agreed. A card being auto include does not make it ban worthy if it doesn't warp the format at all. Cards like low cost tutors, for example, completely change the format and make combo way better than it should be.
Flash makes sense over Hulk because it was a cEDH-specific ban. The combo itself is not super popular outside of cEDH, and in casual commander, Hulk sees more play. So banning Flash makes the cEDH community happy while minimizing the impact on the rest of the format.
wanted to comment this, leaving protein hulk unbanned was a gift to casual players since they like to play it manually. Flash was getting degenerate with thassa's oracle making the combo more consistent and harder to stop. That's why people wanted to ban flash specifically since it wouldn't affect casual play.
I think insane combo cards like flash and tinker that wind up banned in legacy or restricted in vintage have a pretty solid argument for getting banned in commander because they represent play patterns that wizards doesn't want to be a part of their game as a whole even at high levels of play
Flash died for the sins of Thassa's Oracle, not because of Hulk. Turns out, flashing Thoracle was harder for your opponents to interact, and Hulk saw some play on lower power EDH games, so the RC banned the card that only saw play on cEDH.
The reason they don't ban the best mana rocks is: Green. Green as a color identity is already too powerful to let it have a monopoly of the best ramping options.
@@Alessandro-mg9oh yeah, as well as other one mana ramp cards. And can easily have enough redundancy to ramp from turn one, consistently in a 99-singleton format. And if you go into other mana values,… even more ramp. The rest of the colors, don’t have that many options for ramping, only rocks. Ramp is such a powerful thing to do in the format to just have one color doing it consistently. The other colors need them to be able to catch up with green.
@@moralessanchezoscarelias6412 Sol Ring isn’t staying unbanned because of green. It’s because Wizards doesn’t want a precon (or in this case, all precons) to immediately be unplayable. However I do think that at least Sol Ring and Crypt are bad for the casual format, just like the cheap black tutors. I’m not gonna not play them because they are good (instead price would be why on just Crypt), but I wouldn’t revolt if I have to use Worn Powerstone and Letter Of Acceptance over Sol Ring and Arcane Signet.
Tinker is insanely too powerful, guys. Think about it...instant speed tutor that cheats mana cost in blue. It's an answer, a win con, and there is no comparison in any other color.
@@Someone-lg6di those aren't on the same level. Remember - Tinker costs 3 mana. Forgemaster is 5 mana plus needing 3 things to sac and you need to either wait a turn or grant it haste to activate. Planar bridge is 14 mana to do it all in 1 turn.
Flash is and will continue to be the problematic 2 mana instant enabler for all the LTB creatures they will print. Flash is the correct choice, because it will be broken with something else at some point.
I don't believe in deck diversity bans. Imo, "deck diversity" as a balancing concept is something that should purely be moderated by your personal playgroup and not something imposed on everyone.
Emrakul is incredibly hard to interact with and it can be cheated out easily if it's in the deck. If it's in the command zone the game devolves into arch enemy just to stop it from getting on board
@@jeffnorris211 Ah the words of a person that has never been forced to sacrifice 6 permanents and have no answers to the monstrosity that is Emrakul. I find it cute when casual players think something super oppressive is fun, because one day they'll play against it and immediately go "what the fuck is this"
So by wanting to ban the fast Mana rocks, you're essentially saying that you'd like green, which is already the strongest color due to its ability to ramp efficiently combined with the social contract's taboo on mass land destruction, to far and away dominate the format. The other colors, especially red and white, need those rocks to keep up.
I agree, people have been complaining about sol rings and Crypt for a long time just because they are autos and efficient but now talking about early rocks that color fix is just plain dumb. #LeaveTheManaRocksAlone
But you play sol ring and mana crypt in green desks too, because they are that good................ you're telling me you don't have sol ring and mana crypt in your green desks? I'll call you out on that one. has nothing to do with green being the best color. has to do with the power level of the card.
@@Djewell314 Gaea's is better in mono green / triabal / creature decks... this is problem. Its the same level on "power" in correct deck. Both can easy add 5-10 mana ... and problem with Gaeas is that green is super easy to have it in play every game becose of so many tutors for lands.... In blue/artifacts decks - most of time, you dont have so many options for tutor for Tolarian. You would need to add Green on Black to do it... Thisis why in my opinon Greas is more broken then Academy - and still both are ladnds that winds game, and both shoud be banned. On top of that - if you want now comptetive deck with green - 90% of time, you need to spend yours months salary for 1 card...
In a format where you are incentivated to play 4-5 colors, cards that rewards you for playing monocolor a truly like it, and i would love to see more in other colors. Not only i would not ban cabal coffers, i would make card in that diection in monocolors that need a bit of help. Equivalents for monowhite (like emeria), or monored (like valakut), i think are healthy for the format. Incentivating not only playing the more colors the more card pool you have for your strategy. Also, cards that limit you 30 cards in your deckbuilding in exchange for a powerful effect are called build arounds, and are good and cool, without so many tutors surely are balanced.
In my opinion at least I think the difference between coffers and the other lands you mention is that coffers makes games feel extremely same-y. On the first couple of turns you tutor up coffers then play it and ramp out big mana threats. I think it hurts deck diversity and gameplay diversity
@@NitpickingNerds The monoblack comanders are the LEAST unique comanders( stats taken in the episode 104 EDHRECast). All monoblack deck have nearly the same cards, and thats another problem, i think mainly because black can do anithing, and has only restictions in paying life. I would ban Urborg before coffers, becuse it makes coffest busted (mana profitable with less lands), and can be used in multicolor decks, removing the deck restiction. Having said that, i would put Obliterate, Apocalipse, staic orb, stasis drecree of anihilation or demonic consultation wayyy before cabal coffers or urborg.
Urborg is the real problem, with out it Coffers is mono black only. I feel like spot removal for lands is a must in any deck anyways. I would ban urborg first
Coffers is the problem. One land shouldn’t ramp that much, and if it does, it should be green. It’s a build around specifically because it’s incredibly powerful. A better idea would be to ban some of the expensive lands that cover your mana while coming in untapped. Make multicolor decks more likely to have lands come in tapped and this slower and it will make mono decks faster.
@@yoyepo91 If you limit yourself to just one color and lose all the versatility of a pool of cards 5 times more wide, cards like cofffers balance that exchange. Think of it as cards like niv mizzet Parum, in exchange os a very restrictive mana cost, you get an overstated creature. If the price of deck building is really high, the rewards should be equivalent.
@@robertmonroe1883 Or Flash / Academy Rector / tutor some game-ending ultra expensive and powerful late-game enchantment into play. With flash gone, you could maybe unban the extra turn Emrakul.
I was literally watching the original banlist episode yesterday, I wasn't done watching it, and when I tuned in this morning to watch it. The video was removed. Makes sense now.
I think an issue with just taking a bat to all the top tier tutors is then you’ve got the colors that specialize in massive card draw being able to steam roll a little more. Also Black for example has a lot of second string tutors that would fill those spots quickly while White has no replacement comparable to enlightened tutor.
Another thing, the tutors enable jank combo decks to perform at a casual level. I play like 6 tutors in my Atogatog combo deck and it still unperformed at most tables.
I am going to have to hard disagree with most of your takes on your additional bans. 1. The argument that if a card is an auto-include it should be auto-banned is completely arbitrary. The only time this is appropriate is if it is a one-sided advantage like Lutri. 2. You cannot hold that an auto-include such as Arcane Signet should be bannable while at the same time complain that wizards needs to have better mana rocks, like you do in other videos. Arcane Signet is not a problem at all. It is a playable version of Commander's Sphere without the cantrip. 3. If someone plays turn one Sol Ring, they immediately become a target for the whole table. I'd say thats balance. Don't ban the card, just play more politically. Commander is meant to be political. 4. Banning tutors is asinine. They exist to make combo decks possible in EDH. Imagine trying to find a single combo piece out of 100 cards vs. drawing one of four copies of it from a 60 card deck. The tutors literally even the odds at the cost of card disadvantage. There is absolutely nothing wrong with these. Plus there are plenty of cards in the format that punish tutoring. Ob Nixilis, Opposition Agent, etc
There are a couple of cards that you were considering un-banning, and I just wanted to point out a few things that you might have missed Erayo: hard locks the game, with several white cards that only let players cast one spell a turn. Flash: Arena Rector can also be flashed in, to go get omniscience. Gifts Ungiven: the trick here is to read the card carefully, if you only get 2 cards, both go to the graveyard, it can be used as a double entomb. Also there are several gifts piles that just win the game.
@@NitpickingNerds alot entomb is a tutor for graveyard decks my scion deck wins with just 1 creature in grave and mass revival or 2+. Scion mills bladewing then revive bladewing and scourge of vallas or terror of the peaks, instant win only pice commander doesnt tutor is the revival effect
I think y'all're underestimating Gifts Ungiven. I've never seen it resolve and the caster not win the game. If the deck is built properly, there are multiple combinations of four cards for which any choice one's opponent makes off Gifts will win one the game. It's another situation where the only thing that stops the win is countermagic, which is a skosh uncool outside CEDH.
I love gifts to death and still think it needs to stay banned. 4 cards is a lot and like you said, if the deck is built right it will win off of one search. But there is also the fact being that you don't even need to get 4 cards makes it even more powerful. Sometimes the issue with intuition is that the opponent chooses correctly and makes you jump through hoops to combo off. With gifts, you can just have 2 combo pieces put in the graveyard and win.
yeah, all you need is sevines reclamation lions eye diamond underworld breach and wheel of fortune. boom you win by filtering through your entire deck. if they give you a hand with sevine you bring back breach, If they don't give you sevine then you flashback sevine and grab breach. EZ
@@kitbroughton3421 A turn 2 Braids can come from a 2 lands and a Dark Ritual. So Dark Ritual should be banned because it allowed Braids to come out on turn 2?
@@hiddenleaf414 Dark Ritual is not a permanent the braids player could sac in desperation. Its a higher investment than a soul ring or something similar.
The best artifact for tinker to fetch out isn't blightsteel, its memory jar. The decks that would run tinker are likely cheerio decks like Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain. As a Jhoira player, i guarantee you that tinker would be used either to fetch out memory jar if my hand is bad, aetherflux reservoir if my hand was good, or something like nev disk or o-stone if the board needed to be wiped.
Also, "I want the format to be as fun as possible." Literally wants to ban all my favorite cards which provide consistency in my favorite format. I'm glad your banlist isn't the banlist or I would probably not be playing EDH, despite playing since 2013.
I could do without Food Chain. There is a guy in my playgroup that always just wins with it in his Prosh deck and it is very anticlimactic and just a feels bads!
