Cannot say this is false at all, but at the same time it's pretty much impossible to control your IP to stay niche while whishing for the community to expand and hoping for all of it to be profitable long term on top of that. GW is getting pretty scummy for sure, and could have mitigated the pitfalls the franchise has been diving into, but the way things are right now is just the result of almost any successfully growing product/company/IP after that many years imho.
But the problem is 40K has always been massive like at no point what I consider 40k a niche hobby it’s literally one of the big franchises of sci-fi and has a monopoly over the wargame table top market how can peopleconsider this niche? and I’ve been a 40K fan for a long time.
@@reddevil3277 How much of the general public do you actually think are into table top miniatures? People know of franchises like Star Wars and Star Trek even by passing. Warhammer has always been relatively niche.
@@Darthpsychonis Star Wars and Star Trek are literal global blockbusters the Warhammer isn’t popular to that extent but it is incredibly popular within sci-fi fantasy and gaming, and it’s been that way for almost a decade, honestly in my opinion the table top is niece but the franchise isn’t I’ve always known people in real life who know 40K or at least heard or seen a reference to it without knowing the context almost everyone seen a space marine nowadays that shit is popular as a halo Spartan
What I find funny is that people feel offended that the demonculaba shows what chaos is that’s like wanting to watch a film about the horror of Germany during world war 2 and getting offended that the Nazi rape and kill. They are bad guys they are not supposed be nice people that’s why I hate when people say the demonculaba was bad when the entire point of the book was to show how evil the iron warriors are.
>Iron warriors infamous for their lack of compassion and dark pragmatism >Add chaos into the fucking mix >They kidnap women and put them into some of the worst fates in 40k >Somehow vouched as the good guys? Did people read the book fucking upside down?
Okay, this argument is stupid. Most people don't complain about the Daemonculaba because it makes chaos evil, they complain about it because of just how excessively over the top and exploitive it feels. Whether you agree or disagree on that notion is up to you, but don't twist people's words.
@@Alzir-n9m I really don't understand how you came to the conclusion that you would have to respond to a comment's response with pathetic reasoning, if we are taking into account that 40k is grim dark and has to be "excessively over the top and exploitive it feels." Thanks for reading, good afternoon.
40K isn't the only franchise that has this problem for some reason there are a concerningly large amount of companies that think making their franchises worse and trying to use psychological tricks to get people's money is more profitable then actually making something good.
That’s because the people pushing for these changes hate the fan base and the source material, or are outright focusing on getting personal profits from social credit because that DEI stuff is hella addictive
Business plans have changed, as companies are trying to push for global markets. That's why 40k is now a cartoony & hopeful Star Wars marketed to every racial group & sexual orientation to get more fans to the hobby. Not with a specific product necessarily. 40k is a multi-media franchise after all.
Consumerism and lazy hobbyists are just as culpable for the fall of 40k, it was awesome when people used it as a narrative setting and where every army was "Your Dudes" when people weren't afraid to have fun, be fluffy and creative. Then somewhere along the way metagaming took over and GW adjusted because they realized the money they could make shoveling product out the door to satiate "competitive" gaming scene.
Its always the "competitive" people obsessed with "tournament rules" that try hard and ruin the games for themselves. I saw a youtuber burnt out trying to catch up to the meta. What a tool. Ranked and Competitive modes are just because your lives are empty and miserable so they make hobbies their metric of progression in realspace.
Old 40k was a tragedy. One man's bold vision of a unified mankind crumbling into eternal war and him becoming the face of the most powerful and vicious church ever known despite seeking no worship. All by the hands of the very powers he sought to protect humanity from. There are no heroes, only despoilers in a vast, unforgiving, and mysterious galaxy. #New40k, however, is like some freak hybrid of Warcraft and an MCU movie where the Imperium (which GW can't decide are the heroic defenders of humanity or a necessary evil) battles the cartoon villain forces of Chaos and equally cartoon villain Xenos in a universe with no room for interpretation.
You've hit the nail on the head. GW, for the love of all that is holy, DECIDE WHETHER THE IMPERIUM IS EVIL, OR AN ANTI-VILLAIN/ANTI-HERO! MAKE UP YOUR MIND ALREADY!
I'm so old that in my day we didn't even know what the Emps motivations were in creating the IoM. We were pretty confident he made the Space Marines and that the Horus Heresy happened in some form but for all we really knew Horus could've been the lesser of two evils during the Heresy and his reputation as the most evil man in history a product of the fact that the winners got to write the history books... Rick Priestly described the average citizen of the IoM as having a "medieval mindset" back in 1987 when 40k was first released. I think that's important to remember when asking whether the IoM is good or bad, or somewhere in between. I mean, if the IoM is fascist like a lot of people say does that mean medieval Europe was also fascist? What about ancient Rome or the Byzantine Empire? I often describe 40k as a Medieval fantasy setting (In SPACE!!!) created by people who knew how crappy Medieval Europe was for most of the population. They knew how brutal the punishments were and how stifling the social order was for most people. It's not a rose tinted, idealised, or heroic vision of the past, the same knight who might flog a man half to death for failing to meet his tithe is also the person who keeps the area safe from brigands, so there's a lot of ambiguity there, and it's up to each person to judge whether they think the various trade offs are worth it.
@@Culexus101 They... kind of... didn't know how was it in the medieval europe. You have no Idea how many church-organised holidays with huuuuuge feast there were. Those old buggers had more free days than I have and I am free man in modern europe.
@@kronos661 Well that's where your own value judgements come into it. If extra feast days are enough to make you happy with being a peasant bound to labour on a single strip of land for your whole life then that's ok. The 40k equivalent could be an indentured factory worker who inherited his fathers job on a production line and the only way out is death or attempting to run away, something that could lead to premature death either way. The cafeteria serves cheap grub and there are feast days every so often, so it's not all bad...
I hate the fact that so many people shit on the daemonculaba for being "too edgy", it perfectly encapsulates what 40k and the forces of chaos are horrific gruesome, cruel, disgusting and disturbing gw has slowly been turning chaos into these marvel tier mustache twirling villains and i hate it.
i just learned what those are, and i love it gonna use them in my rogue trader campaign, and make my players feel uneasy... that's gonna be great! they wanted the grimdark setting - they are getting it oh boy... and how they are getting it bwahahahaa :D
@@funaccount7665 Sorry but bad guy from Black Skies Dead Sun Honshu was moustache twirling villian and your ultra dark Daemonculaba is one chapter That was sp grimdaaaark
I like to call the problem "Horus-ification". Basically, a lot of people who get into 40k do so by way of the Horus Heresy. This makes a lot of sense because HH is a very clean cut, accessible narrative. It has a focus on humanity, possesses a clear protagonist/antagonist, and has a clear beginning/middle/end that eases new people into the wider setting. I'd argue that this is a good thing, in and of itself, however, its success has spawned some rather dire consequences. See, despite the beliefs of GW and a sizable portion of the fanbase believe, HH is not 40k. HH is a narrative, first and foremost, set outside of the 40k setting, and while it functions as a primer, it is restricted both by its degree of seperation from 40k-proper and the necessities of its narrative. This misunderstanding of the two properties has bled into the very fabric of 40k and altered it's fundamental focus. In a desire to expand accessibility, GW has fundamentally shifted 40k away from being a setting, first and foremost, to being a narrative. This has meant introducing overarching progress to the setting which is degrading and dismantling the underlying framework bit by bit. Returning Primarchs, Primaris Marines, splitting the galaxy in two, and waking up the necrons are all symptomatic of this "forward" narrative push. The Primarchs, in particular, are probably the most damaging of all. Their presence has co-opted the focus of the setting and set it down the path to an inevitable "End Times" incident. You can basically gauge the life expectancy of 40k as a property by how many Primarchs are back. Each one is another set closer to the Emperor "ascending" (which is the way they're dragging the all consuming narrative now), which will, by necessity, lead to GW nuking the setting and replacing it with a much more "open" and "corporate safe" property, like AoS. Give it somewhere in the span of 10 years or so.
I agree. HH bleed into 40k too much. It should have been a time of half forgotten legends that only oldest chaos space marines can remember vaguely. Now it seems like the Heresy happened like a 100 years ago instead of 10k because everything revolves around primarchs again. Best lore came out of the times when the setting was focused on "current" events like war for Armageddon or the Badab war. 40k should remain a perpetually stagnant SETTING for people to tell stories within it's confines. And I think GW wanted to nuke 40k somewhere around 8th to 9th edition (like Fantasy) but the pandemic made them a boatload of money so they instead opted for dragging it out as long as they can.
@louisnall3102 The solution is pretty simple - localize storytelling. 40k, like Fantasy before it, is a setting in which smaller stories can be told within. You don't - and shouldn't - tell massive, galaxy-altering stories with 40k. Rather, you should be telling smaller stories with strong character or worldbuilding focuses. You'd never know it reading more recent 40k fluff, but 40k is galaxy-spanning. Practically speaking, that means there are a lot of places to go and explore that extend beyond the dozen or so planets that are typically focused on. Does GW need a new model to sell or plotline for a book? No problem. Throw a dart at a map of the galaxy and start filling it out with stuff.
@louisnall3102 I agree with the last part. At a certain point if we just had like 20 years of "This very localized bad thing happened" I wouldn't care about the setting becuase at the end of the day I want something to shake up the world as a whole.
What really gets me is compared how terrifying the Necrons were during the Soul Drinkers books compared to how they are in current lore. They went from being malicious shadows of a sentient race, barely showing hints of their former personalities underneath their brutal programming and all encompassing hatred of all life...to being bickering nobility...
They are both of those things. They are a FACTION. If the Guard can coexist with the Inquisition which can coexist with the Mechanicus, all under the banner of "The Imperium" I don’t see why the Necrons couldn’t.
To be fair the only people who would have personality well were the nobles whom even then. Probably during the war in heaven had only the parts of your personality you need for war active.
Mi to think i am old enougth to play old warcraft 3 and even play warcraft 2 and to see what warcraft was to WOW that crap, yes the game was fun but how,
@@Man_Flippin_Pentagrams indeed, i mean i am old enougth to play and i know there are people who play in youtube but they dont know or watch it, also to think RTS was the simbol of PC gaems, RTS, free fligth simulation in shooters, or that PC gaming was extremly creative, know, when WOW came out, everinone wanted a wow, clone and now we have these industry everone presuing trends
What I liked most about early Tyranid lore was... when they harvested a planet... it was 'gone'. Sure; you could still visit but they took everything. The water, the minerals in the soil, and most of the air. It added so much to the horror of the Tyranids. Even if they could be 'easily' defeated by astartes any planet taken was effectively gone. Now? The authors wave their magic wands and important planets are terraformed back into shape in a hundred years.
Honestly I would've changed the primaris marines into a smaller and more expendable stock due to the Astartes slowly dying off, going rouge, joining chaos, or has gone missing. This would've emphasized the desperation and inevitable death of the imperium...
Yes! Emphasize the desperation by showing them compromising on quality, allowing basically lesser versions for space marines for expediency. This is much more harrowing and evocative of true grim dark than just constantly having bigger machines or whatever. It ruined it. It's dead to me.
After thinking about it for a bit, I think this "compromise for expediency" thing could be drawn out into so many storylines. Have one of the new primaris marines discover that they're just bad copies, developing a crisis of conscience where he starts his own rebellion against his makers. We could have done this all day, but now we're stuck with the GW primaris marines that are untouchable and therefore, boring.
It kinda sorta doesn't, the imperium and/or humanity still lives on. Personally I believe the imperium was a temporary thing to be replaced with some spiritual awakening or the webeay gate project until it was postponed by the heresy. There is also this planned obsolescence going on with the super solider projects like the Thunder Warriors down to the lowly Astartes. It just comes to shoe that the emperors imperium wasn't built to last yet humanity will still adapt, change and evolve(or in this case devolve) into the circumstances they are in. So yeah....the story will live on, with a more darker tone maybe?
15:50 you do not know how many people think that the Orkz are actually happy funny guys instead of the monsters that they actually are thanks to memes.
It depends on who’s telling the story, if it’s someone fighting against orks then yes they’re fucking terrifying. If it’s a story through the eyes of an ork it’s just Jackass 5
If the setting is bright and the orks are happy then they are just silly orks. If then the setting is portrayed dark and depressing but you have orks being happy then you have monsters which is fitting. The orks are more or less in their character but its the setting around it that makes the orks intimidating. I do agree that the memes have an effect on 40k and some people take it too literally, instead being of a ironic joke. I did fell for it my self when I started 40k but later I do notice after reading some books it was either overinflated with fluff or outright wrong.
@@TheNellop I think the issue is the perception that people have where the orks just enjoy fighting in general rather than them being cruel and psychopathic which is more accurate
Eh, orkz are a comic relief in grimdark Warhammer. Everyone is like "im so serious, because im fighting for survival" Meanwhile orkz have funny speech and just open their windows in space to let some fresh air in They're funny guys if you look at it from outside. It's funny when someone says in serious voice "its killakanz!" Or tells someone "um, akchually its waaaagh, not wagh" Of course, they are monsters, but only if you live in that world and deal with them
I'm not too sure if its "lost its grimdark" but I do think Warhammer in the early and mid 2000's was peak and I definitely don't like how GW is changing its lore. Again.
As I mention in the video which I would assume that you did. If you ain't too sure, go and look at the old stuff and make a comparison with the new stuff. Make your own judgement and see for your self. Are you judging it base on the lore or the art direction or even better both? Don't take my word for it. I just want people to go and check these stuff and see if someone has stated similar argument like I did in the video is true. If its false then why? You ask yourself questions and while finding the answers that you seek. The more you mess around the more you find out.
@@TheNellop I feel like GW saw the modern trends, got too greedy for their own good, and are in a state of sanitization to break into the mainstream. Before this video, I didn't know how poorly the primaris change was written (I joined the hobby in Orktober of 2021). I predict that if GW will try to push for an LGBT progressive trend, their sales could (theoretically) peak and crash 2 weeks later because the modern far-left has an attention spam of a quarter of a second. After that, I will expect the hobby to be truly dead or an apology video.
@@BroodingEdgelord Most lore changes etc. are written very poorly by GW. Kinda feel like they are mandated or something, not liek the writers arent woek as f.
I remember being a Star Wars refugee (got out when George sold to Disney, knew what was coming) and coming to 40k and seeing how beautiful a story and universe it was. I remember thinking about how much it, in its own way, reminded me of SW during the glory days. Immediately following that thought was the realization that it would face the same fate as SW soon enough. I'm sad to be right.
You realize that you can still engage with the EU in Star Wars... right? Like it still exists. It's not like the whole franchise is just dead thanks to Disney's meddling. Hell, with fanfiction you can just write stories that go in the direction you want or feel are more in-line with the original vision. See, this is what I never got about these kinds of, "My franchise's glory days are long gone," complaints. And I say this as a major Bungie era Halo fan in light of 343's massive retcons and the Halo show and the direction the current series has taken. Things like Project Daybreak exist, I can still choose to go with the idea that Forerunners are humans and that the Covenant is actually unknowingly genociding their gods thanks to the lies of the Prophets, I can completely ignore the Halo show (which is dead now thankfully) along with Master Cheeks, etc. As far as I'm concerned Halo ended at Reach officially, and where it went after that is up to fans. So while on some level the series I love is past its official glory days thanks to 343 and Microsoft (and should have ended at 3 since Bungie was done with it), unofficially it's nowhere near that bad. Because I can just choose to discard the changes I dislike. Same thing goes for Doctor Who or any series really.
@@am-ranth8955 Yes you can engage in the extended universe. But it becomes that much harder. Let me give you an example with 40k. I didn't like anything past the 5th edition of the game. Now you can tell me, I can still enjoy the 5th edition, but who can I enjoy it with? TH-cam videos aren't going to be talking about an old edition, the gaming stores around me aren't going to be hosting games with the old edition, and if I joined a community, the new edition is going to be the talk of the town. Same goes for star wars. Yes you can, go and play star wars themed dnd sessions with friends, yes you can read the old books and enjoy them. But when all the newer games and all the people around you are talking about the new stuff because its the new big thing, it can make you feel very small and alone. And it sucks. It really really sucks.
@@am-ranth8955 I tried man. I was writing a SW fanfic based in the EU for a few years, eventually with all of the defacing they did to Star Wars, I realized two things: - That I had lost the passion for SW that drove my desire to write the fanfic (btw it was the longest work of fiction on the site that I wrote it on and that was just the first third of the first book of an entire trilogy I had planned) - That my maximum possible audience, which was already a subgroup of a subgroup of a subculture, was only going to shrink as time went on, leaving me essentially telling myself a story, which would be fine, if I wasn't demotivated af and deprived of the old passion 40k has already started down the same path. Idk how the subversion of GW went down or how long in the making it's been, but yet another mythos has fallen, all that's left is to pull up lawn chairs, grab some soda and popcorn, and watch the fireworks.
@@Justacheese I can see how that would be an issue, but that does sound very much like what draws you to the series has changed. From that era of the setting hooking you and drawing you in, to the communities that sprung up around it instead. And I'm not saying that's a bad goal, but if your desire is to eliminate or mitigate the isolating aspects yet you can't stand the newer material, the only real choice you have is to find groups that are centered around the parts of it you do like. Again, both a SW and Halo fan here, and in Halo especially I know the feeling you describe, what with the constant gaslighting 343 fans do regarding the lore. But I remain a Halo fan and a fervent one at that not because of the community's current consensus, but because of that initial premise and lore and execution that drew me in to begin with. Same goes for Star Wars. The High Republic might as well not exist for me, but the Old Republic? As far as I'm concerned that's the only Republic I care about in that part of the series' lore. I know it's not an ideal solution, but it is a solution. The alternative is a continued downward spiral as the source material changes from what you knew and loved. It won't go back to the way it was, but you can. Always could.
i wanna tell everyone this: the 40k STARTED to get less grim dark at 5th edition it wasnt bad back then but it was noticable, then came 6th and many fans got enough but they didnt quit the hobby. for at that time forge world released the first rule books and models for horus heresy which many of the 40k fans jumped to instead INCLUDING me as we lost our passion for 40k. when 30k was out FW pumped out like 100-300 kits A YEAR for 18 legions, custodians, solar auxilia and sisters of silence. sadly at Alan Bligh who was a true fan of 40k passed away (RIP his soul) and corporate greed got their claws in 30k as well as my passion for 30k is now also dying because everything is repeating
5th ed was still firmly grimdark. I think the shift started with the 6th ed eldar wraithknight release. From that point forwards there was something slightly off imo. Funnily enough round about the same time as the end times for fantasy (rip). It's around then gw stopped asking if they should and began asking if they could. Same rough time as the imperial knight and tempestus scions released. Neither of which I have ever felt quite fit the aesthetic.
@@qwertyg3666 Exactly how? Knights are fairly ornate now compared to back then. Especially the armigers despite me not exactly being much of a fan of them.
Thats what makes it good. they should keep making books from before AOP, just to enforce the grimdark vibe of before. But they should also be careful to tie the transition to nobledark, to the awakening of the primarchs
What I miss more than anything in Warhammer is the satire. The utter exaggerated nature the empire used to have and all the goofy ahh fun ideas rogue trader had.
Guys, I really thought warhammer adventures was a meme. Like "let's make an edit of a saga which is totally not meant for children as a children show" Now I just got the poker face.
I'm relatively new to 40k only really getting into it during the pandemic so, I don't really have a great hold on the old lore. With that said, I despise how toned down modern 40k can be sometimes. I yearn for a story where Orks are ripping people limb from limb laughing their heads off because they think the Oomies screaming in pain is confusing and humorous to an Ork who can barely feel anything. I'm not going to complain about the return of the Primarchs because, to me, characters build a lot of my interest in 40k and seeing Robute having a fucking crisis with trying to come to terms of what the Imperium has become whilst still trying to govern it is equally humorous and tragic which kind of plays into the grim dark feel - after all for a being as genetically perfect as a Primarch to still feel despair and nihilism is pretty grim in my book. I do fear that 40k will/is become/becoming less gruesome for the sake of getting new fans, specifically from the woke young adults that want a hobby. In my opinion, 40k is and should remain unapologetically harsh and cruel because, let's face it, that's realistic. No pandering to children or the woke just pure sorrow and pain. Yes, there will be times where a certain faction has upswings like the Imperium and the return of their Primarchs but, that only expands the amount of sorrow the franchise can portray. Essentially, 40k should be equal parts badass and absolute nightmare fuel.
