The essence of Grimdark is the phrase “To Rage against the dying of the Light” Everything sucks, everyone’s fucked, but all it takes is that one solider that makes it through or that one squad that holds the line at all costs that can make it even a small iota better. The most noble aspect of humanity is our ability to live through even the worst thrown at us by an uncaring universe, be it through wit or pure tenacity. Grimdark can only be dark in contrast to the light that it’s attempting to suffocate.
Yep, I've been making that point for a long time when trying to explain why I dislike Warhammer 40k- because by making the scale of it's universe so grand, it fails to execute this idea due to nobody caring about "just another 50 planets", whereas Warhammer Fantasy succeeds because once a city is burned, it's burned, and the consequences are serious when one soldier manages to hold the line allowing civilians to escape from scavens. To emulate the same feeling of "destruction has consequences", writers of 40k create events of such a scale that actions of individual people are completely meaningless. It might not fail as a grimdark setting to somebody else, but for these reasons it fails to me.
@@starhalv2427 I think the banality and scale of the atrocities that occur in 40k adds to the grim darkness, it’s one thing dealing with an orc WAAAGH at your city’s gates, but the Tyranids? Imagine you were in charge of tithe for a sector, only to see they’ve stopped sending their tithes. You chalk it up to another rebellion and send a guard regiment to beat them back into submission. Only for the only report to come back is pictures of once verdant worlds turned to dead rocks and the sounds of venerated battleships buckling under the weight of a living ship’s maw. It might not be strictly Eldritch but to me that’s a cosmic horror that’s terrifying at the surface, before you realize they’re coming from every angle into the galaxy.
@@starhalv2427 well the fall of cadia certainly had consequences. And the "end times" of warhammer fantasy didn't work out too well when stuff had "consequences"
@@starhalv2427honestly, what I love about warhammer 40k is the little stories of people living their lives, the soldiers trying to live another day, the space marine trying to fulfill his duty no matter what challenges lie ahead, or the being attempting to preserves the legacies and memories of a galaxy ablaze. Their fates and actions may not matter in the greater setting, yet they still press forwards, and you hope that sometime somehow they will see their lives fulfilled.
"What is the point of Grimdark?" Hope. Good grimdark is never a 100% evil. It should always allow a tiny sliver of hope so that tomorrow, while never promised, is feasible. Today sucked, but tomorrow might be better, if only slightly.
Darkest Dungeon nails this. Especially DD2, since it follows the apocalypse that came after the events of the first game. In DD2 they focus a lot on the small, otherwise unnoticeable moments of well-being that existed in the world before a lovecraftian apocalypse (a good meal, a favor from a friend, a calm day, etc) because its those moments of genuine peace that the characters in the world fight for; in spite of the horrors that permeate the world around them.
No, grimdark is specifically the genre with no heros and no happy endings, If you want to see hope and perseverance rewarded, then any other genre is better
@@DarkJusn2020 To just indulge in tragedy. What about Whim Dark though? A bi polar world of bubbly Hello Kitty sequel happiness and Warhamer 40k Darkness for dramatic effect. The idea that some groups and species live in bliss and get away with it where as others usually individuals can experience extreme darkness.
Something that I found years ago was a story that made a distinction from grimdark by describing it's tone as noblebright. It describes grimdark with these qualities: • The world is in slow, painful, decline. • Your best efforts will only serve to slow down the inevitable. • Life is cheap. Death, including massive body counts, is distressingly common. • The innocent exist to be victims of the strong. • Heroes are naive fools. And it describes noblebright with these qualities: • The world is emerging from an age of darkness. • You can make a difference, no matter how small. • Even in the midst of mass death, every life you can save is precious. • The innocent deserve to be protected from the strong. • Heroes are naive fools… but they are naive fools who can make a difference.
seems like a setting would always do better to just incorporate both instead of either or. Dunno why people want a monochrome setting so badly when every series that gets universal appraise (and isnt comedic slop) is one that incorporates noblebright and grimdark aspects
Nice what are some examples of noblebright stories Kind of interesting that they would use "noble" to describe a subgenre where the weak should be protected from the strong
The hope that even though the world is in a longer than normal winter, spring will eventually come. A fool's hope perhaps. But one that keeps mankind going. We wouldn't have the luxuries and bountiful harvests we have today if our ancestors all gave up when the world was a much grimer place to live. We owe them our thanks, for staying hopeful even amidst our darkest age
Could go harder: "What hope can you find in a world where flowers no longer bloom? Where grass gave up on growing?" Because grass not growing is even more messed up, considering it grows everywhere.
i think berserk: the lost children arc is pretty good example of a good grimdark story, it is grounded in its own reality and rules, the darkness part is very present too, and i think the concution of it is exacly what grimdark is all about.
