Hey, Luke here. I wanted to say how immensley humbled I am by Ed's comments about me and our friendship. It means a huge amount to me and I could barely believe what I was hearing. It's a slightly surreal experience to have your name become a descriptor synonymous with positivity, but it really means a lot to me. Ed for his part is a wonderful friend for me as well and has helped me in countless ways, especially this year with ontroducing me to Dr K and his videos. I hope all of you out there, reading this have a great day and you can find your 'Luke' or even group of close friends who care about you in the way that I and Ed care for each other
Which minute did he talk about you? Give us the time for those who enjoy wholesomeness pr0n. Also, wish you the best. You seem like wonderful human beings talking about each other like that.
@@ruthtrentwood3374 don't know an exact time, because I'm watching the video now and past it, but it's around 1 hour 10 mins in when Ed starts talking about his uni experience :)
In my experience, people often claim to want men to be open and vulnerable, but they don't incentivize that kind of behavior in the slightest, they incentivize the opposite. I think people (particularly women in a romantic setting) *want to want* men who are vulnerable and emotionally open, but when it actually happens, they can't help but perceive them as weak and kind of pathetic instead. People like the idea of men being emotionally vulnerable much more than the reality of men being emotionally vulnerable.
i think part of this is the fact that sometimes people cant separate romantic feelings, sexual feelings and emotional bonds to other people. so what happens is that showing emotions can be something that for example doesnt help with sexual attraction but does help the emotional bond. because those are all the same to some it ruins both of them. am i making any sense? on the other hand if they could just see that moment of vulnerability as a bonding moment it could help the sexual part too because at that time those two people are connecting and sex is ultimately about connecting at least inside a relationships. but when someone is attracted to powerful and confident people and someone is vulnerable we get scared but those things dont in fact cancel each other out. those things can coexcist in one person. im rambling a bit now, just trying to make sense of this
While I think that’s true, I also think the opposite is true. I have many male friends who are open with their emotions and vulnerable with me, and I absolutely cherish them. I think one of the big reasons this happens is because people are learning how to resist societal norms and it’s really fucking hard to do. I have noticed that my male friends who are openly vulnerable grew up surrounded/raised by positive female role models, and happened to grow up not even learning traditional male stereotypes. Unfortunately, it seems to be uncommon to find people who are very understanding or empathetic, which is why that problem is so common.
My experience has been different, I've had relationships that only started getting really intimate once we both fully opened up. The sex got better, too. But I don't think every women I've dated were really looking for that sort of thing. Some women genuinely do like men who don't emote much. I don't think we should stigmatize either way.
That's an issue of confidence & self-esteem. If those girls push you away when you're being as vulnerable as you claim then it might had to do with an absence of appropriate validation. So its easier to project desperation, clinginess, just plain ol boring.
In that case, better to just address toxicity in general rather than get caught up in all the weird politics of gender (since gender is inherently neutral, the real problem is neurosis surrounding gender).
Yea masculinity and being a Grade A asshole get conflated too often. I don't think it's inherently bad either, but masculinity is commonly contorted into being a douche.
@@johnreedy9098 I wouldn't say gender is inherently neutral, their are less obvious subtle differences. Modern feminists would argue that fact though. However yes I would agree toxicity is the route problem!
@@johnreedy9098 In the case of toxic masculinity I think it's fair to have such a categorization because it comes from a place that generally speaking from a social standpoint only men can be toxic in that area, because it's the reinforcement of masculinity predominant traits in a toxic way, such as agression (being aggressive towards people around you more than normal), independence (such as not being able to cry, or shaming men that do so, same for financial security and etc) and stuff specifically agaisnt women such as seeing them only for their body and etc.
My father apologizing for being weak after attempting to take his own life was quite a window into toxic masculinity I am 27 years old and it took a suicide attempt and 2 hours of silence in an emergency room for me to see him cry for the first time
The fear that accompanied that situation must've been staggering but I'm happy a positive came out of it in the end brother. I have a stubborn emotionally distant father as well. I don't think he'll ever change but I've been showing him that it's okay to let your walls down. One day I'm certain he will.
Your father suicide attempt had nothing to do with his masculinity. There is no such thing as toxic masculinity. He was most probably suffering from clinic depression.
@@algomez8563 His idea that being a man means not crying or showing any weakness whatsoever is toxic. Apologizing for being weak after attempting to take your life is toxic. Not talking to anybody about your feelings is toxic. Doing so because you've been told and shown by other men that it's the only way to be a "real man" is precisely what toxic masculinity is. You can't say an idea doesn't exist. Especially when you can see it in action and study it.
Same. As a mom and a woman, this broke my heart. Absolutely broke. My. Heart. We have done such a disservice to our men and boys. They literally don’t know how to talk about their feelings. I taught this stuff to my daughter when she was young. It’s a lesson we work on daily. To not teach our sons the same thing is awful. I don’t understand it. I cried at a couple points. I am so sad for how these young men feel and have felt. I’m also so very proud of each of them for talking about these issues in public. I hope they are helped and I hope this helps others. They give me such hope that we will only continue to improve.
@@truckerdave8465 Some guys also just don't want to talk about their feelings and I think that should also be okay. It's kinda funny how a lot of women want guys to deal with their inner world the way most women do. if it is simply not in their nature to talk about their feelings, then so be it.
@@FeldiArts If some guys really don't want to talk about it then... yeah. You shouldn't talk about your feelings if you don't need or want to (don't know if that's good or bad, but at the end of the day, the person gets to decide how to deal with it). I feel like that goes for anyone. If you don't mind me asking... in what way do you consider women deal with it differently than men?.
@@FeldiArts The problem isn't men not wanting to show their emotions sometimes. The problem is when men want or should share their emotions, but can't because they'll be looked down upon because "that's not how men are supposed to act."
As a woman it's interesting seeing the collective silence that fell for so long after Shea opened up and Dr K asked them what they could do in response. Ed was so right in his idea that if it were a group of women that we'd be chiming in about how we need to support, encourage, validate and cheer on our sister after opening up. And I didn't think poorly of the guys or anything. It made me think wow, I as a woman would know how to answer that because I was raised to be feminine from a young age and a part of that is the sense of being emotional and highly empathetic. Meanwhile so many men like Shea and get that stomped out of them. It's heartbreaking yet it opened my eyes to just how ill-equipped many men are to dealing with these sort of things. Women pretty much assume that everyone understand social cues like that and expect that men not only know them as well, but that when they seem to not know it's because they dont care or arent trying or pretending. I expect that's why so many disagreements happen between men and women. We're operating under assumptions without realizing that they're incorrect. My jaw dropped during that long silence and I just heard myself going, "These poor guys." You can see them wanting so desperately to help but not knowing how because they genuinely don't have much practice at all in this. Shea is right. Society needs to do better to help our young boys (and be patient and understanding with men as well because clearly a lot of them are still on a journey of understanding themselves and how they fit in the world with their masculinity). Parents especially need to do better. I hate the idea that boys are easier to raise because you can just leave them on their own and they'll be fine while you have to watch out for girls and protect them. This is how you get these situtations.
Literally the most intelligent response on this video and that says a lot, especially since other people have made great points too. "Women pretty much assume that everyone understand social cues like that and expect that men not only know them as well, but that when they seem to not know it's because they dont care or arent trying or pretending. I expect that's why so many disagreements happen between men and women. We're operating under assumptions without realizing that they're incorrect." "I hate the idea that boys are easier to raise because you can just leave them on their own and they'll be fine while you have to watch out for girls and protect them. This is how you get these situtations." *This is so true, I can't believe how spot-on this is. Super insightful.*
@@AlaReDuS So true. I realized women think most men are equipped with the same tools. Only years of aimlessly learning how to genuinely connect with people did I realize the thing I said or did was a horrible attempt at connecting and it sucked cause it seemed like everyone else figured it out.
Yeah I was listening to that part while doing chores. Honestly if I were in their shoes I wouldn't have known what to do either. I likewise would've been silent.
As a woman, I found myself getting really frustrated when Shea was opening up and saying how angry he was with everyone letting him down as a person and not caring enough to explain that its ok to feel things, and the entire call was silent. But then Dr. K stepped in an addressed the silence and I realized that these guys really have not been either taught or allowed to show the kind of empathy and reassurance many women kind of expect from their friend groups. I wasnt a social butterfly by any means, and my friend groups have always been very small, but a major expectation was always to be a shoulder for whoever needed it, even if you arent the best at it, just trying to be there for your friends. Its really eye opening to see that its not just Shea who missed out on that, but all the guys here regardless of the level of masculinity they grew up with, its just not a behavior boys get encouraged to have. I feel for them :(
That wall of silence is very familiar. I don't intuitively know what empathy and reassurance even sounds like so when someone opens up like that I have no idea how to respond. My mind goes completely blank and I can't speak any words beyond "wow that sucks" and then usually making some kind of joke.
Probably there is some misconception in society. 1. It´s different to "express" emotions. 2. it´s different "having certain "emotions" as a part of your personality and identity. Expressing emotions is something fleeting, impermanent, something that transforms into something better, calm and humorous, within one day. Having certain "emotions" as part of personality or your "mood" is something that stays with you. Society probably doesn´t define a two different things that expressing emotion that turns into some "humor", isn´t the same as having a "permanent emotion" that never turns into something better... because as people who practice meditation, say nothing is permanent anyway... therefore even the emotion is not permanent. Therefore practicing mindfulness and meditation is so inspiring.
Imagine the yearrrssss of repression the person went through (or is going through) who said that to you. Damn. One little sentence told you a lot about their experience with life.
living on autopilot.. that really hit home. That’s what it’s like to live disconnected from your emotions. There are then moments of clarity, when the river is flowing again, but before you know it, it’s back to autopilot.
I had my first break in the disconnect since quarantine started, It's not pleasant to suddenly change your feelings on things and shift your relationships with other people.
I’ve always related when men said that they’d felt ashamed expressing emotions that are considered “weak” like sadness, even though I’m a woman. I grew up in an abusive household and when I was young I learned that being weak will only hurt you. I never really felt comfortable saying this though because I feel like men who suffered from toxic masculinity would tell me that I don’t have the right to complain because I’m a woman.
Dude, same :/ i still remember my own brother saying i have no right to complain just because im a girl. We can also learn through shitty environments that being vulnerable gets you in trouble...
No matter what the issue is, the trouble is finding the right people to open up to. Once you find that, and realize that those people are willing to listen and accept, sharing becomes much more manageble. There will be those that dont understand, or choose to not accept sadly. But finding someone more open to listen, I doubt it would be a big deal for them the gender or anything like that, the important thing as I see it, is that growing up in an abusive household sucks, and that those experiences aren't your fault.
Iam 20 and in the exact same situation i have tried to be more open about my feelings but I physically cant my mind goes blank and it makes me feel like iam only doing this for attention even though i know thats not true
I can highly relate to that, I grew up with 2 older brthers and believe me not a single one of us know how to express our feelings even though I am a girl. It has everything to do with how we were raised. Being vulnerable means to us being incompetent and weak, even to some extent allowing yourself to be sort of a prey. Pretty fcked up now that I think about it.
"As men we fix things." Wow that struck more of a chord with me than I expected. I always try to help, or offer my help, but sometimes, maybe more often than not, the best help I can give is just to listen and sit with them in whatever it is.
Bit of an old post but this resonates with me too. I really struggle to not offer solutions when people bring me problems when sometimes they just want emotional support and I think I barely even know how to do that.
@@mikasasukasa4479 do you think that may be because emotions are shrugged off so guys get straight to the point of what can be practically done? Maybe emotions are too wild of a beast to understand and bother taming, and it's easier to just slay them, technically
@@christopherholfeld8137 oh that's actually bad. It's often important to let people just vent because the situation is stressing them out. Even if there's an easy solution to it, solving it doesn't always resolve the stress like that. Giving someone advice when they just want to vent is almost like you insult them as people that don't know how to solve their own problems like adults. Oftentimes they know how to solve it and will do so the next day, they just want to share their struggle and relate to other people through the stress that is human life. If you do it without realising it, try to ask in the beginning of a conversation what the point is, if it's to vent or if someone actually wants advice.
Does anyone feel like the term "toxic masculinity" should be flipped around to "masculine toxicity" to better describe it for what it is? Changing toxicity to be the object in the sentence and masculine to being the adjective, as the toxicity is what we focus on and the flavor is "masculine" variety.
That's actually a very good idea. It would be more accurate. It could also curb some of the outrage over the subject, with "masculinity" not being the primary subject matter. Of course people will always try to misconstrue, but it would take away the argument that toxic masculinity implies that masculinity is toxic
Something that is toxic will always be inherently bad in my mind. There is no way to soften the idea of something being toxic. No adjective you use will make something toxic into something good. So using masculinity as an adjective/descriptor sounds like you're villainizing masculinity even more to pile on the idea that there are varying types of toxicity, but this type is the masculine brand of toxicity. Honestly there's nothing wrong with the term "toxic masculinity". By it's very nature, it implies that positive, healthy masculinity exists. The fact that you're specifying "toxic" as the adjective, there has to be an opposite that gives the adjective weight. The adjective "big" only has meaning because of the inherent idea that some things can be small or normal sized. Toxic masculinity is the idea that masculinity is fine on a baseline level but, like anything good, you have the extremes where it can become a negative thing. The issue is that people think that toxic masculinity means that all masculinity is toxic when it's just describing one negative extreme. Leaving toxic as the adjective indicates that there is another, healthy variation by default.
I think instead, we should spread awareness of toxic femininity. I don't think reversing the order of the words will really change people's perceptions.
Man, I'm so envious of all the guys on this channel who are 20 years old and such self aware enough to start figuring themselves out. While I've spent all my 20s completely lost not even knowing that I'm lost. Best years of my life down the drain.
I understand what you’re feeling, but try not to keep telling yourself that you’ve lost the opportunity to have your best years. Everyone has their best years at different stages. For some people it will be their early childhood, but like in the case of my mother, she says she’s currently living her best years (at almost 60). Then there are others who are determined to make their every decade better than the last one, which is more enviable in my opinion. The idea that we can only have a small span of great years and then the rest of our lives is downhill is super depressing AND suppressing for ourselves. We’ll only gradually decline in satisfaction if we decide to allow ourselves to. I hope this can at least somewhat encourage you because I hate the idea of you feeling that way.
I'll second Katelyn. Hard as it may be, don't focus on time wasted. Besides, if you see it like that, it means you're not doing it anymore and you're not stuck or stagnated. You'd really be in trouble if you were blind to it. Basically, I'm saying don't regret the time you didn't spend growing, but rather see your recognition of it as the first step away from it. Congrats! It's like how truly crazy people don't know they're crazy. If you think you're crazy, you're not.
@@bennymountain1 huh , and here I thought I wasn't enough self-aware in my teenage years. It's relieving to know that it happens at different times. You should know that I'm only 19 and can relate to what you are feeling so I understand you a little bit. Wish you luck man! :)
Same here. I'm 27 and I feel like I've wasted so much time. Chasing women that I knew wouldnt choose me, feeling like I'll never grow up, being down on myself about everything. Just an emotional wreck.
To me personally this has been the most eye-opening and inspiring discussion so far. I've always had trouble connecting with people on a deeper level, and these guys walked through how to do it. This stuff was free as well! The internet is amazing sometimes.
Thank you for doing this work. I'm an older woman (41) so when I see younger men suffering the motherly part of me hurts. I want men to be happy and healthy and for men and women to live together harmoniously with minimal suffering on both sides. I want us to stop attacking each other and instead attack unhealthy behaviour no matter where it comes from.
I agree and i think it is important to teach people how to express thier emotions and how to find support in their friend group, but I feel like the entire conversation around masculinity is negative and toxic masculinity is the only masculinity people hear about. So many young men would be better served learning about healthy masculinity.
@@secretly_obamas_boyfriend healthy masculinity is what we as men should strive for and the first step is understanding what those terms mean. Men should support and uplift each other. Toxic masculinity is recognizing what traits hurt men and constrain our roles in society.
I think it was really important to have Shea on. He brought a lot of energy and light to the discussion that would have been entirely absent-aside from Dr K. playing devil’s advocate-without him. And while “grass isn’t greener on the other side” is an annoying proverb, it’s also true. Especially in the extremes. Hypermasculine men are hypermasculine often because they are shoved into that box with the lid closed and never given any air to breathe. They live a life of desperation, pressure, fear, fragility; never allowed to peek their heads out. And like Shea said, they throw themselves entirely into exercise, sports, sleeping around, bullying, fighting, etc. to distract or delude themselves of their internal reality. “Fuck it, I’ve got nothing else to turn to, I’ll be the beat at this. This is what men are supposed to be.” I speak from experience on that. No number of women slept with fixes the problem, no number of fights, no amount of exercise or insults. It’s isolating as fuck. Enraging. Quietly terrifying. You know you’re just making the box smaller with every step but you don’t know how to get out. No one taught you how to build your own.
Holy shit dude... watching this makes me relate to all of them so much in ways I never expected to. Thank you Sam, Omer, Ed, Quinton and Shea for sharing your perspectives and thank you Dr K and HealthyGamer for making it possible!
Once I tried opening up to a (guy) friend of mine about a period of depression I had just had. His response: "why didn't you tell us, so we could make fun of you". Nothing else. Then I realised exactly why I have only been able to open up to my girl friends.
You do realize that example is clearly over thinking it. It matches with dr k previous topic about why you think people dislike you. It’s way overboard.
@@Noflexing100 I don’t think it’s way overboard, as a lot of times men are told to do “masculine” things even when they can hurt their health, mental health or social life and relationships.