Flash got banned over hulk because flash protected death triggers in a really unintuitive way that can't be interacted with once it begins to resolve. And I personally think its interaction with the mana tripler scared the RC.
No, from a casual perspective yes it seems strong but no. Protean hulk is still a win con, if you are playing hulk, you will have a hulk win line (in cEDH). In more casual games it’s just a big value engine but flash hulking into a mana tripler is not the best thing you could do with it. It’s cool but not it.
When I use tutors I normally get w.e is needed to deal with a problem but sometimes I do use them to help my board state. So is the episode just "no ramp no auto include"? Look I understand wanting to see different decks but come-on. Sol ring is fine. It's a 4+ player game. If someone gets a early game sol ring u have 3+ other people to put them in check.
Joe is 100% correct about Erayo, Beezy is 100% correct in pronouncing Protean Hulk (not Protein). You are both 100% correct about Sol Ring and Mana Crypt!
I love how an anecdote about events from the 90s, which inspired an UN card apparently made that the actual card ruling. You flip chaos orb, you drop falling star. Idk why apparently the "tear the card up" is apparently the cardtext. Neither should be banned because they're super goofy. Again I guess this goes with Rule 0.
Dexterity cards are bed for black border magic because the game should be playable by anyone who can read, regardless of their physical abilities. Dexterity cards unfairly penalize people with differently abled bodies.
I was really looking forward to this video. I've been thinking a lot about the CMDR ban list recently and I appreciate hearing your guys opinions on it. However, I don't think command tower or arcane signet deserve a ban.
@@NitpickingNerds I believe they're really helpful for players who want to play multiple colors and can't get a hold of more expensive untapped lands to get good color fixing, they also don't break the game from a power level perspective like sol ring and mana crypt. So I see them as a positive in the format even if they do homogenize it.
I loved your take on Hulk and it’s great that both of you have very differing opinions. Great video as always. Few channels I will sit down and watch an hour long video. Keep up the good work and stay safe.
Hey, I love your content but I wanted to clarify that Chaos Orb doesn't require that you rip it into pieces. I believe you're confusing it with Chaos Confetti. A lot of us used to run multiple Chaos Orbs in every deck back in 93/early 94 and it was probably the most powerful card in MtG at that point. Basically it's a three-colorless-mana artifact with "destroy between one and five target permanents" that you can recur (e.g. Archaeologist, Reconstruction, etc.). It was particularly devastating in land destruction decks of that era. The DCI banned it right away because of its power level and also for the ridiculous impact it had in tournament play, as people would literally tape their cards to the walls to nullify the effects of Chaos Orb. Realistically it should probably stay banned in EDH but it's still my all-time favorite card. Cheers.
I once had Cyclonic Rift into only one deck. A few months ago, the spike in me realized that this card was an auto include in all blue decks, so I put it in all my decks. Thanks to you, you made me remember why I only put it into my most competitive deck. I just removed it from every other blue decks and I feel better !
the only argument i make for keeping sol ring in the format is that it can be a great top deck for someone struggling to hit enough land drops to stay competitive
@@Tracker947 not only that, but it goes in literally every deck. Nobody is missing out on playing it so I don’t see why it would be banned. Why ban something that helps other colors than green get their ramp going?
Uncounterable, flying 15/15 with Protection from Colored Spells and everytime it swings defending player must sacrifice 6 permanents. Nope, cant see how taking an extra turn and having a 15/15 uncounterable creature that has protection from colored spells can be broken in a commander format overrun with mana rocks, infinite mana loops and other ridiculous enchantments/artifacts to make emrakul invincible
Heh, hate Protean Hulk. It was the obvious ban when the Thassa's Oracle/Flash debacle was a thing. The card has always been a problem, and we could've been done with it for good. I agree with the banning of the top tier tutors for sure. If I remember correctly the reason Gifts Ungiven was banned is that it became an unwinnable situation every time it was cast. The player would search for their four win conditions, at instant speed, and it was game over. No matter how the piles were separated they were probably going to win. And as we know even if two cards get dumped into the graveyard that doesn't mean a whole lot these days. XD great video guys, and it was some nice insight (:
The ban list altogether is fairly problematic, as LITERALLY anything one (or two, three, four...) card(s) can do, there is a bunch of other cards that do the same (or worse). Its hard to justify anything being banned with all the cards that aren't, and we certainly can't go back through and ban every card that can win games. Lots of slippery slope argument space here. I mean, I think a shit load of cards should be banned, but its hard to justify them in comparison to other cards sometimes.
a lot of card are banned as a representative for certain strategies the RC thinks are unfun. and they arent banning for powerlevel-reasons. thats not my opinion btw, just the reasoning behind the bans (or cards not being banned while others are)
@@dino-wer-kuh3498 I mean, yes, that's correct; but frankly, it is the power level of those strategies that is the core of the issue 9 times out of 10. Too OP = less fun ≤ ban hammer(?) (And if your/their statement was 100% true, land destruction would be banned outright, in all forms j/k lol)
@@workyoutube7798 yeah, the list is pretty arbitrary. thats the cost of banning on subjective feelings than objective powerlevel. but its a cost im willing to pay, bcs it keeps the nature of EDH casual at heart. i still disagree with a bunch of their choices though, but in the end im fine with it
I play coalition victory in my sisay weatherlight deck. If I ever win with this card I'm gonna freak out, since it is a full flavour deck with each card referencing the weatherlight story. So no dual lands, no feches, not much ramp outside of the pieces of ramos, so I have to have one of each basic land and at least 3 creatures out to win with it. I just love it.
strong budget cards like sol ring, that feel realy good wehn you get it in your opening hand may be problematic but in a 4player game this is less of an issue since it encourages teamwork to catch up and politics are some of the most fun things about this game. mana crypt is worse since its less accessible. arcane signet and command tower on the other hand should definately stay. the most restricting thing about building decks on a budget is the manabase and those two cards help fix that a little. its two cards in 100 everyone runs but i dont think this is a problem when it comes to lands and mana rocks. those things mostely do the same thing and having those vs. a new cycle of duals or rocks doenst make much of a difference imo.
Magic is so interesting in so many levels: I'm (usually) a Modern player, and I'm trying to learn and play commander for the past 2 months. To do so, I'm consuming a lot of content - gameplay, reviews, tier lists - and I can definitely say that the layers in EDH (and magic in general) are so deep. So many cards you've mentioned here I'd think are just "meh" with a "modern player mentality", but after playing for a little bit or watching some gameplay videos, I believe those cards to be very strong and such a potential for great powers to be unleashed. However, you guys have something I'm yet to achieve in EDH: experience. The point of view on each card that you've mentioned, to preserve the fun in the meta is such an important reason to consider (un)banning cards, and that can only be achieved with such experience. Great Job!
@@NitpickingNerds it was deeply sincere. I learn a lot from your tier list (probably my favorite content of yours). It is so much fun and elucidating, because there are so many cards with consistent comments from you guys per video that the knowledge just grows exponential. Thanks again ♡ PS: I'd Love to see you talk more about deck techs and combos in EDH. My deck nowadays is Zur, but not Stax (Solemnity+9Lives & Necropotence+SolitaryConfinement, etc.). PS2: I'm building a K'rrik deck (because of Post Malone's Secret Lair). I know you guys did a video about K'rrik, but any chance you guys talk about it again?^^
Wheel is more easily replaced though. Red has at least two other wheel effects which are arguably better and far less expensive. Magus is fired at instant speed, allowing you to mess with decks that try to set up their hands and Wheel of Fate gives you a couple turns to drop your hand and does it on your upkeep, giving you a hand of eight cards that turn. Even Memory Jar is less destructive on your wallet, and that is almost a strict upgrade. Blue's wheels, on the other hand, tend to be more expense or not actually draw seven cards and Twister resets graveyards. This makes Twister more difficult to replace (and it's replacements have a habit of getting banned).
I really think the commander community can be reasonably separated into two groups. People who want to play good magic cards, and people who want to play mediocre magic cards. The problem being that the people who like playing good cards tend not to care what everyone else plays, and the people who want to play mediocre cards want everyone else to do so.
Having played casual EDH games with competitive people, I 100% agree on the Tier 1 tutor bans. Every game they don't win right away feels like they're just letting it drag on out of pity because everyone else at the table spent less money on cards than they have. It's also the reason I built and Ob Nixilis, Unshackled deck. I am a horrible person in the name of fun.
Banlist is such a hard topic. It's so hard to please everyone and keep it consistent with philosophy. I think Banlist should not be like a hard ban, but being a suggestion. If player have a cEDH deck he wouldn't play it against some budget player. Most of players sits down with friends, so rule 0 solves that part. If he(or she) is an asshole, you either don't play with him or play archenemy, whatever you're prefer.
@@NitpickingNerds yeah, I assume that probably won't work with cEDH, but there's always will be a top teir deck(s), so make different banlist is not an option, then there will be cEDH, some semi-competitive EDH and casual commander. So again, this is hard as hell to please everyone
Commander should be open to all cards except those that absolutely break it. That is one of the main reasons commander is fun, its not bogged down by restrictions except for those that are self/group imposed.
@@TheGoodchildOne No one expects a Force of will in a 5 color Sliver deck getting rid of Sliver Queen to pay for the cost as Overlord is the commander. Feeling anxious yet? ignore the fact that i can turn it into a Sliver with giving them a Hivestone and steal it with Overlord and from then on unless they blow up Hivestone any creature they have is mine note i would not have done that if i did not already have Bazaar trader and a Hivestone with fervor in my hand otherwise i can't give them the Hivestone to take their Blightsteel i mean my Blightsteel. Complicated combo i know but usually i steal their commanders with Hivestone find a way to get Hivestone back then go around the board taking the commanders, but who can resist a Blightsteel? or even putting a arrest on a Blightsteel till you can get the combo to add it to the Hive? I shall also turn their Mana crypt into a creature and take control of it also ignore that i am using a Sliver deck as a control deck. By the way if you don't know wat Hivestone does it turns all of the creatures you control into Slivers which used to be used as a counter for Sliver decks unless someone decides to use Overlord and take your newly created Slivers so you get the benefits but actually no its a trap as Overlord's control does not last till end of turn it last till the creature is dead. And one thing i would like to add both of Overlord's abilities are instant speed so say they try to supreme verdict us on their turn i could just take their Blightsteel in response even if they attack me or try to destroy the stone in response my Blightsteel, you stifle my ability? how cute in response i pay 3 my Blightsteel
Banning cards in this CASUAL format simply because of the price is a TERRIBLE idea for the health of the game. I see so many people screaming to ban all high roller cards simply for the price, for example, OG Duals. In my opinion, a healthy alternative to these cards would be proxies. Proxies 100 percent should be written into the rules of EDH as a whole. You are supposed to be playing against the player, not their wallet. As for the argument for banning top played mana rocks and all the best tutors, that is also a bit insane. Just because most people run those cards and view them as auto includes, does not make them ban worthy. I feel like if commander had the ban list that is discussed here. It would be the most drawn out and boring format ever.
