Hi Mike, glad you took the course and had a good experience there! I have been a MSF certified rider coach since 2018, averaging about 9 classes a season. The course is set up to develop basic understanding of a motorcycle and to expose students to some basic skills in preperation for them riding on their own. Throughout the class I tell students, "here it's lines and cones, out there your in the wrong lane and there are cars there!" I always let them know that they are riding in a parking lot at parking lot speeds and once they start riding on the road it's a whole new ballgame! I emphasize the lifesaving skills like the quick stop and the swerve and tell them to practice those on their own bike, along with ALL the other skills we worked on throughout the course. The states approve the final evaluation process and we are evaluators at that point. I have seen good riders fail and bad riders pass, but at that point my job is to evaluate the skills that they can demonstrate, not judge if they are a good/bad rider. It's a tough one to live with sometimes! I agree with a tiered licensing system for sure, I don't believe a beginner should be able to go out and hop on a sport bike, they need to develop some skills before doing that, and I tell my students that as well. Thanks for the topic and your time! Jeff
Hey Jeff, I was hoping that you would see this one. I hope you took no offensive to this. I did learn some things, which was the hope and I did pass - so I'm able to get my license. So job done. We had one stand out that I would not have passed if I was teaching the course, but I wasn't teaching the class so, perhaps they could see something that I didn't. I think this would be hard to teach and even harder to tell someone, no. But, we move on. I don't think the criteria will ever change, even though maybe it should. Thanks for watching 💪👍😉🤙
I took the Harley course. Best $400 I've ever spent. We had to have a permit to take it, I think....It was 10 years ago ish. I learned a lot in the course, but the most important thing I learned was how much I didn't know and it caused me to be more cautious even while in a car. I wouldn't advocate for a more difficult motorcycle licensing process, because I think even less people would jump through the hoops to get it. I would be mad if the US adopted a European model of stepped licenses. I get what you are saying but I don't believe the state can legislate out dumb dumbs. I've met people with no license that can flat ride and people that have a license that shouldn't be around a motor vehicle. Good video. Thought provoking for sure. Keep up the good work.
I think that was the premise of this class as well. It really did a good job of going through the basics on how to become more familiar with how things behave on a motorcycle and then repetition was key after that until you became comfortable enough to move on to something more. I did learn some things in the class well. I agree - I don't think that we'll ever adopt a new procedure, but as we were discussing this I think, I hope, I made a valid point that driver's education for cars is much more in-depth. The explanation I have for this is pure volume. There are considerably more people who will drive a car versus ride a motorcycle.
@@ACECafeBikes point well made. I agree. Respecting the machine is important and goes a long way toward safety too…..anything from a lawnmower to a motorcycle.
Interesting to hear the USA ways of motorcycle licence. In the UK where I am, you have to complete a CBT test (compulsory basic training) first to be able to ride on the road on a learners licence, or a full car licence if you have one. This test is a day course that is usually split into morning training of manoeuvres and braking skills and the afternoon on public roads with instructors if you have been able to show basic competence of motorcycle control during the morning. Enjoy your channel, look forward to more uploads. Cheers👍🔧
Sorry forgot to say, restricted to 50cc at 16 years old, 125cc at 17 years old. Then you can move onto a full motorcycle licence through further training after.
Here in Ohio a permit is pretty much the same, take the written test, no passengers, helmet, eye protection and no night riding. Back in the 80s I road around for a couple of years on my BILs extra bike. My ex nagged my to quit and like a D-A I did it. Fast forward to 2023 and I'm getting back onto bikes and I take a MSF to get my license. I was a little disappointed in the class but they told you up front that after that class you should take another couple classes. I will say, they did do a good job on the slow speed issues that I never learned back in the day. All in all I say the MSF was worth my time and money.
