Thanks for all your videos and explanation Jeff, they are really appreciated. Please do not mind offensive and inappropriate comments like those of PudgyK for example, who hate everything and everyone and most probably, hate himself too (from what I have read on his other posts anyway, quite pathetic to say the least). There are a lot of 'though guys' out there hiding behind a keyboard, thinking they can say what they want without consequences. Anyway, enough time wasted on this low life dude and thanks again from the rest of us. Keep up the great and very informative work. I was able to rebuild my son's KTM 150SX forks from watching your videos in total confidence, and they're working great!
Its also beneficial to give the bore a good scrub with scolding hot water and detergent to get all the non oil based grit and crud off the surface of the bore (which is most probably what came off on the rag), dry it off then give it the WD40 treatment.. No Engine block, Crank or Con Rods used to leave the engine shop I worked at without this :-)
I didn't know this. I did mmi in 91-92. Nicosil wasn't used then. On our aircraft cylinders with this coating we did use ball hones to get a slight roughing up. A quick cross hatch then ultrasonic clean. Fit pistons and set end gap. And off we went. These cylinders would go 800 to 1200 hours then need rings and valve work but as a rule and as long as they weren't overheated the nicosil would be good but as a rule we chromed our cylinders being overhauled. Last as long and cheaper. Nicosil was factory and chrome was sometimes done at top overhaul. I've been away 10 years so I don't know what they do now. Thank you. Great information.
Thank you for the info. I am working on a 2000 Jaguar Vanden Plas with a Nikasil engine, and I am glad I found this video. I read on some sites that say the samething and a few use honing. One tip was the Scatch-Brite with warm mild soapy water to deglaze the cylinder bores. Either way, I'm still learning as I research
Spot on. Very interesting how the process works. The nickel is only used to get the SiC (silicon carbide) onto the cylinder wall by electroplating. Most of the nickel is wiped away by honing leaving the layer of exposed SiC, which is a ceramic.
How many times I gotta tell ya?! Do NOT hone a nikasil coated cylinder! Lol Great vid. Such a shame every day on the internet someone says "hone your cylinder before you install the new piston."
Your videos have inspired me to know they are my go to source for high level experienced advice for maintaining my 2019 500EXC-F and the 2022 300XCW I will be picking up in a few weeks. Im building the 300 with a small amount of bling , but most importantly adding all the practical aftermarket protection plus the Mule idle screw by removing the locked set screw with BOB SMITHS UNCURE as you recently pointed out in your video update. I just placed my first parts order with Slavens last week . I am 66 , an active self employed 35 yr. ARBORIST and yes many tell me I'm crazy to buy a 300 Enduro to ride single track in the mountains of PA.! I just enjoy the challenge ( with in my abilities) to ride wher few will ever! Now I always in this life take things to the next level and the people at POWER SPORTS in Downingtown where im buying the bike tell me im over the top. Well to get to the mountains I'm 15 minutes away and must ride on state roads so Mike at TACOMOTO is helping to assist me with the needed Enduro lights and wire harness to build a street legal bike.
@Slavens Racing I'm working on a arctic cat 800 twin 2 stroke. I can still see crosshatching but there just alittle glazed, so would you recommend just using a scotch bright pad to deglaze?
I've always honed mine if the crosshatch was barely visible, just a 5 sec run up/down. Knocks down any bad spots also. Maybe I'm lucky but I'm just sending my original cylinder out to be replated after 12 years
Acid can be used to remove aluminium smearing from seizures. Dab it on the melted aluminium with a q tip but keep it away from any bare aluminium anywhere else, the Nikasil will not react with the aid but the aluminium will fizz up and wipe off
Thank you for the grat explanation. I do how ever have one quistion: One of the reasons why you would hone a cylinder is to make the oil stick better on the walls. Would that not be a problem for high PRM race cylinders if not honed?
I'd like to see you add something just for a test. Wash the cylinder with dish soap and water and a good brush instead of the solvents, dry it, then wipe with the WD40 just to see if you get more or less dirt coming up. I think less. The solvents carry fine particles into the porous surface, those particles are picked up by the WD40 and rag, to varying degrees.
so are you saying you leave the vertical glazing lines alone? Or should I use the sandpaper and try to get rid of them? You said you don't like to do that so I'm not really sure now. Thank you for the video by the way
I'm really no expert but once years ago I rebuilt a 500cc motor and had the cylinder bored out. The machine shop fellow told me the only way to really get all the grit 100% off the engine parts before assembly was with dish soap and water. Any kind of solvents like petrol, thinners or diesel don't really work. I guess its the degreasing nature of the dish soap that allows the grit to be flushed away in the water. What are your thoughts on this?
i bought a 91 kx 250 cylinder and head for my 87 kx 250 it was already sleeved it is ready to put together next week. sleeving vs. plated. i never had a sleeved cylinder in 35 years. ill let you know.
currently waiting for two LA sleaves, so I can repair damage caused by relying on a thin plating of nikasil, backed up by soft alluminum. They (motor co.)can say whatever they like, bottom line is that it's cheaper to produce, and engineered to fail! Then they can sell you some replacement parts, or a new machine. I am sick of nikasil crap, failing me in one way or another. Super glad LA Sleave has stepped up, and made a superior product for so many applications. No disrespect to you sir, I simply disagree with your assessment of that particular aspect.
I appreciate your comments BUT I totally disagree. Nikasil is far superior to soft cast iron sleeves that have poor heat transfer, add weight to the engine and poor port alignment that de-tunes the engine. It does not fail prematurely unless you ingest dirt. With proper care it will easily outlast a sleeve. KTM, Porsche, Mercedes, Maserati, BMW, Lamborghini, Bentley and many others use it because it works.
so im torn about honing my cylinder. I have 2017 KTM sxf250 with 66 hours. blew the crank and the cylinder looks great but i don't want to take any chances. When i purchased my vertex piston, the instructions tell me to hone the cylinder and I also see this in other instruction. You say not to and I take your word very seriously as i've been following you for a very long time and trust your word. Do you still think honing is more damaging then productive? I have the spring loaded flex hone.
