so again guys, all these cards are busted. i am not in anyway saying that they aren't good. we're talking about banning here. what does it take to get a card banned? certainly not combo potential, and certainly not that it's just a really good card.
EDIT: You can probably tell what my argument was from the replies. I admit defeat, just stop reiterating the same points and spamming my notifications 😩
Fundamentally, the issue in commander isn’t power cards, it’s people not setting expectations for pods. There are plenty of unfun, overpowered, or incredibly expensive cards which are still fine to run as long as the other decks running against them can compete. The other issue is the rules committee doesn’t differentiate between banned and banned as commander, which could definitely help with overall format health.
@@PerpetuallyTiredMillennial That's distinctly untrue. Whatever takes the place of the best card, or combo of cards, will by definition be weaker. It's a fallacy most anti-ban people make, and it's always wrong. It's fine if there are replacement staples out there, so long as they're at a reasonable level of strength. The concern is never that there's a "best" card for a situation. It's that the best card is unhealthy for the game. Especially for people who don't have a regular playgroup that can self regulate. Sometimes, people are stuck with only being able to play with pods of random players.
The only time I've seen Thassa's Oracle in casual was a game my friend had where his opponent played a janky devotion to blue deck. He played it on a field with around 30 devotion and won off that, no turbo mill, no infinite blue pipped tokens, no infinite card draw, he just used it as a nice semi-tutor that occasionally won him the game if his game plan went well. Imagine that, the only time Thassa's Oracle being tolerable is when it's used as it was designed to, as a devotion payoff
I run it in a couple decks that draw a lot of cards but have easily disrupted wincons. It's basically, if I get locked out of my game plan and I've already drawn too many cards to feel comfortable, I at least still have a chance. I don't tutor for it, I don't combo with it, it's just a hail Mary when I'm probably going to loose otherwise. I think that was the point of this video, don't ban the cards just use them appropriately for your play group.
The cyclonic rift before their turn is usually used with a bunch of creatures or some other way to kill people on the board since they have no mana rocks, hate pieces, or blockers etc from what I have seen
18:25 Wait... Isn't the main reason for banning a card is when a card retrospectively should have never been made? But I think there is a big distinction that needs to be made between thoracle and lab-man. Lab-man is balanced by needing to sit on the battlefield when you draw. Any instant speed interaction will lose you the game when that happens. Thoracle will win you the game if your library is empty. There is no counterplay besides a stifle effect, but even that doesn't make you lose from it. Thoracle can be removed at instant speed in response to the trigger, and the player will still win the game with zero cards in library and zero devotion.
I remember when I first got into commander I thought infect should be 20. But now I’m fine with it being 10. In my playgroups, if someone plays cards with infect it can often trigger a 3v1 so that balances out the race to get to 10 poison.
I think infect should be changed to 20 (or always half your starting life total) only if/when we get a set where infect is a main mechanic and it gets alot of good tools. For now there's no reason to change it to 20 other than salt.
@@Libery300 Infect is a 7 on the storm scale, I'm not sure we'd be likely to see it unless we had a set real focused on Phyrexians again, hasn't been brought back since New Phyrexia
@@guyinthecorner0 even then (it's a matter of time since Phyrexians will obviously be the next end game bosses like Nicol Bolas), I don't think wotc wants Infect in Standard
In my years of playing Commander I’ve only had 5 total poison counters. That was a 3 player game and we still hanged up on that player and made him lose. I’m fine with it being 10, there’s just so little viable infect in the format that I think it’s fine if someone occasionally gets one shot by a skittles or something.
I've played against tergrid a good amount as my friend typically plays the commander. My group does play a lot of removal, more than the usual commander game. However, I usually run into the problem that Tergrid usually is heavy discard themed and by the time Tergrid is usually cast, we have no more cards in hand. Not bannable by any means, but I am giving out a huge problem that comes with those Tergrid decks
I really doubt that you never saw a cyclonic rift used offensively. Maybe I'm in a combat-heavy playgroup, but I usually see a cyclonic rift used when there is a large stalemate on board. When played at the endstep before your turn, it guarantees that you can swing your creatures for lethal.
Why is that any different from someone dropping Craterhoof Behemoth when they have a huge boardstate or a big Finale of Devastation that gets you a Craterhoof or a Pathbreaker Ibex, or just casting Triumph of the Horde, or Master Warcraft, or Bond of Discipline, or Akroma's Will or... or... or... Cyclonic Rift is a great card, but there are a million ways (actually better than Rift), to untap and Win when you have a big stalemate creature boardstate setup. There are a thousand ways to buff your guys, become unbloackable, tap opponents' boards, etc, that are cheaper than Rift. Rift is still amazing due to its versatility, but if the only reason people are salty about it because they got swung in on after their blockers were removed, well... that's just stupid. There are a million cards that functionally do exactly the same thing.
@@LC-wv7tz I think you missed the point. Cyclonic Rift can work offensively exactly like most of the cards you mentioned (except in a mono blue deck you can't run green, etc.), while also being the best defensive card. The versatility is what makes it broken, more than just the board wipe.
@@canadianguy1578 Except that's not what anyone ever said. The complaint wasnt that Rift is a versatile card, it's that people untap and win after casting it. By the same token, Akromas Will I'd also very defensive. Rift is great, but not eve approaching broken compared to the other cards in this format.
Overall I heard a lot of similar arguments in this video: this card makes you the archenemy so it's more balanced because of that. I think that in general people save their super powered cards until they're ready to win with them. For example with Gaea's Cradle: you wait until you have maybe 10 or so tokens generated. Then you play the Cradle, tap it for 10+ mana, play a Finale of Devastation and get whatever creature (perhaps a Craterhoof, a Siegebreaker, or a Partbreaker Ibex) as well as the huge buff and haste that the Finale provides and proceed to win. That's just one quick and dirty example. It doesn't matter if you're archenemy the moment you play the Cradle, you won the game right then and there (in most cases I mean, obviously removal/counterspells exist but 'dies to removal' or 'gets stopped by a counterspell' is not a good argument)
I guess my issue here is that you're relying so heavily on your personal experiences and especially so with how you personally use or would use these cards. If your playgroup and patrons don't abuse these cards then that's great, my personal playgroup has done a lot to currate our decks to not run combos and infinites and "I win" effects, but that's not why the ban list exists. It exists for people that play not in their regular playgroup. I know that when I run a Dockside in a deck, it's for the most part going to be fair and I'm not going to pair it with Deadeye Navigator, and my playgroup knows this, but when with other people that I don't know, I just always assume that Dockside will get sacrificed and reanimated or flickered multiple times and be abused, and I assume that based on my personal experiences with it. I envy your luck to not see these cards be abused in regular play because I almost always see them abused. Just today, had a guy using Ephemorate to flicker Dockside and then and the free cast of it he would target his Eternal Whitness to get back more flicker spells that would then be used on Dockside and looped that stuff every players turns. I'm also stunned you don't see people often win after they cast and overloaded Cyclonic Rift. I can't remember the last time I saw that spell cast and the player didn't win in the next turn or two. It's usually used defensively to protect a swing against them because they have such a scary board state, and then because it's a 1-sided board wipe it just puts them at an even best spot relative to other players and then when it gets to their turn they swing with a nearly unblocked army.
I'm not really in favor of bans in general, but I do agree with you. He has a very narrow perspective here. I really like his deckbuilding content, but he's really been coming off an kind of pretentious in these opinion videos lately...which is upsetting because I can't stand commander's quarters after he started making this kind of content, so I'm worried I'm going to lose interest in this channel too...
@@ryansprenkle6356 Ha, yeah. I'm in a similar boat. I like the interesting deck ideas and such, but when discussing bans and unfun cards, you just gotta remember that most players do not have much restrain and they will abuse cards to their fullest capacity.
So I have a question that I'd like other opinions on. I have a thassa's oracle in an Aesi sea creatures deck. I use it because I have multiple permanents that have multiple blue pips and the card scrys me a lot usually for double blue. I understand that it's not optimal, but it seems to work very well for digging me further into the deck. I've never won with the alt wincon. Thoughts?
So I have one casual deck that runs thassa/lab as the win con, but it is in a completely convoluted way. It requires minimum 1 creature/enchantment that can have me put down lands (Sakura tribe scout), 1 creature/enchantment that can have me pick up lands (moonfolks), a way to produce extra mana by tapping lands(lotus cobra), retreat to coralhelm to reset my tapped land putdown creature, and then some way to draw off inifinite mana/land etbs (things like tatyova). I do that all with 2 enchantment tutors total in my entire deck. Its great for a weird strategy like that, giving it a win con, and the entire engine is minimum 5 pieces to win.
When you talked about Blightsteel Colossus, that reminded me of the last episode of Game Knights; I felt it kinda sucked for one of the player to have been ejected of the game, when they didn't even have a chance to do that much in the game
I’m happy they said they really wanted to have her back! I remember her saying JLK and Jimmy wanted to have somewhat lower powered decks for that episode. and yet everyone went off and yeah there was a blightsteel colossus.
It's not Blightsteel that played petty though. She got hated off of the board for a fair board wipe. They chose to play commander in a way that ignored threat assessment and instead went with drama. Like many other situations, a ban wouldn't have saved her in the end.
@@themochaman LOL Some people go crazy when you blow up their only red land. I thought it was funny that the Treasure (ramp deck) entered into a comical vendetta mode ;p
I completely agree with everything, specially the Dockside Extorsionist considerations. It is not a card that should be banned, but rather one of the cards that should be reprinted sooner than later, next to the azorius talisman. The only issue with Dockside is its price, being released only two years ago.
that and the free spell cycle from c20. they desperately need a reprint, not a ban. they're auto includes for nearly every deck (except the fog one, literally nobody plays it lmao), but deflecting swat and fierce guardianship are like $50+, deadly rollock is $30, and flawless maneuver is $17. they are amazingly good staples, but not a lot of people have the budget for or want to drop $60 on a counterspell, for example, for every single blue deck they have.
I'am using it in casual and get sometime like 3 Treasures. I mean that is awesome, but it is not game breaking if you do not abuse it like shit and use infinite combos.
@@OverlyCriticalAnime You are right, cause Hullbreacher has got another issue und you can't compare it to other cards, with one ability in common and not paying attention to the absolutely broken one... Hullbreacher + Wheel = gameover and that's the same shit with Tergrid, but she doesn't have flash ...
I know some folks say that Drannith Magistrate is a cEDH-only card because of it shutting down commanders, but it does so much more. It stops Bolas's Citadel, Prosper, Elsha, and lots of other storm strategies that play off the top or from exile. That new Arcane Bombardment? The Magistrate stops it cold.
Dockside is more bannable than kikki because it’s much more efficient, since it provides the mana to go infinite with, whereas Kiki is 8-10 mana for the combo that you need to generate. Dockside still isn’t bannable in casual, especially with new capenna making treasures ubiquitous so the gap between dockside and the next best cards has dramatically declined
3G Defense of the Heart. Three creatures an opponent controls gets you Kikki combo immediately. Can even use Forbidden Orchard to give them a token if an opponent only has two, tap land for mana on end step, win next turn
@@starcalf_ your opponents have to let your defense of the heart go off though for a turn cycle with all of them untapping, which is terrible threat assessment on their part. Defense of the heart is mediocre in high power/cedh because you invest 4 mana for someone to chain of vapor it for one.
Dockside was okay when it came out. The fact that more and more artifact Tokens got printed everywhere and that he on the floor pays mostly for himself makes him to good. And in the Ceiling gives ungodly amounts of Mana. He is like a Mana Geyser that costs 2. Or like a Dark Ritual with Replicate. The unfair part is that it punishes nonland, non creature ramp. Green is already a strong color and non reliant on artifact ramp. Dockside therefore punishes a necessary playpattern to keep up with other players, but in an uneven manner. Think of it like Iona. One player is unharmerd but for the rest it sucks. I don't think he is banworthy but I don't see playpattern where he adds to the overall fun of the Game.
thing is dockside never was anything close to fair sorry to say that that card is easyly an 4-5 mana ramp unless you are playing against 3 mono green decks it just got even more busted
Great video as per usual! I do actually run Thassa’s Oracle in one of my casual decks. It’s a Eligeth and Kydele deck where I do try and draw out all the cards in my library. I run Laboratory maniac and Thoracle just as wincons, but I have other ways to win too like Helix Pinnacle and psychosis crawler. I think having it in the deck may look scary but I think I play it in the more “casual” way I can
I'm of the same mind on most of the bannings and proposed bannings. Seems to me the prevailing mindset is "we want to do our thing without having to think of what anyone else is doing" when it comes to players calling for cards to be banned. There just needs to be more interaction overall instead of letting people battlecruise to victory. Also agree about Thassa's Oracle. A very strange call by the designers. It would possibly make sense if the text read, "You don't lose the game" rather than "You win the game." Then it could at least be compared to Platinum Angel, Lich, or similar effects.