Shea saying it's conditioned us to be emotionless robots is hilariously sad and true. We haven't had a chance to develop our emotions and understanding of them to be open and communicative in social situations. I'm very comfortable socially, but I do not open up and allow myself to be vulnerable. I'm glad I've started to change that but it's insidious and hard to remember.
I wonder how much of the emotionless robot trait is a result of toxic masculinity vs. emotional depravation from parents growing up. I'm curious if some people are conflating these two things.
@@Marusinae I can see that possibly being confused, so I'm sure some people are conflating those two. It's hard to separate them too though, because the emotional depravation from the male parent can also be toxic masculinity. Dads are also societally driven to not be emotional, give tough love, etc. But I can see that there could be another cause when it's from a parent.
@@yuchant In the cases of an emotionally depriving father, usually there would be a mother that would pick up that slack. However, either parent is capable of emotional depravation and in my case it was my mother whom I lived with because my parents divorced, so I've become a bit of an emotionless robot myself. I just think that as a society, we shouldn't assume men being emotionless is due entirely to toxic masculinity, other factors may exist like in my case. Basically, view things on a case by case basis rather than just apply a blanket reason for why certain types of people exhibit certain behaviours.
@@Marusinae Ah I understand. I hope I didn't give off the impression I was making a blanket statement. I used the word "can" to suggest it's only a possibility. I agree with you that we shouldn't think men being emotionless is entirely due to toxic masculinity. If you don't mind me asking, how do you think being with your divorced mother made you an emotionless robot?
@@yuchant Nah, don't worry about it. My mom was too focused on herself, especially during the most formative years of my childhood. She was always too busy working and finding another man pre and post divorce during her off work hours, constantly incurring debt by buying beauty products and jewelry off of infomercials, she would just leave me to my own devices and didn't really pay any attention to me outside of needing to provide basic needs like food, clothes, shelter, occasional medical checkups. When she was in the middle of all the divorce stuff and during the times she was single afterwards, she was angry and unpleasant to be around 75% of the time. If I came to her with a problem, it was usually met with either hostility or not really caring about it. As someone who was bullied quite a bit in school during those times as well as being picked on by my older brother and sister, I didn't really have anyone to rely on. I only got to see my dad twice a month and he was often busy with work.
@@cerealofdoom2125 Never Give Up (NGU) is a a guy who is sort of known for being ugly. He blew up from a video talking about his life and what it’s like being very ugly. He still has a pretty positive outlook on his life even though he was dealt a bad hand, and many people admire him for that. Just look up “NGU Ugly” for more information.
I really wish people would understand that the term "toxic masculinity" does NOT imply that "all masculinity is toxic", in the same way that the term "bacon cheeseburger" does not imply that "all cheeseburgers have bacon in them," or that the term "electromagnetic radiation" does not imply that "all radiation is electromagnetic." Toxic masculinity strictly refers to certain harmful norms that are associated with masculinity, like pressuring masculine people to be stoic, or all the other problems they talk about in this video. It isn't a "problem with men," either; toxic masculinity is a societal problem that is just as reinforced by women as it is by men. There are obviously great ways to do masculinity! As a feminist, if you're a man out there who wants to be a big, brash, confident, macho powerlifter dude, then I think that's awesome and that you should go for it! But I want for you to make that choice for yourself. I don't want society to pressure you into feeling you have to be that way if you don't want to, and to revoke your proverbial "man card" if you fail to live up to those expectations.
@@ShazyShaze so heat, in the form of "sun" radiation is infrared radiation, sound is a form of vibration energy in the form of excitement of matter and gravity in an inert function of mass.
My heart goes out to these young men, what a hell of a situation to be in. I am so grateful for this conversation. I am going to save it (never take it down Dr. please) and when my grandson can understand these concepts, I am going to discuss things like this with him. Although I have had very deep conversations with my sons, we did not go into issues like this and I am so regretful.
It is all bullshit and grandstanding. Be aware of those who demand you show them your weakness. Respect must be earned. The care and trust in each other, actions that show loyalty. The courage to call wrong actions.
It happened for me with my current gf, but I had to go to some others that were not ok or surprised when I showed vulnerability. Looking back on it, back then I built an image on me being cool and dettached, so I don't know, a little of society's fault, a little mine. Good luck out there
Part of disconnecting yourself as hard as somebody like Shea is that to understand human interactions, you stop understanding them in emergent ways and sort of understand everything as an action. When he said something along the the lines of "Humans are just made up the skills they act out" you can tell he's thought a lot about his place in social interacts. I've felt this way a lot too, what's the purpose of optimizing myself if I don't have "joy". You become good enough at understanding behaviors of people and yourself but there's literally this "feeling" people say they have that Shea says he doesn't feel, and I also don't feel.
Always thought of this issue in regards of "expectations around a man's feelings in this way: - This "ideal man" is somewhat like a old school car, while his mental wellbeing is the passenger driving it. Old cars looked very sturdy on the outside as on crashes they will retain their external shape a lot more compared to today's cars. But on the inside they had very little safety measures for the passenger, and most often than not that sturdiness would end up killing the passenger because the car wouldn't change it's shape nor have stuff like airbags, detaching engine block, etc to protect them from dying. Whereas men and anyone else really should behave like new cars. New cars seem "weaker" because of all the plastic pieces, thinner metal profiling and how they deform on impact in a crash, but actually they are doing a lot of work to protect the passenger. Because that is what really matters. Retaining your external shape after a crash (a negative situation) means shit if it's at the expense of damaging your passenger (your inner self/mental wellbeing). The old school car might seem "fine" on the outside, but with no driver alive it doesn't mean anything, but a crash survivor that was protected by the vehicle can still get another one and continue with life. What i'm trying to say here is that "looking weak" is as temporary as the duration of the manifestation of our grief/sadness on a situation that hurt us emotionally. But bottling that up for the sake of this toxic masculinity has ever-lasting consequences on our mental health. Lastly, manifesting our grief is what actually "protects" us like the new car protects it's passenger in a crash, by giving us the space to suffer just the right amount at the right time. Because once the "right time" passes, the right amount becomes more and more difficult to quantify and manage if we didn't so back when it was needed. And this comes from someone that just realized on the past years that it has become increasingly difficult for me to manifest my own grief when i'm around with people. It just massively sucks and goes to show how deep rooted some of these issues with the perception of what men should be and behave, are.
That comparison is insanely apt hot damn. Explains a lot on why my family isn't supportive of my "low and slow" approach to life. I wanted a gap year before college, that didn't happen and I cracked in year 2, failing so many exams I decided to just not show up for the last one so I could repeat the year. Nobody seemed to care about the underlying problems, I could see that they just grudgingly accepted my choice because they couldn't force me to do it. Same thing now, though I may have been making headway (or have grown delusional) because I have received far more understanding. I just...sometimes lie awake at night after having done nothing the day before and I feel like screaming in frustration because I'm pretty smart, I learn fast, I SHOULD be able to do it. But I can't. I just...see how much work there is to do and I choke. I need to dole it out in such a way that the deadlines are not on the same day because otherwise I just can't do any of them. And the words start ringing in my ears "you're not capable of anything". So with all this baggage I need to be like a modern car, flow with things when I can so I don't hurt myself even more. And if I look bad because of it from others' perspective, fuck 'em. I don't have to care about what judgemental people think. Until they care to learn my side of the story without me screaming it at them during a desperation-fueled breakdown, I don't care about their opinions.
This is dead on what toxic masculinity, or any kind of upbringing that reinforces externally perceived strength, is like. In my case I had tiger parents who reinforced this kind of personality. You're not encourage to show or talk about feelings leading to what you described.
Problems with analogies like this is that they make for very bad arguments in general. And I doubt this case is any special. After all, what if you need to keep going in life and the right amount hasn't passed yet? What if you need to pay the bills to move on? What if the society needs more houses to be built, and the construction workers are too depressed? Do we just give the workers a tome off for as long as they need just so they can take care of their "mental well-being"? Businesses need to be run, society needs to function, kids need to be fed, bills need to be paid, houses need to be built, food and products need to be transported. You don't just give people the freedom to not do these things bevause it's had a bad impact on their mental health. Society would end up broke if it functioned with your mindset. And what do we do if manifesting our grief leads us to do stupid things? For example, isn't the average dude who pays for camgirls letting his grief "manifest" and releasing it by paying for cam shows? Isn't that sexual/romantic pleasure gained from paying camgirls temporarily helping him overcome any grief he may or may not have? Isn't he more in touch with his grief than a dude with similar past experiences but neglects that desire for romance and doesn't pay for camgirls? Problem is, acting on your emotions has a negative impact on your life directly, whereas making rational decisions has a negative impact on your "mental well-being". And it simply isn't always clear which to prioritize. And not only that, sometimes you simply can't afford to be emotional and make the stupid decisions people tend to make when they appeal to emotions.
24:21 "Dont give us the conclusion, paint us a picture." I should follow this advice as well. I usually assume no one cares what I say and I should keep things as short as possible...
Man id love for this conversation to be continued, its amazing to hear and i feel like so much is left untouched and that they were just getting warmed up
I watched this live and this stream was what pushed me to sign up for group coaching on HealthyGamer. I really loved having more perspectives and people to hear from. This was a really beautiful stream to watch.
I'm a girl and I like Dr K because he has helped with my anxiety and other stuff. I know not all the information applies to me but some of the advice is universal.
To add on to what others have replied about females also perpetuating toxic masculinity, just look at Shea -- it was his mom telling him what type of guy girls would like that really stuck in his head. So whether or not you have kids, want them in the future, or are around young impressionable persons, taking this into mind is helpful!
@@CMDAwesome women do not have control over what turns them on(this applies to men as well). it is practically impossible for women to stop the reinforcement of toxic masculinity at a grand scale
As someone who was cautious of using the term 'toxic masculinity', this was very insightful to listen to this chat and see the "inexperience" men have in communicating their emotions. Definitely need more of this and look forward to learning together!
This term is accurate - however there doesn't seem to be much clarity on what positive masculinity is. It feels like the toxic elements are the ONLY elements, and even these now are being promoted in women; to be strong, dominant, decisive, independent. It can be helpful for them obviously - but there's a lot of kind, gentler women now that will feel the similar inadequacies in the future as men do now.
@@Balloonbot Because the term is useless except for political agendas. We are basically talking about masculine traits going extreme and what's extreme is a whole another topic. The same goes for toxic femininity.
@@DarkThagan Well many defects are just the inability to temper qualities. Just like determination can veer into stubbornness, calm can veer into apathy or being healthily distant from situations when it's called for veers into callousness. Look at it the other way, in a medical sense we have the term "a toxic dose of" which means an amount of something, usually a drug, that would have very positive effects in the right amounts but gets overused and becomes unhealthy. Exact same thing with masculinity.
@@chukyuniqul The distinction there though is that we don’t label the drug itself as toxic. The toxicity is attached to the excessive quantity. Toxic masculinity as a term does the opposite of this. It’s not specific to any particular masculine behavior or to what degree it’s expressed. It just paints masculinity broadly as “toxic” in some vague way.
@@samuelroskelley2413 as we can see in this video, that is not the case. Nobody says self-control or liking pretty women is toxic (nobody sane, anyways), we say it's toxic to harass other men for not conforming to the traditional male stereotype. It's toxic to emasculate guys for not being as physically strong or emotionally aloof. It's toxic to objectify women and act entitled to their affection, not to shoot your shot with a girl you fancy as long as you do it politely and take no for an answer if it's the case. It's not bad to be determined, but it's bad to be stubborn. It's not bad to be decisive but it's bad to be impulsive. It's not bad to lead but it's bad to dominate. And so on.
This might be buried in the comments, but as a guy with heavy depression and anxiety, learning to voice and explain my emotions, even though it is so unbearably hard most of the time, it is the most incredible thing, I am "Luke" for other people most of the time because I am open about the shitstorm that is life, but be your own Luke for the people you have close
it's definitely something people have to learn and not something that comes naturally to many, especially when it wasn't taught in your family. This means you can actually introduce that to circles of men, because from my experience, most men are struggling with something and have nowhere to open up to.
it's definitely something people have to learn and not something that comes naturally to many, especially when it wasn't taught in your family. This means you can actually introduce that to circles of men, because from my experience, most men are struggling with something and have nowhere to open up to.
Toxic masculinity is also enforced by women , I've had many women who have said that they are open to me talking about my emotions but whenever I've actually expressed them in an open and honest way it's never worked out well for me and I can always tell i was percieved as weaker. Edit - was not meant to be a women bashing comment , I've had many great and supportive women In my life. Was just trying to make the point that it's an issue that we both need to work on , ie men work on certain behaviours they have been taught and women work on what they have been taught to be acceptable or attractive.
FINALLY an insightful comment. Hypermasculine and "toxic" masculine traits have been rewarded with reproductive access in primate species to the extent that its a trope. Shea's mom was remarkably self aware compared to the feminist goons menstruating over the comments section with more man blaming in a video meant to help men.
@@VastChoirs it's not taught by women, its taught by men. Sure women condone it, but the source is from men. Little boys do not interact with women in that way, they interact with their fathers or other men who teach them toxic traits. Men have most of the blame, but women also carry some, much like watching someone drown and not doing anything.
@@supertrollfaxnoprinter3329 Why do men teach it to their boys? Why do women teach their girls to dress pretty and wear makeup? We set up our children for reproductive success whether we realize it or not. We as men know what women want, and we pass it on to our boys. And yes, women are at fault as well. Studies have shown that women across many cultures hold their babies differently by gender. Girls are held closer to the body and in a more loving manner, and boys are held further from the body. This stuff starts at birth, and it starts with the mother.
@@kassokilleri2ff if you truly think dads intentionally model and bring up their kids for reproductive success you’re silly. Dads model their kids after themselves. They teach them the values that they themselves hold. No parent intentionally raises kids to be sex monsters. Men teach boys toxic masculinity and that’s plain and simple. Oh and that whole thing with mothers holding their baby different probably won’t a huge effect on someone
@@supertrollfaxnoprinter3329 "only one of the sexes does this" "this sex has most of the blame" what's your issue? How come you are so biased, yet unaware of it?
It’s really telling how silent the group is when Dr K poses a question to the group. Men are so unused to talking about their emotions, discouraged from talking about them, and conditioned to suppress them that they honestly don’t know what to say.
@Abz it gave them a lot of pressure because a lot of guys have never done this before if anything they are told their entire live from a young age to actively avoid this and that they shouldn't do this. Guys never have been taught and told ok lets have a conversation in a group and lets talk about each other emotions and ask questions about it. They don't know how to do this or do it well and now they are asked to talk to another guy about his emotions in front of thousands if not millions of people online
Who honestly wants to be talking about their personal emotions to total strangers and also have it posted online. Thats perfectly natural nothing to do with men not know how to emotions.i
I actually really disagree with Dr. K about one thing. At the very end he talks about bringing women into this group, and I feel like men really need a space for developing masculinity that doesn't involve the judgement of women. I had those kinds of spaces when I went to a college that was 95% male, and it's helped me later in life, especially with a lot of guys who don't feel like they can get along with guys.
I agree with you, to me it's logical, and it's something we do or want to do as women as well : having spaces where we can discuss things more openly, between peers and without the fear of judgement from the other gender. We all need both kinds of spaces : the "between men" and "between women" discussion spaces, and then other open spaces where we can share and explain. They serve different purposes.
I was in Boy Scouts and I’m really great full for the perspective it gave me. There were boys that I looked up to and boys that disappointed or scared me. Their actions and character helped me better understand the man that I wanted to become, and I don’t think I could’ve seen their true nature had it not been an only boys environment.
I'm glad if you think this helped you, though not sure how much- IME, and the experience of many other men I've known throughout life and natural pattern observation of others, it is more so the males (especially the toxic ones) that enforce such pressures/judgement of gender, to both genders. In fact, having to stay in a space of mostly men to 'develop masculinity' indirectly does the same thing (perhaps even more so judgemental and even sexist) intended to avoid. I can honestly say I haven't met many males with this viewpoint, esp in terms of self-help.
To all men out there I highly recommend a book "Under Saturn's Shadow: The Wounding and Healing of Men" by James Hollis. One of the most personally and spiritually impactful things I've ever read. After finishing it I felt like I was thirsty my whole life without even knowing it and finally got a sip of water Thank you for the work that you're doing Dr.K!
I just can't get over the fact that Shea has a washing machine in the background. On one hand he's got a really good mic and arm and everything, but his setup is seemingly placed in the bathroom or something, and that just resonates with me.
It's funny because, when you get a bunch of girls together, there's non stop talking. Here there were pockets of absolute silence, even I felt like a part of it like 'what do I do? Does he want to be comforted or something'. The silence made me feel included.
This interview is good because it has 2 sides of the masculinity coin. I really like how theres people who suffered from toxic masculinity, but there also is a man who lived in the masculinity. Very well thought out, good job Dr. K!
the point is that shea himself also suffered from toxic masculinity. i think the point of this interview essentially became to show that toxic masculinity is negative on both sides of the coin, and even those who live in it or embody it are harming themselves as much as others
As an Irish guy that went to an all boys school growing up with the same social stigmas that these guys are talking about (as I'm sure SO many guys can relate to), this was super wholesome to watch and listen to. Thanks for thinking of doing something like this Dr. K, and I hope all of these guys and anyone else watching can learn from it. It'd be incredible to see a follow up to this, even if it had a different topic or format
Sometimes its not about building someone a house to live in, its about letting them know you care about them and that your door is open if they need a place to rest.