A spring loaded flex hone will remove Nikasil coating and increase piston to cylinder clearance. Same effect as adding a hundred hours of wear. What do you think you are going to accomplish by wearing out your cylinder with a hone and filling the pores of the Nikasil with grit?
@@slaverace1 well when you say it like that. I honestly don't understand why it tells me to hone. Ill just clean it up and put the new piston in. Thx for the advice.
@@205gtipunk i also am a diesel fitter and motorcycle enthusiast, and I totally agree, if an engine in break in is babied the rings won't bed properly and the engine may use more oil than desired. th-cam.com/video/xpoglovyy_8/w-d-xo.html
thanks for reveaLing the secret to why my ktm 3oo xc has more compression than any other well known two stroke ,. and it seems to be much more durabLe as well,. getiing ready for few more upgrades such as ceramic piston side skirt coating and top coating to resist more heat and impact and maybe at some point adding two eLectic motors to create the most perfect hybrid two stroke experience____🎄
I have rebuild many 2 and 4 stroke bikes every cylinder bore was measured by bore gauge and every single cylinder was oval by approx. 0.01 - 0.03 mm. So I honed with diamond hone stones every single cylinder to become new crosshatch without any problem in over 15 years not even 1 cylinder was damaged somewhere honed more times. So I don’t understand how you could say you will ruin the bore. My opinion is when the cross hatch is back and the bore is not oval the rings will seal perfect and the sizing of piston will be constant.
The clearances are intended to be relatively tight on Nikasil cylinders and each time you hone you not only remove too much material but also fill the pores with grit that is not easily cleaned. ALL 2 stroke cylinders are out-of-round after just a short time of running because the port holes make an unstable surface. There is nothing to be gained (and much to lose) by honing a 2 stroke Nikasil cylinder.
so glad I watched this, as the previous video I watched had a bloke using a ball hone, and the next guy was honing it (badly). I guess I'll leave mine the **** alone
Hey Jeff. I have a KTM 450 cylinder torn down. The hash marks are worn smooth, and my next step was going to be to hone it before putting new rings on. I’m glad I saw your video. The cylinder is fine, I had a head problem that led me to tear it down. The cylinder walls are shiny, and no scuffs at all. I’m just worried they aren’t holding enough oil, or giving the rings an opportunity to seat since the hash marks from the original hone are gone. Leave it alone?
Hello No cross-hatch is not an issue. In the past with cast iron sleeves the rings wore in (seated) to the cylinder but that is no longer the case with Nikasil coated cylinders. The Nikasil is so hard it wears-in (seats) the rings very quickly and the Nikasil is very porous and retains oil. Leave it alone and ride it hard. There is basically nothing to break-in. I do recommend not using full synthetic oil for the first 100 miles. Probably won't cause a problem but some synthetics are super slick and that can be problematic. slavensracing.com/shop/maxum-4-break-in-oil-by-maxima-racing-oils/
Rebuilding a twin cylinder snowmobile. If the cylinders are damaged i will have them replated. I will clean them like you suggest before install. Do you use any sort of assembly lube on the rings? Or just dry rings to dry cylinder
I have a 2000 rm125 and a 2005 rm85 I am doing top ends on. They both ran fine, but the 125 had LOW compression. Cylinders and pistons look great. Do I just install new piston/ring after cleaning cylinder? No deglazing, right?
the coating comes from the factory honed or are you just saying don't hone it again if replacing rings,piston etc.if it looks fine, What if it looks glazed??
What about Yamaha aluminum cylinders? Also would it be OK to just measure the top and bottom of the cylinder if I can't find an indicator dial to fit in there for the middle measurement? Gotta get the size for new rings
Yeah im just a bit confused as you said dont use one of those traditional honing devices as it damages nikasil, but they would do it evenly, where as using a low grade sandpaper just rubbing surely would leave it uneven and still damage the nicasil? ill do a video when i do it
Cylinder/piston clearances are not so small. 0.05mm is pretty big gap. If you can hone 0.01mm of nikasil coating, you definitely doing something else, but not honing. Hone leaves scratches 1 micron(0.001mm) deep, which is way smaller than thickness of the coating.
@@idecidenotyou my point is it is fine to hone nickasil. In any case people call “hone” not what machinists mean hone. People basically do deglazing. Recently I took flakes of nikasil from cylinder and measured thickness, they were 0.07-0.1mm. You can’t remove nickasil by honing and also many companies who do coating deglaze it using stones during refurbishment. I didn’t see any manual yet prohibiting hone.
Hey I got a 2004 RM85 cylinder seems to be stock. Cylinder has small burr on the exhaust bridge but to the top of it, but not past the exhaust Bridge. Piston blew up and debris from the piston caused the crank lock. Pulled it all down crank is fine just a little issue with the small burr in the cylinder, everything else looks great in the cylinder. Don't really want to hone it. And don't want my next piston ring to get stuck on that small bur. What shoud i do ? Thanks
Is this your recommendation for all Nikasil cylinders no matter the brand? My polaris service manual specifically states to use a stone type hone and both cylinders are in fact Nikasil coated..
Yes. The piston to cylinder clearance is tight and using any type of hone will increase the clearance and turn it into a worn out spec. Also, unless you have a high tech hot tank to clean it, the pores of the Nikasil will retain the hone grit and release it over time and that will lead to premature wear. There is nothing to be gained by honing, the rings will seat just fine.
Disregard my comment, just paranoid since I've only ever rebuilt bikes that have been sleeved. 20 hours already and the bikes been running mint! Appreciate this video muchly.
What if there's a small nick or scratch, can I repair it myself or can I get by with a small nick in the cylinder? I've read that honing doesn't really hurt the walls, it just preps the cylinder.
I have a 200 mxc 2001 and the motor locked up the cylinder has 2 slight scores would you recommend having it sent to powerseal USA they nikasil the cylinder and bore it ? I know KTMs are super finicky what do you think I should do Jeff I don’t wanna buy a 900 dollar cylinder
Great video Jeff, i just bought a 125cc ktm, and it needs a new piston. I have not taken the cylinder off, yet becauce the i think the head nuts are fastend by locktite and I need to borrow some kind of heat tool. I took the exchaust off and I could see that the rings where very word and there where scratches aswell as carbon on the piston. I am not shoure is the cylinder is ok, do you think I should by a piston size bigger than the one I have now or does it depend? Thanks
+Jeff Slavens just a quick question I have a niskali cylinder and was wondering if I should scothbrite all of it till I see the old crosshatching if so what kind of action should I use?