My issue with Fierce Guardianship is that the caster can make plays on their turn, 1 for 1 your card and you had to tap lands. It should allow the target's controller to untap lands equal to the mana value of the countered spell
I urge you to think objectively here. The idea of a "Social Ban" is useless, and shouldnt be used as a reason to not ban a card. Also saying that another card isnt banned so this card shouldnt be banned is a bad reason, or else by that logic a card would never be banned If most people in the format dont want to play against a certain card, then it should be banned. If you and your playgroup are totally fine with playing against that card then sure, unban it for your playgroup! Thats the whole heart of the format! if you have a group you play with and a card you use gets banned, but everyone in the group is okay with you using it, then you can just keep using it. Someone without a usual playgroup doesnt have that opportunity Since this is a casual format, the ban list should be for people that do NOT have a playgroup that they play with all the time. Which is exactly where a "Social ban" is completely useless. (Like with armageddon) P.S. if you are casting cyclonic rift and not winning on your next turn or the turn after, then you have casted cyclonic rift at the wrong time haha
Have you even played commander? The whole format works on a social contract. That's literally what keeps it going. Saying a social ban is useless is truly wild.
It made sense for hull breacier to be banned because unlike the others that just steal draws, hull stopped both card draw and turned it into an insane advantage with wheels, getting you both mana and cards which alms and notion do not do. Plus the color restriction of white and dimir isn’t as easy to do instead.
@@edhdeckbuilding I just think that in the decks that utilize a blue card like hull, they don’t need the card draw as much as they need the mana, especially with wheels since they can now play the cards that they drew unlike with notion. I think notion would be a lot more hated if it was solely blue.
@@edhdeckbuilding That time my friend had to takesy' backsie' due to responding to a Consecrated Sphinx draw trigger with Notion Thief and would have drawn their whole deck out and lost without a Lab Maniac in the deck... hmmm different times LOL :p
I totally agree with your take on Dockside extorsionist. At this point the people complaining are the ones that want one but dont want to pay $70-$80 for it (and when I say people, I mean the ones that only regurgitate what their favorite content creators told them). If you are in a casual table and someone is comboing with Dockside, then that is not a casual player. And that is not really a problem with the card, but the person that says his/her deck is "casual". If you are playing in a high tuned table, isn't that the point, high powered decks, and the same applies to cedh.
I mean, its still alot of mana even if you aren't comboing, though I may be bias because I like artifact centric decks so I happen to have 5 or 6 artifacts fairly early
Great you're on the side of not banning things and allowing the people playing the format to moderate it themselves! Firmly in that camp myself. I do appreciate the need to ban Flash for the cEDH community though, since many competitive players use the banlist as gospel. It's much easier for a casual group to rule 0 Flash in your deck than it would be for a cEDH pod to rule 0 ban it.
I remember somebody saying I made a mistake early in the game where I exiled a dockside extortionist in a chrome mox for a turn 1 ragavan because i didnt have a mountain. However i was gaining so much value off of ragavan by getting early treasure and getting peoples fetchlands and ramp spells on the top of the library. Dockside is really limited in early game, but is really used to close out the game IF you have an outlet like you said in the video! Great points you made!
Re: Cyclonic Rift (13:12) Your reasoning doesn't include on-board effects. Speaking as someone that's played a lot of mono-blue specifically, it can be challenging to combo off and win the game when your opponents have Smothering Tithe, Rhystic Study, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, and so many other hate pieces active on the board. The value of Cyclonic Rift is that it buys you a window where you can use the full value of your board to win the game without your opponents' board states getting in the way.
My biggest problem with Rhystic Study is that it is an incredibly efficient stax piece and an effective draw spell stapled onto one card. I always pay the 1. There are some people in my LGS who refuse to pay the 1 and essentially kingmake whoever has it. It's not fun to watch people play suboptimal like that. And yes, I could talk to them. I have no problems telling people that I don't want to play against you, but should I be doing that? Where is the line between not having fun and having to gatekeep other people like that? I suppose a lot of these card's problems would be solved if more people would calmly say "Hey, I don't want to play against that because I find it unfun. Can you switch to something else?"
I’m not sure the extent to which we should accept the logic (which is the most common argument presented here) that “this should never be played in non-CEDH, therefore it should not be banned”. This seems like the opposite of the obvious conclusion. More to the point, it suggests that EDH is really two separate formats with totally different ban needs. Casual needs bans for cards that are: profoundly unfun(Tegrid); always overpowered (Urza); arbitrarily swing game results for drawing a single card that is good in any context (dockside, sol ring) and cards that break core constraints of a game of magic (infect; ramora; free spells). CEDH needs bans for cards that are ubiquitous or meta defining.
This is what I summed this video up to: there´s always a place for a card, even if it´s broken in some strategies. If you want to use it, learn to use it right, so the basic premise of "everybody having fun" is fulfilled. If you bring out a bad time for everybody, hopefully you´ll notice yourself, or the playgroup tells you, so you can adapt. It´s a social thing we should enjoy after all. If you´d have every sort of data of every match played, you could sort out the cards, that were most "bad-feelings-like". But how much emotion and memorable moments (comebacks maybe) would we miss out on? Thank´s for all the videos btw, I really enjoy them :)
Literally JUST had the conversation the other day on why yawgmoths bargain is banned and not neceopotence. I ran bargain in a deck without the knowledge of its banning and it was the easiest win ever when I had it in play. The fact that you do at instant speed makes a world of difference! You cast your best spell?...in response, I essentially tutor for a counter spell. It deserves its banning over necropotence.
as someone that plays against tergrid pretty regularly.... seeing my opponent play cards like contamination, grave pact, or dictate of erebos its really hard to even play the game let alone just out the commander
In my Ur deck I is Cyc rift as a way to get past blockers or get rid of enchantments or artifacts that have effects that won’t let me swing out or use the abilities of my creatures. I also use it as an anti combo piece against my opponent. In a situation where they are trying to combo off I’ll overload it mid combo to basically interfere with the infinite they were setting up.
The win-con with rift that I see alot is looping it so no one can keep anything on the board. Rift, e witness, repeat. But I will add that so many powerful cards have come out recently that rift is no longer as unfun as other cards. So I would vote to not ban it.
@@OverlyCriticalAnime krosan grip says abilities can’t be activated. Necropotence cannot be used in response. However, assuming it was a disenchant, original comment is correct. You may activate any number of times before passing priority.
@@Dev-fe7fk An incorrect reading of the comment. OP was referring to the scenario where Necropotence is activated once, then gripped. The reality is that Necropotence can be activated as many times as they want before priority is passed to the grip user. There's nothing inherent to split second cards that would allow you to interrupt priority.
@@CKarasu13 This is correct, until priority has passed it remains with the player who has it, so they can activate necropotence as much as they want, but not a single one will resolve until every other players has had a chance to respond in turn order and no one else adds anything to the stack.
30:20 You can hold priority put how many activations of necropotence you want on the stack, before your oponent can krosan grip. Why would anyone activate once and then pass priority?
@@jollemol Can't an opponent respond to the first life spent, and then you're unable to activate necro anymore since it's not a mana ability? I understand that you're able to use necro any number of times until krosan grip is on the stack, but OP said that you can continue to activate necro even after krosan grip was cast. I don't understand how your comment answers that part of the question.
@@dylanfarley8136 nope, you have the option to hold priority when you do something. So let's say I want to use naru meha to double a spell, I cast the spell -> holding priority -> cast naru -> now I let people respond. Keep in mind none of my spells get to resolve until I pass priority. Also, if you cast a spell and pass priority but your opponents DONT respond, then the spell resolves before you get to do anything else on the stack
@@dylanfarley8136 also, op said "you can activate necro any number of times before your opponent can krosan grip" meaning you would activate necro, hold priority, activate necro, repeat as many times as you want. THEN you would pass priority and someone can krosan grip it
10) I don’t have a problem with Aertherflux or Blightsteel. I want the smoke. I built my Queen Marchesa to take advantage of those feelings. It’s a part of life and a good lesson. 9) What I don’t like about Fierce Guardianship is that it targets too many spells. If it were non-permanent spells, I’d be more comfortable with it. Instances and sorceries are the majority of kill spells and nonsense like extra turns anyways. 8) Strangely I have not yet played against Tergrid yet either. She just seems easy enough to play around like you mentioned. 7) God I hate that card. It’s a universal answer that can’t be skirted. It gets rid of the cards that are preventing the combo wins. Other board wipes are limited to creatures, artifacts, enchantments, or static planeswalker effects. Cyclonic Rift gets them all. Destroy effects can be stopped by indestructible, totem armor, and now shield counters. 6) I build my decks to where they can still function without the commander, but obviously they always work better with them, so Drannith Magistrate for me is annoying, but not bannable. 5) I hate “You win the game” wincons. All of them. Making someone lose the game has to be repeated multiple times. “You win the game” only needs to be done once and you don’t need to interact with your opponents in any way. Thoracle is just the worst example of the effect because it’s so difficult to interact with a player intentionally running out their library. 4) If Rhystic Study were designed today, it would have a “triggers only once per turn” clause on it. It’s annoying to be asked over and over and over again. All I ask is that people not be a jerk about it. 3) I think this is too much mana too fast, easily abusable with untap shenanigans, and it’s an effect on a permanent that is harder to remove. Putting land destruction lands in can help, but it’s extremely narrow and doesn’t interact with other cards. You’d have to include tutors to make sure you have access to it, and tutors are a separate problem altogether. 2) I don’t have an issue with Necropotence. Using life as a resource is how some color combinations are able to keep up with blue/green decks. 1) I don’t know how to fix Dockside Extortionist. I understand the experience is uneven, but I feel like the effect is undercosted at 2. Treasures have become a gigantic part of the game. I build Mardu decks and will finally be putting one into my first deck. It’s a Kelsien build that’s going a blink/untap route rather than the deathtouch route so I’ll be able to take greater advantage of Dockside’s effect.
i have a friend with cyc rift derangement syndrome, gets legitimately angry it exists, and it's the shit that makes you ask why, it's best in class, but so much other stuff is so much more frustrating and it's never THAT good b/c we're casual. I cast it to win with a big boardstate. Same as a craterhoof or a venser -2, you know? my one newer friend casts it badly every game and loses every time he does card causes some kind of dementia in people
With both Drannith Magistrate and Grasp of Fate, you're likely removing or keeping away multiple threats from the board for usually at least one turn, *and* even if the opponents remove your Magistrate/Grasp, you've still forced them to use up a removal spell on it. Not only that, there are many situations where all three opponents aren't going to be likely to want the card removed. Maybe someone already has their commander on the board- in the case of Grasp, maybe you didn't take something from a player that they cared about too much. You can even use these politically- sometimes your opponents might even help you protect these cards. I think painting these as an instant 3v1 scenario is just not accurate to the actual reality of how they'll be used. In case it's not clear- I don't think they should be banned, but I do think they're great cards.
I agree Often also one person's permanent removed with Grasp of Fate will be much better than the other 2 players. Are they really excited to give that player his good card back?
Everyone in my meta has a cyc rift in each of their blue decks. More often then not, cyc rift is used as in answer to your credit. However, there has been countless times where The pod has been close to parity and one person rifts, then swings in and wins. It’s so good because it leaves the caster ahead at instant speed. I guess just thinking back, the card that has led to the most feel bads in my time playing has been the rift.
Cyclonic Rift I feel like is the set-up for an epic finish, but it still needs a bunch of accompanying pieces. I have a Nekusar (the Mindrazer) with the OG wheels pieces (and my own twists). I rift, then when it comes to my turn, I chain wheel effects together, or I target Nekusar or Fate Unraveler with Tainted Strike after a double wheel effect... ...As for target opponent loses the game (and adjacent effects)... ...I'm running Door to Nothingness in my shrines brew and Triskaidekaphobia (along with Tree of Perdition) in my Varragoth (Bloodsky Sire) assemble-the-silliness brew.
I hear the argument about "hold your removal". That assumes 2 things 1st that you have removal in your opening hand and 2nd that you draw the removal within the 1st few terms before they play their commander. Neither one of which are guaranteed. The general consensus it seems to be that players need to add more remove to their decks depending on their meta. At my lgs, Different people play different types of decks and hane multiple decks. so there is no discernible meta. At least to me. I'll admitt i don't try too memorize every deck i see. I do know cattail people tend to play certain types and levels of decks and i deal with them accordingly.
A lot of this is: Rule 0, talk about power level and be honest, and build your deck to be resilient. But mostly, everyone just needs to grow up and bring some good old-fashioned sportsmanship to the table. I used to want tons of cards banned back in the day, but now I feel like only the most game-warping cards should be banned, and then only if the answers are so narrow and/or so expensive that they are out of reach. I play almost exclusively in Naya colors. I used to get hit with Cyc Rift and Villainous Wealth all the time. So I made sure to add some answers. Sometimes I have them, sometimes I don't. But sometimes nobody hits a board wipe either, and that's just EDH for you. My regular group is fine with playing banned or silver-bordered cards with agreed upon conditions. And most people I've sat down with do try to have the power level talk, and sometimes that doesn't lead to a very balanced game, but that's also baked right into EDH to some extent. Nothing wrong with hashing it out afterwards, too--respectfully and objectively, of course. Everyone at the table can learn something from that and decide whether and how to recalibrate. That might mean a different combination of decks for the next game or different play patterns, or even some kind of agreement about certain card(s) or commanders. Rule 0 rules.