Chaos Orb reminds me of winning Nationals at Redemption, a bible-based CCG almost as old as Magic...They had a card called Haman's Plot that had to be ripped up when used, so I brought a couple dozen to States and Nationals that year.
I would say that Chaos Orb, in my playgroup, is used as a colorless Vindicate. We just reworded it as "1, tap, Sacrifice Chaos Orb : Destroy target permanent." Has worked in our EDH and in my old Cube. Everyone's been fine with it so far.
Honestly I feel like there should be two different banned lists, one for Cedh and the other for more casual play. Some of the cards on the banned list arent banned due to power level, but being a feels bad. Having 2 different lists could let deck diversity increase since you can ban a card in one list without touching it in the other. But of course, that would take a lot of testing and trial and error.
Sheldon won't do it, it's on someone else to create/maintain a competitive multi player format. One possible remedy is to create a suggested casual ban list then minimize the actual ban list. This will lead to too much confusion however.
For what it's worth, you only need one turn with panoptic mirror, you don't need to sorcery speed it and wait a turn. You can respond to the trigger on your upkeep by activating in response and putting the card under.
@@NitpickingNerds I agree on most of what you guys are banning. But I think Sol Ring, tutors, fetchlands are a bit too far. People are welcome to introduce more variance in their playgroup should they choose to by excluding them. I enjoy having decks that have tutors as well as ones that don’t.
Question: If you cast T-protection while balance is on the stack it wouldn't count your permanents as ZERO because you as a player are not there to be included when it resolves. So you would keep all your things but it wouldn't remove everybody else's resources right?
I have a love/hate relationship for the bankist. I get why it exists. But stuff like flash and paradox engine I personally wish weren't banned because I didn’t play them in the ways they got banned for. But if I’m playing with a new group (or even an established group) they would most likely not let a house rule pass to play either of these.
As always when watching your videos I disagree with many of your points :-D Banning sol ring and command tower? Those are the poster boys of the whole format. When I started playing edh (theros), the main appeal to playing it was that you could do fun stuff that wasnt legal anywhere else - like playing necropotence eg. Banning coffers would really damage the power level of mono black decks, same with banning cyclonic rift for mono blue. They can compete now, but without them mono green with its access to every relevant effect in the game would be king by far. Tutors also find answers to some difficult situations in multiplayer games, which makes the dynamics more interesting imo. I really think that this whole ban stuff with some exceptions should be left to playgroups. Especially now as more people streamline their decks and they become closer to cedh.
I couldn't disagree more! Your telling me that if by banning one card, it "makes a color not compete now". If anything that tells you how powerful that card truly is. If you remove it from the format and now the color is done... You must be the player that plays sol ring/mana crypt in every deck. Be on the opposite side once and see how much fun you're having when a game immediately turns into a 1 v 3. When coffers comes down on the board and creates 10 mana and allows them to play their entire hand and more??? how is that fair magic? there is no down side to it. it's an auto include. and tutors make the format stale. Who wants to play the exact same game of magic every time? like they said in the video, you do the same thing every game. play the same cards every game. if i wanted to do that, I'd play standard. they also make games take longer because, like you stated, you can find answers to any threat.
@@JosephZiereis I was only talking about the mono colored decks in comparison to each other. I play sol ring in every deck, as every player that I know. Mana crypt in just some. Also I have been plenty of times in a 1v3 situation and vice versa, that's the beauty of edh, if you get too far ahead early, you take a risk like this. Tutors are ok if you don't overdo it. Answers are now more needed because some permanents/commanders are so powerful (chulane, k'rrik, korvold eg) that you have to deal with them immediately lest you die.
Idea The primary reason Tutors are so strong is because the ones that were listed were essentially the cheapest CMC ones. In some cases, you can literally tutor up for a particular card and play it in the same turn. Black actually has a BUTT TON of tutors, just not 'efficient' tutors. There's Diabolic Tutor, Increasing Ambition, Wishclaw Talisman, Scheming Symmetry, Beseech the Queen, Everything and EVERYTHING with a TRANSMUTE COST. I mention black mana tutors first because they are the most efficient, allowing you to just grab a card and add it without showing what it is, putting it on top of library, or any of the other silly things some other tutors do. There's too many tutors to even mention honestly. The only thing that would actively stop the mass tutoring would be to simply cull the most efficient ones, and even then if you're doing that all you're doing is manually taking one step back from being "super strong" to just "versatile strong". If you ask me, the biggest thing is that I do not believe tutors should be able to be *Instant speed* while remaining anything less than 3 or 4 mana in CMC. Even then that's a huge benefit because you're just going to have someone use that instant-speed tutor to find a counterspell, or grab something from their deck at the end of someone else's turn. Maybe any instant-speed tutor should just be axed. Also, every card with an alt casting cost that essentially makes it "free" should be _banned._ Fite me 1v1 RL over this, that stuff is absolutely toxic for games and I do not carry them in decks outside of 9's and 10's.
Yeah it’s a little confusing, those don’t promote playing magic either. It’s tough because there’s so many cards like that. We definitely aren’t saying the RC is stupid or anything; they have a tough job
@@uphillwalrus5164 I can see what you mean, but have to disagree. With all the brought back/sevines rec. shenegians, mana crypts and vaults and moxen and 2 mana rocks... It is possible to consistently power her out T4/5..
@@NitpickingNerds yeah but he was in my grimgrin deck til they banned him it was a horde of zombies with a handful of vampires commanding them, all working for grisslebrand
back when I built my first commander deck (Trostani, Selesnya's Voice), I put in panoptic mirror because I didn't know it was banned. I didn't even think of the implications of putting an extra turn spell on it, I just liked it because it let me get a free copy of Second Harvest or Rootborn Defenses each turn. Time Walks and boardwipes aside, this card is perfectly fine, even very cool for timmy decks or decks that want to abuse a few big spells in their deck.
I think what really helps the format most is a healthy discussion about power level. I understand the format feeling static, but my play group has gotten around that with deck building challenges like removing thassas Oricle or infinite combos from our decks for a few weeks. After that our deck building improved, and the decks are much more diverse. I've also had many times when a cyclonic rift results in the table cheating, because it kept the game going.
Coming from a more casual background: I think Arcane Signet is fine, I pretty much have my land slots locked around 35, 10 cards for permanent ramp (including mana rocks). If Arcane Signet is banned, I'll just stick another 2 mana mana rock - it helps decks with more colours, especially if the land base isn't the greatest. If you're in green, you're playing obligatory ramp cards anyway so nothing really changes here I'd probably say most of those 0 mana mana rocks would probably be considered for bans - other highroll related early game stuff being banned should slow the game down significantly Anyway, rant over - I agree with everything but the Arcane Signet, the high roll aspect isn't really too fun in general. Perhaps the "0 mana" counterspells are a place to visit too, then you spend less time looking at the blue player to see if you can play cards
I just think at some point the Arcane Signet / Command Tower cards hit a critical mass where in five years commander decks could have 5-7 auto-includes when I'd rather have the deck slots opened up since like you said every color has fairer replacements for them, but you'd have to choose what fits your deck best
@@NitpickingNerds id rather have the auto includes over more random cards that are strictly worse people can choose not to run the best cards. Forcing it on others just because you don't like best of cards is one of the worst ban reasons.
Top is fine, the issue is unexpected players using it. In my group the rule is know you’re next turn before your turn comes, unless something game changing happened right before you. Know your deck know your turns.
What is your guys opinion on carpet of flowers? I feel like the card is insanely strong and at least in the conversation for ban-able cards. You are almost never at a table where no one is playing blue, especially as you go up in power. And once someone even has three islands its already insane for a 1 mana investment. And it never feels good to destroy since it was only a one mana play and can be recurred pretty easy by any regrowth like effect or even cards like sun titan if you ever get rid of it. I think the dumbest part is that you can play it in first main and get the mana in second main in the same turn. I've seen people cast it late game and just net 7+ mana from it. It just almost never feels dead, early or late. Unless of course you are at a table with no blue players.
I agree with most of this, the cyclonic I'm in the middle, annoying card but when the green decks gets turn 3 avenger of zendikar, I'm happy to buy some time, with the single target, interaction is important in commader. Great video!
I do agree on many of the bans, the tutors, cradle, coffers, expropriate and especially rift. Just makes for unfun games. The only decks I play busted cards like top and mana crypt in are monoR or similar decks that are already so incredibly powered down due to the lack or late game advantage and ramp options. It gives those decks a fighting chance but I wouldn't really be sad to see them go. My Subira deck would go from decent to terrible (without solring, crypt and top) though =)
Talking about courser of kruphix do you think seedborn muse is ok? It is essentially the same thing in my eyes, just wanted your opinion. Keep up the good work!! Love the videos
I know you want to ban the super strong 1 mana tutors, but would you include gamble in that? It is only 1 mana, but I’d say it definitely isn’t as strong as the others
Hey guys, great commentary as usual. I want to see how Erayo, Sortami Ascendant would fare in the cEDH meta. I think it's right on par with some of the Knowledge Pool / Rule of Law shenanigans that are starting to become popular for the more disruptive decks.
Great discussion! I agree 100% with banning the auto includes such as sol ring and mana crypt. Also, I agree regarding the accessibility issues. (Btw, why is cradle allowed, but not academy when cradle is almost as broken?) I'm on the fence with rift, but it is approaching that auto-include territory for any deck with blue.
In addition to this topic: What do you think of a ban on certain legendary creatures in the form of "banned as commander"? I'm talking specificly about those, of whom you know that this game is no fun for a casual round in about 95% of times. Of cause this mostlikely will never happen because cEDH exists and playgroups can just "ban" the commanders they don't like. But man there are some commanders I wouldn't be sad, if I don't have to see them ever again ^^.. As always, great video!