I fell in love with the "old marine" look. Primaris just doesnt give the same feeling. My biggest gripe is when a friend said he like the primaris because they look like spartans from halo. New 40k is slowly just becoming generic space war.
This. This is the reason I couldn't stand the new Necron codex. I didn't even have a Necron army or play them, but I despised the new codex with a passion, when they were changed from killer automatons to space robot Egyptians. It got bad enough that at one point I started doubting myself about other parts of the lore that were going through similar changes. Because the 40K wiki was being edited in real time. It was like memories I had were being forcefully changed in front of my faced and it sucked. So one day I snapped and asked my parents to get me the 4th edition Necron codex for Christmas. It was one of the best ideas I had related to the hobby. Now I can read about the old lore of the Necrons whenever I want and games workshop can't change it because its in my house on FUCKING PAPER.
I don't know much about OLD old 40k since I am both a recently and VERY mild when it comes to how I interaction with it but weren't the old necrons bassically just knock off terminators? This works for the argument of "modern 40k is not grimdark" but honestly that seems WAY more boring than anything about the reworked necrons. Though I am very much a Tau enjoyer and have never really much cared too much for the grimdarkness of the setting.
@@matijasostojic4288 Yes they were knockoff terminators for the most part. But they had a twist that made them unique. Their gods the C'tan, were soul eating horrible monsters that bossed the necrons around. The necrons were kinda boring souless (In the literal sense) robots that followed the whims of their evil gods. In the new lore the necrons have captured the C'tan and essentially use them as pokemon. This is one of the reasons I liked the old version of the necrons. The C'tan had so little written about their motives besides the fact that they want to eat souls, that it was frightening. That whole fear of the unknown factor, is what made me like the faction. But now, with the new lore, it goes into great detail explaining how the necrons captured the C'tan an imprisoned them. Making the whole faction feel goofy to me rather than scary. I know I was way too long winded for my own good, but I hope you understand why I liked the old necrons now.
@@Justacheese I guess but for me personaly (And for a lot of people) this still seems pretty basic and boring. Like maybe they have more lore than you explained but this doesn't make me scared becuase of the lack of info, it makes me think "Kinda just seem like a typical demon or like some necromancer deity". It probably why GW made them the way they are in modern times. The C'tan themselves seemed to basic to actually make the knock off terminators interesting. And honestly again, I don't care for the grimdarkness off it and modern necrons are way too fun for me to agree with your viewpoint but hey if you like it I won't judge.
@@matijasostojic4288 That's fair. At the end of the day I'm one of the few people who don't like the changes. I understand that the whole company won't bend over to please me because I don't like one of the changes. So that's why I stopped buying the models or going to my local game store to play games. It killed the passion for me. If you like the new stuff though, go ahead and enjoy it. Makes me wish I wasn't so butthurt about all of it. In fact sometimes I'm kinda jealous that people can enjoy the new stuff more than I can :P
@@Justacheese As far as i remember the Necrons rebelling and defeating the C'tan was there from quite early, and then they woke up and hate all life and want to kill everyone, then quite recently they made them actually talk and communicate and what not.
You miss the most iconic picture of the 3 Ed where a black Templar stepping on his his dead brother who got spitting in half and firing his bolt pistol in one hand and holding a broken sword in the other.
I start the game at 1995 second Ed and gets in to it at third Ed and starting to get tried of it at the point where they start doing the HH series, not saying the writing is bad but the best part of the game is mystery surrounding what happened before the big E sitting on the golden throne is like every body wants to see a beautiful woman naked but ones she is naked it will strips out all the excitement.
I left at the beginning of 7th. Mainly because no one had concerns a rule of thumb being discarded. In that weapon type overwrote vehicle type. It made my common line tank was useless… so I just left. Smartest choice is to leave and branch out to things to enjoy and save your money. Either the company loses access to it’s customers or it doubles down. Can only dig so far down till you end up stuck and unable to get out and then they have to bargain with the customer to get the ladder. Constantly compare and point out things and honestly, I appreciate you for this video. I got into it because my dad wanted to I watched the Roughnecks show and he got something similar to it. Got me hooked. Eventually I switched from Tyranids to IG but I had a lot of fun back then. I then started reading those books, and enjoying all the stories and wanting to collect the books as well… till I got screwed over rules wise as it made no lore sense and I just decided since GW didn’t care about it’s lore matching to game, I shouldn’t continue playing the board game. Cause they would eventually throw out the old lore to make new lore that contradicts the old lore. Will happen later as well as it has to draw in new customers to buy into it. Honestly, thanks for this video. It’s honestly evolved into how people wanted Star Wars to be, mixed with Battletech, Starship Troopers, Halo, Doom, Star Trek, and such. It has so much combined into it, I kind of feel it’s a joke now of being “The Jack of All Trades Science Fiction Series”. That used to be Star Trek and Star Wars. Now it feels like both are competing on who has better exploration setting. So honestly, I am disappointed with 40k. Kind of why I don’t want Warhammer Fantasy revived. Mainly because it won’t be Warhammer Fantasy anymore because people won’t care it’s the old stuff they liked.
Wow, this is very wholesome and this comment is better than my video god damn lol. I appreciate your time commenting on this, it was very heart warming to read.
I predict that if GW will try to push for an LGBT progressive trend to get to the mainstream, their sales could (theoretically) peak and crash 2 weeks later because the modern far-left has an attention spam of a quarter of a second. After that, I will expect the hobby to be truly dead or an apology video.
I dipped end of 6th, I hated how vehicle mounted plasma weapons(dreadnoughts, leman russ executioners, sentinels) were now subject to the "gets hot" rule. It was many other little things as well that built up to me dropping the game, but that one little change was what kept rattling around in my mind. Weapon system and platforms that can mount the appropriate cooling systems to not be hamstrung by the excessive waste heat build up? That doesn't work anymore? No? Alright, bye.
I recently found my first ever Warhammer codex- 4th edition Orks and it was beautiful, not just for the nostalgia but also seeing how grimdark all the pictures were, keeping a balance between the Ork's comical side yet still having that grimdark look in all the artwork and of course those flat trucks. Games Workshop haven't yet gone full 'World of Warcraft' in their styling but there's definatly a change in them being less 'metal'. It also felt less commercialised, with the "Mek's workshop" page actively encouraging you to use non-GW pieces for Ork dreadnoughts.
I think this quote from the 4th edition rulebook sums up the feel of grimdark perfectly: "Who is to judge what is right and what is wrong? Great and powerful foes surround us and unknown miscreants gnaw at us from within. We are threatened with total annihilation. In days such as these we can afford no luxury of morality"
Man I love those old black and white pictures, same with DnD pictures. Those old ones just have such a mood to them. But I think you’re right, one problem is them explaining everything leaving little mystery, pushing into the future of the setting but in super radical ways. And man I’ve never been a SM fan but I hate primaris why not just adjust the model sizes without the dumb lore.
I quit during 3.5 and came back around 9th when a friend gave me some Votann models. All I can say is that being away for a couple of years REALLY makes the BS stand out. 40K was once my favorite setting, but it has lost all of it's soul and frankly, I am one of these people that "won't be missed" according to GW. Turns out that I don't miss their marketing BS either, and now that I am outside of their walled garden - there are FAR better games out there. With consistent rulesets that don't change every time some GW smells your money.
@@Sephlock I find it hard to quickly recommend something without knowing people's preferences and without a huge list of disclaimers, but I've been diving into BattleTech lately (Classic and Alpha Strike) and have been pleasantly surprised how little the core ruleset has changed over 40 years. The game isn't WYSIWYG to begin with, and models produced in the 80's are still 100% valid.
I’m waiting for the massive slannesh retcon when they launch the emperors children codex. They’ve already been trying to turn them into people just obsessed with perfection. Rather than the hedonistic hellraiser body horror freaks from the Fulgrim heresy book. 🙄🤨
@Red_Crows They gonna have to since they are sanitizing their ip more and more. As their brand expands. I personally really doubt they are going to keep it as it is, theres no way.
There were too many parallels with the hedonistic body horror freaks interpretation of Slaanesh with certain "protected groups" in real life. You just can't depict mutilating your own body as a bad thing now. And neither can you depict depraved sex acts in any sort of negative light. Our society is healthy.
It definitely is still grim dark, they just decided to give the Imperium a small breath of air but things are still going pretty bad. It's fine for the good guys to get epic moments sometimes and not always get their asses kicked by the xenos and chaos.
I think what annoys me about 40k is similar to what happened to D&D it has been rampant with memes that become overused and bleed into the lore because the masses loce to see their favorite marine chapter act one note.
@@Ayahuasca98 the video games a great way for new people to introduce them the universe what is awful is the Loretubers who basically muddy up the water with stupid lore videos that abridge and memify the lore.
@@noblegalifreyan4551 yeah definitely. I still think DOW was a fun game but overall I much prefer talking to hobbyists than just people who play like, space marine 2 or Dawn of war or something. But a lot of these lore TH-camrs after 2015 (year I got into it oddly enough) feel half hearted.
This video couldnt come out at a better time. Nearly 18 years ago, i started getting into 40k. Bought necron codex, some necron warriors, destroyers. Time passed, with me not touching 40k, because of school, then university, work... when i moved abroad i found both times and expendable income to go back to minis, but by then necrons became just space egyptians. The minis looked boring, the lore was plain stupid... and i thought to myself "damn, i was just a dumb kid i guess", and i moved on to different army. I got back home last week and i found this codex, that i bought way back then. Figured id page through it and laugh at how stupid i was. Damn, necrons are hecking cool again. Point is, that 40k the way it is right now, aint for me anymore. But 40k the way it was definitely is what im about.
Honestly you had me in the first part. But when you started going through the anti-woke rabbit hole it made me concerned. Look its ok if you dont enjoy current warhammer 40k. But just keep in mind that when they say that they dont tolerate bigots. They arent talking about you. They are talking about stupid bad people that cant accept different people. Also what appeals to me in this setting is that its over the top and that the setting is grimdark. Not the characters. Ciaphas Cain, Talos, trazyn and many others are my favorite characters because they are very human. They have wants, needs, dreams and personality The grimdarkness of their stories dont come from them being edgy. It comes from what they fight against or perhaps... What they have become.
The issue is that the woke mob is incredibly obnoxious and almost invariably makes everything about them, which is a form of narcissism and attention seeking. Corporations will do a little woke PR to lazily try to appear morale and lecture their consumer base while doing nothing to alleviate suffering around the world. People like to act self righteous while putting no thought into complex issues or history. People don't like to think, they just like to act morally righteous and lecture others. For example Disney filmed Mulan in China, right outside a camp where they were committing genocide and even thanked the CCP that was presiding over those camps. Actual morality is not important, winning political points on the other hand... People in the USA live in an amazing time, most have never suffered from discrimination and if anything are benefiting from the system. Yet because their ancestors or people from their group suffered decades ago, they act like it was they themselves who suffered, because people want to be victims. Millions of Soviets were killed in WW2 by the Germans. Should we insert Russians into every media as a result? Do you want to be lectured about how Russians are super awesome all the time simply because they are Russians? Now the most important quality you could have is being a woman, being black, and liking gay sex, or being trans qualities people have no control over besides the trans part. I'm so great because I'm gay, I'm a woman so I'm awesome at everything, I'm black, so brave. I didn't do anything, but I'm amazing because I'm gay. People are getting judged for completely irrelevant characteristics. After getting that shoved in your face for 10 years it's going to annoy anybody. What if men did that? I'm a man, so everything I do is awesome. Like no one wants to hear bragging about shit they didn't even accomplish, just things they were born with. People aren't valuing being friendly, polite, cleverness, intelligence or merit but completely irrelevant characteristics. Moreover, almost always you have to shit on straight men, usually white men. Like most white men have any control over the past or ever discriminated against anybody. It's ironic because we're being told that racism and bigotry is bad, that's why we're being bigoted right now against white men. Even more ironic is it's frequently men who have created all these systems we enjoy today- Warhammer, fighting games, RPG's, videogames. Women, gays, etc. are just not that interested in those topics, and that's okay too. Women are not disinterested in videogames because of systematic discrimination by the way. If we were celebrating everybody it would be one thing but clearly it is favoring certain groups and demonizing others. People aren't valued for their ideas anymore, they're valued for some random characteristic they might have been born with, and this will precipitate the decline of certain media even further because you are no longer hiring the most talented writer, you're hiring someone because they mark the check box of arbitrary characteristics. It doesn't matter if you have poop for brains, you like gay sex so you're hired. People want diversity of skin colors but not diversity of ideas. The trans thing makes it even more complex because for one thing it's not even clear if supporting the movement is the moral thing, you might just be fucking up these people's lives for good by encouraging it. A good argument can be made that these people are mentally ill, and encouraging people to embrace their mental illness and irreversibly mutilate their bodies seems distinctly irresponsible and immoral. In my opinion, these people come off as incredibly entitled. I might feel feminine or like a woman sometimes, does that mean I should get breast augmentations, cross dress and demand everyone call me a woman? People should submit sometimes and realize that they're not going to get what they want all the time. Like I might feel like a woman, but I'm not, and that's okay. I think it's incredibly irresponsible to pump someone full of testosterone because they "feel" like a man. The responsible, safe and reasonable thing to do is adjust their hormone levels to an appropriate level of their gender, these feelings are often a result of out of balance hormones. It's a free country and I don't care what you do behind closed doors, but pushing it on everyone, including children and making it a part of everything is narcissistic and absurd. Not everything needs to be for everyone. Also people don't like weird shit and plastic surgery can be disturbing just by itself. Why are we getting mad at people when they are put off by people acting weird? The respectful thing to do is realize not everyone likes or wants to see weird shit. They want respect, but don't want to give it. I'm sure a very small minority of people do want to be trans and understand the ramifications but for most people it's a path that leads to destruction and depression. Ah yes, let's encourage these people with questionable judgement to make irreversible life altering decisions so I can win political points and feel good about myself without doing anything. For these woke people, they see a brand that makes money or gains popularity and they want to make it all about them, while shitting on the fanbase that has painstakingly supported it for years before it was popular. Happens all the time, and often they drive the brand straight into the ground. Because they're not valuing intelligence or wisdom anymore, it's all about celebrating being a victim, even though they're probably not. I get where you're coming from and don't get me wrong. Racial discrimination is horrible. Everyone should be allowed and encouraged to enjoy the medium. I railed against the woke mob for awhile but there is nuance. In principle I agree that everyone should be included and people shouldn't be judged for characteristics they can't control, but it's not exactly playing out that way. Often, almost always, Wokeism comes off as incredibly obnoxious. If handled right, if it was done respectfully, done less frequently and toned down a bit, it wouldn't be an issue but it's almost always self righteous lecturing and preaching, shitting on men and rampant nepotism/tribalism. Ironically it's moral preaching from people who usually have no moral sense, no wisdom, no critical thinking and no understanding of history. And often brands that do this cater to these people when the Woke people aren't even interested in the brand. Like it's okay that Warhammer 40k is often about men, there's nothing wrong with that. Men should be celebrated too. There are clever ways to include women without shitting all over the established lore, like writing a good woman character- but that's too difficult. I honestly think it's a childish fad that will die out eventually, maybe 30-40 years. It comes off as entitled narcissism. No one wants to hear constant bragging about how someone is great because they happen to be gay, a woman, or black. I think if men or white people did that it would rightfully be called out as undeserved bragging, narcissism, childish and obnoxious. Like yeah, everyone is tribalistic and it's okay to be proud of who you are, but at a certain point it's narcissistic and unhealthy. Like, I'm a man, isn't that amazing? Men are the best, ever. I'm just so awesome because I'm a man and thus everything I do is awesome, I have no flaws. Sorry for writing so much, either you're interested in reading it or you're not, I won't fault you for not. For some people reading is a big chore, for other's it's non-issue. I wanted to make it clear the reasons why Wokeism is so heavily criticized, there's a bit of nuance. In principle I agree, if it was intelligently done and appropriate I would have no problem but in it's current form it has major issues. I think it's a way for basically ignorant, non-critically thinking people to feel better about themselves, by easily being like "Yeah, I support women, blacks, gays and trans!! You don't? Bigot." Let's put it in literally everything, kids have to learn about cross dressing! Obviously people should support blacks, gays and women but it's got blown way out of proportion. People dislike wokeism for a plethora of legitimate reasons, I don't think it's just 'misunderstood.'
Okay why is it bad to go down the anti-woke rabbit hole? Why has that suddenly become such a bad thing to do? Seriously you're acting like it's a damn crime. Also when they say they "don't tolerate bigots" they are in fact talking about who they PERCEIVE to be bigots in their view. Look at what happened with the female custodes debacle, when long time fans rightly called out on the blatant retcon GW called those very same long time fans, bigots...
@@FrostbiteDigital look what happenned to syntheticman. He cant enjoy a single thing because to him everything is woke. And that entretainment media is dead. The guy has the balls of saying that all indie games are worthless (because he thinks theyre woke). When gems like ultrakill and deep rock galatic exist. The whole custodes debacle is GW being GW lol. Also retcons are something really common in 40k and atleast theres a reasonable explanation to why theres female custodes. All of custodes have custom made geneseed different from astartes. So the idea of a female custodes isnt out of reach. And if you look at the 10th Edition Codex for custodes. Its literally just a Pronoun. And it kinda gives the idea that its very rare or hell maybe shes even the exception. And if you disagree thats ok and if GW calls you a bigot fuck them. I just wouldnt say that 40k went woke. The books arent woke just because the writers are pro left.
Well my solution is to keep my own headcanon. I just disregard anything I don’t like in the official lore, like Primaris, the Leagues of Votann, the Erda and Amar Astarte lore, etc. The corporate bosses in charge of GW can never reach inside my head and change my interpretation of 40k and grimdark.
The only sensible solution really. Why complain about all of this when you can just take what you like and leave what you don't, and always could? This isn't a fight for the soul of a nation or anything, it's a fictional universe where everything and everyone sucks.
I got into 40K just months prior to the release of the Primaris Marines. My friend's boyfriend has a small group of tabletop players, and they let me in on some lore. I played DoW, Space Marine, watched the Astartes and Helsreach animations, read WH40K and HH novels and I fell in love immediately. Then the Primaris came out and I was like, "Wait, they look way too clean. What's happening?" and that's stayed that way for a while now, I feel
I'm an old head at this point, even talked about the main issues with the Primaris (Look at that new Blood Angels box, lazy) and the other changes for sometime. You did a very good job covering it in a way I think many newer folks can relate to. Will be suggesting your channel .
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Back when Dawn of War: Dark Crusade release I was introduced to W40K. It didn't try to lore dump the setting on me so what I knew about the setting was very sparse, but it gave me the idea of a dark and violent world and I was intrigued, a teenager that I was. Then I went to YT which had a lot of cool tributes to various 40K factions (bless you Makkovar) and the image of this massive, dark setting became firmer and firmer. Lastly I, em, pirated the latest edition at the time (I think it was 5th) and I began considering myself a fan of the setting. But the problem was, I only knew the setting in its broad strokes. Since then, over the years, l learned more about the setting and grew to like it less and less. It became apparent that W40K is a product, meant to be sold, and that GW ill do anything to make it appealing to as many people as possible. They'll retcon or remove anything that conflicts with increasing sales. Also, an army of writers of middling to low quality write for GW and they each have their own ideas about what the setting, or specific factions in it, should be like. This lead to setting schizophrenia where certain parts are incredibly dark while others seems straight out of a Monty Python. Some people will call it a satire while others take it completely straight, and both will have sufficient material in the officially released material to prove that their take is the correct one. So I stopped giving a fuck about W40K. I still think that its broad strokes are great - a stagnant, repressive, millennia old empire beset on all sides by enemies, always at war, having to stoop to the worst atrocities for survival - but every time I zoom in I find some stupid shit some middling writer thought was cool or some exec thought would sell more plastic toys.
