For those wondering, the Tonale PHEV gets a $7,500 tax credit for those leasing the vehicle! Not otherwise as it doesn't meet the US production requirements.
I think one source of confusion is whether or not you can actually drive in electric only mode (when charged). The PHEV needs to have something close to 100 Hp (about 75 kW) in the electric motor(s) in order to be able to be driven (around town) without the gasoline engine cutting in. The other thing is that the PHEV needs to be built to allow you to drive in electric only. This means the way the throttle is engineered - some PHEV vehicles will start the gasoline engine as soon as you press the accelerator pedal down. As you mentioned, the electric only range must be enough for the driver's typical use case. I seem to recall there are some PHEV vehicles that have DC Fast Charging capability (although not particularly fast). What scares me is the complexity. It might be something to lease for two or three years.
The acceleration times for some PHEV's can be impressive, but once the battery drains, you're left with just the power of the gas engine. That's adequate for steady driving but passing etc. will suddenly be slower and must be taken into account. For my driving, pure EV is the simplest solution.
I briefly looked into getting a PHEV two years ago, but decided against it, once I realized that for the cost of a Prius Prime, I could just buy a Chevy Bolt instead. I walk to work, so most of my driving is not daily trips around town, but recreational trips into the mountains, most of them in the 100-200 range for the round trip. That means the Bolt completes the vast majority of my trips without requiring any charging, but a PHEV would still be mostly running on gas and need to fuel up. Even on those rare occasions when I do drive further and need to charge the Bolt, I still spend less time per year waiting at chargers than a PHEV would require pumping gas and waiting for oil changes.
I think you may have been a bit BEV biased. I have a RAV4 Prime that gets over 55 mi electric range in the summer and 45 mi in the Ohio winters. Can be driven in all EV mode during my 40+ daily commute to the point that I haven’t filled up with gas for 2 months. I am able to charge easily in my garage with 110 outlet overnight. Plenty of power and on long road trips average approximately40 mpg just slightly less than the regular RAV 4 hybrid. It may be a transitional vehicle till BEVs are mandatory but seems like the best of both worlds till then. Long trips are not a problem( I have 25,000 mi on my not quite 2 yr old vehicle) and do not take extra hours of charging or planning and no range anxiety or concern. It is less expensive than the car you are showing in this video. One problem is the long wait to purchase these cars as they are quite popular. Just MHO
Went to my uncle's funeral in Pennsylvania...I live in NY...380 round trip in one day...Church didn't have a charging station, restaurant didn't have a charging station. Left my Tesla home...Took my Giulia Quadrifoglio....
I drive a Tesla Model Y now, but my first step into vehicle electrification was the humble Toyota Prius, and later the Chevrolet Volt. I think hybrids and plug-in hybrids still have a role to play, because there are lots of people who may want to save on gas, but can't plug in reliably, such as people who live in apartments and those who only have side street parking available. Public DC fast chargers, even Tesla's ever expanding Supercharger network, still doesn't provide nearly enough places to charge. And in many parts of the US, there just isn't a lot of public charging options available, and in some cases the few that are available are often broken, so that makes full fledged EV's impractical for many people who can't charge at home or work. Hybrids and PHEV's are nice because while they do have a gas engine, it normally doesn't run nearly as often as it would if it were strictly a gas car. For instance, my Prius could have 100k miles on it, but only 75k miles on the engine because the other 25k was done entirely on electric since I learned the term "hypermiling" where you try to use the least amount of gas possible whenever driving it. In my 2017 Volt, it was rated for 53 miles of electric, and 42 mpg on gas. In the real world, this translated to 68 miles on electric, and 40 miles on electric in winter with snow tires and heater usage. GM's Voltec plug-in hybrid technology was really good for what it was designed for. It had a powerful enough motor that so long as the car had a charge, would be as electric as a Tesla. It didn't turn the engine on even if you were going full pedal to the metal. It covered my 38 mile round trip commute just fine, and for longer trips I just simply used gas as needed, or if I forgot to plug it in the previous day. The only real downsides I saw was that it was a small car and had cramped space in the back, which is unfortunately a compromise that you guys did talk about. But it was also a hatchback so had a surprisingly decent amount of cargo space for its size. And it's a shame GM killed it off rather than putting it in a bigger vehicle that might've proved to be more popular, such as the Equinox or Silverado. One of your future videos should discuss more affordable hybrids and PHEV's, such as the Toyota Prius/Prius Prime. Not everyone is going to have $50-60k to blow on a car, whether it's electric, PHEV or even just a regular gas guzzler. But they may be willing to take a look and test drive of the new Gen 5 Prius.