The innocence and drive of Jill, the arguable protagonist for the arc, I think likewise is a major reason why the arc holds as much as it does; Without her faith in things to be able to become better, for there to be a place far away for her, but also an acceptance that she can learn and grow with hope, I think is what cements it in the turmoil of the perversions of dreams and nightmares which Rosine and Guts stand for.
Except when races get along to squash Tyranids. Also some planets are pretty nice to live on. Also Tau were done dirty. They should've remained unapologetically good, with the grim aspect being them having no impact on the galaxy.
The grim darkness is once you realize that the light that shines is just an anglerfish's bait. The true light is far, far out of reach, and one must brave the darkness to find it. Brave the darkness alone, and in all likelihood, die forgotten instead. The vast masses will instead follow the bright light they see in front of them; they will die on the lines, drawn to the light as moths to a flame, ignorant to the teeth closing in around them. "Indomitable Human Spirit" is a red herring.
@secutorprimus There is no other light in most settings other than the one which can at least mean you get to live for long enough to get a small chance at life. Perhaps sometimes there is another light but most of the time there is the light and there is deception. And often the light is dying. And who is to say that other light is not simply a farther anglerfish, if it is the case that the closer one is?
@@hudsonflores5478 Humanity, in this setting, is doomed because they are terrified to search for other lights. Despite the fact that this light scorches their flesh, they cling to the dying flame as it sinks into the murky depths, entirely unwilling to abandon it to search for sunlight.
0:45 i'm kind of a history nerd and i'll always remember vividly that time I saw a picture taken of Verdun right after the end of WWI, the picture was of course in black and white so it didn't help the feeling but. Desvastation, as far as the eye can see. Common and generic hills of the France landscape, completelly deformed by shell impact, the earth completelly turned over and a disfigurded landscape everywhere, probably still corpses under the soil and shells that didn't detonate on impact (we find some even to this day). And I remember thinking "If there is a Hell then I think this is it."
But then you realise it isn't hell, it is something worse, because innocents are not sent to hell. That's the true horror of our reality. No matter who you are, and how good you are, even if you have the best intentions, you can, and will probably, get fucked. That's pretty grim.
In Trench Crussade you either pldedge yoruself to: - The Lord God who might not love you - The Dark Lord who might betray you - The Invaders from beyond who's transcendence might not be as fun And well, I am glad to see a hard hitting (vibe and art wise) competitor to 40K that is in the grimdark setting that is interesting and takes similar inspirations as it, but does not look like a rip-off. And the main tenure off Grimdark is, I think, best represented as quote form Annihilation by Jeff Vandermeer: "Noone commits suicide, but we all self destruct". None wants to die, in even the last flash you will fight to stay alive, but the situation you are in will grind your body down. The more "hopefull" qupte for Grimdark would be "As long as we're alive we will continue fighting"
To me Grimdark is ultimate exaltation of human agency. If there is no hope, or even no hope for hope, just living is a choice. In such situation if someone tries to rise they become hero, even if their fate is equaly grim. Those strong enough keep fighting and if they are skilled enough they could restore a little bit of hope if not for the world, then for some small part of it.
Grimdark is the rendered fat of the universal human feeling of despair. So many people have to keep day by day without the idea of hope to pull them along. Grimdark is a strata of those people's lives.
I just got into a novel that made me start thinking about how anyone would be able to keep going in a world where everyone is suffering in some way with no real hopes for a better future and now I see this. It doesn't feel so much like suffering porn anymore.
@@matthiasthulman4058 I'm not sure if it's a good one, I just couldn't drop it because it was somewhat interesting watching the main character's dilemma over his twisted sense of justice and morals while he's obsessed with revenge... but if you want to bite: Zilbagias the demon prince. It's the typical rpg fantasy setting, a hero died and was reincarnated as the child of the demon that killed him. Only read 2 volumes but it's filled with mildly disturbing content (like all the various ways of torturing a pseudo-immortal being that heals from any damage for years to the point she would rather live as a dog than relive the memories by regaining her sense of self... They made paper from her skin, limitless supply), all the races at war have no hope, they're just fighting to survive and it's not something that can be fixed or will get better.