People pointing to IW when daemonculaba is mentioned, forget that it was made by a hybrid iron warrior/imperial fist that doesn't represent the legion in it's entirety
I'm telling you, I really wish the nerd community didn't go mainstream because it invited people that really don't care about the nature of the subculture....that's why these titles are the way they are....it's a weird oddly trend for most to chase and, they shame the true fans of those genres. Then you have the companies that just make the most ridiculous business move only for them to stab themselves in the foot. So, really no one is winning at the end of it all. Also! Great video.
Im a complete transplant to the 40k community. Its not the nerd community anymore like you said. Every jock I know worships 40k now. The truth is, 40k is mainstream now. And not for the board games it came from. Its for the story. Board games have a setting. The setting doesn't progress. But a story needs to progress. So I kinda like the new age of primarchs, and the story progressing from grimdark to nobledark. But they should be very careful with it, to make sure the nobledark transition is visibly and directly from the primarchs awakening.
Maybe the setting is slightly less wacky/ silly grim dark as it use to, but it hasn't become any less grim dark, honestly i feel the adding of a little hope into the universe has actually made it even more grim dark, as no there is that small glimmer of hope that ( probably) can never be reached.
you'll find very few people here believe you've ever read the early books to properly make the comparison you make and are, indeed pulling random opinion from source: a$$
I would counter and say that the mere existence of primaris undermines that point of view. They are hope. They are a technological advance. They have made the impossible possible. Part of what established grimdark is that perpetual state of just barely surviving. Scarcely maintaining what you have much less creating anything new. The idea that your characters, your crazy last stands on the table top are merely staving off defeat and not granting victory. There is no time for peace. No respite. No forgiveness. There is only war.
I will say one thing however, and that's that sometimes, in order to do a grim story we'll, you need to give the characters and readers a sense of hope first, so you can dash it later. You need to make them feel safe, so you can show them true terror. You need to depict characters rising, glorious and full of honour, so that their fall can carry the full weight of tragedy. So long as the light within the setting only exists to give weight to the darkness, it doesn't betray the setting. Whether or not that's what game's workshop is actually doing? Well🐸
Agreed. I was hitting on mostly on the setting of 40k from lore and art because without the base of the setting or if anything is contradicting the setting entirely then the setting is not what it originally was. What you brought up is pretty valid but that has to come with good writing and execution with proper knowledge of 40k (as in the old one as I stated), which unfortunally I don't see that often as of recent books. I can only speak from Horus heresy books and a good example is the starter book like Horus rising, false gods, Fulgrim, Eisenstein. Very well crafted books to hook you in and makes the times start to get dark. With what you brought up I can think of Rynn's world and as I stated in the video the ambush in Naxos, the only I didn't mention which was my mistake, it was that the people were praising the Iron snakes as their saviours but when the dark Eldar came back they were left as corpses to say it nicely lol because they were doing their own thing. So correct, you can have some hope in there to flip it after and have the weight of the character matter. The problem I encounter even here in the comments is, people are trying to speak out of their personal preference than objectively say well grim dark is this way and it makes sense as a setting. You will see well I don't want it to be 100 percent grim dark or 40k needs hope and whats wrong with primarchs coming back we need some hope in this dark galaxy, which is disregarding my statement I made in the video and missed my whole point. I appreciate your comment though thank you for bringing it up.
I think they should keep making stories from before the emperors/primarchs awakening. That way they can enforce the true gimdark vibe of the franchise. And make the whole reawakening even better. But then they should keep the story moving forward, and have the emperor reawaken slowly and the primarchs come back. Cus ultimately, its pretty boring if a story is stagnant. The setting can be stagnant, but the story shouldn't.
We had plenty of hopeful moments. They were Yarrick chasing Ghaz into the stars to finally bring him down. It was Creed throwing back the legions of chaos one more day. It was the Ultramarines defeating the Tyranids and saving Macragge. It was the Tanith 1st and Only walking off yet another battlefield with their lives. The idea that 40k didnt have moments of 'hope' and actually needed some is one of the biggest damn 'I never read/understood the setting' signposts you could see and I'm sick of people saying it.
Imperium was so large, so bloated, can barely keep track of how many worlds/taxes/space marine chapter were out there- -manage to deliver primaris space marine to every chapter out there ever. Get out of here, no way this kind of logistic exists.
@@moweu -take a look at the list of all space marine chapters. Now try to contact each and every one of them by sailing through HELL with a 10~1000 years delay, and a high chance of your package being devour by warp storms. -it took imperium forever to realize krieg, badab has gone rogue. Or the entire civilization of TAU existed. - delivery them by custodes and sister of silence, both of which are previous few manpower -if you deliver them by great crusade 2 boogaloo, congrats your brand new primaris reinforcement all get KIA before they can reach the intended chapter, or like 3 of them survive the intensity of battles. -remember that list of space marine chapter? Thanks to warp communication it’s now a list of outdated information, good luck finding their current whereabouts. It stands to reason space marine chapter usually act on its best interest locally, because realistically Terra can’t issue command/supply/ammunition to everyone of them anymore
People really forget this isn’t the first time 40k has changed. Notice how this guy never mentioned 1st or 2nd ed and how goofy that was. Like, parody levels of grim dark. 3rd ed and 4th ed brought it to a more believable level. But yea idk, my opinion is that stuff changes. If WH40K stays the same, it’s a guaranteed death. If WH40K does change, it might upset a lot of people, but it can continue and keep going. Idk. Food for thought. I’m not even disagreeing. I’m just saying, my perspective as a super casual
@@stuglife5514 honestly yeah, 40k is so big you really arent forced to indulge in any one piece of it, you could play games, write, and read stories, paint figurines, and just generally consume content from which ever ed you prefer, that's just the nature of media, sure it sucks if it goes in a direction you dont prefer, but you can simply not consume that content, and boom it doesn't exist Maybe its due to being a writer myself, having no issue with seperating pieces of media, and coming up with head cannon far cooler imo then what's been established when a shit writer takes the helm, ontop of seeing 40k more as a setting where billions of book worthy events are happen at any one time, rather then a story with a main character and a start and finish such, so maybe thats why i dont take issue, as traversing the 40k timeline is sort of apart of the fun, i dont feel forced to keep up with the latest stuff, if a writer fails to make a story how i view 40k i'll simply stop reading and read something else that DOES scratch that itch, cuz the market for comedically grim dark, more gritty grim dark, and lighter grim dark will all exist, and i think can exist in unison
im doing my part as someone relatively new to 40k by playing 5th edition rules on tabletop simulator and 3d printing minis rules are not only better but theyre way more straight forward and easier to grasp than 10th edition
I don't think the wider audience is the main reason why GW is doing what they are doing. Don't get me wrong: It is partially true, sure. However, the reason for this goes way back to 2015. They are doing the things they do, because they are trying to turn Warhammer 40k into Age of Sigmar in Space. This is evident in the rules where 8th edition and after's core rules is just watered down Age of Sigmar. Command points, the relic system and the like all come from Age of Sigmar. When GW used Warhammer Fantasy as a sacrificial lamb in 2015, the feedback was universally negative. They were also going to do the same with 40k with Wrath of Magnus and The Gathering Storm but because AoS was so negatively recieved they instead opted to the boiling frog effect with 40k. Primaris Space Marines are Sci-fi Stormcast Eternals and I'm dying on this hill. Think about it: The Primaris are two wound models with overly specialised units. Just like The Stormcast are. The reason why nothing seems to become of anything in the New Lore is because GW is artificially keeping the Imperium alive when in reality they should be actively getting decimated on all fronts by Chaos, Necrons and the Tyranids while the Orks and the Eldar do nothing. (Because the former is funny RNG faction and the latter because GW hates them.) GW cannot afford another End Times because it would hurt their sales. Now I am entering into the Conspiracy theory territory. Stay with me, what if, just what if: Ynnead was to unite all of the Eldar under it's banner and he was to serve the role of Nagash? There, you have AoS' Grand Alliance Death. Wouldn't one argue that Roboute is one of the more reasonable primarchs and don't the Primaris Mark X armour also kinda look like T'au armour? There you go: Grand Alliance Order. The Orks and the Tyranids were waging a huge battle in Octarius, so I'm spitballing here: What if, the Tyranid Hive Mind and the Ork Waaagh! Energy Merged into one due to Warp Chicanery? There you go: Grand Alliance Destruction. TL;DR: Although the Wider Audience Fallacy is partially why GW is doing what they are doing, but also to turn Warhammer 40k into Age of Sigmar in Space. Because they realised with Fantasy that they have to be more subtle about it.
I suspect that if AoS V1 had been more successful then the initial characterisation of the Primaris Marines as being more rational and less superstitious than the "firstborn", as well as less flawed on a genetic level would've stuck. It just seems obvious to me that GW wants to remake Space Marines into secular stormtroopers fighting to restore science and reason in a benighted galaxy. Unless GWs goal is to make obnoxious atheists the new face of Imperial evil then I think it's a comically stupid idea, but it does seem like there's a lot of people in the fandom who think that all it would take to make the IoM the goodies is for their underlying motivations to change. "For Science" instead of "For The Emperor" is enough to make a hero out of an authoritarian.
@@Culexus101 If AoS V1 was actually successful, they would have also killed 40k with it's own End Times. GW with 40k is like George R. R. Martin with A Song of Ice and Fire: They are absolutely sick and tired of it, look at their own IP and fans with complete and utter contempt and would rather have an AoS in Space.
P.S. I think The Eldar United Under Nagash and the Necrons would team up because "Chaos is the Greater Enemy." Effectively, turning both Ynnead and The Silent King into Nagash.
@@TheNamelessScholarOfficial That's the first time I've heard it suggested that G.R.R.M doesn't like the fans of ASoIaF/GoT, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. GRRM is a perfect example of a politically motivated progressive fantasy/sci fi author who's goal with a setting like GoT is partially to disabuse people of their love of idealised visions of medieval society by depicting it in an unflattering way. The problem is that that kind of show, don't tell style is a lot like satire, sometimes people miss the intended message and end up loving the setting just as they would something like LotR. So if GRRM sees that a lot of GoT fans have missed the message he was trying to get across then I could see that causing someone like him to resent his own fans. He assumed too much from them and they let him down. 40k fit's into the same box that GoT does. It shows a horrible world that is the result of 10,000 years of authoritarianism, out of control bureaucracy, and theocratic madness and GW now expects us to draw the "right" conclusion...when it suits them, because GW has been guilty of muddying the waters plenty of the years, especially around marines. Based on interviews I've watched and read over the years my sense with 40k is that the original writers looked at the inhabitants of M41 with a great deal of pity, they were victims of circumstance who were suffering the fallout of poor decisions made millennia ago. They were "bad" by our standards but it's easy to be "good" when you're the product of societies that are still nominally based on enlightenment values. I'm not much of a moral relativist but I'm smart enough to not be too judgemental towards people who lived decades, centuries, or millennia ago because I can't be sure that I wouldn't have been like them if I'd grown up in their world. I think part of 40k problem now is that the writers have fallen out of love with that style of writing. It's too ambiguous and open to interpretation. Lot's of fans just take it for granted that the IoM is a necessary evil, others see it as holding humanity back, few see it as both. So 40k needs to be remodelled into a setting that promotes good values directly instead of promoting good values indirectly by making bad values look bad by showing the negative results in all their grim darkness. They're basically trying to turn a setting like GoT into LotR and hoping not enough people will notice or care.
@@Rompstirdg Congrats on not paying attention and trying to straw man me because they do relate with each other and I have made it clear why is that the case.
@@TheNellop I’m not trying to 'strawman' you; this is just a TH-cam comment. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean it's automatically an attack on you as a person. In fact, I didn't mention your character once, so that’s a very apt thing to say. I understand what you were trying to say; I just completely disagreed with you and thought the connection didn’t make sense nothing deeper.
I recommend checking out the warhammer crime and warhammer horror book labels in the black library. Stories are usually of normal people trying to live in the 41st millennium and so they keep a much more bleak grim dark tone.
@Red_Crows I appreciate your recommendation, but Ill have to pass not because of ignoring that those stories might be true but I have been convinced most stories in before the fall of cadia were better and anything made after that is either meh or trash. I can say when it comes in general with video games and movies but thats a different topic. That's my honesty when it comes to this. They tried to do another horus heresy but in 40k and it failed hard, they tried to some how keep it grim dark meanwhile they changed the whole setting being the pure opposite of what 40k was meant to be. What is interesting when it comes to 40k in general? War. Mostly men like me like the war like the action and more. But too often people defocus way too much of yeah yeah we have war lets get to something out of it which devalues what 40k was meant to be "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war". Of course from time to time it is interesting to see other world perspectives outside of that scope. A good example is the book called the Men of Iron. Rynns world, The grey knight omnibus, Malodrax, Deaths sky black sun. Are the books in before the fall of cadia that succeeded well, why? 1 they make sense in the 40k universe of grimdark by definition and 2 its good books personally, plus the art style reflects of those covers make it more gritty and dark. I'll see later down the line if its worth it but I have some books in my list I have to read so I am quite full when it comes to reading stuff lol.
@ArminaticsVoiceArtist Not sure if you were aware lore wise but Necrons were different in 3rd ed and I think just around 5th edition is where they changed them entirely. So instead of them defeating the ctan, they were enslaved by them, for all eternity but still went to sleep and all that. They dont talk and I personally like that because it has that nice setting of a race being traped forever without ever knowing their former selfs.
@@TheNellop Yeah I knew that to some extend thanks. I still like them having personality a bit more. The twice dead king series was great but I see the appeal of them being trapped inside too. I just feel like atleast for the warriors the art could look more raw and broken. Like they are mindless but look so bland now. That one art piece looks like they are the cheapest and most mindless trapped creatures. Only killing as their lords command. It looks more tragic.
@@ArminaticsVoiceArtist That is fair enough, my brain is more focused of ok does this make it grim dark yes-no and why. I would still go with 3rd ed Necrons as they are silent automatons that speak in binary code controlled by ctan and they will keep coming endlessly plus resurrect from the dead. I used to like the new necrons but the more I look into it as for in the context making things grim dark. Making necrons have no personality is far more grim that is because they used to be living beings even the leaders but all that is lost from their desperate gamble and they will never come back to be normal again. And in the eyes of anyone except eldar, they are just monsters that want to delete the galaxy. I like that version and that's just me.
@@TheNellop Thats fair I just find that them having personalities offers a different take on their form of immortality. Body dysmorphia, the corruption of the mind and the longing for flesh. Which is why I love oltyx aka Valgul the Bone King and the flayers. But I like your take too
You legitimately had a solid argument until you reached 10:00 and listed AndyPants. Like, yeah, the bleakness and grimdark parts of 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th editions were pretty much all removed come Primaris in 8th. I was unhappy with as much as the next warhammer fan. But saying that the issue is 'diversifying' is just being afraid of something you can't explain properly. The reason Primaris sucked so bad was because it was HORRIBLY written, simple as. In fact, have you seen the earlier years of 40k? With the Slaaneshi noise marines that wielded guitars and wore rainbows? The OG Salamander's paint job? Warhammer, whether you like it or not, has always had a small bit of either wit or humor lying beneath the rubble of despair. It's just now they've embraced it more than the edgy teenage phase of everyone dies, boo hoo. To me, it feels less like Warhammer has been driven into the ground and more that it's started embracing who it is. It is depressing, yes, but it can also be goofy. Cain is a great example, and so is The Infinite and the Divine. I do miss what 40k was, but I celebrate what it has become.
There is a massive difference between a small bit of either wit or humor lying beneath the rubble of despair and a small bit of despair lying beneath a big rubble of humor.
@@plmokm33 And perspective makes all the difference. What you're looking for often is what you end up finding, but flies are more noticeable in good food than shit.
Pretty much how I see it though I'm more in the camp of "Why didn't they just resize space marines?". Primaris was good for Warhammer from a business prospective. Long time die hard fans already bought everything they could have ever needed and the hobby was stagnating. Stock was sitting at £8-£9 a share at the beginning of 2017 (the year Primaris was released) by the end of the year it more than doubled, by the end of 2018 it doubled again, we see the hype die down a little, but over the course of two years it almost doubled again, and then 2020 the pandemic hit. We see a dip... £45 a share down from £70. Then it skyrockets to £114 a share January 2021 reaching a high of £120 a share by September 2021. There was extended dip as the pandemic started to strain the company then after it was over it gained and became steady at around £90-£100 a share at a rough average. The years before Primaris GW stock sold for £5 a share on average from 1996 to mid 2016. Some will say change will be the down fall of GW is a take they are free to have and hell it might happen in the long term, but as of now it doesn't seem to be slowing GW down at all. Anyways with all that money it a damn shame they can't hire better artist and 3d model specialist after all the greats retired. Just like you I miss the Grimdark of old and I cope buy collecting way to much metal models, books, magazines, codexes, rule books, specialist games, and more from that era. It's what brought me into the hobby and I surround myself with it. Some new stuff I love and some new stuff I don't, but it doesn't bother me because I have the stuff I cherish.
@@FrostbiteDigital AndyPants isn't wrong in the big picture. He is smart enough to identify when something is wrong. However, he keeps misattributing the symptoms to 'woke' and not the fact that the games are just horribly written. The reason that so many games nowadays feel terrible isn't just because the people who are writing it are trying to be as 'inclusive' as possible, overlooking telling a genuinely good story, because they genuinely fucking suck at writing anything with any sort of substance. There are still good games that tell good stories, and they include some form of exploring one's identity. Just look at games like Elden Ring, Warframe, Hades, or Destiny 2.
As a dark eldar player I’m just happy my lore hasn’t been changed too much. Lord knows we don’t need vect revealing the only reason he’s so evil is because he was bullied as a kid or some shit
For this messure, I really recommend you the Warhammer 40k RPG's from the 2000's. Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Only War. You can stick only to the lore and the art and you can see how it's so different from today. I also recommend you Eisenhorn and Ravenor novels, really good stuff and the Eisenhorn novels were thought as the intro to the 'civil world' of 40k... And you can assume that's not pretty. I really miss that era (I'm 31 but I began playing 40k in the change between 3rd and 4th edition... Altough I was more of a WH fantasy fan). I'm with you that modern 40k feels so different, the art, the narrative... is soulless.
Man, I was a fan of the setting since about 2005 when I played first Dawn of War. I was in love with black and white, "rugged" artwork in the booklet that came with the video game that was taken stright from codices of 3rd edition, the random quotes like "suffer not the witch to live" were so damn cool and metal. The Dreadnoughts being piloted by mortaly wounded marines kept alive to wage war eteranlly was so awesome and mindblowing to my 10 year old ass. And the game was godlike tier so it helped a lot with getting me into the setting. I got into tabletop right at the tail end of 8th edition, because one of my friends was painting figurines for some years. I was a bit disapointed with pulling the primaris out of Cawls cyber-ass and colorful art. And as the 9th edition dropped I was more and more frustrated not only with the game itself but with more and more colorful and "clean" artstyle and turning down of the grimdarkness. Now after female custodes Im just done man. They are trying to ruin the setting by "appealing to the wider audience". The Imperium is now slowly contorted into the good guys. Primarch are coming back left and right when they should be just legends or even rumours of a bygone era. The less said about the neo Squats in starcraft suits the better... Necrons are suddenly able to speak and there is a book where two necron lords are pulling pranks on eachother or something? Hell even models themselves are becoming cleaner, symmetrical, and half of them have tactical rocks on their bases for some reason. And paradocsically because they have so much detail it becomes a chore to paint them. God I was so tired when I was painting 20 cadian shock troopers from Cadia Stands box. I feel like Im playing with toy soldiers, very pretty but designed by commite toy soldiers insted of leading armies of cool characters. I've bought most of the 3rd edition codices just for art and lore. It was peak of the game when it comes to that. It was grimdark but there was this understanding between GW and players that it's not that serious and it had charm and "soul".