I had a 2014 i3 with a REX. I've always been baffled why that kind of plug in hybrid never caught on. 60 mile range, an electric drive train, small generator. Totally useable for daily driving in all electric mode and totally useable for road trips even if there is not charging infrastructure.
A problem with some plugin hybrids is that they have the same transmission for engine and electric motor. You feel the loss of power ever time they charge gear. Then there's few hybrids where you can't use cabin heater without ICE, because they only scavenges vaste heat from the engine. About rapid charging hybrid: that makes less sense, as you mentioned the cost, but also because the battery is so small, there's a limit to how fast they could charge. Probably not significantly mor than the AC charging speed.
I have driven a Tesla Model 3 LR for the past 3 years and it has worked very well. I live in Ontario, Canada and long trips have been zero problem using the Tesla Supercharging network. Problem is that I really would like to get back into a German high-end again for the build quality, quiet ride and creature comforts. Something like the Audi Q8 E-tron, Mercedes EQE 500 SUV, or BMW iX xDrive 50 would be nice, BUT any car that has to use the CCS DCFC network is a no-go for me as that network really sucks here in Canada. I am just net prepared to deal with the frustrations involved in needing to rely on it for long distance travel. Hopefully the conversion to NACS takes place, but that will take at least another 2-3 years to get sorted out. So, if I don't want another Tesla, at this point, and any non-Tesla is off the table, I either have to go back to gas or find a worthy PHEV. One that is high-end, has at least 40 miles of EV-only range, has AWD for our winters and also has around 5 seconds 0-60 type of performance. A BMW X5 50e seems like to best option so far.
I would argue that fast charging at home is more important if you have an EV with 60-100 mile range, rather than 200-300 mile range. You possibly want to add some range to the small battery as quickly as possible, after a day almost depleating it, in case you have do do an unplanned trip. If you have a large battery, after a day driving 100 miles, you still have a lot remaining, in case of unplanned events, but charging slowly over night will afer a few days with averag driving and a few nigts charging enough for an average day and some, then you'll be fully charged again after a week, while all the time having a fairly big buffer for emergency.
I ran a UK spec 2018 Mini Countryman PHEV for 2 years, the petrol engine was a 3 cylinder turbo 1.5lt and was wonderfully smooth and fairly quiet but el trip mode was hugely disappointing, especially the electric only range that was declared at 28 miles but in reality was 22 miles in summer and around 12 in winter. Fuel economy in petrol only mode was dire, way less than I was led to believe. I got rid of it and went back to a big turbo diesel Range Rover Sport. Now I have a BEV Mini Cooper S E - it’s brilliant even with a small battery by most standards I’ve never had a problem with winter range and was able to do a 90 miles round trip and returned home with 15% battery when I expected turtle mode! I don’t need vast distance range as I’m retired and have another car that has a 650 mile range on diesel if I need to go longer trips. Thing on running costs - to do my usual every 2nd day 32 mile round trip to the nearest hood shops costs me £0.60 for off peak electricity or £0.00 when I charge off my solar panels in the Mini Cooper S E, in the diesel the same run costs £7.20 to burn fossils
Not all PHEVs are created equal. The Chrysler Pacifica (Plug-In) Hybrid is a good design. It has 33 miles of EV range, recharges in just over 2 hours with an appropriate Level 2 changer and gets the best ICE minivan milage (30 mpg). Plus it gets the full IRA tax credit (no leasing required) of $7500 plus many State rebates too. Acceleration is very good because the ICE drives the wheels and creates electricity for the Motor to drives the wheels. It's got good get-up-and-go at Freeway speeds.
PHEV were a good idea 10 years ago. EVs are are just flat out better in all aspects. A PHEV, you are carrying around heavy batteries, and gallons of gas. Like you guys said, you have to maintain both engines. Just go full battery.