Grimdark to me is the fact that the end is coming and there is nothing you can do to stop it, but endlessly struggle against it. You can slow it down, but never truly stop. That almost pointless defiant struggle is what so appealing about it. It mirrors the human struggle in life that many nihilist say as is pointless. Unlike other stories that give a sorta price for the struggle, grimdark give no such illusion, you live, you suffer, you endure, then you die, that it. But the highlight are those that find the strength to keep fighting even if all hope is lost, even if there is no price at the end. To have the audacity to push even just a little the unstoppable encroaching darkness and tell it "not today". That's grimdark to me, the end is coming but you can make it a glorious end.
Imagine being isekaid into a grimdark world where you are the only hope. 99% of everything is in a state of living decay as an unspeakable abomination has swept the world. Only 3 "havens" exist with all 3 merely waiting to fall. You can stop the cursed, but you are the herald of the forbidden God. Thus, even those you could save actively seek your death. If you could save a grimdark world, would it even be worth it?
Yeah. If I was plopped into a Grimdark verse with Superman-esque powers, I would 100% try my damn hardest. Because while I may fail in saving it in the end, I'd have pushed the dark clouds far enough that more seekers of light could continue hoping and fighting and living for a better future. I'd do my best to fight for hope, justice, and a better future.
@@mikedanielespeja6128Then something similar happens to Warhammer 40k were the Emperor is a figure like that, but the Empire and humanity is still suffering.
As Brian Herbert (son of Dune's Frank Herbert) and Kevin J Anderson 'finished' the Dune saga...there was a little side story about an agent on IX trying to take part in a rebellion. As much as I dug the stories about the Butlerian Jihad, early Idaho and Halleck...the story of that lone agent under tremendous pressure has always stayed with me. What you capture in your excellent essay reminds me totally of him and the knowledge despite his bare escapes...the doom that awaited him. Thanks.
Parasitoid wasps are monstrous, and I heard they contributed to Darwin's conclusion that an all loving God does not exist. They dig a burrow, find a caterpillar, paralyze it then pull it into the burrow, lay their eggs on it, then seal it shut. Really screwed up stuff.
Very interesting points, and good call showing these settings. Grimdark is a hard "genre" to nail because it's not exactly a genre, I think. People usually use it for other genres like dark fantasy, survival horror or sword and sorcery settings. It was deliberately used by publishers as a catch-term for sword and sorcery, feeling the term outdated, but no one can define what it is as a result. It was co-opted from Warhammer, with no regard for what makes Warhammer "grimdark." And now it's used for anything that's just slightly dark. Much like how cosmic horror is now frequently overused. And I think you caught onto what makes Trench Crusade in particular "grimdark" with its bleak and terrifying setting.
I like referring to the "grimdark spectrum" because it isn't really a thing. Just some stuff is on that spectrum. Not all of it wears its grimdark on its sleeve. Stuff like Arcane, Dune 2, Dunkirk.
@@j.f.fisher5318 Discussing it as a spectrum can be useful, but only insofar as you can discuss any other genre as a spectrum. But none of those titles are even remotely grimdark.
I love this channel it always introduces me to new things or offers a new perspective. I personally like Grimdark when it's done well. I'm a very pessimistic person so I find comfort in the dark and hopeless worlds I often view this world as being. But something that's consistent in these stories mentioned here is hope. I'm unsure if Fear and Hunger is Grimdark, but there are moments of hope and peace, despite the inevitable suffering. It makes me feel a little less silly for enjoying the small things. A good cup of coffee, waking up cozy. Even if you have no faith in the world and humanity, enjoy the little joys you have, no matter how silly they are. It's your life, love it when you can.
99% of Grim dark is literally just realistic fantasy. It's not darker fantasy. People use grim dark far too liberally, to pretend like a song of ice and fire and the 40k universes are in the same category is ridiculous. There is nothing grim or dark about 99% of grim dark settings. It's just more realistic and grounded
Grimdark only works if there is someone who is ultimately trying to do some good in the world, and is beaten down each and every time, until one day...he succeeds. The brightest light is the sun rise after great darkness.
That's the opposite of grimdark. It might be on the spectrum to a degree, but it isn't grimdark. Dunkirk, Dune 2, or Arcane are far more grimdark than that.
@@j.f.fisher5318 arcane isn't even grimdark, it has heros, hope, and a lot of people doing ok in life/changing the world for the better it is dark sure, but not grimdark
As someone from the subtropics, whose seen frost a literal nonmetaphorical handful of times, winter is ''thank the stars it's now less than 100 degrees!''.