Some other comments: I play Rhystic Study, but My Mono Blue deck despite being Jin-Gitaxias is Built in the nicest way possible (Hard focus on Artifact copy, Mechanized Production, & making clues) that my LGS playgroups Don't even target it anymore since I don't run Jace or Lab Maniac or Thassa. They were salty at 1st but the regulars largely know it's a Janky copy deck not an evil Control deck. Tbh if Rhystic got banned I'd probably take it apart because most of the time drawing absurd cards is 99% of the fun of that deck. Especially since its my only Blue deck and my others never have Card advantage that strong. 2. With Gaeas Cradle I always Question another one. Storm the Vault is a double sided Enchantment/Land from Ixalan its 4 Mana to cast. When you have 5 Artifacts it flips and it flips into Tolarian Academy. Like straight out Add X Blue Mana where X is the # of Artifacts you control. Why is that legal? Especially since the flip condition is THAT Easy? Getting 5 Artifacts is nothing in Commander. Especially in Izzet with Treasure Access.
if you steal someone else's commander (say, with Shackles of Treachery), do they count as commanders under your control, for Deflecting Swat and Fierce Guardianship?
You really don't see how a cyclonic rift instantly wins the game? There's no "one strategy," but whenever it gets cast that person has enough of a board state that they can kill all their opponents that turn or the next. I've never seen a game go longer than two turns after a cyclonic rift, only because the person who cast it could only kill two opponents in a single turn.
where's your removal? why do you allow your opponent to have such a huge board state unchecked? how do you not see the cyclonic rift coming from a mile away when they pass turn with 7 mana untapped? maybe this is why i never run into this issue.
@@edhdeckbuilding you always keep enough removal for the table? You've never seen someone ramp up a bunch of Mana in one turn? Or play an instant on their own turn? I guess we're just playing in different formats.
My family plays In Garruk’s Wake as a board wipe, when we put it in a deck we think about how it could save our lives however any time I’ve played the card it was when my opponents have a board state that I can’t get through. I find that cyclonic rift is close to In Garruk’s Wake in that it can clear your opponents field allowing you to kill them the same or next turn.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said in this video. It seems that the pregame discussion is the most important thing here, not the cards. All of these are fine as long as everyone else is also playing at the same power level, whether lower or higher power. Just talk : )
Great Topic and discussion! I totally think free counter spells should be banned, those are ridiculous. I would ban any "free casts" there should not be anything you can cast for free in this game, its way too powerful. My play group played an alternate set of games of Magic where we restructured the mana cost across the board so no card needed to be banned, we used the formula of "each ability and each plus 1 of power costs 1 mana" example: a 1-1 creature with no abilities costs 1 mana but a 1-1 creature with an extra ability like lifelink or trample costs 2 mana. This eliminated overpowered creature cards. We then applied that to other card types: Mana rocks match the amount of mana you would receive to the cost so Sol Ring now cost 2 mana because you get 2 mana. We had the best games ever! We are now going to apply it to removing a creature, artifact or enchantment the removal spell mana cost must match the target permanent being removed. So more 1 drop exile spell to remove a larger creature or powerful 5 drop enchantment. Keeps the games balanced and makes you really think about strategy. Obviously this is just a set of house rules and would never take off in popularity but I can say that we had the best games of Magic ever with well thought out strategy based games that came down to the wire every time.
I run several of these cards, but I don't think I've ever committed any of the "commander crimes" that push them towards banning. I run Thassa's Oracle as a Hail Mary in an Izzet aggro deck that runs enough cantrips to make the oracle possibly helpful in the case where I get locked out of an attack centric strategy. I use Gaea's Cradle in a Kahmahl, Fist of Krosa deck, where even if it taps for ten, that basically is just saying my creatures get +6/+6 more this turn, and that's less outrageous than plenty of more popular green cards (I'm looking at you, Craterhoof). I actually used to run Rhystic Study in my Enchantress deck, but it was typically drawing me almost as many cards off just entering the battlefield than off it's actual ability, and it wasn't good enough to stay in the deck. I have started running it in one of my more cEDH leaning decks, but it's still not eveny best card draw there. Finally, I run Aether Reservoir in a deck that plans to storm off and be able to cast 20+ spells in a turn. I'm never taking out one guy unless their threatening to win and I can't stop them otherwise. Rather I'll usually wait until I have a few hundred life and finish the entire table at once. I think that was the point of this video, if we listen to our play group and value the collective experience over just doing what you want to do, if we talk about our expectations before, during, and after the game, if we use cards in the right way for our group's desired experience, then we'll never need a ban list. All cards, even the most busted, broken, and ban-worthy, can be played creatively, casually, and with no feel bad moments along the way. One of my favorite moments playing the game was while playing my very first commander deck at a new LGS with some guys I'd just met. I played a Paradox Engine and one of the guys said, "Hey, just so you know, that card is banned." Then he turned to the group and said, "Looks like he's using it for value, not for anything too busted. Does anyone have a problem with unbanning Paradox Engine for the day for this one deck?". No one did, and I had a great time. I can totally imagine that moment running commander for me forever, but instead, thanks to a group that was willing to adjust and adapt to the groups needs, it endeared me to the format and I rarely play anything else.
2:20 Well yes, but actually no. When the rules comity bans a card - lets say for land destruction, they will target the "best" of them to make players aware that land destruction is a topic that should be brought up with your play group. They will never ban ALL land destruction, they will only ban a card to tell the commander community that this type of card isn't in their opinion "good for the game"
The local card shop has at least a half dozen players playing demonic consultation + labman effects at their tolerian event. They advertise the event as "new player friendly" and "casual" but it's not. For some reason they have rules against extra turns and infect but not against literally the most powerful CEDH combo.
yeah i'd love to hear the logic behind playing the number 1 cedh wincon in casual commander. i'm not sure what that argument would be. if you can end the game on turn 2, how is that any different than cedh?
I would love to see you do a video on mistakes you think wizards has made in regards to cards they’ve printed. One example for me personally are the free spells if you have your commander. If it was just a free spell, no problem, but it just feels pushed, like “Oh if your playing commander, these are like 5 of the best cards cause they’re free to play if you play the format”
I do have a warrior tribal Najeela deck which I play in casual. I’ve found that while Najeela can run away with the game if left unchecked, that pretty much doesn’t happen if it gets removed once, for a multitude of reasons. 1) Paying five mana for a Najeela is usually really bad, you need at least 2, more like 3, warriors all with good attacks for it to be any good 2) When you end up recasting Najeela, most people have some kind of blocker that can kill it, this usually stops me from attacking, and if Najeela is my only attacker then your kind of screwed This isn’t to say that I think Najeela is bad, it’s definitely not, but it’s the kind of deck where (if attacking with Najeela/warriors is your win con) one board wipe slows you down drastically. TL;DR while I think Najeela is really good, if made as a casual attacks deck I think it’s a fairly balanced aggro deck that actually has some chance of rushing down your opponent in the early game.
Banning Dockside would exponentially impact mono-red and boros, I think it's time for a new rule in commander, a new section of the ban list called "Limited" Limited - Cards added to this list will be limited in to playing within their color-pie, for example, Dockside Extortonist may be played in either mono-red or any two color deck including red. Adding this section to the ban list will allow sculpting of cards that should exist within reason, expanding the competition and viability of a large number of decks rather than significantly lowering their power levels. Potentially this limited list would ONLY apply to non cEDH gameplay, by officially seperating the two we could clear up several misunderstanding and disputes regarding Rule Zero Restricting the splashy/over-played oppressive nature of these cards will only serve to expand decklist and feed more experimention and of course fun! Some examples could include (though I don't think it need to be this extensive): Limited - Rhystic Study Dockside Extortionist Smothering Tide Fierce Guardianship Force of Will Thassa's Oracle Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger Expropriate Laboratory Maniac Gaea's Cradle Cabal Coffers Necropotence
Finally, agree with the Points about Dockside 100%. So weird, never have any issues with that card. Playing it myself and also seen it in many Games. Sometimes it creates only a few Treasures, sometimes a ton. It is depends so much on your opponents. Sure, you can do crazy stuff in a High Power Deck, ID everybody plays Artifacts. But I see crazy stuff all the times. Commander is a broken Format. That is why people love it. But many people complain only about certain broken game aspects. But the ones they like are fine. Some guy complaint about how unfun, Mass Land Destruction is. Not that it happend to him that day. Played a very opressive and fast Deck, borderline CEDh. Turn One Jeweled Lotus + Commander and won later with an infinate Combo. :-D but Land Destruction is noooo fun. I don't care about both.
Soooo many of these cards when they showed up on screen, I was like ' yeah ban this it's so broken' I love your arguments. You've completely changed my mind on dockside!
I have what I would consider a casual Thassa's win con deck. It's Rograkh/Esior and the goal is to polymorph into leveler at the right time with the right set up, and while it's powerful, my deck has a like 30% chance of working and 70% chance of just killing me. I consider that casual. Something that's much more likely to fail spectacularly in a fun way for other players at the table.
Your argument against Dockside doesn't quite make sense, it's not that it combos with this or that or this, it's a ritual, that's better than every other ritual effect, and the mana doesn't just go away if you use it. It's not an effect that scales well for just 2 mana
@@edhdeckbuilding I have a Tergrid deck. It has never 100% 'done it's thing' in a single game yet, it always gets stopped by an opponent. The ability is fairly costed and interactable, and in return, the ability is powerful. Dockside is 2 mana, make 2+ mana that doesn't disappear. It's not a card that's designed to scale well, and thus makes it so damn good that it's played in so many decks, because it makes too much fkn mana for 2 mana!
I remember when I was at the game store the other day and there was a game with one person playing Erza well and three others were playing casual decks, and two of them were newbies as I recall to, and while they allowed the Erza player in the game they didn't care for it. However, in the response to one the person's rant one of those people who work at the store simply walked up to him and said "it is a three-on-one game after all". I should know, I was actually a part of that game as the Erza play.
As to the Kikki-Jikki thing... his existence actually makes Imperial Recruiter and Recruiter of the Guard "one card" combos in Boros, Izzet, and Jeskai decks. Recruiter gets Kikki, Kikki copies Recruiter, new Recruiter gets Felidar Guardian, Village Bellringer, Pestermite, or Deceiver Exarch (Recruiter of the Guard only gets Pestermite, but Imperial gets all 4), then you win.
@@edhdeckbuilding because most people that play EDH suck at magic and literally cant stop overextending and walking into a board wipe if it saved their lives. Crypt, Sol Ring, Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor are among the strongest cards ever printed in the game. Banned or restricted in the most broken formats, but completely expected in EDH. To say nothing of a multitude of other very powerful cards some of which (Cradle) you mentioned.
I have seen cyclonic rift win the game on that turn so many times. Dozens. I dont think it needs to get banned either, but if you're playing a tribal deck or something and you're reaching critical mass, you can cyc rift to win most of the time. I feel like every win I get with my zombie deck is with a cyc rift.
Notion Thief is dimir and makes its ability a lot harder to abuse without red. And, like Narset, it's ability stopped at restricting cards. Hullbreacher is mono blue and just got slapped in every Izzet wheel deck that existed, and then rewarded their play with 21 treasures. Give an Izzet player 21 treasures and you might as well go mow your lawn and do something productive for 20 minutes, tell them to come and get you when they win. I saw it that much it literally felt like people would mulligan down til they hit Hullbreacher, knowing all they needed then was a wheel effect to effectively win the game. It felt like Thoracle in a new body; I cast Wheel of Fortune(Thassa), hold priority and through your sighs I flash in Hullbreacher(D. Consultation).
They really, really need to formally split competitive and casual instances of EDH and its banlist. A lot of these could be banned in pickup casual EDH and improve it, and individual playgroups could then choose to unban them over time. By contrast, there's exceedingly little that you need to ban in cEDH, and it incentivizes people who like to invest in cardboard bullion to stop pubstomping.
I understand how pubstomping can be a problem, but a simpler solution than having seperate ban lists is effective rule zero conversations. I get it, there's always going to be differences in opinion of what's casual and what's not, but having that talk quick really might help cut down on some salt at the table. Then if somebody still pubstomps it might just be because they're kind've an asshole, and not because a relative power level wasn't established before the game.
@@dylanfarley8136 Two banlists, the cEDH one being perhaps a small handful of cards like time vault, is infinitely easier than trying to create something like a 1-10 system of analysis on decks' different power levels and making sure that everyone at the table both innately understands these levels of power and evaluation and has properly analyzed their own deck's level. In a casual pod of people where you can expect to play several times in a row, sure, you can just talk it out.
25:19 Because one makes green mana and one makes blue mana. For green it's pretty ez to get a lot of mana anyway. So having a cradle obiously is an advantage but there are other ways to get a huge amount of mana with green creatures that you'd need for the cradle anyway. But blue mana? There ain't a lot of ways to create that mana. Just establishing your board with artifacts while getting mana to disrupt? That's WAY better!