@@RichardJoashTan The point I am making is in a PHEV you are carrying 2 types of "engines" and only using one at any giving time. When using the battery, you are lugging around gas and parts you are not using. When using the ICE, you are not using the batteries. Just pick one, not both.
I think a lot of the people that PHEVs are marketed too are people who don't follow this channel and still think of full EVs as they were 10 years ago. Even if most of them actually could do just fine in a full EV, it may be easier for the car salesman to just sell them a PHEV than to convince them of this. Once we reach the point, where virtually everyone at least knows somebody who drives a full EV, even if they don't themselves, the number of people in this group will start to shrink fast.
PIHs might bring people to EVs by giving a taste of driving electric. For me, I would always be trying to get every last mile out of my charge before the car goes to ICE. That would naturally lead me to an EV where I could get big miles all electric!
PHEV's are great for many uses for most people. Yesteryears Chev Volt was one of the best with up to 70 miles of electric range depending on use.......having said that a PHEV with 15 miles is a bit of a waste of money.
@tkmedia3866 technically you are right, but isn't that what all if them should be. I kept my 2019 premier Volt and still drive it, my other ride is a 2023 ID.4 awd pro. I enjoy both.
It would be interesting to do a full range test utilizing it to it's most efficient and price of use compared to a similar full ev. If the technology could improve over the next few years because it seems Toyota are still banging on about not committing to bev. So they will be about for a long time going forward ( Stupid in my opinion but still )
But smart for me because I will buy a fully loaded 2023 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV anyway. Besides, battery electric cars are dumber than the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV because it is the best selling Plug In Hybrid in the world.
In Norway they are called fake hybrides! They say that you can drive with just electric. But, try to drive it without any gas in the tank. You can't, so it's just fake.
A Tesla Model Y requires 30 tons of earth to be excavated for the lithium required for it’s battery while a PHEV requires about 4 tons of earth to be excavated for it’s battery. In other words one could build about 8 gas saving PHEV’s for every Model Y. According to Consumer Reports the most reliable cars on the road are not EV’s but their lesser sister gas saving hybrids for which you could build nearly 50 vehicle lithium batteries compared to a Tesla Model Y. Hybrids require no charging, no range anxiety, less mining and reliability. I get the fandom with EV’s but if we are serious about climate change getting 80% of drivers in a hybrid compared to less than 10% in EV’s is the way to go.
The problem with PHEV's, at least from what I've seen from the few people I know who have bought one, is that they straight up never plug them in. I know someone who bought a new Wrangler Rubicon 4XE because the dealer was able to make it cheaper than the one she initially wanted thanks to incentives, she didn't know you could plug them in, and even after telling her, she never does because "it only goes like 30 miles anyway so why would I bother". It's infuriating.
Don’t forget when doing this moving earth thing that gas vehicles also need a lot of minerals to be mined to make the catalysts for refining gasoline/ diesel and to make the catalytic converter, they are not innocent of mining minerals
I think you may have been a bit BEV biased. I have a RAV4 Prime that gets over 55 mi electric range in the summer and 45 mi in the Ohio winters. Can be driven in all EV mode during my 40+ daily commute to the point that I haven’t filled up with gas for 2 months. I am able to charge easily in my garage with 110 outlet overnight. Plenty of power and on long road trips average approximately40 mpg just slightly less than the regular RAV 4 hybrid. It may be a transitional vehicle till BEVs are mandatory but seems like the best of both worlds till then. Long trips are not a problem( I have 25,000 mi on my not quite 2 yr old vehicle) and do not take extra hours of charging or planning and no range anxiety or concern. It is less expensive than the car you are showing in this video. One problem is the long wait to purchase these cars as they are quite popular. Just MHO
For those wondering, the Tonale PHEV gets a $7,500 tax credit for those leasing the vehicle! Not otherwise as it doesn't meet the US production requirements.
I think one source of confusion is whether or not you can actually drive in electric only mode (when charged). The PHEV needs to have something close to 100 Hp (about 75 kW) in the electric motor(s) in order to be able to be driven (around town) without the gasoline engine cutting in. The other thing is that the PHEV needs to be built to allow you to drive in electric only. This means the way the throttle is engineered - some PHEV vehicles will start the gasoline engine as soon as you press the accelerator pedal down. As you mentioned, the electric only range must be enough for the driver's typical use case. I seem to recall there are some PHEV vehicles that have DC Fast Charging capability (although not particularly fast). What scares me is the complexity. It might be something to lease for two or three years.
they just repeating the same thing over and over again... Plus Tonale setup like Volvo 40, there is no driveshalf.
The acceleration times for some PHEV's can be impressive, but once the battery drains, you're left with just the power of the gas engine. That's adequate for steady driving but passing etc. will suddenly be slower and must be taken into account.
For my driving, pure EV is the simplest solution.
I briefly looked into getting a PHEV two years ago, but decided against it, once I realized that for the cost of a Prius Prime, I could just buy a Chevy Bolt instead.
I walk to work, so most of my driving is not daily trips around town, but recreational trips into the mountains, most of them in the 100-200 range for the round trip. That means the Bolt completes the vast majority of my trips without requiring any charging, but a PHEV would still be mostly running on gas and need to fuel up. Even on those rare occasions when I do drive further and need to charge the Bolt, I still spend less time per year waiting at chargers than a PHEV would require pumping gas and waiting for oil changes.
We want to know if u don't charge the vehicle what mode or how bad is it for the car to just run straight gas?
I think you may have been a bit BEV biased. I have a RAV4 Prime that gets over 55 mi electric range in the summer and 45 mi in the Ohio winters. Can be driven in all EV mode during my 40+ daily commute to the point that I haven’t filled up with gas for 2 months. I am able to charge easily in my garage with 110 outlet overnight. Plenty of power and on long road trips average approximately40 mpg just slightly less than the regular RAV 4 hybrid. It may be a transitional vehicle till BEVs are mandatory but seems like the best of both worlds till then. Long trips are not a problem( I have 25,000 mi on my not quite 2 yr old vehicle) and do not take extra hours of charging or planning and no range anxiety or concern. It is less expensive than the car you are showing in this video. One problem is the long wait to purchase these cars as they are quite popular.
Just MHO
Went to my uncle's funeral in Pennsylvania...I live in NY...380 round trip in one day...Church didn't have a charging station, restaurant didn't have a charging station. Left my Tesla home...Took my Giulia Quadrifoglio....
I drive a Tesla Model Y now, but my first step into vehicle electrification was the humble Toyota Prius, and later the Chevrolet Volt. I think hybrids and plug-in hybrids still have a role to play, because there are lots of people who may want to save on gas, but can't plug in reliably, such as people who live in apartments and those who only have side street parking available.
Public DC fast chargers, even Tesla's ever expanding Supercharger network, still doesn't provide nearly enough places to charge. And in many parts of the US, there just isn't a lot of public charging options available, and in some cases the few that are available are often broken, so that makes full fledged EV's impractical for many people who can't charge at home or work.
Hybrids and PHEV's are nice because while they do have a gas engine, it normally doesn't run nearly as often as it would if it were strictly a gas car. For instance, my Prius could have 100k miles on it, but only 75k miles on the engine because the other 25k was done entirely on electric since I learned the term "hypermiling" where you try to use the least amount of gas possible whenever driving it.
In my 2017 Volt, it was rated for 53 miles of electric, and 42 mpg on gas. In the real world, this translated to 68 miles on electric, and 40 miles on electric in winter with snow tires and heater usage. GM's Voltec plug-in hybrid technology was really good for what it was designed for. It had a powerful enough motor that so long as the car had a charge, would be as electric as a Tesla. It didn't turn the engine on even if you were going full pedal to the metal.
It covered my 38 mile round trip commute just fine, and for longer trips I just simply used gas as needed, or if I forgot to plug it in the previous day.
The only real downsides I saw was that it was a small car and had cramped space in the back, which is unfortunately a compromise that you guys did talk about. But it was also a hatchback so had a surprisingly decent amount of cargo space for its size. And it's a shame GM killed it off rather than putting it in a bigger vehicle that might've proved to be more popular, such as the Equinox or Silverado.