Original Warhammer creators grew up with Heavy Metal magazine (and music), sword & sorcery / pulp novels, Tolkien, love for history. Contemporary Warhammer creators grew up with Disney Marvel, World of Warcraft and videogames. I'll leave it to everyone's own interpretation which generation had better source of inspiration
No. Contemporary warhammer creators grew up with Dune and the recent social interest in religion. Which explains why you see primarchs like guilleman being written as roman emperors rather than curze edgelords.
40k is slowly getting the Star Wars treatment. Star Wars originally was also a very dark setting, show throughout the expanded universe. But after being sold to Disney it became more and more sterilized to appeal to everyone and lost almost all of the original charm of what made Star Wars special. 40k is going through that same process slowly.
I don't know how else to say this but, at least as someone who's been reading a lot of stuff old and new, I just can't agree with this video. Storm of Iron was definitely in this imagined "before everything was ruined by the woke SJWs" era and it was less grimdark than Skittarius, which is definitely of the newer era. Compared to just about any other major IP, 40K is still the grimmest and darkest that I've read. Ffs Game of Thrones and Witcher is pussy shit compared to 40K's brutality. Even in the sections of new lore where no one dies, it's still crushingly brutal. Really sounds to me like the anti-sjws got into your head and now you can't look at this property without seeing all the things they want you to see, which is majorly impacting your ability to enjoy what's right in front of you.
The Big Dakka is a good story tho. Also granted I have only gotten in this hobby 2 years ago and I mainly due books or games but despite the whole primarch thing what else were they supposed to do? Before Guilliman returned there was nothing. it was a constant stream of stories that boil down to "the Imperium is a rotting carcass of an empire that will soon fail" and we never see that. We never see the Imperium die out because they are the protagonists so without them there wouldn't be any 40k. You can't have the lore remain in that state because then why would anyone bother to read a book since they would know it wouldn't matter to the story. So, besides The Primarchs returning what other plot could they use to push the story forward? The Tyranids? Half of the races back then would rather kill each other then help one another fight a common foe. Chaos getting stronger? Same shit with the Tyranids and we all saw how The End Times were received. So bringing back Guilliman was the only way to revive this dead setting.
Hot take: inclusion and diversity line up perfectly with grimdark because every human - regardless of race, gender and sexual orientation is considered canon fodder in the Emperium. A Commissar could give two squirts about who a guardsman is attracted to, they just care achieving goals. So on that note - I think 40k should be even more inclusive.
So long as that is kept offscreen and out of books, lore, miniatures and everything that says Warhammer, then I very much agree with you. If commissars don't give a fuck about your race, sexuality, etc. then that doesn't need to be shown or written about because the setting of Warhammer isn't about inclusivity, it's about nihilism and hopelessness, Just like you said.
This is something I've been worried about even as a newer fan. I got into the setting back in 2018 as a former star wars fan. So even though I didn't have prior knowledge of the setting I could tell when they were doing something stupid because well I'd seen it before. Heck I didn't even like the Primaris thing when I found out about it and that we before I even knew about the controversy. I have noticed the setting doesn't feel as grim dark as it should sometimes. I remember watching Luetin's video on the Daemonculaba a few years ago when it came out and that made me commit to the setting. I really fell in love with 40k because of that and read everything I could get my hands on. I have noticed this weird disconnect in tone between some of the lore but I kind of just thought that was the norm, like simple variation of the writers. I mean I still enjoy the setting more than I enjoy star wars right now, seriously you haven't seen terrible until you've seen Disney Star Wars. Even current 40k is such a step up in quality compared to that. However, I'd prefer it stop moving in the direction that it is. These periods of hope in 40k that we're seeing with the Primarchs returning I keep expecting the other shoe to drop. Like, dangling hope in front of you only to drop you into a viper pit, making that despair feel that much greater. But that doesn't seem to be what's going to happen. Like, I wish that if they were going to being a Primarch back is they should be a detriment to the imperium rather than a help.
The "memefication" of the 40k setting and the multiplication of "lore channel" that try to push a very vulgarized version of the lore did (and is doing) more damage to the 40k lore than GW could ever have. People like majorkill or bricky did (and keep doing) untold damage to perception of 40k by presenting very stupid and reductive visions of the setting. Bricky in particular has become the "entry point" for many tourists with his constant barrage of videos poorly describing the setting in a way that would be palatable for zoomers.
I've been playing GW games since the late 80's, I started with Dark Future. 40k back then is completely different to what 40K was during the 3rd to 7th edition period. 8th to the current period is different in overall feel. I think this boils down to how the hobby is a reflection of the zeitgeist of those times. For example, Mordheim just wouldn’t work now, as that tapped into the palatable fear of passing into a new millennium, Y2K and all the crazy dooms day cults that were around back then. Then, we have to factor in how most of not all of the old guard have left GW. Those who are at the helm have a separation from why certain things were done, and may not have even been alive to experience the real world influences, so will have a disconect. Then there is how GW has morphed into a 'lifestyle' brand (scented candles anyone), with a hobby attached, which is making it a lot of money. The GW of now is a far cry from. The old GW that was helmed by metal heads, who were interested in literature and history.
I'm not huge into Warhammer, but I feel like I've seen this before... I've been playing Magic the Gathering for a while, it's in a similar situation. It's a general consensus in the community that the state of the game is deeply concerning, everything about the flavor, the setting, the new stories, the new products. How they handled previous and stablished lore, it's legacy, it's meaning. It feels like it was all flushed down the toilet in favor of short term gains and need for profit. They play it safe, disregard the hardcore fans, tries to appeal to everyone, and forget what it was all about. It draws more money than ever but it's soul is not there anymore, no essence, just a husk, an empty shell. Is hard to greet new players, they come exited for the new stuff and you stand there thinking "Man, if only you were here when they really cared. You missed out...".
@@gabrielalexanderkemp one of the biggest critics on how GW is going soft, but since no one watches him they dont know he's (mostly) on the average hobbyists side
4:13 i would say that is like half the explanation of what grim dark is, in the end i would add something like for a necessary reason or a valid justification rather then being dark for the sake of it or else it would just be grim derp
Yep. A trend I've noticed is that franchises are no longer allowed to be mature. Mature in the sense of having elements that make people uncomfortable. We can have gore, but cleavage?! No no no, Miss, you put those disgusting breastuses away! It shows how sanitized everything is now.
I agree and I’ll add on my own lil personal pet peeve with the T’au. The concept of the T’au being the actual good guys (less brain-washing and more or less a more traditional empire that wanted to unite various races under one banner) and being utterly useless in the setting is… arguably more Grim-Dark than them being a miniature imperium the entire time.
I agree and disagree with your take. (TLDR, a little hope is a good thing, zero hope isn't). In my opinion, by the definition you use, true grimdark doesn't make a particularly compelling story because it leaves no room for plot. If you need there to be zero hope, then there will be no incentive for the characters to try to improve their lot and you'll end up with no narrative, just setting. I got into 40K at the beginning of 6th edition and this was the situation the IP was in. I was hooked by the art style and the depth of the lore, but I wished the story would go somewhere. It was a setting that captivated my imagination, but my imagination would always think of places that the story could go. When they decided to bring back the Primarchs, I thought that was a good decision by GW because it allowed the setting to have a plot and narrative progression. Let me be clear, you can have a little bit of hope and still have a very dark setting and tone and I think that's the perfect place for the setting to be. Is this the place 40k is in or the place I think it's going? No. They're brightening it up too much and slowly taking the uniqueness out to cater to normies. While I think bringing the Primarchs back was good, I think the primaris marines are lame, tacky and pointless, Belisarius Cawl is a bit of a Mary Sue (though hardly the first or only Mary Sue in the setting) and 21st century, left-wing political sensibilities have no place in the Imperium of Man.
@bloodeagle7668 Right I see this too often comments in this area. Of course I didn't mention in the video because I thought it didn't need explaining but I was proven wrong. People don't understand between the difference of setting and story. They are two separate things. I argue about the setting that has to be consistent with its rules that has set its self, you are implying about story that needs to move forward to make it interesting. Two different things. Setting is like the background with its rules implied, yes there's no hope if we go by grimdarks definition. not my definition I go for. look on google search it defines well what grimdark is. The story is a layer in front of the setting playing around on its set rules. But does that mean the characters in the story should not have hope, no. The characters are themselves and play along with the rules applied in the setting. The character has a little hope, surviving as much as it can to help people around and it might be killed harshly on the next to tell the viewer that this setting does not sugar coat it. The problem I see is people too often try to imply the story AS the setting and not the other way around.
@@TheNellop I understand that setting and story are two different things, but they effect each other. Story choices influence the setting and the setting limits what story choices make sense. For instance, one of the gripes you bring up is that in the new lore, the Imperium has gained some avenues for progress, both on the battlefield (through the return of the Primarchs) and technologically (through technologies introduced by Belisarius Cawl). I see the introduction of new characters, particularly POV characters like Guilliman, the Lion and Cawl as story choices more than setting choices. Your argument, as I understand it, is that the introduction of these characters makes the setting less Grimdark because Primarchs are OP characters that aren't quite as challenged by the setting. To me, seeing the factions and characters shift to adapt to the presence of the new characters represents interesting development and a good direction for the story. I do think that the setting being dark, gritty and edgy is a big part of the charm of 40k, but also that keeping the lore as Grimdark as it was in 3rd edition limits the creative choices for the story too much.
@@bloodeagle7668 Correct and I disagree. 3rd and 4th ed do well and being consistent the setting of 40k. You play chess and you're limited of what you can do with the pieces but you can play different, hundreds of times. When there's limitations it makes the person work more with proper care they will do much more than someone who has unlimited because at that point they don't try and do the least amount of effort. The problem with the whole 8th ed with Cawl Guilliman and other stuff. The story not only didn't get challenged they purely contradict the setting entirely. Because it contradicts the setting it is no longer grimdark because now you have progress in technology from a convenient smart guy shoved in there because why not, primaris, primarchs coming back because gw wanted money. You cant have progress of story and not follow the setting because once you contradict that setting then the setting is not the same. I have seen comments say well its more of nobledark than grimdark. which I would be fine with it.......but problem they contradict that on 8th,9th, 10th ed codex still implying its still grimdark meanwhile in 9th ed trailer in the end saying a new dark age which contradicts the codexes. I would agree if it was a different setting but the problem is GW and the people who bought into it LIE to themselves. That is my major problem with these people and they don't do their homework to make from old to new comparison. Ill be honest GW should've killed 40k and start a new ip like what they did with fantasy than dangling its corpse and pretend that its grimdark. Its not. I enjoy this chat thanks for the comment my man. 🍻
@@TheNellop Not much more I can say here without repeating myself. We just have slightly different visions of what the right place for 40k is. I agree with some of your points about the new lore but I can't agree with all of them because some of what I see also looks like legitimately good stories to me and I don't think the entire IP is ruined, it just needs a course correction. Cheers man🍻 thanks for the discussion. I appreciate you replying to my comment.
I remember years and years ago hearing about 40k and going "wow, that's dark as hell for no reason. Guess it's just not for me" and then a few years after that going "wow, this is cool as hell. What the hell happened?"
@@honkhonk8009 Absolutely, and there is no guarantee this current state of resurgence will last, and even if it does who's to say things would move out of NobleDark? Ultimately I think 40k should never be truly NobleBright though the odd moment here and there is cool (though really these moments are usually more GrimBright considering the wider context)
Now I'm beggining to know why most nonames youtube channels are only making doomer videos about wokes etc.... A shiity youtube channels with 700 subs and almost 40.000 views.... Jeez what a shitty new youtube meta
I can't stand the Primaris. Even if you ignore all the other issues with them I just think their armor design makes them look like Buzz Lightyear, which is just about the furthest you can get from Grimdark. I got into the hobby properly at the start of 6th edition Fantasy and 4th edition 40k. The art, setting and feeling of older warhammer is just vastly superior in my opinion. I've pretty much decided to ignore anything released after those editions and I buy most of my models 2nd hand.
I like the setting of 40k with warp and it's not-magic and weird tech-churches and superhuman fighting horrors beyond our comprehension, but i don't like hopeless stories, i'm not saying about saving the galaxy, but improve life of one planet, and then try to help other planet, and if you keep doing it, and other keep trying it, then maybe, just maybe you together will manage prevention of the Imperium from total decay, no matter how shit the galaxy is there is always a reason to try make it a little better. Is there a place for a story like this, can there be a character with this mindset, or is it to hopeful for warhammer? Well i guess i am a poser, so my opinion is invalid.
Technically I have a discord server but it hasnt been active for a while but you are welcome to join in. Thank you for letting me know about the link it should be updated now.
14:07 you know, orks are pretty strong, from being able to rip space marines apart with their bare hands to even cutting them in half vertically with an axe swing
Hey man , as someone whose first contact with 40k was 4TH Edition and been subsecuently playing since 5th thorugh current edition , I can confirm Warhammer 40.000 was waaaay better back in the day , want to know why , because it was a cult classic for a niche group of people , even tho Warhammer as a whole was fairly popular . It was unapologeticly edgy and violent ( yes warhammer is still violent , but not cosmic horror violent ) , but also pretty introspective , best example of this would be Hellsreach (I could elaborate on this but would take too long ) . I can only say Warhammer 40k back in the day felt like Hellsreach and current 40k feels like Dark Imperium . I myself like the Primaris Sculpts and I like how they simplyfied the rules for a quick game , but also I will say , 40k lost part of its identity in the process. Thas why modern 40k is such a hit or miss. Finally I would say Im glad that I found this chanel and im glad that someone who started in 8th revisited the older editions . Keep up the good work yove got a new sub !
I’ve been with the hobby for 25+- years, I have lived past and present GW and I think you are being incredibly subjective with what you are choosing to focus on in past and present GW. You have made your mind up and are just looking for things to bolster your opinion. It’s probably time for you to move on, because you can’t wind the clock back (and if you could, from what you are saying here you wouldn’t find the GW you think you remember).
I don't know the older stuff but if i were to make that comparison it would be like comparing it to old school 2000ad comics. So A.B.C Warriors, Nemesis/Torquemada, Judge Dredd when Judge Cal was in charge and maybe even The Authority comic books (was it Dark horse comics? I forget) first annual Relentless and then compare it to your average Marvel movie. Btw seriously check out old A.B.C Warriors and Nemesis/Torquemada series if you want grim dark. Human lives are nothing there and the cult like worship of Torquemada rivals even the worship of the emperor. Also, the art is fantastic and super gritty. Judge Dredd is also pretty grim with him just maiming people for dropping litter or something. That book The Authority is like Justice League if they decided that it would be easier to just kill their opponents rather than lock them up to escape again 5 minutes later. Also, you see what the world would be like if dictators/ terrorists could just create superhumans as weapons rather than use bombs (hint, whole recognisable cities getting wiped out in an afternoon with no deus ex machina to bring them back 😅)
40k is still pretty grim dark, as much as everyone loves to dump on the primaris marines in the lore and canon they still die left and right. Sure they are a better version of the space marines (pretty much confirmed the raptors project the Emperor gave to corax before alpha legion corrupting it). But its still very much a losing battle, just more slowly and everything is still folding in all at once on the Impeurium.
If you like the grim dark feel of 3/4 edition, you should read the Inquisitor game rulebook. It was a larger scale game, but it had the absolute darkest lore i can remember.
primaris marines are lore breaking. the emperor explicitly forbid gene alterations. there is exactly zero chance guilimen would ignore that. as far as im concerned it didnt happen. it breaks canon therefore it is not canon. 40k will always be the early 40k to me. i still have my original copy of rogue trader and i love the world they built back then. the new stuff is just flat and dead. its 40k by comity.
If your hobby gets big then your hobby is going to lose its soul and die
Cannot say this is false at all, but at the same time it's pretty much impossible to control your IP to stay niche while whishing for the community to expand and hoping for all of it to be profitable long term on top of that. GW is getting pretty scummy for sure, and could have mitigated the pitfalls the franchise has been diving into, but the way things are right now is just the result of almost any successfully growing product/company/IP after that many years imho.
Bruh just read red rising or Xelee sequence.
But the problem is 40K has always been massive like at no point what I consider 40k a niche hobby it’s literally one of the big franchises of sci-fi and has a monopoly over the wargame table top market how can peopleconsider this niche? and I’ve been a 40K fan for a long time.
@@reddevil3277 How much of the general public do you actually think are into table top miniatures? People know of franchises like Star Wars and Star Trek even by passing. Warhammer has always been relatively niche.
@@Darthpsychonis Star Wars and Star Trek are literal global blockbusters the Warhammer isn’t popular to that extent but it is incredibly popular within sci-fi fantasy and gaming, and it’s been that way for almost a decade, honestly in my opinion the table top is niece but the franchise isn’t I’ve always known people in real life who know 40K or at least heard or seen a reference to it without knowing the context almost everyone seen a space marine nowadays that shit is popular as a halo Spartan
I can think of anything more grimdark than charging $10 for the smallest game model
Charging $15 and a convenience fee.
@@ElGreco15 and we need a transport fee some taxes along the way and make some BS why there is another price increase.
@@TheNellop 20% gratuity for allowing you to play
@@ElGreco15 When done playing, you must buy another boxset which will cost you extra.
@@TheNellop We should stop. I think the marketing team at GW is taking notes.
What I find funny is that people feel offended that the demonculaba shows what chaos is that’s like wanting to watch a film about the horror of Germany during world war 2 and getting offended that the Nazi rape and kill. They are bad guys they are not supposed be nice people that’s why I hate when people say the demonculaba was bad when the entire point of the book was to show how evil the iron warriors are.
>Iron warriors infamous for their lack of compassion and dark pragmatism
>Add chaos into the fucking mix
>They kidnap women and put them into some of the worst fates in 40k
>Somehow vouched as the good guys?
Did people read the book fucking upside down?
Okay, this argument is stupid. Most people don't complain about the Daemonculaba because it makes chaos evil, they complain about it because of just how excessively over the top and exploitive it feels. Whether you agree or disagree on that notion is up to you, but don't twist people's words.
@@Alzir-n9m >excessively over the top and exploitive
Yea thats 40k, kinda the point of the series
@@Alzir-n9m I really don't understand how you came to the conclusion that you would have to respond to a comment's response with pathetic reasoning, if we are taking into account that 40k is grim dark and has to be "excessively over the top and exploitive it feels." Thanks for reading, good afternoon.
@@xulmizzakrasnobroda3469 Thats literally the point of 40k, everyone is mercilessly exploited and killed.
Idk what else to tell you?
40K isn't the only franchise that has this problem for some reason there are a concerningly large amount of companies that think making their franchises worse and trying to use psychological tricks to get people's money is more profitable then actually making something good.
That’s because the people pushing for these changes hate the fan base and the source material, or are outright focusing on getting personal profits from social credit because that DEI stuff is hella addictive
Business plans have changed, as companies are trying to push for global markets. That's why 40k is now a cartoony & hopeful Star Wars marketed to every racial group & sexual orientation to get more fans to the hobby. Not with a specific product necessarily. 40k is a multi-media franchise after all.
@@samuelevander9823
Does this strategy work though?
Look up BlackRock and esg scores, that and the focus on short term gains over long term is why this is all happening.
Its cause they're publicly traded. And stock owners want profits. So start catering to everyone to sell more.
Consumerism and lazy hobbyists are just as culpable for the fall of 40k, it was awesome when people used it as a narrative setting and where every army was "Your Dudes" when people weren't afraid to have fun, be fluffy and creative. Then somewhere along the way metagaming took over and GW adjusted because they realized the money they could make shoveling product out the door to satiate "competitive" gaming scene.
Its always the "competitive" people obsessed with "tournament rules" that try hard and ruin the games for themselves. I saw a youtuber burnt out trying to catch up to the meta. What a tool. Ranked and Competitive modes are just because your lives are empty and miserable so they make hobbies their metric of progression in realspace.
as in every PVP centric thing, it's the competitive tryhards that ruin everything
I don't get what you mean by "lazy hobbyists".
Old 40k was a tragedy. One man's bold vision of a unified mankind crumbling into eternal war and him becoming the face of the most powerful and vicious church ever known despite seeking no worship. All by the hands of the very powers he sought to protect humanity from. There are no heroes, only despoilers in a vast, unforgiving, and mysterious galaxy.
#New40k, however, is like some freak hybrid of Warcraft and an MCU movie where the Imperium (which GW can't decide are the heroic defenders of humanity or a necessary evil) battles the cartoon villain forces of Chaos and equally cartoon villain Xenos in a universe with no room for interpretation.
You've hit the nail on the head. GW, for the love of all that is holy, DECIDE WHETHER THE IMPERIUM IS EVIL, OR AN ANTI-VILLAIN/ANTI-HERO! MAKE UP YOUR MIND ALREADY!
I'm so old that in my day we didn't even know what the Emps motivations were in creating the IoM. We were pretty confident he made the Space Marines and that the Horus Heresy happened in some form but for all we really knew Horus could've been the lesser of two evils during the Heresy and his reputation as the most evil man in history a product of the fact that the winners got to write the history books...
Rick Priestly described the average citizen of the IoM as having a "medieval mindset" back in 1987 when 40k was first released. I think that's important to remember when asking whether the IoM is good or bad, or somewhere in between. I mean, if the IoM is fascist like a lot of people say does that mean medieval Europe was also fascist? What about ancient Rome or the Byzantine Empire? I often describe 40k as a Medieval fantasy setting (In SPACE!!!) created by people who knew how crappy Medieval Europe was for most of the population. They knew how brutal the punishments were and how stifling the social order was for most people. It's not a rose tinted, idealised, or heroic vision of the past, the same knight who might flog a man half to death for failing to meet his tithe is also the person who keeps the area safe from brigands, so there's a lot of ambiguity there, and it's up to each person to judge whether they think the various trade offs are worth it.
Humans were always heroes and I will die on that hill.
@@Culexus101
They... kind of... didn't know how was it in the medieval europe. You have no Idea how many church-organised holidays with huuuuuge feast there were. Those old buggers had more free days than I have and I am free man in modern europe.
@@kronos661 Well that's where your own value judgements come into it. If extra feast days are enough to make you happy with being a peasant bound to labour on a single strip of land for your whole life then that's ok.
The 40k equivalent could be an indentured factory worker who inherited his fathers job on a production line and the only way out is death or attempting to run away, something that could lead to premature death either way. The cafeteria serves cheap grub and there are feast days every so often, so it's not all bad...
I hate the fact that so many people shit on the daemonculaba for being "too edgy", it perfectly encapsulates what 40k and the forces of chaos are horrific gruesome, cruel, disgusting and disturbing gw has slowly been turning chaos into these marvel tier mustache twirling villains and i hate it.
i just learned what those are, and i love it
gonna use them in my rogue trader campaign, and make my players feel uneasy...
that's gonna be great!
they wanted the grimdark setting - they are getting it
oh boy... and how they are getting it
bwahahahaa :D
@@Xingmey Hell yeah.
Please read that book, it wasn't that grimdark
Basically just boy scout ultramarines versus one moustache twirling villian
@@Keram-io8hv this comment just goes to show that no one even remembers what grimdark means even when someone literally gives them a definition of it.
@@funaccount7665 Sorry but bad guy from Black Skies Dead Sun Honshu was moustache twirling villian and your ultra dark Daemonculaba is one chapter
That was sp grimdaaaark
>Be me
>Never read a single 40k book
>Never owned a single model kit
>Barely know who the primarchs are
I'm what they call an "Expert"
Same
Who is "they"?
Primarchs are mid in any case
@@moweu Redditors
@@Th3Kingism that is not very specific
I like to call the problem "Horus-ification".
Basically, a lot of people who get into 40k do so by way of the Horus Heresy. This makes a lot of sense because HH is a very clean cut, accessible narrative. It has a focus on humanity, possesses a clear protagonist/antagonist, and has a clear beginning/middle/end that eases new people into the wider setting. I'd argue that this is a good thing, in and of itself, however, its success has spawned some rather dire consequences.
See, despite the beliefs of GW and a sizable portion of the fanbase believe, HH is not 40k. HH is a narrative, first and foremost, set outside of the 40k setting, and while it functions as a primer, it is restricted both by its degree of seperation from 40k-proper and the necessities of its narrative. This misunderstanding of the two properties has bled into the very fabric of 40k and altered it's fundamental focus.
In a desire to expand accessibility, GW has fundamentally shifted 40k away from being a setting, first and foremost, to being a narrative. This has meant introducing overarching progress to the setting which is degrading and dismantling the underlying framework bit by bit. Returning Primarchs, Primaris Marines, splitting the galaxy in two, and waking up the necrons are all symptomatic of this "forward" narrative push.
The Primarchs, in particular, are probably the most damaging of all. Their presence has co-opted the focus of the setting and set it down the path to an inevitable "End Times" incident. You can basically gauge the life expectancy of 40k as a property by how many Primarchs are back. Each one is another set closer to the Emperor "ascending" (which is the way they're dragging the all consuming narrative now), which will, by necessity, lead to GW nuking the setting and replacing it with a much more "open" and "corporate safe" property, like AoS.
Give it somewhere in the span of 10 years or so.
I agree. HH bleed into 40k too much. It should have been a time of half forgotten legends that only oldest chaos space marines can remember vaguely. Now it seems like the Heresy happened like a 100 years ago instead of 10k because everything revolves around primarchs again. Best lore came out of the times when the setting was focused on "current" events like war for Armageddon or the Badab war. 40k should remain a perpetually stagnant SETTING for people to tell stories within it's confines. And I think GW wanted to nuke 40k somewhere around 8th to 9th edition (like Fantasy) but the pandemic made them a boatload of money so they instead opted for dragging it out as long as they can.
@louisnall3102 that's just bad writing in general but think about it - if GW didn't want to push the narrative forward the problem would not exist.
@louisnall3102 The solution is pretty simple - localize storytelling.
40k, like Fantasy before it, is a setting in which smaller stories can be told within. You don't - and shouldn't - tell massive, galaxy-altering stories with 40k. Rather, you should be telling smaller stories with strong character or worldbuilding focuses.
You'd never know it reading more recent 40k fluff, but 40k is galaxy-spanning. Practically speaking, that means there are a lot of places to go and explore that extend beyond the dozen or so planets that are typically focused on. Does GW need a new model to sell or plotline for a book? No problem. Throw a dart at a map of the galaxy and start filling it out with stuff.
@louisnall3102 I agree with the last part. At a certain point if we just had like 20 years of "This very localized bad thing happened" I wouldn't care about the setting becuase at the end of the day I want something to shake up the world as a whole.
No it's not ending in 10 years Jesus
What really gets me is compared how terrifying the Necrons were during the Soul Drinkers books compared to how they are in current lore.
They went from being malicious shadows of a sentient race, barely showing hints of their former personalities underneath their brutal programming and all encompassing hatred of all life...to being bickering nobility...
They are both of those things. They are a FACTION. If the Guard can coexist with the Inquisition which can coexist with the Mechanicus, all under the banner of "The Imperium" I don’t see why the Necrons couldn’t.
"We got personalities now! Whatchu gonna do?"
"Become Pharoh again. What are you gonna do?"
"I'm gonna make an ork PISS IN MAH MOUTH!"
To be fair the only people who would have personality well were the nobles whom even then. Probably during the war in heaven had only the parts of your personality you need for war active.
Well now you know how Warcraft fans have been feeling lately... after wow release
Mi to think i am old enougth to play old warcraft 3 and even play warcraft 2 and to see what warcraft was to WOW that crap, yes the game was fun but how,
It's hard to remember Warcraft actually existed as an RTS series before WoW. And a series inspired, I think, by Warhammer Fantasy at that.
@@Man_Flippin_Pentagrams indeed, i mean i am old enougth to play and i know there are people who play in youtube but they dont know or watch it, also to think RTS was the simbol of PC gaems, RTS, free fligth simulation in shooters, or that PC gaming was extremly creative, know, when WOW came out, everinone wanted a wow, clone and now we have these industry everone presuing trends
What I liked most about early Tyranid lore was... when they harvested a planet... it was 'gone'. Sure; you could still visit but they took everything. The water, the minerals in the soil, and most of the air.
It added so much to the horror of the Tyranids. Even if they could be 'easily' defeated by astartes any planet taken was effectively gone.
Now? The authors wave their magic wands and important planets are terraformed back into shape in a hundred years.
Wait, since when were they able to terraform back their planets? That completely makes the Tyranids an inconvenience instead of an actual threat. Wth.
@@ahtheorangeit takes a fuck ass long time to revitalise planets.
Honestly I would've changed the primaris marines into a smaller and more expendable stock due to the Astartes slowly dying off, going rouge, joining chaos, or has gone missing.
This would've emphasized the desperation and inevitable death of the imperium...
Yes! Emphasize the desperation by showing them compromising on quality, allowing basically lesser versions for space marines for expediency.
This is much more harrowing and evocative of true grim dark than just constantly having bigger machines or whatever. It ruined it. It's dead to me.
After thinking about it for a bit, I think this "compromise for expediency" thing could be drawn out into so many storylines.
Have one of the new primaris marines discover that they're just bad copies, developing a crisis of conscience where he starts his own rebellion against his makers.
We could have done this all day, but now we're stuck with the GW primaris marines that are untouchable and therefore, boring.
@@matthiasthulman4058 Im sorry for your loss.
That would mean 40k dies early and it's not what GW wants
It kinda sorta doesn't, the imperium and/or humanity still lives on.
Personally I believe the imperium was a temporary thing to be replaced with some spiritual awakening or the webeay gate project until it was postponed by the heresy.
There is also this planned obsolescence going on with the super solider projects like the Thunder Warriors down to the lowly Astartes. It just comes to shoe that the emperors imperium wasn't built to last yet humanity will still adapt, change and evolve(or in this case devolve) into the circumstances they are in.
So yeah....the story will live on, with a more darker tone maybe?
15:50 you do not know how many people think that the Orkz are actually happy funny guys instead of the monsters that they actually are thanks to memes.
They are both.They are funny at the same time but terifying to fight.
It depends on who’s telling the story, if it’s someone fighting against orks then yes they’re fucking terrifying. If it’s a story through the eyes of an ork it’s just Jackass 5
If the setting is bright and the orks are happy then they are just silly orks.
If then the setting is portrayed dark and depressing but you have orks being happy then you have monsters which is fitting.
The orks are more or less in their character but its the setting around it that makes the orks intimidating.
I do agree that the memes have an effect on 40k and some people take it too literally, instead being of a ironic joke.
I did fell for it my self when I started 40k but later I do notice after reading some books it was either overinflated with fluff or outright wrong.
@@TheNellop I think the issue is the perception that people have where the orks just enjoy fighting in general rather than them being cruel and psychopathic which is more accurate
Eh, orkz are a comic relief in grimdark Warhammer. Everyone is like "im so serious, because im fighting for survival"
Meanwhile orkz have funny speech and just open their windows in space to let some fresh air in
They're funny guys if you look at it from outside. It's funny when someone says in serious voice "its killakanz!" Or tells someone "um, akchually its waaaagh, not wagh"
Of course, they are monsters, but only if you live in that world and deal with them
One reason why I love the IG (old) is a quote from DaW
"We do what we do best: we die, wedie standing"
Ah yes, the one sentence version of the back half of Pity The Guardsman. I do love it so.
You mean winter assault from dawn of war?
I'm not too sure if its "lost its grimdark" but I do think Warhammer in the early and mid 2000's was peak and I definitely don't like how GW is changing its lore. Again.
As I mention in the video which I would assume that you did.
If you ain't too sure, go and look at the old stuff and make a comparison with the new stuff. Make your own judgement and see for your self.
Are you judging it base on the lore or the art direction or even better both?
Don't take my word for it. I just want people to go and check these stuff and see if someone has stated similar argument like I did in the video is true.
If its false then why?
You ask yourself questions and while finding the answers that you seek. The more you mess around the more you find out.
@@TheNellop I feel like GW saw the modern trends, got too greedy for their own good, and are in a state of sanitization to break into the mainstream. Before this video, I didn't know how poorly the primaris change was written (I joined the hobby in Orktober of 2021). I predict that if GW will try to push for an LGBT progressive trend, their sales could (theoretically) peak and crash 2 weeks later because the modern far-left has an attention spam of a quarter of a second. After that, I will expect the hobby to be truly dead or an apology video.
@@BroodingEdgelord Most lore changes etc. are written very poorly by GW. Kinda feel like they are mandated or something, not liek the writers arent woek as f.
I remember being a Star Wars refugee (got out when George sold to Disney, knew what was coming) and coming to 40k and seeing how beautiful a story and universe it was. I remember thinking about how much it, in its own way, reminded me of SW during the glory days. Immediately following that thought was the realization that it would face the same fate as SW soon enough. I'm sad to be right.
You realize that you can still engage with the EU in Star Wars... right? Like it still exists. It's not like the whole franchise is just dead thanks to Disney's meddling. Hell, with fanfiction you can just write stories that go in the direction you want or feel are more in-line with the original vision.
See, this is what I never got about these kinds of, "My franchise's glory days are long gone," complaints. And I say this as a major Bungie era Halo fan in light of 343's massive retcons and the Halo show and the direction the current series has taken. Things like Project Daybreak exist, I can still choose to go with the idea that Forerunners are humans and that the Covenant is actually unknowingly genociding their gods thanks to the lies of the Prophets, I can completely ignore the Halo show (which is dead now thankfully) along with Master Cheeks, etc. As far as I'm concerned Halo ended at Reach officially, and where it went after that is up to fans.
So while on some level the series I love is past its official glory days thanks to 343 and Microsoft (and should have ended at 3 since Bungie was done with it), unofficially it's nowhere near that bad. Because I can just choose to discard the changes I dislike. Same thing goes for Doctor Who or any series really.
@@am-ranth8955 Yes you can engage in the extended universe. But it becomes that much harder. Let me give you an example with 40k. I didn't like anything past the 5th edition of the game. Now you can tell me, I can still enjoy the 5th edition, but who can I enjoy it with? TH-cam videos aren't going to be talking about an old edition, the gaming stores around me aren't going to be hosting games with the old edition, and if I joined a community, the new edition is going to be the talk of the town.
Same goes for star wars. Yes you can, go and play star wars themed dnd sessions with friends, yes you can read the old books and enjoy them. But when all the newer games and all the people around you are talking about the new stuff because its the new big thing, it can make you feel very small and alone. And it sucks. It really really sucks.
@@am-ranth8955 I tried man. I was writing a SW fanfic based in the EU for a few years, eventually with all of the defacing they did to Star Wars, I realized two things:
- That I had lost the passion for SW that drove my desire to write the fanfic (btw it was the longest work of fiction on the site that I wrote it on and that was just the first third of the first book of an entire trilogy I had planned)
- That my maximum possible audience, which was already a subgroup of a subgroup of a subculture, was only going to shrink as time went on, leaving me essentially telling myself a story, which would be fine, if I wasn't demotivated af and deprived of the old passion
40k has already started down the same path. Idk how the subversion of GW went down or how long in the making it's been, but yet another mythos has fallen, all that's left is to pull up lawn chairs, grab some soda and popcorn, and watch the fireworks.
@@Justacheese I can see how that would be an issue, but that does sound very much like what draws you to the series has changed. From that era of the setting hooking you and drawing you in, to the communities that sprung up around it instead. And I'm not saying that's a bad goal, but if your desire is to eliminate or mitigate the isolating aspects yet you can't stand the newer material, the only real choice you have is to find groups that are centered around the parts of it you do like. Again, both a SW and Halo fan here, and in Halo especially I know the feeling you describe, what with the constant gaslighting 343 fans do regarding the lore.
But I remain a Halo fan and a fervent one at that not because of the community's current consensus, but because of that initial premise and lore and execution that drew me in to begin with. Same goes for Star Wars. The High Republic might as well not exist for me, but the Old Republic? As far as I'm concerned that's the only Republic I care about in that part of the series' lore. I know it's not an ideal solution, but it is a solution. The alternative is a continued downward spiral as the source material changes from what you knew and loved.
It won't go back to the way it was, but you can. Always could.
i wanna tell everyone this: the 40k STARTED to get less grim dark at 5th edition it wasnt bad back then but it was noticable, then came 6th and many fans got enough but they didnt quit the hobby. for at that time forge world released the first rule books and models for horus heresy which many of the 40k fans jumped to instead INCLUDING me as we lost our passion for 40k. when 30k was out FW pumped out like 100-300 kits A YEAR for 18 legions, custodians, solar auxilia and sisters of silence. sadly at Alan Bligh who was a true fan of 40k passed away (RIP his soul) and corporate greed got their claws in 30k as well as my passion for 30k is now also dying because everything is repeating
5th ed was still firmly grimdark. I think the shift started with the 6th ed eldar wraithknight release. From that point forwards there was something slightly off imo. Funnily enough round about the same time as the end times for fantasy (rip).
It's around then gw stopped asking if they should and began asking if they could. Same rough time as the imperial knight and tempestus scions released. Neither of which I have ever felt quite fit the aesthetic.
@@qwertyg3666 But weren't Knights around on epic?
@@corvus_armatura7595 yeah they were. They were also significantly more in keeping with the blocky aesthetic of the imperium.
@@qwertyg3666 Exactly how? Knights are fairly ornate now compared to back then. Especially the armigers despite me not exactly being much of a fan of them.
40k had it's end times. We now endure the Age of Primarchs (aop).
Thats what makes it good. they should keep making books from before AOP, just to enforce the grimdark vibe of before.
But they should also be careful to tie the transition to nobledark, to the awakening of the primarchs
@@honkhonk8009 the only books that matter are the RULE books
What I miss more than anything in Warhammer is the satire. The utter exaggerated nature the empire used to have and all the goofy ahh fun ideas rogue trader had.
Goofy yet classy. Obvious piss takes that didn't diminish the setting in any way. Sly marbo for example.
SAME, dude. Same.
People clamoring for "grim dark" don't even seem to appreciate what I loved about the early editions.
2nd Edition was peak for me
Demoncabula haters when they learn about what the Tleilaxu from dune do to women: 😡
Which movie it's from?
@@Dizerfullpower The books
@@logangant7732 the rulebooks?
@@EnwardSnowman The dune books
Guys, I really thought warhammer adventures was a meme. Like "let's make an edit of a saga which is totally not meant for children as a children show"
Now I just got the poker face.
I'm relatively new to 40k only really getting into it during the pandemic so, I don't really have a great hold on the old lore. With that said, I despise how toned down modern 40k can be sometimes. I yearn for a story where Orks are ripping people limb from limb laughing their heads off because they think the Oomies screaming in pain is confusing and humorous to an Ork who can barely feel anything. I'm not going to complain about the return of the Primarchs because, to me, characters build a lot of my interest in 40k and seeing Robute having a fucking crisis with trying to come to terms of what the Imperium has become whilst still trying to govern it is equally humorous and tragic which kind of plays into the grim dark feel - after all for a being as genetically perfect as a Primarch to still feel despair and nihilism is pretty grim in my book. I do fear that 40k will/is become/becoming less gruesome for the sake of getting new fans, specifically from the woke young adults that want a hobby. In my opinion, 40k is and should remain unapologetically harsh and cruel because, let's face it, that's realistic. No pandering to children or the woke just pure sorrow and pain. Yes, there will be times where a certain faction has upswings like the Imperium and the return of their Primarchs but, that only expands the amount of sorrow the franchise can portray. Essentially, 40k should be equal parts badass and absolute nightmare fuel.
I fell in love with the "old marine" look. Primaris just doesnt give the same feeling. My biggest gripe is when a friend said he like the primaris because they look like spartans from halo. New 40k is slowly just becoming generic space war.
This. This is the reason I couldn't stand the new Necron codex. I didn't even have a Necron army or play them, but I despised the new codex with a passion, when they were changed from killer automatons to space robot Egyptians. It got bad enough that at one point I started doubting myself about other parts of the lore that were going through similar changes.
Because the 40K wiki was being edited in real time. It was like memories I had were being forcefully changed in front of my faced and it sucked.