I always play cyclonic rift late game to end drawn out games and most of the time I win with it just sitting in my hand. You are absolutely right that whenever this is played it turns into a 3v1 but in all fairness I think it is a somewhat broken card but not a wincon. It would make more sense if they errated the overload cost to "roll a d12" but that's just my opinion. I will still run it because I can tutor the 2cmc with middle the mixture.
Context is everything: it is all about your playgroup. Mine is high level and although we may have some classically “uninteractive” games decided in 5 minutes or less, then we switch it up. Variety is good.
The problem with aetherflux reservoir is that it can hold the game hostage. I usually see scenarios where whoever has it is trying to combo off or has a boardstate that is obviously way better than the opponents, or is moving towards an obvious win con. Then it turns into 2 players needing to have an answer at the same time because 1 is going to have to sacrifice themselves to the reservoir trigger killing them for the player to not auto win. BTW, I always volunteer to die to the trigger in that instance because I can't stand continuing to play a game where it's obvious who the winner will be and we are basically stuck going through the motions otherwise.
That's my thoughts on Dockside exactly. It is 100% dependant on your opponents. Yeah, you can get 7 treasures on turn 1... but if that is what happens then your opponents are already doing insanely powerful and broken things and they shouldn't be upset that they're getting punished for that.
then you flicker dock that sack reanimed and have like 21 fast mana is already a problem but every one has it but dockside just trun the insanity to 11
The only thing I don't agree with here is Thassa's Oracle, specifically in the context of the Demonic Consultation combo. My issue is that it very nearly necessitates playing blue to beat it because once the Oracle trigger goes on the stack, you HAVE to counter it or the Consultation or you just lose. Everything else on this list either doesn't immediately win (for 3 mana with zero setup), or it leaves you a significantly wider window to respond/remove. And given the Oracle player is definitely playing blue, you may need MULTIPLE counterspell/stifle effects to deal with it. Even Lab Maniac requires draw setup/a third card. I know your slant is toward casual, but any card that essentially requires me to be playing a certain color or to forego an entire deckbuilding strategy (ETBs specifically, by playing Torpor Orb or Hushbringer, etc.) to have any chance of dealing with it is, frankly, a card that doesn't belong in the format.
I thought his stance on Labman was laughable at best. Like are you really drawing the line at someone drawing through 100 cards to win? Without leveler type effects (Dconsult, adnaus, inverter, ect) or an infinite draw combo (Niv + curiosity) its arguably harder to pull off than just attacking. I just dont get this "it goes against the spirit of magic" stance some of these guys have...
Maybe the rules committee needs to ban WotC from designing cards for commander. Would it send a message to Wizards if the rules committee banned every card released exclusively in commander products?
the other draw denials also where something the communitee had an eye on, but atm there are too less peaces to have it as a main strategie and/or overboard cards like hullbreach. my bannlist would be simple: unbann all cards, use rule 0 and dont fear to "ban" players if they draw the lines. So imo the biggest issue that exist in commander, are new enviroments. Too less support or helping guidlines for those situations. I mean we have some guides but it also changes drastically depending on who you ask.
I’m confused about the comments on najeela and urza not being “casual” commanders because to me being “casual” is all about how the deck is built. I have a najeela warrior tribal with no combos, no tutors, and no fast mana and it plays a very casual go wide tribal strategy. I also have a friend who plays urza with no stax, no tutors, and no fast mana either other than sol ring. Plays very casually and isn’t oppressive at all.
i played against "it's just warrior tribal" najeela decks. stomped everyone at the table in 6 turns. and i'm not sure what you're doing with your urza deck but you would have to purposely power it down as much as possible in order for it to be less than an 8.
Valid points I guess it just comes to peoples definition of casual we have a set rule that 8’s and lowers are fine as long as everyone’s decks are within one or two power levels
Aetherflux reservoir is definitely powerful, but as long as I still have two or three other opponents I can never risk using it because I could die right after. Mostly it's there to discourage people from choosing me for targets because if they ever do too much I can just end their turn in a hurry
I like a lot of your thought on cards people want banned, but on some of them I think you missed the point. Drannith magistrate for example. While powerful cards that turn things to archenemy are reasonable, they aren't reasonable at 2 mana. If a card at 2 mana makes you public enemy number 1, it needs to be questioned if it is healthy for the format
Idk how you can have an issue with opponents taking your turns, but meanwhile cyclonic rift basically does the same but for multiple players. You've forced them to replay their earlier turns over again so in essence you've taken over their turns.
If the worst thing that's happened to you on a turn someone took for you is a delay in your game plan, your opponents aren't doing it optimally. 99% of the time, a stolen turn is essentially, target player looses the game. They cast your removal on your own creatures, draw a bunch of cards and discard all the ones you've been holding onto for the perfect moment, and make the worst possible attacking decisions. You better hope you don't have a sacrifice outlet or a discard outlet, because if you do, you'll be without a board or a hand for a while. The worst is having any option to pay life for an effect, because they will pay it all and you just straight up loose, with no option to even try to respond. Even if they can't kill you, they can leave you completely tapped out and your other opponents get a free swing at you should they choose, because, unlike Cyclonic Rift, this only hurt you. I've never seen someone win after getting a turn controlled. I've seen as many games as not have someone come back to still win after a Cyclonic Rift.
One nice thing about Dockside is that it kind of counters all the crazy treasure making cards out there since most players will sac their treasures in response to the Dockside so you get less
I love this conversation, and I have always appreciated your stance on this subject. Honestly I'm the kind of player who will play against anyone's commander at least once, even if its a sure fire loss for me. Sometimes people want to try things and see how it goes, people brew a lot of decks being curious if something will work, or what a certain archetype looks like and what not. But when it comes to banning cards I err on the side of no bans, with that said I understand bans, and I have no ill will against them. A lot of people will say "Rule zero exists for a reason," and I agree, but there are a ton of players out there who don't have mentality or social IQ to understand what is and is not a good thing to play in groups. I guess this cycles me around to what you say, "what format are you playing?" I have played in LGS's a lot and there are so many people who play in public/casual game spaces who have no idea what their deck power is, or simply do not understand what casual play is, or how to assimilate into play groups and end up feeling alienated because their deck is too much for people having their own style of fun. The EDH community as a whole as a lot of soul searching to do when it comes to casual play, because more often than not I've realized people are not playing casual commander.
I have 3 commander decks. Their power levels are 9 for cedh, 7 for high power but still casual, and I picked up a precon that I’m gonna make a few changes to so that I can play at true “casual” tables.
@@InGovWeMistrust I'll be honest, I think the power level rating scale from one to ten is a pretty misunderstood method of rating a deck. I'm not saying you're like this, but more often then not when I have asked what power level someone's deck is people will often say somewhere in the range of five through seven, but a lot of times peoples decks are designed to win within five turns. A five turn deck is not a five through seven power level, I've resorted to asking people how many turns it takes for their decks to fire off and win a game, that has helped me understand where a lot of people are in terms of casual play. I like how you have your three decks, power, okay power, and then precon, thats a good system I think, I've even thought about just carrying a precon just so I know I won't be hosing anyone who is looking for an easy going game. I've got 25+ decks and only four of them have the classic wincon's, because I really don't like the "I've acquired my four cards to win, and now I win" sort of playstyle. I'm lucky to have a great playgroup who all have varying degrees of powerful decks, and we all have a lot of fun, but I think there are people out there who struggle to communicate well with others and often feel disenfranchised when they go to an LGS and get hated out of games because they don't understand how to communicate their playstyle with others. Commander requires a significant amount of communication in order for people to have fun playing in public spaces.
39:54 sometimes it feels like the "my buddy does X all the time" sentiment is what the rules committee goes off of when banning cards. to me, there isn't a single cards on the banlist that doesnt have an equivalent or better legal card to compare to.
Force of Will is better than Fierce Guardianship at the higher power levels since you may need to stop someone from going off before you even get your commander out. FoW gets much worse very quickly as the power level goes down. The issue with Tergrid is just what you said, there's no positive play pattern for the table, either the Tergrid player gets her out and the table is frustrated or she gets killed a bunch and that player can't play; I don't think she needs to be banned, but boy is she a design mistake. Overloaded Rift played well puts the caster so far ahead that the comeback is next to impossible, it is very much like Expropriate or Torment of Hailfire, the card may not win the game immediately, but odds are overwhelming that the cast won you the game. If Gaea's Cradle is played properly removal does nothing against it. If I had one in a deck, I would almost always play it as a ritual - don't drop it until you have a bunch of creatures and tap it for whatever effect immediately. This card should definitely be banned.
Totally agree with the Archenemy situation. I've cut cards from my decks because they drew so much hate I simply couldn't untap with them. Or they were so unfun the players complained too much, and I prefer a game where everyone has fun to one where only I have fun. The argument for "why do you run X in a casual game anyway" can be answered by the fact that it takes a certain level of empathy to see that your idea of "fun" is making other people miserable. People either don't understand that, or they simply do not care. People are selfish bastards, and a more aggressive banlist essentially protects them from themselves.
Yup, I once played an aura shards in my Arcades and was heavily targeted, even when I just destroyed two thing that were important, and was leaving the rocks and other stuff alone. I explained that my Arcades run ZERO removal (personal restriction, it is a heavily defense deck but it wins a lot xD), just run the aura shards like the ballista on top of the wall for combo pieces, and no tutor for it. Everybody said that they would blow up everything if they had that card in play..... So yeah, same card but different players.
Personally, I don't really like the design of Fierce, Swat, and Jeweled Lotus, but they never should be banned imo. Mainly for the reason that if they get banned, they will become completely useless as they can't really be played in any other format. I think Wizards needs to be really careful with free commander cards because I don't think they can be banned.
you dont understand that their are players who will play cyc rift and then recur it over and over n over again. ive literally played a 2 hr match and still won it but got cyc rifted so much that the match was just the most annoying thing ive ever played lmao
Think you might have gotten that Krosan Grip vs Necropotence scenario a bit wrong. As far as I understand it, the controller of Necropotence can decide to keep holding priority and just pay the 10-30 life. They will then start letting each activation resolve, thus passing priority to you so you can finally activate Krosan Grip. So if they're greedy, then Krosan Grip does very little. You only punish them if they're being conservative with their life/draws.
The issue with Hullbreacher was the treasures. Yes, Notion Thief and a wheel effect still leaves your opponents' hands empty, but it doesn't give you eleventy billion treasures on top of it. That kind of value puts you too far ahead for too little cost.
Cyclonic rift on a late game board generates enough value to convert into a win a lot of the time, but people could also be playing stuff that confounds a combo and needs rifted, or a wide board can get through enough damage if the opponents stuff is rifted.
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so again guys, all these cards are busted. i am not in anyway saying that they aren't good. we're talking about banning here. what does it take to get a card banned? certainly not combo potential, and certainly not that it's just a really good card.
EDIT: You can probably tell what my argument was from the replies. I admit defeat, just stop reiterating the same points and spamming my notifications 😩
Fundamentally, the issue in commander isn’t power cards, it’s people not setting expectations for pods. There are plenty of unfun, overpowered, or incredibly expensive cards which are still fine to run as long as the other decks running against them can compete. The other issue is the rules committee doesn’t differentiate between banned and banned as commander, which could definitely help with overall format health.
The answer is whatever annoys the rules committee the most in their games.
@@jacobgordon433 Or banned as a companion, just let me build the otter bro :'''''(
@@PerpetuallyTiredMillennial That's distinctly untrue. Whatever takes the place of the best card, or combo of cards, will by definition be weaker. It's a fallacy most anti-ban people make, and it's always wrong. It's fine if there are replacement staples out there, so long as they're at a reasonable level of strength.
The concern is never that there's a "best" card for a situation. It's that the best card is unhealthy for the game. Especially for people who don't have a regular playgroup that can self regulate. Sometimes, people are stuck with only being able to play with pods of random players.
The only time I've seen Thassa's Oracle in casual was a game my friend had where his opponent played a janky devotion to blue deck. He played it on a field with around 30 devotion and won off that, no turbo mill, no infinite blue pipped tokens, no infinite card draw, he just used it as a nice semi-tutor that occasionally won him the game if his game plan went well. Imagine that, the only time Thassa's Oracle being tolerable is when it's used as it was designed to, as a devotion payoff
I run it in a couple decks that draw a lot of cards but have easily disrupted wincons. It's basically, if I get locked out of my game plan and I've already drawn too many cards to feel comfortable, I at least still have a chance. I don't tutor for it, I don't combo with it, it's just a hail Mary when I'm probably going to loose otherwise. I think that was the point of this video, don't ban the cards just use them appropriately for your play group.
The cyclonic rift before their turn is usually used with a bunch of creatures or some other way to kill people on the board since they have no mana rocks, hate pieces, or blockers etc from what I have seen
As far as the “target opponent loses the game” cards. I actually once lost to Triskaidekaphobia. THAT WAS HILARIOUS!