This is actually a nice example of a well-run group session. All the participants are awesome and work REALLY well together! I wish we would've gotten to hear more from Quinton and Sam.
This is easily the best group session so far for me. I've cried twice and I'm only halfway through. Sincere thank you to the brave men who came to this, y'all are awesome.
To give an answer (which is a non answer for some I know) to the question this video posed; "Is it okay to be a sensitive man?" The answer to that is "Yes, but the margin between sensitivity and weakness is razor thin". It's very difficult to put down a firm definition on this, cause it's a mostly undefined characteristic combined with the gray setting of life. It just depends. There are traits in life that one simply must master, otherwise life'll become more difficult. For instance, the ability to stand up for oneself. The ability to take care of oneself. The ability to reflect, etc. At the same time, you are fulfilling a cultural role in your society, which is for a large part determined by your sex. Is it archaic? For a part, but it's also necessary, because the lessons behind the role are INGRAINED into you on a subconscious level. The more I read about this (especially from Jung) the more I realized that yes, the inability to have the choice in "being" festered on us by god/fate/chance (take your pick) is "unfair". And yet it is this exact feature of life that makes life meaningful; To be challenged in life, coupled with your own advantages and disadvantages, and to find out who you truly are as a person on a multi-faceted level (As a man, as a worker, as a parent, as etc.) gives life meaning. It is not something to be lamented over, in my humble opinion.
That is a very insightful perspective. Many people I’ve personally met would characterize themselves mentally as a victim of circumstance rather than look for ways to overcome their background. It’s not really healthy to believe that everything wrong in your life is out of your locus of control, and that you have no power over it.
Don't strive to be a "good man", strive to be a good person. If you're a "good man" then sure, people will like you, but if you end up feeling miserable like Shea then there is no point, is there? Since isn't the reason why you want people to like you in order to be happy? It's an awful strategy.
@@Birrrrra being a good man = trying to fit into the society's expectation of what they tell you're supposed to be being a good person = trying to better yourself not for the sake of any expectation you're trying to achieve but for the sake of your own self to your own desire. The thing is everyone should just be a good person but society has alot of these gender roles that makes people strive for these gender roles rather than themselves, i think thats the best way i thought of explaining it.
@@Birrrrra ah i see what you're going for here but unfortunately i don't think what you're talking about is a matter of whats the right or wrong way but rather this is a matter of context, it seems you're placing being a "good man" similarly on the spot as just simply being a good person i assume? if thats the case then we are all on the same page although this should really just be called being a good person regardless of the gender associated. What the topic at hand is talking about however is the gender role stereotype version of a "good man", as this is tackled in this video the invisionment of a good man induced by society's gender roles that creates various identity problems and surpression of certain emotions and a toxic stereotype of the gender as a whole as we see in this video itself, the thing about a "good man" is this doesn't exist and shouldn't exist in my opinion, everyone is themselves and should just strive to be a good person, a man can be just as nurturing and sensitive as a woman would be with their stereotypes and a woman could be just as similar to a man with their stereotypes, do you get it now? I myself have an example of such right in my family, my mom is far stronger than me my dad and my brother and if she were to be a man she would be way more "masculine" than any person i've met so far, shes a security guard and those who know her respect her for who she is, she doesn't take shit from anyone, is mentaly stronger and is overall the female version of a chad i'd say.
I'll tell you all this: If all women said "I don't want a man who is their true authentic and emotional self." Then, I, personally, would never want any women in my life ever. stop caring if people will not like you for who you are and start liking you for yourself. You will find friends who like you for you.
I am a girl too but I had the chance to grow in a rather non conservative family and I completely agree on the fact that men also suffer a LOT from toxic masculinity and I am happy to see people opening up willingly and being so brave even though they will be on the Internet and that’s gonna change things ! Dr.K is a pearl ✨
None of the masculine role models in my life have ever been or promoted toxic masculinity. They've usually been the ones that opened me up to being vulnerable. Most of the feminine figures in my life have promoted toxic masculinity, though.
The thing is that men and women are equally prone to internalising and perpetuating sexist ideas (studies show that), whether that be toxic masculinity or toxic femininity, but it's not acknowledged often enough. It's often portrayed as if women are just naturally more "woke" which ironically is (benevolent) sexism itself. In the end, it's a matter of luck or bad luck what role models one grows up with by chance
@@pandapanda246 Yeah. It's really about toxicity targeted at and implanted into men from society. Men are very much victims in this too when they're inculcated with toxic masculinity.
@@LagMasterSam I think a huge part of the discussion is that men suffer because of toxic masculinity and are very much victims of it, but somehow it's hard for a lot of those victims to see the connection. For example the reason why men have such a hard time to get the right to their children in family court even if they are the better parent is the notion that men are inherently worse parents compared to women, which stems from the idea of the unemotional man (toxic masculinity) and the Mother archetype (all women are motherly --> toxic femininity) victims of this will say it's women's fault that they get treated so unfairly, when this is missing the point, in fact it's a sexist idea that is perpetuated by men and women equally. Men and women suffer through sexism in different ways but both suffer and both perpetuate sexism, so the solution is to work on it together instead of pointing fingers to the other gender. I wish more would understand the depth of it.
I'm kinda disillusioned with the term 'toxic masculinity'. For a group that talks constantly about the importance of language and how words can hurt people, feminists seem to have no qualms risking hurting men by using this phrase. It's a 'motte and bailey' tactic, the word implies that masculinity has inherent toxicity within it, and when men point that out, feminists retreat to the bailey of it actually means society's harmful expectations on men. Okay, so why don't you call it that then? If 90% of people don't understand what the term actually means when reading it, it's a crappy term and you should stop using it. If you care about our emotions so much, why don't you take that into account when we say that term feels pretty insulting to us? There is a great series on the Guardian called 'Modern Masculinity' where a journalist Iman Amrani talks to men about what it means to be a man in today's society. In an interview on Russell Howard, she says that she doesn't use the phrase toxic masculinity she thinks that it details the conversation and men wouldn't talk honestly if she used that phrase.
Putting an adjective in front of a noun doesn't imply that it's present in all or most cases of that noun! It's like saying stray dog, spoiled food, pretty girl, radical feminist. It's just a subsection. Just how radical feminist =/= feminists are (all) radical, toxic masculinity =/= masculinity is (all) toxic.
Shea isn't alone. I was born a suburb kid and around age 8, my Dad started moving us around for a career climb. By 12, he was the CEO of a large network marketing company. People didn't expect physical prowess in the way Shea described from me, but they expected success. I literally cannot remember the last time someone in my immediate family asked me if I needed help; everyone around me always defaulted to assuming I'm good. In the moments I communicated I wasn't, everyone always took it as some massive shock that I couldn't perform at 300% where most people around me were struggling to maintain 40%. Don't treat people this way, it really screws them up.
I fucking LOVE hearing dudes talk about what's inside of them. I think men are fascinating, multi-layered, beautiful creatures, and what sucks so much about toxic masculinity is that they are constantly stifled so they cannot be their true selves, and by extension, WE also don't get to enjoy their true selves either, because they've all got those masks on. Imagine if the world was safe and open enough for men to feel good about openly being themselves. It would be like existing on this planet with a different species. We've done men such a disservice by raising them in this social environment, and I can't wait to see society do better as men become more emotionally healthy. And this isn't all on men to fix themselves. Most men are raised by women, and it needs to start there.
Im a year late but your comment struck a chord with me. Thabk you for your empathy... Truly. I dunno why i felt the need to say that to you as opposed to everyone else, but i really mean it. Sometimes just being reminded that women dont all default to men being gross and terrible is such a spirit boost.
The insight this video gives in invaluable. I would love to see a discussion about gender roles from both people that identify as feminine and masculine and their experience growing up. I really think that the similarities and differences would help us to better understand each other. As a woman, I was also told I was "too sensitive," and I was often the butt of the joke in school. I was ostracized from not only girls my age but also boys. My family expected me to be a strong leader, but only when it came to taking care of others and doing things they wanted me to do to the point where I hated being feminine at all, but I didn't identify with being masculine either. The grey area is what I feel like crushes us whether you're one, the other, and sometimes both.
Dude, I literally cried when Shea expressed his upbringing and how he was soo upset when no one told him its okay to feel something. I was raving on my computer screaming WTF! and saying, "Somebody fucking say something" but then i realized these guy's were never taught either how to express or console someone. I also think there was a significant amount of anger that was not being brought up by the other guys, I wasn't even in the call and I felt the animosity and daggers these guy's threw at Shea when he would express his feelings and experiences.
Im almost lucky that i never had friends until i was an adult. The toxic masculinity thing only got me partially. I'm a very honest person. I have found that when i talk to other men, and im OK with sharing my feelings, they suddenly become OK with it too. I see a lot of guys always say "well men dont usually care to deal with emotions like women do." I agree its not the same as women. But men are definitely able to share and work on their emotions, i guess maybe the strategy is just different. Dudes are always afraid to be vulnerable, until i am openly vulnerable, and then the guy will match my level. I never have to fear being verbally assaulted for it. Its never happened. Even if it did, i wouldnt care. Thats just me tho i have very thick skin lol. Its funny, i hated men my whole life. Because i grew up being bullied and shit on, even as an adult i was being bullied. I was bullied in the military and even after i got out. Ive been struggling for a long time to reconnect in some way with my bros out there in the world. This video definitely helped. Even though i would be vukberable and a dude might open up to me. I always kept them at arms length. Cuz i dont want to be burdened with your problems. Every dude i have opened up to has become clingy to me. Qnd no wonder. We all wish someone could understand us or at least listen withiut judgement. And be offered advice or something. I hope to be closer to my bros in the future. Im working on it.
I do want to add, if it hasn’t been mentioned yet, that boys and young men are trained from a young age to absolutely bottle any kind of sensitivity through the exchange of truly hurtful quips masquerading as “just bustin chops.” Men will put each other down, fixating on obvious sore spots, and if the person being put down responds in any way other than a measured and equally hurtful retort, that person is quickly ridiculed. The result is that boys and young men are taught that it’s not okay to be hurt by hurtful things, that men steel (suppress) their emotions and, at best, hide behind a veneer of wit. I had a crash course in busting chops when I joined the Navy at 20, my parents did not tolerate hurtful words in any capacity. I truly regret the changes I went through, I still catch myself saying hurtful things to men I call my friends, just because it’s funny and for whatever reason I feel like they “need to be taken down a notch.” I do think that there is a good deal of hope for the future. When I watch my child and the others they interact with, hurtful words aren’t tolerated, and even called out.
Yup as a sensitive guy never understood this. Never had the courage to call the truly hurtful words for what they were. Just hid behind my wit and developed insecurities on the inside. I always had a lingering feeling of, where are the boys that will support me for who I am, instead of playfully tear me apart?
@@pandapanda246 It's a part of masculine culture that's pretty toxic. I think it stems from the notion that boys should be be tough and be able to shrug off words because they don't physically hurt you. I remember this exact thing in middle school growing up where it seemed like you couldn't fit in if you weren't able to roast your peers and for someone where that kind of thing doesn't come naturally it's really easy to not know where the line is of what's acceptable. I remember constant insults being thrown between the guys when I was lucky enough to get a seat at the lunch table and I remember getting fed up with being the butt of others jokes and not knowing how to fire back so one day I ended up putting a lot of thought into coming up with an insult that i thought was so strong that people would either be impressed or at least know I was willing to defend myself. It was something about their genes being poison and that the best thing they could do with their lives is never reproduce. When I said it no one laughed they were just like yikes too far man. I was embarrassed and confused because it seemed like there was no way to succeed in that kind of situation unless you were one of those kids who got it and were good at that kind of banter but at the same time if I didn't participate then I ate lunch alone which outside of just being lonely was fodder for further ridicule.
Sadly, 'giving each other shit', or ganging up and bullying 'gay'/weak/effeminate men (or other minorities) is the only form of bonding a lot of men experience.
I have to say, I didn't really feel jealous of the more masculine guys, nor did I feel disadvantaged or lesser because of being more feminine. I was just angry that there are such stereotypes and developed a sense of pride (and even superiority) about not conforming to them.
@@synlion Yeah I agree. I can relate to that comment, because in the past I was the same way. Thinking like all those "athletic muscle chimps" are all stupid and have no personality etc. But in the end, that's just a way for my own ego to build itself up when I see someone different from me succeeding in something I would have liked to be able to do. And instead of doing something to become more like that. I would double down on the opposite, I'm so much smarter and introspective and "cooler" in my way. While there may be some truth to that I value certain features more than others, there was never any reason for me to look down on other people to realize that I have my own positives other people may not be as adept at. I think that type of thought process comes from a place of resentment and jealousy, whether one is aware of it or not.
@@gaijinyade While I acknowledge your experience, I wasn't looking down on athletic people, I was looking down on people who'd ostracize others for not adhering to the gender stereotypes, for being so close-minded and unempathetic.
@@NoblesseOblige-17 Yeah, sounds like we have different experiences. But I still think when you reduce others to make yourself feel better It's still your ego at play. And of course It's not pleasant to admit that it could be due to insecurity in yourself but that is literally the only reason I could see as to why one would do that whole mental dance. It's also not a very empathetic way of thinking on your end. Since you do look down on others, even if you feel like they deserve it or not, that's just the thing isn't it.
I'm curious as to whether Shea would enjoy being a public speaker. Maybe speaking on his experiences to those who are younger and giving them a perspective from someone who grew up in that role. Love hearing him open up about his feeling robotic and feeling empty and having an identity crisis.
As a girl, this is some eyeopening stuff… its also really making me think. Im reading the comments about how girls say they want guys to showing vulnerability but actually not going for those guys when it comes to it. And ive certainly done that in the past myself. It got me thinking, because after all, some of the most beautiful moments in past relationships were when the guy dared to show that he has a weak side too… But - there were times when it felt unwarranted. So i wanted to share a couple of those. First there are the guys who just share way too much way too soon. Like on a second date i had this guy telling me about how his father abused him. It made me feel kinda uncomfortable to be honest. Second, sometimes i also feel like guys share a lot with me because im a girl. Like even if we dont know each other that well, they are desperate to have someone - ANYONE - listen to them so they unload on me because they cant talk to their guy friends about it. A problem comes when it comes to things where im not the right person to help. Like when were dating and they have unresolved shit about their ex which they never told anyone else. Please dont torture me with that. Third, sometimes there is a profound lack of reciprocity. Im thinking about a guy who on a first date complained about taking care of someone mentally ill and feeling really worn down by it. I told him that i went through a bad breakup recently and was in a kind of low spot myself, but we ended up talking exclusively about him for about 3 hours. To be honest, i felt like a therapist. I didnt feel connected, i felt used. He told me afterwards how great he thought i was and all i could think was “is it always going to be only about you?” I guess the point im trying to make is that being vulnerable is not the problem, but there are other cues im picking up on. Is he always going to dump all of his stuff only on me? Does he like me or is he just desperate for someone who will listen? Its not really “he showed feelings, eww” :)
You hit the nail on the head with this comment. I certainly want the men in my life to know that it's okay to talk to me about shit, and I dont judge or belittle them. However, it does make it hard to date those same guys because the baggage they dump shows sides of them that make them not compatible to date. For an example, I slept with a guy, hookup style not relationship, and during the cuddle session afterwards I was stroking the back of his head and he proceed to tell me all about how he doesnt normally let people touch his head or neck because of some trauma with his dad. And he talked for hours about his childhood, abusive dad, his drug problems, friends dying,and sooo much more. Kind of like how shea and ed said, when the faucet is on it's hard to turn it off when you're in the moment. I still talk to this guy and make a point to be his Luke and listen, and I'll never tell him to stop expressing himself because I'm afraid if I tell him it's too much he might close up again and I can see he really needed someone to just hear him. The issue is that now I cant see myself dating him for real even though he kinda hints at it because i cant handle being his therapist every night. Like for about 2 months I slept over because he didn't want to be alone, wanted to talk because I was good listener and validated his feelings, and made him feel comforted which he hadn't felt almost ever. He is just 1 example of scenarios I've had with men who dump too much too soon and it kills relationship stuff because you become a shoulder instead of a person. It also doesnt help that I have the kind of personality that makes strangers dump their issues onto me because I come off as someone easy to talk to. (And i am). I do want men to open up. I want them to be emotional. I want them to have that opportunity to vent because maybe , like shea, no one ever asked them how they feel. That's why I'll never tell a man that he's being too much or I cant handle his emotions or anything like that because to me it feels like a small sacrifice of my time to help someone overcome trauma. BUT... when I see men in the comments saying "women dont actually want emotional men" and "notice how the men who open up the her are all her FRIENDS. Not boyfriends", I think they may not realize that pretty often, men opening up happens like the guy above, and it makes moving forward in a romantic relationship harder. Just a thought.
@@collegiatefinesse Its simple. Never has it done any good for men to change based on what women say they want. Men who only listen to women and change themselves based on that get skipped for the alpha. Women contradict themselves all the time and don't know what they want. When you look at biology its quite simple. You need to be able to lead, be more logical, be like a rock for your family to fall back on etc. A woman can say she wants you to open up and be able to be emotional etc but that goes against your nature to some extend. Now of course we are still humans and we all have emotions, however often there is no point in sharing those emotions with your woman or in front of your kids as you are their leader. Imagine being in a war and your commander is getting all emotional and panicking. As a soldier you"ll lose respect for him. Now he still human and can surely pick his place to let go of his frustrations and share his emotions.. just not in front of his men. I guess it comes down to being truly masculine, being real and staying logical even when it comes to being emotional. That means you can choose when & with whom its a good time to share your problems etc
@@collegiatefinesse you are basically where the idea that men should never show emotion ever come from. men have two options, be human or be successful. most are going to choose the second
@@pathlastname9278 Men or women, *nobody* wants a laundry list of emotional baggage dumped on them. It’s a fact of life. Nobody wants to be your therapist, and sometimes people who aren’t used to being listened to become over eager to share and forget that.