So I have a nikasil cylinder with little cross hatching was supposedly recently related by previous owner. measures out to good/new spec. you wouldn't worry about lack of cross hatching? I see some saying the walls won't retain enough oil along with the "won't seal right"
the rings are so good nowadays that they will eventually seat. But that is 100% correct, an insufficient cross hatch won't retain enough oil to keep the piston skirts skating on a film of oil. fact.
Hi Jeff - just wondering since this was from 9 years ago and chnages in tech , do you still reccomend no hone? not even a light ball hone like RMATV seem to reccomend in their ktm 300 top end rebuild. - thanks
Hello Jeff, Couple years ago I have to change my Exhaust flange after a bad impact in a rocky climb, that suck's because this part is originally bored together with the cylinder and it need adjustment when replace it. You have any procedure or recommendation for that? I have keep my old flange to have it repair but part is cheap and I have buy a new one not knowing the coming issue. I adjust it with care by sanding the cover so the Power Valve can play freely.
I have recently purchased an Aprilia rs 250 with 12, 000 miles on the clock. Iam told the barrels are nikasil coated from new. Does the mileage indicate that the nickasil will now be past its best.
Just measured and installed a C size piston and rings on my 250 exc and there wasn't really any of the original crosshatch left, the cylinder was basically flat smooth. Followed your instructions and didn't touch the cylinder except clean it up. Bike is running well.
That's all I did for the 660 top end. Scotch bright pad and carb cleaner and wd 40. I searched to make sure to get the right grade scotch bright. I read the colors denote the strength but found that actually isn't completely true and just read what strength it actually says.
Hello: Please describe what you call "glazed over" because I have yet to see it on any Nikasil plated cylinder. Two strokes sometimes get some oil/carbon residue that you can clean off with a Scotchbrite pad.
ive pulled 3 cylinders off my yamaha 2000 gp1200r jetski. they come nikasil plated but idk if anyone has worked on them or not. how would i tell if the nikasil is still there or if they have been sleeved
Do nikasil cylinders require synthetic two-stroke oil and whether the engines without nikasil we must be careful that we pour oil, mineral or synthetic, or it does not matter which oil is poured. I mean trimmers and chainsaws? Thanks
@@slaverace1 Hehe ,, I'll try again ,,, I heard that old engines without nicasil should not use synthetic oil but mineral oil. Do you know anything about that
The cylinders are lightly scuffed and local builder says they could clean up perfect with a diamond hone. They are an engine specialty shop so would it be good to have them diamond honed? They take new cylinders and rings and take all measurements and use factory specs to get back to spec.
Wiseco piston recommends using a brush hone,which is different than a ball hone ( very few passes and with cutting oil) to restore the factory cross hatch. Only place I could find one was rocky mountain ATV. I am not saying this is right or wrong. Just what I did because I wanted to reuse an old jug.
Just tearing down my '13 KTM 250 XC-W for the first time after 135 hours. The portions of the cylinder where the piston doesn't travel show the nice factory cross hatch etching finish but the rest of the bore looks pretty smooth. Is this normal and am I ok to go with the cylinder as is?
Hey Jeff. I probably don't understand everything what is presented in this video. Could you please summarize which tool do you recommend and which reborn? I can buy a cheap stone instrument for honing but I don't know if I can use it for nicasil cleaning before instal new piston. Best regards!
JEFF I HAD A COLD SEIZURE SOME OF THE PISTON IS ON THE EXHAUST SIDE OF THE CYLINDER THE METAL IS GROUND IN BUT NOT DEEP SHOULD I BALL HONE FOR 20 SECS TO TRY AND SALVAGE IT? ITS A BRAND NEW YZ 125 CYLINDER AND I DONT FEEL LIKE BUYING ANOTHER.
No ball hones or any other hones. To try and salvage it, go to the hardware store and buy some muriatic acid. Pour a little in to the cap from the jug. Then dip a Q tip (ear swab) in to the acid, then put the acid on the area where the piston transferred aluminum. It will bubble and make a mess. Keep applying until there is no more bubbling which indicates the aluminum is gone. Then rinse with water and dry with compressed air. At that stage you can sand that area with 220 grit emery cloth in an X pattern. Clean and install.
The term "cold seizure" has always bothered me because it's not correct. What really happens is the jetting is too lean then the cold temps make it leaner and cause the engine to seize. Richen it before riding it. No, not a bigger main. It's almost always too lean on the pilot and needle.
At home my dad has a special honing thing he uses when he hones two stroke nikasils, but I've only seen him do it twice. Once on a friends moped cylinder and one time on my snowmobile(the pistons melted)
we found out that cooland fluid were escaping into the crank-case from between the block-halves, so that could brobably haver something to do with it...
YOUS SUCK bying the chemicals to do it + the time to actually do it, it would be cheaper just to buy a new cylinder, and it had to be up and running the next day
Jeff Slavens , pero las herramientas que utilizas que salen en la mesa que se adaptan al taladro como se llaman , una se que se llama bruñidor de cilindros y la otra que es como una esponja de lunares como se llama y para que sirve ?
American BMW HP4 teams have been using Aluminum Oxide Hones and have been able to hone correctly with no differential difference in the bore. even under a microscope, it showed its validity without removing the Nikalsil Coating. Now without getting into extreme details.... are you trying to protect the backyard mechanics from over honing and killing their Nikasil or are you not informed of this method?
Several issues; the average backyard mechanic struggles to do basic maintenance correctly and I try to keep things simple to keep them from digging a hole. Telling what factory backed teams do or don't do has little or nothing to do with what the average Joe might attempt. 4 strokes (BMW) are much easier to correctly hone than a 2 stroke cylinder full of large holes. There is little to gain by honing Nikasil and a lot to lose if done incorrectly. I'll stay tuned for your video.
Jeff, 2006 250xcw. There's a chip in the nikisil above the top ring stroke, about 1/8" long, along the very top of the cylinder edge on the intake side. Is this detrimental? Or can I safely run this? Ty for any info.