Straight up one of my favorite cards haha, can't be mad if it gets you and can only be happy if you get someone with it
I was about to. Forced my opponent to draw an extra card. The turn after that I won. Was pretty close and epic
18:25 Wait... Isn't the main reason for banning a card is when a card retrospectively should have never been made?
But I think there is a big distinction that needs to be made between thoracle and lab-man.
Lab-man is balanced by needing to sit on the battlefield when you draw. Any instant speed interaction will lose you the game when that happens.
Thoracle will win you the game if your library is empty. There is no counterplay besides a stifle effect, but even that doesn't make you lose from it. Thoracle can be removed at instant speed in response to the trigger, and the player will still win the game with zero cards in library and zero devotion.
I remember when I first got into commander I thought infect should be 20. But now I’m fine with it being 10. In my playgroups, if someone plays cards with infect it can often trigger a 3v1 so that balances out the race to get to 10 poison.
I think infect should be changed to 20 (or always half your starting life total) only if/when we get a set where infect is a main mechanic and it gets alot of good tools. For now there's no reason to change it to 20 other than salt.
@@Libery300 Infect is a 7 on the storm scale, I'm not sure we'd be likely to see it unless we had a set real focused on Phyrexians again, hasn't been brought back since New Phyrexia
@@guyinthecorner0 even then (it's a matter of time since Phyrexians will obviously be the next end game bosses like Nicol Bolas), I don't think wotc wants Infect in Standard
Maybe in something like Modern Horizons 3 to support the archetype which is struggling to keep up with the new cards
In my years of playing Commander I’ve only had 5 total poison counters. That was a 3 player game and we still hanged up on that player and made him lose. I’m fine with it being 10, there’s just so little viable infect in the format that I think it’s fine if someone occasionally gets one shot by a skittles or something.
I've played against tergrid a good amount as my friend typically plays the commander. My group does play a lot of removal, more than the usual commander game. However, I usually run into the problem that Tergrid usually is heavy discard themed and by the time Tergrid is usually cast, we have no more cards in hand. Not bannable by any means, but I am giving out a huge problem that comes with those Tergrid decks
I know a guy that calls his Tergrid deck his salt-mining deck.
Tolarian Academy can win on turn 1, before your opponents can take a turn. Gaea's Cradle is super strong, but not sure it enables a turn 1 win.
Yup, there are a lot more zero-mana artifacts than zero-mana creatures.
I really doubt that you never saw a cyclonic rift used offensively.
Maybe I'm in a combat-heavy playgroup, but I usually see a cyclonic rift used when there is a large stalemate on board. When played at the endstep before your turn, it guarantees that you can swing your creatures for lethal.
The stalemate play is the killer for sure, it's all good til you got no blockers.
Why is that any different from someone dropping Craterhoof Behemoth when they have a huge boardstate or a big Finale of Devastation that gets you a Craterhoof or a Pathbreaker Ibex, or just casting Triumph of the Horde, or Master Warcraft, or Bond of Discipline, or Akroma's Will or... or... or...
Cyclonic Rift is a great card, but there are a million ways (actually better than Rift), to untap and Win when you have a big stalemate creature boardstate setup. There are a thousand ways to buff your guys, become unbloackable, tap opponents' boards, etc, that are cheaper than Rift. Rift is still amazing due to its versatility, but if the only reason people are salty about it because they got swung in on after their blockers were removed, well... that's just stupid. There are a million cards that functionally do exactly the same thing.
Those options don't effectively make your opponents go -800 mana.
@@LC-wv7tz I think you missed the point.
Cyclonic Rift can work offensively exactly like most of the cards you mentioned (except in a mono blue deck you can't run green, etc.), while
also being the best defensive card. The versatility is what makes it broken, more than just the board wipe.
@@canadianguy1578 Except that's not what anyone ever said. The complaint wasnt that Rift is a versatile card, it's that people untap and win after casting it. By the same token, Akromas Will I'd also very defensive. Rift is great, but not eve approaching broken compared to the other cards in this format.
Overall I heard a lot of similar arguments in this video: this card makes you the archenemy so it's more balanced because of that. I think that in general people save their super powered cards until they're ready to win with them. For example with Gaea's Cradle: you wait until you have maybe 10 or so tokens generated. Then you play the Cradle, tap it for 10+ mana, play a Finale of Devastation and get whatever creature (perhaps a Craterhoof, a Siegebreaker, or a Partbreaker Ibex) as well as the huge buff and haste that the Finale provides and proceed to win. That's just one quick and dirty example. It doesn't matter if you're archenemy the moment you play the Cradle, you won the game right then and there (in most cases I mean, obviously removal/counterspells exist but 'dies to removal' or 'gets stopped by a counterspell' is not a good argument)
i really think EDH needs a banlist for different player numbers 2, 3, 4, 5+
I guess my issue here is that you're relying so heavily on your personal experiences and especially so with how you personally use or would use these cards. If your playgroup and patrons don't abuse these cards then that's great, my personal playgroup has done a lot to currate our decks to not run combos and infinites and "I win" effects, but that's not why the ban list exists. It exists for people that play not in their regular playgroup. I know that when I run a Dockside in a deck, it's for the most part going to be fair and I'm not going to pair it with Deadeye Navigator, and my playgroup knows this, but when with other people that I don't know, I just always assume that Dockside will get sacrificed and reanimated or flickered multiple times and be abused, and I assume that based on my personal experiences with it. I envy your luck to not see these cards be abused in regular play because I almost always see them abused. Just today, had a guy using Ephemorate to flicker Dockside and then and the free cast of it he would target his Eternal Whitness to get back more flicker spells that would then be used on Dockside and looped that stuff every players turns.
I'm also stunned you don't see people often win after they cast and overloaded Cyclonic Rift. I can't remember the last time I saw that spell cast and the player didn't win in the next turn or two. It's usually used defensively to protect a swing against them because they have such a scary board state, and then because it's a 1-sided board wipe it just puts them at an even best spot relative to other players and then when it gets to their turn they swing with a nearly unblocked army.
I'm not really in favor of bans in general, but I do agree with you. He has a very narrow perspective here. I really like his deckbuilding content, but he's really been coming off an kind of pretentious in these opinion videos lately...which is upsetting because I can't stand commander's quarters after he started making this kind of content, so I'm worried I'm going to lose interest in this channel too...
@@ryansprenkle6356 Ha, yeah. I'm in a similar boat. I like the interesting deck ideas and such, but when discussing bans and unfun cards, you just gotta remember that most players do not have much restrain and they will abuse cards to their fullest capacity.
So I have a question that I'd like other opinions on. I have a thassa's oracle in an Aesi sea creatures deck. I use it because I have multiple permanents that have multiple blue pips and the card scrys me a lot usually for double blue. I understand that it's not optimal, but it seems to work very well for digging me further into the deck. I've never won with the alt wincon. Thoughts?
So I have one casual deck that runs thassa/lab as the win con, but it is in a completely convoluted way. It requires minimum 1 creature/enchantment that can have me put down lands (Sakura tribe scout), 1 creature/enchantment that can have me pick up lands (moonfolks), a way to produce extra mana by tapping lands(lotus cobra), retreat to coralhelm to reset my tapped land putdown creature, and then some way to draw off inifinite mana/land etbs (things like tatyova). I do that all with 2 enchantment tutors total in my entire deck. Its great for a weird strategy like that, giving it a win con, and the entire engine is minimum 5 pieces to win.
When you talked about Blightsteel Colossus, that reminded me of the last episode of Game Knights; I felt it kinda sucked for one of the player to have been ejected of the game, when they didn't even have a chance to do that much in the game
I’m happy they said they really wanted to have her back! I remember her saying JLK and Jimmy wanted to have somewhat lower powered decks for that episode. and yet everyone went off and yeah there was a blightsteel colossus.
Try something like Delirium (card, not effect). Fun watching someone's Blightsteel Colossus kill them during their own combat step.
It's not Blightsteel that played petty though. She got hated off of the board for a fair board wipe. They chose to play commander in a way that ignored threat assessment and instead went with drama. Like many other situations, a ban wouldn't have saved her in the end.
@@themochaman LOL Some people go crazy when you blow up their only red land. I thought it was funny that the Treasure (ramp deck) entered into a comical vendetta mode ;p
@@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299 haha! Don't get me wrong, I get it but geez. They practically gifted him that win after that though.
I completely agree with everything, specially the Dockside Extorsionist considerations. It is not a card that should be banned, but rather one of the cards that should be reprinted sooner than later, next to the azorius talisman. The only issue with Dockside is its price, being released only two years ago.
that and the free spell cycle from c20. they desperately need a reprint, not a ban. they're auto includes for nearly every deck (except the fog one, literally nobody plays it lmao), but deflecting swat and fierce guardianship are like $50+, deadly rollock is $30, and flawless maneuver is $17. they are amazingly good staples, but not a lot of people have the budget for or want to drop $60 on a counterspell, for example, for every single blue deck they have.
I'am using it in casual and get sometime like 3 Treasures. I mean that is awesome, but it is not game breaking if you do not abuse it like shit and use infinite combos.
Then unban Hallbreacher. That logic can be applied to any banned card which isn't always a good idea.
@@OverlyCriticalAnime You are right, cause Hullbreacher has got another issue und you can't compare it to other cards, with one ability in common and not paying attention to the absolutely broken one... Hullbreacher + Wheel = gameover and that's the same shit with Tergrid, but she doesn't have flash ...
@@OverlyCriticalAnime Comparing Dockside to Hullbreacher is absolutely ridiculous
I know some folks say that Drannith Magistrate is a cEDH-only card because of it shutting down commanders, but it does so much more. It stops Bolas's Citadel, Prosper, Elsha, and lots of other storm strategies that play off the top or from exile. That new Arcane Bombardment? The Magistrate stops it cold.
Dockside is more bannable than kikki because it’s much more efficient, since it provides the mana to go infinite with, whereas Kiki is 8-10 mana for the combo that you need to generate.
Dockside still isn’t bannable in casual, especially with new capenna making treasures ubiquitous so the gap between dockside and the next best cards has dramatically declined
3G Defense of the Heart. Three creatures an opponent controls gets you Kikki combo immediately. Can even use Forbidden Orchard to give them a token if an opponent only has two, tap land for mana on end step, win next turn
@@starcalf_ your opponents have to let your defense of the heart go off though for a turn cycle with all of them untapping, which is terrible threat assessment on their part. Defense of the heart is mediocre in high power/cedh because you invest 4 mana for someone to chain of vapor it for one.
Dockside was okay when it came out. The fact that more and more artifact Tokens got printed everywhere and that he on the floor pays mostly for himself makes him to good. And in the Ceiling gives ungodly amounts of Mana. He is like a Mana Geyser that costs 2. Or like a Dark Ritual with Replicate.
The unfair part is that it punishes nonland, non creature ramp.
Green is already a strong color and non reliant on artifact ramp. Dockside therefore punishes a necessary playpattern to keep up with other players, but in an uneven manner.
Think of it like Iona. One player is unharmerd but for the rest it sucks.
I don't think he is banworthy but I don't see playpattern where he adds to the overall fun of the Game.
thing is dockside never was anything close to fair sorry to say that that card is easyly an 4-5 mana ramp unless you are playing against 3 mono green decks it just got even more busted
@@noehonegger4624 Honestly, people are GOING to play mana rocks in almost every game, it’s not hard to get positive mana with Dockside
I disagree with demo saying dockside gives mostly no insane value by around t4… unless you Play vs mostly green the gas from dockside is nuts
Great video as per usual! I do actually run Thassa’s Oracle in one of my casual decks. It’s a Eligeth and Kydele deck where I do try and draw out all the cards in my library. I run Laboratory maniac and Thoracle just as wincons, but I have other ways to win too like Helix Pinnacle and psychosis crawler. I think having it in the deck may look scary but I think I play it in the more “casual” way I can
I'm of the same mind on most of the bannings and proposed bannings. Seems to me the prevailing mindset is "we want to do our thing without having to think of what anyone else is doing" when it comes to players calling for cards to be banned. There just needs to be more interaction overall instead of letting people battlecruise to victory. Also agree about Thassa's Oracle. A very strange call by the designers. It would possibly make sense if the text read, "You don't lose the game" rather than "You win the game." Then it could at least be compared to Platinum Angel, Lich, or similar effects.
My issue with Fierce Guardianship is that the caster can make plays on their turn, 1 for 1 your card and you had to tap lands.
It should allow the target's controller to untap lands equal to the mana value of the countered spell
I urge you to think objectively here. The idea of a "Social Ban" is useless, and shouldnt be used as a reason to not ban a card. Also saying that another card isnt banned so this card shouldnt be banned is a bad reason, or else by that logic a card would never be banned
If most people in the format dont want to play against a certain card, then it should be banned. If you and your playgroup are totally fine with playing against that card then sure, unban it for your playgroup! Thats the whole heart of the format! if you have a group you play with and a card you use gets banned, but everyone in the group is okay with you using it, then you can just keep using it. Someone without a usual playgroup doesnt have that opportunity
Since this is a casual format, the ban list should be for people that do NOT have a playgroup that they play with all the time. Which is exactly where a "Social ban" is completely useless. (Like with armageddon)
P.S. if you are casting cyclonic rift and not winning on your next turn or the turn after, then you have casted cyclonic rift at the wrong time haha
Have you even played commander? The whole format works on a social contract. That's literally what keeps it going. Saying a social ban is useless is truly wild.