@@collegiatefinesse I’m sure you mean well, but you’re entering dangerous territory here. If there’s truly no chance of you wishing to be in a relationship with this guy, maybe you shouldn’t be stroking his neck or encouraging him to express himself. How would *you* feel if someone led you on like that after being the first person he could open up to? I’ve learned this the *hard* way, sometimes a bit of detachment between friends is a good thing.
Hey Dr. K, can you do a lecture on how to process and deal with a loved one dying? My sister found her boyfriend dead a few days ago and the whole family is having trouble processing.
I'm so sorry for your loss. Words can never describe that feeling void of content. I hope you and your family find a healthy way of dealing with it. My grandfather passed away a year ago and my family as still reeling from that trauma (alongside a few of his siblings for seperate reasons). So everyone processes it differently, and I hope you find your way of reflecting on that pain and making light of a situation too grim for words. :) All the best.
As much as I appreciate you looking out for your sister, I'm assuming you're looking for words to tell her and how to help her, but she is too close to you for you to provide council, what you can do is be there for her as a brother, be nice to her, sleep over if she cant handle things for a while, listen to her etc, but if she needs professional help the best you can do is push her (not too much of course) to seek a therapist.
Josh, as much as I'm sorry for the loss, I feel the need to address that processing the loss of a loved one does not have a quick fix. Especially if the loss happened a few days ago (a month, maybe two later as I'm responding). There is no perfect way. There is no manual. As much as I appreciate you asking for help to support your sister, she and the family have to deal with it in their own way, with several outcomes. That is normal, that is life. The older you get, the more you will be able to accept the struggles in life. You say they are having trouble processing. Think for a moment, THEY ARE PROCESSING. I hope for the love of God (atheist, personally), you don't push them in any way. It is their walk of life, just support them, hear them out if they open up. You might perceive them having troubles processing, but they are processing the loss in their way. Not everyone thinks or feels like you. You have to give them the time and space. Most of all. I cannot stress this enough: NO HUMAN BEING CAN PROCESS THE LOSS OF A LOVED ONE IN A FEW DAYS. If so, they never loved.
Having a strong bond with another human being requires vunerability amd trust. Developmental psychology should be mandatory for all "civilized" people. All the confusion about who we are, what we want and what we want to be can be can be demystified by understanding basic attachment theories. .
Say you choose to feel the surface emotions without hitting depth as a way of adapting, adopting the mindset, manifesting into some sort of subconscious or conscious manner. Where would you go from there?
It's not a good identification of the intended pathology, "toxic masculinity" implies the issue to be endemic somehow to masculinity, the reality is that "toxic masculinity" has nothing to do with masculinity and actually everything to do with the alienation of femininity. So what you are identifying as humanity is in fact the feminine, to experience being human fully one requires a connection to both sides of the human coin: the solution to these issues is not to redefine masculinity in anyway, but rather to understand and accept femininity.
> Developmental psychology should be mandatory for all "civilized" people That's a poor choice of words. Native Americans were called uncivilized for having tribes. "civilized" is not a word anybody should use in real life.
I think it’s interesting that the term toxic masculinity is used often but I haven‘t heard as much about toxic femininity, which I do believe exists as well. I would define it as harmful expectations for how women should behave. I remember growing up thinking that as a woman I should be more passive, especially in relationships with men, and that it is unattractive to be forward, active or dominant. I tried very hard for a while during my teenage years to be pretty, cute and likeable and it was really not helpful for my development at all. I had to learn later to speak my mind and have the confidence to make my own decisions and draw boundaries.
I'm only half an hour in and i've only seen (part of) one other group talk on this channel. The other one with women. And i realize part of the awkwardness in this is some bad internet connections but it's faszinating to see how much easier the women got into the group talk thing. I'm sure there are other factors like the actual personalities of the people involved not just gender or the socialisation skills society expects and teaches kids of a specific gender but i feel it's at least part of it.
I'm 50 min in and this is absolutely fascinating. Dr. K is teaching grown men how to be emotionally supportive of each other. Ed said at one point, if you asked women, they'd know what to say (~45 min). Me, as a woman, is slightly alarmed that there are crickets at something that is so fundamental, necessary, and intuitive to me. Literally, showing the results of toxic masculinity. Even the guys who turned away from it. I wish that they all can grow to experience the wonderful world of being fully in your emotions, and feeling connected to people emotionally.
I remember watching The Mask You Live In, with a group of men in the company I worked (was men's day and stuff), realizing that they were talking about "man should open up more" and the benefits of while I was almost crying, but my thoughts were "you should not cry, you should not show weakness", even tho the documentary is especially about that I could not do that not in front of other people, other men... It's just sad to think about it. Nowadays I work with my sociologist to try to break this barrier and understand better my feelings, that's something I suppress my entire life.
A lot of people don't even have those kinds of friends. It's very rare for me, I wish I could have it more often. Most of the time conversations focus on the issue at hand.
@@hgzmatt I'll admit I am very lucky to have friends that I am able to talk with like that. I takes me a while to open up and feel close with people so the friends I do have I treasure. I feel for you, I hope that you are able to open up and talk comfortably when you need it and lend an ear in return.
@@1chenann I'm really happy for you. It took me a while to recover from the stuff I went through in my teens and I just need to stop moving around so much so I can build a social circle. I think I was running from it and it killed all friendships.
@@hgzmatt thanks, i hope you are okay despite circumstances and that you find the friendships you are looking for. I know online is not really the same but if you need someone to talk to you can reach out to me on discord :)
@@1chenann I really appreciate it, Annie. I do wish you lived around here somewhere and we could go for a walk or something. I don't really enjoy talking over the internet and I'm a little too cynical to just go for it. I am fine though, I moved back in with my parents while the pandemic is happening. I'm working from home and there are no serious issues other than longing for more social interactions.
I'm glad I found this. I need to be more mindful of my judgments towards people with feelings that I do not understand. I think the part that resonated with me the most was the silence. It is like the nail commercial. The nail is so obviously the problem, but the solution is not removing the nail but rather talking to the person and dealing with the problems that the person is facing...the nail is actually a symptom. I am so happy that I found this chanel. Im autistic (I think...I guess) and male and dealing with emotions is such an uphill battle.
Only a quarter of the way in but this has been one of the most insightful humbling podcast episodes I’ve ever watched. It hurts to see guys so lost and I relate completely, and we can only really progress by going through these deeply uncomfortable conversations.
This is supposed to be about toxic masculinity but I'm a girl and I relate to most of this to. I don't know how to connect and I'm isolated the biggest thing I want is to be heard to been seen by my friends and strengthen those connections.
45:08 When they didn't know how to react to Shae, and Ed nails it. It went from "Oh we're so different" ... to "Well will you look at that! We're all in the same boat!" XD ... is when I clicked the like button :P
The longer I watched this the more heartbroken I felt. Cuz like as a woman I struggle with same things, feeling lost and not sure where I start and where social expectations end, feeling isolated and unable to open up, desparate for connection, feeling scared that the worst part of you could win over you. Though I experience it from another perspective, these are the same issues non the less. I always felt so distant from men but maybe we're not so different after all.
I relate to Shea a lot. Even in this interview he's all alone up there. Wish I could've joined the call and let you know you don't have to deal with this alone, and there are others like you, Shea.
It's so strange because I'm the shy guy introvert type. But I love sports and was pretty attletic . I can relate to him when he said he used exercise to escape the world. I do that too and it's a good way to think who you are and relieve stress. Also I was the nice guy and still never got bullied during games or training or anything physical. Never saw a masculine guy be constantly toxic either. Either you call them out or just neglect them as morons and move on. No need to waste time on them. Also one thing that dominates in sports is skill and competence. You could be skinny but if you can score 3 pointers like mad dude your in the bro zone of cool or if you can run fast or have something that dominates.
This was extraordinary for me to listen to. I'm a 69-year-old cis-woman, so I'm on the opposite end of life and probably gender from these five young men. I say I'm *probably* on the opposite end of gender, because it may be that one or two of them are trans or non-binary or genderfluid. I'm a woman, as I said, and I was brought up in the 1950s/60s in a radical left-wing household, so it was a relatively feminist environment in a non-feminist society. However, my father was a strong, dominant, workaholic personality with a goodly number of traits we consider masculine. I adored him and was pretty disconnected from my mother, so I bought into the masculine values as what I *should* be and what I *wanted* to be, and yet I was bad at being a Man. At times I succeeded, perhaps, in looking like I had the masculine virtues, but I was hurting badly. I'm myself not trans, but I could perhaps be called genderqueer. I think my emotional/intellectual life is closer to that of 2020s men than 2020s women, though perhaps this isn't a very useful generalization. This video was a revelation to me in that it showed me how harmful the masculine values can be to men too, and that I wasn't bad at them so much because I was female but because the masculine assumptions and values are in large part inherently harmful. They're great for "getting things done", but not so great in other ways. I listened several times to Dr. K.'s speech that starts at 1:36:50 and ended up transcribing it, because it describes pretty well all the ways in which I "should" myself. If there is still a possibility for group coaching, I would be very interested in it -- preferably, I think, in a mixed-gender group.
What I don't like about the term toxic masculinity is that it's used to ideologically simplify the understanding of history and undermine the suffering of men. The reasoning seem to be something like "when women suffer, it's because of men. When men suffer, it's because of men".
The idea of "a man" is far more of a destructivr entity than any man or woman can be by themselves,and i hate how toxic masculinity has become a virtue signaling tool in public spaces, as you said,history gets brushed aside,so do any ideas for alternatives or a way forward. "He's toxic" and thats usually how the discourse ends.
It's almost like for hundreds and hundreds of years women's only responsibility was to make babies and take care of the house. They didn't set up society, so if you don't like society, social norms, it's hard to blame that on women.
@@sburkie9 A lot of male rulers who were terrible people were encouraged by their female lovers, so women definitely share the blame. Read Macbeth sometime.
@@sburkie9 imagine being so reductionist, lol. You just want to blame everything on men, probably out of some resentment, and you try to justify it by parroting bogus feminazi talking points. "Only men set up society" my dear God, lmao. The very fact that women "took care of the house" is disproving your point. The one who raises children has an enormous influence on society. It's a reocurring theme in many traditionalist societies that men are kinda afraid of their wives. I wonder why.
At the 1:15:00ish mark when Ed started opening up about his friend Luke, that solidified a different line of thinking for me. I've been empathizing with the guys a lot throughout this but this section is making me view some thoughts about myself in a better light. I am very much a Luke. I call myself an Empathy Monster a lot of the time in my head and throughout the years I've been this person for strangers at times and for some of my closest friends. This takes a negative turn at times because I realize that as I've been this person to some, it's almost pushed away others completely. I also see how it at times pushes those I've gotten this connection with as well because I can't stop being who I am. For a long time I've considered it my fault. I push too hard, I rip the surface away for people too quickly, I've felt like it's been my fault these people don't want to talk to me. To some extent it's true, I'm not necessarily respecting people's boundaries but moreso lately and through this discussion, I'm starting to see it as more positive than negative. Like a 60% glass half full rather than 40% full. I'm truly solidifying that, this is me, I'm someone who wants to see everyone open up and I want to be a reason for people to be open on a more consistent basis. I've been wrestling with the thought of dropping some of these unreciprocated toxic relationships for years but now I feel I have the confidence to do so. I know there are people who will benefit from me being me, and I know that they'll appreciate me enough to return the favor consistently.
I resonate a lot with your perspective. I think I've been on both sides and I still am closed off sometimes depending on who it is. I like to talk about deep stuff quickly and it can be overwhelming but there are also people who I can't deal with. If I don't trust you or if it's a group setting I don't feel comfortable. My family doesn't have a clue about all this and I always felt my mother doesn't care to hear anything substantial, it is surface level only and that stunted me growing up. Not having any emotional support. I really tried opening up to my last girlfriend but I increasingly felt like she was unable to empathize with me. She was stuck in her own head and her problems always came first.
Been watching a few of your videos Dr K, and I think the algorithm got something right for once. Thank you and well done to these young men for being so open, brave and accepting of one another during this conversation. You are all examples of how positive masculinity can be, through these conversations, through care for your brothers, and I'm so proud of the incredible emotional work you put into this conversation, and the example you have set for...172,579 viewers at the time of this comment. You deserve to feel security, comfort and support in whatever masculinity means to you. Thank you for this emotional bravery, and honesty and everything you have shared with us here.
After watching the all female panel video discussing boundaries yesterday and now watching these men discuss their experiences with masculinity, it's amazing how stark the differences are in their conversations. Maybe this was an all male panel of introverts and that was an all female panel of extroverts, but I can't describe what I was seeing today. Hesitation to share emotions or experience? Severely stunted emotional intelligence? The all female panel had deep and detailed things to say where with this panel it was like pulling teeth. Man I hope Gen Z and this new generation are given more tools to become fuller, more emotionally intelligent people than past generations. I hope TikTok and Twitch become tools to share advice... if the algorithms don't feed us more of the things that give us rage, sadness, and confirm our biases out of the sake of likes/retweets/commening/engagement to sell ads.
This kind of self understanding and willingness to be vulnerable and sincere is the type of thing I really value, but I also really value in my boyfriend.
1:19:00 'a little problem can remain a little problem because you can talk about it easily' -- that's such good advice. just start talking about your emotions
Hey, Luke here. I wanted to say how immensley humbled I am by Ed's comments about me and our friendship. It means a huge amount to me and I could barely believe what I was hearing. It's a slightly surreal experience to have your name become a descriptor synonymous with positivity, but it really means a lot to me. Ed for his part is a wonderful friend for me as well and has helped me in countless ways, especially this year with ontroducing me to Dr K and his videos. I hope all of you out there, reading this have a great day and you can find your 'Luke' or even group of close friends who care about you in the way that I and Ed care for each other
shoutout to you and ed. y’all sound like good dudes!
Which minute did he talk about you? Give us the time for those who enjoy wholesomeness pr0n.
Also, wish you the best. You seem like wonderful human beings talking about each other like that.
@@ruthtrentwood3374 1:12:24
@@ruthtrentwood3374 don't know an exact time, because I'm watching the video now and past it, but it's around 1 hour 10 mins in when Ed starts talking about his uni experience :)
You're a fucking angel, Luke
In my experience, people often claim to want men to be open and vulnerable, but they don't incentivize that kind of behavior in the slightest, they incentivize the opposite.
I think people (particularly women in a romantic setting) *want to want* men who are vulnerable and emotionally open, but when it actually happens, they can't help but perceive them as weak and kind of pathetic instead.
People like the idea of men being emotionally vulnerable much more than the reality of men being emotionally vulnerable.
i think part of this is the fact that sometimes people cant separate romantic feelings, sexual feelings and emotional bonds to other people. so what happens is that showing emotions can be something that for example doesnt help with sexual attraction but does help the emotional bond. because those are all the same to some it ruins both of them. am i making any sense? on the other hand if they could just see that moment of vulnerability as a bonding moment it could help the sexual part too because at that time those two people are connecting and sex is ultimately about connecting at least inside a relationships. but when someone is attracted to powerful and confident people and someone is vulnerable we get scared but those things dont in fact cancel each other out. those things can coexcist in one person. im rambling a bit now, just trying to make sense of this
Fucking TRUE
While I think that’s true, I also think the opposite is true. I have many male friends who are open with their emotions and vulnerable with me, and I absolutely cherish them. I think one of the big reasons this happens is because people are learning how to resist societal norms and it’s really fucking hard to do. I have noticed that my male friends who are openly vulnerable grew up surrounded/raised by positive female role models, and happened to grow up not even learning traditional male stereotypes. Unfortunately, it seems to be uncommon to find people who are very understanding or empathetic, which is why that problem is so common.
My experience has been different, I've had relationships that only started getting really intimate once we both fully opened up. The sex got better, too.
But I don't think every women I've dated were really looking for that sort of thing. Some women genuinely do like men who don't emote much. I don't think we should stigmatize either way.
That's an issue of confidence & self-esteem. If those girls push you away when you're being as vulnerable as you claim then it might had to do with an absence of appropriate validation. So its easier to project desperation, clinginess, just plain ol boring.
The most important distinction to note is that “toxic masculinity” does not mean “masculinity is inherently toxic”
Yeah and theirs such a thing as "toxic femininity" also, again doesn't inherently mean femininity is toxic!
In that case, better to just address toxicity in general rather than get caught up in all the weird politics of gender (since gender is inherently neutral, the real problem is neurosis surrounding gender).
Yea masculinity and being a Grade A asshole get conflated too often.
I don't think it's inherently bad either, but masculinity is commonly contorted into being a douche.
@@johnreedy9098 I wouldn't say gender is inherently neutral, their are less obvious subtle differences. Modern feminists would argue that fact though. However yes I would agree toxicity is the route problem!
@@johnreedy9098 In the case of toxic masculinity I think it's fair to have such a categorization because it comes from a place that generally speaking from a social standpoint only men can be toxic in that area, because it's the reinforcement of masculinity predominant traits in a toxic way, such as agression (being aggressive towards people around you more than normal), independence (such as not being able to cry, or shaming men that do so, same for financial security and etc) and stuff specifically agaisnt women such as seeing them only for their body and etc.
My father apologizing for being weak after attempting to take his own life was quite a window into toxic masculinity
I am 27 years old and it took a suicide attempt and 2 hours of silence in an emergency room for me to see him cry for the first time
Holy shit, that's devastating. Sorry you had to go through that
The fear that accompanied that situation must've been staggering but I'm happy a positive came out of it in the end brother. I have a stubborn emotionally distant father as well. I don't think he'll ever change but I've been showing him that it's okay to let your walls down. One day I'm certain he will.
That's not just a male thing, I can't think of many people male or female at that age that is cool with that.
Your father suicide attempt had nothing to do with his masculinity. There is no such thing as toxic masculinity. He was most probably suffering from clinic depression.
@@algomez8563 His idea that being a man means not crying or showing any weakness whatsoever is toxic. Apologizing for being weak after attempting to take your life is toxic. Not talking to anybody about your feelings is toxic. Doing so because you've been told and shown by other men that it's the only way to be a "real man" is precisely what toxic masculinity is.
You can't say an idea doesn't exist. Especially when you can see it in action and study it.
i'm a girl and i dont understand a lot of the male perspective, so this was really helpful. im wishing you guys all the best!
Same. As a mom and a woman, this broke my heart. Absolutely broke. My. Heart. We have done such a disservice to our men and boys. They literally don’t know how to talk about their feelings. I taught this stuff to my daughter when she was young. It’s a lesson we work on daily. To not teach our sons the same thing is awful. I don’t understand it.
I cried at a couple points. I am so sad for how these young men feel and have felt. I’m also so very proud of each of them for talking about these issues in public. I hope they are helped and I hope this helps others. They give me such hope that we will only continue to improve.
@@truckerdave8465 Some guys also just don't want to talk about their feelings and I think that should also be okay. It's kinda funny how a lot of women want guys to deal with their inner world the way most women do. if it is simply not in their nature to talk about their feelings, then so be it.
@@FeldiArts If some guys really don't want to talk about it then... yeah. You shouldn't talk about your feelings if you don't need or want to (don't know if that's good or bad, but at the end of the day, the person gets to decide how to deal with it). I feel like that goes for anyone.
If you don't mind me asking... in what way do you consider women deal with it differently than men?.
You're a girl? GET THE FRICK OUTTA HERE!
@@FeldiArts The problem isn't men not wanting to show their emotions sometimes. The problem is when men want or should share their emotions, but can't because they'll be looked down upon because "that's not how men are supposed to act."
As a woman it's interesting seeing the collective silence that fell for so long after Shea opened up and Dr K asked them what they could do in response. Ed was so right in his idea that if it were a group of women that we'd be chiming in about how we need to support, encourage, validate and cheer on our sister after opening up. And I didn't think poorly of the guys or anything. It made me think wow, I as a woman would know how to answer that because I was raised to be feminine from a young age and a part of that is the sense of being emotional and highly empathetic. Meanwhile so many men like Shea and get that stomped out of them. It's heartbreaking yet it opened my eyes to just how ill-equipped many men are to dealing with these sort of things. Women pretty much assume that everyone understand social cues like that and expect that men not only know them as well, but that when they seem to not know it's because they dont care or arent trying or pretending.
I expect that's why so many disagreements happen between men and women. We're operating under assumptions without realizing that they're incorrect. My jaw dropped during that long silence and I just heard myself going, "These poor guys." You can see them wanting so desperately to help but not knowing how because they genuinely don't have much practice at all in this.
Shea is right. Society needs to do better to help our young boys (and be patient and understanding with men as well because clearly a lot of them are still on a journey of understanding themselves and how they fit in the world with their masculinity). Parents especially need to do better. I hate the idea that boys are easier to raise because you can just leave them on their own and they'll be fine while you have to watch out for girls and protect them. This is how you get these situtations.
Massively agree it was so heartbreaking to watch how badly they wanted to help but also what looked like fear at getting it wrong.
Literally the most intelligent response on this video and that says a lot, especially since other people have made great points too.
"Women pretty much assume that everyone understand social cues like that and expect that men not only know them as well, but that when they seem to not know it's because they dont care or arent trying or pretending. I expect that's why so many disagreements happen between men and women. We're operating under assumptions without realizing that they're incorrect."
"I hate the idea that boys are easier to raise because you can just leave them on their own and they'll be fine while you have to watch out for girls and protect them. This is how you get these situtations."
*This is so true, I can't believe how spot-on this is. Super insightful.*
@@AlaReDuS So true. I realized women think most men are equipped with the same tools. Only years of aimlessly learning how to genuinely connect with people did I realize the thing I said or did was a horrible attempt at connecting and it sucked cause it seemed like everyone else figured it out.
Yeah I was listening to that part while doing chores. Honestly if I were in their shoes I wouldn't have known what to do either. I likewise would've been silent.
I’m a woman, but I felt as clueless as the guys 😂
As a woman, I found myself getting really frustrated when Shea was opening up and saying how angry he was with everyone letting him down as a person and not caring enough to explain that its ok to feel things, and the entire call was silent. But then Dr. K stepped in an addressed the silence and I realized that these guys really have not been either taught or allowed to show the kind of empathy and reassurance many women kind of expect from their friend groups. I wasnt a social butterfly by any means, and my friend groups have always been very small, but a major expectation was always to be a shoulder for whoever needed it, even if you arent the best at it, just trying to be there for your friends. Its really eye opening to see that its not just Shea who missed out on that, but all the guys here regardless of the level of masculinity they grew up with, its just not a behavior boys get encouraged to have. I feel for them :(
That wall of silence is very familiar. I don't intuitively know what empathy and reassurance even sounds like so when someone opens up like that I have no idea how to respond. My mind goes completely blank and I can't speak any words beyond "wow that sucks" and then usually making some kind of joke.
Probably there is some misconception in society.
1. It´s different to "express" emotions.
2. it´s different "having certain "emotions" as a part of your personality and identity.
Expressing emotions is something fleeting, impermanent, something that transforms into something better, calm and humorous, within one day.
Having certain "emotions" as part of personality or your "mood" is something that stays with you.
Society probably doesn´t define a two different things that expressing emotion that turns into some "humor",
isn´t the same as having a "permanent emotion" that never turns into something better...
because as people who practice meditation, say nothing is permanent anyway... therefore even the emotion is not permanent.
Therefore practicing mindfulness and meditation is so inspiring.
I was told I did great at my fathers funeral for not crying. Still think about that years later
Imagine the yearrrssss of repression the person went through (or is going through) who said that to you. Damn. One little sentence told you a lot about their experience with life.
Nah, it’s just because they are not so close like you do with your farther, so they become an idiot
This is just sad
@@简澜no is a word
I wont either cry at my fathers funeral. Good job bro. Must have been tough. I'd rather cry for myself instead of infront of everybody else.
living on autopilot.. that really hit home. That’s what it’s like to live disconnected from your emotions. There are then moments of clarity, when the river is flowing again, but before you know it, it’s back to autopilot.
I dont even know how to break out of the autopilot, I dont even enjoy anything anymore. It be difficult
I had my first break in the disconnect since quarantine started, It's not pleasant to suddenly change your feelings on things and shift your relationships with other people.
Fr
Yes
I’ve always related when men said that they’d felt ashamed expressing emotions that are considered “weak” like sadness, even though I’m a woman. I grew up in an abusive household and when I was young I learned that being weak will only hurt you. I never really felt comfortable saying this though because I feel like men who suffered from toxic masculinity would tell me that I don’t have the right to complain because I’m a woman.
Dude, same :/ i still remember my own brother saying i have no right to complain just because im a girl. We can also learn through shitty environments that being vulnerable gets you in trouble...
No matter what the issue is, the trouble is finding the right people to open up to. Once you find that, and realize that those people are willing to listen and accept, sharing becomes much more manageble.
There will be those that dont understand, or choose to not accept sadly. But finding someone more open to listen, I doubt it would be a big deal for them the gender or anything like that, the important thing as I see it, is that growing up in an abusive household sucks, and that those experiences aren't your fault.
Iam 20 and in the exact same situation i have tried to be more open about my feelings but I physically cant my mind goes blank and it makes me feel like iam only doing this for attention even though i know thats not true
I can highly relate to that, I grew up with 2 older brthers and believe me not a single one of us know how to express our feelings even though I am a girl. It has everything to do with how we were raised. Being vulnerable means to us being incompetent and weak, even to some extent allowing yourself to be sort of a prey. Pretty fcked up now that I think about it.
you don't have the right to complain tho....stop whining
"As men we fix things."
Wow that struck more of a chord with me than I expected. I always try to help, or offer my help, but sometimes, maybe more often than not, the best help I can give is just to listen and sit with them in whatever it is.
men are better problem solvers which is why i feel we think this way
I’m literally trained to sit with people and still catch myself trying to fix them when they don’t want it.
Bit of an old post but this resonates with me too. I really struggle to not offer solutions when people bring me problems when sometimes they just want emotional support and I think I barely even know how to do that.
@@mikasasukasa4479 do you think that may be because emotions are shrugged off so guys get straight to the point of what can be practically done? Maybe emotions are too wild of a beast to understand and bother taming, and it's easier to just slay them, technically
@@christopherholfeld8137 oh that's actually bad. It's often important to let people just vent because the situation is stressing them out. Even if there's an easy solution to it, solving it doesn't always resolve the stress like that. Giving someone advice when they just want to vent is almost like you insult them as people that don't know how to solve their own problems like adults. Oftentimes they know how to solve it and will do so the next day, they just want to share their struggle and relate to other people through the stress that is human life.
If you do it without realising it, try to ask in the beginning of a conversation what the point is, if it's to vent or if someone actually wants advice.
Does anyone feel like the term "toxic masculinity" should be flipped around to "masculine toxicity" to better describe it for what it is? Changing toxicity to be the object in the sentence and masculine to being the adjective, as the toxicity is what we focus on and the flavor is "masculine" variety.
A subtle but important distinction.
That's actually a very good idea. It would be more accurate. It could also curb some of the outrage over the subject, with "masculinity" not being the primary subject matter. Of course people will always try to misconstrue, but it would take away the argument that toxic masculinity implies that masculinity is toxic
Something that is toxic will always be inherently bad in my mind. There is no way to soften the idea of something being toxic. No adjective you use will make something toxic into something good. So using masculinity as an adjective/descriptor sounds like you're villainizing masculinity even more to pile on the idea that there are varying types of toxicity, but this type is the masculine brand of toxicity.
Honestly there's nothing wrong with the term "toxic masculinity". By it's very nature, it implies that positive, healthy masculinity exists. The fact that you're specifying "toxic" as the adjective, there has to be an opposite that gives the adjective weight. The adjective "big" only has meaning because of the inherent idea that some things can be small or normal sized. Toxic masculinity is the idea that masculinity is fine on a baseline level but, like anything good, you have the extremes where it can become a negative thing. The issue is that people think that toxic masculinity means that all masculinity is toxic when it's just describing one negative extreme. Leaving toxic as the adjective indicates that there is another, healthy variation by default.
I think instead, we should spread awareness of toxic femininity. I don't think reversing the order of the words will really change people's perceptions.
@@ZariDV yeah for real lmaoo I can't understand why people interpret it otherwise
Dr K's proud dad energy in this one is beautiful. These guys are doing so great
Man, I'm so envious of all the guys on this channel who are 20 years old and such self aware enough to start figuring themselves out. While I've spent all my 20s completely lost not even knowing that I'm lost. Best years of my life down the drain.
I understand what you’re feeling, but try not to keep telling yourself that you’ve lost the opportunity to have your best years. Everyone has their best years at different stages. For some people it will be their early childhood, but like in the case of my mother, she says she’s currently living her best years (at almost 60). Then there are others who are determined to make their every decade better than the last one, which is more enviable in my opinion. The idea that we can only have a small span of great years and then the rest of our lives is downhill is super depressing AND suppressing for ourselves. We’ll only gradually decline in satisfaction if we decide to allow ourselves to. I hope this can at least somewhat encourage you because I hate the idea of you feeling that way.
@@CestLaVieMonAmor Hey, thanks for support, I appreciate it!
I'll second Katelyn. Hard as it may be, don't focus on time wasted. Besides, if you see it like that, it means you're not doing it anymore and you're not stuck or stagnated. You'd really be in trouble if you were blind to it. Basically, I'm saying don't regret the time you didn't spend growing, but rather see your recognition of it as the first step away from it. Congrats! It's like how truly crazy people don't know they're crazy. If you think you're crazy, you're not.
@@bennymountain1 huh , and here I thought I wasn't enough self-aware in my teenage years. It's relieving to know that it happens at different times. You should know that I'm only 19 and can relate to what you are feeling so I understand you a little bit. Wish you luck man! :)
Same here. I'm 27 and I feel like I've wasted so much time. Chasing women that I knew wouldnt choose me, feeling like I'll never grow up, being down on myself about everything. Just an emotional wreck.
To me personally this has been the most eye-opening and inspiring discussion so far. I've always had trouble connecting with people on a deeper level, and these guys walked through how to do it. This stuff was free as well! The internet is amazing sometimes.
I'm only 7 minutes in and, as a woman, I'm so GRATEFUL to have access to such a beautiful conversation! Thank you so much for this!
Thank you for doing this work. I'm an older woman (41) so when I see younger men suffering the motherly part of me hurts. I want men to be happy and healthy and for men and women to live together harmoniously with minimal suffering on both sides. I want us to stop attacking each other and instead attack unhealthy behaviour no matter where it comes from.
I agree and i think it is important to teach people how to express thier emotions and how to find support in their friend group, but I feel like the entire conversation around masculinity is negative and toxic masculinity is the only masculinity people hear about. So many young men would be better served learning about healthy masculinity.
@@secretly_obamas_boyfriend healthy masculinity is what we as men should strive for and the first step is understanding what those terms mean. Men should support and uplift each other. Toxic masculinity is recognizing what traits hurt men and constrain our roles in society.
I think it was really important to have Shea on. He brought a lot of energy and light to the discussion that would have been entirely absent-aside from Dr K. playing devil’s advocate-without him.
And while “grass isn’t greener on the other side” is an annoying proverb, it’s also true. Especially in the extremes. Hypermasculine men are hypermasculine often because they are shoved into that box with the lid closed and never given any air to breathe. They live a life of desperation, pressure, fear, fragility; never allowed to peek their heads out. And like Shea said, they throw themselves entirely into exercise, sports, sleeping around, bullying, fighting, etc. to distract or delude themselves of their internal reality. “Fuck it, I’ve got nothing else to turn to, I’ll be the beat at this. This is what men are supposed to be.” I speak from experience on that. No number of women slept with fixes the problem, no number of fights, no amount of exercise or insults. It’s isolating as fuck. Enraging. Quietly terrifying. You know you’re just making the box smaller with every step but you don’t know how to get out. No one taught you how to build your own.
Damn. Beautifully put.
Holy shit dude... watching this makes me relate to all of them so much in ways I never expected to. Thank you Sam, Omer, Ed, Quinton and Shea for sharing your perspectives and thank you Dr K and HealthyGamer for making it possible!
Once I tried opening up to a (guy) friend of mine about a period of depression I had just had. His response: "why didn't you tell us, so we could make fun of you". Nothing else. Then I realised exactly why I have only been able to open up to my girl friends.
Sheas definition of it being masculinity above humanity is really good
Vice is just one virtue elevated above all else (probably a paraphrase).
im stealing that definition
You do realize that example is clearly over thinking it. It matches with dr k previous topic about why you think people dislike you. It’s way overboard.
@@Noflexing100 I don’t think it’s way overboard, as a lot of times men are told to do “masculine” things even when they can hurt their health, mental health or social life and relationships.
@@BringBackOGClubPenguin I hear this a lot but don't see it
Shea saying it's conditioned us to be emotionless robots is hilariously sad and true. We haven't had a chance to develop our emotions and understanding of them to be open and communicative in social situations. I'm very comfortable socially, but I do not open up and allow myself to be vulnerable. I'm glad I've started to change that but it's insidious and hard to remember.
I wonder how much of the emotionless robot trait is a result of toxic masculinity vs. emotional depravation from parents growing up. I'm curious if some people are conflating these two things.
@@Marusinae I can see that possibly being confused, so I'm sure some people are conflating those two. It's hard to separate them too though, because the emotional depravation from the male parent can also be toxic masculinity. Dads are also societally driven to not be emotional, give tough love, etc. But I can see that there could be another cause when it's from a parent.
@@yuchant In the cases of an emotionally depriving father, usually there would be a mother that would pick up that slack. However, either parent is capable of emotional depravation and in my case it was my mother whom I lived with because my parents divorced, so I've become a bit of an emotionless robot myself. I just think that as a society, we shouldn't assume men being emotionless is due entirely to toxic masculinity, other factors may exist like in my case. Basically, view things on a case by case basis rather than just apply a blanket reason for why certain types of people exhibit certain behaviours.
@@Marusinae Ah I understand. I hope I didn't give off the impression I was making a blanket statement. I used the word "can" to suggest it's only a possibility. I agree with you that we shouldn't think men being emotionless is entirely due to toxic masculinity.
If you don't mind me asking, how do you think being with your divorced mother made you an emotionless robot?
@@yuchant Nah, don't worry about it. My mom was too focused on herself, especially during the most formative years of my childhood. She was always too busy working and finding another man pre and post divorce during her off work hours, constantly incurring debt by buying beauty products and jewelry off of infomercials, she would just leave me to my own devices and didn't really pay any attention to me outside of needing to provide basic needs like food, clothes, shelter, occasional medical checkups. When she was in the middle of all the divorce stuff and during the times she was single afterwards, she was angry and unpleasant to be around 75% of the time. If I came to her with a problem, it was usually met with either hostility or not really caring about it.
As someone who was bullied quite a bit in school during those times as well as being picked on by my older brother and sister, I didn't really have anyone to rely on. I only got to see my dad twice a month and he was often busy with work.
Off Topic but, would really love Dr K to interview Never Give Up (the "ugly guy"), I think Dr K would really be able dissect his thoughts.
Yeees!!
Sorry my ignorance, but who?
@@cerealofdoom2125 search for "being ugly my expérience"
@@cerealofdoom2125 Never Give Up (NGU) is a a guy who is sort of known for being ugly. He blew up from a video talking about his life and what it’s like being very ugly. He still has a pretty positive outlook on his life even though he was dealt a bad hand, and many people admire him for that. Just look up “NGU Ugly” for more information.
@@qwertyasdf4081 Thank you man, appreciate it
I really wish people would understand that the term "toxic masculinity" does NOT imply that "all masculinity is toxic", in the same way that the term "bacon cheeseburger" does not imply that "all cheeseburgers have bacon in them," or that the term "electromagnetic radiation" does not imply that "all radiation is electromagnetic." Toxic masculinity strictly refers to certain harmful norms that are associated with masculinity, like pressuring masculine people to be stoic, or all the other problems they talk about in this video. It isn't a "problem with men," either; toxic masculinity is a societal problem that is just as reinforced by women as it is by men.
There are obviously great ways to do masculinity! As a feminist, if you're a man out there who wants to be a big, brash, confident, macho powerlifter dude, then I think that's awesome and that you should go for it! But I want for you to make that choice for yourself. I don't want society to pressure you into feeling you have to be that way if you don't want to, and to revoke your proverbial "man card" if you fail to live up to those expectations.
All radiation is electromagnetic tho
@@MLGeorge Gravity, sound and heat would like to know your location, my dude
amazing statement!
@@ShazyShaze so heat, in the form of "sun" radiation is infrared radiation, sound is a form of vibration energy in the form of excitement of matter and gravity in an inert function of mass.
Radiation is electromagnetic lmao. Agree with the sentiment tho :DD
My heart goes out to these young men, what a hell of a situation to be in. I am so grateful for this conversation. I am going to save it (never take it down Dr. please) and when my grandson can understand these concepts, I am going to discuss things like this with him. Although I have had very deep conversations with my sons, we did not go into issues like this and I am so regretful.
As much as I see women support men and our feelings ONLINE... I don’t see that in real life happening for anyone.
It is all bullshit and grandstanding. Be aware of those who demand you show them your weakness. Respect must be earned. The care and trust in each other, actions that show loyalty. The courage to call wrong actions.
@@really-._.- true
It happened for me with my current gf, but I had to go to some others that were not ok or surprised when I showed vulnerability. Looking back on it, back then I built an image on me being cool and dettached, so I don't know, a little of society's fault, a little mine. Good luck out there
It's happening for me a lot. My better friends are female.
Check out Arash Dibazar and Shane Smith to learn the truth about male-female dynamic
Also, Shea is very clear and intentful, and asks very good questions. Hed make a good psychologist.
i was thinking the same thing! he is very insightful and wellspoken
I think he said he was a bartender, oftentimes they act like therapists as part of the job
Yeah very clear headed and able to phrase his thoughts and emotions easy to understand and feel connected to.
He seems like a pretty well rounded person. I'm sad his emotions about his past dont allow him room to recognize that fully
Part of disconnecting yourself as hard as somebody like Shea is that to understand human interactions, you stop understanding them in emergent ways and sort of understand everything as an action. When he said something along the the lines of "Humans are just made up the skills they act out" you can tell he's thought a lot about his place in social interacts. I've felt this way a lot too, what's the purpose of optimizing myself if I don't have "joy". You become good enough at understanding behaviors of people and yourself but there's literally this "feeling" people say they have that Shea says he doesn't feel, and I also don't feel.
This is genuinely my favorite episode and I think it holds a lot of value for any person. Thank you.
Always thought of this issue in regards of "expectations around a man's feelings in this way:
- This "ideal man" is somewhat like a old school car, while his mental wellbeing is the passenger driving it. Old cars looked very sturdy on the outside as on crashes they will retain their external shape a lot more compared to today's cars. But on the inside they had very little safety measures for the passenger, and most often than not that sturdiness would end up killing the passenger because the car wouldn't change it's shape nor have stuff like airbags, detaching engine block, etc to protect them from dying.
Whereas men and anyone else really should behave like new cars. New cars seem "weaker" because of all the plastic pieces, thinner metal profiling and how they deform on impact in a crash, but actually they are doing a lot of work to protect the passenger. Because that is what really matters. Retaining your external shape after a crash (a negative situation) means shit if it's at the expense of damaging your passenger (your inner self/mental wellbeing). The old school car might seem "fine" on the outside, but with no driver alive it doesn't mean anything, but a crash survivor that was protected by the vehicle can still get another one and continue with life.
What i'm trying to say here is that "looking weak" is as temporary as the duration of the manifestation of our grief/sadness on a situation that hurt us emotionally. But bottling that up for the sake of this toxic masculinity has ever-lasting consequences on our mental health. Lastly, manifesting our grief is what actually "protects" us like the new car protects it's passenger in a crash, by giving us the space to suffer just the right amount at the right time. Because once the "right time" passes, the right amount becomes more and more difficult to quantify and manage if we didn't so back when it was needed.
And this comes from someone that just realized on the past years that it has become increasingly difficult for me to manifest my own grief when i'm around with people. It just massively sucks and goes to show how deep rooted some of these issues with the perception of what men should be and behave, are.
That comparison is insanely apt hot damn. Explains a lot on why my family isn't supportive of my "low and slow" approach to life. I wanted a gap year before college, that didn't happen and I cracked in year 2, failing so many exams I decided to just not show up for the last one so I could repeat the year. Nobody seemed to care about the underlying problems, I could see that they just grudgingly accepted my choice because they couldn't force me to do it. Same thing now, though I may have been making headway (or have grown delusional) because I have received far more understanding. I just...sometimes lie awake at night after having done nothing the day before and I feel like screaming in frustration because I'm pretty smart, I learn fast, I SHOULD be able to do it. But I can't. I just...see how much work there is to do and I choke. I need to dole it out in such a way that the deadlines are not on the same day because otherwise I just can't do any of them. And the words start ringing in my ears "you're not capable of anything". So with all this baggage I need to be like a modern car, flow with things when I can so I don't hurt myself even more. And if I look bad because of it from others' perspective, fuck 'em. I don't have to care about what judgemental people think. Until they care to learn my side of the story without me screaming it at them during a desperation-fueled breakdown, I don't care about their opinions.
Perfect analogy.
This is dead on what toxic masculinity, or any kind of upbringing that reinforces externally perceived strength, is like. In my case I had tiger parents who reinforced this kind of personality. You're not encourage to show or talk about feelings leading to what you described.
Problems with analogies like this is that they make for very bad arguments in general. And I doubt this case is any special.
After all, what if you need to keep going in life and the right amount hasn't passed yet? What if you need to pay the bills to move on? What if the society needs more houses to be built, and the construction workers are too depressed? Do we just give the workers a tome off for as long as they need just so they can take care of their "mental well-being"?
Businesses need to be run, society needs to function, kids need to be fed, bills need to be paid, houses need to be built, food and products need to be transported. You don't just give people the freedom to not do these things bevause it's had a bad impact on their mental health.
Society would end up broke if it functioned with your mindset.
And what do we do if manifesting our grief leads us to do stupid things? For example, isn't the average dude who pays for camgirls letting his grief "manifest" and releasing it by paying for cam shows? Isn't that sexual/romantic pleasure gained from paying camgirls temporarily helping him overcome any grief he may or may not have? Isn't he more in touch with his grief than a dude with similar past experiences but neglects that desire for romance and doesn't pay for camgirls?
Problem is, acting on your emotions has a negative impact on your life directly, whereas making rational decisions has a negative impact on your "mental well-being". And it simply isn't always clear which to prioritize. And not only that, sometimes you simply can't afford to be emotional and make the stupid decisions people tend to make when they appeal to emotions.
I am years late to this comment but I wanted to say that what you said was super powerful and insightful
24:21 "Dont give us the conclusion, paint us a picture."
I should follow this advice as well. I usually assume no one cares what I say and I should keep things as short as possible...
Man id love for this conversation to be continued, its amazing to hear and i feel like so much is left untouched and that they were just getting warmed up
I watched this live and this stream was what pushed me to sign up for group coaching on HealthyGamer. I really loved having more perspectives and people to hear from. This was a really beautiful stream to watch.
I'm a girl and I like Dr K because he has helped with my anxiety and other stuff. I know not all the information applies to me but some of the advice is universal.
A lot of it is, glad u found Dr.K and glad you're making progress!!!!
This can actually apply to you so that you can try to prevent reinforcing toxic masculinity when talking to other guys
I feel like a lot of specific things Dr K deals with are more universal than it may initially seem
To add on to what others have replied about females also perpetuating toxic masculinity, just look at Shea -- it was his mom telling him what type of guy girls would like that really stuck in his head. So whether or not you have kids, want them in the future, or are around young impressionable persons, taking this into mind is helpful!
@@CMDAwesome women do not have control over what turns them on(this applies to men as well). it is practically impossible for women to stop the reinforcement of toxic masculinity at a grand scale
As someone who was cautious of using the term 'toxic masculinity', this was very insightful to listen to this chat and see the "inexperience" men have in communicating their emotions. Definitely need more of this and look forward to learning together!
This term is accurate - however there doesn't seem to be much clarity on what positive masculinity is. It feels like the toxic elements are the ONLY elements, and even these now are being promoted in women; to be strong, dominant, decisive, independent. It can be helpful for them obviously - but there's a lot of kind, gentler women now that will feel the similar inadequacies in the future as men do now.
@@Balloonbot Because the term is useless except for political agendas. We are basically talking about masculine traits going extreme and what's extreme is a whole another topic. The same goes for toxic femininity.
@@DarkThagan Well many defects are just the inability to temper qualities. Just like determination can veer into stubbornness, calm can veer into apathy or being healthily distant from situations when it's called for veers into callousness. Look at it the other way, in a medical sense we have the term "a toxic dose of" which means an amount of something, usually a drug, that would have very positive effects in the right amounts but gets overused and becomes unhealthy. Exact same thing with masculinity.
@@chukyuniqul The distinction there though is that we don’t label the drug itself as toxic. The toxicity is attached to the excessive quantity. Toxic masculinity as a term does the opposite of this. It’s not specific to any particular masculine behavior or to what degree it’s expressed. It just paints masculinity broadly as “toxic” in some vague way.
@@samuelroskelley2413 as we can see in this video, that is not the case. Nobody says self-control or liking pretty women is toxic (nobody sane, anyways), we say it's toxic to harass other men for not conforming to the traditional male stereotype. It's toxic to emasculate guys for not being as physically strong or emotionally aloof. It's toxic to objectify women and act entitled to their affection, not to shoot your shot with a girl you fancy as long as you do it politely and take no for an answer if it's the case. It's not bad to be determined, but it's bad to be stubborn. It's not bad to be decisive but it's bad to be impulsive. It's not bad to lead but it's bad to dominate. And so on.
This might be buried in the comments, but as a guy with heavy depression and anxiety, learning to voice and explain my emotions, even though it is so unbearably hard most of the time, it is the most incredible thing, I am "Luke" for other people most of the time because I am open about the shitstorm that is life, but be your own Luke for the people you have close
it's definitely something people have to learn and not something that comes naturally to many, especially when it wasn't taught in your family.
This means you can actually introduce that to circles of men, because from my experience, most men are struggling with something and have nowhere to open up to.
it's definitely something people have to learn and not something that comes naturally to many, especially when it wasn't taught in your family.
This means you can actually introduce that to circles of men, because from my experience, most men are struggling with something and have nowhere to open up to.
I love the nameplates! They help a lot.
Toxic masculinity is also enforced by women , I've had many women who have said that they are open to me talking about my emotions but whenever I've actually expressed them in an open and honest way it's never worked out well for me and I can always tell i was percieved as weaker.
Edit - was not meant to be a women bashing comment , I've had many great and supportive women In my life. Was just trying to make the point that it's an issue that we both need to work on , ie men work on certain behaviours they have been taught and women work on what they have been taught to be acceptable or attractive.
FINALLY an insightful comment. Hypermasculine and "toxic" masculine traits have been rewarded with reproductive access in primate species to the extent that its a trope. Shea's mom was remarkably self aware compared to the feminist goons menstruating over the comments section with more man blaming in a video meant to help men.
@@VastChoirs it's not taught by women, its taught by men. Sure women condone it, but the source is from men. Little boys do not interact with women in that way, they interact with their fathers or other men who teach them toxic traits. Men have most of the blame, but women also carry some, much like watching someone drown and not doing anything.
@@supertrollfaxnoprinter3329 Why do men teach it to their boys? Why do women teach their girls to dress pretty and wear makeup? We set up our children for reproductive success whether we realize it or not. We as men know what women want, and we pass it on to our boys.
And yes, women are at fault as well. Studies have shown that women across many cultures hold their babies differently by gender. Girls are held closer to the body and in a more loving manner, and boys are held further from the body.
This stuff starts at birth, and it starts with the mother.
@@kassokilleri2ff if you truly think dads intentionally model and bring up their kids for reproductive success you’re silly. Dads model their kids after themselves. They teach them the values that they themselves hold. No parent intentionally raises kids to be sex monsters. Men teach boys toxic masculinity and that’s plain and simple.
Oh and that whole thing with mothers holding their baby different probably won’t a huge effect on someone
@@supertrollfaxnoprinter3329 "only one of the sexes does this" "this sex has most of the blame" what's your issue? How come you are so biased, yet unaware of it?
It’s really telling how silent the group is when Dr K poses a question to the group. Men are so unused to talking about their emotions, discouraged from talking about them, and conditioned to suppress them that they honestly don’t know what to say.
It's heartbreaking.
It's also a sign that there's no dominant person in the group, and that there's ambiguity about who should answer first.
I'm only at the introductions and Dr K has already made me feel A LOT better.
14:30 look at how everyone starts moving/fidgeting when he suggests them talking to each other. Really interesting
@Abz it gave them a lot of pressure because a lot of guys have never done this before if anything they are told their entire live from a young age to actively avoid this and that they shouldn't do this. Guys never have been taught and told ok lets have a conversation in a group and lets talk about each other emotions and ask questions about it.
They don't know how to do this or do it well and now they are asked to talk to another guy about his emotions in front of thousands if not millions of people online
@@harold926 That's true for everyone. If a group of random women were asked to do this, it would be the same.
Who honestly wants to be talking about their personal emotions to total strangers and also have it posted online. Thats perfectly natural nothing to do with men not know how to emotions.i
@@juanfromdennys you just blatantly downplayed his comment and everyone who feels the way they just described.
Any sort of group interaction around a designated topic is tricky, especially over the internet.
I was told to open up and talk about my feelings and she never looked at me the same again. I wasn’t strong to her anymore. And the relationship died.
I actually really disagree with Dr. K about one thing. At the very end he talks about bringing women into this group, and I feel like men really need a space for developing masculinity that doesn't involve the judgement of women. I had those kinds of spaces when I went to a college that was 95% male, and it's helped me later in life, especially with a lot of guys who don't feel like they can get along with guys.
I agree with you, to me it's logical, and it's something we do or want to do as women as well : having spaces where we can discuss things more openly, between peers and without the fear of judgement from the other gender. We all need both kinds of spaces : the "between men" and "between women" discussion spaces, and then other open spaces where we can share and explain. They serve different purposes.
Agree
I was in Boy Scouts and I’m really great full for the perspective it gave me. There were boys that I looked up to and boys that disappointed or scared me. Their actions and character helped me better understand the man that I wanted to become, and I don’t think I could’ve seen their true nature had it not been an only boys environment.
Totally agree. It's also important to destroy this idea that male spaces are inherently dangerous.
I'm glad if you think this helped you, though not sure how much- IME, and the experience of many other men I've known throughout life and natural pattern observation of others, it is more so the males (especially the toxic ones) that enforce such pressures/judgement of gender, to both genders. In fact, having to stay in a space of mostly men to 'develop masculinity' indirectly does the same thing (perhaps even more so judgemental and even sexist) intended to avoid. I can honestly say I haven't met many males with this viewpoint, esp in terms of self-help.
14:50 "I'm going to launch a boat, and I want you guys to row."
*Nervous fidgeting all around*
i feel that 100%. when the teacher says he's gonna start calling on random people
Yeah, I was really interested in this subject , but in the beginning this video was like pulling teeth....
Self soothing gestures all around 🤣🤣
To all men out there I highly recommend a book "Under Saturn's Shadow: The Wounding and Healing of Men" by James Hollis. One of the most personally and spiritually impactful things I've ever read. After finishing it I felt like I was thirsty my whole life without even knowing it and finally got a sip of water
Thank you for the work that you're doing Dr.K!
Сильно повлияло?
thank you for sharing, brother
I just can't get over the fact that Shea has a washing machine in the background. On one hand he's got a really good mic and arm and everything, but his setup is seemingly placed in the bathroom or something, and that just resonates with me.
It's funny because, when you get a bunch of girls together, there's non stop talking. Here there were pockets of absolute silence, even I felt like a part of it like 'what do I do? Does he want to be comforted or something'. The silence made me feel included.
A bunch of *socialized* girls would do that.
A bunch of socialized guys would do that too tbh.
