up Smash Bros and instantly loved Kirby...Unfortunately she didnt realise that there are more buttons and combos than just "B" so Hammer spam is the way to go and its her fave move....she doesnt even know you can walk, turn or charge it up...thats just how I picture all Kirby Mains.
@@scotttimbrell8632hey, don’t lump me in with her and the kids
Kirby Main here! Ya it’s definitely not dair 😂. That was my reaction too when I first saw that but then found out it’s just a joke within the community. It’s easily hammer and it’s not even close. Dair simply invalidates some recoveries
Yeah dair is a million times better than hammer flip or stone
Something to note with Joker's jab, at high percents, jab 2 sometimes pushes the opponent away instead of pulling in and it results in jab 3 whiffing and makes it super unsafe, so much so that most characters can punish you with a smash attack. Of course it doesn't always happen since it is also based on reaction but you can also deliberately sdi out of it then punish accordingly so it kinda sucks
I should mention that ice climbers dash attack was buffed after Pjiggle’s video, so it might not be the worst move anymore
Big videos on the mechanics and viability of certain fighters/moves are always my favorites. It's a damn shame they're not passed around as often because they really do an amazing job at explaining the reasoning behind what makes something a bad move and you do an incredible amount of work to show this off from every angle! Thanks for the video! I loved it as always!
Personally I remember when that video came out, another youtuber named Juggleboy made an analysis of kirby's down air after the discourse of that video. They make some really good points about how its not his worst move, but it definitely isnt his best either. I've link the video here in case anyone wants to view it.
th-cam.com/video/KWA16G1KM5U/w-d-xo.html
He also made a video on Hammer Flip.
The problem with using character discords I imagine is that when you very loyally play a character and follow their community, you tend to overly value their gimmick because gimmicks are usually fun if you can get them, and you probably have tons of experience playing against all kinds of players so you’ve probably hit the gimmick a few times even if it’s not good. Ridley mainly brought this to mind.
Honestly even with this knowledge, I would still absolutely say his Dair is worse than skewer. If not then as bad as skewer.
Dair's only advantages, its start up at 11 frames and how it kills at very high percents, are not very good.
11 frames is not very fast in a game where quick aerials are universally common, and its kill power is nothing to write home about.
Ridley's dair does have a unique quality of being the strongest spike of all down airs which is a unique title. But its far too unwieldy to use consistently as a spiking tool and this is more of fun trivia than an upside to me.
and its downsides of
-no intangibility
-incredibly easy to challenge in the air
-no horizontal hitbox
-no shockwave
-GROSS 32 frames of landing lag
Its unsalvageable. Skewer's startup is more generous than the landing lag of dair.
@@Krona-fb4dn Skewer is a tiny 30 frame move bruh, you can at least use down air to try to trade when being juggled while skewer has no practical application at all.
@@thehuman2cs715 I can tell you don't play Ridley.
Skewer is 30 frames, after that its actually done, *Dair has 32 frames of landing lag*, at least when used optimally, skewer is a good distance away. Dair is just one stagnant hitbox that is extremely easy to punish and see coming.
Skewer works great with tech chases which ridley DOES get plenty of opportunity to go for with for dthrow and ftilt and dtilt.
@@Krona-fb4dn bruh Ridley is my secondary, I can tell you I use down air a fair bit but don't think I've ever seriously used Skewer. Sure down air isn't good but at anything below top level an 11 frame down air is still plenty fast enough for what it needs to do.
@@thehuman2cs715 32 frames of endlag for 11% is not gonna be worth it. Also you should never use dair.
Getting a tech chase with skewer is actually a thing you can do and reasonably do as Ridley.
As a fellow Dark Pit player, I feel like forward tilt is DP’s worst move by far because of how it just gets out-classed in pretty much every field by forward smash.
True bro. Pits f tilt is garbage.
It still has respectable range, though. And you can catch your opponent off guard. Not to mention it kills. I guess forward smash is better but I feel like up tilt is his worst move. Down tilt already combos and up smash is the better pressure move on platforms
@@julezzz_08 also true. Up tilt and f tilt are both very weak moves for pit.
I like using ftilt at ledge as its fast enough to use twice and outranges rolls. And if they jump? Well you're pit, they just entered disadvantage.
