I think the saturated colors of Bob-omb battlefield make it feel like a battlefield. There is a war going on after all, they tend to look dead and dull due to the destruction.
Whomp's Fortress is supposed to be a beginner level as the 2nd Course accessed with only 1 Star so the new area making things easier for new players makes sense. Keep in mind that a chunk of players only just beat Big Bobomb as Yoshi. I admit it feels weird not having the grassy back area in the original game after owning 64ds for 19 Years.
The DS version doesn't have the third black ball after King Bob-omb is defeated. Not even after the rematch. King Bob-omb is a recurring character now, so I guess he survived in the Super Mario 64 DS timeline.
Is the third cannonball canonically (ha!) King bob-omb? Or is that just a fan theory lol. I've always heard it but I wasn't sure if it was a real thing
@@NintenDeen The theory comes from the fact that that a pink Bob-omb says that "King Bob-omb is nothing but a big dud now" and the third ball only appears from the 2nd star onwards, after his defeat.
I still have nostalgia for the N64 Thwomps. They're in other games too, such as Mario Kart 64 and Mario Party 1, 2, and 3. Whenever I see a remake of an N64 stage, but it uses _actual_ Thwomps instead of weird angry blue cubes, I feel a bit upset about it 😂
There was a solid 7 or 8 year gap where I hadn't returned to many N64 games starting from around 2000ish. A lot of my memories of 64 blurred with DS, one of those being the appearances of the Thwomps lol. I remember the whiplash when I got back into the N64 again after that time and started seeing them everywhere haha
@NintenDeen I basically grew up with the SNES and the N64 at the same time. My family had the SNES before I was born, with Super Mario All-Stars and Super Mario World. Then I got my N64 when I was 6. So I was familiar enough with regular thwomps, and just assumed the blue things were what "3D thwomps" looked like. It was more of a shock to me later when I played more modern games (like Mario Kart Wii) and I saw 3D regular thwomps that actually look like thwomps XD
Regular thwomps have spikes on them meaning you should be hurt if you touch them contrary to the blue ones that are mades to be walkable on. I think both version should be used depending that rule.
I also don’t mind Luigi breaking this stage because he isn’t unlocked yet. And this early on most people are probably going to get most stars before they get Luigi. Also unlocking Luigi is way more challenging then getting these stars as well
Interesting, I for one really like the DS Whomp's fortress almost because of all the reasons you dislike it -- the platforming has less immediate risk involved, but the act of actually going back up and trying again probably wouldn't take that much less time than dying and respawning, especially for brand new players
There's a general simplicity to 64DS due to the maps, added platforms etc that I think make this game MUCH more accessible, but also don't entirely remove the challenge from the N64. I've kinda touched on it in a few moments but I'm waiting to get through all of the stages to have a concluding discussion on that since I want to see how prevalent it is throughout the entire game. My theory is part of the reason the DS controls aren't as hated by DS fans is because these added crutches (albeit, minor in most cases) offset that control risk while the player is getting better
@@FleechinFyi, the circle pad still only lets you move in 8 directions just like the dpad, the only to actually emulate a joystick is with touch screen controls
I liked the Yoshi fight against King Bob. And I think pointing players to where the red coins and red coin Star spawn will be is fine; it gets new players curious and gives them an “ah-ha!” moment when they do make it to the red coin challenge. Whomp’s fortress having that extra area is I think fine enough because it’s still only the second level. It *has * a bottomless pit, but you’re not randomly punished with a loss of life.
Given the fact that you will need to visit the place one more time than the OG, giving a slightly easier to traverse bottom layout is not a bad idea at all. I guess they also tried to compensate some for kids trying to get used to the new movement system. Now, the important thing to see is whether this overcompensating pattern sustains through other stages
You're not wrong, it's the reason I like the added star down there and the added red coin too. But I think the new section takes away from the overall experience (even if it's just a little bit)
My gripe about the additional platforms in Whomp’s Fortress is that they didn’t remove the existing fences on adjacent platform edges which you have to jump over now. These additions don’t feel properly integrated into the stage because of things like that.
