Every Smash Veteran's WORST Change In Ultimate (Post-DLC)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2022
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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate famously returned every single character in Smash history to its roster, from the most consistent powerhouses to the one-offs who'd never seen the top half of a tier list. Whenever you bring an old character into a new game, changes and reworks are inevitable, and today we'll be looking at the worst change every character got from a competitive Smash perspective, using a MockRock video from the olden days as a basis for discussion.
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@@TrueCarthaginian except it is a massive issue lol, you can easily see it. not really propaganda if it's blatant truth lol
@@mikeyfresca1247 it is propaganda when all the "solutions" offered are "do things worse in the west and let china do all the polluting, profiting from doing an even worse job than if you just did it yourself"
What 🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀
The real yoshi nerf was the fact that they took 3 notes out of his victory theme for no reason
I prefer the new one actually. The two themes mesh quite poorly.
Nah, the real Yoshi nerf was getting black Yoshi replaced with wool Yoshi
@@tiersexualcommunistpropaga2766
THAT I agree.
@@tiersexualcommunistpropaga2766Man they REALLY did my boy Yosh dirty.
Bruh unplayable.
It's a little crazy to me how different the "Worst Change" list feels from the "Best Of" list. The "Best Of" list felt like substantial things that helped their gameplan for the most part, and it was changes I was aware of. The exception was with some characters who had a lot of small changes and I wasn't aware of all of them. The "Worst Of" list feels very weird for me because it's so many changes I just wasn't aware of and they feel randomly slapped around. Falcon's F-Tilt doesn't kill? Damn, I wasn't really aware it killed in the first place, but now that I'm aware of that, yeah, Falcon uses that move a decent amount, that move would be way better in Ultimate if it killed.
I think that's just the fundamental nature of good vs. bad changes. Something becoming really good means you're going to see people abuse it more often, so it becomes more prominent. On the other hand, something becoming worse means you're just not going to see it as much.
@@SSM24_ Yeah, that is true, and people are gonna talk about it less as well
Another change that was pretty bad for Falco was his up smash. The animation lifts its hitboxes much higher from the ground, which severely tanked its utility against short characters and even just grounded opponents in general. I'd say that's his worst change if I didn't miss being able to get away with side b from ledge 95% of the time in Smash 4.
The up smash is definitely an issue, no doubt, I think Falco needed the burst movement option a lot more than Fox did though. Not that Phantasm is bad by any means in Ultimate lol, but if it still crossed up shields for free? God damn.
The cross ups would have been the icing on the cake after phantasm got some pretty nice buffs in patch 8.0.
so true, up smash just doesn't hit mk and kirby
@@MockRockTalk I disagree, Phantasm still gets tons of good use since it's buff where as Up-Smash contributed a decent amount to his Out of Shield game & killing that isn't around anymore, so that's my pick.
It's still an excellent move despite that. It has one weakness, so what?
The biggest nerd for Shulk is definitely his face. They made him look like a doofus :I
And they nerfed his victory theme, too. Shulk's end screen was gutted.
Like a nerd, even?
yes, his biggest nerf and his biggest nerd
Here's the weird part about Shulk's face, if you look at the models for Ultimate and 4, they're exactly the same. It's literally the lighting and camera that make him look bad
Shulk would never
I really wish Luigi had his old cyclone in this game. Somehow they made the move less rewarding to use and more frustrating to play against.
I agree.
Yeah, but you got a ridiculously broken 0% to death chain grab combo out of the deal.
Sponge-boi me Bob, I got grabbed at 6% by Luigi for whiffing a Nair and I'm gonna lose a stock, KYAKKAKAKAKA
Kirby's up throw wasn't directly nerfed in Ultimate though. It kills later because of a universal mechanic where characters have heavier physics when launched at a vertical angle rather than using their normal physics.
Yeah, nothing I've found confirms that move's kill power was nerfed.
I think it's just the weaker rage & high ceilings for competitive stages that threw people off.
It's the same throw, but without the insane rage of Smash 4, it's worse. Wish they would've compensated the knock back, but oh well. Stone nerf to shield is worse.
@@djdrizzy9139 Yeah either that or Forward & Back bouncing Kirby too high & landing on BF platforms, weakening it's combo ability.
@@MrGameguyC That used to be my answer until 6.0.0; now since we have new platform combos, it evens out. Stone not working as it should (even thd demo had it work!!) is the most devastating nerf since now stone is super unsafe on shield.
I actually rather recently learned that Toon Link’s new forward smash comes from one of his basic sword attack animations in Wind Waker, still weird that’s the only thing they changed about him though
Honestly, would've worked better as his Jab finisher.