We don't vibe with the banned as commander list, it was confusing and rule 0 helps sort out between the ones that should just be banned and the ones that aren't very fun. I think Iona is a card that rule 0 helps remove from games she would potentially ruin
I like the idea I heard here when you said you don't care what deck your friends play. And that most groups of friends, If people self regulate themselves the game plays out fine. Me and my few friends just play by...you make a deck with the cards you have...period. we play 60+ card formats. If something stands out and is just sucking nearly the whole life out of the game, we will back down from it some. It's not like any of us are going to show up anytime soon with a playset of timewalks. But I would give a go against a deck a couple times before judging it by its cover and saying nah I don't want anything to do with it. I make house rules to try to promote fun but not take away thrilling competition. My personal fav one is you can redeal your hand as many times as you want without taking a mulligan if you draw 1 or less, or 6 or more lands on open hand. If you get 3 to 4 lands and want a new hand, thats on you and takes a mulligan - you had a good enough hand anyone could ask for. We also experiment with 25 and 30 starting life totals to, at times, balanxe our the radical shift of damage pelting the same 20hp lifebar from 1993 when a 4/4 was something to respect and acknowledge on the battlefield. Now an angel can fart and it generates a 3/3 flyer. One thing me and friends kind of veer away from is all out land destruction. It's not unbeatable but it calls for specific counters. We try not to get into a situation of "Well if you play that deck it doesn't make any sense for me to play anything but this deck" wars. But we do try to have lots of various styles of decks because we all encourage each other to never shy away from something just because it seems unforgiving. We don't want to stifle each other's creativity either.
I have emrakul in my animar deck and it just sits in my hand most of the time. When I do cast it I have yet to lose but is not the combo peice I'm looking for. Its a card to finish off your opponent and it does it super well. Its also 15 mana. You would have to ramp out 4 turns in a row to get to it. I think its fine solely on its mana cost.
Aside from the deck diversity issue where it gets played 24/7 in anything… Main gripe I have with cyclonic rift is the design, specifically I hate the overload cost. Imo, It would have been a more reasonable design if it was UUU4 or something along those lines. It’s just kinda dumb how it can just be jammed in any deck that runs the slightest sliver of blue. An effect like that should at the least require a solid commitment to blue mana.
I tend to consider any creature with defense 3 or less hard to argue a ban for. As if there aren't enough counter spells floating around, 3 or less D stat is open to any bolt, shock + a ping. Wipes that hit every creature for 2 to 3+. Or etb effects like mh2 Fury doing 4 dmg to anything.
I strongly disagree with gifts ungive being unbanned as well as Iona. Gifts allows you to grab any two combos, and Iona is a permanent that just shuts down one colour which can cripple a game
The way I heard the explanation for flash being banned over protean hulk was that protean hulk was a card that had fun applications for casual decks that were not trying to win the game with it. The decision between flash and hulk was how to fix the cedh meta without messing with anyone's casual deck and very few people were playing flash outside of that one purpose.
I don't agree with the current banlist as it stands. A card should only be banned if it's format breaking (being powerful is not format breaking) and accessibility is already an issue anyway so I don't see the reason the moxen and lotus are banned.
Hey, just a question: Can we imagine Commander as a new type of game and therefore, use the formats and the banlists associated? (Sorry I'm French, so maybe everything I write isn't clear to understand!) I mean: Can we play Commander with Vintage Cards (all the cards ever printed), Vintage Banlist and could it be a Commander Vintage Format called "CV"? Same thing with Legacy... Can we play Commander with Modern Cards and Modern Banlist and this would become Commander Modern called "CM"? Pauper all right, Peasant ok... And so on, 1vs1 ... These are maybe some houserules but IF one day, WizardsOTC takes hand on Commander Format, why on Earth won't they do this to simplify the play of this new game? By the way, it could be fun to build those kinds of "format" decks. Best regards.
Panoptic Mirror, you don't need to wait until your next turn. During your upkeep you can imprint the card to get the effect right away. That's because it triggers weather it imprinter or not.
We mean that you have to untap with it after playing it, I see your point though. It just feels similar to so many of the 2 card infinite combos we have already
You guys are my favourite magic content on youtube. Sol ring and crypt are something I wouldn’t ban only because its exciting to pull ahead fast. It does force you into an archenemy position if you get too far, but i don’t think its a bad thing and can really shake up the early game. I get the deck diversity point but i feel like this is just going to be replaced with more generic rocks that are worse, not more unique spells.
I get that they will be replaced with the next strongest rocks, but those rocks won't be slam-dunk tutor targets and wouldn't be the same choice for every deck, so games would play out a lot differently without them
One issue with Erayo that might influence its banning is that it forms a 2 card combo with Arcane Laboratory that essentially reads "opponents can't cast spells" Arcane Laboratory 2(U) Enchantment Each player can't cast more than one spell per turn. I'm not entirely sure how easy it would be to pull off but it's essentially a 2 card combo that shuts down the entire table with one in the command zone.
The Flash combo only saw play in cEDH, the ban was for cEDH. Hulk sees more play in normal EDH and can still be used casually. Also without Flash there wasn’t a consistent instant speed way of sac the Hulk. Also Recurring Nightmare and Kokusho was the the reason. You could hold priority as well with the interaction.
4:30 Tergrid would love this card being unbanned. No don't unban emmy. There are plenty of ways to bounce it in colorless. The difference between intuition and gifts is that with gifts the opponents puts 2 directly into the grave and you put the rest in hand (so it can act as a double entomb) while intuition forces the opponent to choose one of the cards. That means for intuition you might need to grab a recovery card while gifts you don't.
On the case of Biorhythm and Coalition Victory, the rules committee's stance on why they are banned is because they are very swingy cards that can win the game with, in biorhythm's case little setup, and, in Coalition Victory's case immediately with the right setup. Even if they are not broken, they lead to swingy and generally unfun games. I experimented with a no banlist/light banlist commander format with my friend, and when we played games where the unbanned cards are ones like Coalition Victory and Biorhythm, the games were very swingy and generally unfun.
Panoptic mirror works with any extra turn card. And searching artifacts is easy. Blue has too many ways to give it flash. To easy a lock. As for command tower it’s only an auto include in 3 plus color deck. It’s fine in 2 color and a basic land in a mono color. I’d not ban it. Agreed about tutors! I specifically don’t use them for that reason exactly!
Command Tower is also an auto-include in two color decks, it's an untapped dual with no downside, like in RG for example the only other card like that is Taiga. What makes the panoptic mirror lock different from lame legal things like armageddon, stasis, or protean hulk though? I feel like rule 0 handles it
I'm really not down for banning Command Tower. All of the other good fixing is expensive, so it's really important for making budget decks.
Would be nice if wizards would print better mana fixing lands more often and stop printing those shitty generic 2 color lands that enter tapped.
@@mitrimind1027 I agree why do I need ever land to be forced into a dual color deck or be stuck using basics
Agreed, I prefer it over almost any other land. It’s an auto include in every deck that’s not mono coloured
@@mitrimind1027 well there are some decent lands that enter tapped unless you have 2 or less lands or a swamp or something. I use these and they work
agreed. A card being auto include does not make it ban worthy if it doesn't warp the format at all. Cards like low cost tutors, for example, completely change the format and make combo way better than it should be.
Banning command tower would really hurt more budget players, other good lands are more expensive and hard to get.
Right they so stupid
@@turtleanton6539 I wasn’t saying that
@juter4397 I don’t think scarcity should always dictate a ban. In fact it almost never should unless power is also a issue.
Exactly! If we are banning cards for lack of accessibility, why would we ban a card that is accessible to budget players?
I think they should ban basic lands because they're auto includes in almost every deck, and that hurts deck diversity
And I don't know what they have against people having good mana, but like games are more fun when people actually get to cast their spells.
Flash makes sense over Hulk because it was a cEDH-specific ban. The combo itself is not super popular outside of cEDH, and in casual commander, Hulk sees more play. So banning Flash makes the cEDH community happy while minimizing the impact on the rest of the format.
wanted to comment this, leaving protein hulk unbanned was a gift to casual players since they like to play it manually. Flash was getting degenerate with thassa's oracle making the combo more consistent and harder to stop. That's why people wanted to ban flash specifically since it wouldn't affect casual play.
Sushi hulk says hi
I think insane combo cards like flash and tinker that wind up banned in legacy or restricted in vintage have a pretty solid argument for getting banned in commander because they represent play patterns that wizards doesn't want to be a part of their game as a whole even at high levels of play
Flash died for the sins of Thassa's Oracle, not because of Hulk. Turns out, flashing Thoracle was harder for your opponents to interact, and Hulk saw some play on lower power EDH games, so the RC banned the card that only saw play on cEDH.
The reason they don't ban the best mana rocks is: Green. Green as a color identity is already too powerful to let it have a monopoly of the best ramping options.
??Green can play crypt and sol ring like any other color
@@Alessandro-mg9oh yeah, as well as other one mana ramp cards. And can easily have enough redundancy to ramp from turn one, consistently in a 99-singleton format. And if you go into other mana values,… even more ramp.
The rest of the colors, don’t have that many options for ramping, only rocks.
Ramp is such a powerful thing to do in the format to just have one color doing it consistently. The other colors need them to be able to catch up with green.
Mana ramp spells are too slow for green to play no one runs them in cedh. Azusa, oracle of muldaya, kodamas reach. Are too slow
@@brandonslade2134 elves and all other 1mv dorks and enchantments
@@moralessanchezoscarelias6412 Sol Ring isn’t staying unbanned because of green. It’s because Wizards doesn’t want a precon (or in this case, all precons) to immediately be unplayable.
However I do think that at least Sol Ring and Crypt are bad for the casual format, just like the cheap black tutors. I’m not gonna not play them because they are good (instead price would be why on just Crypt), but I wouldn’t revolt if I have to use Worn Powerstone and Letter Of Acceptance over Sol Ring and Arcane Signet.
Tinker is insanely too powerful, guys. Think about it...instant speed tutor that cheats mana cost in blue. It's an answer, a win con, and there is no comparison in any other color.
Instant speed sac a token for any artifact is absurd.
There is equivalent but its alot more expensive, kuldotha forgemaster, planar bridge
@@Someone-lg6di those aren't on the same level. Remember - Tinker costs 3 mana. Forgemaster is 5 mana plus needing 3 things to sac and you need to either wait a turn or grant it haste to activate. Planar bridge is 14 mana to do it all in 1 turn.
Yeah we weren’t 100% sure on some of them I think we use the word maybe like a million times in this video 😂
@@NitpickingNerds fair enough, lol. I agree on a lot of your other ones though; Gaea's Cradle most particularly.
Flash /Academy Rector was a thing, too. T1 Omniscience is pretty good...
That is strong and something no considered in the video.
Good ole days sigh....
You can still t1 omniscience with a god hand lol.
Flash is and will continue to be the problematic 2 mana instant enabler for all the LTB creatures they will print. Flash is the correct choice, because it will be broken with something else at some point.
@@jahpal9275 that and the fact that flash has such as small fringe use outside of ltb effects that it's An easy ban.