Yeah it's like they took the base model and just slapped a 3D printed block on the side of it lol. I kinda like that it sticks out only because it's very easy to see where the addition was between the 2 games, so when I went from 64 to DS it was clearly a whole new section. But aside from that it should've been more seamless.
Luigi's backflip doesn't break BOB, but his invisibility power up does break the Chain Chomp star. However, considering this is early in the game and the intended way isn't that hard, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things
I'd personally consider Luigi being able to use the invisible cap an added bonus to that star lol. Makes the challenge more interesting. But I also think most ppl will grab the star before unlocking Luigi anyway
To give you a perspective that you probably haven't considered: The inclusion of the map on a star like "blast away the wall" might as you say ruin the puzzle. But you need to keep in mind that the ds and the n64 were targeting different audiences and a huge number of people that play the ds version are kids that don't even know english (as i was when i first played it). Same with something like "pyramid puzzle". So the title of the stars means nothing to them and the minimap is exclusively making the stars possible to grab
Given that this game includes even more text boxes than the original, I don't really think that it was specifically targeted towards kids who don't know English. Although the DS version might indeed be more accessible to them due to the inclusion of the map.
I never got blast away the wall, snowman's missing head, or even the wing cap until years later when I revisited the game and had to search the solutions up online
Never owned a DS or played this, but I loved the OG 64 version. And I agree with your analysis. It seems like Womp's fortress on DS was just dumbed down a little bit too much.
I didn't like the color change in Bob-omb Battlefield either but I'm thinking it might have been done to fit the theme of the level better - it's a battlefield, so it's more likely that the grass will be a dullish yellow as opposed to a vibrant, healthy green. I also wonder if they made the change to differentiate the grass color from other stages like Tiny Huge Island.
You think that extra ground was put in as a safety net? I was under the impression that it was there purely to host the switch star. Also, it's still hilariously easy to ring out even with that little ledge -- if I'm going off the fortress, I'm definitely falling further out than that.
When a players slides off the sloped side of the fortress they're landing in that new area. It's obviously not ALWAYS going to work, but it works a ton
Bob-Omb Battlefield's new look almost comes off as a seasonal change to me. Like, the 64 version is summer, the DS version seems like the stage in springtime.
As a kid I never figured out the "blast away the wall" mission in whomp's fortress. How the heck were you supposed to figure out you can shoot yourself against a random bit of level geometry? I mean the whole stage is made of walls. Why would that one corner be suspicious compared to everything else?
I'm pretty sure they showed blast away the wall on a commercial lol. After that it was all word of mouth, or if you were lucky you knew someone that had a strategy guide
I’m curious to know why previous Nintendo systems have real transparency whereas the Switch shows “transparent” objects as dots. It’s always bugged me!
@@NintenDeen I see! Thanks for your response, and thank you for your great, in-depth videos. Yeah, while I'm sure it was a compromise of some kind, it seems like an important aspect of gaming to go "backwards" on.
I think the saturated colors of Bob-omb battlefield make it feel like a battlefield. There is a war going on after all, they tend to look dead and dull due to the destruction.
That's an interesting take. I've actually never heard that view, I've barely even heard anyone say they like the aesthetic haha
Wow, you really are going through it all, huh?
Yes, Debbie!
Whomp's Fortress is supposed to be a beginner level as the 2nd Course accessed with only 1 Star so the new area making things easier for new players makes sense. Keep in mind that a chunk of players only just beat Big Bobomb as Yoshi. I admit it feels weird not having the grassy back area in the original game after owning 64ds for 19 Years.
Okay maybe I was a bit wrong about some of my opionions on visuals, the battlefield is more desaturated than I remember lol
A cloooooon...
This was my first mario, and I would still try to get to the island in the sky before unlocking the wing cap, rest asured
The DS version doesn't have the third black ball after King Bob-omb is defeated. Not even after the rematch.
King Bob-omb is a recurring character now, so I guess he survived in the Super Mario 64 DS timeline.