I am genuinely shocked you made a video on the topic of Grimdark without even coming close to talk a little bit about Warhammer or Hollow Knight. So, to a large extent, that breaks my heart.
The whole point of Grimdark is contrast it makes those moments of victory or humanity so much more poignant. As the great Morpheus in Neil Gaiman's Sandman says: Hope
I absolutely love that you used the "Resting Grounds" Song from the Hollow Knight soundtrack, very fitting. Great video, thank you for not going for the more obvious well-known examples of the genre but using the chance to promote some more unknown ones instead.
I thought Warhammer was messed up (from my limited knowledge), but good lord. This is just nightmare fuel. At least the Space Marines have the bravado of brotherhood that makes pretty much everyone go, hell yeah!
Grimdark speaks to my resolve to keep going. If men live in a world worse than mine, and choose to keep living, refusing to give up... then they're stronger than I could ever be, and they're leaders I can look to for an example. By looking to these characters, I find a lot of my fears and anxieties about our modern world become unfounded. Their lives suck, but they still choose acts of heroism and ambition, becoming the best depictions of being human. The worst thing I'll ever have to compare to their plight is finding a new job, or paying my bills. Truly the greatest horrors of my comfortable life. I think the only grimdark that truly works is the sort where people are at their best and the world is at its worst. Like a soldier giving a small child a flower on a battlefield, or being locked in an armed standoff with another survivor and both of you choosing to drop your weapons; that sort of thing. The idea that, no matter how bad it gets, you can still make choices, and you can still make the most of a terrible situation.
I was very interested in Tench Crusade because it has an awesome aesthetic and world, I quite enjoy playing Warhammer 40K with friends on the weekends so it would've been a cool alternative to play every now and then. Flash forward like a year later, and color me surprised when I found out, can't remember if it was one of the creators or a community manager, but that person blatantly said that 40K players are not welcome in their community and can go eff themselves, since no one was reprimanded for such a post, I can assume that statement is also shared by the company and I refuse to support people who dislike me, to quote Leon S. Kennedy from the original Resident Evil 4 " No thanks, bro".
Grimdark for the sake of being grimdark something I will always look down on. If there is some intent to explore holding fast in a world that gives you little reason to, I will respect it. The only reason to make the former is to reflect a terrible quality in one's own soul.
I feel like theres a difference between things like berserk and 40k. Berserk feels like there is light at the end of the tunnel. It feels like maybe just dark fantasy? But i feel like with 40k and what i fear with trench crusade as someone who is only interested in lore is the lack of progression. In a need to keep things always hopeless there are rarely any major victories. And when there are i feel like they are called less grim dark. I could be wrong though
I spent my evening scrolling through video essays on Forever Winter and Trench Crusade, so I applaud the algorithm for actually putting your vid in front of me successfully
I feel like the biggest problem with Grimdark, which is why it’s normally relegated to game backgrounds, is that it can only really exist for a setting, not for a plot. True grimdark is antithetical to storytelling, hence why any Warhammer narratives are always more positive than the background material. Any stories fall into a catch-22; either the grim darkness holds and the story reaches a disappointing, unfulfilling end, or the story is small enough against the backdrop that it can feature achievement and hope, in which case it loses the soul crushing weight of the setting.
I love Warhammer 40k and in my opinion, the reason why the grim dark there is so good is because there's still hope no matter the horrors they encounter.
16:06 - I can already hear a symphony of pitches from a bunch of Aztek death whistles being used for this forest of flutewoods. 😍 I don't know, it sounds haunting but also beautiful in my head.
Honestly, personally I think Vermis is quite hopeful. As a world, I would say it isn't that far from our own. Lots of shit has happened in the past, being at some places and times can lead to certain and painful death or worse and there's no telling of the future. But just as there is potential for a bad life, there is potential for a good one. In real life, we may not be the result of a great fall of civilization, but the future is yet uncertain. The only true constant is change. Change by it's own metric. That can always go either way. In grim dark, like in utopia, like anywhere else. Any emotions, positive or negative, are always made by relativity. No matter the place, or the world, there is always a reason to be happy. Or to be unhappy, for that matter. In a world without flowers, we can find joy in the grass. In a world with no grass, we can find joy in the geometric form of some rubble. In a world with flowers, we can find anger in the abscence of gardens. In a world with gardens, we can be angry at the abscence of... geometrically shaped rubble? Some will be. The point at which one goes in what direction and to what point, is up to one self. Great video!
"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."