Thanks for shooting over a comment - great to hear from you and seeing how it differs from state to state. I thought the course was good for the same reasons. However, if I hadn't seen, what I considered a poor rider get passed through I think I would have a different perspective. After seeing that, it makes me believe that its more about providing information, collecting our money, and pushing you through. Perhaps if I hadn't seen that I wouldnt feel like this. Thanks again for sharing
This is a great video and the issues you bring up need to be discussed because they are valid concerns for the safety of new motorcyclists. The Basic Rider Courses is just as the name implies, basic. In order to pass the course you must meet the minimum standards the state sets. You must pass a written test and a skills evaluation in order to pass the course. In my opinion, this is a step up from passing a written test to get your permit and then jumping on a bike to figure it out on your own. I agree with you in regards to the course not necessarily getting a novice rider 100% ready for real world riding but those real world topics are covered in the classroom portion of the course here in Ohio were riding scenarios are presented and then discussed. It does get the student thinking more about a safe riding attitude than just riding and hoping it all works out fine. The premiss is that good judgement is essential to safe motorcycling and not good skills alone. You need both and that is what the Basic Rider Course in Ohio offers. The mental and the physical aspects of motorcycling. Yes I agree with you, I think the process of getting a permit should involve training prior to obtaining a permit and putting wheels in motion but that is a legislative issue not a Basic Riders Course issue. Perhaps you should take an Advanced Rider course on your own bike or even consider becoming an instructor yourself. I feel you have a lot to offer to the riding community.
Thanks for chiming in. I may have glossed over the fact that we had 5 hours on an online course as well that had to be completed prior to the riding bit. Honestly, I have thought about being a coach in the past. I really like motorcycles - I like the community, I like the feeling you get whilst riding, and for a long time I was a trainer and my current job. However, with that being said, I think that we can agree that this wouldn't change the process and you are correct, its not the course, its the legislation that has it backwards. Thanks so much for stopping by - I appreciate your opinion and your kind words. Mike
In Alaska from what I’ve heard from someone involved with the MSC is that you can do it either way, permit before or after the course. I did send an email and I have no clue if it was an instructor or just someone in the Harley shop though. I think that’s a pretty solid way of doing things. I’m also don’t have my license or anything yet but I find the difference interesting
Glad you took the course! I think our system is a compromise between no training and what the Europeans do, with graduated licensing. There is definitely room for improvement, but it's incumbent upon the individual to seek out the extra training and practice to get better. I think the motorcycle licensing requirements are geared towards people who already have a car license, so they know the rules of the road and how to maneuver a car in traffic. The bike courses are to teach you safe operation of a motorcycle in some or most of the conditions you'll face out on the road, but in the controlled environment of the course. I remember when we were doing the driving portion of our car license class - we had 3 students and 1 instructor, and we'd all take turns. You can't do THAT on a bike, so the cost and complexity of the course would be prohibitive. At the end of the day, it's up to US as motorcyclists to practice, take classes, and get better at the art of motorcycling.
I definitely agree its not enough. I thought when I took the course that I would be more proficient than I was. In some countries they require different classes/licenses for the size of engine you are riding which I think would be good.
Your right, MSF is a start but is not enough, the training your looking for is with ZARS at DCTC. Don't be afraid, just do it. ZARS is for everyone, not just fast people/racers. We see lots of baggers, cruisers, adventure bikes, etc.. at the track. Your training is your responsibility and is not addressed with government requirements.
@@ACECafeBikes If your in MN then strongly consider ZARS at DCTC, (dakota county tech school) in Rosemont. Its not dangerous and you will learn a lot. We have all kinds of people riding all kinds of bikes, don't feel like you have to be the fast guy dragging knee to join, that's for people who take it to the next level. Levels 1-3 are for street riders mostly, anything above that gets into racing.
Yes MSF course is good and everyone should take one before riding. Is there more advance training? ABSOLUTELY, but doesn't mean the basic MSF courses aren't helpful for new riders.
Thanks Eric - we did or we will. I made it over to the DMV yesterday and was able to get my endoresment - I'm sure that my sister and brother-in-law will be doing the same. I hope that this wasnt offensive to you, I feel like the system is more broken than the class.
Its a basic riding course. Its the first of several classes they offer. I believe Advanced Riding course is next... Most states dont require any classes to drive or ride a motorcycle. On both you just have to pass a written test for your permit then a driving test for for the license. Some states dont even have a driving test, its just a written one. Now you admit that you didn't take the class for 8 years. I have to ask why it took you that long? Would making it harder have made you do it sooner or would you have never done it? Would making it harder make less people take the class or more? Think about this. Most motorcyclists today have never taken a class. A large percentage dont even have a permit. Europe has those requirements you ask for. Getting a motorcycle license is cost prohibitive to a lot of people there. Your not getting one working minimum wage. They spend more on getting a full license than I have ever spent on an actual motorcycle. So you have to ask if any new hoop actually makes people safer or just makes more criminals.
Thanks so much for your comment and I apologize for the delay in replying. I have no issues with the class other than that it should be required before you can get the permit. I dont think that its safe enough to have someone read a book, take a written test, and give them the ability to ride a motorcycle without ever being on a motorcycle. We dont do this with any other mode of transportation that I can think of, cars, planes, trains, fork trucks - all require physical training, prior to accreditation. For me - I took this class when I was 16 - been riding motorcycles for years and love it. When we moved to MN I didnt have a motorcycle at the time so I didnt have that transfer over. I think my ability is average - but taking the class for someone over 18 also credits a riding examination. Most the bikes that I own are classics, big, and even modified. I could have taken a riding test at any time and I would have been fully licensed rider. In a way I think it was a way to see what was being taught in the training and the ability to complete the course on a smaller bike. Going into the course I wasnt sure what to expect - after the course I believe it was a great experience for a low to no skill rider and yes I completely understand there are more classes that one can take to continue their training. I do appreciate your time watching and commenting on this video.
Hi Mike, glad you took the course and had a good experience there! I have been a MSF certified rider coach since 2018, averaging about 9 classes a season. The course is set up to develop basic understanding of a motorcycle and to expose students to some basic skills in preperation for them riding on their own. Throughout the class I tell students, "here it's lines and cones, out there your in the wrong lane and there are cars there!" I always let them know that they are riding in a parking lot at parking lot speeds and once they start riding on the road it's a whole new ballgame! I emphasize the lifesaving skills like the quick stop and the swerve and tell them to practice those on their own bike, along with ALL the other skills we worked on throughout the course.
The states approve the final evaluation process and we are evaluators at that point. I have seen good riders fail and bad riders pass, but at that point my job is to evaluate the skills that they can demonstrate, not judge if they are a good/bad rider. It's a tough one to live with sometimes!
I agree with a tiered licensing system for sure, I don't believe a beginner should be able to go out and hop on a sport bike, they need to develop some skills before doing that, and I tell my students that as well.
Thanks for the topic and your time!
Jeff
Hey Jeff, I was hoping that you would see this one. I hope you took no offensive to this. I did learn some things, which was the hope and I did pass - so I'm able to get my license. So job done. We had one stand out that I would not have passed if I was teaching the course, but I wasn't teaching the class so, perhaps they could see something that I didn't. I think this would be hard to teach and even harder to tell someone, no. But, we move on. I don't think the criteria will ever change, even though maybe it should. Thanks for watching 💪👍😉🤙
I took the Harley course. Best $400 I've ever spent. We had to have a permit to take it, I think....It was 10 years ago ish. I learned a lot in the course, but the most important thing I learned was how much I didn't know and it caused me to be more cautious even while in a car. I wouldn't advocate for a more difficult motorcycle licensing process, because I think even less people would jump through the hoops to get it. I would be mad if the US adopted a European model of stepped licenses. I get what you are saying but I don't believe the state can legislate out dumb dumbs. I've met people with no license that can flat ride and people that have a license that shouldn't be around a motor vehicle. Good video. Thought provoking for sure. Keep up the good work.
I think that was the premise of this class as well. It really did a good job of going through the basics on how to become more familiar with how things behave on a motorcycle and then repetition was key after that until you became comfortable enough to move on to something more. I did learn some things in the class well.
I agree - I don't think that we'll ever adopt a new procedure, but as we were discussing this I think, I hope, I made a valid point that driver's education for cars is much more in-depth. The explanation I have for this is pure volume. There are considerably more people who will drive a car versus ride a motorcycle.
@@ACECafeBikes point well made. I agree. Respecting the machine is important and goes a long way toward safety too…..anything from a lawnmower to a motorcycle.
Interesting to hear the USA ways of motorcycle licence. In the UK where I am, you have to complete a CBT test (compulsory basic training) first to be able to ride on the road on a learners licence, or a full car licence if you have one. This test is a day course that is usually split into morning training of manoeuvres and braking skills and the afternoon on public roads with instructors if you have been able to show basic competence of motorcycle control during the morning. Enjoy your channel, look forward to more uploads. Cheers👍🔧
Sorry forgot to say, restricted to 50cc at 16 years old, 125cc at 17 years old. Then you can move onto a full motorcycle licence through further training after.
Thank you for commenting - it does sound like you have a better system than we do. Glad to hear that you enjoy the channel
Fantastic - obviously since I am not 16 or 17 - but I do like this plan ;)
Here in Ohio a permit is pretty much the same, take the written test, no passengers, helmet, eye protection and no night riding. Back in the 80s I road around for a couple of years on my BILs extra bike. My ex nagged my to quit and like a D-A I did it. Fast forward to 2023 and I'm getting back onto bikes and I take a MSF to get my license. I was a little disappointed in the class but they told you up front that after that class you should take another couple classes. I will say, they did do a good job on the slow speed issues that I never learned back in the day. All in all I say the MSF was worth my time and money.
Thanks for shooting over a comment - great to hear from you and seeing how it differs from state to state. I thought the course was good for the same reasons. However, if I hadn't seen, what I considered a poor rider get passed through I think I would have a different perspective. After seeing that, it makes me believe that its more about providing information, collecting our money, and pushing you through. Perhaps if I hadn't seen that I wouldnt feel like this.
Thanks again for sharing
I think you are 100% correct - it is backwards. So proud of you for taking the expanded route and getting your license!
…yes…back to the wires 🤣
I think the best part was doing it with you and Jon
This is a great video and the issues you bring up need to be discussed because they are valid concerns for the safety of new motorcyclists. The Basic Rider Courses is just as the name implies, basic. In order to pass the course you must meet the minimum standards the state sets. You must pass a written test and a skills evaluation in order to pass the course.
In my opinion, this is a step up from passing a written test to get your permit and then jumping on a bike to figure it out on your own. I agree with you in regards to the course not necessarily getting a novice rider 100% ready for real world riding but those real world topics are covered in the classroom portion of the course here in Ohio were riding scenarios are presented and then discussed. It does get the student thinking more about a safe riding attitude than just riding and hoping it all works out fine. The premiss is that good judgement is essential to safe motorcycling and not good skills alone. You need both and that is what the Basic Rider Course in Ohio offers. The mental and the physical aspects of motorcycling.
Yes I agree with you, I think the process of getting a permit should involve training prior to obtaining a permit and putting wheels in motion but that is a legislative issue not a Basic Riders Course issue. Perhaps you should take an Advanced Rider course on your own bike or even consider becoming an instructor yourself. I feel you have a lot to offer to the riding community.
Thanks for chiming in. I may have glossed over the fact that we had 5 hours on an online course as well that had to be completed prior to the riding bit.
Honestly, I have thought about being a coach in the past. I really like motorcycles - I like the community, I like the feeling you get whilst riding, and for a long time I was a trainer and my current job. However, with that being said, I think that we can agree that this wouldn't change the process and you are correct, its not the course, its the legislation that has it backwards.
Thanks so much for stopping by - I appreciate your opinion and your kind words.
Mike
In Alaska from what I’ve heard from someone involved with the MSC is that you can do it either way, permit before or after the course. I did send an email and I have no clue if it was an instructor or just someone in the Harley shop though. I think that’s a pretty solid way of doing things. I’m also don’t have my license or anything yet but I find the difference interesting
It is interesting finding out how other states do this. That seems odd as well, that this process is not standardized. Thanks for watching
Glad you took the course! I think our system is a compromise between no training and what the Europeans do, with graduated licensing. There is definitely room for improvement, but it's incumbent upon the individual to seek out the extra training and practice to get better. I think the motorcycle licensing requirements are geared towards people who already have a car license, so they know the rules of the road and how to maneuver a car in traffic. The bike courses are to teach you safe operation of a motorcycle in some or most of the conditions you'll face out on the road, but in the controlled environment of the course. I remember when we were doing the driving portion of our car license class - we had 3 students and 1 instructor, and we'd all take turns. You can't do THAT on a bike, so the cost and complexity of the course would be prohibitive.