This interview is good because it has 2 sides of the masculinity coin. I really like how theres people who suffered from toxic masculinity, but there also is a man who lived in the masculinity. Very well thought out, good job Dr. K!
the point is that shea himself also suffered from toxic masculinity. i think the point of this interview essentially became to show that toxic masculinity is negative on both sides of the coin, and even those who live in it or embody it are harming themselves as much as others
@@deensama7718 I mean Shea is exactly what I considered as the standard victim
As an Irish guy that went to an all boys school growing up with the same social stigmas that these guys are talking about (as I'm sure SO many guys can relate to), this was super wholesome to watch and listen to. Thanks for thinking of doing something like this Dr. K, and I hope all of these guys and anyone else watching can learn from it.
It'd be incredible to see a follow up to this, even if it had a different topic or format
Great discussion Dr K and respect to these guys exposing themselves to the trolls. Omer's accent is heavenly.
Oh yes yes all the men here are beautiful and I love Omer's accent. Men are pretty cool when they accept who they are.
Sometimes its not about building someone a house to live in, its about letting them know you care about them and that your door is open if they need a place to rest.
no one does that
@@vivvy_0 Which part / what do you mean?
@@vivvy_0 people do it, you just haven’t found them yet
@@vivvy_0 im sure you will find people like that
I don't understand what you mean by this but I liked reading it so I think it's a good thing lmao
"When we intellectually answer something for our selves, we reduce our motivation to to go out and do." That's an enlightening nugget.
This is actually a nice example of a well-run group session. All the participants are awesome and work REALLY well together! I wish we would've gotten to hear more from Quinton and Sam.
This is easily the best group session so far for me. I've cried twice and I'm only halfway through. Sincere thank you to the brave men who came to this, y'all are awesome.
To give an answer (which is a non answer for some I know) to the question this video posed; "Is it okay to be a sensitive man?" The answer to that is "Yes, but the margin between sensitivity and weakness is razor thin". It's very difficult to put down a firm definition on this, cause it's a mostly undefined characteristic combined with the gray setting of life. It just depends.
There are traits in life that one simply must master, otherwise life'll become more difficult. For instance, the ability to stand up for oneself. The ability to take care of oneself. The ability to reflect, etc. At the same time, you are fulfilling a cultural role in your society, which is for a large part determined by your sex. Is it archaic? For a part, but it's also necessary, because the lessons behind the role are INGRAINED into you on a subconscious level.
The more I read about this (especially from Jung) the more I realized that yes, the inability to have the choice in "being" festered on us by god/fate/chance (take your pick) is "unfair". And yet it is this exact feature of life that makes life meaningful; To be challenged in life, coupled with your own advantages and disadvantages, and to find out who you truly are as a person on a multi-faceted level (As a man, as a worker, as a parent, as etc.) gives life meaning. It is not something to be lamented over, in my humble opinion.
That is a very insightful perspective. Many people I’ve personally met would characterize themselves mentally as a victim of circumstance rather than look for ways to overcome their background. It’s not really healthy to believe that everything wrong in your life is out of your locus of control, and that you have no power over it.
Don't strive to be a "good man", strive to be a good person. If you're a "good man" then sure, people will like you, but if you end up feeling miserable like Shea then there is no point, is there? Since isn't the reason why you want people to like you in order to be happy? It's an awful strategy.
What's the difference?
@@TheBetweenSkill can you elaborate?
@@Birrrrra being a good man = trying to fit into the society's expectation of what they tell you're supposed to be
being a good person = trying to better yourself not for the sake of any expectation you're trying to achieve but for the sake of your own self to your own desire.
The thing is everyone should just be a good person but society has alot of these gender roles that makes people strive for these gender roles rather than themselves, i think thats the best way i thought of explaining it.
@@neutrality0085 can't a good man better himself for no reason other than self fulfilment?
@@Birrrrra ah i see what you're going for here but unfortunately i don't think what you're talking about is a matter of whats the right or wrong way but rather this is a matter of context, it seems you're placing being a "good man" similarly on the spot as just simply being a good person i assume? if thats the case then we are all on the same page although this should really just be called being a good person regardless of the gender associated. What the topic at hand is talking about however is the gender role stereotype version of a "good man", as this is tackled in this video the invisionment of a good man induced by society's gender roles that creates various identity problems and surpression of certain emotions and a toxic stereotype of the gender as a whole as we see in this video itself, the thing about a "good man" is this doesn't exist and shouldn't exist in my opinion, everyone is themselves and should just strive to be a good person, a man can be just as nurturing and sensitive as a woman would be with their stereotypes and a woman could be just as similar to a man with their stereotypes, do you get it now? I myself have an example of such right in my family, my mom is far stronger than me my dad and my brother and if she were to be a man she would be way more "masculine" than any person i've met so far, shes a security guard and those who know her respect her for who she is, she doesn't take shit from anyone, is mentaly stronger and is overall the female version of a chad i'd say.
I'll tell you all this:
If all women said "I don't want a man who is their true authentic and emotional self." Then, I, personally, would never want any women in my life ever.
stop caring if people will not like you for who you are and start liking you for yourself. You will find friends who like you for you.
all these guys are awesome. I love seeing men open up and talk about and share their experiences. Great work all of you!
I am a girl too but I had the chance to grow in a rather non conservative family and I completely agree on the fact that men also suffer a LOT from toxic masculinity and I am happy to see people opening up willingly and being so brave even though they will be on the Internet and that’s gonna change things !
Dr.K is a pearl ✨
None of the masculine role models in my life have ever been or promoted toxic masculinity. They've usually been the ones that opened me up to being vulnerable.
Most of the feminine figures in my life have promoted toxic masculinity, though.
The thing is that men and women are equally prone to internalising and perpetuating sexist ideas (studies show that), whether that be toxic masculinity or toxic femininity, but it's not acknowledged often enough. It's often portrayed as if women are just naturally more "woke" which ironically is (benevolent) sexism itself. In the end, it's a matter of luck or bad luck what role models one grows up with by chance
@@pandapanda246 Yeah. It's really about toxicity targeted at and implanted into men from society. Men are very much victims in this too when they're inculcated with toxic masculinity.
@@LagMasterSam I think a huge part of the discussion is that men suffer because of toxic masculinity and are very much victims of it, but somehow it's hard for a lot of those victims to see the connection. For example the reason why men have such a hard time to get the right to their children in family court even if they are the better parent is the notion that men are inherently worse parents compared to women, which stems from the idea of the unemotional man (toxic masculinity) and the Mother archetype (all women are motherly --> toxic femininity) victims of this will say it's women's fault that they get treated so unfairly, when this is missing the point, in fact it's a sexist idea that is perpetuated by men and women equally. Men and women suffer through sexism in different ways but both suffer and both perpetuate sexism, so the solution is to work on it together instead of pointing fingers to the other gender. I wish more would understand the depth of it.
Exactly.
@@pandapanda246The fact that people can't see it this way is terrible.
thumbnail gives off "i just asked if i could think for a second" vibes
Lol
I'm kinda disillusioned with the term 'toxic masculinity'. For a group that talks constantly about the importance of language and how words can hurt people, feminists seem to have no qualms risking hurting men by using this phrase. It's a 'motte and bailey' tactic, the word implies that masculinity has inherent toxicity within it, and when men point that out, feminists retreat to the bailey of it actually means society's harmful expectations on men.
Okay, so why don't you call it that then? If 90% of people don't understand what the term actually means when reading it, it's a crappy term and you should stop using it. If you care about our emotions so much, why don't you take that into account when we say that term feels pretty insulting to us?
There is a great series on the Guardian called 'Modern Masculinity' where a journalist Iman Amrani talks to men about what it means to be a man in today's society. In an interview on Russell Howard, she says that she doesn't use the phrase toxic masculinity she thinks that it details the conversation and men wouldn't talk honestly if she used that phrase.
Excellent, underrated comment.
Putting an adjective in front of a noun doesn't imply that it's present in all or most cases of that noun! It's like saying stray dog, spoiled food, pretty girl, radical feminist. It's just a subsection. Just how radical feminist =/= feminists are (all) radical, toxic masculinity =/= masculinity is (all) toxic.
I suspect you are familiar with New Discourses.
Shea isn't alone. I was born a suburb kid and around age 8, my Dad started moving us around for a career climb. By 12, he was the CEO of a large network marketing company. People didn't expect physical prowess in the way Shea described from me, but they expected success. I literally cannot remember the last time someone in my immediate family asked me if I needed help; everyone around me always defaulted to assuming I'm good. In the moments I communicated I wasn't, everyone always took it as some massive shock that I couldn't perform at 300% where most people around me were struggling to maintain 40%.
Don't treat people this way, it really screws them up.
I fucking LOVE hearing dudes talk about what's inside of them. I think men are fascinating, multi-layered, beautiful creatures, and what sucks so much about toxic masculinity is that they are constantly stifled so they cannot be their true selves, and by extension, WE also don't get to enjoy their true selves either, because they've all got those masks on. Imagine if the world was safe and open enough for men to feel good about openly being themselves. It would be like existing on this planet with a different species. We've done men such a disservice by raising them in this social environment, and I can't wait to see society do better as men become more emotionally healthy. And this isn't all on men to fix themselves. Most men are raised by women, and it needs to start there.
Im a year late but your comment struck a chord with me.
Thabk you for your empathy... Truly.
I dunno why i felt the need to say that to you as opposed to everyone else, but i really mean it.
Sometimes just being reminded that women dont all default to men being gross and terrible is such a spirit boost.
@@brycesumrall7248 There are still some good humans on the planet, don't despair! :) I hope the day is treating you well.
The insight this video gives in invaluable. I would love to see a discussion about gender roles from both people that identify as feminine and masculine and their experience growing up. I really think that the similarities and differences would help us to better understand each other. As a woman, I was also told I was "too sensitive," and I was often the butt of the joke in school. I was ostracized from not only girls my age but also boys. My family expected me to be a strong leader, but only when it came to taking care of others and doing things they wanted me to do to the point where I hated being feminine at all, but I didn't identify with being masculine either. The grey area is what I feel like crushes us whether you're one, the other, and sometimes both.
Dude, I literally cried when Shea expressed his upbringing and how he was soo upset when no one told him its okay to feel something. I was raving on my computer screaming WTF! and saying, "Somebody fucking say something" but then i realized these guy's were never taught either how to express or console someone. I also think there was a significant amount of anger that was not being brought up by the other guys, I wasn't even in the call and I felt the animosity and daggers these guy's threw at Shea when he would express his feelings and experiences.
I got that at the start but tbh towards the end I think they just didn't know how to respond to some of the things Shea would say
Im almost lucky that i never had friends until i was an adult.
The toxic masculinity thing only got me partially.
I'm a very honest person. I have found that when i talk to other men, and im OK with sharing my feelings, they suddenly become OK with it too.
I see a lot of guys always say "well men dont usually care to deal with emotions like women do."
I agree its not the same as women. But men are definitely able to share and work on their emotions, i guess maybe the strategy is just different.
Dudes are always afraid to be vulnerable, until i am openly vulnerable, and then the guy will match my level.
I never have to fear being verbally assaulted for it. Its never happened. Even if it did, i wouldnt care. Thats just me tho i have very thick skin lol.
Its funny, i hated men my whole life. Because i grew up being bullied and shit on, even as an adult i was being bullied. I was bullied in the military and even after i got out.
Ive been struggling for a long time to reconnect in some way with my bros out there in the world.
This video definitely helped. Even though i would be vukberable and a dude might open up to me. I always kept them at arms length. Cuz i dont want to be burdened with your problems.
Every dude i have opened up to has become clingy to me. Qnd no wonder. We all wish someone could understand us or at least listen withiut judgement. And be offered advice or something.
I hope to be closer to my bros in the future. Im working on it.
I do want to add, if it hasn’t been mentioned yet, that boys and young men are trained from a young age to absolutely bottle any kind of sensitivity through the exchange of truly hurtful quips masquerading as “just bustin chops.” Men will put each other down, fixating on obvious sore spots, and if the person being put down responds in any way other than a measured and equally hurtful retort, that person is quickly ridiculed. The result is that boys and young men are taught that it’s not okay to be hurt by hurtful things, that men steel (suppress) their emotions and, at best, hide behind a veneer of wit. I had a crash course in busting chops when I joined the Navy at 20, my parents did not tolerate hurtful words in any capacity. I truly regret the changes I went through, I still catch myself saying hurtful things to men I call my friends, just because it’s funny and for whatever reason I feel like they “need to be taken down a notch.” I do think that there is a good deal of hope for the future. When I watch my child and the others they interact with, hurtful words aren’t tolerated, and even called out.
@ Same here.
Yup as a sensitive guy never understood this. Never had the courage to call the truly hurtful words for what they were. Just hid behind my wit and developed insecurities on the inside. I always had a lingering feeling of, where are the boys that will support me for who I am, instead of playfully tear me apart?
That sounds so sadistic, what do you think is the intention behind it? Or is it just copying the behaviour of peers?
@@pandapanda246 It's a part of masculine culture that's pretty toxic. I think it stems from the notion that boys should be be tough and be able to shrug off words because they don't physically hurt you. I remember this exact thing in middle school growing up where it seemed like you couldn't fit in if you weren't able to roast your peers and for someone where that kind of thing doesn't come naturally it's really easy to not know where the line is of what's acceptable. I remember constant insults being thrown between the guys when I was lucky enough to get a seat at the lunch table and I remember getting fed up with being the butt of others jokes and not knowing how to fire back so one day I ended up putting a lot of thought into coming up with an insult that i thought was so strong that people would either be impressed or at least know I was willing to defend myself. It was something about their genes being poison and that the best thing they could do with their lives is never reproduce. When I said it no one laughed they were just like yikes too far man. I was embarrassed and confused because it seemed like there was no way to succeed in that kind of situation unless you were one of those kids who got it and were good at that kind of banter but at the same time if I didn't participate then I ate lunch alone which outside of just being lonely was fodder for further ridicule.
Sadly, 'giving each other shit', or ganging up and bullying 'gay'/weak/effeminate men (or other minorities) is the only form of bonding a lot of men experience.
Loved this one, would love a follow up with the same group in a few weeks
I have to say, I didn't really feel jealous of the more masculine guys, nor did I feel disadvantaged or lesser because of being more feminine. I was just angry that there are such stereotypes and developed a sense of pride (and even superiority) about not conforming to them.
Sounds like Dr K‘s description of Ego hiding insecurity.
@@synlion I know the superiority was in part a defense mechanism, though I don't really see any insecurities there.
@@synlion Yeah I agree.
I can relate to that comment, because in the past I was the same way.
Thinking like all those "athletic muscle chimps" are all stupid and have no personality etc.
But in the end, that's just a way for my own ego to build itself up when I see someone different from me succeeding in something I would have liked to be able to do.
And instead of doing something to become more like that.
I would double down on the opposite, I'm so much smarter and introspective and "cooler" in my way.
While there may be some truth to that I value certain features more than others, there was never any reason for me to look down on other people to realize that I have my own positives other people may not be as adept at.
I think that type of thought process comes from a place of resentment and jealousy, whether one is aware of it or not.
@@gaijinyade While I acknowledge your experience, I wasn't looking down on athletic people, I was looking down on people who'd ostracize others for not adhering to the gender stereotypes, for being so close-minded and unempathetic.
@@NoblesseOblige-17 Yeah, sounds like we have different experiences.
But I still think when you reduce others to make yourself feel better It's still your ego at play.
And of course It's not pleasant to admit that it could be due to insecurity in yourself but that is literally the only reason I could see as to why one would do that whole mental dance.
It's also not a very empathetic way of thinking on your end.
Since you do look down on others, even if you feel like they deserve it or not, that's just the thing isn't it.
I'm curious as to whether Shea would enjoy being a public speaker. Maybe speaking on his experiences to those who are younger and giving them a perspective from someone who grew up in that role. Love hearing him open up about his feeling robotic and feeling empty and having an identity crisis.
Keep up the group interviews or interviews with everyday normal people like us. Those are the most relatable!
As a girl, this is some eyeopening stuff… its also really making me think. Im reading the comments about how girls say they want guys to showing vulnerability but actually not going for those guys when it comes to it. And ive certainly done that in the past myself. It got me thinking, because after all, some of the most beautiful moments in past relationships were when the guy dared to show that he has a weak side too… But - there were times when it felt unwarranted. So i wanted to share a couple of those.
First there are the guys who just share way too much way too soon. Like on a second date i had this guy telling me about how his father abused him. It made me feel kinda uncomfortable to be honest.
Second, sometimes i also feel like guys share a lot with me because im a girl. Like even if we dont know each other that well, they are desperate to have someone - ANYONE - listen to them so they unload on me because they cant talk to their guy friends about it. A problem comes when it comes to things where im not the right person to help. Like when were dating and they have unresolved shit about their ex which they never told anyone else. Please dont torture me with that.
Third, sometimes there is a profound lack of reciprocity. Im thinking about a guy who on a first date complained about taking care of someone mentally ill and feeling really worn down by it. I told him that i went through a bad breakup recently and was in a kind of low spot myself, but we ended up talking exclusively about him for about 3 hours. To be honest, i felt like a therapist. I didnt feel connected, i felt used. He told me afterwards how great he thought i was and all i could think was “is it always going to be only about you?”
I guess the point im trying to make is that being vulnerable is not the problem, but there are other cues im picking up on. Is he always going to dump all of his stuff only on me? Does he like me or is he just desperate for someone who will listen? Its not really “he showed feelings, eww” :)
You hit the nail on the head with this comment. I certainly want the men in my life to know that it's okay to talk to me about shit, and I dont judge or belittle them. However, it does make it hard to date those same guys because the baggage they dump shows sides of them that make them not compatible to date.