But it’s also really fun to write in grimdark, because if you want a story where the light overcoming the dark is truly a spectacular and wondrous thing to behold, and not just some bland predictable given event, it can make the ultimate setting for it, as long as you are willing to throw away plot armor, up the stakes, throw down the kid gauntlets, and let the antagonists have a sizable amount of relevant victories
Easy one, to be on a knifes edge, the fine line between a fickle ember of hope and utter despair. It is to see the triumph of humanity in that most darkest hour, it is glorious
Grimdark reminds me of our horrible potential but to keep going. This is why we need stories like this to remind us what we could become but also that we ourselves can still be good despite. The world sucks but the stories about the individuals continuing to fight or do good that make it despite what lifes given them makes it imp. It doesn't matter if the world will get better what matters is the fight
Grimdarkness exist so that when you thought you will have a happy ending, you will get smacked to the face with realization that you are just a spec of dust in the grander scheme
If you like cod zombies, alt ww1 and grimdark you might like hunt showdown and especially the lore around it. The vibe is less "dead" and more "what remains after a huge storm" but the aesthetic is top tier
Ah grimdark, my favorite genera. Where heroes stand against all odds just to spite a cold and unfeeling universe that will never know they existed. Thank you for making this video.
Great video. I too love me grim dark worlds. The world I am working for my TTRPG is very grim dark. People are forced to live under massive pale trees for outside of their branches a miasma fills the land mutating any living creature into a variety or eldritch monsters. A stable crop for those living under the tress is the Rotbulbs a large, bulbous plants that emit a foul odor as they grow, feeding off decaying flesh and skin of the dead or dying. The bulbs can be mashed and cooked into a paste that is a staple in many dishes.
Aside from this being a suspiciously timed recommendation by TH-cam this game/ world sound 'beautiful' ( sounds funked up but i can't put it in a better way) and the conseptart is insane like you said I wish my mind was this funked up!
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
The essence of Grimdark is the phrase “To Rage against the dying of the Light”
Everything sucks, everyone’s fucked, but all it takes is that one solider that makes it through or that one squad that holds the line at all costs that can make it even a small iota better. The most noble aspect of humanity is our ability to live through even the worst thrown at us by an uncaring universe, be it through wit or pure tenacity.
Grimdark can only be dark in contrast to the light that it’s attempting to suffocate.
Yep, I've been making that point for a long time when trying to explain why I dislike Warhammer 40k- because by making the scale of it's universe so grand, it fails to execute this idea due to nobody caring about "just another 50 planets", whereas Warhammer Fantasy succeeds because once a city is burned, it's burned, and the consequences are serious when one soldier manages to hold the line allowing civilians to escape from scavens. To emulate the same feeling of "destruction has consequences", writers of 40k create events of such a scale that actions of individual people are completely meaningless. It might not fail as a grimdark setting to somebody else, but for these reasons it fails to me.
@@starhalv2427 I think the banality and scale of the atrocities that occur in 40k adds to the grim darkness, it’s one thing dealing with an orc WAAAGH at your city’s gates, but the Tyranids?
Imagine you were in charge of tithe for a sector, only to see they’ve stopped sending their tithes. You chalk it up to another rebellion and send a guard regiment to beat them back into submission.
Only for the only report to come back is pictures of once verdant worlds turned to dead rocks and the sounds of venerated battleships buckling under the weight of a living ship’s maw. It might not be strictly Eldritch but to me that’s a cosmic horror that’s terrifying at the surface, before you realize they’re coming from every angle into the galaxy.
@@starhalv2427 well the fall of cadia certainly had consequences. And the "end times" of warhammer fantasy didn't work out too well when stuff had "consequences"
My issue in grimdark worlds is if everything sucks so much why does anyone live? Like why not game-end yourself the moment you're able to?
@@starhalv2427honestly, what I love about warhammer 40k is the little stories of people living their lives, the soldiers trying to live another day, the space marine trying to fulfill his duty no matter what challenges lie ahead, or the being attempting to preserves the legacies and memories of a galaxy ablaze. Their fates and actions may not matter in the greater setting, yet they still press forwards, and you hope that sometime somehow they will see their lives fulfilled.
"What is the point of Grimdark?"
Hope.
Good grimdark is never a 100% evil. It should always allow a tiny sliver of hope so that tomorrow, while never promised, is feasible. Today sucked, but tomorrow might be better, if only slightly.
Darkest Dungeon nails this. Especially DD2, since it follows the apocalypse that came after the events of the first game. In DD2 they focus a lot on the small, otherwise unnoticeable moments of well-being that existed in the world before a lovecraftian apocalypse (a good meal, a favor from a friend, a calm day, etc) because its those moments of genuine peace that the characters in the world fight for; in spite of the horrors that permeate the world around them.
No, grimdark is specifically the genre with no heros and no happy endings,
If you want to see hope and perseverance rewarded, then any other genre is better
@@theeviloverlord7320 Then we end up again at the beginning. What's the point?
@@DarkJusn2020 To just indulge in tragedy. What about Whim Dark though? A bi polar world of bubbly Hello Kitty sequel happiness and Warhamer 40k Darkness for dramatic effect. The idea that some groups and species live in bliss and get away with it where as others usually individuals can experience extreme darkness.
Not if you're a character in a Joe Abercrombie book.
Something that I found years ago was a story that made a distinction from grimdark by describing it's tone as noblebright. It describes grimdark with these qualities:
• The world is in slow, painful, decline.
• Your best efforts will only serve to slow down the inevitable.
• Life is cheap. Death, including massive body counts, is distressingly common.
• The innocent exist to be victims of the strong.
• Heroes are naive fools.
And it describes noblebright with these qualities:
• The world is emerging from an age of darkness.
• You can make a difference, no matter how small.
• Even in the midst of mass death, every life you can save is precious.
• The innocent deserve to be protected from the strong.
• Heroes are naive fools… but they are naive fools who can make a difference.
"Even in the midst of mass death, every life you can save is precious." Favourite.
Sounds like I'll have a good sequel to my grim dark setting with this idea. Thanks for the description
seems like a setting would always do better to just incorporate both instead of either or. Dunno why people want a monochrome setting so badly when every series that gets universal appraise (and isnt comedic slop) is one that incorporates noblebright and grimdark aspects
Such an interesting distinction!
Nice what are some examples of noblebright stories
Kind of interesting that they would use "noble" to describe a subgenre where the weak should be protected from the strong
"what hope can you find in a world where flowers no longer bloom?"
that line goes so hard wtf
Reminds me of Mistborn.
The hope that even though the world is in a longer than normal winter, spring will eventually come.
A fool's hope perhaps. But one that keeps mankind going.
We wouldn't have the luxuries and bountiful harvests we have today if our ancestors all gave up when the world was a much grimer place to live.
We owe them our thanks, for staying hopeful even amidst our darkest age
Could go harder: "What hope can you find in a world where flowers no longer bloom? Where grass gave up on growing?"
Because grass not growing is even more messed up, considering it grows everywhere.
One Day the Only Butterflies Will be in your Chest
Meanwhile in WH40k soldier gets eaten by giant carnivorous flower...
Grimdark exists so that Don Quixote could grace our eyes
PROJECT MOON MENTIONED!!!!!1!🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
And especially our ears!
The old ass knight?
The knight from the Spanish novel or the one piece character?
Or the project moon one?
i think berserk: the lost children arc is pretty good example of a good grimdark story, it is grounded in its own reality and rules, the darkness part is very present too, and i think the concution of it is exacly what grimdark is all about.
And human makes a monster pee themselves in fear. That's a nice bonus too.
The innocence and drive of Jill, the arguable protagonist for the arc, I think likewise is a major reason why the arc holds as much as it does; Without her faith in things to be able to become better, for there to be a place far away for her, but also an acceptance that she can learn and grow with hope, I think is what cements it in the turmoil of the perversions of dreams and nightmares which Rosine and Guts stand for.
"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war..."
Except when races get along to squash Tyranids. Also some planets are pretty nice to live on.
Also Tau were done dirty. They should've remained unapologetically good, with the grim aspect being them having no impact on the galaxy.
The grimdark future is now.
Like in Ukraine right now...
*_WAAAGH_*
Gives me shivers just to read it.
"Why tf are there robots in 1918?"
Me, a CoD Zombies nerd: "Well you see..."
I wouldn't mind hearing more about that.
It would take 2 hours to fully explain the zombies timeline
The indomitable human spirit shines brightest when surrounded by the grim darkness
And Then There Xeeleeverse made you hated humanity.
The grim darkness is once you realize that the light that shines is just an anglerfish's bait. The true light is far, far out of reach, and one must brave the darkness to find it. Brave the darkness alone, and in all likelihood, die forgotten instead. The vast masses will instead follow the bright light they see in front of them; they will die on the lines, drawn to the light as moths to a flame, ignorant to the teeth closing in around them.
"Indomitable Human Spirit" is a red herring.
@@secutorprimus WELL SAID!
@secutorprimus There is no other light in most settings other than the one which can at least mean you get to live for long enough to get a small chance at life. Perhaps sometimes there is another light but most of the time there is the light and there is deception. And often the light is dying. And who is to say that other light is not simply a farther anglerfish, if it is the case that the closer one is?
@@hudsonflores5478 Humanity, in this setting, is doomed because they are terrified to search for other lights. Despite the fact that this light scorches their flesh, they cling to the dying flame as it sinks into the murky depths, entirely unwilling to abandon it to search for sunlight.
Grimdark exist so Games Workshop can sell plastic figurines 😅
That's the REAL grimdark.
@@tyinyk you mean corporate greed or Warhammer?
@@rotmistrzjanm8776both 😂
@@rotmistrzjanm8776 I did mean corporate greed, yeah.
@@tyinyk Cartoon Grimdark. Too shiny and bright.
0:45 i'm kind of a history nerd and i'll always remember vividly that time I saw a picture taken of Verdun right after the end of WWI, the picture was of course in black and white so it didn't help the feeling but. Desvastation, as far as the eye can see. Common and generic hills of the France landscape, completelly deformed by shell impact, the earth completelly turned over and a disfigurded landscape everywhere, probably still corpses under the soil and shells that didn't detonate on impact (we find some even to this day). And I remember thinking "If there is a Hell then I think this is it."
But then you realise it isn't hell, it is something worse, because innocents are not sent to hell.
That's the true horror of our reality. No matter who you are, and how good you are, even if you have the best intentions, you can, and will probably, get fucked.
That's pretty grim.
it's worse than "we find some even to this day." Look up a map of Zone Rouge, it covers a huge portion of France.
Grimdark makes the smallest light brighter than the sun.
Like a great glowing lighthouse amongst the seas of darkness
I like grimdark because it reminds me that things could always be worse
Hey, I like that. 👍
in a way that is optimism: no matter how horrid things may appear, life always finds a way. take what that means as you will.
Worse is yet to come.
A counter guardian fitting comment ngl
OK, you got me at the blind snipers lol, I love that
That's an extremely cool concept that I'm surprised isn't more popular.
Next: pregnant nun
It's the most badass thing i've ever saw in a grimdark setting
Next: The Voiceless Choir
In Trench Crussade you either pldedge yoruself to:
- The Lord God who might not love you
- The Dark Lord who might betray you
- The Invaders from beyond who's transcendence might not be as fun
And well, I am glad to see a hard hitting (vibe and art wise) competitor to 40K that is in the grimdark setting that is interesting and takes similar inspirations as it, but does not look like a rip-off.
And the main tenure off Grimdark is, I think, best represented as quote form Annihilation by Jeff Vandermeer: "Noone commits suicide, but we all self destruct". None wants to die, in even the last flash you will fight to stay alive, but the situation you are in will grind your body down.
The more "hopefull" qupte for Grimdark would be "As long as we're alive we will continue fighting"
To me Grimdark is ultimate exaltation of human agency. If there is no hope, or even no hope for hope, just living is a choice. In such situation if someone tries to rise they become hero, even if their fate is equaly grim. Those strong enough keep fighting and if they are skilled enough they could restore a little bit of hope if not for the world, then for some small part of it.
This is a really good way of putting it.
I'm surprised give me a Grimmdark video and didn't mention 40K once
I appreciate that he eschewed the obvious stuff everyone knows, and gave me obscure stuff I otherwise would've never heard of.
Agreed
It probably would have been an too obvious choice. Plus, 40k has been getting less grimdark during the last handful of editions.
This reminds me of a guy that basically became the only one with a gun in a cod Lobby.
"the time I became a space monster"
Grimdark is the rendered fat of the universal human feeling of despair. So many people have to keep day by day without the idea of hope to pull them along. Grimdark is a strata of those people's lives.
Yeah in the past and even today where are people whose lives would be classified as Grimdark
I just got into a novel that made me start thinking about how anyone would be able to keep going in a world where everyone is suffering in some way with no real hopes for a better future and now I see this.
It doesn't feel so much like suffering porn anymore.
"Because then, who would carry the fire?"
@notaheretic6675 that was my first thought after reading the comment.
I'm curious about what the novel is now.
@@matthiasthulman4058 I'm not sure if it's a good one, I just couldn't drop it because it was somewhat interesting watching the main character's dilemma over his twisted sense of justice and morals while he's obsessed with revenge... but if you want to bite:
Zilbagias the demon prince.
It's the typical rpg fantasy setting, a hero died and was reincarnated as the child of the demon that killed him. Only read 2 volumes but it's filled with mildly disturbing content (like all the various ways of torturing a pseudo-immortal being that heals from any damage for years to the point she would rather live as a dog than relive the memories by regaining her sense of self... They made paper from her skin, limitless supply), all the races at war have no hope, they're just fighting to survive and it's not something that can be fixed or will get better.
@matthiasthulman4058 it's the book called "The Road." it's a companion piece for no country for old men.
Grimdark to me is the fact that the end is coming and there is nothing you can do to stop it, but endlessly struggle against it. You can slow it down, but never truly stop.
That almost pointless defiant struggle is what so appealing about it. It mirrors the human struggle in life that many nihilist say as is pointless. Unlike other stories that give a sorta price for the struggle, grimdark give no such illusion, you live, you suffer, you endure, then you die, that it.
But the highlight are those that find the strength to keep fighting even if all hope is lost, even if there is no price at the end. To have the audacity to push even just a little the unstoppable encroaching darkness and tell it "not today".
That's grimdark to me, the end is coming but you can make it a glorious end.
The universe is literally doomed. Heat death, maybe the big rip, possibly even proton decay. Doomed. Everything we do is ultimately meaningless.
Good on you for not saying Dark Souls or Warhammer out of the blue. These less known ones are cool.
For me, grimdark should contrast with humor. It’s already hard enough, but a laugh doesn’t kill anybody unless only the ork with a bonk hammer will.
First law be like:
1:30 some of the easter egg songs hint that the Zombies, or rather the original person are completly aware but unable to control their bodies
Imagine being isekaid into a grimdark world where you are the only hope. 99% of everything is in a state of living decay as an unspeakable abomination has swept the world. Only 3 "havens" exist with all 3 merely waiting to fall.
You can stop the cursed, but you are the herald of the forbidden God. Thus, even those you could save actively seek your death.
If you could save a grimdark world, would it even be worth it?
Yeah. If I was plopped into a Grimdark verse with Superman-esque powers, I would 100% try my damn hardest. Because while I may fail in saving it in the end, I'd have pushed the dark clouds far enough that more seekers of light could continue hoping and fighting and living for a better future. I'd do my best to fight for hope, justice, and a better future.
@@mikedanielespeja6128Then something similar happens to Warhammer 40k were the Emperor is a figure like that, but the Empire and humanity is still suffering.
Yeah we don’t need another generic high fantasy setting.
That almost sounds like the Bible 😂😂😂😂
@@EllaM-o2lThe emperor was straight-up a dumbass, half of the human population would be able to perform better than him if they got his powers
I'm glad you covered some more obscure parts of the grimdark genre I had never heard of Vernis and it seems pretty dark.
As Brian Herbert (son of Dune's Frank Herbert) and Kevin J Anderson 'finished' the Dune saga...there was a little side story about an agent on IX trying to take part in a rebellion. As much as I dug the stories about the Butlerian Jihad, early Idaho and Halleck...the story of that lone agent under tremendous pressure has always stayed with me. What you capture in your excellent essay reminds me totally of him and the knowledge despite his bare escapes...the doom that awaited him. Thanks.
Nature is Grimdark. We are just fortunate enough to be so detached from it that we forget.
Parasitoid wasps are monstrous, and I heard they contributed to Darwin's conclusion that an all loving God does not exist. They dig a burrow, find a caterpillar, paralyze it then pull it into the burrow, lay their eggs on it, then seal it shut. Really screwed up stuff.
No it isn't
@@devingunnels3251 go try and live in it using only what you can source from the land. Ill wait.
@@riddell26 that doesn't make it grim dark you edgy dork. Life is tough but it isn't uniformly awful.
No we aren't. We just pretend to be detached.
Very interesting points, and good call showing these settings.
Grimdark is a hard "genre" to nail because it's not exactly a genre, I think. People usually use it for other genres like dark fantasy, survival horror or sword and sorcery settings. It was deliberately used by publishers as a catch-term for sword and sorcery, feeling the term outdated, but no one can define what it is as a result. It was co-opted from Warhammer, with no regard for what makes Warhammer "grimdark." And now it's used for anything that's just slightly dark. Much like how cosmic horror is now frequently overused.
And I think you caught onto what makes Trench Crusade in particular "grimdark" with its bleak and terrifying setting.
I like referring to the "grimdark spectrum" because it isn't really a thing. Just some stuff is on that spectrum. Not all of it wears its grimdark on its sleeve. Stuff like Arcane, Dune 2, