I suggest a Part 2, where you build 2 complete engines, identical except for the bore finish. Then put them on a DYNO to test power, compression, oil consumption, etc.
It wont work that easy... Tolerances matters. One will be done in minimum, second will be little bit looser but still in toleration and whole test would lie... :) But it's an intresting concept. I guess mirror finish will be better if You have some really hard shell like nicasil in BMW, otherwise honing will be better, living longer with same preformance.
@@KenjiDev There is a reason why cylinders have been honed for the past 100 years. Mirror finish gives the oil a hard time to stick and lubricate the pistons.
@@KenjiDev You could actually prepare bores with identical TOLERANCES, but different finishes. Different rings require different "RA" numbers. This determines the grit of the finishing stones. Achieving a "mirror" finish would entail using something much finer and smoother. But the final bore sizes could theoretically be made identical.
I want to see another tear down after 20 000 km. of daily driving. It appears 1000 km largely motorway driving wasn't enough to show the very small difference.
Back in the 80s, I rebuilt an engine in the parking lot. I hand honed my cylinders not knowing what I was doing. When I first started driving after the "rebuild", the engine was really down on power. It took about 1000 miles for the piston rings to seat and the further I drove, the power slowly increased.
Rings and especially diy honing tools have come a long way. Now a days a flex hone can give you a killer finish if you go roughly the right speed up and down, and make sure you clean them real good. Rings now a days don’t have any problem sealing
The problem there was that the bores don’t wear round, they wear into a tapered egg shape. Rings can’t follow those cylinder walls. Out of curiosity, was it a Chevy 350? They used soft cast iron like the Ford Windsors did, but had a taller deck height and longer stroke in the 389 and 302, so they don’t wear as much as the Chevy. The 351W’s were not as plentiful so I don’t have much experience with them. Maybe one a year would come into the shop.
I ran 5hp. Briggs and Stratton engines on a race kart. I would rebuild several with hyperotective pistons with zero gap rings and use them at my home and shop for a year to break in the rings. then tear them down come spring and put the billet rod,loose fit by .005 over stock. long poly oil flipper, tuff ride crank. It was amazing the difference then just honing, build, race…..
When i was young i used to hear guys talk about ' chrome plated rings ' taking a long time to ' break in '. I thought that sounded like it had to wear through the chrome plating and sounded dumb like it defeated the whole purpose of the chrome. I then had a 350 chevy short block to rebuild and miked it all out. It had mirror finish cylinders with almost zero wear so i thought i would try something. I installed chrome plated rings without touching the cylinder finish. When i had 7 pistons in i could still turn it over by hand on the crank weights. I didnt need a wrench until i had all 8 installed. I put it all together and it ran clean and fine right from the start. It ran well and at about 20,000 miles i drove it across country getting terrific gas mileage.
@@g0tsp33d it meant a lot to me. I used to watch friends rebuild short blocks and be lucky if it worked at all. For mostly backyard engine building I went on my own knowledge of engines plus a few ideas of my own and I drove my engine across country towing things. Sorry if I didn't have proper flow charts and proper records. I did mic everything and made sure all my rod caps were as ' round ' as possible. I was 21
The homing effectively creates Labyrinth seals allowing oil retention that creeps back onto the aspirites where the reduced area metal to metal contact occurs between rings and cylinder. The unanswered question is how many km before all the bores present the same compression and what would the comparative ovality of bore look like? Higher compression would reasonably wear faster but might suffer increased ovality over the lower loaded cylinders in my estimation. Carbon build up would also lead to higher compression and reduce the equilibrium wear indication needed so maybe then do a decoke and check again would satisfy the conjecture nicely.....
Which is why engines need constant(ish) oil changes. Because the oil thickens over time. (There's ten replies about viscosity, go read those before replying.)
no matter what you have, though, without the crosshatch, there's no way for the oil to get up to the rings. And it rotates the rings to keep the wear even.
@@jwalster9412depends on the oil. I’ve seen thermal breakdown where the oil gets too thin to hold pressure in the pump. I’ve also seen some cars turn it to sludge. Toss up?
@@1NIGHTMAREGAMER Makes a huge difference. I only use Castrol GTX High Mileage Full Synthetic. Black jug. When I bought my car used in 2020 it require semi-synthetic. I was burning a quart every 500 miles. Got an oil change it just so happened that is what they used. I haven't burned a drop of oil in almost 3 years. I change it based on how it sounds. I quiets the engine to a purr and I get better gas mileage. When it starts to run a little rough I change it and that is about 5000 miles.
My understanding is that the honing serves 2 major purposes: 1) it traps oil against the cylinder walls for lubrication. The oil also helps the rings seal. 2) it helps the rings wear in when the engine is new (or fresh rebuild) and helps them seal better. A mirror finish would be better with a soft o-ring because the texture of the honing will shred the o-ring.
Actually --- a chromed ring set with very narrow edges for higher ring-to-wall pressure has to have mirror walls. The Japanese learned this early and their engines always ran well and for long. The US grew to appreciated the lowered friction and that factored into the C.A.F.E. Standards to help emissions and better performance. Face it --- today's engines get more power and performance out of smaller cubes and last longer than engines before this stage ever did. It's not uncommon to get 400K miles from a mass-produced engine, when ---> in the 1960s, engines went maybe 100K and needed a complete rebuild and bigger bore to clean up the badly tapered block. In the 1940-50s, you didn't "tune up" an engine, you overhauled it.
@@solarsynapse There is way more to that, than simple ringed or not. ABC linears are chrome plated or made of chromium. Chrome is very hard and have low friction. They run on premix so lubricating oil comes from both sides. They run on high revs so blowby isn't big problem. Most important, they don't last very long.
@@feluke8396 ABC engines don't hold compression till they get to working temperature , liner is way out of round when rhe egine is cold this is how this design works , brass alloys are commonly used with chrome plating on the liner walls this alloys are more thermoplastic than steel alloys so they can change their dimensions much fatser to seal the blow.When cared well the engines can surprising have long lives depending on the quality of the make.I have seen and owned some exemples worked more than 30 years still holding perfect compression.
As an engineer, trust me you need honing on the cylinder wall because of the lubrication, polished cylinders cause increased engine wear because the oil is not staying on the wall and lubricating it. That also worsens the thermals.
You talk about Teflon in a pan? Your ideal finish is probably sandpaper. Air presses past the rings through the drainage groves and pushed the oil onto the pan.
And what are you talking about, one time drag race ? Maybe for the extreme performance but if you want longetivity of the engine you need good lubrication and cooling effect.
@@patrickday4206 I learned that the lowest piston ring is there to remove oil from the walls. I guess that you could have a 4-stroke with a single piston ring and no lubrication problems. It would just drink a little more oil. Race engines have less rings because they get fresh oil before every race anyway.
Shiny is indeed better, the cross hatching is for the smooth wear in. Pull a head off good running old motor, it's smooth as glass. What you think about what's going on is mostly based on cold and new logic. The new doesn't last long and neither does cold. The surface starts heating on the very first ignition,although it hasn't penitrated into the block the first few microns of surface is hot and flashes between hot and cold until the external temperature reaches equilibrium with internal. Cold oil does infact bead up on a smooth surface but hot oil doesn't. As long as your oil ring is still wiping you have oilfilm. There's a reason high performance engines have the thinnest oil possible while maintaining oil pressure. Low voc high pressure is better at lubricating. Parts don't wear bc parts dont make contact ,theyre floating off of eachother. It being thinner means you can move more of it and it can easily reach places quicker
@@NotAnonymousNo80014 We need cars like this in the US. Our auto industry has let us down in a major way by putting their efforts into making cars that are needlessly expensive, difficult to repair, and that have features that are unnecessary, such as complicated audio systems.
@@NotAnonymousNo80014 Lada engines are built on very old porsche tech and Russians are quite experienced with metal casting. Lada's problems stem from poor fit and finish which are quite easily corrected if one has any idea how cars work. The other downside is they are quite uncomfortable to drive since everything is made simple as possible, no sophisticated undercarriage. Plus side is Lada's are pretty much bulletproof, you will always get from A to B.
@@NotAnonymousNo80014 oh hell yea, when I was in Russia some 5 years ago, I saw a commercial for Lada, I think it was Granta, it was around 6000 euro NEW. I wish we had those prices here..
This was an interesting test. I suspect that the greatest advantages of crosshatch honing are: 1) Increased oil-film adhesion resulting in reduced cylinder corrosion during long periods of storage. 2) Increased oil-film adhesion resulting in reduced cylinder scuffing during startup, after long periods of storage. 3) Reduced piston-ring friction resulting in greater power and fuel efficiency. Reduced friction is partly due to oil adhesion, and partly due to reduced contact area and normal force. 4) Reduced piston-ring friction resulting in reduced coolant temperatures.
The two angle cross hatch pattern has two purposes. The first is to provide lubrication to the rings. And the steeper angle causes the rings to rotate to keep the cylinder wearing evenly preventing premature wear.
@@WhatsIncluded With an offset, gasses do not have a direct straight line to flow past the gaps, they do all spin a little, they don't spin the same amount, so after some time they would probably fix themselves at least a little, but it does help.