Is the third cannonball canonically (ha!) King bob-omb? Or is that just a fan theory lol. I've always heard it but I wasn't sure if it was a real thing
@@NintenDeen The theory comes from the fact that that a pink Bob-omb says that "King Bob-omb is nothing but a big dud now" and the third ball only appears from the 2nd star onwards, after his defeat.
TIL!
I still have nostalgia for the N64 Thwomps. They're in other games too, such as Mario Kart 64 and Mario Party 1, 2, and 3. Whenever I see a remake of an N64 stage, but it uses _actual_ Thwomps instead of weird angry blue cubes, I feel a bit upset about it 😂
There was a solid 7 or 8 year gap where I hadn't returned to many N64 games starting from around 2000ish. A lot of my memories of 64 blurred with DS, one of those being the appearances of the Thwomps lol. I remember the whiplash when I got back into the N64 again after that time and started seeing them everywhere haha
@NintenDeen I basically grew up with the SNES and the N64 at the same time. My family had the SNES before I was born, with Super Mario All-Stars and Super Mario World. Then I got my N64 when I was 6. So I was familiar enough with regular thwomps, and just assumed the blue things were what "3D thwomps" looked like. It was more of a shock to me later when I played more modern games (like Mario Kart Wii) and I saw 3D regular thwomps that actually look like thwomps XD
Mario party advance has n64 thwomps too for some reason (and a few other n64 enemies)
Regular thwomps have spikes on them meaning you should be hurt if you touch them contrary to the blue ones that are mades to be walkable on. I think both version should be used depending that rule.
I also don’t mind Luigi breaking this stage because he isn’t unlocked yet.
And this early on most people are probably going to get most stars before they get Luigi.
Also unlocking Luigi is way more challenging then getting these stars as well
Interesting, I for one really like the DS Whomp's fortress almost because of all the reasons you dislike it -- the platforming has less immediate risk involved, but the act of actually going back up and trying again probably wouldn't take that much less time than dying and respawning, especially for brand new players
There's a general simplicity to 64DS due to the maps, added platforms etc that I think make this game MUCH more accessible, but also don't entirely remove the challenge from the N64. I've kinda touched on it in a few moments but I'm waiting to get through all of the stages to have a concluding discussion on that since I want to see how prevalent it is throughout the entire game.
My theory is part of the reason the DS controls aren't as hated by DS fans is because these added crutches (albeit, minor in most cases) offset that control risk while the player is getting better
@@NintenDeen I think your theory is right -- also I wonder how many people played 64DS on the 3DS with its circle pad that emulates a joystick
@@FleechinFyi, the circle pad still only lets you move in 8 directions just like the dpad, the only to actually emulate a joystick is with touch screen controls
@cash-onlycaveman6637 that's true, but even the feeling of a circle pad makes it a lot easier to control than it otherwise would be
@@Fleechin true
I liked the Yoshi fight against King Bob. And I think pointing players to where the red coins and red coin Star spawn will be is fine; it gets new players curious and gives them an “ah-ha!” moment when they do make it to the red coin challenge.
Whomp’s fortress having that extra area is I think fine enough because it’s still only the second level. It *has * a bottomless pit, but you’re not randomly punished with a loss of life.
Given the fact that you will need to visit the place one more time than the OG, giving a slightly easier to traverse bottom layout is not a bad idea at all. I guess they also tried to compensate some for kids trying to get used to the new movement system. Now, the important thing to see is whether this overcompensating pattern sustains through other stages
You're not wrong, it's the reason I like the added star down there and the added red coin too. But I think the new section takes away from the overall experience (even if it's just a little bit)
My gripe about the additional platforms in Whomp’s Fortress is that they didn’t remove the existing fences on adjacent platform edges which you have to jump over now. These additions don’t feel properly integrated into the stage because of things like that.
Yeah it's like they took the base model and just slapped a 3D printed block on the side of it lol.
I kinda like that it sticks out only because it's very easy to see where the addition was between the 2 games, so when I went from 64 to DS it was clearly a whole new section. But aside from that it should've been more seamless.