So one day I snapped and asked my parents to get me the 4th edition Necron codex for Christmas. It was one of the best ideas I had related to the hobby. Now I can read about the old lore of the Necrons whenever I want and games workshop can't change it because its in my house on FUCKING PAPER.
I don't know much about OLD old 40k since I am both a recently and VERY mild when it comes to how I interaction with it but weren't the old necrons bassically just knock off terminators?
This works for the argument of "modern 40k is not grimdark" but honestly that seems WAY more boring than anything about the reworked necrons.
Though I am very much a Tau enjoyer and have never really much cared too much for the grimdarkness of the setting.
@@matijasostojic4288 Yes they were knockoff terminators for the most part. But they had a twist that made them unique. Their gods the C'tan, were soul eating horrible monsters that bossed the necrons around.
The necrons were kinda boring souless (In the literal sense) robots that followed the whims of their evil gods. In the new lore the necrons have captured the C'tan and essentially use them as pokemon.
This is one of the reasons I liked the old version of the necrons. The C'tan had so little written about their motives besides the fact that they want to eat souls, that it was frightening.
That whole fear of the unknown factor, is what made me like the faction.
But now, with the new lore, it goes into great detail explaining how the necrons captured the C'tan an imprisoned them. Making the whole faction feel goofy to me rather than scary.
I know I was way too long winded for my own good, but I hope you understand why I liked the old necrons now.
@@Justacheese I guess but for me personaly (And for a lot of people) this still seems pretty basic and boring. Like maybe they have more lore than you explained but this doesn't make me scared becuase of the lack of info, it makes me think "Kinda just seem like a typical demon or like some necromancer deity".
It probably why GW made them the way they are in modern times. The C'tan themselves seemed to basic to actually make the knock off terminators interesting.
And honestly again, I don't care for the grimdarkness off it and modern necrons are way too fun for me to agree with your viewpoint but hey if you like it I won't judge.
@@matijasostojic4288 That's fair. At the end of the day I'm one of the few people who don't like the changes. I understand that the whole company won't bend over to please me because I don't like one of the changes.
So that's why I stopped buying the models or going to my local game store to play games. It killed the passion for me. If you like the new stuff though, go ahead and enjoy it.
Makes me wish I wasn't so butthurt about all of it. In fact sometimes I'm kinda jealous that people can enjoy the new stuff more than I can :P
@@Justacheese As far as i remember the Necrons rebelling and defeating the C'tan was there from quite early, and then they woke up and hate all life and want to kill everyone, then quite recently they made them actually talk and communicate and what not.
When GW introduced the Primaris I knew that the party was over.
You miss the most iconic picture of the 3 Ed where a black Templar stepping on his his dead brother who got spitting in half and firing his bolt pistol in one hand and holding a broken sword in the other.
I start the game at 1995 second Ed and gets in to it at third Ed and starting to get tried of it at the point where they start doing the HH series, not saying the writing is bad but the best part of the game is mystery surrounding what happened before the big E sitting on the golden throne is like every body wants to see a beautiful woman naked but ones she is naked it will strips out all the excitement.
I left at the beginning of 7th. Mainly because no one had concerns a rule of thumb being discarded. In that weapon type overwrote vehicle type. It made my common line tank was useless… so I just left. Smartest choice is to leave and branch out to things to enjoy and save your money.
Either the company loses access to it’s customers or it doubles down. Can only dig so far down till you end up stuck and unable to get out and then they have to bargain with the customer to get the ladder. Constantly compare and point out things and honestly, I appreciate you for this video.
I got into it because my dad wanted to I watched the Roughnecks show and he got something similar to it. Got me hooked. Eventually I switched from Tyranids to IG but I had a lot of fun back then. I then started reading those books, and enjoying all the stories and wanting to collect the books as well… till I got screwed over rules wise as it made no lore sense and I just decided since GW didn’t care about it’s lore matching to game, I shouldn’t continue playing the board game. Cause they would eventually throw out the old lore to make new lore that contradicts the old lore.
Will happen later as well as it has to draw in new customers to buy into it. Honestly, thanks for this video. It’s honestly evolved into how people wanted Star Wars to be, mixed with Battletech, Starship Troopers, Halo, Doom, Star Trek, and such. It has so much combined into it, I kind of feel it’s a joke now of being “The Jack of All Trades Science Fiction Series”. That used to be Star Trek and Star Wars. Now it feels like both are competing on who has better exploration setting. So honestly, I am disappointed with 40k. Kind of why I don’t want Warhammer Fantasy revived. Mainly because it won’t be Warhammer Fantasy anymore because people won’t care it’s the old stuff they liked.
Wow, this is very wholesome and this comment is better than my video god damn lol. I appreciate your time commenting on this, it was very heart warming to read.
I predict that if GW will try to push for an LGBT progressive trend to get to the mainstream, their sales could (theoretically) peak and crash 2 weeks later because the modern far-left has an attention spam of a quarter of a second. After that, I will expect the hobby to be truly dead or an apology video.
I dipped end of 6th, I hated how vehicle mounted plasma weapons(dreadnoughts, leman russ executioners, sentinels) were now subject to the "gets hot" rule. It was many other little things as well that built up to me dropping the game, but that one little change was what kept rattling around in my mind. Weapon system and platforms that can mount the appropriate cooling systems to not be hamstrung by the excessive waste heat build up? That doesn't work anymore? No? Alright, bye.
*gets into 40K 8th Ed.*
*immediately make video saying it was better at 3rd and 4th Ed.*
I recently found my first ever Warhammer codex- 4th edition Orks and it was beautiful, not just for the nostalgia but also seeing how grimdark all the pictures were, keeping a balance between the Ork's comical side yet still having that grimdark look in all the artwork and of course those flat trucks. Games Workshop haven't yet gone full 'World of Warcraft' in their styling but there's definatly a change in them being less 'metal'. It also felt less commercialised, with the "Mek's workshop" page actively encouraging you to use non-GW pieces for Ork dreadnoughts.
I think this quote from the 4th edition rulebook sums up the feel of grimdark perfectly:
"Who is to judge what is right and what is wrong? Great and powerful foes surround us and unknown miscreants gnaw at us from within. We are threatened with total annihilation. In days such as these we can afford no luxury of morality"
Man I love those old black and white pictures, same with DnD pictures. Those old ones just have such a mood to them.
But I think you’re right, one problem is them explaining everything leaving little mystery, pushing into the future of the setting but in super radical ways.
And man I’ve never been a SM fan but I hate primaris why not just adjust the model sizes without the dumb lore.
I quit during 3.5 and came back around 9th when a friend gave me some Votann models. All I can say is that being away for a couple of years REALLY makes the BS stand out. 40K was once my favorite setting, but it has lost all of it's soul and frankly, I am one of these people that "won't be missed" according to GW. Turns out that I don't miss their marketing BS either, and now that I am outside of their walled garden - there are FAR better games out there. With consistent rulesets that don't change every time some GW smells your money.
Can you recommend some?
@@Sephlock I find it hard to quickly recommend something without knowing people's preferences and without a huge list of disclaimers, but I've been diving into BattleTech lately (Classic and Alpha Strike) and have been pleasantly surprised how little the core ruleset has changed over 40 years. The game isn't WYSIWYG to begin with, and models produced in the 80's are still 100% valid.
I’m waiting for the massive slannesh retcon when they launch the emperors children codex.
They’ve already been trying to turn them into people just obsessed with perfection. Rather than the hedonistic hellraiser body horror freaks from the Fulgrim heresy book.
🙄🤨
@Red_Crows
They gonna have to since they are sanitizing their ip more and more. As their brand expands.
I personally really doubt they are going to keep it as it is, theres no way.
There were too many parallels with the hedonistic body horror freaks interpretation of Slaanesh with certain "protected groups" in real life. You just can't depict mutilating your own body as a bad thing now. And neither can you depict depraved sex acts in any sort of negative light. Our society is healthy.
It definitely is still grim dark, they just decided to give the Imperium a small breath of air but things are still going pretty bad. It's fine for the good guys to get epic moments sometimes and not always get their asses kicked by the xenos and chaos.
I don't have an issue with more of the lore is expanded but I do hate it when you can see a new product being "written" into existence
I think what annoys me about 40k is similar to what happened to D&D it has been rampant with memes that become overused and bleed into the lore because the masses loce to see their favorite marine chapter act one note.
Critical role and stranger things and their consequences
@@Ayahuasca98 in this case for 40k and lore tubers in TikTok.
@@noblegalifreyan4551 it might just be me but I think warhammer’s always had a secondary problem because of the video games too
@@Ayahuasca98 the video games a great way for new people to introduce them the universe what is awful is the Loretubers who basically muddy up the water with stupid lore videos that abridge and memify the lore.
@@noblegalifreyan4551 yeah definitely. I still think DOW was a fun game but overall I much prefer talking to hobbyists than just people who play like, space marine 2 or Dawn of war or something. But a lot of these lore TH-camrs after 2015 (year I got into it oddly enough) feel half hearted.
This video couldnt come out at a better time. Nearly 18 years ago, i started getting into 40k. Bought necron codex, some necron warriors, destroyers. Time passed, with me not touching 40k, because of school, then university, work... when i moved abroad i found both times and expendable income to go back to minis, but by then necrons became just space egyptians. The minis looked boring, the lore was plain stupid... and i thought to myself "damn, i was just a dumb kid i guess", and i moved on to different army.
I got back home last week and i found this codex, that i bought way back then. Figured id page through it and laugh at how stupid i was.
Damn, necrons are hecking cool again.
Point is, that 40k the way it is right now, aint for me anymore. But 40k the way it was definitely is what im about.
3rd Edition Necrons were indeed the best.
Honestly you had me in the first part. But when you started going through the anti-woke rabbit hole it made me concerned.
Look its ok if you dont enjoy current warhammer 40k. But just keep in mind that when they say that they dont tolerate bigots. They arent talking about you. They are talking about stupid bad people that cant accept different people.
Also what appeals to me in this setting is that its over the top and that the setting is grimdark. Not the characters.
Ciaphas Cain, Talos, trazyn and many others are my favorite characters because they are very human. They have wants, needs, dreams and personality
The grimdarkness of their stories dont come from them being edgy. It comes from what they fight against or perhaps... What they have become.
The issue is that the woke mob is incredibly obnoxious and almost invariably makes everything about them, which is a form of narcissism and attention seeking. Corporations will do a little woke PR to lazily try to appear morale and lecture their consumer base while doing nothing to alleviate suffering around the world. People like to act self righteous while putting no thought into complex issues or history. People don't like to think, they just like to act morally righteous and lecture others. For example Disney filmed Mulan in China, right outside a camp where they were committing genocide and even thanked the CCP that was presiding over those camps. Actual morality is not important, winning political points on the other hand...
People in the USA live in an amazing time, most have never suffered from discrimination and if anything are benefiting from the system. Yet because their ancestors or people from their group suffered decades ago, they act like it was they themselves who suffered, because people want to be victims. Millions of Soviets were killed in WW2 by the Germans. Should we insert Russians into every media as a result? Do you want to be lectured about how Russians are super awesome all the time simply because they are Russians?
Now the most important quality you could have is being a woman, being black, and liking gay sex, or being trans qualities people have no control over besides the trans part. I'm so great because I'm gay, I'm a woman so I'm awesome at everything, I'm black, so brave. I didn't do anything, but I'm amazing because I'm gay. People are getting judged for completely irrelevant characteristics. After getting that shoved in your face for 10 years it's going to annoy anybody. What if men did that? I'm a man, so everything I do is awesome. Like no one wants to hear bragging about shit they didn't even accomplish, just things they were born with. People aren't valuing being friendly, polite, cleverness, intelligence or merit but completely irrelevant characteristics. Moreover, almost always you have to shit on straight men, usually white men. Like most white men have any control over the past or ever discriminated against anybody. It's ironic because we're being told that racism and bigotry is bad, that's why we're being bigoted right now against white men. Even more ironic is it's frequently men who have created all these systems we enjoy today- Warhammer, fighting games, RPG's, videogames. Women, gays, etc. are just not that interested in those topics, and that's okay too. Women are not disinterested in videogames because of systematic discrimination by the way.
If we were celebrating everybody it would be one thing but clearly it is favoring certain groups and demonizing others. People aren't valued for their ideas anymore, they're valued for some random characteristic they might have been born with, and this will precipitate the decline of certain media even further because you are no longer hiring the most talented writer, you're hiring someone because they mark the check box of arbitrary characteristics. It doesn't matter if you have poop for brains, you like gay sex so you're hired. People want diversity of skin colors but not diversity of ideas.
The trans thing makes it even more complex because for one thing it's not even clear if supporting the movement is the moral thing, you might just be fucking up these people's lives for good by encouraging it. A good argument can be made that these people are mentally ill, and encouraging people to embrace their mental illness and irreversibly mutilate their bodies seems distinctly irresponsible and immoral. In my opinion, these people come off as incredibly entitled. I might feel feminine or like a woman sometimes, does that mean I should get breast augmentations, cross dress and demand everyone call me a woman? People should submit sometimes and realize that they're not going to get what they want all the time. Like I might feel like a woman, but I'm not, and that's okay. I think it's incredibly irresponsible to pump someone full of testosterone because they "feel" like a man. The responsible, safe and reasonable thing to do is adjust their hormone levels to an appropriate level of their gender, these feelings are often a result of out of balance hormones. It's a free country and I don't care what you do behind closed doors, but pushing it on everyone, including children and making it a part of everything is narcissistic and absurd. Not everything needs to be for everyone. Also people don't like weird shit and plastic surgery can be disturbing just by itself. Why are we getting mad at people when they are put off by people acting weird? The respectful thing to do is realize not everyone likes or wants to see weird shit. They want respect, but don't want to give it. I'm sure a very small minority of people do want to be trans and understand the ramifications but for most people it's a path that leads to destruction and depression. Ah yes, let's encourage these people with questionable judgement to make irreversible life altering decisions so I can win political points and feel good about myself without doing anything.
For these woke people, they see a brand that makes money or gains popularity and they want to make it all about them, while shitting on the fanbase that has painstakingly supported it for years before it was popular. Happens all the time, and often they drive the brand straight into the ground. Because they're not valuing intelligence or wisdom anymore, it's all about celebrating being a victim, even though they're probably not.
I get where you're coming from and don't get me wrong. Racial discrimination is horrible. Everyone should be allowed and encouraged to enjoy the medium. I railed against the woke mob for awhile but there is nuance. In principle I agree that everyone should be included and people shouldn't be judged for characteristics they can't control, but it's not exactly playing out that way. Often, almost always, Wokeism comes off as incredibly obnoxious. If handled right, if it was done respectfully, done less frequently and toned down a bit, it wouldn't be an issue but it's almost always self righteous lecturing and preaching, shitting on men and rampant nepotism/tribalism. Ironically it's moral preaching from people who usually have no moral sense, no wisdom, no critical thinking and no understanding of history. And often brands that do this cater to these people when the Woke people aren't even interested in the brand. Like it's okay that Warhammer 40k is often about men, there's nothing wrong with that. Men should be celebrated too. There are clever ways to include women without shitting all over the established lore, like writing a good woman character- but that's too difficult. I honestly think it's a childish fad that will die out eventually, maybe 30-40 years. It comes off as entitled narcissism. No one wants to hear constant bragging about how someone is great because they happen to be gay, a woman, or black. I think if men or white people did that it would rightfully be called out as undeserved bragging, narcissism, childish and obnoxious. Like yeah, everyone is tribalistic and it's okay to be proud of who you are, but at a certain point it's narcissistic and unhealthy. Like, I'm a man, isn't that amazing? Men are the best, ever. I'm just so awesome because I'm a man and thus everything I do is awesome, I have no flaws.
Sorry for writing so much, either you're interested in reading it or you're not, I won't fault you for not. For some people reading is a big chore, for other's it's non-issue. I wanted to make it clear the reasons why Wokeism is so heavily criticized, there's a bit of nuance. In principle I agree, if it was intelligently done and appropriate I would have no problem but in it's current form it has major issues. I think it's a way for basically ignorant, non-critically thinking people to feel better about themselves, by easily being like "Yeah, I support women, blacks, gays and trans!! You don't? Bigot." Let's put it in literally everything, kids have to learn about cross dressing! Obviously people should support blacks, gays and women but it's got blown way out of proportion. People dislike wokeism for a plethora of legitimate reasons, I don't think it's just 'misunderstood.'
Okay why is it bad to go down the anti-woke rabbit hole? Why has that suddenly become such a bad thing to do? Seriously you're acting like it's a damn crime.
Also when they say they "don't tolerate bigots" they are in fact talking about who they PERCEIVE to be bigots in their view. Look at what happened with the female custodes debacle, when long time fans rightly called out on the blatant retcon GW called those very same long time fans, bigots...
@@FrostbiteDigital look what happenned to syntheticman. He cant enjoy a single thing because to him everything is woke. And that entretainment media is dead.
The guy has the balls of saying that all indie games are worthless (because he thinks theyre woke). When gems like ultrakill and deep rock galatic exist.
The whole custodes debacle is GW being GW lol. Also retcons are something really common in 40k and atleast theres a reasonable explanation to why theres female custodes. All of custodes have custom made geneseed different from astartes. So the idea of a female custodes isnt out of reach.
And if you look at the 10th Edition Codex for custodes. Its literally just a Pronoun. And it kinda gives the idea that its very rare or hell maybe shes even the exception.
And if you disagree thats ok and if GW calls you a bigot fuck them. I just wouldnt say that 40k went woke.
The books arent woke just because the writers are pro left.
@@deadgunslinger8489syntheticman is a fucking gooner and he is miserable regardless of his political beliefs
@deadgunslinger8489 hear hear!
Well my solution is to keep my own headcanon. I just disregard anything I don’t like in the official lore, like Primaris, the Leagues of Votann, the Erda and Amar Astarte lore, etc. The corporate bosses in charge of GW can never reach inside my head and change my interpretation of 40k and grimdark.
The only sensible solution really. Why complain about all of this when you can just take what you like and leave what you don't, and always could? This isn't a fight for the soul of a nation or anything, it's a fictional universe where everything and everyone sucks.
What's to dislike about the leauges of Votann?
I got into 40K just months prior to the release of the Primaris Marines. My friend's boyfriend has a small group of tabletop players, and they let me in on some lore. I played DoW, Space Marine, watched the Astartes and Helsreach animations, read WH40K and HH novels and I fell in love immediately. Then the Primaris came out and I was like, "Wait, they look way too clean. What's happening?" and that's stayed that way for a while now, I feel
I'm an old head at this point, even talked about the main issues with the Primaris (Look at that new Blood Angels box, lazy) and the other changes for sometime. You did a very good job covering it in a way I think many newer folks can relate to. Will be suggesting your channel .
I watched the entire video, you changed my mind, I agree with you. it's now Warhammer 40gay
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMNNNNNNN YOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMZZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA YOU CAAAAN'T SAY SUCH THINS I WANT MY MANLY WOMAN COMMAND ME!!!!!!!
Back when Dawn of War: Dark Crusade release I was introduced to W40K. It didn't try to lore dump the setting on me so what I knew about the setting was very sparse, but it gave me the idea of a dark and violent world and I was intrigued, a teenager that I was. Then I went to YT which had a lot of cool tributes to various 40K factions (bless you Makkovar) and the image of this massive, dark setting became firmer and firmer. Lastly I, em, pirated the latest edition at the time (I think it was 5th) and I began considering myself a fan of the setting. But the problem was, I only knew the setting in its broad strokes.
Since then, over the years, l learned more about the setting and grew to like it less and less. It became apparent that W40K is a product, meant to be sold, and that GW ill do anything to make it appealing to as many people as possible. They'll retcon or remove anything that conflicts with increasing sales. Also, an army of writers of middling to low quality write for GW and they each have their own ideas about what the setting, or specific factions in it, should be like. This lead to setting schizophrenia where certain parts are incredibly dark while others seems straight out of a Monty Python. Some people will call it a satire while others take it completely straight, and both will have sufficient material in the officially released material to prove that their take is the correct one.