It made sense for hull breacier to be banned because unlike the others that just steal draws, hull stopped both card draw and turned it into an insane advantage with wheels, getting you both mana and cards which alms and notion do not do. Plus the color restriction of white and dimir isn’t as easy to do instead.
yes but notion thief is the same insane advantage but you get to draw cards.
@@edhdeckbuilding I just think that in the decks that utilize a blue card like hull, they don’t need the card draw as much as they need the mana, especially with wheels since they can now play the cards that they drew unlike with notion. I think notion would be a lot more hated if it was solely blue.
@@edhdeckbuilding That time my friend had to takesy' backsie' due to responding to a Consecrated Sphinx draw trigger with Notion Thief and would have drawn their whole deck out and lost without a Lab Maniac in the deck... hmmm different times LOL :p
I totally agree with your take on Dockside extorsionist. At this point the people complaining are the ones that want one but dont want to pay $70-$80 for it (and when I say people, I mean the ones that only regurgitate what their favorite content creators told them).
If you are in a casual table and someone is comboing with Dockside, then that is not a casual player. And that is not really a problem with the card, but the person that says his/her deck is "casual".
If you are playing in a high tuned table, isn't that the point, high powered decks, and the same applies to cedh.
I mean, its still alot of mana even if you aren't comboing, though I may be bias because I like artifact centric decks so I happen to have 5 or 6 artifacts fairly early
Great you're on the side of not banning things and allowing the people playing the format to moderate it themselves! Firmly in that camp myself. I do appreciate the need to ban Flash for the cEDH community though, since many competitive players use the banlist as gospel. It's much easier for a casual group to rule 0 Flash in your deck than it would be for a cEDH pod to rule 0 ban it.
I remember somebody saying I made a mistake early in the game where I exiled a dockside extortionist in a chrome mox for a turn 1 ragavan because i didnt have a mountain. However i was gaining so much value off of ragavan by getting early treasure and getting peoples fetchlands and ramp spells on the top of the library. Dockside is really limited in early game, but is really used to close out the game IF you have an outlet like you said in the video! Great points you made!
Re: Cyclonic Rift (13:12) Your reasoning doesn't include on-board effects. Speaking as someone that's played a lot of mono-blue specifically, it can be challenging to combo off and win the game when your opponents have Smothering Tithe, Rhystic Study, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, and so many other hate pieces active on the board. The value of Cyclonic Rift is that it buys you a window where you can use the full value of your board to win the game without your opponents' board states getting in the way.
Re: Rhystic Study (24:12) Smothering Tithe :)
My biggest problem with Rhystic Study is that it is an incredibly efficient stax piece and an effective draw spell stapled onto one card.
I always pay the 1. There are some people in my LGS who refuse to pay the 1 and essentially kingmake whoever has it. It's not fun to watch people play suboptimal like that. And yes, I could talk to them. I have no problems telling people that I don't want to play against you, but should I be doing that? Where is the line between not having fun and having to gatekeep other people like that?
I suppose a lot of these card's problems would be solved if more people would calmly say "Hey, I don't want to play against that because I find it unfun. Can you switch to something else?"
I’m not sure the extent to which we should accept the logic (which is the most common argument presented here) that “this should never be played in non-CEDH, therefore it should not be banned”. This seems like the opposite of the obvious conclusion.
More to the point, it suggests that EDH is really two separate formats with totally different ban needs. Casual needs bans for cards that are: profoundly unfun(Tegrid); always overpowered (Urza); arbitrarily swing game results for drawing a single card that is good in any context (dockside, sol ring) and cards that break core constraints of a game of magic (infect; ramora; free spells). CEDH needs bans for cards that are ubiquitous or meta defining.
this is why i suggest that they should be two different formats. they have different names already for a reason.
@@edhdeckbuilding Have fun in defining what's "casual"
This is what I summed this video up to: there´s always a place for a card, even if it´s broken in some strategies. If you want to use it, learn to use it right, so the basic premise of "everybody having fun" is fulfilled.
If you bring out a bad time for everybody, hopefully you´ll notice yourself, or the playgroup tells you, so you can adapt. It´s a social thing we should enjoy after all.
If you´d have every sort of data of every match played, you could sort out the cards, that were most "bad-feelings-like". But how much emotion and memorable moments (comebacks maybe) would we miss out on?
Thank´s for all the videos btw, I really enjoy them :)
Literally JUST had the conversation the other day on why yawgmoths bargain is banned and not neceopotence. I ran bargain in a deck without the knowledge of its banning and it was the easiest win ever when I had it in play. The fact that you do at instant speed makes a world of difference! You cast your best spell?...in response, I essentially tutor for a counter spell. It deserves its banning over necropotence.
as someone that plays against tergrid pretty regularly.... seeing my opponent play cards like contamination, grave pact, or dictate of erebos its really hard to even play the game let alone just out the commander
In my Ur deck I is Cyc rift as a way to get past blockers or get rid of enchantments or artifacts that have effects that won’t let me swing out or use the abilities of my creatures. I also use it as an anti combo piece against my opponent. In a situation where they are trying to combo off I’ll overload it mid combo to basically interfere with the infinite they were setting up.
The win-con with rift that I see alot is looping it so no one can keep anything on the board. Rift, e witness, repeat. But I will add that so many powerful cards have come out recently that rift is no longer as unfun as other cards. So I would vote to not ban it.
You are wrong about Necropotence vs Krosan Grip - someone can indeed active it as many times as they wish before passing priority to their opponents.
I'm pretty sure you are wrong. As long as the spell is on the stack you cant activate abilities which necropotence is an activation
@@OverlyCriticalAnime krosan grip says abilities can’t be activated. Necropotence cannot be used in response. However, assuming it was a disenchant, original comment is correct. You may activate any number of times before passing priority.
@@Dev-fe7fk An incorrect reading of the comment. OP was referring to the scenario where Necropotence is activated once, then gripped. The reality is that Necropotence can be activated as many times as they want before priority is passed to the grip user. There's nothing inherent to split second cards that would allow you to interrupt priority.
@@CKarasu13 This is correct, until priority has passed it remains with the player who has it, so they can activate necropotence as much as they want, but not a single one will resolve until every other players has had a chance to respond in turn order and no one else adds anything to the stack.
Problem with hullbreacher is the quantity of treasure making. I think it wouldn't be ban Worthy If it said ability triggers only once each turn
30:20 You can hold priority put how many activations of necropotence you want on the stack, before your oponent can krosan grip. Why would anyone activate once and then pass priority?
Could you explain the rulings of that. I don't understand how necro can be activated when a spell with split second is on the stack.
@@dylanfarley8136 You can ativate it any number of times before krosan grip goes on the stack.
@@jollemol Can't an opponent respond to the first life spent, and then you're unable to activate necro anymore since it's not a mana ability? I understand that you're able to use necro any number of times until krosan grip is on the stack, but OP said that you can continue to activate necro even after krosan grip was cast. I don't understand how your comment answers that part of the question.
@@dylanfarley8136 nope, you have the option to hold priority when you do something. So let's say I want to use naru meha to double a spell, I cast the spell -> holding priority -> cast naru -> now I let people respond. Keep in mind none of my spells get to resolve until I pass priority. Also, if you cast a spell and pass priority but your opponents DONT respond, then the spell resolves before you get to do anything else on the stack
@@dylanfarley8136 also, op said "you can activate necro any number of times before your opponent can krosan grip" meaning you would activate necro, hold priority, activate necro, repeat as many times as you want. THEN you would pass priority and someone can krosan grip it
10) I don’t have a problem with Aertherflux or Blightsteel. I want the smoke. I built my Queen Marchesa to take advantage of those feelings. It’s a part of life and a good lesson.
9) What I don’t like about Fierce Guardianship is that it targets too many spells. If it were non-permanent spells, I’d be more comfortable with it. Instances and sorceries are the majority of kill spells and nonsense like extra turns anyways.
8) Strangely I have not yet played against Tergrid yet either. She just seems easy enough to play around like you mentioned.
7) God I hate that card. It’s a universal answer that can’t be skirted. It gets rid of the cards that are preventing the combo wins. Other board wipes are limited to creatures, artifacts, enchantments, or static planeswalker effects. Cyclonic Rift gets them all. Destroy effects can be stopped by indestructible, totem armor, and now shield counters.
6) I build my decks to where they can still function without the commander, but obviously they always work better with them, so Drannith Magistrate for me is annoying, but not bannable.
5) I hate “You win the game” wincons. All of them. Making someone lose the game has to be repeated multiple times. “You win the game” only needs to be done once and you don’t need to interact with your opponents in any way. Thoracle is just the worst example of the effect because it’s so difficult to interact with a player intentionally running out their library.
4) If Rhystic Study were designed today, it would have a “triggers only once per turn” clause on it. It’s annoying to be asked over and over and over again. All I ask is that people not be a jerk about it.
3) I think this is too much mana too fast, easily abusable with untap shenanigans, and it’s an effect on a permanent that is harder to remove. Putting land destruction lands in can help, but it’s extremely narrow and doesn’t interact with other cards. You’d have to include tutors to make sure you have access to it, and tutors are a separate problem altogether.
2) I don’t have an issue with Necropotence. Using life as a resource is how some color combinations are able to keep up with blue/green decks.
1) I don’t know how to fix Dockside Extortionist. I understand the experience is uneven, but I feel like the effect is undercosted at 2. Treasures have become a gigantic part of the game. I build Mardu decks and will finally be putting one into my first deck. It’s a Kelsien build that’s going a blink/untap route rather than the deathtouch route so I’ll be able to take greater advantage of Dockside’s effect.
i have a friend with cyc rift derangement syndrome, gets legitimately angry it exists, and it's the shit that makes you ask why, it's best in class, but so much other stuff is so much more frustrating
and it's never THAT good b/c we're casual. I cast it to win with a big boardstate. Same as a craterhoof or a venser -2, you know?
my one newer friend casts it badly every game and loses every time he does
card causes some kind of dementia in people
With both Drannith Magistrate and Grasp of Fate, you're likely removing or keeping away multiple threats from the board for usually at least one turn, *and* even if the opponents remove your Magistrate/Grasp, you've still forced them to use up a removal spell on it. Not only that, there are many situations where all three opponents aren't going to be likely to want the card removed. Maybe someone already has their commander on the board- in the case of Grasp, maybe you didn't take something from a player that they cared about too much. You can even use these politically- sometimes your opponents might even help you protect these cards.
I think painting these as an instant 3v1 scenario is just not accurate to the actual reality of how they'll be used. In case it's not clear- I don't think they should be banned, but I do think they're great cards.
I agree
Often also one person's permanent removed with Grasp of Fate will be much better than the other 2 players. Are they really excited to give that player his good card back?
Everyone in my meta has a cyc rift in each of their blue decks. More often then not, cyc rift is used as in answer to your credit. However, there has been countless times where The pod has been close to parity and one person rifts, then swings in and wins. It’s so good because it leaves the caster ahead at instant speed. I guess just thinking back, the card that has led to the most feel bads in my time playing has been the rift.
Cyclonic Rift I feel like is the set-up for an epic finish, but it still needs a bunch of accompanying pieces. I have a Nekusar (the Mindrazer) with the OG wheels pieces (and my own twists). I rift, then when it comes to my turn, I chain wheel effects together, or I target Nekusar or Fate Unraveler with Tainted Strike after a double wheel effect... ...As for target opponent loses the game (and adjacent effects)...
...I'm running Door to Nothingness in my shrines brew and Triskaidekaphobia (along with Tree of Perdition) in my Varragoth (Bloodsky Sire) assemble-the-silliness brew.
I hear the argument about "hold your removal". That assumes 2 things 1st that you have removal in your opening hand and 2nd that you draw the removal within the 1st few terms before they play their commander. Neither one of which are guaranteed. The general consensus it seems to be that players need to add more remove to their decks depending on their meta. At my lgs, Different people play different types of decks and hane multiple decks. so there is no discernible meta. At least to me. I'll admitt i don't try too memorize every deck i see. I do know cattail people tend to play certain types and levels of decks and i deal with them accordingly.
A lot of this is: Rule 0, talk about power level and be honest, and build your deck to be resilient. But mostly, everyone just needs to grow up and bring some good old-fashioned sportsmanship to the table. I used to want tons of cards banned back in the day, but now I feel like only the most game-warping cards should be banned, and then only if the answers are so narrow and/or so expensive that they are out of reach.
I play almost exclusively in Naya colors. I used to get hit with Cyc Rift and Villainous Wealth all the time. So I made sure to add some answers. Sometimes I have them, sometimes I don't. But sometimes nobody hits a board wipe either, and that's just EDH for you.
My regular group is fine with playing banned or silver-bordered cards with agreed upon conditions. And most people I've sat down with do try to have the power level talk, and sometimes that doesn't lead to a very balanced game, but that's also baked right into EDH to some extent. Nothing wrong with hashing it out afterwards, too--respectfully and objectively, of course. Everyone at the table can learn something from that and decide whether and how to recalibrate. That might mean a different combination of decks for the next game or different play patterns, or even some kind of agreement about certain card(s) or commanders. Rule 0 rules.
Notion thief and breacher are not even close to being in the same ballpark as each other. Breacher should have stopped before the create a token part.
"You just don't like stax pieces."
No, I love stax pieces, I just don't like an entire fucking stax deck jammed into a single card :P
@@dapperghastmeowregard Also on a blue creature for some ungodly reason.
I feel like with lab maniac, "removal wins games." kill lab maniac and they lose, thassa's is a little more difficult to get around
I completely agree that is the issue
Some other comments:
I play Rhystic Study, but My Mono Blue deck despite being Jin-Gitaxias is Built in the nicest way possible (Hard focus on Artifact copy, Mechanized Production, & making clues) that my LGS playgroups Don't even target it anymore since I don't run Jace or Lab Maniac or Thassa. They were salty at 1st but the regulars largely know it's a Janky copy deck not an evil Control deck.
Tbh if Rhystic got banned I'd probably take it apart because most of the time drawing absurd cards is 99% of the fun of that deck. Especially since its my only Blue deck and my others never have Card advantage that strong.
2. With Gaeas Cradle I always Question another one.
Storm the Vault is a double sided Enchantment/Land from Ixalan its 4 Mana to cast. When you have 5 Artifacts it flips and it flips into Tolarian Academy. Like straight out Add X Blue Mana where X is the # of Artifacts you control.
Why is that legal? Especially since the flip condition is THAT Easy? Getting 5 Artifacts is nothing in Commander. Especially in Izzet with Treasure Access.
if you steal someone else's commander (say, with Shackles of Treachery), do they count as commanders under your control, for Deflecting Swat and Fierce Guardianship?
Yes. If a card like Guardianship says “… control a commander…”, it can be opponent’s commanders too.
You really don't see how a cyclonic rift instantly wins the game? There's no "one strategy," but whenever it gets cast that person has enough of a board state that they can kill all their opponents that turn or the next. I've never seen a game go longer than two turns after a cyclonic rift, only because the person who cast it could only kill two opponents in a single turn.
where's your removal? why do you allow your opponent to have such a huge board state unchecked? how do you not see the cyclonic rift coming from a mile away when they pass turn with 7 mana untapped? maybe this is why i never run into this issue.
@@edhdeckbuilding you always keep enough removal for the table? You've never seen someone ramp up a bunch of Mana in one turn? Or play an instant on their own turn?
I guess we're just playing in different formats.
My family plays In Garruk’s Wake as a board wipe, when we put it in a deck we think about how it could save our lives however any time I’ve played the card it was when my opponents have a board state that I can’t get through. I find that cyclonic rift is close to In Garruk’s Wake in that it can clear your opponents field allowing you to kill them the same or next turn.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said in this video. It seems that the pregame discussion is the most important thing here, not the cards. All of these are fine as long as everyone else is also playing at the same power level, whether lower or higher power. Just talk : )
Great Topic and discussion! I totally think free counter spells should be banned, those are ridiculous. I would ban any "free casts" there should not be anything you can cast for free in this game, its way too powerful. My play group played an alternate set of games of Magic where we restructured the mana cost across the board so no card needed to be banned, we used the formula of "each ability and each plus 1 of power costs 1 mana" example: a 1-1 creature with no abilities costs 1 mana but a 1-1 creature with an extra ability like lifelink or trample costs 2 mana. This eliminated overpowered creature cards. We then applied that to other card types: Mana rocks match the amount of mana you would receive to the cost so Sol Ring now cost 2 mana because you get 2 mana. We had the best games ever! We are now going to apply it to removing a creature, artifact or enchantment the removal spell mana cost must match the target permanent being removed. So more 1 drop exile spell to remove a larger creature or powerful 5 drop enchantment. Keeps the games balanced and makes you really think about strategy. Obviously this is just a set of house rules and would never take off in popularity but I can say that we had the best games of Magic ever with well thought out strategy based games that came down to the wire every time.
I run several of these cards, but I don't think I've ever committed any of the "commander crimes" that push them towards banning. I run Thassa's Oracle as a Hail Mary in an Izzet aggro deck that runs enough cantrips to make the oracle possibly helpful in the case where I get locked out of an attack centric strategy. I use Gaea's Cradle in a Kahmahl, Fist of Krosa deck, where even if it taps for ten, that basically is just saying my creatures get +6/+6 more this turn, and that's less outrageous than plenty of more popular green cards (I'm looking at you, Craterhoof). I actually used to run Rhystic Study in my Enchantress deck, but it was typically drawing me almost as many cards off just entering the battlefield than off it's actual ability, and it wasn't good enough to stay in the deck. I have started running it in one of my more cEDH leaning decks, but it's still not eveny best card draw there. Finally, I run Aether Reservoir in a deck that plans to storm off and be able to cast 20+ spells in a turn. I'm never taking out one guy unless their threatening to win and I can't stop them otherwise. Rather I'll usually wait until I have a few hundred life and finish the entire table at once.
I think that was the point of this video, if we listen to our play group and value the collective experience over just doing what you want to do, if we talk about our expectations before, during, and after the game, if we use cards in the right way for our group's desired experience, then we'll never need a ban list. All cards, even the most busted, broken, and ban-worthy, can be played creatively, casually, and with no feel bad moments along the way.
One of my favorite moments playing the game was while playing my very first commander deck at a new LGS with some guys I'd just met. I played a Paradox Engine and one of the guys said, "Hey, just so you know, that card is banned." Then he turned to the group and said, "Looks like he's using it for value, not for anything too busted. Does anyone have a problem with unbanning Paradox Engine for the day for this one deck?". No one did, and I had a great time. I can totally imagine that moment running commander for me forever, but instead, thanks to a group that was willing to adjust and adapt to the groups needs, it endeared me to the format and I rarely play anything else.
2:20
Well yes, but actually no. When the rules comity bans a card - lets say for land destruction, they will target the "best" of them to make players aware that land destruction is a topic that should be brought up with your play group. They will never ban ALL land destruction, they will only ban a card to tell the commander community that this type of card isn't in their opinion "good for the game"
The local card shop has at least a half dozen players playing demonic consultation + labman effects at their tolerian event. They advertise the event as "new player friendly" and "casual" but it's not. For some reason they have rules against extra turns and infect but not against literally the most powerful CEDH combo.
yeah i'd love to hear the logic behind playing the number 1 cedh wincon in casual commander. i'm not sure what that argument would be. if you can end the game on turn 2, how is that any different than cedh?
I would love to see you do a video on mistakes you think wizards has made in regards to cards they’ve printed. One example for me personally are the free spells if you have your commander. If it was just a free spell, no problem, but it just feels pushed, like “Oh if your playing commander, these are like 5 of the best cards cause they’re free to play if you play the format”
I do have a warrior tribal Najeela deck which I play in casual. I’ve found that while Najeela can run away with the game if left unchecked, that pretty much doesn’t happen if it gets removed once, for a multitude of reasons.
1) Paying five mana for a Najeela is usually really bad, you need at least 2, more like 3, warriors all with good attacks for it to be any good
2) When you end up recasting Najeela, most people have some kind of blocker that can kill it, this usually stops me from attacking, and if Najeela is my only attacker then your kind of screwed
This isn’t to say that I think Najeela is bad, it’s definitely not, but it’s the kind of deck where (if attacking with Najeela/warriors is your win con) one board wipe slows you down drastically.
TL;DR while I think Najeela is really good, if made as a casual attacks deck I think it’s a fairly balanced aggro deck that actually has some chance of rushing down your opponent in the early game.
Banning Dockside would exponentially impact mono-red and boros, I think it's time for a new rule in commander, a new section of the ban list called "Limited"
Limited - Cards added to this list will be limited in to playing within their color-pie, for example, Dockside Extortonist may be played in either mono-red or any two color deck including red. Adding this section to the ban list will allow sculpting of cards that should exist within reason, expanding the competition and viability of a large number of decks rather than significantly lowering their power levels.
Potentially this limited list would ONLY apply to non cEDH gameplay, by officially seperating the two we could clear up several misunderstanding and disputes regarding Rule Zero
Restricting the splashy/over-played oppressive nature of these cards will only serve to expand decklist and feed more experimention and of course fun!
Some examples could include (though I don't think it need to be this extensive):
Limited -
Rhystic Study
Dockside Extortionist
Smothering Tide
Fierce Guardianship
Force of Will
Thassa's Oracle
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Expropriate
Laboratory Maniac
Gaea's Cradle
Cabal Coffers
Necropotence
I feel you on sundering titan, my favorite mtg card is Braids cabal minion and it's also banned.
Finally, agree with the Points about Dockside 100%. So weird, never have any issues with that card. Playing it myself and also seen it in many Games. Sometimes it creates only a few Treasures, sometimes a ton. It is depends so much on your opponents. Sure, you can do crazy stuff in a High Power Deck, ID everybody plays Artifacts. But I see crazy stuff all the times. Commander is a broken Format. That is why people love it.
But many people complain only about certain broken game aspects. But the ones they like are fine.
Some guy complaint about how unfun, Mass Land Destruction is. Not that it happend to him that day. Played a very opressive and fast Deck, borderline CEDh. Turn One Jeweled Lotus + Commander and won later with an infinate Combo. :-D but Land Destruction is noooo fun.
I don't care about both.
"Unicorn tribal kinda sucks" Me: Cries in Lathiel, the Bountious Dawn
Soooo many of these cards when they showed up on screen, I was like ' yeah ban this it's so broken' I love your arguments. You've completely changed my mind on dockside!
I have what I would consider a casual Thassa's win con deck. It's Rograkh/Esior and the goal is to polymorph into leveler at the right time with the right set up, and while it's powerful, my deck has a like 30% chance of working and 70% chance of just killing me. I consider that casual. Something that's much more likely to fail spectacularly in a fun way for other players at the table.
Your argument against Dockside doesn't quite make sense, it's not that it combos with this or that or this, it's a ritual, that's better than every other ritual effect, and the mana doesn't just go away if you use it. It's not an effect that scales well for just 2 mana
never said it wasn't a great card. how many great cards are their in commander? we're talking about banning here.
@@edhdeckbuilding I have a Tergrid deck. It has never 100% 'done it's thing' in a single game yet, it always gets stopped by an opponent. The ability is fairly costed and interactable, and in return, the ability is powerful. Dockside is 2 mana, make 2+ mana that doesn't disappear. It's not a card that's designed to scale well, and thus makes it so damn good that it's played in so many decks, because it makes too much fkn mana for 2 mana!
I remember when I was at the game store the other day and there was a game with one person playing Erza well and three others were playing casual decks, and two of them were newbies as I recall to, and while they allowed the Erza player in the game they didn't care for it. However, in the response to one the person's rant one of those people who work at the store simply walked up to him and said "it is a three-on-one game after all". I should know, I was actually a part of that game as the Erza play.
As to the Kikki-Jikki thing... his existence actually makes Imperial Recruiter and Recruiter of the Guard "one card" combos in Boros, Izzet, and Jeskai decks.
Recruiter gets Kikki, Kikki copies Recruiter, new Recruiter gets Felidar Guardian, Village Bellringer, Pestermite, or Deceiver Exarch (Recruiter of the Guard only gets Pestermite, but Imperial gets all 4), then you win.
and no one calls for that card to be banned. weird.
@@edhdeckbuilding because most people that play EDH suck at magic and literally cant stop overextending and walking into a board wipe if it saved their lives.
Crypt, Sol Ring, Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor are among the strongest cards ever printed in the game. Banned or restricted in the most broken formats, but completely expected in EDH. To say nothing of a multitude of other very powerful cards some of which (Cradle) you mentioned.
I normally have the opposite situation with grasp of fate- one thing under is so scary nobody wants to destroy it
I have seen cyclonic rift win the game on that turn so many times. Dozens. I dont think it needs to get banned either, but if you're playing a tribal deck or something and you're reaching critical mass, you can cyc rift to win most of the time. I feel like every win I get with my zombie deck is with a cyc rift.
Notion Thief is dimir and makes its ability a lot harder to abuse without red. And, like Narset, it's ability stopped at restricting cards. Hullbreacher is mono blue and just got slapped in every Izzet wheel deck that existed, and then rewarded their play with 21 treasures. Give an Izzet player 21 treasures and you might as well go mow your lawn and do something productive for 20 minutes, tell them to come and get you when they win.
I saw it that much it literally felt like people would mulligan down til they hit Hullbreacher, knowing all they needed then was a wheel effect to effectively win the game.
It felt like Thoracle in a new body; I cast Wheel of Fortune(Thassa), hold priority and through your sighs I flash in Hullbreacher(D. Consultation).
Yawgmoth's bargain is a straight up trade of life for cards at instant speed. Necropotence you have to wait until your next end step to get the cards.