For an example, I slept with a guy, hookup style not relationship, and during the cuddle session afterwards I was stroking the back of his head and he proceed to tell me all about how he doesnt normally let people touch his head or neck because of some trauma with his dad. And he talked for hours about his childhood, abusive dad, his drug problems, friends dying,and sooo much more. Kind of like how shea and ed said, when the faucet is on it's hard to turn it off when you're in the moment.
I still talk to this guy and make a point to be his Luke and listen, and I'll never tell him to stop expressing himself because I'm afraid if I tell him it's too much he might close up again and I can see he really needed someone to just hear him. The issue is that now I cant see myself dating him for real even though he kinda hints at it because i cant handle being his therapist every night. Like for about 2 months I slept over because he didn't want to be alone, wanted to talk because I was good listener and validated his feelings, and made him feel comforted which he hadn't felt almost ever. He is just 1 example of scenarios I've had with men who dump too much too soon and it kills relationship stuff because you become a shoulder instead of a person. It also doesnt help that I have the kind of personality that makes strangers dump their issues onto me because I come off as someone easy to talk to. (And i am).
I do want men to open up. I want them to be emotional. I want them to have that opportunity to vent because maybe , like shea, no one ever asked them how they feel. That's why I'll never tell a man that he's being too much or I cant handle his emotions or anything like that because to me it feels like a small sacrifice of my time to help someone overcome trauma. BUT... when I see men in the comments saying "women dont actually want emotional men" and "notice how the men who open up the her are all her FRIENDS. Not boyfriends", I think they may not realize that pretty often, men opening up happens like the guy above, and it makes moving forward in a romantic relationship harder. Just a thought.
@@collegiatefinesse
Its simple.
Never has it done any good for men to change based on what women say they want.
Men who only listen to women and change themselves based on that get skipped for the alpha.
Women contradict themselves all the time and don't know what they want.
When you look at biology its quite simple.
You need to be able to lead, be more logical, be like a rock for your family to fall back on etc.
A woman can say she wants you to open up and be able to be emotional etc but that goes against your nature to some extend.
Now of course we are still humans and we all have emotions, however often there is no point in sharing those emotions with your woman or in front of your kids as you are their leader.
Imagine being in a war and your commander is getting all emotional and panicking. As a soldier you"ll lose respect for him.
Now he still human and can surely pick his place to let go of his frustrations and share his emotions.. just not in front of his men.
I guess it comes down to being truly masculine, being real and staying logical even when it comes to being emotional.
That means you can choose when & with whom its a good time to share your problems etc
@@collegiatefinesse you are basically where the idea that men should never show emotion ever come from. men have two options, be human or be successful.
most are going to choose the second
@@pathlastname9278 Men or women, *nobody* wants a laundry list of emotional baggage dumped on them. It’s a fact of life. Nobody wants to be your therapist, and sometimes people who aren’t used to being listened to become over eager to share and forget that.
@@collegiatefinesse I’m sure you mean well, but you’re entering dangerous territory here. If there’s truly no chance of you wishing to be in a relationship with this guy, maybe you shouldn’t be stroking his neck or encouraging him to express himself. How would *you* feel if someone led you on like that after being the first person he could open up to? I’ve learned this the *hard* way, sometimes a bit of detachment between friends is a good thing.
Hey Dr. K, can you do a lecture on how to process and deal with a loved one dying? My sister found her boyfriend dead a few days ago and the whole family is having trouble processing.
He talked some on this topic in the video "On Grief, Loss, & Suicide | Dr. K explains"
He did one when Reckful passed away,check what Marklar said.
I'm so sorry for your loss. Words can never describe that feeling void of content. I hope you and your family find a healthy way of dealing with it.
My grandfather passed away a year ago and my family as still reeling from that trauma (alongside a few of his siblings for seperate reasons).
So everyone processes it differently, and I hope you find your way of reflecting on that pain and making light of a situation too grim for words. :) All the best.
As much as I appreciate you looking out for your sister, I'm assuming you're looking for words to tell her and how to help her, but she is too close to you for you to provide council, what you can do is be there for her as a brother, be nice to her, sleep over if she cant handle things for a while, listen to her etc, but if she needs professional help the best you can do is push her (not too much of course) to seek a therapist.
Josh, as much as I'm sorry for the loss, I feel the need to address that processing the loss of a loved one does not have a quick fix. Especially if the loss happened a few days ago (a month, maybe two later as I'm responding). There is no perfect way. There is no manual. As much as I appreciate you asking for help to support your sister, she and the family have to deal with it in their own way, with several outcomes. That is normal, that is life. The older you get, the more you will be able to accept the struggles in life.
You say they are having trouble processing. Think for a moment, THEY ARE PROCESSING. I hope for the love of God (atheist, personally), you don't push them in any way. It is their walk of life, just support them, hear them out if they open up. You might perceive them having troubles processing, but they are processing the loss in their way. Not everyone thinks or feels like you. You have to give them the time and space.
Most of all. I cannot stress this enough: NO HUMAN BEING CAN PROCESS THE LOSS OF A LOVED ONE IN A FEW DAYS. If so, they never loved.
Having a strong bond with another human being requires vunerability amd trust. Developmental psychology should be mandatory for all "civilized" people. All the confusion about who we are, what we want and what we want to be can be can be demystified by understanding basic attachment theories.
.
THIS.
Say you choose to feel the surface emotions without hitting depth as a way of adapting, adopting the mindset, manifesting into some sort of subconscious or conscious manner. Where would you go from there?
It's not a good identification of the intended pathology, "toxic masculinity" implies the issue to be endemic somehow to masculinity, the reality is that "toxic masculinity" has nothing to do with masculinity and actually everything to do with the alienation of femininity. So what you are identifying as humanity is in fact the feminine, to experience being human fully one requires a connection to both sides of the human coin: the solution to these issues is not to redefine masculinity in anyway, but rather to understand and accept femininity.
> Developmental psychology should be mandatory for all "civilized" people
That's a poor choice of words. Native Americans were called uncivilized for having tribes. "civilized" is not a word anybody should use in real life.
It takes a lot of bravery and courage to be in this panel. Much respect.
Just commenting some hearts for all the sensitive souls out there ❤️💓❤️💚💕💚💞💙💞💜🖤😍
Lots of love for you all~
ty i needed that i just cried today in social isolation :D, i will accept it as if its in my own context :D
@@fukkyouthatswhy Hope you’re doing well these days!
I think it’s interesting that the term toxic masculinity is used often but I haven‘t heard as much about toxic femininity, which I do believe exists as well. I would define it as harmful expectations for how women should behave. I remember growing up thinking that as a woman I should be more passive, especially in relationships with men, and that it is unattractive to be forward, active or dominant. I tried very hard for a while during my teenage years to be pretty, cute and likeable and it was really not helpful for my development at all. I had to learn later to speak my mind and have the confidence to make my own decisions and draw boundaries.
I'm 2 years late but it's truly refreshing to see men tackle that kind of subject on youtube. And brave. And sexy. y'all rock.
I'm only half an hour in and i've only seen (part of) one other group talk on this channel. The other one with women. And i realize part of the awkwardness in this is some bad internet connections but it's faszinating to see how much easier the women got into the group talk thing. I'm sure there are other factors like the actual personalities of the people involved not just gender or the socialisation skills society expects and teaches kids of a specific gender but i feel it's at least part of it.
I'm 50 min in and this is absolutely fascinating. Dr. K is teaching grown men how to be emotionally supportive of each other. Ed said at one point, if you asked women, they'd know what to say (~45 min). Me, as a woman, is slightly alarmed that there are crickets at something that is so fundamental, necessary, and intuitive to me. Literally, showing the results of toxic masculinity. Even the guys who turned away from it. I wish that they all can grow to experience the wonderful world of being fully in your emotions, and feeling connected to people emotionally.
I remember watching The Mask You Live In, with a group of men in the company I worked (was men's day and stuff), realizing that they were talking about "man should open up more" and the benefits of while I was almost crying, but my thoughts were "you should not cry, you should not show weakness", even tho the documentary is especially about that I could not do that not in front of other people, other men... It's just sad to think about it. Nowadays I work with my sociologist to try to break this barrier and understand better my feelings, that's something I suppress my entire life.
I actually felt alone with these issues... It's nice to see that I'm not
When I hang out with friends it eventually gets to the "Real Talk", we get into deep and vulnerable conversations
A lot of people don't even have those kinds of friends. It's very rare for me, I wish I could have it more often. Most of the time conversations focus on the issue at hand.
@@hgzmatt I'll admit I am very lucky to have friends that I am able to talk with like that. I takes me a while to open up and feel close with people so the friends I do have I treasure. I feel for you, I hope that you are able to open up and talk comfortably when you need it and lend an ear in return.
@@1chenann I'm really happy for you. It took me a while to recover from the stuff I went through in my teens and I just need to stop moving around so much so I can build a social circle. I think I was running from it and it killed all friendships.
@@hgzmatt thanks, i hope you are okay despite circumstances and that you find the friendships you are looking for. I know online is not really the same but if you need someone to talk to you can reach out to me on discord :)
@@1chenann I really appreciate it, Annie. I do wish you lived around here somewhere and we could go for a walk or something. I don't really enjoy talking over the internet and I'm a little too cynical to just go for it. I am fine though, I moved back in with my parents while the pandemic is happening. I'm working from home and there are no serious issues other than longing for more social interactions.
I'm glad I found this. I need to be more mindful of my judgments towards people with feelings that I do not understand.
I think the part that resonated with me the most was the silence. It is like the nail commercial. The nail is so obviously the problem, but the solution is not removing the nail but rather talking to the person and dealing with the problems that the person is facing...the nail is actually a symptom.
I am so happy that I found this chanel. Im autistic (I think...I guess) and male and dealing with emotions is such an uphill battle.
Only a quarter of the way in but this has been one of the most insightful humbling podcast episodes I’ve ever watched. It hurts to see guys so lost and I relate completely, and we can only really progress by going through these deeply uncomfortable conversations.
This is supposed to be about toxic masculinity but I'm a girl and I relate to most of this to. I don't know how to connect and I'm isolated the biggest thing I want is to be heard to been seen by my friends and strengthen those connections.
45:08 When they didn't know how to react to Shae, and Ed nails it. It went from "Oh we're so different" ... to "Well will you look at that! We're all in the same boat!" XD ... is when I clicked the like button :P
The longer I watched this the more heartbroken I felt. Cuz like as a woman I struggle with same things, feeling lost and not sure where I start and where social expectations end, feeling isolated and unable to open up, desparate for connection, feeling scared that the worst part of you could win over you. Though I experience it from another perspective, these are the same issues non the less. I always felt so distant from men but maybe we're not so different after all.
These group discussions are my favourite
I relate to Shea a lot. Even in this interview he's all alone up there. Wish I could've joined the call and let you know you don't have to deal with this alone, and there are others like you, Shea.
Me too. In more ways than 1
It's so strange because I'm the shy guy introvert type. But I love sports and was pretty attletic . I can relate to him when he said he used exercise to escape the world. I do that too and it's a good way to think who you are and relieve stress.
Also I was the nice guy and still never got bullied during games or training or anything physical. Never saw a masculine guy be constantly toxic either. Either you call them out or just neglect them as morons and move on. No need to waste time on them. Also one thing that dominates in sports is skill and competence. You could be skinny but if you can score 3 pointers like mad dude your in the bro zone of cool or if you can run fast or have something that dominates.
Same here
@@beastmasterbg Were you in team sports?
@@AndreasDevig high school team, but also local team in my city in soccer. Also did gymnastics,swimming when i was a kid.
This was extraordinary for me to listen to. I'm a 69-year-old cis-woman, so I'm on the opposite end of life and probably gender from these five young men. I say I'm *probably* on the opposite end of gender, because it may be that one or two of them are trans or non-binary or genderfluid.
I'm a woman, as I said, and I was brought up in the 1950s/60s in a radical left-wing household, so it was a relatively feminist environment in a non-feminist society. However, my father was a strong, dominant, workaholic personality with a goodly number of traits we consider masculine. I adored him and was pretty disconnected from my mother, so I bought into the masculine values as what I *should* be and what I *wanted* to be, and yet I was bad at being a Man. At times I succeeded, perhaps, in looking like I had the masculine virtues, but I was hurting badly. I'm myself not trans, but I could perhaps be called genderqueer. I think my emotional/intellectual life is closer to that of 2020s men than 2020s women, though perhaps this isn't a very useful generalization.
This video was a revelation to me in that it showed me how harmful the masculine values can be to men too, and that I wasn't bad at them so much because I was female but because the masculine assumptions and values are in large part inherently harmful. They're great for "getting things done", but not so great in other ways.
I listened several times to Dr. K.'s speech that starts at 1:36:50 and ended up transcribing it, because it describes pretty well all the ways in which I "should" myself.
If there is still a possibility for group coaching, I would be very interested in it -- preferably, I think, in a mixed-gender group.
What I don't like about the term toxic masculinity is that it's used to ideologically simplify the understanding of history and undermine the suffering of men. The reasoning seem to be something like "when women suffer, it's because of men. When men suffer, it's because of men".
The idea of "a man" is far more of a destructivr entity than any man or woman can be by themselves,and i hate how toxic masculinity has become a virtue signaling tool in public spaces, as you said,history gets brushed aside,so do any ideas for alternatives or a way forward. "He's toxic" and thats usually how the discourse ends.
It's almost like for hundreds and hundreds of years women's only responsibility was to make babies and take care of the house. They didn't set up society, so if you don't like society, social norms, it's hard to blame that on women.
@@sburkie9 Yeah, all those damn male Queens ruining society.
@@sburkie9 A lot of male rulers who were terrible people were encouraged by their female lovers, so women definitely share the blame. Read Macbeth sometime.
@@sburkie9 imagine being so reductionist, lol. You just want to blame everything on men, probably out of some resentment, and you try to justify it by parroting bogus feminazi talking points.
"Only men set up society" my dear God, lmao. The very fact that women "took care of the house" is disproving your point. The one who raises children has an enormous influence on society. It's a reocurring theme in many traditionalist societies that men are kinda afraid of their wives. I wonder why.
At the 1:15:00ish mark when Ed started opening up about his friend Luke, that solidified a different line of thinking for me. I've been empathizing with the guys a lot throughout this but this section is making me view some thoughts about myself in a better light.
I am very much a Luke. I call myself an Empathy Monster a lot of the time in my head and throughout the years I've been this person for strangers at times and for some of my closest friends. This takes a negative turn at times because I realize that as I've been this person to some, it's almost pushed away others completely. I also see how it at times pushes those I've gotten this connection with as well because I can't stop being who I am. For a long time I've considered it my fault. I push too hard, I rip the surface away for people too quickly, I've felt like it's been my fault these people don't want to talk to me. To some extent it's true, I'm not necessarily respecting people's boundaries but moreso lately and through this discussion, I'm starting to see it as more positive than negative. Like a 60% glass half full rather than 40% full. I'm truly solidifying that, this is me, I'm someone who wants to see everyone open up and I want to be a reason for people to be open on a more consistent basis. I've been wrestling with the thought of dropping some of these unreciprocated toxic relationships for years but now I feel I have the confidence to do so. I know there are people who will benefit from me being me, and I know that they'll appreciate me enough to return the favor consistently.
I resonate a lot with your perspective. I think I've been on both sides and I still am closed off sometimes depending on who it is. I like to talk about deep stuff quickly and it can be overwhelming but there are also people who I can't deal with. If I don't trust you or if it's a group setting I don't feel comfortable. My family doesn't have a clue about all this and I always felt my mother doesn't care to hear anything substantial, it is surface level only and that stunted me growing up. Not having any emotional support. I really tried opening up to my last girlfriend but I increasingly felt like she was unable to empathize with me. She was stuck in her own head and her problems always came first.
Been watching a few of your videos Dr K, and I think the algorithm got something right for once.
Thank you and well done to these young men for being so open, brave and accepting of one another during this conversation.
You are all examples of how positive masculinity can be, through these conversations, through care for your brothers, and I'm so proud of the incredible emotional work you put into this conversation, and the example you have set for...172,579 viewers at the time of this comment.
You deserve to feel security, comfort and support in whatever masculinity means to you.
Thank you for this emotional bravery, and honesty and everything you have shared with us here.
After watching the all female panel video discussing boundaries yesterday and now watching these men discuss their experiences with masculinity, it's amazing how stark the differences are in their conversations.
Maybe this was an all male panel of introverts and that was an all female panel of extroverts, but I can't describe what I was seeing today.
Hesitation to share emotions or experience? Severely stunted emotional intelligence? The all female panel had deep and detailed things to say where with this panel it was like pulling teeth.
Man I hope Gen Z and this new generation are given more tools to become fuller, more emotionally intelligent people than past generations. I hope TikTok and Twitch become tools to share advice... if the algorithms don't feed us more of the things that give us rage, sadness, and confirm our biases out of the sake of likes/retweets/commening/engagement to sell ads.
I would love to see an episode with Shea and Dr. K. I feel like he's very good at articulating his feelings.
Me too! He seems really interesting.
This kind of self understanding and willingness to be vulnerable and sincere is the type of thing I really value, but I also really value in my boyfriend.
I love Dr.K dude
1:19:00 'a little problem can remain a little problem because you can talk about it easily' -- that's such good advice. just start talking about your emotions
I only listened to this, I had no idea what any of these men looked like and it still put me to tears to hear this beautiful conversation