So I stopped giving a fuck about W40K. I still think that its broad strokes are great - a stagnant, repressive, millennia old empire beset on all sides by enemies, always at war, having to stoop to the worst atrocities for survival - but every time I zoom in I find some stupid shit some middling writer thought was cool or some exec thought would sell more plastic toys.
People pointing to IW when daemonculaba is mentioned, forget that it was made by a hybrid iron warrior/imperial fist that doesn't represent the legion in it's entirety
@louisnall3102 Popularity doesn't make you a proper IW
I'm telling you, I really wish the nerd community didn't go mainstream because it invited people that really don't care about the nature of the subculture....that's why these titles are the way they are....it's a weird oddly trend for most to chase and, they shame the true fans of those genres. Then you have the companies that just make the most ridiculous business move only for them to stab themselves in the foot. So, really no one is winning at the end of it all. Also! Great video.
Im a complete transplant to the 40k community.
Its not the nerd community anymore like you said. Every jock I know worships 40k now.
The truth is, 40k is mainstream now. And not for the board games it came from. Its for the story.
Board games have a setting. The setting doesn't progress. But a story needs to progress.
So I kinda like the new age of primarchs, and the story progressing from grimdark to nobledark.
But they should be very careful with it, to make sure the nobledark transition is visibly and directly from the primarchs awakening.
Maybe the setting is slightly less wacky/ silly grim dark as it use to, but it hasn't become any less grim dark, honestly i feel the adding of a little hope into the universe has actually made it even more grim dark, as no there is that small glimmer of hope that ( probably) can never be reached.
you'll find very few people here believe you've ever read the early books to properly make the comparison you make and are, indeed pulling random opinion from source: a$$
@maltheri9833
And you're wrong. So stop talking.
I would counter and say that the mere existence of primaris undermines that point of view. They are hope. They are a technological advance. They have made the impossible possible. Part of what established grimdark is that perpetual state of just barely surviving. Scarcely maintaining what you have much less creating anything new. The idea that your characters, your crazy last stands on the table top are merely staving off defeat and not granting victory.
There is no time for peace.
No respite.
No forgiveness.
There is only war.
I will say one thing however, and that's that sometimes, in order to do a grim story we'll, you need to give the characters and readers a sense of hope first, so you can dash it later. You need to make them feel safe, so you can show them true terror. You need to depict characters rising, glorious and full of honour, so that their fall can carry the full weight of tragedy. So long as the light within the setting only exists to give weight to the darkness, it doesn't betray the setting. Whether or not that's what game's workshop is actually doing? Well🐸
Agreed. I was hitting on mostly on the setting of 40k from lore and art because without the base of the setting or if anything is contradicting the setting entirely then the setting is not what it originally was. What you brought up is pretty valid but that has to come with good writing and execution with proper knowledge of 40k (as in the old one as I stated), which unfortunally I don't see that often as of recent books.
I can only speak from Horus heresy books and a good example is the starter book like Horus rising, false gods, Fulgrim, Eisenstein. Very well crafted books to hook you in and makes the times start to get dark. With what you brought up I can think of Rynn's world and as I stated in the video the ambush in Naxos, the only I didn't mention which was my mistake, it was that the people were praising the Iron snakes as their saviours but when the dark Eldar came back they were left as corpses to say it nicely lol because they were doing their own thing.
So correct, you can have some hope in there to flip it after and have the weight of the character matter. The problem I encounter even here in the comments is, people are trying to speak out of their personal preference than objectively say well grim dark is this way and it makes sense as a setting. You will see well I don't want it to be 100 percent grim dark or 40k needs hope and whats wrong with primarchs coming back we need some hope in this dark galaxy, which is disregarding my statement I made in the video and missed my whole point.
I appreciate your comment though thank you for bringing it up.
I think they should keep making stories from before the emperors/primarchs awakening.
That way they can enforce the true gimdark vibe of the franchise. And make the whole reawakening even better.
But then they should keep the story moving forward, and have the emperor reawaken slowly and the primarchs come back.
Cus ultimately, its pretty boring if a story is stagnant. The setting can be stagnant, but the story shouldn't.
We had plenty of hopeful moments. They were Yarrick chasing Ghaz into the stars to finally bring him down. It was Creed throwing back the legions of chaos one more day. It was the Ultramarines defeating the Tyranids and saving Macragge. It was the Tanith 1st and Only walking off yet another battlefield with their lives. The idea that 40k didnt have moments of 'hope' and actually needed some is one of the biggest damn 'I never read/understood the setting' signposts you could see and I'm sick of people saying it.
@@somekindofgold8362 We dont talk about the plot armour blue berries in this sacred channel lol.
Imperium was so large, so bloated, can barely keep track of how many worlds/taxes/space marine chapter were out there-
-manage to deliver primaris space marine to every chapter out there ever. Get out of here, no way this kind of logistic exists.
There aren't that many marine chapters and allot of them aren't that hard to find
@@moweu -take a look at the list of all space marine chapters. Now try to contact each and every one of them by sailing through HELL with a 10~1000 years delay, and a high chance of your package being devour by warp storms.
-it took imperium forever to realize krieg, badab has gone rogue. Or the entire civilization of TAU existed.
- delivery them by custodes and sister of silence, both of which are previous few manpower
-if you deliver them by great crusade 2 boogaloo, congrats your brand new primaris reinforcement all get KIA before they can reach the intended chapter, or like 3 of them survive the intensity of battles.
-remember that list of space marine chapter? Thanks to warp communication it’s now a list of outdated information, good luck finding their current whereabouts.
It stands to reason space marine chapter usually act on its best interest locally, because realistically Terra can’t issue command/supply/ammunition to everyone of them anymore
@@kail4997 I mean sure it's hard but still do able, also some chapters send their own guys to collect their reinforcements
@@moweu TH-cam keep deleting everything f them. But statistically some chapters were bound to miss out the whole deal.
To be fair, for Guillimeme, that kind of logistics is just Tuesday
If you ask me after the fall of cadia GW has just been writing fan fiction for their own setting. None of that should actually be considered lore.
I take it one step further and treat the fall of Cadia as fanfiction too.
People really forget this isn’t the first time 40k has changed. Notice how this guy never mentioned 1st or 2nd ed and how goofy that was. Like, parody levels of grim dark. 3rd ed and 4th ed brought it to a more believable level. But yea idk, my opinion is that stuff changes. If WH40K stays the same, it’s a guaranteed death. If WH40K does change, it might upset a lot of people, but it can continue and keep going. Idk. Food for thought. I’m not even disagreeing. I’m just saying, my perspective as a super casual
@@stuglife5514 honestly yeah, 40k is so big you really arent forced to indulge in any one piece of it, you could play games, write, and read stories, paint figurines, and just generally consume content from which ever ed you prefer, that's just the nature of media, sure it sucks if it goes in a direction you dont prefer, but you can simply not consume that content, and boom it doesn't exist
Maybe its due to being a writer myself, having no issue with seperating pieces of media, and coming up with head cannon far cooler imo then what's been established when a shit writer takes the helm, ontop of seeing 40k more as a setting where billions of book worthy events are happen at any one time, rather then a story with a main character and a start and finish such, so maybe thats why i dont take issue, as traversing the 40k timeline is sort of apart of the fun, i dont feel forced to keep up with the latest stuff, if a writer fails to make a story how i view 40k i'll simply stop reading and read something else that DOES scratch that itch, cuz the market for comedically grim dark, more gritty grim dark, and lighter grim dark will all exist, and i think can exist in unison
Cool. We don’t like the new shit compared to the old stuff. Simple as. Now go enjoy your shitmaris marines.
I've been saying this ever since they redesigned daemons to look like cartoons.
im doing my part as someone relatively new to 40k by playing 5th edition rules on tabletop simulator and 3d printing minis
rules are not only better but theyre way more straight forward and easier to grasp than 10th edition
I will not forget about the science, I trust the science.
I don't think the wider audience is the main reason why GW is doing what they are doing. Don't get me wrong: It is partially true, sure. However, the reason for this goes way back to 2015.
They are doing the things they do, because they are trying to turn Warhammer 40k into Age of Sigmar in Space. This is evident in the rules where 8th edition and after's core rules is just watered down Age of Sigmar. Command points, the relic system and the like all come from Age of Sigmar.
When GW used Warhammer Fantasy as a sacrificial lamb in 2015, the feedback was universally negative. They were also going to do the same with 40k with Wrath of Magnus and The Gathering Storm but because AoS was so negatively recieved they instead opted to the boiling frog effect with 40k.
Primaris Space Marines are Sci-fi Stormcast Eternals and I'm dying on this hill. Think about it: The Primaris are two wound models with overly specialised units. Just like The Stormcast are.
The reason why nothing seems to become of anything in the New Lore is because GW is artificially keeping the Imperium alive when in reality they should be actively getting decimated on all fronts by Chaos, Necrons and the Tyranids while the Orks and the Eldar do nothing. (Because the former is funny RNG faction and the latter because GW hates them.)
GW cannot afford another End Times because it would hurt their sales.
Now I am entering into the Conspiracy theory territory.
Stay with me, what if, just what if: Ynnead was to unite all of the Eldar under it's banner and he was to serve the role of Nagash? There, you have AoS' Grand Alliance Death.
Wouldn't one argue that Roboute is one of the more reasonable primarchs and don't the Primaris Mark X armour also kinda look like T'au armour? There you go: Grand Alliance Order.
The Orks and the Tyranids were waging a huge battle in Octarius, so I'm spitballing here: What if, the Tyranid Hive Mind and the Ork Waaagh! Energy Merged into one due to Warp Chicanery? There you go: Grand Alliance Destruction.
TL;DR: Although the Wider Audience Fallacy is partially why GW is doing what they are doing, but also to turn Warhammer 40k into Age of Sigmar in Space. Because they realised with Fantasy that they have to be more subtle about it.
I suspect that if AoS V1 had been more successful then the initial characterisation of the Primaris Marines as being more rational and less superstitious than the "firstborn", as well as less flawed on a genetic level would've stuck. It just seems obvious to me that GW wants to remake Space Marines into secular stormtroopers fighting to restore science and reason in a benighted galaxy. Unless GWs goal is to make obnoxious atheists the new face of Imperial evil then I think it's a comically stupid idea, but it does seem like there's a lot of people in the fandom who think that all it would take to make the IoM the goodies is for their underlying motivations to change. "For Science" instead of "For The Emperor" is enough to make a hero out of an authoritarian.
@@Culexus101 If AoS V1 was actually successful, they would have also killed 40k with it's own End Times.
GW with 40k is like George R. R. Martin with A Song of Ice and Fire: They are absolutely sick and tired of it, look at their own IP and fans with complete and utter contempt and would rather have an AoS in Space.
P.S. I think The Eldar United Under Nagash and the Necrons would team up because "Chaos is the Greater Enemy." Effectively, turning both Ynnead and The Silent King into Nagash.
@@TheNamelessScholarOfficial That's the first time I've heard it suggested that G.R.R.M doesn't like the fans of ASoIaF/GoT, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. GRRM is a perfect example of a politically motivated progressive fantasy/sci fi author who's goal with a setting like GoT is partially to disabuse people of their love of idealised visions of medieval society by depicting it in an unflattering way. The problem is that that kind of show, don't tell style is a lot like satire, sometimes people miss the intended message and end up loving the setting just as they would something like LotR. So if GRRM sees that a lot of GoT fans have missed the message he was trying to get across then I could see that causing someone like him to resent his own fans. He assumed too much from them and they let him down.
40k fit's into the same box that GoT does. It shows a horrible world that is the result of 10,000 years of authoritarianism, out of control bureaucracy, and theocratic madness and GW now expects us to draw the "right" conclusion...when it suits them, because GW has been guilty of muddying the waters plenty of the years, especially around marines. Based on interviews I've watched and read over the years my sense with 40k is that the original writers looked at the inhabitants of M41 with a great deal of pity, they were victims of circumstance who were suffering the fallout of poor decisions made millennia ago. They were "bad" by our standards but it's easy to be "good" when you're the product of societies that are still nominally based on enlightenment values. I'm not much of a moral relativist but I'm smart enough to not be too judgemental towards people who lived decades, centuries, or millennia ago because I can't be sure that I wouldn't have been like them if I'd grown up in their world.
I think part of 40k problem now is that the writers have fallen out of love with that style of writing. It's too ambiguous and open to interpretation. Lot's of fans just take it for granted that the IoM is a necessary evil, others see it as holding humanity back, few see it as both. So 40k needs to be remodelled into a setting that promotes good values directly instead of promoting good values indirectly by making bad values look bad by showing the negative results in all their grim darkness. They're basically trying to turn a setting like GoT into LotR and hoping not enough people will notice or care.
P.S. That stuff about the Eldar and Necrons teaming up is so wack I can see modern GW considering it...
11:00 and that's where you lost me
@Rompstirdg
Ok, you won't be missed.
@@TheNellop Maybe but it isn't even the viewpoints you just brought that stuff up even though they where completely unrelated
@@Rompstirdg Congrats on not paying attention and trying to straw man me because they do relate with each other and I have made it clear why is that the case.
@@TheNellop I’m not trying to 'strawman' you; this is just a TH-cam comment. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean it's automatically an attack on you as a person. In fact, I didn't mention your character once, so that’s a very apt thing to say. I understand what you were trying to say; I just completely disagreed with you and thought the connection didn’t make sense nothing deeper.
@@TheNellopNeither will you, you can go and call rings of power or overwatch woke instead 🤗
I recommend checking out the warhammer crime and warhammer horror book labels in the black library.
Stories are usually of normal people trying to live in the 41st millennium and so they keep a much more bleak grim dark tone.
@Red_Crows
I appreciate your recommendation, but Ill have to pass not because of ignoring that those stories might be true but I have been convinced most stories in before the fall of cadia were better and anything made after that is either meh or trash.
I can say when it comes in general with video games and movies but thats a different topic.
That's my honesty when it comes to this.
They tried to do another horus heresy but in 40k and it failed hard, they tried to some how keep it grim dark meanwhile they changed the whole setting being the pure opposite of what 40k was meant to be.
What is interesting when it comes to 40k in general? War. Mostly men like me like the war like the action and more. But too often people defocus way too much of yeah yeah we have war lets get to something out of it which devalues what 40k was meant to be "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war".
Of course from time to time it is interesting to see other world perspectives outside of that scope. A good example is the book called the Men of Iron.
Rynns world, The grey knight omnibus, Malodrax, Deaths sky black sun. Are the books in before the fall of cadia that succeeded well, why?
1 they make sense in the 40k universe of grimdark by definition and
2 its good books personally, plus the art style reflects of those covers make it more gritty and dark.
I'll see later down the line if its worth it but I have some books in my list I have to read so I am quite full when it comes to reading stuff lol.
That grimdark version of the Necron Warrior is what got me into Necrons. Sad that they dont reflect that.
@ArminaticsVoiceArtist
Not sure if you were aware lore wise but Necrons were different in 3rd ed and I think just around 5th edition is where they changed them entirely.
So instead of them defeating the ctan, they were enslaved by them, for all eternity but still went to sleep and all that. They dont talk and I personally like that because it has that nice setting of a race being traped forever without ever knowing their former selfs.
@@TheNellop Yeah I knew that to some extend thanks. I still like them having personality a bit more. The twice dead king series was great but I see the appeal of them being trapped inside too. I just feel like atleast for the warriors the art could look more raw and broken. Like they are mindless but look so bland now. That one art piece looks like they are the cheapest and most mindless trapped creatures. Only killing as their lords command. It looks more tragic.
@@ArminaticsVoiceArtist That is fair enough, my brain is more focused of ok does this make it grim dark yes-no and why.
I would still go with 3rd ed Necrons as they are silent automatons that speak in binary code controlled by ctan and they will keep coming endlessly plus resurrect from the dead.
I used to like the new necrons but the more I look into it as for in the context making things grim dark.
Making necrons have no personality is far more grim that is because they used to be living beings even the leaders but all that is lost from their desperate gamble and they will never come back to be normal again.
And in the eyes of anyone except eldar, they are just monsters that want to delete the galaxy.
I like that version and that's just me.
@@TheNellop Thats fair I just find that them having personalities offers a different take on their form of immortality. Body dysmorphia, the corruption of the mind and the longing for flesh. Which is why I love oltyx aka Valgul the Bone King and the flayers. But I like your take too
You legitimately had a solid argument until you reached 10:00 and listed AndyPants.
Like, yeah, the bleakness and grimdark parts of 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th editions were pretty much all removed come Primaris in 8th. I was unhappy with as much as the next warhammer fan. But saying that the issue is 'diversifying' is just being afraid of something you can't explain properly. The reason Primaris sucked so bad was because it was HORRIBLY written, simple as.
In fact, have you seen the earlier years of 40k? With the Slaaneshi noise marines that wielded guitars and wore rainbows? The OG Salamander's paint job? Warhammer, whether you like it or not, has always had a small bit of either wit or humor lying beneath the rubble of despair. It's just now they've embraced it more than the edgy teenage phase of everyone dies, boo hoo. To me, it feels less like Warhammer has been driven into the ground and more that it's started embracing who it is. It is depressing, yes, but it can also be goofy. Cain is a great example, and so is The Infinite and the Divine.
I do miss what 40k was, but I celebrate what it has become.
There is a massive difference between a small bit of either wit or humor lying beneath the rubble of despair and a small bit of despair lying beneath a big rubble of humor.
@@plmokm33 And perspective makes all the difference. What you're looking for often is what you end up finding, but flies are more noticeable in good food than shit.
Pretty much how I see it though I'm more in the camp of "Why didn't they just resize space marines?". Primaris was good for Warhammer from a business prospective. Long time die hard fans already bought everything they could have ever needed and the hobby was stagnating. Stock was sitting at £8-£9 a share at the beginning of 2017 (the year Primaris was released) by the end of the year it more than doubled, by the end of 2018 it doubled again, we see the hype die down a little, but over the course of two years it almost doubled again, and then 2020 the pandemic hit. We see a dip... £45 a share down from £70.
Then it skyrockets to £114 a share January 2021 reaching a high of £120 a share by September 2021. There was extended dip as the pandemic started to strain the company then after it was over it gained and became steady at around £90-£100 a share at a rough average. The years before Primaris GW stock sold for £5 a share on average from 1996 to mid 2016. Some will say change will be the down fall of GW is a take they are free to have and hell it might happen in the long term, but as of now it doesn't seem to be slowing GW down at all.
Anyways with all that money it a damn shame they can't hire better artist and 3d model specialist after all the greats retired. Just like you I miss the Grimdark of old and I cope buy collecting way to much metal models, books, magazines, codexes, rule books, specialist games, and more from that era. It's what brought me into the hobby and I surround myself with it. Some new stuff I love and some new stuff I don't, but it doesn't bother me because I have the stuff I cherish.
@@tyrantofcans465 I mean... AndyPants isn't wrong though
@@FrostbiteDigital AndyPants isn't wrong in the big picture. He is smart enough to identify when something is wrong. However, he keeps misattributing the symptoms to 'woke' and not the fact that the games are just horribly written. The reason that so many games nowadays feel terrible isn't just because the people who are writing it are trying to be as 'inclusive' as possible, overlooking telling a genuinely good story, because they genuinely fucking suck at writing anything with any sort of substance. There are still good games that tell good stories, and they include some form of exploring one's identity. Just look at games like Elden Ring, Warframe, Hades, or Destiny 2.
As a dark eldar player I’m just happy my lore hasn’t been changed too much.
Lord knows we don’t need vect revealing the only reason he’s so evil is because he was bullied as a kid or some shit
I feel really bad for space marine mains as you can’t even find tactical marines in stores anymore.
For this messure, I really recommend you the Warhammer 40k RPG's from the 2000's. Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Only War. You can stick only to the lore and the art and you can see how it's so different from today. I also recommend you Eisenhorn and Ravenor novels, really good stuff and the Eisenhorn novels were thought as the intro to the 'civil world' of 40k... And you can assume that's not pretty.