@@alexmills9223 Agreed, and if he was gonna get a new f smash then it should have been hammer
@@snuffysam AGREED
I'd actually say Mr. Game & Watch's worst change is his down tilt
Down tilt was up there for me as well, I think back air is his more-used move out of them though
@@MockRockTalk It'd still say Fair.
There's many cases he would have preferred his old one as a solid front-facing option in the air, his current bomb-drop is just a bit too specific and gimmicky IMO.
(Not that he needs it of course. lol)
@MockRockTalk down tilt trades utility for being a strong as hell down tilt that sends at a nasty angle, and has respectable enough frame data to be a good punish (plus it low profiles). i think it's way too useful still to be his worse change, whereas up tilt is basically never used in this game.
32:22 For Robin's change, you may want to consider the damage increase Arc Thunder got. In that Smash 4 clip, it hit all of its hit boxes and only did about 9%. Now, if you hit all of it's hitboxes, it does 29% A massive increase, it's very important in some of robin's worse matchups like against pikachu. land 2-3 arcthunders and Pikachu is in kill percent easy.
Yeah I wouldn't call that a strict nerf. What about checkmate?
Wolf's worst change was removing his cool taunts from Brawl.
"Nyaagh"
His incredibly arrogant voice is gone.
As someone who mained Wolf in Brawl, almost exclusively because of his f-smash...THANK YOU. Everyone loves the new one, I was starting to think I was crazy.
I was so sad to see that they changed it in Ultimate. Fsmash and side b were my fav parts of the character. At least one survived the transition rip lol
@@jesseblake3508 I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE
I really love to see you revisit all the old videos. Really great content and im happy to see you upload.
23:25 Dedede's up air actually kills earlier now, ever since the buff. Pre patch it had relatively around the same knockback it had in Smash 4, it didn't even KO well in Smash 4 with proper DI. It still doesn't KO that well but it didn't KO that well to begin with anyway.
If anything I'd say his Fsmash got nerfed the hardest, sure it was situational before but at least when you landed it, it generally worked as intended. Now the move is plagued with: more prominent sourspots that are extremely weak, hitboxes not functioning as intended leading to the move failing, blindspots, risk of even getting ko'd for landing it if you trade with the 0% hitbox etc.
Not to mention Jet Hammer significantly outclasses it in its role too now large part thanks to Fsmash not functioning anymore.
Ah okay, I actually didn't realize that, good catch, thanks!
Good point.
Wouldn't have thought of that.
yeah i was like. erm?
I'd still stick with the original gordo bounce change. Neither change really affects him competitively, but the bounce change meant he lost stylish combos and jank, which is what he was known for.
I guess it did give us double-hit gordo though
@@loganalleman Fsmash used to see some legitimate uses for some MUs and shield pressure (which it's also worse at now), and the very few buffs (like the buffed shockwaves damage) to compensate the drastic nerfs the move got hardly make enough of a difference (granted most of the nerfs were unintentional) unlike Gordo which used to have an extremely pathetic hitbox in the previous game for an example.
Gordo bounce is a mixed bag, it is a lot more consistent vs off stage opponents now at least since frequently you'd have opponents winding up getting knocked towards the stage and it saving them as a result (double hit can still cause it out of nowhere ofc), although that also saw its uses.
Double hit Gordo was also in Smash 4, though less prominent.
But my main view here are as the moves as a whole, and Fsmash serves almost no real purpose anymore given the risk rarely gets rewarded even when you set it up right + Jet Hammer outclasses it severely as well now.
I still disagree with Greninja's Dair. It's a reliable spike and using it no longer burns your double jump anymore, wich is a big deal when you go for a deep edgeguard. And it was never safe since you could simply sidestep it and punish the tremendous landing lag.
I would go for Shadow Sneak because it lost the hitstun cancel glitch. Loosing that get out of combos free card really sucked. Yes it was punishable and it is still a great recovery and edgeguarding move but being able one-shot a Meta Knight or Bayonetta attempting to bring you into the heavens was really good.
Another contender is dash grab, wich was made significantly slower. Problem is, both in Ultimate and 4 you generally want to use the Dash Attack instead anyway.
I think Marth’s worst change was actually Dancing Blade. Tipper fair was never really a *huge* kill move in S4, and even the untipped version is still a solid spacing tool and is good for edgeguards.
Dancing Blade was a premiere kill move in Smash 4 though, and you frequently saw Marth players relying on it to secure stocks. Ultimate’s changes to DB-style moves greatly benefitted Roy, but they were far more detrimental to Marth. The tipper hitbox is much narrower, the particle effects don’t accurately convey the tipper, and the increased speed of the slashes combined with Ult’s faster knockback makes it harder to time the last hit consistently.