The new barrel came with a nasty twisting score to to bottom! After listening to this it is obvious they SENT ME A REJECT cylinder, to the sucker in N.A....
Jeff Slavens I Thank God for this video... I was told by several people to hone, Rocky Mountain Atv/Mc has a video on how to, mentions nothing of the finish you taught me about, I bought my 15yr old a 2014 150sx, just started the top end, Thank you for sharing your knowledge, I feel super confident everything will go smoothly. Great teacher and tutorials..
Don't have your cylinder replated by powerseal usa, I did and it didn't last but 25 hours. The plating cracked and seized the top end. Have it sleeved and forget the headache.
Ryan Seigworth Fuck no sleeve a cylinder. Especially 125cc cylinders. Have rebuild 3 125cc engines that seized becouse of sleeving. They cant expand properly when they get really hot. 250cc forward i have no experience. But just dont... Honestly...
I have some marks on my cylinder from not letting my ktm 2t warm up enough, is honing like this a good idea or could i risk making my cylinder un-even?
+HondaYamaha Greece I will believe everything must , about 45 minutes of easy driving on a new cylinder , but after switching piston warm up the engine cool down so it is ready said them to me on the dirt bike store. but this is for racing
I used to remove honing debris in cylinders in the sink with hot soapy water and a dish brush. Oil can had to be right there ready to squirt in because the clean, exposed iron liner oxidizes instantly.
Hey jeff, i have an 07 Kawasaki 250 2 stroke and the cylinder has a nikasil coating , i was wondering since the bike is getting pretty old do you think it will need to be re coated (i do top ends frequently) or should i just leave it ?The engine has probably had 5 top end rebuilds since new ,i don't want to be losing compression if i don't have to. i also run 40;1 Any help would be appreciated
Thanks for all your videos and explanation Jeff, they are really appreciated. Please do not mind offensive and inappropriate comments like those of PudgyK for example, who hate everything and everyone and most probably, hate himself too (from what I have read on his other posts anyway, quite pathetic to say the least).
There are a lot of 'though guys' out there hiding behind a keyboard, thinking they can say what they want without consequences. Anyway, enough time wasted on this low life dude and thanks again from the rest of us. Keep up the great and very informative work. I was able to rebuild my son's KTM 150SX forks from watching your videos in total confidence, and they're working great!
Its also beneficial to give the bore a good scrub with scolding hot water and detergent to get all the non oil based grit and crud off the surface of the bore (which is most probably what came off on the rag), dry it off then give it the WD40 treatment.. No Engine block, Crank or Con Rods used to leave the engine shop I worked at without this :-)
Back in the day we used to lightly cross hatch the pistons with emery cloth prior to installation. Bikes ran great.
I didn't know this. I did mmi in 91-92. Nicosil wasn't used then. On our aircraft cylinders with this coating we did use ball hones to get a slight roughing up. A quick cross hatch then ultrasonic clean. Fit pistons and set end gap. And off we went. These cylinders would go 800 to 1200 hours then need rings and valve work but as a rule and as long as they weren't overheated the nicosil would be good but as a rule we chromed our cylinders being overhauled. Last as long and cheaper. Nicosil was factory and chrome was sometimes done at top overhaul. I've been away 10 years so I don't know what they do now. Thank you. Great information.
Thank you for the info. I am working on a 2000 Jaguar Vanden Plas with a Nikasil engine, and I am glad I found this video. I read on some sites that say the samething and a few use honing. One tip was the Scatch-Brite with warm mild soapy water to deglaze the cylinder bores. Either way, I'm still learning as I research
Thanks man I've wondered about the details on those cylinders for years
Spot on.
Very interesting how the process works. The nickel is only used to get the SiC (silicon carbide) onto the cylinder wall by electroplating. Most of the nickel is wiped away by honing leaving the layer of exposed SiC, which is a ceramic.
How many times I gotta tell ya?! Do NOT hone a nikasil coated cylinder! Lol
Great vid. Such a shame every day on the internet someone says "hone your cylinder before you install the new piston."
Do you not put a light coating of two stroke oil on it before re-install? (Great video thanks)
its a good practice
Your videos have inspired me to know they are my go to source for high level experienced advice for maintaining my 2019 500EXC-F and the 2022 300XCW I will be picking up in a few weeks. Im building the 300 with a small amount of bling , but most importantly adding all the practical aftermarket protection plus the Mule idle screw by removing the locked set screw with BOB SMITHS UNCURE as you recently pointed out in your video update. I just placed my first parts order with Slavens last week .
I am 66 , an active self employed 35 yr. ARBORIST and yes many tell me I'm crazy to buy a 300 Enduro to ride single track in the mountains of PA.! I just enjoy the challenge ( with in my abilities) to ride wher few will ever!
Now I always in this life take things to the next level and the people at POWER SPORTS in Downingtown where im buying the bike tell me im over the top.
Well to get to the mountains I'm 15 minutes away and must ride on state roads so Mike at TACOMOTO is helping to assist me with the needed Enduro lights and wire harness to build a street legal bike.
My service manual says to use a ball hone to deglaze the bore and bring back crosshatch. They even provide a part number for the ball hone to use.
Info in manuals is not always correct but do whatever you want. There is no benefit to honing and a lot of downside.
@Slavens Racing I'm working on a arctic cat 800 twin 2 stroke. I can still see crosshatching but there just alittle glazed, so would you recommend just using a scotch bright pad to deglaze?
@@DLaing898
Yes
I've always honed mine if the crosshatch was barely visible, just a 5 sec run up/down. Knocks down any bad spots also.
Maybe I'm lucky but I'm just sending my original cylinder out to be replated after 12 years
Wow. How many rebuilds do you get out of your cylinder before replating?
Acid can be used to remove aluminium smearing from seizures.
Dab it on the melted aluminium with a q tip but keep it away from any bare aluminium anywhere else, the Nikasil will not react with the aid but the aluminium will fizz up and wipe off
what kind of acid? Thanks
@@josephfelice601 muriatic/ hydrochloric acid
Jeff, you are a bottomless bag of incredible information. Thank you sir!