The truth is somewhere in between.You first polish it and then hone.So the hone creates pockets (scratches ) for the oil to stay on the cylinder,but the actual surface where the rings ride is smooth(polished)
I swear these guys can read minds... I was wondering exactly this yesterday while thinking about sleeveless alloy engines (like Briggs and Stratton Koolbore) requiring a mirror finish in order to not eat themselves to death. I think it's a 2 stroke trait though, whereas a 4 stroke requires the honing to hold oil on the walls.
I'M A MECHANIC HERE, and I know of a problem that Audi suffered by making the cylinders with a mirror finish, the lack of honed caused excessive oil burning in the engine of the Audi A4 sedan, a friend of mine who worked at Audi spent almost a year reworking these engines, dismantling and grunting and assembling these cars, and the results match the video demonstration, so it's decided that honed is necessary
@@midgetrace My dad's car with 250k miles still has it's cylinders honed in a cross pattern. Definitely went not away within breakin period, as they shouldn't
My Chevy 350 had 266k miles on it and when I took it to the shop they swore that there was no way it had more than 150k miles on it. Seven of the eight cylinders had the factory crosshatch and perfect compression. Only one was smooth on one side, where the head cracked and dumped coolant in the cylinder, thus the rebuild. All I did was regular oil changes with a good quality filter and high rated cheep oil every 3k.
Back in the early 90s, I did a ring job on a 4 cylinder engine that had stuck rings on one cylinder and a cracked piston in another I honed the cylinders and after a week of regular driving, I took it for a 350 mile round trip that took about 6 hours. That engine never used any oil after that. It used half a quart during break in and that was all it ever used during the time we had that car.
Honing for a combustion engine allows holding oil in the cylinder walls for better lubrication. Smooth walls are for Hydraulics to save the O rings for a longer life!! Been a mechanic for 45 years
@@michaelbirchall2247 yeah so does a 2 stroke engine you want a continuous oil film just like bathing your main bearings that's the whole concept! If you took an engine with a cross hatch pattern and took and ran total synthetic oil it would never break in! It would actually consume more oil that's why conventional break in oil is preferred then switch to synthetic oil latter . Those rings need seated in ..
Yes, rings need to be seated during the break-in period of an engine: What happens during break-in The break-in period, also known as run-in, is when a new piece of equipment is conditioned by running it for an initial period. Why rings need to be seated The rings need to be seated into the cylinder wall to create a compatible seal. This process ensures that the engine achieves maximum power output and consumes the least amount of oil. How to seat the rings The engine should be run under a load to increase cylinder pressure and force the rings into the bore. This can be achieved by gradually increasing the load from 50 to 75 percent, and eventually to 100 percent. Tips for breaking in an engine Avoid pushing the engine too hard. Vary the engine load and rpm. Don't keep the rpm at the same speed for more than a few seconds. Lightly let off the gas pedal and gently get back on it.
A cross-hatch pattern on a cylinder bore can help with lubrication and engine performance, but the ideal angle depends on several factors: Angle A 45° cross-hatch angle is often considered ideal because the piston's upward motion spreads oil sideways to cover the entire cylinder wall. However, the ideal angle can vary depending on the ring tension, stroke length, and other factors. For example, long stroke engines may perform better with a 60° cross-hatch. Too shallow A cross-hatch angle that's too shallow can cause wear issues. Too steep A cross-hatch angle that's too steep can cause oil consumption, dry starts, and premature ring wear. Ring manufacturers typically recommend a cross-hatch angle of 22° to 32°. Measuring A protractor or business card can be used to check the cross-hatch angle. A Cross Hatch Angle Checking Tool can also be used to measure the angle. Appearance A freshly honed cylinder will look rough, while a used cylinder will have a "glazed" surface with little or no visible cross-hatch.
the honed cylinders had less deposits on the valve than the polished cylinders. i was aware that you want to hone cylinders before installing new rings for best results, but it's nice to see it confirmed.
@@doopiejNope it's the opposite, as op said the honed ones are cleaner, check the start of the video: the cylinders marked -0.02 are the ones with mirror finish and check their position relative to the timing chain hole
I really like the off the wall ideas being put to test from this group!! Seem some stuff that you'd never think would work actually work! I bet this group can actually fix anything that thrown at them.
Carbon deposits don't necessarily come from burning oil. Gasoline is a hyroCARBON fuel. Incomplete combustion can leave carbon deposits. Too little air can make the engine smoke, right? Love the video!
@@Skaadi89 Not if you're a professional lol. They use surface profilometers to measure the actual microscopic peaks and get the finish exactly how they want it. You don't want to have to break in a race engine cause now it's lost a bit more of it's already short life. You fire it up, check the tune, maybe check a two-step if you're drag racing, then you quickly shut it off. You want to run it as little as possible unless its actually racing.
Depends on the ring package more than anything else. For best performance (and will use some oil): Typical cylinder bore finish readings of Pro Stock or Comp Eliminator, or NASCAR engines are as follows: Rpk 4 to 6; Rk 18 to 22; Rvk 18 to 32
@@rsemrad2 basically the smooth creates more carbon in the heads from the piston rings removing hundredths or thousandths of metal from the cylinder walls and themselves through contact. A smooth bore would allow equal distribution of pressure around the cylinders but momentum would mean the pistons have just enough wiggle room to touch the cylinder walls where as with a honed bore, you would have those pockets of unequal pressure filled with fluid and fluid is dynamic which means the pressure would force the oil into the low pressure pockets, thus creating a smaller area for pressure to build up and equalizing the pressure. In the smooth bore that pressure only sits in one area and is dispersed on the 3rd stroke instead of every stroke in the process. It means your rings will wear out faster and if there's blow by, then it's just as hard and as fast going the other direction as it is going in the intended direction
@@doopiej yes and as the brother explained, when your cylinders get hot enough, they’ll burn deposits away, which means those rings have a higher chance of failing in those cylinders
This is a valid concept. Very high performance engines are built to much tighter clearances but they are less cross-hatch and more polish. On the other hand, they are NOT daily drivers and will not start without a preheating of the oil and coolant, most of the time overnight.
The way ive been told about honong - you can only get so good of a machined finish. So adding in the cross hatching (in addition to letting it retain some oil during break in) allows the rings to essentially machine themselves to the cylinder - implying a mirror finish is what you're going for, but you'll never really achieve if you need specific tolerance
I think the differences have occured between the pistons because the honing and polishing was done by hand rather than on a machine. those slight variences are then multiplied by the thermo-cycling of the engine giving rise to those differences seen in the engine.
I was watching the hydraulic press channel, where they were showing some huge bearings. It would be cool to see you guys fit those to a Lada to make some kind of wheel for it.
The crosshatching is an actual score into the piston side- that little extra space where oil is not scraped away by the ring, even as the hieghtened edges of the score provide more surface area for better sealing.
I knew the extention one because we did it at tech school. We put 16ft of extentions on a torque wrench and it was exactly where it should be. On the other hand, I did not know about the anti-seize. That's really good to know.
Your guys do a fantastic job working on the engines you direct them to modify, I really like you and the channel, I wish there were as many old Ladas here in the USA, they seem to be really dependable reliable.
Honing is about durability not compression. It's main purpose is to create a film of oil under the piston rings in the valleys trapped.oil in Shiny cylinders will get wiped right away by piston rings.
I love seeing people from different nations enjoying the same hobbies. The internet is such a cool thing. I’m enjoying your vids bud. Hello from America.
I guess it does matter on what type of rings you're using . But the 22 degrees (roughly) is important for proper oiling . But a standard nodular quick seater ring will have a hard time getting a seat on a polished wall texture, where as a chrome ring will be more at home with a polished surface . I figured 1 and three would have a better time with oil control . I built a lot of engines over the years though . Good work guys . :)
The scuffing allows the oil film to better adhere to the cylinder walls rather than collecting on the top ring to be burned and this test result proves it as the honed chambers are cleaner. Now that self lubricating molybdenum rings have become standardized the moly fills in the scuffs creating a smooth bore hence the reason modern engines are consuming more oil but still last much longer between rebuilds like a diesel.
Accurate piston ring gap on original assembly always made for good bedding in and good compression afterwards. Always honed and used Graphene and good quality oil on the build. Running at 11:1 gapped slightly wider as she ran slightly hotter.
@@Dannysoutherner GM jumped the shark with that aluminum 140 cubic inch engine in the Vega. In 1976, they finally worked out the bugs and called it the Dura-Built 140 but, the car's reputation was toast at that point.
@@BlackPill-pu4vi I had a 77 Vega when I was a teen. It moved under its own power and price was right so it was a great car to me. Blew a head gasket, my fault. Fixed that and learned a lot along the way. My mom borrowed it one night and piled it up. Todays rolling iPhones I have no use for. Give me pre 90s any day.
@@JeffKopis Yes. The 2.0 Cosworth engine that did get put in the Vega has massive tuning potential. It was choked by the smog equipment of the time. Some car magazine (don't remember) desmogged a Cosworth Vega and that engine really woke up. New non-smog camshaft, fuel, timing, that engine's power really came out.