@@julezzz_08 It's tipper dependant, so it either puts opponents back in offstage or kills. UTilt can actually pick up both Jumps and neutral getups, trades with getup attacks and is decently safe to whiff. FTilt doesn't do anything if it whiffs outside of conditioning a jump, since whiffing it puts Pit in a million years of endlag.
Idk if its been mentioned, but as someone in the miicords, gale stab was really only the worst move cause it didnt grab ledge when you hit someone. Which meant free ledge trapping by standing at ledge and spotdodging. It got shadow fixed in patch 12.0.0, so its not the worst anymore.
What would be the worst now?
What IS the worst now?
I think the worst now is that fire sword attack
Even pre patch gale stab was better than blurring blade
1:11:27
The reason you now see more Gale Stab users than before is because the issue shown at the above timestamp was patched in one of the last few updates (Update 12.0; after PJiggles video), so now it CAN grab ledges after hitting an opponent in the air. That small issue is singlehandedly why it was considered worse than even Blurring Blade at the time.
MR’s reaction to Kirby is EXACTLY what mine was watching PJ’s video. That Kirby discord is FOUL.
Charizard's up tilt makes me upset because his wings used to be intangible in Smash 4 - I remember some people who did actually complain about Mewtwo not having a tail hurtbox in the Smash 4 days, but LITERALLY NOBODY was asking for Charizard's wings to get the same treatment
I am now officially referring to a pummel as “Neutral Throw” and dash attack as “Dash Tilt”
Something not mentioned about inklings up-tilt is that it got a significant buff. Before the buff it only functioned on tall and large characters meaning it just couldn’t hit a character like pikachu if they weren’t directly above you. The buff fixed the hit box to follow inklings feet through the whole arc so it can actually reliably hit now.
As someone who plays Bowser Jr. from time to time, his down smash is actually really fast start up surprisingly, (I do think it got buffed between the video and now) I do see nuetral special as his worst move, even if it's not a bad move.
Wii fit fair is actually quite important for her gameplan nowadays, it's by far her safest aerial (autocanceling super early and being very safe on shield), and she gets a lot out of both the front hit - which combos into itself at low percents and kills at high percents - and the back hit, which jablocks and true combos into fstrong/bair for early kills if you land with it
Kirby discord are probably newer players who only fight there 5 year old siblings who have no idea what a shield is.
8:01 I heard alpharad talk about this as one of my first smash videos I ever saw
the threat of a move can be so much more impactful than the move it self
Really good thing to recognise
Fox laser also unstales his other moves, which is really helpful for a character who is going to enter repeated bair ledgetrap scenarios or require multiple upsmashes to finish a stock
Yeah, with corrin it's definitely counter. It has some niche use as a counter-juggling option but Corrin already has down air for that which does lots of damage, hits far below, and either sets up for a tech chase when you hit or autocancels allowing you to be safe. Plus you can use back air to mix up aerial drift and escape from juggles that way too. You could also use it while you're the one juggling to catch landing aerials or stall-and-falls, but again why not just outrange with up air. And if you're reading a stall-and-fall down air with that much commitment, why not just move out of the way and hit a tipper forward smash for a free early kill. It's only really usable for cheese, and even then not nearly as good as sm4sh pre-nerf where it was so ridiculously strong it could kill at 0. Honestly I wish that was still a thing, making the move insanely strong gives it at least some viability for hard reads and if you die at 0 to it that's kind of your fault. Why are you using fully charged forward smash or warlock punch in neutral.
I'm not gonna pretend to be actually good, but I feel up smash is worse. It's so thin. I find counter gets me out of things or helps anti air recoveries
@@mor3gan285 Up smash is one of corrin's worse moves but I don't think it's THE worst. It has at least a few things going for it. (It consistently tippers on platforms which similar up smashes like marth's don't, and it also has corrin duck really low in the animation so you can hurtbox shift below lots of aerial attacks.) It's definitely one of the less useful moves though. I only use it at kill percents for platform tech chases.
Corrin's worst move is dash attack imo. It's slow and very punishable.
Otherwise her grab or her counter are the other contenders. They suck too.
@@RandomNirvanaSXE Dash attack can at least give you combos at low percents. And the fact its so long lasting makes it decent for catching landings. It could honestly be way better though.