I don't believe in deck diversity bans. Imo, "deck diversity" as a balancing concept is something that should purely be moderated by your personal playgroup and not something imposed on everyone.
THANK YOU
Emrakul is incredibly hard to interact with and it can be cheated out easily if it's in the deck. If it's in the command zone the game devolves into arch enemy just to stop it from getting on board
That sounds fun. I’d be game for a playgroup to build an archenemy deck that people could take turns running.
Yeah my friend built the deck with ways to bounce emrakul and it just wasn't fun
Isn't single board wipe enough?
@@jeffnorris211 Ah the words of a person that has never been forced to sacrifice 6 permanents and have no answers to the monstrosity that is Emrakul. I find it cute when casual players think something super oppressive is fun, because one day they'll play against it and immediately go "what the fuck is this"
@@martinhrdlicka1004 the problem abot that is that u get an extra turn so emrakull will be able to atack so u will sac the 6 anyway
Tinker is really busted, believe me... It was already insanly good back then in Standard. Imagine in EDH...
Yeah we were pretty iffy on it, just something we would consider (I think we mention that for most of the unbannings)
@@NitpickingNerds the way i think of it thinking how good Arcum Daggson is, and then check out Tinker and think
So by wanting to ban the fast Mana rocks, you're essentially saying that you'd like green, which is already the strongest color due to its ability to ramp efficiently combined with the social contract's taboo on mass land destruction, to far and away dominate the format. The other colors, especially red and white, need those rocks to keep up.
I agree, people have been complaining about sol rings and Crypt for a long time just because they are autos and efficient but now talking about early rocks that color fix is just plain dumb. #LeaveTheManaRocksAlone
Black is actually the strongest single color. Green becomes the strongest when combined with another color.
@@Jackaroo. FALSEHOOD!
@@Jackaroo. except the best color is blue lmfao
But you play sol ring and mana crypt in green desks too, because they are that good................ you're telling me you don't have sol ring and mana crypt in your green desks? I'll call you out on that one. has nothing to do with green being the best color. has to do with the power level of the card.
Tolarian academy BANNED
Gaea’s cradle PERFECTLY OKAY FOR THE FORMAT
Tolarian academy is better than cradle
@@Djewell314 by a mile
@@travishaggar1197 10 years ago it was by miles now it’s by inches still better but cradle is bonkers.
@@Djewell314 Gaea's is better in mono green / triabal / creature decks... this is problem. Its the same level on "power" in correct deck. Both can easy add 5-10 mana ... and problem with Gaeas is that green is super easy to have it in play every game becose of so many tutors for lands....
In blue/artifacts decks - most of time, you dont have so many options for tutor for Tolarian. You would need to add Green on Black to do it...
Thisis why in my opinon Greas is more broken then Academy - and still both are ladnds that winds game, and both shoud be banned. On top of that - if you want now comptetive deck with green - 90% of time, you need to spend yours months salary for 1 card...
It’s sooooo much bette
I literally thought they called it the 99 because sol ring was an auto include
This is amazing
In a format where you are incentivated to play 4-5 colors, cards that rewards you for playing monocolor a truly like it, and i would love to see more in other colors. Not only i would not ban cabal coffers, i would make card in that diection in monocolors that need a bit of help. Equivalents for monowhite (like emeria), or monored (like valakut), i think are healthy for the format. Incentivating not only playing the more colors the more card pool you have for your strategy. Also, cards that limit you 30 cards in your deckbuilding in exchange for a powerful effect are called build arounds, and are good and cool, without so many tutors surely are balanced.
In my opinion at least I think the difference between coffers and the other lands you mention is that coffers makes games feel extremely same-y. On the first couple of turns you tutor up coffers then play it and ramp out big mana threats. I think it hurts deck diversity and gameplay diversity
@@NitpickingNerds The monoblack comanders are the LEAST unique comanders( stats taken in the episode 104 EDHRECast). All monoblack deck have nearly the same cards, and thats another problem, i think mainly because black can do anithing, and has only restictions in paying life. I would ban Urborg before coffers, becuse it makes coffest busted (mana profitable with less lands), and can be used in multicolor decks, removing the deck restiction. Having said that, i would put Obliterate, Apocalipse, staic orb, stasis drecree of anihilation or demonic consultation wayyy before cabal coffers or urborg.
Urborg is the real problem, with out it Coffers is mono black only. I feel like spot removal for lands is a must in any deck anyways. I would ban urborg first
Coffers is the problem. One land shouldn’t ramp that much, and if it does, it should be green. It’s a build around specifically because it’s incredibly powerful. A better idea would be to ban some of the expensive lands that cover your mana while coming in untapped. Make multicolor decks more likely to have lands come in tapped and this slower and it will make mono decks faster.
@@yoyepo91 If you limit yourself to just one color and lose all the versatility of a pool of cards 5 times more wide, cards like cofffers balance that exchange. Think of it as cards like niv mizzet Parum, in exchange os a very restrictive mana cost, you get an overstated creature. If the price of deck building is really high, the rewards should be equivalent.
If you have ever lost turn 0, you know why flash is banned.
@@robertmonroe1883 Or Flash / Academy Rector / tutor some game-ending ultra expensive and powerful late-game enchantment into play. With flash gone, you could maybe unban the extra turn Emrakul.
@@robertmonroe1883 The extra turn pushes it over the top and always makes it a prime target for cheating it into play.
Leovold slows down games, single-handedly ruins certain types of decks, and just makes the table groan. Not a good emissary if you ask me.
Top ten WORST emissaries 😂
@@NitpickingNerds He's top 5 for sure xD
I was literally watching the original banlist episode yesterday, I wasn't done watching it, and when I tuned in this morning to watch it. The video was removed.
Makes sense now.
I don't understand...what changed from yesterday?
NinjaWizardRalph we had to reupload do you an error
I think an issue with just taking a bat to all the top tier tutors is then you’ve got the colors that specialize in massive card draw being able to steam roll a little more. Also Black for example has a lot of second string tutors that would fill those spots quickly while White has no replacement comparable to enlightened tutor.
Jo Ken the second string tutors just aren’t very good. We don’t need replacements for tutors we just need less tutors
Another thing, the tutors enable jank combo decks to perform at a casual level.
I play like 6 tutors in my Atogatog combo deck and it still unperformed at most tables.
I am going to have to hard disagree with most of your takes on your additional bans.
1. The argument that if a card is an auto-include it should be auto-banned is completely arbitrary. The only time this is appropriate is if it is a one-sided advantage like Lutri.
2. You cannot hold that an auto-include such as Arcane Signet should be bannable while at the same time complain that wizards needs to have better mana rocks, like you do in other videos. Arcane Signet is not a problem at all. It is a playable version of Commander's Sphere without the cantrip.
3. If someone plays turn one Sol Ring, they immediately become a target for the whole table. I'd say thats balance. Don't ban the card, just play more politically. Commander is meant to be political.
4. Banning tutors is asinine. They exist to make combo decks possible in EDH. Imagine trying to find a single combo piece out of 100 cards vs. drawing one of four copies of it from a 60 card deck. The tutors literally even the odds at the cost of card disadvantage. There is absolutely nothing wrong with these. Plus there are plenty of cards in the format that punish tutoring. Ob Nixilis, Opposition Agent, etc
There are a couple of cards that you were considering un-banning, and I just wanted to point out a few things that you might have missed
Erayo: hard locks the game, with several white cards that only let players cast one spell a turn.
Flash: Arena Rector can also be flashed in, to go get omniscience.
Gifts Ungiven: the trick here is to read the card carefully, if you only get 2 cards, both go to the graveyard, it can be used as a double entomb. Also there are several gifts piles that just win the game.
I agree with erayo. He's very easy to flip with blue and my friends always hated it when I played it
John Smith double entomb is not very good and what piles win the game? I don’t know if any.
@@NitpickingNerds alot entomb is a tutor for graveyard decks my scion deck wins with just 1 creature in grave and mass revival or 2+. Scion mills bladewing then revive bladewing and scourge of vallas or terror of the peaks, instant win only pice commander doesnt tutor is the revival effect
Someone that requires a lot of hoops
@@NitpickingNerds just vomander and a card that revives 2 creatures
We let a friend play Erayo once. The game just becomes so unfun when it flips.
Plus there are cards that exist that say "You can only play one spell per turn," which literally locks the game out.
the keyword here seems like once
I think y'all're underestimating Gifts Ungiven. I've never seen it resolve and the caster not win the game. If the deck is built properly, there are multiple combinations of four cards for which any choice one's opponent makes off Gifts will win one the game. It's another situation where the only thing that stops the win is countermagic, which is a skosh uncool outside CEDH.
I love gifts to death and still think it needs to stay banned. 4 cards is a lot and like you said, if the deck is built right it will win off of one search. But there is also the fact being that you don't even need to get 4 cards makes it even more powerful.
Sometimes the issue with intuition is that the opponent chooses correctly and makes you jump through hoops to combo off. With gifts, you can just have 2 combo pieces put in the graveyard and win.
yeah, all you need is sevines reclamation lions eye diamond underworld breach and wheel of fortune. boom you win by filtering through your entire deck. if they give you a hand with sevine you bring back breach, If they don't give you sevine then you flashback sevine and grab breach. EZ
Braids turn two is so hard for opponents to come back from speaking from experience playing against it
It’s a card that might be too unfun
Much like they mentioned in the video, the problem when you talk about Turn 2 Braids isn't actually braids, it's the fast mana.
Yeah braids would need to ruin games on average most of the time which I’m not sure about
@@kitbroughton3421 A turn 2 Braids can come from a 2 lands and a Dark Ritual. So Dark Ritual should be banned because it allowed Braids to come out on turn 2?
@@hiddenleaf414 Dark Ritual is not a permanent the braids player could sac in desperation. Its a higher investment than a soul ring or something similar.
The best artifact for tinker to fetch out isn't blightsteel, its memory jar. The decks that would run tinker are likely cheerio decks like Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain. As a Jhoira player, i guarantee you that tinker would be used either to fetch out memory jar if my hand is bad, aetherflux reservoir if my hand was good, or something like nev disk or o-stone if the board needed to be wiped.
best target by far for tinker is bolas's citadel
A Ban List discussion? A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one!
Hope you enjoyed it!
Also, "I want the format to be as fun as possible."
Literally wants to ban all my favorite cards which provide consistency in my favorite format. I'm glad your banlist isn't the banlist or I would probably not be playing EDH, despite playing since 2013.
I could do without Food Chain. There is a guy in my playgroup that always just wins with it in his Prosh deck and it is very anticlimactic and just a feels bads!