You are lucky, your dream car is easily achievable. For me it was the opposite because they only built 400 of my dream car. and it cost me waay more than its worth to get it here I even had to ship it from another country/continent. If I can do it so can you.
The polished cylinders will probably need around 10,000Km before rings seat properly. Honed cylinders will bed in rings faster plus, the 'scratches' allow an oil film to lubricate rings.
@@Dronohthrow that Lucas crap in the bin and just use fully synthetic oil. Modern cars don't like that thick goopy crap in their veins especially with the vvt engines and small bearing tolerances that Lucas stabilizer is just too thick. Might help an old ( pre 2000s) engine but keep that crap out of a modern engine.
The honing holds a small amount of oil in the crosshatching. Compression is maintained with this. As in when loss of compression due to worn rings adding oil increases compression.
where do people ask such a question? a cylinder with a miror finsh will not keep oil in place on the cylinders walls, where a honed finish will be absolutely perfect to keep oil on the cylinders walls and also to keep a good compression ratio (this need has been discovered more than 120 years ago)
Once break in the honning gets errased after enough miles 10kto 20k miles, so the supposed effect of oil staying on the honning marks is not forever, its mostly to give an evenly round shape to the cylinder wall.
@@vaninec It's still honed with a crosshatch, it's just 600 grit vs 240 grit. It's still a plateau hone, you still want those oil valleys and not too many peaks.
I've twice deglazed/honed motorcycle engines by hand with sandpaper. 100 grit perhaps. Quick to break in and never had any oil blowby. Just worked it at that same 40/45 deg angle. FWIW.
I learned the honed finish inside cylinders is mainly done because a honed cylinderwall better retains oil. Also reduces friction because at any point in time there is less contact surface between the piston rings and the cylinder walls. Similar concept to scraped glide surfaces on metal working machines. For compression it would be best to have microscopically polished walls and rings but then again that makes it hard for oil to stick and keep a nice film of oil all the time. Modern engines have coated cylinder walls with micro porosity. Very similar to diamond and it retains oil very nicely for very low friction and wear resistance.
Dont support sexual changes, support ppl accepting how they were born. Thats what gender affirmation should be, not the inverted and harmful meaning deceptive ones use.
the mirror finish seen in some high-end engines is because of the different material not the machining process. mostly used on alloy blocks and diesel engines. the mirror finish bores are the result of molten steel alloy sprayed on the bore. this reduces ring to bore friction. the ring style and composition is also very different.
Honed is good for break in as it's rough and allows for a custom piston ring fit and better compression faster thus isolating wear to the rings, you also use break in oil to do this for a small amount of miles. After you switch to normal oil. Polished I can see less resistance overall and a break in oil could still be used and logically speaking it may take longer but once the rings break in and you switch oils it should allow for a smoother run engine with minimal drag, but the difference would be very minimal as either engine with wear a pattern into the cylinder walls but on honed the rings will be formed faster but have more overall wear... Engine wise break in is the most crucial time and reducing the time spent in it is ideal(just like warm ups daily). I've rebuilt my race engine a few times and I think break in oil is a scam, just like I feel 8f warm up times being shorter us the goal, a moderate throttle run warms up the engine faster than a low load warm up and thus you get into efficiency faster. Honed vs mirror, I'd say mirror would be best if you drive a longer break in period while honed you drive much less and change oil. Either should be the same once you change oil to a good synthetic with plenty of zddp.
I think you could record the bore measurements and see if and how they change, also if you have oil analysis anywhere you can see if it's also causing more wear in the engine. This was really cool to see the compression ratios go up as they start to seat with the walls. I wonder if oil temp gauges could show with a different bore finish
Im afraid if you have polished bores it’s either, poor quality lube oil and or very high hrs of operation. Smooth bores usually come with high oil consumption and poor emissions (smoke)
Wellll, hone finish depends on the ring material. In the 1960s chrome plated rings were common. These required a fairly coarse cylinder wall finish to enable the rings to wear into the cylinder walls. On initial startup the friction was high and it may take 30.000km for the engine to break in. Then we progressed to a molybdenum infill in the top ring face. This required a smoother cylinder finish applied using finer grit stones. Now cylinder walls are initially honed with diamond stones of about 400 grit to about 0.0003" from final size. Then 800 grit stones are installed and 5 or 6 strokes are made to knock the high spots off the cylinder walls. The rings and piston skirts ride on the flat surfaces left while the deeper scratches hold oil to lube the skirts and rings.
I think these guys have to allow at least 500 miles to seat the rings. They must be bored because this video is really obvious. Any engine I have overhauled was hand honed in my.garage. never had a problem and my engines always ran great, well, except my first few. Lol
Check piston ring gap, check valve guide wear and value seats for 3 angle valve grind, check valve spring tension, check rocker valve tappet clearance, check head surface for straightness. Check block deck for straightness
The only engine where you do not hone the cylinders are those with plated cylinder bores like Nikasil etc because the silicon carbides used can never be effectiely cleaned out causing the bits of nikasil to embed in the piston skirts causing excessive wear down the road. There is a reason that after honing you first wash with a detergent then wipe with many clean white rags soaked in engine oil and you will be amazed at the metal that comes out of the bore, Does not work anywhere as effectively with plated nikasil type bores.
Great work, thanks for sharing! What kind of vehicle is that, I love the look but it needs a performance V8! Do they make a 2 door version of that vehicle?
The fuel used is a big factor when it comes to the carbon buildup as well. The carburetor maybe running rich as well. Put 5km on the engine then recheck for the compression, oil consumption, and carbon buildup. Also check for even heating and cooling in the block. You may have cold spots or hot spots in the head and block
You need texture is like fine sandpaper that sands new rings into the perfect unique shape for a perfect seal. Even a new blueprinted engine finishes the machining as its running.
There was a Fascinating video the other day on daves auto Centre TH-cam channel where they had a guy on discussing this exact topic. He's a specialist in the field and scan the bore after honing to see how many troughs it has for oil!
The hone marks or scratches hold small amounts of oil for lubrication and also help wear the new rings to exactly match the shape of the cylinder. A new engine would come with its cylinders finish honed, if that was a bad thing to do, the engine manufacturers would not do it. Keep in mind there are different grit honing stones, a less course stone is preferred for finish honing.
It need to be honed, because of the lubrication, the oil settle down in the small grooves. It prevents the oil Film from ripping off. So it saves your engine from an early death.
Honed has that grip for oil to stick too, smooth has no grip for the oil. Smooth is excellent when 2 surfaces are rubbing, pressurize some oil through there and the oil becomes a boundary layer between the metal surfaces. Cylinder wall has no pressurized oil being squeezed between it and the piston, so oil scraper rings and a sticky honed cylinder wall is required to keep oil there. If ya wanna burn out your engine, go smooth
@SG-wp6sg it'll never go to being a glass surface, specially on the thrust side. It's just that the marks are more vertical than horizontal which won't hold oil as well.
Only 2x very important reasons that I know for honing the cylinder, with new piston rings, 1= the honing in "cross hatching" patterns will wear the new piston rings into the exact shape of the cylinder, taking the rough casting edges off the rings to seal up and give better compression. 2= the honing in a cross hatching pattern will always pick up and keep oil on the cylinder, giving better lubrication and less friction and wear. but otherwise the mirror finish would be awesome if the rings were ground and polished to fit the newly machined bore exactly, like formula one engines.
I know when I used to race the flathead Briggs & Stratton engines in go-kart racing We done a mirror finish..They would use oil but it didn't matter because it got changed after hot laps and then after the main race.. those guys claimed the engines would spin up quicker and turn more RPM.. and to help the compression seal they would drill gas ports in the top of the piston.. seem to work well..
@@herseem they are very tiny holes in piston top where the inside ring edge would be . Theory of combustion gas pressing the rings out and sealing better .
Flexhoned bores / wet liners , all plain bearing surfaces Will,s ring sealed combustion chambers .four into one self bent exhaust system 1 -1/2 " primaries . sounded glorious like a mini Cosworth DFV.
Rolls Royce hones their cylinder and tosses them out into the back yard for a year or two, allowing for rust pitting which, after a fresh hone, will allow oil to much more reliably protect the cylinder walls.
You're very close to plateau honing there. Where you do a deep crosshatch followed by a much finer grit. Holds oil for lubrication but doesn't have the pointy tops to burr over, beds in faster and seals better.
Ok...Honing and ridge reamer ready...Semi Retired Mobile Mechanic/ Ex Street Racer..Combo of Tech Factory/Aftermarket/Promachist Shops is a great set of knowledge..Study all....
A mirrored surface is never preferable over honed. Whoever said that is wrong. Honed cylinders provides a lubricating ring surface, where a smooth surface prevents oil from clinging to the cylinders. Honed cylinders are like tiny oil pockets that rings use to glide on. Honed cylinders seat the rings, prevents the rings from breaking because they're being lubricated. With a smooth bore, the oil film is reduced creating higher friction, possible ring breakage and wear is increased. Always hone cylinders in any engine.