Glad to help
Thank you for the grat explanation. I do how ever have one quistion: One of the reasons why you would hone a cylinder is to make the oil stick better on the walls. Would that not be a problem for high PRM race cylinders if not honed?
I'd like to see you add something just for a test. Wash the cylinder with dish soap and water and a good brush instead of the solvents, dry it, then wipe with the WD40 just to see if you get more or less dirt coming up. I think less. The solvents carry fine particles into the porous surface, those particles are picked up by the WD40 and rag, to varying degrees.
so are you saying you leave the vertical glazing lines alone? Or should I use the sandpaper and try to get rid of them? You said you don't like to do that so I'm not really sure now. Thank you for the video by the way
I'm really no expert but once years ago I rebuilt a 500cc motor and had the cylinder bored out. The machine shop fellow told me the only way to really get all the grit 100% off the engine parts before assembly was with dish soap and water. Any kind of solvents like petrol, thinners or diesel don't really work. I guess its the degreasing nature of the dish soap that allows the grit to be flushed away in the water. What are your thoughts on this?
+Brian Fanner pressure air after washing is a good idea
Thanks for posting that Jeff, very interesting and informative.
My pleasure!!
i bought a 91 kx 250 cylinder and head for my 87 kx 250 it was already sleeved it is ready to put together next week. sleeving vs. plated. i never had a sleeved cylinder in 35 years. ill let you know.
+Kevin Stearns i put it together it runs fukin great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i use bel-ray si7 at 40:1
currently waiting for two LA sleaves, so I can repair damage caused by relying on a thin plating of nikasil, backed up by soft alluminum.
They (motor co.)can say whatever they like, bottom line is that it's cheaper to produce, and engineered to fail! Then they can sell you some replacement parts, or a new machine. I am sick of nikasil crap, failing me in one way or another. Super glad LA Sleave has stepped up, and made a superior product for so many applications.
No disrespect to you sir, I simply disagree with your assessment of that particular aspect.
I appreciate your comments BUT I totally disagree. Nikasil is far superior to soft cast iron sleeves that have poor heat transfer, add weight to the engine and poor port alignment that de-tunes the engine. It does not fail prematurely unless you ingest dirt. With proper care it will easily outlast a sleeve. KTM, Porsche, Mercedes, Maserati, BMW, Lamborghini, Bentley and many others use it because it works.
so im torn about honing my cylinder. I have 2017 KTM sxf250 with 66 hours. blew the crank and the cylinder looks great but i don't want to take any chances. When i purchased my vertex piston, the instructions tell me to hone the cylinder and I also see this in other instruction. You say not to and I take your word very seriously as i've been following you for a very long time and trust your word. Do you still think honing is more damaging then productive? I have the spring loaded flex hone.
A spring loaded flex hone will remove Nikasil coating and increase piston to cylinder clearance. Same effect as adding a hundred hours of wear. What do you think you are going to accomplish by wearing out your cylinder with a hone and filling the pores of the Nikasil with grit?
@@slaverace1 well when you say it like that. I honestly don't understand why it tells me to hone. Ill just clean it up and put the new piston in. Thx for the advice.
yes all the new race bikes have it 2 stroke or 4 stroke, and actually i think they have all bikes had it since like 2000 or later
Don't get hung up on some BS break-in procedure. Don't do heat cycles, don't putt, putt around, just ride it.
Jeff Slavens Excellent advice!
I am a diesel mechanic and that is the same advice we give on big diesel rebuilds.
3-Heat cycles MANDATORY! Then low, medium and high rpm 5 minute runs.
@@205gtipunk i also am a diesel fitter and motorcycle enthusiast, and I totally agree, if an engine in break in is babied the rings won't bed properly and the engine may use more oil than desired.
th-cam.com/video/xpoglovyy_8/w-d-xo.html
@@murraymachado401 not true at all. Here check this out
th-cam.com/video/xpoglovyy_8/w-d-xo.html
thanks for reveaLing the secret to why my ktm 3oo xc has more compression than any other well known two stroke ,. and it seems to be much more durabLe as well,.
getiing ready for few more upgrades such as ceramic piston side skirt coating and top coating to resist more heat and impact
and maybe at some point adding two eLectic motors to create the most perfect hybrid two stroke experience____🎄
Ceramic coating is a waste of money.
A Scotch Brite pad is used to smooth out the surface, not rough it up.
I don't think he's using it to rough it up, he's using it to clean the carbon glaze or what not
I have rebuild many 2 and 4 stroke bikes every cylinder bore was measured by bore gauge and every single cylinder was oval by approx. 0.01 - 0.03 mm. So I honed with diamond hone stones every single cylinder to become new crosshatch without any problem in over 15 years not even 1 cylinder was damaged somewhere honed more times. So I don’t understand how you could say you will ruin the bore. My opinion is when the cross hatch is back and the bore is not oval the rings will seal perfect and the sizing of piston will be constant.
The clearances are intended to be relatively tight on Nikasil cylinders and each time you hone you not only remove too much material but also fill the pores with grit that is not easily cleaned. ALL 2 stroke cylinders are out-of-round after just a short time of running because the port holes make an unstable surface. There is nothing to be gained (and much to lose) by honing a 2 stroke Nikasil cylinder.
How do I know when my cylinder can't take anymore rebuilds? Currently rebuilding my son's 65 and 85 about every 20 hrs
so glad I watched this, as the previous video I watched had a bloke using a ball hone, and the next guy was honing it (badly).
I guess I'll leave mine the **** alone
Hey Jeff. I have a KTM 450 cylinder torn down. The hash marks are worn smooth, and my next step was going to be to hone it before putting new rings on. I’m glad I saw your video. The cylinder is fine, I had a head problem that led me to tear it down.
The cylinder walls are shiny, and no scuffs at all. I’m just worried they aren’t holding enough oil, or giving the rings an opportunity to seat since the hash marks from the original hone are gone. Leave it alone?
Never mind, I read your comments further and saw you already said no hone necessary in the absence of hash marks
Hello
No cross-hatch is not an issue. In the past with cast iron sleeves the rings wore in (seated) to the cylinder but that is no longer the case with Nikasil coated cylinders. The Nikasil is so hard it wears-in (seats) the rings very quickly and the Nikasil is very porous and retains oil. Leave it alone and ride it hard. There is basically nothing to break-in. I do recommend not using full synthetic oil for the first 100 miles. Probably won't cause a problem but some synthetics are super slick and that can be problematic. slavensracing.com/shop/maxum-4-break-in-oil-by-maxima-racing-oils/
Clymer manual for DR650 specifically gives break in instructions.