Flash got banned over hulk because flash protected death triggers in a really unintuitive way that can't be interacted with once it begins to resolve. And I personally think its interaction with the mana tripler scared the RC.
No, from a casual perspective yes it seems strong but no. Protean hulk is still a win con, if you are playing hulk, you will have a hulk win line (in cEDH). In more casual games it’s just a big value engine but flash hulking into a mana tripler is not the best thing you could do with it. It’s cool but not it.
When I use tutors I normally get w.e is needed to deal with a problem but sometimes I do use them to help my board state. So is the episode just "no ramp no auto include"? Look I understand wanting to see different decks but come-on. Sol ring is fine. It's a 4+ player game. If someone gets a early game sol ring u have 3+ other people to put them in check.
Joe is 100% correct about Erayo, Beezy is 100% correct in pronouncing Protean Hulk (not Protein). You are both 100% correct about Sol Ring and Mana Crypt!
Pronunciation was always my strong suit 😂❤️
@@NitpickingNerds Protein Hulk would be an epic un-set card. Just a Timmy bodybuilder human
I love how an anecdote about events from the 90s, which inspired an UN card apparently made that the actual card ruling.
You flip chaos orb, you drop falling star.
Idk why apparently the "tear the card up" is apparently the cardtext. Neither should be banned because they're super goofy. Again I guess this goes with Rule 0.
Dexterity cards are bed for black border magic because the game should be playable by anyone who can read, regardless of their physical abilities. Dexterity cards unfairly penalize people with differently abled bodies.
People would tear the card into pieces so that it would touch more cards.
I was really looking forward to this video. I've been thinking a lot about the CMDR ban list recently and I appreciate hearing your guys opinions on it. However, I don't think command tower or arcane signet deserve a ban.
I do strongly agree that sol ring and crypt's legality should be reevaluated. Especially as wotc prints more and more powerful cards into the format.
Where do you stand on the "auto-includes" like command tower and signet?
@@NitpickingNerds I believe they're really helpful for players who want to play multiple colors and can't get a hold of more expensive untapped lands to get good color fixing, they also don't break the game from a power level perspective like sol ring and mana crypt. So I see them as a positive in the format even if they do homogenize it.
Don't ban Command Tower until they print more affordable and playable duals and tris
@@sethswimmer6882 fair
I loved your take on Hulk and it’s great that both of you have very differing opinions. Great video as always. Few channels I will sit down and watch an hour long video. Keep up the good work and stay safe.
thelonelyfish0 thanks fish 🐠
Hey, I love your content but I wanted to clarify that Chaos Orb doesn't require that you rip it into pieces. I believe you're confusing it with Chaos Confetti. A lot of us used to run multiple Chaos Orbs in every deck back in 93/early 94 and it was probably the most powerful card in MtG at that point. Basically it's a three-colorless-mana artifact with "destroy between one and five target permanents" that you can recur (e.g. Archaeologist, Reconstruction, etc.). It was particularly devastating in land destruction decks of that era. The DCI banned it right away because of its power level and also for the ridiculous impact it had in tournament play, as people would literally tape their cards to the walls to nullify the effects of Chaos Orb. Realistically it should probably stay banned in EDH but it's still my all-time favorite card. Cheers.
Haha people would tape their cards to walls?! I did NOT know that! 😂
I once had Cyclonic Rift into only one deck. A few months ago, the spike in me realized that this card was an auto include in all blue decks, so I put it in all my decks. Thanks to you, you made me remember why I only put it into my most competitive deck. I just removed it from every other blue decks and I feel better !
the only argument i make for keeping sol ring in the format is that it can be a great top deck for someone struggling to hit enough land drops to stay competitive
It's cheap and accessible, leave it be.
@@Tracker947 not only that, but it goes in literally every deck. Nobody is missing out on playing it so I don’t see why it would be banned. Why ban something that helps other colors than green get their ramp going?
Uncounterable, flying 15/15 with Protection from Colored Spells and everytime it swings defending player must sacrifice 6 permanents. Nope, cant see how taking an extra turn and having a 15/15 uncounterable creature that has protection from colored spells can be broken in a commander format overrun with mana rocks, infinite mana loops and other ridiculous enchantments/artifacts to make emrakul invincible
nah they are right emrakul shoud be unban and command tower shoud be ban
@@joaoleite9250 while we're at it unban Iona and Prophet of Crufix oh and Upheaval those cards are counterable so theyd be better options than Emrakul
Infinite mana loops win without Emrakul
Heh, hate Protean Hulk. It was the obvious ban when the Thassa's Oracle/Flash debacle was a thing. The card has always been a problem, and we could've been done with it for good. I agree with the banning of the top tier tutors for sure. If I remember correctly the reason Gifts Ungiven was banned is that it became an unwinnable situation every time it was cast. The player would search for their four win conditions, at instant speed, and it was game over. No matter how the piles were separated they were probably going to win. And as we know even if two cards get dumped into the graveyard that doesn't mean a whole lot these days. XD great video guys, and it was some nice insight (:
The ban list altogether is fairly problematic, as LITERALLY anything one (or two, three, four...) card(s) can do, there is a bunch of other cards that do the same (or worse). Its hard to justify anything being banned with all the cards that aren't, and we certainly can't go back through and ban every card that can win games. Lots of slippery slope argument space here. I mean, I think a shit load of cards should be banned, but its hard to justify them in comparison to other cards sometimes.
a lot of card are banned as a representative for certain strategies the RC thinks are unfun. and they arent banning for powerlevel-reasons. thats not my opinion btw, just the reasoning behind the bans (or cards not being banned while others are)
@@dino-wer-kuh3498 I mean, yes, that's correct; but frankly, it is the power level of those strategies that is the core of the issue 9 times out of 10.
Too OP = less fun ≤ ban hammer(?)
(And if your/their statement was 100% true, land destruction would be banned outright, in all forms j/k lol)
@@workyoutube7798 yeah, the list is pretty arbitrary. thats the cost of banning on subjective feelings than objective powerlevel. but its a cost im willing to pay, bcs it keeps the nature of EDH casual at heart. i still disagree with a bunch of their choices though, but in the end im fine with it
@@dino-wer-kuh3498 Yeah, I'd agree with that for the most part.
When a card is so efficient that it prevents build diversity, it should be banned
I play coalition victory in my sisay weatherlight deck. If I ever win with this card I'm gonna freak out, since it is a full flavour deck with each card referencing the weatherlight story. So no dual lands, no feches, not much ramp outside of the pieces of ramos, so I have to have one of each basic land and at least 3 creatures out to win with it. I just love it.
strong budget cards like sol ring, that feel realy good wehn you get it in your opening hand may be problematic but in a 4player game this is less of an issue since it encourages teamwork to catch up and politics are some of the most fun things about this game. mana crypt is worse since its less accessible.
arcane signet and command tower on the other hand should definately stay. the most restricting thing about building decks on a budget is the manabase and those two cards help fix that a little. its two cards in 100 everyone runs but i dont think this is a problem when it comes to lands and mana rocks. those things mostely do the same thing and having those vs. a new cycle of duals or rocks doenst make much of a difference imo.
Magic is so interesting in so many levels: I'm (usually) a Modern player, and I'm trying to learn and play commander for the past 2 months. To do so, I'm consuming a lot of content - gameplay, reviews, tier lists - and I can definitely say that the layers in EDH (and magic in general) are so deep. So many cards you've mentioned here I'd think are just "meh" with a "modern player mentality", but after playing for a little bit or watching some gameplay videos, I believe those cards to be very strong and such a potential for great powers to be unleashed. However, you guys have something I'm yet to achieve in EDH: experience. The point of view on each card that you've mentioned, to preserve the fun in the meta is such an important reason to consider (un)banning cards, and that can only be achieved with such experience. Great Job!
Thank for this awesome comment
@@NitpickingNerds it was deeply sincere. I learn a lot from your tier list (probably my favorite content of yours). It is so much fun and elucidating, because there are so many cards with consistent comments from you guys per video that the knowledge just grows exponential. Thanks again ♡
PS: I'd Love to see you talk more about deck techs and combos in EDH. My deck nowadays is Zur, but not Stax (Solemnity+9Lives & Necropotence+SolitaryConfinement, etc.).
PS2: I'm building a K'rrik deck (because of Post Malone's Secret Lair). I know you guys did a video about K'rrik, but any chance you guys talk about it again?^^
"Twister is the cheapest draw 7 that exists" apparently wheel of fortune and windfall arn't cards
Yeah I thought it was weird wheel of fortune didn’t even get mentioned
Wheel is more easily replaced though. Red has at least two other wheel effects which are arguably better and far less expensive. Magus is fired at instant speed, allowing you to mess with decks that try to set up their hands and Wheel of Fate gives you a couple turns to drop your hand and does it on your upkeep, giving you a hand of eight cards that turn. Even Memory Jar is less destructive on your wallet, and that is almost a strict upgrade.
Blue's wheels, on the other hand, tend to be more expense or not actually draw seven cards and Twister resets graveyards. This makes Twister more difficult to replace (and it's replacements have a habit of getting banned).
You’re forgetting Contract from Below is cheaper than all of these 😈
I really think the commander community can be reasonably separated into two groups. People who want to play good magic cards, and people who want to play mediocre magic cards. The problem being that the people who like playing good cards tend not to care what everyone else plays, and the people who want to play mediocre cards want everyone else to do so.
This is so true I'm surprised more haven't said this in the comments.
@@ahordeofpigz I think once you look at it from this perspective, all of the banned cards make sense as do most of the cards people suggest banning
Having played casual EDH games with competitive people, I 100% agree on the Tier 1 tutor bans. Every game they don't win right away feels like they're just letting it drag on out of pity because everyone else at the table spent less money on cards than they have. It's also the reason I built and Ob Nixilis, Unshackled deck. I am a horrible person in the name of fun.
That sounds like some vigilante justice 😂
Given your feelings about cabal coffers and Gaias Cradle, what do you think of Nyx Lotus? Never seen it tap less than 10 to 12 mana.
Nah, it’s way easier to kill and much slower, still good but not nearly as good
Banlist is such a hard topic. It's so hard to please everyone and keep it consistent with philosophy. I think Banlist should not be like a hard ban, but being a suggestion. If player have a cEDH deck he wouldn't play it against some budget player. Most of players sits down with friends, so rule 0 solves that part. If he(or she) is an asshole, you either don't play with him or play archenemy, whatever you're prefer.