Vacuum leak causes the shake in the engine, yes I do believe the compression test, less friction, less cutting by the rings on the polished cylinders, but they will allow oil to pass by the rings on the highly polished cylinders. Increased compression because of less ring groves cut into the rings and cylinders.
Rings will never seat with shiny finish. Usually your ring maker will say what hone to use. After watching, actually I am pretty impressed. Wonder how it would do long term.
My old mechanic used to dump VIM abrasive cleaner through the carby to rough up the polished cylinder walls on the new Ford Falcons in Australia 🇦🇺 in the 70ties.
There’s a good reason we keep the engine’s and engine bay spotlessly clean in racing. If oil appears on anything we know where it is coming from leaks or spray. It’s all instantly apparent. Why not steam clean everything under the bonnet it’s cleaner to work on too. The last time I polished a cylinder by hand. I was 11 years old and knew no better it was on my 125 motocross bike. The only saving grace was I probably I didn’t do that good of a job. Honing traps minuet amounts of oil and stops wear on start up a tiny bit of 2-stroke in the fuel world be a good idea if you intend to polish the cylinders. I get why you would want to do it. Less friction equals a cooler engine so you can raise the Rev limiter and get more brake horsepower. But you become more reliant on the lube and would need to warm up the engine carefully. Because of the expansion and less cylinder surface oil Interesting I’d like to know what is the fuel. 98 octane. Or E5 E10 fuel. Does it have detergents or octane boosters maybe stabilisers. Scratching the surface. I would have tested with two different cylinder blocks took dyno readings after 1500 miles and then checked for wear. I think out of the two the polished would be best performance but show wear. And the honed slightly less performance but would have longevity. And that’s why the motor industry does it that way. But well done proper mechanics.
The honed cylinders seem to be using less oil, but I think it's because they "broke in" more quickly. The mirror finish cylinders don't seat the rings quite as quickly. Those cylinders need a longer break-in period, perhaps, 5,000 kilometers to break in, because of the less abrasive finish. The rings will eventually polish the honed cylinders, so in the long run, it doesn't make a difference. The differences in compression can be the result of valve clearance, or, a worn camshaft. Differences in valve closure timing make a huge difference at cranking speed. Loosening the valve clearances will increase compression significantly.
I had an idea over 50 years ago, replace the cam with pneumatic lifters. The first engine I rebuilt was a 2 stroke. I used to turn it by hand to see what was going on. Next I did a Honda XL250 motor with a four valve head. I put a higher lift cam in and again turned it over by hand to watch the valves. I was surprised how much resistance the valve gear causes. Also, while learning about cam profiles I began understood how they affect ridaability. That's when I thought about pnuematics. Not only would you be able to change characteristics (this was a long time ago, with modern chips and sensors this idea is even better) but you would lose a heap of internal resistance, especially with a multi cam, high lift, stronger valve spring motor. It would spin up like a 2 stroke. I never got anyone interested enough to help me build it, and now I see Christian Keonigsegg has got a team called freevalve using a similar idea on a Saab. Do you think you can make it?
I noticed how much load the valve gear placed on an engine when I was driving my girlfriend's 2.0 pinto-engined Capri and the timing belt failed. When I tried to start the engine (in the middle of a yellow box junction of course) it turned over so quickly that the noise it made was so different I wondered what was going on. At first I thought the starter motor was missing the ring gear, but once we'd pushed it out of the way and looked under the bonnet, it all became clear. I had a high-performance Allegro project going on at the time, but my next project will be a super-mild cam, rev-limited to half the normal maximum revs and with super-soft springs at half normal strength, with only two of the four valves per cylinder in use. This should use much less fuel and will be configured to idle at a much lower speed and should be a super-economical town car. As it's so infrequent that I ever have felt the need to go over 3500 revs, I should be able to still drive like normal but get better performance with less fuel.
The honed cylinders allow for oil to remain in the very small grooves protecting the tv walls and rings. That’s it’s primary function. The mirror cylinder would be theoretically capable of a better seal but the friction would increase wear and shorten the life of the parts.
On newer engines, with fancy materials on the cylinder walls, you use much finer abrasives to hone. Old school iron, you'd rough up the walls with like 120 grit and finish with 240, new school you're roughing up with 400, and finishing with 600 or more.
Smooth Cylinders = Rubber Seals, tight seal... great for break cylinders. Honed Cylinders = Metal Rings, traps lube for longer... Better for engine Mirror finish has the potential to not have enough lubrication and therefore make you lose compression because air can get around the rings easier.
![ร้อยพ่อพันแม่ - WanMai [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XY2pNYASEbg/mqdefault.jpg)
I suggest a Part 2, where you build 2 complete engines, identical except for the bore finish. Then put them on a DYNO to test power, compression, oil consumption, etc.
It wont work that easy... Tolerances matters. One will be done in minimum, second will be little bit looser but still in toleration and whole test would lie... :)
But it's an intresting concept. I guess mirror finish will be better if You have some really hard shell like nicasil in BMW, otherwise honing will be better, living longer with same preformance.
@@KenjiDev There is a reason why cylinders have been honed for the past 100 years. Mirror finish gives the oil a hard time to stick and lubricate the pistons.
@@Chris-yy7qc Correct. I just want Vlad and the boys to demonstrate that fact, with real numbers.
@@KenjiDev You could actually prepare bores with identical TOLERANCES, but different finishes. Different rings require different "RA" numbers. This determines the grit of the finishing stones. Achieving a "mirror" finish would entail using something much finer and smoother. But the final bore sizes could theoretically be made identical.
I want to see another tear down after 20 000 km. of daily driving. It appears 1000 km largely motorway driving wasn't enough to show the very small difference.
Back in the 80s, I rebuilt an engine in the parking lot. I hand honed my cylinders not knowing what I was doing. When I first started driving after the "rebuild", the engine was really down on power. It took about 1000 miles for the piston rings to seat and the further I drove, the power slowly increased.
Have the engine also consumed tons of oil at the beginning?
Rings and especially diy honing tools have come a long way. Now a days a flex hone can give you a killer finish if you go roughly the right speed up and down, and make sure you clean them real good. Rings now a days don’t have any problem sealing
The problem there was that the bores don’t wear round, they wear into a tapered egg shape. Rings can’t follow those cylinder walls. Out of curiosity, was it a Chevy 350? They used soft cast iron like the Ford Windsors did, but had a taller deck height and longer stroke in the 389 and 302, so they don’t wear as much as the Chevy. The 351W’s were not as plentiful so I don’t have much experience with them. Maybe one a year would come into the shop.
I ran 5hp. Briggs and Stratton engines on a race kart. I would rebuild several with hyperotective pistons with zero gap rings and use them at my home and shop for a year to break in the rings. then tear them down come spring and put the billet rod,loose fit by .005 over stock. long poly oil flipper, tuff ride crank.
It was amazing the difference then just honing, build, race…..
Did it go back to spec?
When i was young i used to hear guys talk about ' chrome plated rings ' taking a long time to
' break in '. I thought that sounded like it had to wear through the
chrome plating and sounded dumb like it defeated the whole purpose of the chrome.
I then had a 350 chevy short block to rebuild and miked it all out. It had mirror finish cylinders with almost zero wear so i thought i would try something. I installed chrome plated rings without touching the cylinder finish.
When i had 7 pistons in i could still turn it over by hand on the crank weights. I didnt need a wrench until i had all 8 installed.
I put it all together and it ran clean and fine right from the start.
It ran well and at about 20,000 miles i drove it across country getting terrific gas mileage.
@@g0tsp33d it meant a lot to me. I used to watch friends rebuild short blocks and be lucky if it worked at all.
For mostly backyard engine building I went on my own knowledge of engines plus a few ideas of my own and I drove my engine across country towing things.
Sorry if I didn't have proper flow charts and proper records. I did mic everything and made sure all my rod caps were as
' round ' as possible. I was 21
Well what i can remember from my engineering courses, honing provides tiny pockets for oil to sit, reducing wear and blow by.
The homing effectively creates Labyrinth seals allowing oil retention that creeps back onto the aspirites where the reduced area metal to metal contact occurs between rings and cylinder. The unanswered question is how many km before all the bores present the same compression and what would the comparative ovality of bore look like? Higher compression would reasonably wear faster but might suffer increased ovality over the lower loaded cylinders in my estimation. Carbon build up would also lead to higher compression and reduce the equilibrium wear indication needed so maybe then do a decoke and check again would satisfy the conjecture nicely.....
If the compression gets an little higher they'll have to start using racing fuel or add some type of additive to the regular gasoline .
They have discovered now days that cross hatching makes them seal better n the RA n RK n RPk of what rings you use also.
"Oil Retention Finish"
Some things don't change
EXACTLY 100%
Generally speaking for minimizing friction, thick oil likes rough surfaces. And thin oil likes smooth surfaces.
So it depends on what oil ye using
Which is why engines need constant(ish) oil changes. Because the oil thickens over time.