Thing with counter is that you dont have to use it but you can, and having one is always nice as a mixup even tho corrins is probably the worst bc it sends up. Up smash has at least the tipper that you can use for tech chases on platforms or (too risky) anti airs, down smash covers multiple options for aerial drift (which probably could be covered by reactional back air better) or ledge getup/tech coverage. Dash attack is really just a fast burst option that ranges further than back air on the ground (is far less safe though). My personal worst would be Jab, being as fast as down tilt (both frame 5) and you just get more out of hitting a down tilt than a Jab + its hitbox isnt reliable for Jab-locks
yeah Sora’s dair is a mixed bag, its kind of weird that it launches straight up but the no end lag when your high up enough is nice. If you hit someone near the ceiling it can kill surprising early with how fast it moves and its angle. SD dairs are just the worst kind to have in general
I was honestly surprised it was considered his worst, but it makes sense when Sora's whole kit is pretty rock solid. Dair is honestly super useful in any situation where your enemy is below you (which, as "Sword Puff" Sora, is not infrequently), and they either don't have enough time to react or don't have anything that can beat it out. In my experience I almost feel like I get more kills off the top with it instead of Up-B. lol
@@ExaltedUriel Sora Dair is sometimes useful when your opponent is below you.
Slot machine the down air.
I like how you and PJiggles value different things. It makes the video more interesting, seeing it from a different POV. For example you care more about covering both sides with a d-smash, while PJiggle focuses on power and two frame potential. You care more about frame data, but PJiggle cares more about range.
I've recently been picking up the Icies and this has actually changed. I don't know the current one but now dash attack combos into up airs which does a lot. Something between 30-60.
They buffed the move in a patch, the hitbox got bigger so it actually connects properly when nana is there too. And you play icies, you know that's a big deal if you've landed a single up tilt up air
Yeah and there are even many decently easy D-sync confirms into it
Sheik's Uptilt is actually quite a bit more useful, her worst move is definitely her rapid jab.
Uptilt is really good for sheild pressure because, if spaced, cannot be sheild grabbed, pretty safe, and messes with your opponents tempo. It's also amazing for ledgetrapping, able to catch people jumping from ledge, hanging on ledge, and a lot of other options, while being able to combo into bair and bouncing fish between like 30-80 percent.
At that's not mentioning the uptilt jablocks on platforms, and the other combo routes it opens up for her.
1:34:53 I’d argue that Samus’ Homing/Super Missiles count as separate moves while Incineroar’s Alolan Whip variants don’t.
For Samus you decide which version to use when you first fire it out, meaning that you’re locked into either one from the moment you use the move. For Incineroar, you decide which version to use after you’ve already input the move and grabbed the opponent, so you can choose between the two on the fly.
It’s the same reason Bowser’s command grab is the same move whether you decide to launch forwards, backwards or straight down with it.
(Can’t edit on mobile) Not sure how I’d list Hero’s Command Menu under these criteria, there are definitely arguments both ways but I’d probably say they’re the same move since in a lot of (probably most) cases you just have to use the move and then play the hand you’re dealt, in the same way as say Judge or Green Missile.
Charizard's wings were intangible during his Up Tilt in Smash 4, but they removed the intangibility in Ultimate. The tip was recycled from Smash 4.
Hey so, for explanation why Fair on Wii Fit is actually really good is due to the fact that it covers people shielding on ledge super well along with side B, even breaking shields if you’re in Deep Breathing. The ledge is one of Wii Fit’s homes as she really benefits from being there due to Header sliding across the ground.
So uh, there’s a small explanation, along with the fact that RaR Fair’s back hit stomp the opponent which consistently connects into FSmash for a kill.
You're right about Sephiroth's giga flare rarely connecting, but that doesn't mean it's not doing its job. It's mainly useful for ledge pressure, meaning that it can both kill the opponent on its own _and_ set them up to be killed by a different move. So the flare itself not hitting the opponent doesn't always mean the opponent isn't getting hit.
being able to b-reverse and cancel it instantly into any attack is also an extremely effective conditioning tool and mindgame
I would still probably say that Flare is runner-up for worst move. It has uses, mainly in ledge pressure and shield break punishing, which Sephiroth is pretty damn good at, but the startup is horrendous and the consistent timing on Gigaflare means it's never gonna actually hit at high levels. It's a mindgame and not much else, certainly a use but not a fantastic one. Not to mention that standard Flare is _still_ borderline useless, even casually. Megaflare's the best of the three but still not great.