Yeah we have advocated for making cedh kind of it’s own format with a separate banlist but that wasn’t a very popular idea 😅
@@NitpickingNerds yeah, I assume that probably won't work with cEDH, but there's always will be a top teir deck(s), so make different banlist is not an option, then there will be cEDH, some semi-competitive EDH and casual commander. So again, this is hard as hell to please everyone
Commander should be open to all cards except those that absolutely break it. That is one of the main reasons commander is fun, its not bogged down by restrictions except for those that are self/group imposed.
Turn 1, crypt, island, tinker, blightsteel
Force of will!
@@TheGoodchildOne i force of will your force of will
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena ooof, thats a good one
@@TheGoodchildOne No one expects a Force of will in a 5 color Sliver deck getting rid of Sliver Queen to pay for the cost as Overlord is the commander. Feeling anxious yet? ignore the fact that i can turn it into a Sliver with giving them a Hivestone and steal it with Overlord and from then on unless they blow up Hivestone any creature they have is mine note i would not have done that if i did not already have Bazaar trader and a Hivestone with fervor in my hand otherwise i can't give them the Hivestone to take their Blightsteel i mean my Blightsteel. Complicated combo i know but usually i steal their commanders with Hivestone find a way to get Hivestone back then go around the board taking the commanders, but who can resist a Blightsteel? or even putting a arrest on a Blightsteel till you can get the combo to add it to the Hive?
I shall also turn their Mana crypt into a creature and take control of it also ignore that i am using a Sliver deck as a control deck. By the way if you don't know wat Hivestone does it turns all of the creatures you control into Slivers which used to be used as a counter for Sliver decks unless someone decides to use Overlord and take your newly created Slivers so you get the benefits but actually no its a trap as Overlord's control does not last till end of turn it last till the creature is dead. And one thing i would like to add both of Overlord's abilities are instant speed so say they try to supreme verdict us on their turn i could just take their Blightsteel in response even if they attack me or try to destroy the stone in response my Blightsteel, you stifle my ability? how cute in response i pay 3 my Blightsteel
Banning cards in this CASUAL format simply because of the price is a TERRIBLE idea for the health of the game.
I see so many people screaming to ban all high roller cards simply for the price, for example, OG Duals.
In my opinion, a healthy alternative to these cards would be proxies.
Proxies 100 percent should be written into the rules of EDH as a whole.
You are supposed to be playing against the player, not their wallet.
As for the argument for banning top played mana rocks and all the best tutors, that is also a bit insane.
Just because most people run those cards and view them as auto includes, does not make them ban worthy.
I feel like if commander had the ban list that is discussed here. It would be the most drawn out and boring format ever.
"Six mana on turn 3"
Great. That's a turn after Kinnan has already won the game.
Unban Rofellos.
How is kinnan faster?
@@Mynamedoesntreallyfi it's not
If he’s faster than rofellos then get him outta here too 😂
Chaos Orb reminds me of winning Nationals at Redemption, a bible-based CCG almost as old as Magic...They had a card called Haman's Plot that had to be ripped up when used, so I brought a couple dozen to States and Nationals that year.
This whole video is just you complaining about consistency in the format and a lack of understanding about different cards.
You say consistency they would sameyness
I would say that Chaos Orb, in my playgroup, is used as a colorless Vindicate. We just reworded it as "1, tap, Sacrifice Chaos Orb : Destroy target permanent."
Has worked in our EDH and in my old Cube. Everyone's been fine with it so far.
Honestly I feel like there should be two different banned lists, one for Cedh and the other for more casual play. Some of the cards on the banned list arent banned due to power level, but being a feels bad. Having 2 different lists could let deck diversity increase since you can ban a card in one list without touching it in the other. But of course, that would take a lot of testing and trial and error.
Ike Petro we fully support cEDH and EDH being separated
Sheldon won't do it, it's on someone else to create/maintain a competitive multi player format. One possible remedy is to create a suggested casual ban list then minimize the actual ban list. This will lead to too much confusion however.
@@damonlouis6536 as if rule 0 and the actual ban list do not do that already as it makes the ban list meaningless
For what it's worth, you only need one turn with panoptic mirror, you don't need to sorcery speed it and wait a turn. You can respond to the trigger on your upkeep by activating in response and putting the card under.
lets just say I'm glad you guys arent in charge of banning cards.
Dang what did we get wrong?
@@NitpickingNerds You didn't unban Rofellos :(
Oh no casuals are complaining about fast mana again... *yawn*
@@NitpickingNerds I agree on most of what you guys are banning. But I think Sol Ring, tutors, fetchlands are a bit too far. People are welcome to introduce more variance in their playgroup should they choose to by excluding them. I enjoy having decks that have tutors as well as ones that don’t.
Mike we discuss ever choice and explain our feelings and say we don’t know that we would ban all these just that we would consider it.
Question: If you cast T-protection while balance is on the stack it wouldn't count your permanents as ZERO because you as a player are not there to be included when it resolves. So you would keep all your things but it wouldn't remove everybody else's resources right?
Why wouldn’t you be there as a player? Maybe I am missing something
@@NitpickingNerds nevermind haha... i thought it was like YOU PHASE OUT... but it is just your permanents and your life total can't change.
I'm glad y'all don't have a say in cards being banned.
I have a love/hate relationship for the bankist. I get why it exists.
But stuff like flash and paradox engine I personally wish weren't banned because I didn’t play them in the ways they got banned for. But if I’m playing with a new group (or even an established group) they would most likely not let a house rule pass to play either of these.
As always when watching your videos I disagree with many of your points :-D Banning sol ring and command tower? Those are the poster boys of the whole format. When I started playing edh (theros), the main appeal to playing it was that you could do fun stuff that wasnt legal anywhere else - like playing necropotence eg. Banning coffers would really damage the power level of mono black decks, same with banning cyclonic rift for mono blue. They can compete now, but without them mono green with its access to every relevant effect in the game would be king by far. Tutors also find answers to some difficult situations in multiplayer games, which makes the dynamics more interesting imo. I really think that this whole ban stuff with some exceptions should be left to playgroups. Especially now as more people streamline their decks and they become closer to cedh.
I couldn't disagree more! Your telling me that if by banning one card, it "makes a color not compete now". If anything that tells you how powerful that card truly is. If you remove it from the format and now the color is done... You must be the player that plays sol ring/mana crypt in every deck. Be on the opposite side once and see how much fun you're having when a game immediately turns into a 1 v 3. When coffers comes down on the board and creates 10 mana and allows them to play their entire hand and more??? how is that fair magic? there is no down side to it. it's an auto include. and tutors make the format stale. Who wants to play the exact same game of magic every time? like they said in the video, you do the same thing every game. play the same cards every game. if i wanted to do that, I'd play standard. they also make games take longer because, like you stated, you can find answers to any threat.
@@JosephZiereis I was only talking about the mono colored decks in comparison to each other. I play sol ring in every deck, as every player that I know. Mana crypt in just some. Also I have been plenty of times in a 1v3 situation and vice versa, that's the beauty of edh, if you get too far ahead early, you take a risk like this. Tutors are ok if you don't overdo it. Answers are now more needed because some permanents/commanders are so powerful (chulane, k'rrik, korvold eg) that you have to deal with them immediately lest you die.
Idea
The primary reason Tutors are so strong is because the ones that were listed were essentially the cheapest CMC ones. In some cases, you can literally tutor up for a particular card and play it in the same turn.
Black actually has a BUTT TON of tutors, just not 'efficient' tutors. There's Diabolic Tutor, Increasing Ambition, Wishclaw Talisman, Scheming Symmetry, Beseech the Queen, Everything and EVERYTHING with a TRANSMUTE COST. I mention black mana tutors first because they are the most efficient, allowing you to just grab a card and add it without showing what it is, putting it on top of library, or any of the other silly things some other tutors do.
There's too many tutors to even mention honestly. The only thing that would actively stop the mass tutoring would be to simply cull the most efficient ones, and even then if you're doing that all you're doing is manually taking one step back from being "super strong" to just "versatile strong".
If you ask me, the biggest thing is that I do not believe tutors should be able to be *Instant speed* while remaining anything less than 3 or 4 mana in CMC. Even then that's a huge benefit because you're just going to have someone use that instant-speed tutor to find a counterspell, or grab something from their deck at the end of someone else's turn. Maybe any instant-speed tutor should just be axed.
Also, every card with an alt casting cost that essentially makes it "free" should be _banned._ Fite me 1v1 RL over this, that stuff is absolutely toxic for games and I do not carry them in decks outside of 9's and 10's.
Braids and iona are banned but blood moon and stasis are a-ok lmao
Yeah it’s a little confusing, those don’t promote playing magic either. It’s tough because there’s so many cards like that. We definitely aren’t saying the RC is stupid or anything; they have a tough job
Consider them sitting in the CZ.. That is THE issue.
@@petrseghman4283 iona is 9 mana mono white. The game has ended by the time I get her out
@@uphillwalrus5164 I can see what you mean, but have to disagree. With all the brought back/sevines rec. shenegians, mana crypts and vaults and moxen and 2 mana rocks... It is possible to consistently power her out T4/5..
@@uphillwalrus5164 and still. 7/99 : 1/1 is just so much different.
Good lord! Show us on the doll where artifact ramp hurt you
Unban grislebrand
I think he is pretty solidly stuck there forever
@@NitpickingNerds yeah but he was in my grimgrin deck til they banned him it was a horde of zombies with a handful of vampires commanding them, all working for grisslebrand
@@NitpickingNerds it was jank story telling
back when I built my first commander deck (Trostani, Selesnya's Voice), I put in panoptic mirror because I didn't know it was banned. I didn't even think of the implications of putting an extra turn spell on it, I just liked it because it let me get a free copy of Second Harvest or Rootborn Defenses each turn. Time Walks and boardwipes aside, this card is perfectly fine, even very cool for timmy decks or decks that want to abuse a few big spells in their deck.
I think what really helps the format most is a healthy discussion about power level. I understand the format feeling static, but my play group has gotten around that with deck building challenges like removing thassas Oricle or infinite combos from our decks for a few weeks. After that our deck building improved, and the decks are much more diverse. I've also had many times when a cyclonic rift results in the table cheating, because it kept the game going.
Coming from a more casual background:
I think Arcane Signet is fine, I pretty much have my land slots locked around 35, 10 cards for permanent ramp (including mana rocks). If Arcane Signet is banned, I'll just stick another 2 mana mana rock - it helps decks with more colours, especially if the land base isn't the greatest. If you're in green, you're playing obligatory ramp cards anyway so nothing really changes here
I'd probably say most of those 0 mana mana rocks would probably be considered for bans - other highroll related early game stuff being banned should slow the game down significantly
Anyway, rant over - I agree with everything but the Arcane Signet, the high roll aspect isn't really too fun in general. Perhaps the "0 mana" counterspells are a place to visit too, then you spend less time looking at the blue player to see if you can play cards
I just think at some point the Arcane Signet / Command Tower cards hit a critical mass where in five years commander decks could have 5-7 auto-includes when I'd rather have the deck slots opened up since like you said every color has fairer replacements for them, but you'd have to choose what fits your deck best
@@NitpickingNerds id rather have the auto includes over more random cards that are strictly worse people can choose not to run the best cards. Forcing it on others just because you don't like best of cards is one of the worst ban reasons.