(There's ten replies about viscosity, go read those before replying.)
no matter what you have, though, without the crosshatch, there's no way for the oil to get up to the rings. And it rotates the rings to keep the wear even.
@@jwalster9412depends on the oil.
I’ve seen thermal breakdown where the oil gets too thin to hold pressure in the pump.
I’ve also seen some cars turn it to sludge.
Toss up?
@@1NIGHTMAREGAMER Makes a huge difference. I only use Castrol GTX High Mileage Full Synthetic. Black jug. When I bought my car used in 2020 it require semi-synthetic. I was burning a quart every 500 miles. Got an oil change it just so happened that is what they used. I haven't burned a drop of oil in almost 3 years. I change it based on how it sounds. I quiets the engine to a purr and I get better gas mileage. When it starts to run a little rough I change it and that is about 5000 miles.
What I loved most was the guy driving circles in the middle of the track
Same😂
Zing zing zing zing!
Honed of course. The rings will seat and seal much better in a honed cylinder.
it seats less better but the oil remains on the walls so its always lubricated with a film of oil and makes the sealing better
This was actually a topic of heated debate but it was quite a while ago in internal combustion engine history.
the oil have to stay on the cilynder, so honed
@@retrocompaq5212 This.
Polished could be good for race engines that get rebuilt every race or run. But other than that honed is best for seat and break in.😎
My understanding is that the honing serves 2 major purposes:
1) it traps oil against the cylinder walls for lubrication. The oil also helps the rings seal.
2) it helps the rings wear in when the engine is new (or fresh rebuild) and helps them seal better.
A mirror finish would be better with a soft o-ring because the texture of the honing will shred the o-ring.
Actually --- a chromed ring set with very narrow edges for higher ring-to-wall pressure has to have mirror walls. The Japanese learned this early and their engines always ran well and for long. The US grew to appreciated the lowered friction and that factored into the C.A.F.E. Standards to help emissions and better performance.
Face it --- today's engines get more power and performance out of smaller cubes and last longer than engines before this stage ever did. It's not uncommon to get 400K miles from a mass-produced engine, when ---> in the 1960s, engines went maybe 100K and needed a complete rebuild and bigger bore to clean up the badly tapered block. In the 1940-50s, you didn't "tune up" an engine, you overhauled it.
Honed cylenders are for holding oil in the scratches. Smooth cylenders are for o rings.
Model engines that are ABC don't have rings and are mirror finished piston and cylinders. Ringed engines are honed.
@@solarsynapse There is way more to that, than simple ringed or not.
ABC linears are chrome plated or made of chromium. Chrome is very hard and have low friction. They run on premix so lubricating oil comes from both sides.
They run on high revs so blowby isn't big problem.
Most important, they don't last very long.
@@feluke8396 ABC engines don't hold compression till they get to working temperature , liner is way out of round when rhe egine is cold this is how this design works , brass alloys are commonly used with chrome plating on the liner walls this alloys are more thermoplastic than steel alloys so they can change their dimensions much fatser to seal the blow.When cared well the engines can surprising have long lives depending on the quality of the make.I have seen and owned some exemples worked more than 30 years still holding perfect compression.
As an engineer, trust me you need honing on the cylinder wall because of the lubrication, polished cylinders cause increased engine wear because the oil is not staying on the wall and lubricating it. That also worsens the thermals.
You talk about Teflon in a pan? Your ideal finish is probably sandpaper. Air presses past the rings through the drainage groves and pushed the oil onto the pan.
And what are you talking about, one time drag race ? Maybe for the extreme performance but if you want longetivity of the engine you need good lubrication and cooling effect.
I know an engineer, but a train related one.
Not on a 2 cycle though just add some motor oil to your gas
@@patrickday4206 I learned that the lowest piston ring is there to remove oil from the walls. I guess that you could have a 4-stroke with a single piston ring and no lubrication problems. It would just drink a little more oil. Race engines have less rings because they get fresh oil before every race anyway.
Honed of course. The term deglaze the cylinders isn't around because shiny is better.
Shiny is indeed better, the cross hatching is for the smooth wear in. Pull a head off good running old motor, it's smooth as glass. What you think about what's going on is mostly based on cold and new logic. The new doesn't last long and neither does cold. The surface starts heating on the very first ignition,although it hasn't penitrated into the block the first few microns of surface is hot and flashes between hot and cold until the external temperature reaches equilibrium with internal. Cold oil does infact bead up on a smooth surface but hot oil doesn't. As long as your oil ring is still wiping you have oilfilm. There's a reason high performance engines have the thinnest oil possible while maintaining oil pressure. Low voc high pressure is better at lubricating. Parts don't wear bc parts dont make contact ,theyre floating off of eachother. It being thinner means you can move more of it and it can easily reach places quicker
Lada has to love Garage 54, the way they show what Lada's cars are capable of.
Capable of being abundant and cheap.
@@NotAnonymousNo80014 We need cars like this in the US. Our auto industry has let us down in a major way by putting their efforts into making cars that are needlessly expensive, difficult to repair, and that have features that are unnecessary, such as complicated audio systems.
@@NotAnonymousNo80014 Lada engines are built on very old porsche tech and Russians are quite experienced with metal casting. Lada's problems stem from poor fit and finish which are quite easily corrected if one has any idea how cars work. The other downside is they are quite uncomfortable to drive since everything is made simple as possible, no sophisticated undercarriage. Plus side is Lada's are pretty much bulletproof, you will always get from A to B.
@@NotAnonymousNo80014 oh hell yea, when I was in Russia some 5 years ago, I saw a commercial for Lada, I think it was Granta, it was around 6000 euro NEW. I wish we had those prices here..
@@SeattleMartin we could but unfortunately the EPA decided the only way to fight climate change is to make us all poor
This was an interesting test. I suspect that the greatest advantages of crosshatch honing are:
1) Increased oil-film adhesion resulting in reduced cylinder corrosion during long periods of storage.
2) Increased oil-film adhesion resulting in reduced cylinder scuffing during startup, after long periods of storage.
3) Reduced piston-ring friction resulting in greater power and fuel efficiency. Reduced friction is partly due to oil adhesion, and partly due to reduced contact area and normal force.
4) Reduced piston-ring friction resulting in reduced coolant temperatures.
The two angle cross hatch pattern has two purposes. The first is to provide lubrication to the rings. And the steeper angle causes the rings to rotate to keep the cylinder wearing evenly preventing premature wear.
Why do people offset the rings when installing just for first start on that engine? Asking because you mentioned the rings moving while running.
@@WhatsIncluded With an offset, gasses do not have a direct straight line to flow past the gaps, they do all spin a little, they don't spin the same amount, so after some time they would probably fix themselves at least a little, but it does help.
@@mikahandony7797 okay so it's not the end of the world if you don't because they will do it eventually.
If only we can test that theory I mean if I mark the position of the rings they better be in a different position then where I put em
The rings do not rotate when the engine is running.
The truth is somewhere in between.You first polish it and then hone.So the hone creates pockets (scratches ) for the oil to stay on the cylinder,but the actual surface where the rings ride is smooth(polished)
I never heard of a person wanting a mirror finish on cylinder walls. Usually when I see mirror finishe on cylinder wall the engines is worn out.
Oh yeah? What about Nikasil Chromium Bores? All of this work has been studied (in depth) by most Car & Motorcycle Manufacturers.
@@peterduxbury927 Still never heard of it
@@peterduxbury927 That's mostly a 2-stroke thing. I have never seen a 4-stroke with hard plating in the cylinder. (not saying they dont exist)
@@markchapman2585 Motorcycle engines. Ultra-high RPM.
@@peterduxbury927 nikasil bores are still honed for proper cross hatching.
I swear these guys can read minds... I was wondering exactly this yesterday while thinking about sleeveless alloy engines (like Briggs and Stratton Koolbore) requiring a mirror finish in order to not eat themselves to death. I think it's a 2 stroke trait though, whereas a 4 stroke requires the honing to hold oil on the walls.
A 2 stroke need an honed cylinder to hold oil just like a 4 stroke
@@pietrodiani6368 no they chrome plate most 2 cycle weedeaters smooth when the plating wears out it is toast
@@patrickday4206 that is not chrome plating. I think it's Nikasil on aluminum bloc. When the plating wears out, the block is not serviceable anymore.
That would make sense because you put oil in the mix for two stroke engines.
Sleeveless engines of aluminum rapidly wear the aluminum down but leave the harder silicon parts of the cylinder wall in place.
I'M A MECHANIC HERE, and I know of a problem that Audi suffered by making the cylinders with a mirror finish, the lack of honed caused excessive oil burning in the engine of the Audi A4 sedan, a friend of mine who worked at Audi spent almost a year reworking these engines, dismantling and grunting and assembling these cars,
and the results match the video demonstration, so it's decided that honed is necessary
The crosshatch eventually wears to a smooth surface mating the rings to match the smooth surface, That is when it is broken in.