Luigi's backflip doesn't break BOB, but his invisibility power up does break the Chain Chomp star. However, considering this is early in the game and the intended way isn't that hard, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things
I'd personally consider Luigi being able to use the invisible cap an added bonus to that star lol. Makes the challenge more interesting. But I also think most ppl will grab the star before unlocking Luigi anyway
I guess that the Thwomps in 64 was modeled after the Thwomps in Smb 3, Minus the spikes.
To give you a perspective that you probably haven't considered:
The inclusion of the map on a star like "blast away the wall" might as you say ruin the puzzle. But you need to keep in mind that the ds and the n64 were targeting different audiences and a huge number of people that play the ds version are kids that don't even know english (as i was when i first played it). Same with something like "pyramid puzzle". So the title of the stars means nothing to them and the minimap is exclusively making the stars possible to grab
Given that this game includes even more text boxes than the original, I don't really think that it was specifically targeted towards kids who don't know English. Although the DS version might indeed be more accessible to them due to the inclusion of the map.
So your country didnt translate the Game?
@ledanoir1239 my country isn't very big so no
@smilefacebird2028 ds Era nintendo would target kids more than n64 Era nintendo
I never got blast away the wall, snowman's missing head, or even the wing cap until years later when I revisited the game and had to search the solutions up online
Never owned a DS or played this, but I loved the OG 64 version. And I agree with your analysis. It seems like Womp's fortress on DS was just dumbed down a little bit too much.
I would've liked the original grass color but I'm happy with the other visual updates like the texture for the sides of the ground.
I didn't like the color change in Bob-omb Battlefield either but I'm thinking it might have been done to fit the theme of the level better - it's a battlefield, so it's more likely that the grass will be a dullish yellow as opposed to a vibrant, healthy green. I also wonder if they made the change to differentiate the grass color from other stages like Tiny Huge Island.
Here we go again!
One thing that really irks me about Bomb-Omb Battlefield in the DS remake is how muted the colors are, particularly the grass.
You think that extra ground was put in as a safety net? I was under the impression that it was there purely to host the switch star. Also, it's still hilariously easy to ring out even with that little ledge -- if I'm going off the fortress, I'm definitely falling further out than that.
When a players slides off the sloped side of the fortress they're landing in that new area. It's obviously not ALWAYS going to work, but it works a ton
2:59 - isn’t that a warp? Or is that the other flower bed?
It is (or close enough) but I don't really value that warp as it hardly helps during any missions outside of 100-coin collections
Bob-Omb Battlefield's new look almost comes off as a seasonal change to me. Like, the 64 version is summer, the DS version seems like the stage in springtime.
Yeah it has that "just got out from melted snow" grass look to it lol
I'm sure that luigis swim speed will make swimming less of a pain for jolly roger bay.
(granted i dont care much for the stage or the music.)
As a kid I never figured out the "blast away the wall" mission in whomp's fortress.
How the heck were you supposed to figure out you can shoot yourself against a random bit of level geometry?
I mean the whole stage is made of walls. Why would that one corner be suspicious compared to everything else?
I'm pretty sure they showed blast away the wall on a commercial lol. After that it was all word of mouth, or if you were lucky you knew someone that had a strategy guide
@NintenDeen A commercial?
That's not game design, that's an ARG. 🤣
Here's hoping Nintendo announce another mario 64 remake soon so you'll have more videos to make
While that would be awesome, I'll always have more video ideas 😂
I was always confused as to whether those were supposed to be separate versions of Thwomps...
AliExpress Thwomps
@NintenDeen I feel like I recall a time where both were used...
Bob-omb Battlefield looks like it got hit with that visual filter some games like to do instead of proper lighting and visual design.
I’m curious to know why previous Nintendo systems have real transparency whereas the Switch shows “transparent” objects as dots. It’s always bugged me!
Something to do with the anisotropic filtering. Not exactly sure why, but I remember seeing that same question one time on Reddit lol
@@NintenDeen I see! Thanks for your response, and thank you for your great, in-depth videos. Yeah, while I'm sure it was a compromise of some kind, it seems like an important aspect of gaming to go "backwards" on.
Man, that frame rate. I know M64 isn't great, but the frame rate here is so unstable.