As a Sephiroth main, I would personally say his worst move is *Forward Smash* instead. It's not bad on its own, but it's pretty heavily outclassed. Forward Tilt is way faster, way safer, has almost as much range, and it still kills reasonably early. Even if you factor in the Winged form's armor, Down Smash is _also_ faster and safer, has similar range, kills off the top, two-frames from a stupidly safe distance, and *obliterates* shield.
@@knowfake It doesn't cancel instantly, it needs to reach mega flare charge first
@@juniperrodley9843 incorrect, you can cancel it during first charge too
@@knowfake Yeah, seems I'd been given incorrect information about it
ICs dash attack was buffed in the last patch and no joke it's one of their best moves now, and honestly one of the best dash attacks in the game period
I think their worst move now is ftilt but even then it still has uses
Losing a bit of startup really made that big of a difference? Ice Climbers are definitely one of my biggest blind spots, surprised to hear that
@@MockRockTalk it combos into uairs for like 60 super easy damage, and with the buffs it combos out of landing aerials at low percents (in addition to being a pretty good burst option anyway)
ICs in general are seriously misunderstood but yeah it's a really good combo starter and extender, in situations where they wouldn't be able to get anything else
As a longtime Duck Hunt player, you were completely right in your assessment. Dash attack does come in handy for occasional can combos, but your rebuttal to the other video really sealed the deal for me. Down air is an amazing move on Duck Hunt, and there are a good few confirms for it. It’s an essential part of any serious Duck Hunt main’s gameplay.
Dash attack was buffed for ICs after the initial video was released. It’s now one of their best moves since it now connects into itself reliably, combos into up-air, and kill confirms into up-b which funny enough was also buffed in the same patch so the worst move is probably d-air or d-smash for ICs
36:48
Oh my god, thank you for putting the discord logo on the screen here. I can't even begin to quantify how many times I hear a discord notification only to realize that it was from the video I'm watching and not Discord itself.
I feel like the argument that "if you can do in in training mode, you can do it in battle" doesn't quite work out. if it did, ice climbers would be literally unbeatable
For closer ranged characters they ARE close to unbeatable
"That's why I sometimes put entries in the thumbnails, sometimes I don't, to keep you on your toes on whether I spoiled you or not" I picked up on that and I think it really should be standard to do, I feel like most people only do either one of the other.
In general I love your philosophy when it comes to content creation, e.g. detailed criteria disclosure at the start of videos, allowing exceptions but disclaiming them, too, thumbnail game, informative editing etc. you're one of the highest production value channels I know of and you always bring up interesting points of discussion even in the more casual videos.
Been a long time lurker and I thought I'd just vent some praise ;p you've come so far as a TH-cam creator, keep up the good work
If we can consider (Dark)Samus' homing and super missiles as separate moves then I would argue the same for Sephiroth's 3 different tiers of his neutral special, so I would personally say that Gigaflare specifically is his worst move, no matter how much I may love it. It's just like Falcon Punch in the regard that it's not a good move because of how slow it is, but holy crap is it satisfying when you connect with it.
Sephiroth's neutral-b is definitely not his worst move, since just charging it forces a reaction out of someone on ledge which you can then cancel and react accordingly. That's not even getting into the b-reverse stuff when combined with wing that makes him really hard to track down.
I agree, it's scary and that's all it has to be, and even uncharged Flare is slow but can be useful for zoning. I'd say his worst move is either his jab or his down air. His jab is his fastest move but doesn't do great damage and isn't a good combo starter even at low percents, so it's only really useful for the normal jab fare like tech chases or a "get off me" at close range. And his down air has a pretty generous meteor hitbox on startup and you can do some alright cheesing through platforms and on the edge of FD/Battlefield-type stages, but the actual sword's hitbox is super narrow, it's punishable, and unless your opponent really bungles their recovery you're not gonna hit that meteor safely and it's a stall-and-fall so doing it offstage is basically a guaranteed SD. It has its applications but the downsides heavily outweigh the benefits.
@@ExaltedUriel Seph's down air is an amazing spike due to the long hitbox, when used at ledge it just destroys low recoveries
@@ExaltedUriel dair actually does have some decent use as a footstool punish out of shield since aside from nair seph’s out of shield is pretty awful, it’s still not great but for a stall and fall it isn’t the worst. Jab is absolutely his worst move over flare though, I don’t get how Mock thinks such a great conditioning tool is his worst especially when jab does next to nothing aside the bare minimum but that’s just me
Well whats worse
@@leaffinite2001 I would probably say fair because of the small hit box and the fact that rotated up b does its job a lot better
As a former Kirby main, I am genuinely so shocked. I know Juggleboy said something along the lines of like “dair is to mid-level play what stone is to casual play,” but it’s not unusable at a competitive level. I’m not sure how those Discord Kirby mains play, but they’re either not properly utilizing one of Kirby’s better offstage tools, or throwing out Hammer way more than they should to believe that Hammer is better than dair. I legit want to play a few rounds with them out of sheer curiosity.