@@midgetrace My dad's car with 250k miles still has it's cylinders honed in a cross pattern. Definitely went not away within breakin period, as they shouldn't
My Chevy 350 had 266k miles on it and when I took it to the shop they swore that there was no way it had more than 150k miles on it. Seven of the eight cylinders had the factory crosshatch and perfect compression. Only one was smooth on one side, where the head cracked and dumped coolant in the cylinder, thus the rebuild. All I did was regular oil changes with a good quality filter and high rated cheep oil every 3k.
Back in the early 90s, I did a ring job on a 4 cylinder engine that had stuck rings on one cylinder and a cracked piston in another I honed the cylinders and after a week of regular driving, I took it for a 350 mile round trip that took about 6 hours. That engine never used any oil after that. It used half a quart during break in and that was all it ever used during the time we had that car.
Honing for a combustion engine allows holding oil in the cylinder walls for better lubrication. Smooth walls are for Hydraulics to save the O rings for a longer life!! Been a mechanic for 45 years
Doesn't the oil just bet burned off by the ignition cycle?
@@michaelbirchall2247 yeah so does a 2 stroke engine you want a continuous oil film just like bathing your main bearings that's the whole concept! If you took an engine with a cross hatch pattern and took and ran total synthetic oil it would never break in! It would actually consume more oil that's why conventional break in oil is preferred then switch to synthetic oil latter . Those rings need seated in ..
Yes, rings need to be seated during the break-in period of an engine:
What happens during break-in
The break-in period, also known as run-in, is when a new piece of equipment is conditioned by running it for an initial period.
Why rings need to be seated
The rings need to be seated into the cylinder wall to create a compatible seal. This process ensures that the engine achieves maximum power output and consumes the least amount of oil.
How to seat the rings
The engine should be run under a load to increase cylinder pressure and force the rings into the bore. This can be achieved by gradually increasing the load from 50 to 75 percent, and eventually to 100 percent.
Tips for breaking in an engine
Avoid pushing the engine too hard.
Vary the engine load and rpm.
Don't keep the rpm at the same speed for more than a few seconds.
Lightly let off the gas pedal and gently get back on it.
A cross-hatch pattern on a cylinder bore can help with lubrication and engine performance, but the ideal angle depends on several factors:
Angle
A 45° cross-hatch angle is often considered ideal because the piston's upward motion spreads oil sideways to cover the entire cylinder wall. However, the ideal angle can vary depending on the ring tension, stroke length, and other factors. For example, long stroke engines may perform better with a 60° cross-hatch.
Too shallow
A cross-hatch angle that's too shallow can cause wear issues.
Too steep
A cross-hatch angle that's too steep can cause oil consumption, dry starts, and premature ring wear. Ring manufacturers typically recommend a cross-hatch angle of 22° to 32°.
Measuring
A protractor or business card can be used to check the cross-hatch angle. A Cross Hatch Angle Checking Tool can also be used to measure the angle.
Appearance
A freshly honed cylinder will look rough, while a used cylinder will have a "glazed" surface with little or no visible cross-hatch.
the honed cylinders had less deposits on the valve than the polished cylinders. i was aware that you want to hone cylinders before installing new rings for best results, but it's nice to see it confirmed.
It's the other way around actually.
Ofc I do trust honing is better for various reasons but 2 and 4 are polished and those are the clean ones
@@doopiejNope it's the opposite, as op said the honed ones are cleaner, check the start of the video: the cylinders marked -0.02 are the ones with mirror finish and check their position relative to the timing chain hole
I really like the off the wall ideas being put to test from this group!!
Seem some stuff that you'd never think would work actually work!
I bet this group can actually fix anything that thrown at them.
I'm convinced these guys have got to be burnt out from working on Ladas
Remove cylinder glazing, to add crosshatch, so rings can seat to the walls. Proven time and again.
Carbon deposits don't necessarily come from burning oil. Gasoline is a hyroCARBON fuel. Incomplete combustion can leave carbon deposits. Too little air can make the engine smoke, right? Love the video!
Honed and then smooth out the peaks always worked the best for me
Microscopic peaks?
Lol that's what break in is for
@@Skaadi89 Not if you're a professional lol. They use surface profilometers to measure the actual microscopic peaks and get the finish exactly how they want it. You don't want to have to break in a race engine cause now it's lost a bit more of it's already short life. You fire it up, check the tune, maybe check a two-step if you're drag racing, then you quickly shut it off. You want to run it as little as possible unless its actually racing.
works only on aluminium
@@FuckGoogle502I've never did a break in on any engine, new or my race engine, I guess just what u feel like, nothing better then brand new
Depends on the ring package more than anything else. For best performance (and will use some oil): Typical cylinder bore finish readings of Pro Stock or Comp Eliminator, or NASCAR engines are as follows: Rpk 4 to 6; Rk 18 to 22; Rvk 18 to 32
The look of those valves at the end of the video tell you everything you need to know.
Yeah I was gonna say, the only real results are in the heads
Enlighten us. What do we need to know?
@@rsemrad2 basically the smooth creates more carbon in the heads from the piston rings removing hundredths or thousandths of metal from the cylinder walls and themselves through contact. A smooth bore would allow equal distribution of pressure around the cylinders but momentum would mean the pistons have just enough wiggle room to touch the cylinder walls where as with a honed bore, you would have those pockets of unequal pressure filled with fluid and fluid is dynamic which means the pressure would force the oil into the low pressure pockets, thus creating a smaller area for pressure to build up and equalizing the pressure. In the smooth bore that pressure only sits in one area and is dispersed on the 3rd stroke instead of every stroke in the process. It means your rings will wear out faster and if there's blow by, then it's just as hard and as fast going the other direction as it is going in the intended direction
@@Unfoundrumorsas I understand it 2 and 4 are polished and those are the cleanest. 1 and 3 are honed and those are dirty
@@doopiej yes and as the brother explained, when your cylinders get hot enough, they’ll burn deposits away, which means those rings have a higher chance of failing in those cylinders
This is a valid concept. Very high performance engines are built to much tighter clearances but they are less cross-hatch and more polish. On the other hand, they are NOT daily drivers and will not start without a preheating of the oil and coolant, most of the time overnight.
What you want to look at is the piston rings.
Some claim that the mirror finish will make the oil scraped of. But the honed finish will make it stick.
The way ive been told about honong - you can only get so good of a machined finish. So adding in the cross hatching (in addition to letting it retain some oil during break in) allows the rings to essentially machine themselves to the cylinder - implying a mirror finish is what you're going for, but you'll never really achieve if you need specific tolerance
Your videos keep getting better and better. Thanks for your interesting ideas.
I think the differences have occured between the pistons because the honing and polishing was done by hand rather than on a machine. those slight variences are then multiplied by the thermo-cycling of the engine giving rise to those differences seen in the engine.
I was watching the hydraulic press channel, where they were showing some huge bearings. It would be cool to see you guys fit those to a Lada to make some kind of wheel for it.
The crosshatching is an actual score into the piston side- that little extra space where oil is not scraped away by the ring, even as the hieghtened edges of the score provide more surface area for better sealing.
I have a subconscious desire to buy Rolf products......
I had the same feeling.
Why?
@@paulhealey2984 not sure......
I knew the extention one because we did it at tech school. We put 16ft of extentions on a torque wrench and it was exactly where it should be.
On the other hand, I did not know about the anti-seize. That's really good to know.
great videos. just founds your channel, watched a couple videos. I like your style. Thorough, but not repetitive. great balance. nice work.
This is what I am talking about. Best channel for anything you can think of.
where did Vlad get that Ecto1 T-Shirt? its GREAT
Your guys do a fantastic job working on the engines you direct them to modify, I really like you and the channel, I wish there were as many old Ladas here in the USA, they seem to be really dependable reliable.
Honing is about durability not compression. It's main purpose is to create a film of oil under the piston rings in the valleys trapped.oil in Shiny cylinders will get wiped right away by piston rings.
I love seeing people from different nations enjoying the same hobbies. The internet is such a cool thing.
I’m enjoying your vids bud. Hello from America.
I guess it does matter on what type of rings you're using . But the 22 degrees (roughly) is important for proper oiling . But a standard nodular quick seater ring will have a hard time getting a seat on a polished wall texture, where as a chrome ring will be more at home with a polished surface . I figured 1 and three would have a better time with oil control . I built a lot of engines over the years though . Good work guys . :)
The scuffing allows the oil film to better adhere to the cylinder walls rather than collecting on the top ring to be burned and this test result proves it as the honed chambers are cleaner.
Now that self lubricating molybdenum rings have become standardized the moly fills in the scuffs creating a smooth bore hence the reason modern engines are consuming more oil but still last much longer between rebuilds like a diesel.
mirror means you need more pressure to the piston rings and chrome rings, thin oil with Additives, my favorite hBn
Then this engine will run great
Accurate piston ring gap on original assembly always made for good bedding in and good compression afterwards.
Always honed and used Graphene and good quality oil on the build. Running at 11:1 gapped slightly wider as she ran slightly hotter.
Aside from the Ford Pinto 2300, America never built a 4 banger as tough and reliable as a 50 year old Lada.
Yeah that 2.3 Ford is bulletproof. Chevy version not so much. Vega should have used the Ford 2.3 under license.
@@Dannysoutherner GM jumped the shark with that aluminum 140 cubic inch engine in the Vega. In 1976, they finally worked out the bugs and called it the Dura-Built 140 but, the car's reputation was toast at that point.
@@BlackPill-pu4vi I had a 77 Vega when I was a teen. It moved under its own power and price was right so it was a great car to me. Blew a head gasket, my fault. Fixed that and learned a lot along the way. My mom borrowed it one night and piled it up. Todays rolling iPhones I have no use for. Give me pre 90s any day.
@@BlackPill-pu4vi If they had put the Cosworth motor in ALL of them, they woulda had something.
@@JeffKopis Yes. The 2.0 Cosworth engine that did get put in the Vega has massive tuning potential. It was choked by the smog equipment of the time. Some car magazine (don't remember) desmogged a Cosworth Vega and that engine really woke up. New non-smog camshaft, fuel, timing, that engine's power really came out.
Honed creates micro pockets of oil held in the cylinder wall which is important for rings to obtain the most effective seal
That white Lada wagon is my dream car.
You are lucky, your dream car is easily achievable. For me it was the opposite because they only built 400 of my dream car. and it cost me waay more than its worth to get it here I even had to ship it from another country/continent. If I can do it so can you.
You need better dreams.
@@davidgalea6113 what was you dream car
The polished cylinders will probably need around 10,000Km before rings seat properly.
Honed cylinders will bed in rings faster plus, the 'scratches' allow an oil film to lubricate rings.
ROLF engine oil is just Castrol GTX with a different name, Buy Rolf and keep your engine running good 👍🏻
Rotella t6 with 10% Lucas stabilizer
@@Dronohthrow that Lucas crap in the bin and just use fully synthetic oil. Modern cars don't like that thick goopy crap in their veins especially with the vvt engines and small bearing tolerances that Lucas stabilizer is just too thick. Might help an old ( pre 2000s) engine but keep that crap out of a modern engine.
Son of a shappard
The honing holds a small amount of oil in the crosshatching.
Compression is maintained with this.
As in when loss of compression due to worn rings adding oil increases compression.
where do people ask such a question? a cylinder with a miror finsh will not keep oil in place on the cylinders walls, where a honed finish will be absolutely perfect to keep oil on the cylinders walls and also to keep a good compression ratio (this need has been discovered more than 120 years ago)
Once break in the honning gets errased after enough miles 10kto 20k miles, so the supposed effect of oil staying on the honning marks is not forever, its mostly to give an evenly round shape to the cylinder wall.
most modern engine manufactures like Ford Nissan VW .....run mirror like finish bore, are you 120 years OLD?
LOL 🤣
@@vaninec It's still honed with a crosshatch, it's just 600 grit vs 240 grit. It's still a plateau hone, you still want those oil valleys and not too many peaks.
@@SG-wp6sg my car had over 260k km when i did the headgasket and still had its factory hone.
Honing only wears out if the engine is run with bad oil
@@rolandotillit2867
What is 600 grit in mm?
I've twice deglazed/honed motorcycle engines by hand with sandpaper. 100 grit perhaps.
Quick to break in and never had any oil blowby. Just worked it at that same 40/45 deg angle. FWIW.
How about blow by? Maybe more on the smooth cylinders.
I learned the honed finish inside cylinders is mainly done because a honed cylinderwall better retains oil. Also reduces friction because at any point in time there is less contact surface between the piston rings and the cylinder walls. Similar concept to scraped glide surfaces on metal working machines. For compression it would be best to have microscopically polished walls and rings but then again that makes it hard for oil to stick and keep a nice film of oil all the time. Modern engines have coated cylinder walls with micro porosity. Very similar to diamond and it retains oil very nicely for very low friction and wear resistance.
You should keep this one going as a long term test, im curiours to see how it fares over the long haul.
Dont support sexual changes, support ppl accepting how they were born. Thats what gender affirmation should be, not the inverted and harmful meaning deceptive ones use.
At least 10000km to get a conclusive result
Nobody asked you, and if they did they're likely also extremely ill.
..avatar pic..
Leave the kids alone!
@@carwashadamcooper1538uh oh grandpa found the computer again
@@carwashadamcooper1538 Nobody asked for that negativity either but here we are.
the mirror finish seen in some high-end engines is because of the different material not the machining process. mostly used on alloy blocks and diesel engines. the mirror finish bores are the result of molten steel alloy sprayed on the bore. this reduces ring to bore friction. the ring style and composition is also very different.
For 2 stroke, smooth cylinder can blow the sh*t out the engine or stuck it
Few years ago a guy on Moped Army had his bore plasma coated. Never found out how it turned out, though.
@@ItsDaJax This I'd be interested too see
@@adrianhoeben5783 He did it for heat retention, that's all I can remember. Plasma coating things has been in my head since then.
Honed is good for break in as it's rough and allows for a custom piston ring fit and better compression faster thus isolating wear to the rings, you also use break in oil to do this for a small amount of miles. After you switch to normal oil.
Polished I can see less resistance overall and a break in oil could still be used and logically speaking it may take longer but once the rings break in and you switch oils it should allow for a smoother run engine with minimal drag, but the difference would be very minimal as either engine with wear a pattern into the cylinder walls but on honed the rings will be formed faster but have more overall wear... Engine wise break in is the most crucial time and reducing the time spent in it is ideal(just like warm ups daily).
I've rebuilt my race engine a few times and I think break in oil is a scam, just like I feel 8f warm up times being shorter us the goal, a moderate throttle run warms up the engine faster than a low load warm up and thus you get into efficiency faster.
Honed vs mirror, I'd say mirror would be best if you drive a longer break in period while honed you drive much less and change oil.
Either should be the same once you change oil to a good synthetic with plenty of zddp.
Ladas love them tough cars 👍Work on a lot of them in the day .
shame theres none left in the UK and RHD
@@petelattimer6808 The Fiat 125 or the polska were the same in fact the Lada was base on them in Spain it was the saet.
I think you could record the bore measurements and see if and how they change, also if you have oil analysis anywhere you can see if it's also causing more wear in the engine. This was really cool to see the compression ratios go up as they start to seat with the walls. I wonder if oil temp gauges could show with a different bore finish
The reason for the rough finish is to fit the rings to the cylinder. The rings will then polish the cylinders to a smooth finish.
Im afraid if you have polished bores it’s either, poor quality lube oil and or very high hrs of operation. Smooth bores usually come with high oil consumption and poor emissions (smoke)
Wellll, hone finish depends on the ring material. In the 1960s chrome plated rings were common. These required a fairly coarse cylinder wall finish to enable the rings to wear into the cylinder walls. On initial startup the friction was high and it may take 30.000km for the engine to break in. Then we progressed to a molybdenum infill in the top ring face. This required a smoother cylinder finish applied using finer grit stones. Now cylinder walls are initially honed with diamond stones of about 400 grit to about 0.0003" from final size. Then 800 grit stones are installed and 5 or 6 strokes are made to knock the high spots off the cylinder walls. The rings and piston skirts ride on the flat surfaces left while the deeper scratches hold oil to lube the skirts and rings.
I think these guys have to allow at least 500 miles to seat the rings. They must be bored because this video is really obvious. Any engine I have overhauled was hand honed in my.garage. never had a problem and my engines always ran great, well, except my first few. Lol
Check piston ring gap, check valve guide wear and value seats for 3 angle valve grind, check valve spring tension, check rocker valve tappet clearance, check head surface for straightness. Check block deck for straightness
Can you make a rotary valve head the fits a standard lada engine block?
The only engine where you do not hone the cylinders are those with plated cylinder bores like Nikasil etc because the silicon carbides used can never be effectiely cleaned out causing the bits of nikasil to embed in the piston skirts causing excessive wear down the road.
There is a reason that after honing you first wash with a detergent then wipe with many clean white rags soaked in engine oil and you will be amazed at the metal that comes out of the bore, Does not work anywhere as effectively with plated nikasil type bores.
Great work, thanks for sharing! What kind of vehicle is that, I love the look but it needs a performance V8! Do they make a 2 door version of that vehicle?
The fuel used is a big factor when it comes to the carbon buildup as well. The carburetor maybe running rich as well. Put 5km on the engine then recheck for the compression, oil consumption, and carbon buildup. Also check for even heating and cooling in the block. You may have cold spots or hot spots in the head and block
I always loved the shape of the Lada estate!
You need texture is like fine sandpaper that sands new rings into the perfect unique shape for a perfect seal. Even a new blueprinted engine finishes the machining as its running.
What rings were used? If they are cast it wont matter. If they were chrome then yes they need help seating.
Cast rings, plasmoly, chrome or ductile, they all need a honed surface, between 180-480 grit stones.
There was a Fascinating video the other day on daves auto Centre TH-cam channel where they had a guy on discussing this exact topic. He's a specialist in the field and scan the bore after honing to see how many troughs it has for oil!
5:48 i thought it was 8?
Right.