I really miss that era (I'm 31 but I began playing 40k in the change between 3rd and 4th edition... Altough I was more of a WH fantasy fan). I'm with you that modern 40k feels so different, the art, the narrative... is soulless.
Man, I was a fan of the setting since about 2005 when I played first Dawn of War. I was in love with black and white, "rugged" artwork in the booklet that came with the video game that was taken stright from codices of 3rd edition, the random quotes like "suffer not the witch to live" were so damn cool and metal. The Dreadnoughts being piloted by mortaly wounded marines kept alive to wage war eteranlly was so awesome and mindblowing to my 10 year old ass. And the game was godlike tier so it helped a lot with getting me into the setting.
I got into tabletop right at the tail end of 8th edition, because one of my friends was painting figurines for some years. I was a bit disapointed with pulling the primaris out of Cawls cyber-ass and colorful art. And as the 9th edition dropped I was more and more frustrated not only with the game itself but with more and more colorful and "clean" artstyle and turning down of the grimdarkness. Now after female custodes Im just done man. They are trying to ruin the setting by "appealing to the wider audience". The Imperium is now slowly contorted into the good guys. Primarch are coming back left and right when they should be just legends or even rumours of a bygone era. The less said about the neo Squats in starcraft suits the better... Necrons are suddenly able to speak and there is a book where two necron lords are pulling pranks on eachother or something? Hell even models themselves are becoming cleaner, symmetrical, and half of them have tactical rocks on their bases for some reason. And paradocsically because they have so much detail it becomes a chore to paint them. God I was so tired when I was painting 20 cadian shock troopers from Cadia Stands box. I feel like Im playing with toy soldiers, very pretty but designed by commite toy soldiers insted of leading armies of cool characters.
I've bought most of the 3rd edition codices just for art and lore. It was peak of the game when it comes to that. It was grimdark but there was this understanding between GW and players that it's not that serious and it had charm and "soul".
Original Warhammer creators grew up with Heavy Metal magazine (and music), sword & sorcery / pulp novels, Tolkien, love for history.
Contemporary Warhammer creators grew up with Disney Marvel, World of Warcraft and videogames.
I'll leave it to everyone's own interpretation which generation had better source of inspiration
No. Contemporary warhammer creators grew up with Dune and the recent social interest in religion.
Which explains why you see primarchs like guilleman being written as roman emperors rather than curze edgelords.
40k is slowly getting the Star Wars treatment. Star Wars originally was also a very dark setting, show throughout the expanded universe. But after being sold to Disney it became more and more sterilized to appeal to everyone and lost almost all of the original charm of what made Star Wars special. 40k is going through that same process slowly.
I don't know how else to say this but, at least as someone who's been reading a lot of stuff old and new, I just can't agree with this video.
Storm of Iron was definitely in this imagined "before everything was ruined by the woke SJWs" era and it was less grimdark than Skittarius, which is definitely of the newer era. Compared to just about any other major IP, 40K is still the grimmest and darkest that I've read. Ffs Game of Thrones and Witcher is pussy shit compared to 40K's brutality. Even in the sections of new lore where no one dies, it's still crushingly brutal.
Really sounds to me like the anti-sjws got into your head and now you can't look at this property without seeing all the things they want you to see, which is majorly impacting your ability to enjoy what's right in front of you.
Also old Orks are somehow "more grimdark"?
Orks have always been the comic relief faction in 40K and they were even GOOFIER in earlier editions.
The Big Dakka is a good story tho. Also granted I have only gotten in this hobby 2 years ago and I mainly due books or games but despite the whole primarch thing what else were they supposed to do?
Before Guilliman returned there was nothing. it was a constant stream of stories that boil down to "the Imperium is a rotting carcass of an empire that will soon fail" and we never see that. We never see the Imperium die out because they are the protagonists so without them there wouldn't be any 40k. You can't have the lore remain in that state because then why would anyone bother to read a book since they would know it wouldn't matter to the story.
So, besides The Primarchs returning what other plot could they use to push the story forward? The Tyranids? Half of the races back then would rather kill each other then help one another fight a common foe. Chaos getting stronger? Same shit with the Tyranids and we all saw how The End Times were received.
So bringing back Guilliman was the only way to revive this dead setting.
"Somehow Guilliman returned" is new somehow palpatine returned. :P
at least the guilliman one had build up and an attempt of an explanation.
Hot take: inclusion and diversity line up perfectly with grimdark because every human - regardless of race, gender and sexual orientation is considered canon fodder in the Emperium. A Commissar could give two squirts about who a guardsman is attracted to, they just care achieving goals. So on that note - I think 40k should be even more inclusive.
So long as that is kept offscreen and out of books, lore, miniatures and everything that says Warhammer, then I very much agree with you. If commissars don't give a fuck about your race, sexuality, etc. then that doesn't need to be shown or written about because the setting of Warhammer isn't about inclusivity, it's about nihilism and hopelessness, Just like you said.
This is something I've been worried about even as a newer fan. I got into the setting back in 2018 as a former star wars fan. So even though I didn't have prior knowledge of the setting I could tell when they were doing something stupid because well I'd seen it before. Heck I didn't even like the Primaris thing when I found out about it and that we before I even knew about the controversy. I have noticed the setting doesn't feel as grim dark as it should sometimes. I remember watching Luetin's video on the Daemonculaba a few years ago when it came out and that made me commit to the setting. I really fell in love with 40k because of that and read everything I could get my hands on. I have noticed this weird disconnect in tone between some of the lore but I kind of just thought that was the norm, like simple variation of the writers. I mean I still enjoy the setting more than I enjoy star wars right now, seriously you haven't seen terrible until you've seen Disney Star Wars. Even current 40k is such a step up in quality compared to that. However, I'd prefer it stop moving in the direction that it is. These periods of hope in 40k that we're seeing with the Primarchs returning I keep expecting the other shoe to drop. Like, dangling hope in front of you only to drop you into a viper pit, making that despair feel that much greater. But that doesn't seem to be what's going to happen.
Like, I wish that if they were going to being a Primarch back is they should be a detriment to the imperium rather than a help.
Death of Hope was the last gasp from the fans, I still watch it occasionally to feel the old 40k ambience and feel.
The "memefication" of the 40k setting and the multiplication of "lore channel" that try to push a very vulgarized version of the lore did (and is doing) more damage to the 40k lore than GW could ever have.
People like majorkill or bricky did (and keep doing) untold damage to perception of 40k by presenting very stupid and reductive visions of the setting.
Bricky in particular has become the "entry point" for many tourists with his constant barrage of videos poorly describing the setting in a way that would be palatable for zoomers.
I've been playing GW games since the late 80's, I started with Dark Future. 40k back then is completely different to what 40K was during the 3rd to 7th edition period.
8th to the current period is different in overall feel.
I think this boils down to how the hobby is a reflection of the zeitgeist of those times. For example, Mordheim just wouldn’t work now, as that tapped into the palatable fear of passing into a new millennium, Y2K and all the crazy dooms day cults that were around back then.
Then, we have to factor in how most of not all of the old guard have left GW. Those who are at the helm have a separation from why certain things were done, and may not have even been alive to experience the real world influences, so will have a disconect.
Then there is how GW has morphed into a 'lifestyle' brand (scented candles anyone), with a hobby attached, which is making it a lot of money. The GW of now is a far cry from. The old GW that was helmed by metal heads, who were interested in literature and history.
I'm not huge into Warhammer, but I feel like I've seen this before... I've been playing Magic the Gathering for a while, it's in a similar situation.
It's a general consensus in the community that the state of the game is deeply concerning, everything about the flavor, the setting, the new stories, the new products. How they handled previous and stablished lore, it's legacy, it's meaning. It feels like it was all flushed down the toilet in favor of short term gains and need for profit.
They play it safe, disregard the hardcore fans, tries to appeal to everyone, and forget what it was all about.
It draws more money than ever but it's soul is not there anymore, no essence, just a husk, an empty shell.
Is hard to greet new players, they come exited for the new stuff and you stand there thinking "Man, if only you were here when they really cared. You missed out...".
you said youll get me a beer so you better get me a beer
Majorkill and his popularity is 100% not helping this. Sometimes he acts like he wants 40k to be less grimdark
You don't watch majorkill do you???
He's a cancer to be sure
I used to watch Majorkill but he's a giant douche bag. The Logan Paul of Warhammer TH-camrs.
@@gabrielalexanderkemp one of the biggest critics on how GW is going soft, but since no one watches him they dont know he's (mostly) on the average hobbyists side
@@gabrielalexanderkemp not that much rn, but i watched him all the time last year so ik what I'm talking abt
I, for one, am keeping the grimdark vision alive in my heart and my models - I love 40k and GW can go to hell, I'm printing everything.
4:13 i would say that is like half the explanation of what grim dark is, in the end i would add something like for a necessary reason or a valid justification rather then being dark for the sake of it or else it would just be grim derp
It was for adults back then..
Yep. A trend I've noticed is that franchises are no longer allowed to be mature. Mature in the sense of having elements that make people uncomfortable.
We can have gore, but cleavage?! No no no, Miss, you put those disgusting breastuses away!
It shows how sanitized everything is now.
When? When there was liteunant Ginn N'tonik?
@@Keram-io8hv Don't forget the inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau, that's a character only a mature adult would understand
@@thepicbloke7246 Oh yeah definetly
I agree and I’ll add on my own lil personal pet peeve with the T’au.
The concept of the T’au being the actual good guys (less brain-washing and more or less a more traditional empire that wanted to unite various races under one banner) and being utterly useless in the setting is… arguably more Grim-Dark than them being a miniature imperium the entire time.
Public stock is the death knell of any good, passionate endeavor.
I agree and disagree with your take. (TLDR, a little hope is a good thing, zero hope isn't). In my opinion, by the definition you use, true grimdark doesn't make a particularly compelling story because it leaves no room for plot. If you need there to be zero hope, then there will be no incentive for the characters to try to improve their lot and you'll end up with no narrative, just setting. I got into 40K at the beginning of 6th edition and this was the situation the IP was in. I was hooked by the art style and the depth of the lore, but I wished the story would go somewhere. It was a setting that captivated my imagination, but my imagination would always think of places that the story could go. When they decided to bring back the Primarchs, I thought that was a good decision by GW because it allowed the setting to have a plot and narrative progression. Let me be clear, you can have a little bit of hope and still have a very dark setting and tone and I think that's the perfect place for the setting to be. Is this the place 40k is in or the place I think it's going? No. They're brightening it up too much and slowly taking the uniqueness out to cater to normies. While I think bringing the Primarchs back was good, I think the primaris marines are lame, tacky and pointless, Belisarius Cawl is a bit of a Mary Sue (though hardly the first or only Mary Sue in the setting) and 21st century, left-wing political sensibilities have no place in the Imperium of Man.
@bloodeagle7668 Right I see this too often comments in this area.
Of course I didn't mention in the video because I thought it didn't need explaining but I was proven wrong.
People don't understand between the difference of setting and story. They are two separate things. I argue about the setting that has to be consistent with its rules that has set its self, you are implying about story that needs to move forward to make it interesting. Two different things.
Setting is like the background with its rules implied, yes there's no hope if we go by grimdarks definition. not my definition I go for. look on google search it defines well what grimdark is.
The story is a layer in front of the setting playing around on its set rules.
But does that mean the characters in the story should not have hope, no. The characters are themselves and play along with the rules applied in the setting.
The character has a little hope, surviving as much as it can to help people around and it might be killed harshly on the next to tell the viewer that this setting does not sugar coat it.
The problem I see is people too often try to imply the story AS the setting and not the other way around.
@@TheNellop I understand that setting and story are two different things, but they effect each other. Story choices influence the setting and the setting limits what story choices make sense. For instance, one of the gripes you bring up is that in the new lore, the Imperium has gained some avenues for progress, both on the battlefield (through the return of the Primarchs) and technologically (through technologies introduced by Belisarius Cawl). I see the introduction of new characters, particularly POV characters like Guilliman, the Lion and Cawl as story choices more than setting choices. Your argument, as I understand it, is that the introduction of these characters makes the setting less Grimdark because Primarchs are OP characters that aren't quite as challenged by the setting. To me, seeing the factions and characters shift to adapt to the presence of the new characters represents interesting development and a good direction for the story. I do think that the setting being dark, gritty and edgy is a big part of the charm of 40k, but also that keeping the lore as Grimdark as it was in 3rd edition limits the creative choices for the story too much.
@@bloodeagle7668 Correct and I disagree.
3rd and 4th ed do well and being consistent the setting of 40k.
You play chess and you're limited of what you can do with the pieces but you can play different, hundreds of times.
When there's limitations it makes the person work more with proper care they will do much more than someone who has unlimited because at that point they don't try and do the least amount of effort.
The problem with the whole 8th ed with Cawl Guilliman and other stuff. The story not only didn't get challenged they purely contradict the setting entirely.
Because it contradicts the setting it is no longer grimdark because now you have progress in technology from a convenient smart guy shoved in there because why not, primaris, primarchs coming back because gw wanted money.
You cant have progress of story and not follow the setting because once you contradict that setting then the setting is not the same.
I have seen comments say well its more of nobledark than grimdark. which I would be fine with it.......but problem they contradict that on 8th,9th, 10th ed codex still implying its still grimdark meanwhile in 9th ed trailer in the end saying a new dark age which contradicts the codexes.
I would agree if it was a different setting but the problem is GW and the people who bought into it LIE to themselves. That is my major problem with these people and they don't do their homework to make from old to new comparison.
Ill be honest GW should've killed 40k and start a new ip like what they did with fantasy than dangling its corpse and pretend that its grimdark. Its not.
I enjoy this chat thanks for the comment my man. 🍻
@@TheNellop Not much more I can say here without repeating myself. We just have slightly different visions of what the right place for 40k is. I agree with some of your points about the new lore but I can't agree with all of them because some of what I see also looks like legitimately good stories to me and I don't think the entire IP is ruined, it just needs a course correction.
Cheers man🍻 thanks for the discussion. I appreciate you replying to my comment.
It wasnt until gw made a model so bad so unlikeable that the shills actually had to speak out on it
I remember years and years ago hearing about 40k and going "wow, that's dark as hell for no reason. Guess it's just not for me" and then a few years after that going "wow, this is cool as hell. What the hell happened?"
I think it's fair to say 40k is currently in Nobledark territory
Facts. I think its because the story is progressing, but it should be purposely tied to the primarchs coming back and the emperor awakening.
@@honkhonk8009 Absolutely, and there is no guarantee this current state of resurgence will last, and even if it does who's to say things would move out of NobleDark? Ultimately I think 40k should never be truly NobleBright though the odd moment here and there is cool (though really these moments are usually more GrimBright considering the wider context)
Now I'm beggining to know why most nonames youtube channels are only making doomer videos about wokes etc.... A shiity youtube channels with 700 subs and almost 40.000 views.... Jeez what a shitty new youtube meta
Straight dude: For the Emperor of mankind!
Based Christiam crusader 😊
Gay dude: For the Emperor of mankind!
What the hell is this fall of the west 😡
Yes
I can't stand the Primaris. Even if you ignore all the other issues with them I just think their armor design makes them look like Buzz Lightyear, which is just about the furthest you can get from Grimdark.
I got into the hobby properly at the start of 6th edition Fantasy and 4th edition 40k. The art, setting and feeling of older warhammer is just vastly superior in my opinion. I've pretty much decided to ignore anything released after those editions and I buy most of my models 2nd hand.
I like the setting of 40k with warp and it's not-magic and weird tech-churches and superhuman fighting horrors beyond our comprehension, but i don't like hopeless stories, i'm not saying about saving the galaxy, but improve life of one planet, and then try to help other planet, and if you keep doing it, and other keep trying it, then maybe, just maybe you together will manage prevention of the Imperium from total decay, no matter how shit the galaxy is there is always a reason to try make it a little better. Is there a place for a story like this, can there be a character with this mindset, or is it to hopeful for warhammer? Well i guess i am a poser, so my opinion is invalid.
you seem like a very weak person
@@MGrey-qb5xz his bench press weight is 2 teddy bears for 3 reps as his max.
Do you have a community discord server or anything? I'd love to talk about some of this. (The invite link in the description is invalid)
Technically I have a discord server but it hasnt been active for a while but you are welcome to join in. Thank you for letting me know about the link it should be updated now.
14:07 you know, orks are pretty strong, from being able to rip space marines apart with their bare hands to even cutting them in half vertically with an axe swing
Orks don't hardly belong in modern 40k.
It's an indication of how badly broken the setting has become.
Orks are fun.
Modern 40k is not fun.
Hey man , as someone whose first contact with 40k was 4TH Edition and been subsecuently playing since 5th thorugh current edition , I can confirm Warhammer 40.000 was waaaay better back in the day , want to know why , because it was a cult classic for a niche group of people , even tho Warhammer as a whole was fairly popular .
It was unapologeticly edgy and violent ( yes warhammer is still violent , but not cosmic horror violent ) , but also pretty introspective , best example of this would be Hellsreach (I could elaborate on this but would take too long ) . I can only say Warhammer 40k back in the day felt like Hellsreach and current 40k feels like Dark Imperium .
I myself like the Primaris Sculpts and I like how they simplyfied the rules for a quick game , but also I will say , 40k lost part of its identity in the process. Thas why modern 40k is such a hit or miss.
Finally I would say Im glad that I found this chanel and im glad that someone who started in 8th revisited the older editions . Keep up the good work yove got a new sub !
I’ve been with the hobby for 25+- years, I have lived past and present GW and I think you are being incredibly subjective with what you are choosing to focus on in past and present GW. You have made your mind up and are just looking for things to bolster your opinion.
It’s probably time for you to move on, because you can’t wind the clock back (and if you could, from what you are saying here you wouldn’t find the GW you think you remember).
watching this video reminds me of when disney took over star wars and fans were pissed.
I don't know the older stuff but if i were to make that comparison it would be like comparing it to old school 2000ad comics. So A.B.C Warriors, Nemesis/Torquemada, Judge Dredd when Judge Cal was in charge and maybe even The Authority comic books (was it Dark horse comics? I forget) first annual Relentless and then compare it to your average Marvel movie.
Btw seriously check out old A.B.C Warriors and Nemesis/Torquemada series if you want grim dark. Human lives are nothing there and the cult like worship of Torquemada rivals even the worship of the emperor. Also, the art is fantastic and super gritty.
Judge Dredd is also pretty grim with him just maiming people for dropping litter or something.
That book The Authority is like Justice League if they decided that it would be easier to just kill their opponents rather than lock them up to escape again 5 minutes later. Also, you see what the world would be like if dictators/ terrorists could just create superhumans as weapons rather than use bombs (hint, whole recognisable cities getting wiped out in an afternoon with no deus ex machina to bring them back 😅)
40k is still pretty grim dark, as much as everyone loves to dump on the primaris marines in the lore and canon they still die left and right. Sure they are a better version of the space marines (pretty much confirmed the raptors project the Emperor gave to corax before alpha legion corrupting it). But its still very much a losing battle, just more slowly and everything is still folding in all at once on the Impeurium.
Originaly I thought that the primaris were an excuse for a larger scale. Now, I get it why people dump on the primaris. The lore.
People cry about how primaris broke the lore
Dude, they were just +- 15% more efficient and Cawl was working on that for ten thousand years
@@Keram-io8hv and lore incorporation
you're supposed to say Co-D-seas
If you like the grim dark feel of 3/4 edition, you should read the Inquisitor game rulebook. It was a larger scale game, but it had the absolute darkest lore i can remember.
primaris marines are lore breaking. the emperor explicitly forbid gene alterations. there is exactly zero chance guilimen would ignore that. as far as im concerned it didnt happen. it breaks canon therefore it is not canon.
40k will always be the early 40k to me. i still have my original copy of rogue trader and i love the world they built back then. the new stuff is just flat and dead. its 40k by comity.
Just wait til they find out about the Maraviglia incident. If it wasn’t grimdark it would have been a tea party
@louisnguyen6610 Yeah but thats horus heresy so it dont count lol.
Man I just hope they don’t try to do this with chaos marines they’re my favorite faction