Good explanation. What two stroke break-in oil you suggest to use?
Rebuilding a twin cylinder snowmobile. If the cylinders are damaged i will have them replated. I will clean them like you suggest before install. Do you use any sort of assembly lube on the rings? Or just dry rings to dry cylinder
PyroCat 1
Either way works fine.
Thanks for this mate I was worried about my break in cause I went with a moderate break in
Just ride it. No special procedure needed.
I have a 2000 rm125 and a 2005 rm85 I am doing top ends on. They both ran fine, but the 125 had LOW compression. Cylinders and pistons look great. Do I just install new piston/ring after cleaning cylinder? No deglazing, right?
Correct, no honing or deglazing.
the coating comes from the factory honed or are you just saying don't hone it again if replacing rings,piston etc.if it looks fine, What if it looks glazed??
What about Yamaha aluminum cylinders? Also would it be OK to just measure the top and bottom of the cylinder if I can't find an indicator dial to fit in there for the middle measurement? Gotta get the size for new rings
Yeah im just a bit confused as you said dont use one of those traditional honing devices as it damages nikasil, but they would do it evenly, where as using a low grade sandpaper just rubbing surely would leave it uneven and still damage the nicasil? ill do a video when i do it
Cylinder/piston clearances are not so small. 0.05mm is pretty big gap. If you can hone 0.01mm of nikasil coating, you definitely doing something else, but not honing. Hone leaves scratches 1 micron(0.001mm) deep, which is way smaller than thickness of the coating.
And your point is...?
@@idecidenotyou my point is it is fine to hone nickasil. In any case people call “hone” not what machinists mean hone. People basically do deglazing. Recently I took flakes of nikasil from cylinder and measured thickness, they were 0.07-0.1mm. You can’t remove nickasil by honing and also many companies who do coating deglaze it using stones during refurbishment. I didn’t see any manual yet prohibiting hone.
How does it ruin the coating? the hones you show mostly are made from aluminum oxide which is has a much lower Rockwell hardness than the coating.
Hello:
That is a long story I'll answer in an upcoming update video. Stay tuned please.
@@slaverace1 thanks. I’d be interested to know!
Hey I got a 2004 RM85 cylinder seems to be stock. Cylinder has small burr on the exhaust bridge but to the top of it, but not past the exhaust Bridge. Piston blew up and debris from the piston caused the crank lock. Pulled it all down crank is fine just a little issue with the small burr in the cylinder, everything else looks great in the cylinder. Don't really want to hone it. And don't want my next piston ring to get stuck on that small bur. What shoud i do ?
Thanks
Is this your recommendation for all Nikasil cylinders no matter the brand? My polaris service manual specifically states to use a stone type hone and both cylinders are in fact Nikasil coated..
Yes. The piston to cylinder clearance is tight and using any type of hone will increase the clearance and turn it into a worn out spec. Also, unless you have a high tech hot tank to clean it, the pores of the Nikasil will retain the hone grit and release it over time and that will lead to premature wear. There is nothing to be gained by honing, the rings will seat just fine.
@@slaverace1 even if there is barely any original crosshatch left?
Disregard my comment, just paranoid since I've only ever rebuilt bikes that have been sleeved. 20 hours already and the bikes been running mint! Appreciate this video muchly.
What if there's a small nick or scratch, can I repair it myself or can I get by with a small nick in the cylinder? I've read that honing doesn't really hurt the walls, it just preps the cylinder.
Hello
Nikasil should never be honed. If you have small areas that have an issue, lightly sand in a cross pattern with 80 grit Emory cloth.
@@slaverace1 I also notice the ports look rough around the edges. Is that normal? It's a Cylinder Works cyl.
I'll tell you what you know your stuff awsome ty.
Thank you.
I have a 200 mxc 2001 and the motor locked up the cylinder has 2 slight scores would you recommend having it sent to powerseal USA they nikasil the cylinder and bore it ? I know KTMs are super finicky what do you think I should do Jeff I don’t wanna buy a 900 dollar cylinder
Great video Jeff, i just bought a 125cc ktm, and it needs a new piston. I have not taken the cylinder off, yet becauce the i think the head nuts are fastend by locktite and I need to borrow some kind of heat tool. I took the exchaust off and I could see that the rings where very word and there where scratches aswell as carbon on the piston. I am not shoure is the cylinder is ok, do you think I should by a piston size bigger than the one I have now or does it depend? Thanks
+rminecraftsteve
The B piston is always needed.
+Jeff Slavens just a quick question I have a niskali cylinder and was wondering if I should scothbrite all of it till I see the old crosshatching if so what kind of action should I use?
I just took apart my 2009 xc250 and it has the smallest vertex piston (66.34) in it. Would I be safe to order the 66.35?
So I have a nikasil cylinder with little cross hatching was supposedly recently related by previous owner. measures out to good/new spec. you wouldn't worry about lack of cross hatching? I see some saying the walls won't retain enough oil along with the "won't seal right"
the rings are so good nowadays that they will eventually seat. But that is 100% correct, an insufficient cross hatch won't retain enough oil to keep the piston skirts skating on a film of oil. fact.
Hi Jeff - just wondering since this was from 9 years ago and chnages in tech , do you still reccomend no hone? not even a light ball hone like RMATV seem to reccomend in their ktm 300 top end rebuild. - thanks
Still applies today.
Hello Jeff,
Couple years ago I have to change my Exhaust flange after a bad impact in a rocky climb, that suck's because this part is originally bored together with the cylinder and it need adjustment when replace it.
You have any procedure or recommendation for that? I have keep my old flange to have it repair but part is cheap and I have buy a new one not knowing the coming issue. I adjust it with care by sanding the cover so the Power Valve can play freely.
I have recently purchased an Aprilia rs 250 with 12, 000 miles on the clock. Iam told the barrels are nikasil coated from new. Does the mileage indicate that the nickasil will now be past its best.