One of your future videos should discuss more affordable hybrids and PHEV's, such as the Toyota Prius/Prius Prime. Not everyone is going to have $50-60k to blow on a car, whether it's electric, PHEV or even just a regular gas guzzler. But they may be willing to take a look and test drive of the new Gen 5 Prius.
I had a 2014 i3 with a REX. I've always been baffled why that kind of plug in hybrid never caught on. 60 mile range, an electric drive train, small generator. Totally useable for daily driving in all electric mode and totally useable for road trips even if there is not charging infrastructure.
A problem with some plugin hybrids is that they have the same transmission for engine and electric motor. You feel the loss of power ever time they charge gear.
Then there's few hybrids where you can't use cabin heater without ICE, because they only scavenges vaste heat from the engine.
About rapid charging hybrid: that makes less sense, as you mentioned the cost, but also because the battery is so small, there's a limit to how fast they could charge. Probably not significantly mor than the AC charging speed.
I have driven a Tesla Model 3 LR for the past 3 years and it has worked very well. I live in Ontario, Canada and long trips have been zero problem using the Tesla Supercharging network. Problem is that I really would like to get back into a German high-end again for the build quality, quiet ride and creature comforts. Something like the Audi Q8 E-tron, Mercedes EQE 500 SUV, or BMW iX xDrive 50 would be nice, BUT any car that has to use the CCS DCFC network is a no-go for me as that network really sucks here in Canada. I am just net prepared to deal with the frustrations involved in needing to rely on it for long distance travel. Hopefully the conversion to NACS takes place, but that will take at least another 2-3 years to get sorted out. So, if I don't want another Tesla, at this point, and any non-Tesla is off the table, I either have to go back to gas or find a worthy PHEV. One that is high-end, has at least 40 miles of EV-only range, has AWD for our winters and also has around 5 seconds 0-60 type of performance. A BMW X5 50e seems like to best option so far.
I would argue that fast charging at home is more important if you have an EV with 60-100 mile range, rather than 200-300 mile range.
You possibly want to add some range to the small battery as quickly as possible, after a day almost depleating it, in case you have do do an unplanned trip.
If you have a large battery, after a day driving 100 miles, you still have a lot remaining, in case of unplanned events, but charging slowly over night will afer a few days with averag driving and a few nigts charging enough for an average day and some, then you'll be fully charged again after a week, while all the time having a fairly big buffer for emergency.
I ran a UK spec 2018 Mini Countryman PHEV for 2 years, the petrol engine was a 3 cylinder turbo 1.5lt and was wonderfully smooth and fairly quiet but el trip mode was hugely disappointing, especially the electric only range that was declared at 28 miles but in reality was 22 miles in summer and around 12 in winter. Fuel economy in petrol only mode was dire, way less than I was led to believe. I got rid of it and went back to a big turbo diesel Range Rover Sport. Now I have a BEV Mini Cooper S E - it’s brilliant even with a small battery by most standards I’ve never had a problem with winter range and was able to do a 90 miles round trip and returned home with 15% battery when I expected turtle mode! I don’t need vast distance range as I’m retired and have another car that has a 650 mile range on diesel if I need to go longer trips. Thing on running costs - to do my usual every 2nd day 32 mile round trip to the nearest hood shops costs me £0.60 for off peak electricity or £0.00 when I charge off my solar panels in the Mini Cooper S E, in the diesel the same run costs £7.20 to burn fossils
will regenerative braking recharge the battery
Yes. But you won't notice a significant amount of gain unless you're going down a long mountain road.
Not all PHEVs are created equal. The Chrysler Pacifica (Plug-In) Hybrid is a good design. It has 33 miles of EV range, recharges in just over 2 hours with an appropriate Level 2 changer and gets the best ICE minivan milage (30 mpg). Plus it gets the full IRA tax credit (no leasing required) of $7500 plus many State rebates too. Acceleration is very good because the ICE drives the wheels and creates electricity for the Motor to drives the wheels. It's got good get-up-and-go at Freeway speeds.
PHEV were a good idea 10 years ago. EVs are are just flat out better in all aspects. A PHEV, you are carrying around heavy batteries, and gallons of gas. Like you guys said, you have to maintain both engines. Just go full battery.
Not me.
I prefer a fully loaded 2023 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV because I beg to differ that battery electric can carry more batteries than a PHEV.
@@RichardJoashTanconsidering they get 10x or more range I’d say they do
@@RichardJoashTan The point I am making is in a PHEV you are carrying 2 types of "engines" and only using one at any giving time. When using the battery, you are lugging around gas and parts you are not using. When using the ICE, you are not using the batteries. Just pick one, not both.
@@gregpochet4812 But not the Outlander PHEV.
I think a lot of the people that PHEVs are marketed too are people who don't follow this channel and still think of full EVs as they were 10 years ago. Even if most of them actually could do just fine in a full EV, it may be easier for the car salesman to just sell them a PHEV than to convince them of this.
Once we reach the point, where virtually everyone at least knows somebody who drives a full EV, even if they don't themselves, the number of people in this group will start to shrink fast.
PIHs might bring people to EVs by giving a taste of driving electric. For me, I would always be trying to get every last mile out of my charge before the car goes to ICE. That would naturally lead me to an EV where I could get big miles all electric!
PHEV's are great for many uses for most people. Yesteryears Chev Volt was one of the best with up to 70 miles of electric range depending on use.......having said that a PHEV with 15 miles is a bit of a waste of money.
I feel the volt was more of a electric car with range extended motor instead of a traditional phev.
@tkmedia3866 technically you are right, but isn't that what all if them should be. I kept my 2019 premier Volt and still drive it, my other ride is a 2023 ID.4 awd pro. I enjoy both.
It would be interesting to do a full range test utilizing it to it's most efficient and price of use compared to a similar full ev. If the technology could improve over the next few years because it seems Toyota are still banging on about not committing to bev. So they will be about for a long time going forward ( Stupid in my opinion but still )
But smart for me because I will buy a fully loaded 2023 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV anyway. Besides, battery electric cars are dumber than the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV because it is the best selling Plug In Hybrid in the world.
@@RichardJoashTanand yet it’s still outsold by Teslas 😅
@@chidorirasenganz Teslas are S T U P I D and B U L L S H I T
In Norway they are called fake hybrides!
They say that you can drive with just electric. But, try to drive it without any gas in the tank. You can't, so it's just fake.
The only reason this car is "cramped" on the inside is because it's a "C" segment SUV....
A Tesla Model Y requires 30 tons of earth to be excavated for the lithium required for it’s battery while a PHEV requires about 4 tons of earth to be excavated for it’s battery. In other words one could build about 8 gas saving PHEV’s for every Model Y. According to Consumer Reports the most reliable cars on the road are not EV’s but their lesser sister gas saving hybrids for which you could build nearly 50 vehicle lithium batteries compared to a Tesla Model Y. Hybrids require no charging, no range anxiety, less mining and reliability. I get the fandom with EV’s but if we are serious about climate change getting 80% of drivers in a hybrid compared to less than 10% in EV’s is the way to go.
The problem with PHEV's, at least from what I've seen from the few people I know who have bought one, is that they straight up never plug them in. I know someone who bought a new Wrangler Rubicon 4XE because the dealer was able to make it cheaper than the one she initially wanted thanks to incentives, she didn't know you could plug them in, and even after telling her, she never does because "it only goes like 30 miles anyway so why would I bother". It's infuriating.
Don’t forget when doing this moving earth thing that gas vehicles also need a lot of minerals to be mined to make the catalysts for refining gasoline/ diesel and to make the catalytic converter, they are not innocent of mining minerals
I think you may have been a bit BEV biased. I have a RAV4 Prime that gets over 55 mi electric range in the summer and 45 mi in the Ohio winters. Can be driven in all EV mode during my 40+ daily commute to the point that I haven’t filled up with gas for 2 months. I am able to charge easily in my garage with 110 outlet overnight. Plenty of power and on long road trips average approximately40 mpg just slightly less than the regular RAV 4 hybrid. It may be a transitional vehicle till BEVs are mandatory but seems like the best of both worlds till then. Long trips are not a problem( I have 25,000 mi on my not quite 2 yr old vehicle) and do not take extra hours of charging or planning and no range anxiety or concern. It is less expensive than the car you are showing in this video. One problem is the long wait to purchase these cars as they are quite popular.
Just MHO