Didn’t watch this yet but I can’t wait to see his reaction to his old self yell “BRING! BACK! IKE’S! FORWARD AIR!” by pausing, saying “YEP!”, and moving on to the next character.
Edit: Bruh u missed such an obvious humor opportunity 😤
Ike’s section is on 20:05 if you wanna experience the disappointment for yourself.
It’s harder to position luma in ultimate, the distance luma can be from you feels much more strict. You can’t use jab to walk luma forward anymore either
With all of the “best ____ in smash history”, now I want a best of every smash move in *the whole series*
Basically everything is brawl MK
@@pandalenz6534 unironically yeah lmao. Tornado, shuttle loop, up air down air, down smash etc lmao
@@Alibaba-id1cs wouldn't dair be kirby 64
Here’s an incomplete list of moves I’d personally go with:
Jab: Idk but probably something from Brawl or Sm4sh, jabs were crazy in those games
Ftilt: Brawl MK, Sephiroth or prepatch Pichu
Utilt: 64 Kirby, Brawl Snake, or Steve
Dtilt: Brawl MK or Sm4sh Mewtwo
Dash attack: Maybe Sm4sh Samus??? Idk
Fsmash: Idk too many good options
Usmash: Either Melee Fox or prepatch Min-Min
Dsmash: Melee Peach, Brawl MK, or prepatch Wolf
Nair: 64 Puff, Brawl MK, Sm4sh Cloud, or prepatch Ike
Fair: -Idk- How tf did I forget about Melee Sheik, easy win
Bair: Melee Puff, Brawl Wolf, or Sm4sh Cloud
Dair: 64 Kirby, Melee Falco, Melee Marth, Brawl MK, Sm4sh Cloud, Pyra, or prepatch Ivysaur (god why are there so many stupidly good down airs in smash history)
Uair: Brawl MK or Sm4sh Cloud
Neutral B: Ult Shulk or Steve, or Brawl MK
Side B: Brawl MK, Sm4sh Sonic or Sm4sh Corrin
Down B: Sm4sh Bayo is in the conversation, but it’s ABSOLUTELY Melee Fox. Also Brawl MK, but that depends if you count the competitively banned vanishing tech.
Up B: 64 Pika, Brawl MK, or Ult G&W
Input: Kazuya Mishima
This is using the same exclusionary criteria as Mock, for the record. I think if we’re a bit more lenient, Bair and Side B actually go to Arsene and Steve, respectively, with absolutely no competition.
If there’s any glaring exceptions I’m missing, let me know
Surprisingly few picks I'd actually give to Brawl MK, now that the list is more complete. Though, to be fair, almost all of them are at least top 5 in their category apart from jab, AND they're on a character with six jumps and gliding.
Also hot take, I think Monado Arts or Block are better moves in a vacuum than Brawl Tornado, but Brawl MK is WAY more set up to abuse tornado, and it’s still a game breaking move in its category - just not as good as the other two.
@@theillusionist1494 pre-patch ivysaur dair
21:47 I guess this doesn’t count since it is a universal change but Lucas got hit the hardest by the addition of being able to tech footstools. Lucas was definitely the footstool character and he lost pretty much all of his sauce in the move to ultimate (he is getting some of it back with slingshot zair infinites)
Footstool Djcz loop cause slingshot is very pointless as lucas outside of holdshot
Perfect irar is better
Still weird to me that Ness would headbutt characters 3 games in a row rather than use PSI for up air. Strange seeing an otherwise pretty normal kid delete characters with his head lol
I mean, it's a pretty big head.
@@hlavco "But I don't wanna use my head!"
For robin arcthunder was def thought to be a gutted move from smash 4 but as ult has gone on robins have found much better ways to use it
As a move, it was changed to hold opponents in place for a much shorter time but it's damage was changed from 10% in 4 to 28% in ultimate
Furthermore, it plays much more of a role in neutral based on how much importance ultimate puts on landing aerials, which arcthunder is fantastic for punishing
The most important thing is that it still combos into a crazy amount of robin's kit
Combos are mostly dependent on spacing, in which great spacing allows robin to combo an fsmash which will kill around 40, but even with subpar spacing she can still follow the opponent with thunder > bair
This along with the fact that shielding the move now has more options to punish makes it honestly a better move that just requires more skill to take advantage of
Would definitely say robin belongs to the list of characters who deserves a throw combo mention, dthrow used to have combos from 0% all the way to kill percent but now can no longer combo after 60
Correcting this a full 5 days later after remembering the actual worst change was robin not starting the game with levin sword anymore
Personally, I'm loving the comparision of how you saw things before compared to now! Makes me realize just how long ago it was when we were hyping up the game in 2018 and 2019, and also brings in perspective how the meta evolved over the years
for olimar, i'm surprised you didnt mention how bad his shield is, it's so easy to shieldpoke him
on launch of ultimate they made his shield too small, then they buffed him to fix the shield, then they nerfed him to make his hurtbox bigger and they didnt move the shield with it so he just gets poked again
also surprised that corrin's counter didnt get mentioned, that went from one of the best counters in 4 to one of the worst in ult
For Lucas, weirdly enough, I'd say that making nair not always send in front is actually in contention. While nair overall was buffed so you don't fall out, if it still always sent in front with those buffs, it would basically be better palu nair. Nair loops and combos into fair and bair would be busted.
Also, looking back at ssb4 hitboxes, his normals used to be way bigger. Especially jab, where the old hitbox was, like, 5 times bigger.
Nair being inconsistent is so rough compared to something like puff Dair where she has the air speed to react and the move lasts longer so you have the time to react as well. Not to mention his dragdown nair got worse with less multihits and putting the opponent in less disadvantage at low-mid percents. Lucas really got gutted in this game :(
@Shrimpchris I wouldn't say gutted. Maybe for your specific playstyle, but he also got improved in alot of ways
HEAVILY disagree with the zss change. Going for grabs is still a big part of her gameplan in ultimate sheerly from how much she conditions her opponent to shield, and losing the guaranteed follow-ups from down-throw was absolutely brutal. It means that zss has to win neutral far more than her opponent in order to get them to kill percent, which is excasterbated by the fact that she's one of the lightest characters in the game.
I think the changes to zss down throw and marcina up throw can't be understated. When you can't combo or kill out of your throws it makes it incredibly difficult to force your opponent out of shield. This means that your ability to take the initiative or close out stocks are greatly hampered. It also greatly hampers your ability to stop your opponent's aggression because landing aerial into shield is now a low risk option as shield grabbing is a mediocre punish.
As a corrin main, my side B not being bigger than the entire stage hurts 😢
I'm gonna defend Zelda's modern D-Tilt because against some characters with poor OoS options or in the corner onstage it can be a really obnoxious poking tool that lets her harass opponents with also low-profiling a lot of options. Characters could choose to jump out of shield but then they play with the risk of getting Lightning Kicked in one of the worst positions to be Lightning Kicked. It's a good move overall, even if I generally preferred the juggling potential it had in Smash 4.
No, I'm going with jab. It's a decent poke and it can stuff some approaches, but it doesn't make up for the fact that Zelda's old Jab almost always led to a free grab. And Zelda's throws in Ultimate are fucking phenomenal, having two kill throws, a terrific offstage positioning throw, and a combo throw that also leads to DI mix-ups. Zelda would be a much more potent character if she had her old Jab enough that I could easily call it a nerf.
Yeah I definitely get your Captain Falcon dash grab point. I think due to my play style I would make use of more f-tilt kills than not nerfed dash grabs- I'm used to Zelda's bad dash grab lol. So for me personally I'd rather see a killing forward tilt for Captain Falcon than a better dash grab. But I completely get it from a usually more general perspective
While we're at it, fix his dash turnaround animation😂
This is one of my most anticipated videos. After the best changes equivalent, I really wanted to see where things stood now
Same.
5:03 I don't get how making Samus focused on shooting (her main way of attacking in her games) instead of playing American Football makes her less accurate to her games, but OK.
For Cloud, I'd say Finishing Touch specifically got it the worst, since it went from busted, especially in Doubles, to almost-never used.
The only reason she even shoots anything at all is because of how much bigger they are, and some of her most popular moves are very physical, like the speed booster and shine spark
the fact that charizard fair doesn't autocancel anymore throws me off to this day. it just. feels like a move that should autocancel like it did, but it doesn't because of what could very well be an oversight? a little frustrating and it keeps the move from feeling satisfying
Same.
It's why I don't play PT anymore.
great video, cool to see how different smash is now than back then and how characters have evolved
i like how your writing and presence have evolved since you made these original videos
its very interesting going back on old videos and seeing how much things have changed in years.
I believe Kirby's U-Throw technically has the same knock back values that it did in Smash 4. I think its "nerf" is mainly due to physics/mechanics changes.
I might be wrong, but I believe a lot of the legal stages also got their vertical blastzones extended, likely to prevent the ladder combo shenanigans that happened in SSB4, which pretty much universally nerfed all of the vertical KO throws. I believe Mewtwo up throw being nerfed was a common misconception back in the day, when in reality it never got changed at all.
There is a few exceptions like Marth/Lucina who did get the knockback on their up throws directly nerfed.
I've looked into it and I haven't seen anything that confirms Kirby's Up-Throw has worse kill power. (Same with Mario's Up-Smash)
The nerf to rage & higher ceiling blast zones make every vertical kill move worse, so people probably haven't accounted for that.
30:31 It's also worth pointing out that Thrust Uppercut actually got buffed at one point to be an actual kill move. At the time you made that video, the move was absolute garbage, but now it's a staple.
3:55 Link Fair was probably better in s4 (at least with the wild shield pushback in that game), but Ult Fair 1 has the same shield safety as Fair 2
i know you just had to say all of that stuff because they paid you to but there is absolutely nothing that the regular person can do to offset the destruction that is being done by gigantic corporations
i don't say this so that people get the wind taken out of them when it comes to minimizing environmental impact. i say this because it's important to know that it's not their fault, and they shouldn't feel guilty.
Ah another MockRock video. Time to rewatch it endlessly over the coming months.
Swordfighter Bair is still really great. It's a decently fast and very powerful move. Honestly Mii Swordfighter is probably the most underrated character in ultimate.
Ong
I'd still say Young Link's worst change is the removal of the meteor smash hitbox on his Down Air.
I think zelda's nair is a contender for her worst change. The move used to use autolink hit boxes in smash 4 but now uses a bunch of small hitboxes with varying angles. This not only made it more consistent in smash 4 but also could drag down into up b for a kill confirm.
MockRock: *Chooses Limit as Cloud’s worst change in Smash Ultimate at **34:01*
Cloud’s neutral air: Allow me to introduce myself.
The actual BIGGEST change that cloud had... Limit is much more fair but with about the Nair?
THe thing is that, in smash four, even tho it was insanely good it wasn't an overcentralizing part of his moveset.
@@kimotokirby1601 Sure it wasn't Cloud's main game plan in Smash 4, but it doesn't have much use as Limit or Up air. Nair's main use case in Smash 4 was an edgeguarding tool. Take that main strength away, and the move doesn’t have a lot of use. You still can use it as a edgeguarding tool, but you’d probably wanna use back air since that kills earlier and still has a lot of range.
I still would argue Up-Air, it has less killpower & active frames.
Limit got buffed later to charge faster from Down-B and it's overall more common since you get more from dealing damage.
15:15 Wait a minute. Ganondorf's up air can still hit behind. I gimp people like that all the time.
Up-Air is worse at doing that, but it can still happen.
Flame Choke killing Ganon first IMO is still the biggest nerf, in Sm4sh it allowed him to steal games very well which he can't do anymore.
21:30 I definitely agree, Lucas d throw was everything in Smash 4. And because down throw to up air was a kill confirm, that means all of Lucas' throws killed in Smash 4 lol. You were never safe getting grabbed.
I support reducing carbon footprint but not acknowledging that any efforts made by us is negligible if major countries and industry don't change their own...
This is more like what each characters biggest nerf was instead of worst change. Because some character changes may have been nerfs but were a good change for balancing reasons orbsomething like that.
Semantics
Did Sm4sh have the best combo names or what? The Ding Dong? The Toot Toot?
Here’s to Game and Watch getting a useful up tilt in the next game… in like 2047
I could live with that Ike Foward air , IF it could at least still auto cancel out of a short hop
Yeah, I would have taken a bigger nerf to Nair if Fair got it's old kill power & Short Hop Auto Cancel window back.
It'd give him a more healthy neutral for sure.
Not sure I agree with Arc Thunder being Robins worst change.
Ultimately, she still has a combo special in Arc Fire whereas not starting the match with Levin sword basically just makes her aerials useless until 10 seconds in.
It's like if they made Rosa not start the match with a Luma.
I fully agree, Robin was mostly buffed so it's tough to pick.
Even when the quality dropped a little bit, I could still see his smile widen during the Roy montage.
For Shulk, I'd honestly argue that the way that his Monado Arts function as a whole was a change that made him worse. From what I've noticed, the effects of the Arts thenselves are only slightly stronger, whereas their duration was cut down significantly. There may be a few niche situations where having them wear off quickly in exchange for a slight strength buff could be advantageous, but more often than not, I'm left wishing that the Art I selected lasted just a bit longer.
Honorable mention goes to his counter, but I'm still not sure if it being as weak as it is now is a result of individual character adjustments or the overall changes to the game's systems and mechanics.
Slightly? Maybe if you're insane
Bowser: Loses Up-Throw combos. Becomes a much better character overall due to buffs elsewhere.
DK: Loses Ding Dong. No longer exists.
Chunky Kong does not approve your post.
As a Zelda main, can confirm - it is 100% still down tilt. All of the combos or kill confirms you can get off of it are either untrue or incredibly difficult to perform consistently thanks to the changed knockback angle. Jab, meanwhile, is really disjointed, kills, went from frame 11 to frame 4, and also got buffed in 13.0.0 so now jab 1 can kill confirm into dash attack or down smash at high percents.
Not saying down tilt isn’t still good, but if it were smash 4 down tilt, Zelda would move up several spots on the tier list
i really love these types of videos. your content is awesome
I played Lucas is Smash 4 and down throw in Ultimate just makes me sad. Nintendo literally changed the move just so Lucas can't combo off of it anymore. No important buffs from it at all.
New villager jab actually has a funny cancel tech we discovered
Watering can walk to ledge, hold jab, and you can cancel it (ignore the jab finisher) into literally any move (nair dair fair axe) to kill stupidly early
I’d say Wario’s bike cooldown is still his worst because you need to apply the mentality of what Wario isn’t doing. Without bike cooldown, he could pretty comfortably go offstage for a kill with Bair or even gimps with fair and other moves. He can still do this, but not nearly as much as he originally could due to this cooldown. I am aware that nowadays, players are favoring to stay on stage for these types of situations, but I’d say limiting the availability of these options is a bigger deal than losing a killing forward throw that’s kinda replace with a command grab.
I almost want to say Pac’s worst change was to Usmash because it’s less safe and doesn’t even work out of Bell 95% of the time due to the changes to the first hit’s angle but it has to be UP B as you said. It is still a good combo breaker, camping tool, and ledgetrapping tool but while Pac still has great OOS and get off me options, losing a frame 1 is such a big af blow lmao nothing comes close.
Also ik a lot of people will say Utilt but Utilt is still great anti air and combo tool from Galaxian, and pressures platforms better due to the intangible fist, tho losing the grounded Hydrant launch blows for sure.
For G&W I’d also nominate Down Tilt, it no longer is a big disjointed poke that could be safe-ish, it’s now just a niche low profile and combo ender that’s hella unsafe and small, but Bair is also a trade off and is used more so idk.
Great video as always! Can’t wait to rewatch this infinitely
Finished the video, honestly was surprised how many I called but also disagreed with, the last few video I tend agree much more.
There's plenty of highlights to picks, I guess if I were to pick one it's DK, I think his worse change is Up-B.
Platform Ding Dong is still very viable, his F-Throw got buffed in many other areas, and I'd agrue the unversive nerf to short-range grabs while also going from 2 to 3 stock is what hurt DK's grab game more.
Up-B lost it's frame 3 I-frames and doesn't linger in the air as long, weakening it's stalling/mix up ability which is what made it a decent recovery in Sm4sh.
His Disadvantage is notably weaker because of which and considering how bad it is now in Ult, DK would have taken any help he could get.
Also Mii Gunner's Air Speed is way worse, in a game where mobility matters so much & nearly everyone else's was buffed, that really sucks.
It's always good when MockRock uploads
You always come up with the best video ideas 🔥
Essentially all the changes made to reduce Marth's tipper hitboxes have been reversed during balance patches in Ultimate's lifespan. The only real differences between Smash 4 Marth Forward Air and Ult's is the reducing in knockback growth, the smaller sour body hitbox, and the lack of a reverse hit.
Which while subtainal, I would argue that Jab 1 confirms (Although I think you didn't count things like that) and Up-Throw's kill power (although some of it was also due to changes to Rage between games) are more substainal nerfs.
But an honorable mention that most people forget is Dancing Balde Up 4 losing it's ability to kill all together is probably a massive nerf and I might recommend that as the most standalone-not game engine influenced nerf he got overall.
I would say for young link his worst change is down smash, it went from one of his fastest and best kill moves to a pretty useless one, it sent at a very good angle which was pretty deadly at ledge and was also a good option out of CC, in ultimate I don’t think it does anything that some of his other moves wouldn’t do better
On 8:57, you mention that Captain Falcon’s f-tilt losing its kill power was a massive nerf, but not worse than his dash grab being changed which I don’t agree with. It’s not like Falcon struggles to get a grab, and he still gets plenty of reward from it. And while the tech chase stuff with f-tilt is pretty good, he can’t get much off of it either than a dash attack. Yes, he can get a grab which is really good, but the stage position of one grab leading to your opponent’s death is pretty specific. Yeah he’s not a bad edgeguarding character but getting a grab combo that kills only works if you drag your opponent across the stage. And your opponent may tech away from the stage more commonly to avoid that happening, or any other reason. So I would say that f-tilt losing its kill power is his worst change.
Edit: Actually it’s his dash grab. I played Smash 4 recently & found out that it doesn’t have reliable kill power in that game either. It’s not as bad as it is in Ultimate, but it killed Samus’s at 160% in Sm4sh.
Yo, how about you make a top 10 of characters who should be reworked? You talk about a lot of characters who you feel should be changed up (like Samus, Little Mac and Ganondorf), so I wanna see who you'd want reworked most and how you would do so.
Pichu's up smash went from nearly fox levels of strong to pretty weak all in all.
i would argue that bayo is more affected by witch twist startup increase consistcy of its muti-hits lowered vs the upair.
up air hurts but the fact that witch twist cannot be a reliable combo tool, has no reversal capabilities AND doesn't snap ledge hurts way more.
The not snapping to ledge is my biggest problem tho it would help if WT had very slightly bigger hit boxes as well cause it can still be inconsistent on small characters
Some of these changes practically NEEDED to be changed, luigi frame 1 cyclone is one of his best moves, people barely use falco up smash since everyone else use kill confirms, also DK ding dong still exist though you have to use a platform to do it
I love how every down they're upper combo that existed in Smash 4 had a funny name to it like the ding dong or the hoo-ha or the beep boop or the Checkmate I could go on and on to be honest
At 8:56, if you go fullscreen, then progress bar lines up with the progress bar of the video he's watching. At least, it does on my laptop.
Sure wish this was at least an hour long 😅😅😅 we luv u Mock
For Toon Link I think that his worst change overall is the nerfs to his smash attacks. You talked about f-smash in the video but up smash and down smash both were nerfed and one of his big issues in Ult is killing so I think that’s his biggest nerf
10:41 I think it’s also that dlc pack 2 generally destroys bowser very hard
HOLD UP. Pits orbitars were indeed nerfed, at least in one other aspect; their cheese potential has been reduced drastically. Instead of pushing opponents to the side during rising recoveries, it launches them upwards and to the side, meaning you can't gimp nearly as well as you could in smash 4. It's the one thing I miss from smash 4; I can't reliably down b recoveries such as link's anymore.
Also, your an absolute legend for doing a reaction video to your own video, no harm done to the original creator lol
I legit thought that was a spinda in your thumbnail
If I can give a suggestion, moves that got worse throughout Ultimate without being nerfed. For instance, Bowser down smash started out absolutely amazing but became nigh obsolete once people started truly abusing up b. Another example is Roy's neutral b because dair was eventually discovered to be more reliable at 2 framing with less lag
Bring back Luma Jab confirm into Up Tilt KO’s from Sm4sh. That was one of the best things to come out of that character!
Luma Up Tilt would kill EARLY with rage, now it’s just a niche and rather mediocre move that no one, or rarely anyone, uses.
In the case for Wolf, I do think there are two other nerfs that are in-contention along with back air.
One of which is his weight. Wolf actually got one of the largest weight nerfs in the transition to Ultimate. His weight in Brawl was 102, which was the equivalent of a semi-heavyweight, and it got reduced to 92 in Ultimate, which is the equivalent to a light-midweight. Combo resistance due to the lighter weight doesn't even matter since hitstun canceling got drastically nerfed since Brawl.
The other is his up special, which goes noticeably less far and would've already benefitted a lot from the removal of ledge-hogging. However, I am more shaky with this one since it got some notable buffs in other areas, but the distance nerf is pretty noticeable.
As for DK, he didn't really get nerfed much from the loss of Ding Dong, especially since it is still technically possible, and his grab game got heavily buffed outside of that and thus remains incredible. DK in general received mostly buffs across the board.
The biggest nerfs to DK is honestly existing in Ultimate, as the airdodge changes makes his already bad disadvantage, poor to the point of memeworthy, and his grappler-esque focused playstyle got nerfed heavily due to shield grabbing being a whole lot worse and the buffs to everyone's approach thanks to the better movement options and reduced landing lag on aerials. He in general hates Ultimate's aerial focused meta.
But since all of that is more indirect, his biggest direct nerf is definitely aerial Spinning Kong, as it no longer has intangibility on frames 3-6, and it lost a whole lot of damage, which was something DK players would utilize in up throw combos in SSB4. That latter aspect of the move would've benefitted a lot from the fact that aerial up B now has a proper launcher hit.