Not if the air filter has been serviced correctly.
Just measured and installed a C size piston and rings on my 250 exc and there wasn't really any of the original crosshatch left, the cylinder was basically flat smooth. Followed your instructions and didn't touch the cylinder except clean it up. Bike is running well.
thanks for info
got a used briggs 250 cc snow engine seized
aluminum transfer on cylinder
going to Clean with muriatic acid then scotchbrite
That's all I did for the 660 top end. Scotch bright pad and carb cleaner and wd 40. I searched to make sure to get the right grade scotch bright. I read the colors denote the strength but found that actually isn't completely true and just read what strength it actually says.
Does the head have any nikasil coating on it
No.
@@slaverace1 thanks for your Reply
So if the cylinder is glazed over slightly do you scuff it with a scotch brght or is it time for a recoat?
Hello:
Please describe what you call "glazed over" because I have yet to see it on any Nikasil plated cylinder. Two strokes sometimes get some oil/carbon residue that you can clean off with a Scotchbrite pad.
@@slaverace1 shiny but not gouged/grooved.
Is it necassary to deglaze nickaseal coating
Absolutely not.
@@slaverace1 thank you
Excellent
Thanks
Sir, need to ask that would it be fine to use 190cc big bore kit for nsr125? also, is it wise to replate or buy new 125cc after market cylinder.
I'm not experienced with NSRs.
ive pulled 3 cylinders off my yamaha 2000 gp1200r jetski. they come nikasil plated but idk if anyone has worked on them or not. how would i tell if the nikasil is still there or if they have been sleeved
Do nikasil cylinders require synthetic two-stroke oil and whether the engines without nikasil we must be careful that we pour oil, mineral or synthetic, or it does not matter which oil is poured. I mean trimmers and chainsaws? Thanks
Sorry, I don't understand your question. Just use high quality premix oil and mix it at the ratio recommended by the manufacturer of that oil.
@@slaverace1 Hehe ,, I'll try again ,,, I heard that old engines without nicasil should not use synthetic oil but mineral oil. Do you know anything about that
@@aikidosonkeisarajevo7858
Mineral oil is very basic and not a good lubricant. Stick with a quality synthetic or synthetic blend oil.
The cylinders are lightly scuffed and local builder says they could clean up perfect with a diamond hone. They are an engine specialty shop so would it be good to have them diamond honed? They take new cylinders and rings and take all measurements and use factory specs to get back to spec.
Which is the best honing tool my size is 30mm to 90mm
Where and how can I get it or purchase it
Moh, stick it in your ear and hone till the cows come home will be best for you
Wiseco piston recommends using a brush hone,which is different than a ball hone ( very few passes and with cutting oil) to restore the factory cross hatch. Only place I could find one was rocky mountain ATV. I am not saying this is right or wrong. Just what I did because I wanted to reuse an old jug.
So how do you tell if it's a nickisil coating
I saw other videos saying that using hones on nikasil coatings was just fine
You can lead a horse to a watering hole but you can’t make them drink.
There will never be a shortage of bad content on the web.
But if both people say the other is wrong then it makes it impossible to know who is correct @@slaverace1
Just tearing down my '13 KTM 250 XC-W for the first time after 135 hours. The portions of the cylinder where the piston doesn't travel show the nice factory cross hatch etching finish but the rest of the bore looks pretty smooth. Is this normal and am I ok to go with the cylinder as is?
how to you know if you have a nikasil plated cylinder?
KTMs from the 80s on all have Nikasil. You could also have it inspected by an experienced technician.
Magnet won't stick to Nicasil , use a magnet
Hey Jeff. I probably don't understand everything what is presented in this video. Could you please summarize which tool do you recommend and which reborn?
I can buy a cheap stone instrument for honing but I don't know if I can use it for nicasil cleaning before instal new piston.
Best regards!
No tools needed. NO honing. Clean it and re-install.
Thanks!
does the this coating come from the factory or you have to have it done.. dumb question, I know.
+Randy Marshall this coating comes from the factory in each cylinder.
This should also be adopted in 4-stroke engines?
Igor Vinicius I love buying ,the bike in boxes that somone thought they could fix.
What can I use if I don’t have scoth bright?
How many likes can I give to this video, one is not enough.
So if the cylinder is not damaged just ring it and go no hone or cross hatches necessary?
Correct, cross-hatch is not needed on Nikasil.
Hi. Do the KTM 4 strokes also have a Nikasil coating? I have a 2002 520 and a 2012 500.
Is carb cleaner safe on the nikasil?
Yes
@@slaverace1 what about muriatic acid ? For like aluminum build up. Will it eat the nikasil coat?
@@skidooman97 Dude, Nikasil is invulerable to almost all chemicals. You don't have to worry about that. Even spray paint hardly sticks to it.
I have a cylinder that has two small spots of piston metal melted & smeared along the wall like butter. What can I do about it? Rm250 99
You can use muratic acid in moderation to try and melt the aluminum off of the nikasil bore. Google it and research the method.
how was that cylinder "re finished"?
If you need a cylinder re-plated, contact www.usnicom.com
JEFF I HAD A COLD SEIZURE SOME OF THE PISTON IS ON THE EXHAUST SIDE OF THE CYLINDER THE METAL IS GROUND IN BUT NOT DEEP SHOULD I BALL HONE FOR 20 SECS TO TRY AND SALVAGE IT? ITS A BRAND NEW YZ 125 CYLINDER AND I DONT FEEL LIKE BUYING ANOTHER.
No ball hones or any other hones. To try and salvage it, go to the hardware store and buy some muriatic acid. Pour a little in to the cap from the jug. Then dip a Q tip (ear swab) in to the acid, then put the acid on the area where the piston transferred aluminum. It will bubble and make a mess. Keep applying until there is no more bubbling which indicates the aluminum is gone. Then rinse with water and dry with compressed air. At that stage you can sand that area with 220 grit emery cloth in an X pattern. Clean and install.
The term "cold seizure" has always bothered me because it's not correct. What really happens is the jetting is too lean then the cold temps make it leaner and cause the engine to seize. Richen it before riding it. No, not a bigger main. It's almost always too lean on the pilot and needle.