They really, really need to formally split competitive and casual instances of EDH and its banlist. A lot of these could be banned in pickup casual EDH and improve it, and individual playgroups could then choose to unban them over time. By contrast, there's exceedingly little that you need to ban in cEDH, and it incentivizes people who like to invest in cardboard bullion to stop pubstomping.
I understand how pubstomping can be a problem, but a simpler solution than having seperate ban lists is effective rule zero conversations. I get it, there's always going to be differences in opinion of what's casual and what's not, but having that talk quick really might help cut down on some salt at the table. Then if somebody still pubstomps it might just be because they're kind've an asshole, and not because a relative power level wasn't established before the game.
@@dylanfarley8136 Two banlists, the cEDH one being perhaps a small handful of cards like time vault, is infinitely easier than trying to create something like a 1-10 system of analysis on decks' different power levels and making sure that everyone at the table both innately understands these levels of power and evaluation and has properly analyzed their own deck's level. In a casual pod of people where you can expect to play several times in a row, sure, you can just talk it out.
Great video of non banding them this was fun to listen to your ideas on why they shouldn't be band. KEEP STAYING PAWZITIVE DEMO
25:19
Because one makes green mana and one makes blue mana.
For green it's pretty ez to get a lot of mana anyway. So having a cradle obiously is an advantage but there are other ways to get a huge amount of mana with green creatures that you'd need for the cradle anyway.
But blue mana? There ain't a lot of ways to create that mana. Just establishing your board with artifacts while getting mana to disrupt? That's WAY better!
I always play cyclonic rift late game to end drawn out games and most of the time I win with it just sitting in my hand. You are absolutely right that whenever this is played it turns into a 3v1 but in all fairness I think it is a somewhat broken card but not a wincon. It would make more sense if they errated the overload cost to "roll a d12" but that's just my opinion. I will still run it because I can tutor the 2cmc with middle the mixture.
I'm on your side about dockside this whole issue with it has been so strange to me.
Context is everything: it is all about your playgroup. Mine is high level and although we may have some classically “uninteractive” games decided in 5 minutes or less, then we switch it up. Variety is good.
The problem with aetherflux reservoir is that it can hold the game hostage. I usually see scenarios where whoever has it is trying to combo off or has a boardstate that is obviously way better than the opponents, or is moving towards an obvious win con. Then it turns into 2 players needing to have an answer at the same time because 1 is going to have to sacrifice themselves to the reservoir trigger killing them for the player to not auto win. BTW, I always volunteer to die to the trigger in that instance because I can't stand continuing to play a game where it's obvious who the winner will be and we are basically stuck going through the motions otherwise.
What do you think about sylvan library?
That's my thoughts on Dockside exactly. It is 100% dependant on your opponents. Yeah, you can get 7 treasures on turn 1... but if that is what happens then your opponents are already doing insanely powerful and broken things and they shouldn't be upset that they're getting punished for that.
Until you have xorn, an acedemy manufacturer, and a goldspan dragon in play with Prosper 🤣
then you flicker dock that sack reanimed and have like 21
fast mana is already a problem but every one has it but dockside just trun the insanity to 11
The only thing I don't agree with here is Thassa's Oracle, specifically in the context of the Demonic Consultation combo. My issue is that it very nearly necessitates playing blue to beat it because once the Oracle trigger goes on the stack, you HAVE to counter it or the Consultation or you just lose. Everything else on this list either doesn't immediately win (for 3 mana with zero setup), or it leaves you a significantly wider window to respond/remove. And given the Oracle player is definitely playing blue, you may need MULTIPLE counterspell/stifle effects to deal with it. Even Lab Maniac requires draw setup/a third card. I know your slant is toward casual, but any card that essentially requires me to be playing a certain color or to forego an entire deckbuilding strategy (ETBs specifically, by playing Torpor Orb or Hushbringer, etc.) to have any chance of dealing with it is, frankly, a card that doesn't belong in the format.
I thought his stance on Labman was laughable at best. Like are you really drawing the line at someone drawing through 100 cards to win? Without leveler type effects (Dconsult, adnaus, inverter, ect) or an infinite draw combo (Niv + curiosity) its arguably harder to pull off than just attacking. I just dont get this "it goes against the spirit of magic" stance some of these guys have...
Maybe the rules committee needs to ban WotC from designing cards for commander. Would it send a message to Wizards if the rules committee banned every card released exclusively in commander products?
the other draw denials also where something the communitee had an eye on, but atm there are too less peaces to have it as a main strategie and/or overboard cards like hullbreach.
my bannlist would be simple: unbann all cards, use rule 0 and dont fear to "ban" players if they draw the lines.
So imo the biggest issue that exist in commander, are new enviroments. Too less support or helping guidlines for those situations.
I mean we have some guides but it also changes drastically depending on who you ask.
I’m confused about the comments on najeela and urza not being “casual” commanders because to me being “casual” is all about how the deck is built. I have a najeela warrior tribal with no combos, no tutors, and no fast mana and it plays a very casual go wide tribal strategy. I also have a friend who plays urza with no stax, no tutors, and no fast mana either other than sol ring. Plays very casually and isn’t oppressive at all.
i played against "it's just warrior tribal" najeela decks. stomped everyone at the table in 6 turns. and i'm not sure what you're doing with your urza deck but you would have to purposely power it down as much as possible in order for it to be less than an 8.
Valid points I guess it just comes to peoples definition of casual we have a set rule that 8’s and lowers are fine as long as everyone’s decks are within one or two power levels
Aetherflux reservoir is definitely powerful, but as long as I still have two or three other opponents I can never risk using it because I could die right after. Mostly it's there to discourage people from choosing me for targets because if they ever do too much I can just end their turn in a hurry
I like a lot of your thought on cards people want banned, but on some of them I think you missed the point. Drannith magistrate for example. While powerful cards that turn things to archenemy are reasonable, they aren't reasonable at 2 mana. If a card at 2 mana makes you public enemy number 1, it needs to be questioned if it is healthy for the format
Idk how you can have an issue with opponents taking your turns, but meanwhile cyclonic rift basically does the same but for multiple players. You've forced them to replay their earlier turns over again so in essence you've taken over their turns.
If the worst thing that's happened to you on a turn someone took for you is a delay in your game plan, your opponents aren't doing it optimally. 99% of the time, a stolen turn is essentially, target player looses the game. They cast your removal on your own creatures, draw a bunch of cards and discard all the ones you've been holding onto for the perfect moment, and make the worst possible attacking decisions. You better hope you don't have a sacrifice outlet or a discard outlet, because if you do, you'll be without a board or a hand for a while. The worst is having any option to pay life for an effect, because they will pay it all and you just straight up loose, with no option to even try to respond. Even if they can't kill you, they can leave you completely tapped out and your other opponents get a free swing at you should they choose, because, unlike Cyclonic Rift, this only hurt you.
I've never seen someone win after getting a turn controlled. I've seen as many games as not have someone come back to still win after a Cyclonic Rift.
One nice thing about Dockside is that it kind of counters all the crazy treasure making cards out there since most players will sac their treasures in response to the Dockside so you get less
Dockside itself is a crazy treasure making card, he is part of the problem.
Even a Najeela “casual” is oppressive, I know I have a CEDH and Casual version where I have 150 cards and swap a bunch depending on the situation!
I love this conversation, and I have always appreciated your stance on this subject. Honestly I'm the kind of player who will play against anyone's commander at least once, even if its a sure fire loss for me. Sometimes people want to try things and see how it goes, people brew a lot of decks being curious if something will work, or what a certain archetype looks like and what not. But when it comes to banning cards I err on the side of no bans, with that said I understand bans, and I have no ill will against them. A lot of people will say "Rule zero exists for a reason," and I agree, but there are a ton of players out there who don't have mentality or social IQ to understand what is and is not a good thing to play in groups. I guess this cycles me around to what you say, "what format are you playing?" I have played in LGS's a lot and there are so many people who play in public/casual game spaces who have no idea what their deck power is, or simply do not understand what casual play is, or how to assimilate into play groups and end up feeling alienated because their deck is too much for people having their own style of fun. The EDH community as a whole as a lot of soul searching to do when it comes to casual play, because more often than not I've realized people are not playing casual commander.
I have 3 commander decks. Their power levels are 9 for cedh, 7 for high power but still casual, and I picked up a precon that I’m gonna make a few changes to so that I can play at true “casual” tables.
@@InGovWeMistrust I'll be honest, I think the power level rating scale from one to ten is a pretty misunderstood method of rating a deck. I'm not saying you're like this, but more often then not when I have asked what power level someone's deck is people will often say somewhere in the range of five through seven, but a lot of times peoples decks are designed to win within five turns. A five turn deck is not a five through seven power level, I've resorted to asking people how many turns it takes for their decks to fire off and win a game, that has helped me understand where a lot of people are in terms of casual play. I like how you have your three decks, power, okay power, and then precon, thats a good system I think, I've even thought about just carrying a precon just so I know I won't be hosing anyone who is looking for an easy going game. I've got 25+ decks and only four of them have the classic wincon's, because I really don't like the "I've acquired my four cards to win, and now I win" sort of playstyle. I'm lucky to have a great playgroup who all have varying degrees of powerful decks, and we all have a lot of fun, but I think there are people out there who struggle to communicate well with others and often feel disenfranchised when they go to an LGS and get hated out of games because they don't understand how to communicate their playstyle with others. Commander requires a significant amount of communication in order for people to have fun playing in public spaces.
I swapped tergrid to my commander because everyone at the table was SO strong they talked me into it. I became a threat immediately.
39:54 sometimes it feels like the "my buddy does X all the time" sentiment is what the rules committee goes off of when banning cards. to me, there isn't a single cards on the banlist that doesnt have an equivalent or better legal card to compare to.
Hullbreacher turns those cards into gas with that fresh hand, it's also 1 color not 2
Force of Will is better than Fierce Guardianship at the higher power levels since you may need to stop someone from going off before you even get your commander out. FoW gets much worse very quickly as the power level goes down.
The issue with Tergrid is just what you said, there's no positive play pattern for the table, either the Tergrid player gets her out and the table is frustrated or she gets killed a bunch and that player can't play; I don't think she needs to be banned, but boy is she a design mistake.
Overloaded Rift played well puts the caster so far ahead that the comeback is next to impossible, it is very much like Expropriate or Torment of Hailfire, the card may not win the game immediately, but odds are overwhelming that the cast won you the game.
If Gaea's Cradle is played properly removal does nothing against it. If I had one in a deck, I would almost always play it as a ritual - don't drop it until you have a bunch of creatures and tap it for whatever effect immediately. This card should definitely be banned.
Totally agree with the Archenemy situation. I've cut cards from my decks because they drew so much hate I simply couldn't untap with them. Or they were so unfun the players complained too much, and I prefer a game where everyone has fun to one where only I have fun.
The argument for "why do you run X in a casual game anyway" can be answered by the fact that it takes a certain level of empathy to see that your idea of "fun" is making other people miserable. People either don't understand that, or they simply do not care. People are selfish bastards, and a more aggressive banlist essentially protects them from themselves.
Yup, I once played an aura shards in my Arcades and was heavily targeted, even when I just destroyed two thing that were important, and was leaving the rocks and other stuff alone. I explained that my Arcades run ZERO removal (personal restriction, it is a heavily defense deck but it wins a lot xD), just run the aura shards like the ballista on top of the wall for combo pieces, and no tutor for it. Everybody said that they would blow up everything if they had that card in play..... So yeah, same card but different players.
Personally, I don't really like the design of Fierce, Swat, and Jeweled Lotus, but they never should be banned imo. Mainly for the reason that if they get banned, they will become completely useless as they can't really be played in any other format. I think Wizards needs to be really careful with free commander cards because I don't think they can be banned.
you dont understand that their are players who will play cyc rift and then recur it over and over n over again. ive literally played a 2 hr match and still won it but got cyc rifted so much that the match was just the most annoying thing ive ever played lmao
graveyard hate? a must in the format. also, why are you playing with these people?
I wish you would be on the rule committee! I agree with almost all of your opinions. I think less bans is better and just communicating is key.
Think you might have gotten that Krosan Grip vs Necropotence scenario a bit wrong. As far as I understand it, the controller of Necropotence can decide to keep holding priority and just pay the 10-30 life. They will then start letting each activation resolve, thus passing priority to you so you can finally activate Krosan Grip.
So if they're greedy, then Krosan Grip does very little. You only punish them if they're being conservative with their life/draws.
The issue with Hullbreacher was the treasures. Yes, Notion Thief and a wheel effect still leaves your opponents' hands empty, but it doesn't give you eleventy billion treasures on top of it. That kind of value puts you too far ahead for too little cost.
a treasure is better than drawing cards?
@@edhdeckbuilding for one less mana and in mono blue colors? Yes.
Cyclonic rift on a late game board generates enough value to convert into a win a lot of the time, but people could also be playing stuff that confounds a combo and needs rifted, or a wide board can get through enough damage if the opponents stuff is rifted.
It's totally not bannable though. It's totally fine. It's 7 mana.
Hullbreacher is much better than the other ones