My point about DK also applies with Mewtwo. When you compare with SSB4 Mewtwo's tail hurtbox, it didn't actually increase by that much, especially after it got buffed at 4.0.0. The airdodge change was definitely the killing blow. Mewtwo relied on his airdodge a lot in SSB4, especially since he was even lighter in that game. It was essentially a get-out-of-jail free card. Now his status as a tall, floaty lightweight is now completely exposed, which skews his risk-reward ratio beyond belief.
In terms of direct changes, I think his biggest nerf was nair. His moveset got mostly direct buffs across the board, but this one definitely sticks out as directly nerfed. The move has a shorter duration, which isn't much by itself, but its overall duration wasn't changed to compensate, which significantly increased the endlag of the move which is in combination of it taking longer to interrupt. All of its hitboxes except for the final one also got reduced as well.
With Wolf, yeah it's the weight nerf while still getting combo'd the same due to higher hitstun, same as Ivy.
DK, his Up-B lost it's frame 3 I-Frames & it doesn't stall as long in the air for mix-ups, which made it an okay recovery move before & since DK has a very bad disadvantage state, he would have appericated his old Up-B. (The grounded one is a little better, but it's laggier and isn't good enough to make up for it IMO)
@@MrGameguyC Grounded up B is definitely much better, as it KO's a little earlier, has earlier super armor, and most importantly of all, actually functions properly. In SSB4, the move did not work whatsoever. Other moves like ROB side B and Bowser grounded up B was also cursed with this.
Endlag nerf doesn't matter since it was already super punishable on whiff/block.
@@the_bookworm8281 Fair points, but I still don't agree.
Within the criteria, Palu's bair was probably her worst nerf going in to Ult, but the jab cancel/dthrow nerfs fundamentally changed her playstyle. Can you imagine if she still had her old jab > grab > dthrow > nair/uair combos in Ult, now that you can jab out of dash? Yikes.
Imo, if they kept Limit as it was in Smash 4, Cloud would be better but not even that much better. It sucks that the one time he was canon, he HAD to be gutted along with the change in general from Smash4 to Ultimate.
8:20 lol it looks like he’s playing against fatality with the most calm look on his face
Just in time!
tbf, DK now has DKO which works on most stages that are legal and DK players can just ban the stages it doesn’t work on
Awesome choice of sponsor!
I agree on Villy, but a close 2nd is the increased startup on dair for sure
It kinda baffles me how Smash Ultimate made some really good buffs to a lot of veterans but when it came to their worst changes…
A lot of these just make you ask Why?
Like, what was the reason they removed it?
Especially to low tier characters who struggle in the meta why do you give them big nerfs?!
I may be exaggerating a bit, but ultimates logic when it comes to balancing their roster is the definition of “We’re not making waves, but here’s some patch notes so you can shut up about it”
I used to main toon link and I will forever say that the removable/major nerf to bomb fake outs is what made me switch mains. Its probably wasn't that big of a deal competitively, but I still felt like a major reduction to his overall complexity
Ding dong, toot toot, beep boop...Smash players come up with the silliest combo names lmao
Great vid!
Maybe, as a gimmick, you could do a Best Animated Moves of Melee video? Just spitballing ideas.
Greninja's dtilt was the real casualty
as a smash 4 Zelda player I want to mention that her old nair had drag down combos into kill confirms and combo extensions like uptilt, grab, up b, etc. In ult it will pop the opponent up with each hit leading to less true followups, and to make it worse, it is also easier to cross up midway through the move or just miss the second half all together if you hit it with any momentum.
31:15
While it may very well still be the "worst" change for Mii Gunner between games, saying it's "not necessarily bad" is kinda doing F-Air a bit of a disservice, since it now allows for some phenomanal movement tech options.
Mii gunner fun
Since you mentioned some Moves being among "the best in the entire series", I would love to see a collection of that.
Basically like your "the best move of every kind" Video, but not with all of Smash Ultimate, but all of Smash History combined, seeing how broken a Character could be when using all Games. Well, maybe not 64. In general, it would be hard to balance that list and you'd have to imagine how those moves would work in Ultimate's Engine, but a fun experiment nonetheless I think.
Just saying for LUCAS down throw can be used as di mix up like grab close to ledge people will di in to survive the throw but make down throw an actual combo throw again. So it's a mix up , also it does like 15% so gotta make due with what we got lol
Luma gentleman doesnt kill but his rapid jab does so decently well, albeit on the side
Actually very well, I am killing people at 100