What if you think it transferred alu from the piston but it’s actually gone through the nicasil?
I have a nikasil cylinder that was honed a bit, is if f*ucked?
At home my dad has a special honing thing he uses when he hones two stroke nikasils, but I've only seen him do it twice. Once on a friends moped cylinder and one time on my snowmobile(the pistons melted)
we found out that cooland fluid were escaping into the crank-case from between the block-halves, so that could brobably haver something to do with it...
He effectively ruined the life of the cylinder if he honed a nikasil plated cylinder. NEVER HONE A PLATED CYLINDER PEEPS.
YOUS SUCK
it was only enough to remove the residue of aluminium from the pistons, not to damage the actual nicasil
YOU DON'T HONE NIKASIL!!!!! REMOVE ALUMINUM WITH CHEMICALS.
YOUS SUCK
bying the chemicals to do it + the time to actually do it, it would be cheaper just to buy a new cylinder, and it had to be up and running the next day
Hola , que herramientas se necesitan ?
No se necesitan herramientas. Sólo limpia.
Jeff Slavens , pero las herramientas que utilizas que salen en la mesa que se adaptan al taladro como se llaman , una se que se llama bruñidor de cilindros y la otra que es como una esponja de lunares como se llama y para que sirve ?
American BMW HP4 teams have been using Aluminum Oxide Hones and have been able to hone correctly with no differential difference in the bore. even under a microscope, it showed its validity without removing the Nikalsil Coating. Now without getting into extreme details.... are you trying to protect the backyard mechanics from over honing and killing their Nikasil or are you not informed of this method?
Several issues; the average backyard mechanic struggles to do basic maintenance correctly and I try to keep things simple to keep them from digging a hole. Telling what factory backed teams do or don't do has little or nothing to do with what the average Joe might attempt. 4 strokes (BMW) are much easier to correctly hone than a 2 stroke cylinder full of large holes. There is little to gain by honing Nikasil and a lot to lose if done incorrectly.
I'll stay tuned for your video.
Can i use a synthetic oil, like klotz r50 on break in?
There is no break-in.
Jeff, 2006 250xcw. There's a chip in the nikisil above the top ring stroke, about 1/8" long, along the very top of the cylinder edge on the intake side. Is this detrimental? Or can I safely run this?
Ty for any info.
As long as it's not in the path of the rings it wont hurt but I would look it over good.
how many hours it takes to break in new rings
On a 2 stroke it is a matter of minutes, not hours.
Thanks for that very good
what piston rings do you use on this,are rings from cast iron cilinder good ?
We use stock Vertex rings designed for Nikasil.
@@slaverace1 i dont have that option here where i live
The new barrel came with a nasty twisting score to to bottom! After listening to this it is obvious they SENT ME A REJECT cylinder, to the sucker in N.A....
Sounds like you need to contact the company you bought it from and not air your dirty laundry on my channel.
Hi sir;
New Nikasil coated cylinder does honing lines?
turbinebass with a diamond hone. Regular honing stones use abrasive and impregnate the porous coating just like he says here. He’s 💯 right
Who does replating if your cylinder has been honed?
sorry just found jeff's answer to that. no need to reply
We use US Chrome or Millenium Technology
I think I will also invest in a t gage set.
Did you watch the video?
Jeff Slavens I Thank God for this video... I was told by several people to hone, Rocky Mountain Atv/Mc has a video on how to, mentions nothing of the finish you taught me about, I bought my 15yr old a 2014 150sx, just started the top end, Thank you for sharing your knowledge, I feel super confident everything will go smoothly. Great teacher and tutorials..
So hone the shit out of it?
Ok got it 🤣
this is assuming your cylinder is not distorted or worn at all .
What if your sending it off to get it replated? Could you hone it then i have metal to metal transfer
Mike Teets No honing
Don't have your cylinder replated by powerseal usa, I did and it didn't last but 25 hours. The plating cracked and seized the top end. Have it sleeved and forget the headache.
Ryan Seigworth Fuck no sleeve a cylinder. Especially 125cc cylinders. Have rebuild 3 125cc engines that seized becouse of sleeving. They cant expand properly when they get really hot. 250cc forward i have no experience. But just dont... Honestly...
Ryan Seigworth i was gonna get my head re plated....but i wouldnt ride my 125 much since i got 3 other quads plus a cr125 did you ride it hard?
I did not ride it excessively hard mostly trail riding and some mx, I have a cr80 with a sleeved cylinder and have no issue with it.
So after i wipe it out,, i can hone it?
You must have fallen asleep during the video. I realize it is boring so drink a cup of Joe and try it again.
Yes...........ball hones seem to work the best flex hones are ok too
Re-watch the video. NEVER hone a Nikasil cylinder.
Even after you've wiped it out ??
Why do you want to hone it? What do you hope to accomplish? There is nothing to gain from honing and a lot to lose.
I have some marks on my cylinder from not letting my ktm 2t warm up enough, is honing like this a good idea or could i risk making my cylinder un-even?
Cold seizure...
GREAT SOUND
does nikasil cylinder need's break in?
+HondaYamaha Greece I will believe everything must , about 45 minutes of easy driving on a new cylinder , but after switching piston warm up the engine cool down so it is ready said them to me on the dirt bike store. but this is for racing
Clymer manual says break in should be done for 1600 km, in DR650.
I used to remove honing debris in cylinders in the sink with hot soapy water and a dish brush. Oil can had to be right there ready to squirt in because the clean, exposed iron liner oxidizes instantly.
Hey jeff, i have an 07 Kawasaki 250 2 stroke and the cylinder has a nikasil coating , i was wondering since the bike is getting pretty old do you think it will need to be re coated (i do top ends frequently) or should i just leave it ?The engine has probably had 5 top end rebuilds since new ,i don't want to be losing compression if i don't have to. i also run 40;1
Any help would be appreciated
also, the local shop charges about 400 to re coat and about 150 for a matched piston , i can get a new cylinder and piston + gaskets all OEM for 600.
What can I do if I have pittings on the cylinder wall? Can I use it the way it is?
Send a picture to info@slavensracing.com.
thanks ,I am about to speng& on my vintage 79RM125
John scott there is no nickel plate on that old of a bike.