The hone marks or scratches hold small amounts of oil for lubrication and also help wear the new rings to exactly match the shape of the cylinder. A new engine would come with its cylinders finish honed, if that was a bad thing to do, the engine manufacturers would not do it. Keep in mind there are different grit honing stones, a less course stone is preferred for finish honing.
What Meeeearrhhh Finish ¿¿¿¿
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It need to be honed, because of the lubrication, the oil settle down in the small grooves. It prevents the oil Film from ripping off. So it saves your engine from an early death.
Honed has that grip for oil to stick too, smooth has no grip for the oil.
Smooth is excellent when 2 surfaces are rubbing, pressurize some oil through there and the oil becomes a boundary layer between the metal surfaces.
Cylinder wall has no pressurized oil being squeezed between it and the piston, so oil scraper rings and a sticky honed cylinder wall is required to keep oil there.
If ya wanna burn out your engine, go smooth
The honning surface is not forever, after 10 to 20 k miles it gets glass mirror
@SG-wp6sg it'll never go to being a glass surface, specially on the thrust side. It's just that the marks are more vertical than horizontal which won't hold oil as well.
@@SG-wp6sg I have seen higher mileage engines with the cross hatch still present…
Only 2x very important reasons that I know for honing the cylinder, with new piston rings, 1= the honing in "cross hatching" patterns will wear the new piston rings into the exact shape of the cylinder, taking the rough casting edges off the rings to seal up and give better compression. 2= the honing in a cross hatching pattern will always pick up and keep oil on the cylinder, giving better lubrication and less friction and wear. but otherwise the mirror finish would be awesome if the rings were ground and polished to fit the newly machined bore exactly, like formula one engines.
I believe that the angles created by the honing helps turn the rings so they don't get stuck over time.
I know when I used to race the flathead Briggs & Stratton engines in go-kart racing We done a mirror finish..They would use oil but it didn't matter because it got changed after hot laps and then after the main race.. those guys claimed the engines would spin up quicker and turn more RPM.. and to help the compression seal they would drill gas ports in the top of the piston.. seem to work well..
Hi, can you please explain a bit more about drilling gas ports in the top of the pistons and how it helps compression seal?
@@herseem they are very tiny holes in piston top where the inside ring edge would be . Theory of combustion gas pressing the rings out and sealing better .
Flexhoned bores / wet liners , all plain bearing surfaces Will,s ring sealed combustion chambers .four into one self bent exhaust system 1 -1/2 " primaries . sounded glorious like a mini Cosworth DFV.
Rolls Royce hones their cylinder and tosses them out into the back yard for a year or two, allowing for rust pitting which, after a fresh hone, will allow oil to much more reliably protect the cylinder walls.
they did that with the bodyshells too in the 70s absolute pos
In the 70s a race engine designer told me he buried cylinders in soil outside for a year before machining
@jagmarc yes, that's correct. Burying the engine block removes the casting tensions.
You're very close to plateau honing there. Where you do a deep crosshatch followed by a much finer grit. Holds oil for lubrication but doesn't have the pointy tops to burr over, beds in faster and seals better.
Ok...Honing and ridge reamer ready...Semi Retired Mobile Mechanic/ Ex Street Racer..Combo of Tech Factory/Aftermarket/Promachist Shops is a great set of knowledge..Study all....
A mirrored surface is never preferable over honed. Whoever said that is wrong. Honed cylinders provides a lubricating ring surface, where a smooth surface prevents oil from clinging to the cylinders. Honed cylinders are like tiny oil pockets that rings use to glide on. Honed cylinders seat the rings, prevents the rings from breaking because they're being lubricated. With a smooth bore, the oil film is reduced creating higher friction, possible ring breakage and wear is increased. Always hone cylinders in any engine.
Love your videos, quite entertaining while challenging my intellect. Keep them coming. Blessings from America
Honing also added benefit to allow oil to dwell in aid of lubrication not just about sealing rings.
Vacuum leak causes the shake in the engine, yes I do believe the compression test, less friction, less cutting by the rings on the polished cylinders, but they will allow oil to pass by the rings on the highly polished cylinders. Increased compression because of less ring groves cut into the rings and cylinders.
Rings will never seat with shiny finish. Usually your ring maker will say what hone to use. After watching, actually I am pretty impressed. Wonder how it would do long term.
My old mechanic used to dump VIM abrasive cleaner through the carby to rough up the polished cylinder walls on the new Ford Falcons in Australia 🇦🇺 in the 70ties.
@@chrisczarnik3439 OUCH!!!!!! I guess it was job security.
This is a great learning experience. I always understood the swirls were to help hold oil. I am very curious what you come up with
There’s a good reason we keep the engine’s and engine bay spotlessly clean in racing. If oil appears on anything we know where it is coming from leaks or spray. It’s all instantly apparent.
Why not steam clean everything under the bonnet it’s cleaner to work on too. The last time I polished a cylinder by hand.
I was 11 years old and knew no better it was on my 125 motocross bike.
The only saving grace was I probably I didn’t do that good of a job. Honing traps minuet amounts of oil and stops wear on start up a tiny bit of
2-stroke in the fuel world be a good idea if you intend to polish the cylinders. I get why you would want to do it. Less friction equals a cooler engine so you can raise the Rev limiter and get more brake horsepower.
But you become more reliant on the lube and would need to warm up the engine carefully. Because of the expansion and less cylinder surface oil Interesting
I’d like to know what is the fuel. 98 octane. Or E5 E10 fuel. Does it have detergents or octane boosters maybe stabilisers. Scratching the surface. I would have tested with two different cylinder blocks took dyno readings after 1500 miles and then checked for wear. I think out of the two the polished would be best performance but show wear. And the honed slightly less performance but would have longevity. And that’s why the motor industry does it that way. But well done proper mechanics.
The honed cylinders seem to be using less oil, but I think it's because they "broke in" more quickly. The mirror finish cylinders don't seat the rings quite as quickly. Those cylinders need a longer break-in period, perhaps, 5,000 kilometers to break in, because of the less abrasive finish. The rings will eventually polish the honed cylinders, so in the long run, it doesn't make a difference.
The differences in compression can be the result of valve clearance, or, a worn camshaft. Differences in valve closure timing make a huge difference at cranking speed. Loosening the valve clearances will increase compression significantly.
I had an idea over 50 years ago, replace the cam with pneumatic lifters. The first engine I rebuilt was a 2 stroke. I used to turn it by hand to see what was going on. Next I did a Honda XL250 motor with a four valve head. I put a higher lift cam in and again turned it over by hand to watch the valves. I was surprised how much resistance the valve gear causes. Also, while learning about cam profiles I began understood how they affect ridaability. That's when I thought about pnuematics. Not only would you be able to change characteristics (this was a long time ago, with modern chips and sensors this idea is even better) but you would lose a heap of internal resistance, especially with a multi cam, high lift, stronger valve spring motor. It would spin up like a 2 stroke.
I never got anyone interested enough to help me build it, and now I see Christian Keonigsegg has got a team called freevalve using a similar idea on a Saab.
Do you think you can make it?
I noticed how much load the valve gear placed on an engine when I was driving my girlfriend's 2.0 pinto-engined Capri and the timing belt failed. When I tried to start the engine (in the middle of a yellow box junction of course) it turned over so quickly that the noise it made was so different I wondered what was going on. At first I thought the starter motor was missing the ring gear, but once we'd pushed it out of the way and looked under the bonnet, it all became clear. I had a high-performance Allegro project going on at the time, but my next project will be a super-mild cam, rev-limited to half the normal maximum revs and with super-soft springs at half normal strength, with only two of the four valves per cylinder in use. This should use much less fuel and will be configured to idle at a much lower speed and should be a super-economical town car. As it's so infrequent that I ever have felt the need to go over 3500 revs, I should be able to still drive like normal but get better performance with less fuel.
Interesting idea👍
Try a small carby, I’ve seen some experimenting 👍
The honed cylinders allow for oil to remain in the very small grooves protecting the tv walls and rings. That’s it’s primary function. The mirror cylinder would be theoretically capable of a better seal but the friction would increase wear and shorten the life of the parts.
Edit out the “tv”…. Don’t know how that got in there.
I really enjoyed this episode , the little more real life and character development will make it even more enjoyble.
On newer engines, with fancy materials on the cylinder walls, you use much finer abrasives to hone. Old school iron, you'd rough up the walls with like 120 grit and finish with 240, new school you're roughing up with 400, and finishing with 600 or more.
We went to 600 on circle track engines 25 years ago and gained an instant 11 HP on a spec 350 SBC.
@@hotrodray6802 Fuckin' nice!
@@hotrodray6802 Yeah, it seals better with a finer finish, at the expense of engine life. Course, a race engine isn't supposed to last forever.
Smooth Cylinders = Rubber Seals, tight seal... great for break cylinders.
Honed Cylinders = Metal Rings, traps lube for longer... Better for engine
Mirror finish has the potential to not have enough lubrication and therefore make you lose compression because air can get around the rings easier.
Cylinders with higher compression will run leaner and hotter so hence the cleaner exhaust valve.
Did you notice that they measured compression pressure and it didn't match with the burn deposit on the exhaust valve?