I love Corrin Down-Smash.
Backside sweet-spot is deadly, and both sides send the opponent at a really low angle for subsequent RAR-Bair edgeguards. Also, if you play Smash Stick, you can dash-pivot into the stronger back-side.
In what world is it worse than Up-Smash or Counter?
That said, the Kirby mains are genuinely trolling.
I think one thing that's important to remember with ike is that his up smash kinda fills the same role as his down smash in terms of covering both sides of him, but it kills more consistently than his down smash, and has lower end lag (I think)
Pound existing is another massive reason why Rollout can't even be brought up as a recovery move. If you want to mix it up with your 5 jumps and air dodge, Pound gives you so many more options, especially because it can stall for a long ass time
Im still a bit confused about pjiggle’s idea for incineroar’s alolan whip. Shouldn’t terry’s jab 3 also count as jab as a whole, considering you can choose whether or not to use it? Also, just like you can misinput alolan whip, you can misinput terry’s jab 3. If so, terry’s jab (jab 1 and 2) would be one of terry’s most useful moves in his kit.
Samus homing missile, ryu-ken jab 3, sheik multi-jab, etc would all be off the table
He didn't really have much of a choice considering the character discords chose each character's worst move though
Personally I love having Simons whip dangle, just because even tho he has an awful playstyle in Smash, it's pretty much a one-to-one representation of the Castlevania games, and even tho it's badly programmed, it's pretty damn funny if you played Super Castlevania as much as I did
As a Richter Main, whip dangle should've had that non-moving lingering hitbox from SC4
For Olimar, I'd definitely say forward tilt. The only move that's really in competition is dash attack. Jab is his quickest move if your opponent manages to get in your face, down tilt and up tilt can maybe combo, and you actually see nair used quite a ton as an option off of ledge for it's safety. Even used as a landing option fairly commonly. Nair is very underrated imo, really solid move, just looks much worse when you compare it to the rest of Olimar's kit
i would definitely like to see a retrospective of the "every character's worst change in ultimate" at some point, i really liked the best change counterpart
What's funny about Metal Slash in the main Dragon Quest Series is that the move's purpose is to deal extra damage to Metal Slimes. Metal Slimes have Low health, but have such High defense that Most attacks only deal 1 Damage unless you crit (since crits in RPGs usually Ignore defense), and they dodge attacks pretty often too. Problem is, Metal Slash in DQ only SOMETIMES does 1 extra Damage to Metal Slimes. The skill becomes outclassed once you get Moves like Hatchet Man or Thunder Thrust (All or nothing Crit Moves) for Metal Slime Hunting. I think the Only other Enemy types Metal Slash does increase Damage to is Living Armor enemies and the Hunter Mech/Killing Machine series of enemies, and they usually have other weaknesses anyways.
But yeah, Kaclang isn't any better either since it Renders the Party Member you use it on unable to move, and while that character IS invincible for a few turns, you also can't buff or Heal them.
Fun fact: You can use uncharged shadow sneak while in shield, but if you charge it your shield will be dropped.
The issue with Lucas’ jab is mostly just that it’s almost completely outclassed by Dtilt, which is frame 3, has more range, usually is much more rewarding, is more consistent, and is -6 on shield. Jab isn’t a bad move in a vacuum, Lucas just has almost nothing to do with it outside of jab locks.
Up smash is probably his worst move in a vacuum; frame 28, extremely laggy, and not rewarding enough to justify the fact that it’s 2 frames away from being Falcon punchable out of shield. It does have invincibility on startup, which gives it a semblance of a niche, but overall it’s still just too slow for the risk of trying to i-frame through something to be worth it.
Dash attack and PK Freeze are genuinely quite good moves; dash attack is very underrated, as it’s good at some very weird things for a dash attack, like being disjointed, safe on shield (-12 to -8 with good pushback), killing, and sort of being an antiair, while it’s bad at filling the roles a traditional dash attack does due to its speed and low burst range. Its attributes make it a pretty decent safe poke when spaced, as well as a strangely good ledgetrapping tool thanks to how wide the hitbox is, how it lingers for a decent while, and how much horizontal knockback it has.
PK Freeze’s niche comes from how lagless it is on release. Lucas won’t be actually hitting people with Freeze too often, but just the threat of it is very often enough to force opponents to recover low or burn resources. Thanks to only having around 25 frames of lag on release, low recoveries and forced options (such as airdodges or jumps) are very often punishable.
Tl;dr Freeze and dash attack are pretty good, jab is just outclassed by Dtilt, up smash is -54 on shield with 28 frames of startup and takes over a second and a half to complete
Fun fact: every usmash is jump cancellable within the first 3 frames. Its useless for every character except lucas, who gains full body intangibility frame 1 to idfk i dont play lucas. You may think im cappin here but check it out for yourself.
@@HippityhoppityGnW yeah, I’m aware of that; it’s still practically useless since it’s only a single frame (or two) of invincibility which is just too precise to make use of most of the time. It’s generally outclassed by parrying, though it theoretically could be useful for punishing certain multihits OoS. It’s extremely difficult though and I doubt anyone will actually make good use of it during ultimate’s lifespan lol
@@dunsparce3883 if a lucas player were to get consistent at that it would be a pretty good mixup or combo breaker. As is its p shit
@@HippityhoppityGnW Honestly, it wouldn't even be that good as a mixup or combo breaker; in most situations in which you'd want to go for it as a mixup, parry or raw up smash is functional and _significantly_ more lenient, and as a combo breaker, most combos don't leave the target grounded, and shield is already a frame 1 combo breaker on the ground (aside from the fact that it can be grabbed).
Attack cancel up smash (which I'll refer to as ACUS from now on) is, in my opinion, theoretically useful only against specific multihits on shield that do parry lock, but do not shield lock, and that are too safe to be punished using a normal OoS option or a raw up smash with invincibility. (By the way, the opponent hitting up smash's invincibility causes them, but not Lucas, to undergo hitlag, which makes them more minus on ACUS than they would be on shield, which is why an ACUS Fair could likely punish something that would normally be, say, -5 on shield.) If the multihit doesn't parry lock, you'd rather just go for the parry since it's easier, and if it's just punishable by a normal OoS option, you'd rather just go for that since it's also easier.
The reason I feel like it's only useful on multihits is that the invincibility just does not last long enough to be useful for calling out most buttons that people will be using in neutral. There's just no way that you'd be able to call out someone's aerial down to the 60th or 30th of a second, especially when they themselves can't even consistently input it that precisely. Therefore, it's only potentially useful against moves that can be reacted to. Moves that are reactable on startup are almost universally already unsafe enough that they can just be punished directly out of shield, or out of parry, or on whiff, so there's no need for the extra frames provided by ACUS. The exceptions to this are multihits on shield, and projectiles. Projectiles do not cause the user to undergo hitlag if they hit an invincible opponent, so ACUS' niche of causing the opponent to undergo hitlag is gone versus them. This leaves only multihits on shield as attacks that could, theoretically, be punished by ACUS to any degree of consistency.
Pikachu Nair is an example of something it could be useful on; it does parry lock, so Lucas can't just parry the final hit and punish with a tilt or something, but it doesn't shield lock, so Lucas is able to up smash between the hits, and it's only -7 on shield, so Lucas cannot normally punish it as his fastest standard OoS option is frame 10. In theory, Lucas could ACUS between the 3rd and 4th hits of Pikachu's Nair, and punish him with an aerial, likely Nair or Dair, since those are the least likely to be low-profiled.
There are a few issues with this, though; one is that it's still extremely difficult, and the timing is unique for every single multihit it's applicable on. It's just not really worth it to practice this fully unique timing for every move it could theoretically be used against, especially when it's only helping you deal slightly better with one specific move in one specific matchup each time you practice it.
This also doesn't even take into consideration that Lucas doesn't want to be shielding much at all in several matchups; many characters have dangerous grab followups, or they have other tools that can be used for shield pressure, especially considering that Lucas' most relevant OoS options are pretty slow at frame 10 and frame 12 (being Nair and Fair). Why would a Lucas player bother with ACUS OoS vs Pikachu's Nair when shielding leaves them extremely vulnerable to Pika's combo routes off of down throw, or to up throw>thunder, especially when Lucas has other tools for dealing with Pika's Nair and grab at the same time like Ftilt, Fair, Zair, and potentially even things like dash attack, PK Fire, or pivot grab?
Point is, finding specific use cases for ACUS is already pretty hard, the timing is extremely difficult even in use cases that are tailor-made to favor it, and in practice, you usually don't even want to be going for it, since Lucas doesn't like shielding much in the first place.
Samus Jab 1 is one of the coolest Jabs in the Game, because of its large mixup potential(even on shield), good range and fast startup
Honestly, I always thought Jab was Sephiroth's worst move. I know you talked about how you found it really difficult to see Flare variants hit someone, but it seems like the conditioning that would come with forcing people to avoid it would make it useful.
I agree with the Discord on Ike. DSmash doesn't effectively cover both sides because it's so slow. The opponent can roll through and get their shield up before the back hit. If I'm anticipating a roll I'll probably just do turnaround FTilt or something. I'd rather have FSmash for hard reads - in fact, FSmash works for roll reads.
So would you say that Donkey Kong's down smash is his worst move because we actually didn't hear your opinion on which of his moves is his worst.
Yeah, that might've been worth leaving in in retrospect, I agree with the video
I think I see why your choices differ so much, PJiggles' list seems to be based more on which move a character would be least affected by losing, while yours seems to be more about which move a character would BENEFIT most from REPLACING, so down smashes in particular kind of inherently have a disadvantage in his list
Just something I noticed
Ugh I can’t believe even after dropping the character over a year ago, I still have to deal with dumb af Kirby players saying D-air is useless and garbage while Hammer is underrated. It’s basically Kirby hipsters who think that and no one else. Look at any actual high level Kirby player and not discord users and you’ll see the difference in d-air use vs hammer use. Hammer is garbage and ever niche use people bring up is actually pointless and not real. Like how charged aerial hammer can break a full shield. That’s true, but it’s just a MU check gimmick and will never work against an opponent that knows about it because it’s so slow. Or using hammer to cover ledge jump. It can do that, or you can just use full hop/IDJ d-air into d-smash which is faster and is WAY more active. Also while opponents can sometimes fall out of d-air, that can happen with every multi-hit and d-air is more consistent than most.
Also it’s auto cancel d-air ride combos are difficult, they aren’t inconsistent. Additionally there’s the landing d-air combos that on most characters combo into up-tilt. A character either has to have an unusually fast combo breaker or has to be a heavy that doesn’t have a frame 4 airdodge.
I don't think anyone has ever said Dair was totally useless but whatever lol
@@joshualeespiny7172 did you , watch the video???
@@eternaldarkness2367 did you? He said Dair did have uses lmao I don't know why you're asking
@@joshualeespiny7172 and several screenshots of the discord in the video said dair is trash and useless, so lemme ask you again, did you?
@@eternaldarkness2367 oh well yes I did watch the video and I didn't notice that
As a Bowser Jr main, I might still have to go with Down Smash - cannonball does have some nice use cases to deny some characters’ horizontal recovery. Another sneakily bad move is dash attack!
As a lucas main, I would have never thought of jab, but he's actually right. It's stubby, inconsistent, awful on shield, and most importantly gets outclassed by down tilt most of the time. Down tilt is only one frame slower, way safer, and combos into forward tilt. The only time that 1 frame is super important *might* be after a magnet on shield (+0), where a jab will beat any dodge but down tilt won't.
It really hurts since it was so good in smash 4, where it had way more range and could scoop people behind him for some reason
Yea. It's his worst move, dash attack, ftilt and dtilt are much safer poking tools.
Dash attack kills is as safe as ftilt but not grabable and not Possible to punish with long range out of shield options
By the way, while Rosalina up tilt didn't get changed, philosophy and combo trees have certainly changed and most Rosalina mains now often say Gravitational Pull is Rosalina's worst move. Outside of the Pac-man and King K Rool matchups, you essentially only see it as an offstage stall against people who don't want to follow you offstage due to its high commitment and inability to hit your opponent. While you can also use it to catch other item projectiles, that doesn't really stack up to up tilt's use in early combos and it has less commitment than up air or up smash (it's basically identical to up air, but Rosalina has the highest minimum airtime off a jump in the entire roster so it's pretty committal to jump). Gravitational Pull also has a class of projectiles immune to specifically it; these include PK Flash/freeze, Fully Charged Failnaught & the exploding hitboxes of Flare's various charges.
Granted, since Luma up tilt actually is pretty good, that may make them think of solo rosa up tilt as better than it is, Gravitational Pull is just a mess; a big move where the idea payoff is an item pull
As a Mewtwo main, I fully agree on upsmash being the worst. The only time I will use it is to catch them when they tech on a platform. It's far too inconsistent otherwise. I use every other one of his moves consistently.
His up air is a core part of combos (down tilt, into fair, into side b, into up air, then into fair as an example) and his fair is good for spikes, sour spot good for combo starters, it's also a pretty good out of shield mix up.
Pichu’s is definitely side b pichu doesn’t need the extra recovery boost and side b has a ton of end lag. At the very least pichu’s up b has multiple angles and is fast enough to get around where your opponent is in most cases, but side b just gets you punished and often spiked for using it off stage because it’s so linear
BTW. SK has BANNED people just for disagreeing with SK on dair vs hammer. That's how echo chamber they are.
7:36 I agree with both you, and Charles on this one. Laser is so helpful at setting the pace of the game into Fox's favor, thay i have been appreciating it more and more as of late.
Fox's least usefully move by far is shine, imo. It either does its job ok enough against zoners, or does nothing besides edge guarding. The risk reward is so skewed against Fox though, that I feel indifferent about how worth while it is go actually edge guard with it.
I will say, looking over the cast as a whole. It does have some really good use against more top and high tier characters than you would think. Applying it to the general cast though, and no matter what way your using shine. It's utility is very clearly defined and therefore limited in its use. Reflecting, recovery mix ups, and edge guarding. Depending on what you value, I guess it is more "useful" than laser. But laser helps Fox with his general game plan more than shine, so I think for this reason it wins over shine in most, if not all cases.
It's really sad how bad samus's homing missiles are. And super missiles see some use but still not near as much as charge shot. Apart from some of her canonical abilities being missing that's my biggest gripe with samus's design in ultimate. her missiles are supposed to be devastating attacks but are mostly used for somewhat niche setups, while charge shot is almost always a better projectile and a way better kill move. Charge shot should be good too, but I think the difference between charge shot and missiles is far too much.
The sad thing is, in Melee her missiles had about as much power as you'd want them to (aka: they were an actual move), and in Ultimate, Mii Gunner of all characters has Samus's missiles from Melee, making the move currently outshined by a Mii!
That would just make Samus over powered
@@captainmega6310 Well if necessary then nerf charge shot to compensate, it would better suit her canonical abilities
DDDs FSmash used to have one pretty decent niche as it used to be a pretty decent shield breaking tool, which DDD doesn't have a lot of. That was because the Shockwave hitbox used to hit shields seperately from the hammer hitbox. But guess what, we can't have this Frame 40+ Move (had to slight charge it to break full shields btw) destroy shields in one hit, better change it so *the shockwave hitbox no longer hit shields seperately* , making it unable to break a full shield even at full charge.
Pikachus up smash is a very solid kill confirm for pikachu, nair>upsmash is one of his most prominent kill confirms. His worst move is ftilt, because its not nearly as good as setting up tech chases as dtilt and jab is a really good tech chase move and it unstales all your moves if u hit someone with it.
I think pyra’s neutral special works really well as a ledge pressure tool because it covers a lot of options. You can drift surprisingly well in the air and it’s safe enough on shield. Personally I think her worst move is down smash.
Down smash is a good get off me option and adds a lot of shied pressure.
The sour spot is easy to land and the sweet spot doesn’t compare to up and especially forward smash but it’s not a bad move, it’s outclassed but it has its uses over other moves
@@kappadarwin9476 Generally, if you’re playing pyra it’s the other way around, so down smash doesn’t serve much purpose in her kit. Pyra’s only good at finishing off characters so you’ll usually never be in a situation where you’re hunted, and if you ever are, then you can up b, use tilts, etc.
@@poweredvoltage3213 Yeah, I’m by no means saying it’s a good move really, I just think down smash is worse because there’s no reason to use it.
That feeling when you get clipped in a mock rock video 21:53
What this makes me think of is that alot of the character specific discords don't even know what their moves are used for.
55:09 Rage, like in Smash 4 (but to far less of an egregious degree), affects moves with higher base knockback values more, creating this idea of a "bigger rage spill". I don't know of many cases where it's as high as Sonic's up smash though.