At the end of the day, it's up to US as motorcyclists to practice, take classes, and get better at the art of motorcycling.
Well said John
How come you never just took the test at the dmv or is it easier just to do the course.
I figured it would be easier to on the little bikes and I wanted to see if I would learn anything from the course. 👍💪
I definitely agree its not enough. I thought when I took the course that I would be more proficient than I was. In some countries they require different classes/licenses for the size of engine you are riding which I think would be good.
Right, could be better :)
I took the course because at the end you could take the license test. This was 30 years ago in Maryland.
This is the exact reason that I took the class. Wont have to take it again. Thanks for watching and commenting
Your right, MSF is a start but is not enough, the training your looking for is with ZARS at DCTC. Don't be afraid, just do it. ZARS is for everyone, not just fast people/racers. We see lots of baggers, cruisers, adventure bikes, etc.. at the track. Your training is your responsibility and is not addressed with government requirements.
Thanks for the advice - I have never done a track day - this looks interesting. Thanks so much
@@ACECafeBikes If your in MN then strongly consider ZARS at DCTC, (dakota county tech school) in Rosemont. Its not dangerous and you will learn a lot. We have all kinds of people riding all kinds of bikes, don't feel like you have to be the fast guy dragging knee to join, that's for people who take it to the next level. Levels 1-3 are for street riders mostly, anything above that gets into racing.
👍. Not sure about Florida but Illinois you have to ride next to someone with a license if you have a permit
Makes sense, seems a little better
Whats the guy beside you suppose to be doing besides putting himself in danger of being hit by the new rider? Ya cant help him ride.
Yes MSF course is good and everyone should take one before riding. Is there more advance training? ABSOLUTELY, but doesn't mean the basic MSF courses aren't helpful for new riders.
Absolutely, thanks!!
Well, despite the outcome, i hope all of you get your motorcycle license endorsement.
Thanks Eric - we did or we will. I made it over to the DMV yesterday and was able to get my endoresment - I'm sure that my sister and brother-in-law will be doing the same. I hope that this wasnt offensive to you, I feel like the system is more broken than the class.
Its a basic riding course. Its the first of several classes they offer. I believe Advanced Riding course is next...
Most states dont require any classes to drive or ride a motorcycle. On both you just have to pass a written test for your permit then a driving test for for the license. Some states dont even have a driving test, its just a written one.
Now you admit that you didn't take the class for 8 years. I have to ask why it took you that long? Would making it harder have made you do it sooner or would you have never done it? Would making it harder make less people take the class or more? Think about this. Most motorcyclists today have never taken a class. A large percentage dont even have a permit.
Europe has those requirements you ask for. Getting a motorcycle license is cost prohibitive to a lot of people there. Your not getting one working minimum wage. They spend more on getting a full license than I have ever spent on an actual motorcycle. So you have to ask if any new hoop actually makes people safer or just makes more criminals.
Thanks so much for your comment and I apologize for the delay in replying. I have no issues with the class other than that it should be required before you can get the permit. I dont think that its safe enough to have someone read a book, take a written test, and give them the ability to ride a motorcycle without ever being on a motorcycle. We dont do this with any other mode of transportation that I can think of, cars, planes, trains, fork trucks - all require physical training, prior to accreditation.
For me - I took this class when I was 16 - been riding motorcycles for years and love it. When we moved to MN I didnt have a motorcycle at the time so I didnt have that transfer over. I think my ability is average - but taking the class for someone over 18 also credits a riding examination. Most the bikes that I own are classics, big, and even modified. I could have taken a riding test at any time and I would have been fully licensed rider. In a way I think it was a way to see what was being taught in the training and the ability to complete the course on a smaller bike.
Going into the course I wasnt sure what to expect - after the course I believe it was a great experience for a low to no skill rider and yes I completely understand there are more classes that one can take to continue their training.
I do appreciate your time watching and commenting on this video.