Ratchetfan321 we like deck diversity which these cards do not promote at all. They are auto includes. We don’t like the way they impact the format.
Top is fine, the issue is unexpected players using it. In my group the rule is know you’re next turn before your turn comes, unless something game changing happened right before you. Know your deck know your turns.
What is your guys opinion on carpet of flowers? I feel like the card is insanely strong and at least in the conversation for ban-able cards. You are almost never at a table where no one is playing blue, especially as you go up in power. And once someone even has three islands its already insane for a 1 mana investment. And it never feels good to destroy since it was only a one mana play and can be recurred pretty easy by any regrowth like effect or even cards like sun titan if you ever get rid of it.
I think the dumbest part is that you can play it in first main and get the mana in second main in the same turn. I've seen people cast it late game and just net 7+ mana from it. It just almost never feels dead, early or late. Unless of course you are at a table with no blue players.
I agree with most of this, the cyclonic I'm in the middle, annoying card but when the green decks gets turn 3 avenger of zendikar, I'm happy to buy some time, with the single target, interaction is important in commader. Great video!
Thanks Jonathan!
I do agree on many of the bans, the tutors, cradle, coffers, expropriate and especially rift. Just makes for unfun games.
The only decks I play busted cards like top and mana crypt in are monoR or similar decks that are already so incredibly powered down due to the lack or late game advantage and ramp options. It gives those decks a fighting chance but I wouldn't really be sad to see them go. My Subira deck would go from decent to terrible (without solring, crypt and top) though =)
Talking about courser of kruphix do you think seedborn muse is ok? It is essentially the same thing in my eyes, just wanted your opinion.
Keep up the good work!! Love the videos
Do you think Leovold Braids or Rofellos would be okay in the format if they went back to banned as commander?
07:30 those were really satisfying 16 seconds
I know you want to ban the super strong 1 mana tutors, but would you include gamble in that? It is only 1 mana, but I’d say it definitely isn’t as strong as the others
I asked Joe about Gamble and he said no, it puts you down a card (sometimes it is accidental Entomb) and is a sorcery
Hey guys, great commentary as usual. I want to see how Erayo, Sortami Ascendant would fare in the cEDH meta. I think it's right on par with some of the Knowledge Pool / Rule of Law shenanigans that are starting to become popular for the more disruptive decks.
So fetch lands ban along with the basic fetches right?
Great discussion! I agree 100% with banning the auto includes such as sol ring and mana crypt. Also, I agree regarding the accessibility issues. (Btw, why is cradle allowed, but not academy when cradle is almost as broken?) I'm on the fence with rift, but it is approaching that auto-include territory for any deck with blue.
Because most decks are prepared to deal with creatures more then other nonland permanents in regards to cradle
In addition to this topic: What do you think of a ban on certain legendary creatures in the form of "banned as commander"? I'm talking specificly about those, of whom you know that this game is no fun for a casual round in about 95% of times. Of cause this mostlikely will never happen because cEDH exists and playgroups can just "ban" the commanders they don't like. But man there are some commanders I wouldn't be sad, if I don't have to see them ever again ^^..
As always, great video!
We don't vibe with the banned as commander list, it was confusing and rule 0 helps sort out between the ones that should just be banned and the ones that aren't very fun. I think Iona is a card that rule 0 helps remove from games she would potentially ruin
@5:30 are you confusing Chaos Orb with Chaos Confetti?
I like the idea I heard here when you said you don't care what deck your friends play. And that most groups of friends, If people self regulate themselves the game plays out fine. Me and my few friends just play by...you make a deck with the cards you have...period. we play 60+ card formats. If something stands out and is just sucking nearly the whole life out of the game, we will back down from it some. It's not like any of us are going to show up anytime soon with a playset of timewalks. But I would give a go against a deck a couple times before judging it by its cover and saying nah I don't want anything to do with it.
I make house rules to try to promote fun but not take away thrilling competition. My personal fav one is you can redeal your hand as many times as you want without taking a mulligan if you draw 1 or less, or 6 or more lands on open hand. If you get 3 to 4 lands and want a new hand, thats on you and takes a mulligan - you had a good enough hand anyone could ask for. We also experiment with 25 and 30 starting life totals to, at times, balanxe our the radical shift of damage pelting the same 20hp lifebar from 1993 when a 4/4 was something to respect and acknowledge on the battlefield. Now an angel can fart and it generates a 3/3 flyer.
One thing me and friends kind of veer away from is all out land destruction. It's not unbeatable but it calls for specific counters. We try not to get into a situation of "Well if you play that deck it doesn't make any sense for me to play anything but this deck" wars. But we do try to have lots of various styles of decks because we all encourage each other to never shy away from something just because it seems unforgiving. We don't want to stifle each other's creativity either.
I have emrakul in my animar deck and it just sits in my hand most of the time. When I do cast it I have yet to lose but is not the combo peice I'm looking for. Its a card to finish off your opponent and it does it super well. Its also 15 mana. You would have to ramp out 4 turns in a row to get to it. I think its fine solely on its mana cost.
I run kozi in mymanimar deck for antimill card and card draw
@@Someone-lg6di good idea. I gotta see what I'm gonna cut for it now
Aside from the deck diversity issue where it gets played 24/7 in anything… Main gripe I have with cyclonic rift is the design, specifically I hate the overload cost. Imo, It would have been a more reasonable design if it was UUU4 or something along those lines. It’s just kinda dumb how it can just be jammed in any deck that runs the slightest sliver of blue. An effect like that should at the least require a solid commitment to blue mana.
Timetwister isn’t banned because the rules committee each own several copies
I tend to consider any creature with defense 3 or less hard to argue a ban for. As if there aren't enough counter spells floating around, 3 or less D stat is open to any bolt, shock + a ping. Wipes that hit every creature for 2 to 3+. Or etb effects like mh2 Fury doing 4 dmg to anything.
Hey guys, would you agree with making a definition between cEDH and EDH, possibly having different ban lists
I strongly disagree with gifts ungive being unbanned as well as Iona. Gifts allows you to grab any two combos, and Iona is a permanent that just shuts down one colour which can cripple a game
Couldn't agree more with sol ring ban! get that shit outa here
The way I heard the explanation for flash being banned over protean hulk was that protean hulk was a card that had fun applications for casual decks that were not trying to win the game with it. The decision between flash and hulk was how to fix the cedh meta without messing with anyone's casual deck and very few people were playing flash outside of that one purpose.
I don't agree with the current banlist as it stands. A card should only be banned if it's format breaking (being powerful is not format breaking) and accessibility is already an issue anyway so I don't see the reason the moxen and lotus are banned.
Hey, just a question:
Can we imagine Commander as a new type of game and therefore, use the formats and the banlists associated?
(Sorry I'm French, so maybe everything I write isn't clear to understand!)
I mean:
Can we play Commander with Vintage Cards (all the cards ever printed), Vintage Banlist and could it be a Commander Vintage Format called "CV"?
Same thing with Legacy...
Can we play Commander with Modern Cards and Modern Banlist and this would become Commander Modern called "CM"?
Pauper all right, Peasant ok...
And so on, 1vs1 ...
These are maybe some houserules but IF one day, WizardsOTC takes hand on Commander Format, why on Earth won't they do this to simplify the play of this new game?
By the way, it could be fun to build those kinds of "format" decks.
Best regards.
Panoptic Mirror, you don't need to wait until your next turn. During your upkeep you can imprint the card to get the effect right away. That's because it triggers weather it imprinter or not.
We mean that you have to untap with it after playing it, I see your point though. It just feels similar to so many of the 2 card infinite combos we have already
You guys are my favourite magic content on youtube. Sol ring and crypt are something I wouldn’t ban only because its exciting to pull ahead fast. It does force you into an archenemy position if you get too far, but i don’t think its a bad thing and can really shake up the early game. I get the deck diversity point but i feel like this is just going to be replaced with more generic rocks that are worse, not more unique spells.
I get that they will be replaced with the next strongest rocks, but those rocks won't be slam-dunk tutor targets and wouldn't be the same choice for every deck, so games would play out a lot differently without them
One issue with Erayo that might influence its banning is that it forms a 2 card combo with Arcane Laboratory that essentially reads "opponents can't cast spells" Arcane Laboratory 2(U) Enchantment Each player can't cast more than one spell per turn. I'm not entirely sure how easy it would be to pull off but it's essentially a 2 card combo that shuts down the entire table with one in the command zone.
The Flash combo only saw play in cEDH, the ban was for cEDH. Hulk sees more play in normal EDH and can still be used casually. Also without Flash there wasn’t a consistent instant speed way of sac the Hulk.
Also Recurring Nightmare and Kokusho was the the reason. You could hold priority as well with the interaction.
4:30 Tergrid would love this card being unbanned.
No don't unban emmy. There are plenty of ways to bounce it in colorless.
The difference between intuition and gifts is that with gifts the opponents puts 2 directly into the grave and you put the rest in hand (so it can act as a double entomb) while intuition forces the opponent to choose one of the cards. That means for intuition you might need to grab a recovery card while gifts you don't.
On the case of Biorhythm and Coalition Victory, the rules committee's stance on why they are banned is because they are very swingy cards that can win the game with, in biorhythm's case little setup, and, in Coalition Victory's case immediately with the right setup. Even if they are not broken, they lead to swingy and generally unfun games. I experimented with a no banlist/light banlist commander format with my friend, and when we played games where the unbanned cards are ones like Coalition Victory and Biorhythm, the games were very swingy and generally unfun.
Panoptic mirror works with any extra turn card. And searching artifacts is easy. Blue has too many ways to give it flash. To easy a lock. As for command tower it’s only an auto include in 3 plus color deck. It’s fine in 2 color and a basic land in a mono color. I’d not ban it. Agreed about tutors! I specifically don’t use them for that reason exactly!
Command Tower is also an auto-include in two color decks, it's an untapped dual with no downside, like in RG for example the only other card like that is Taiga. What makes the panoptic mirror lock different from lame legal things like armageddon, stasis, or protean hulk though? I feel like rule 0 handles it
The best way to deal with availability is proxies. It’s wotc’s problem that you’re not spending money on their game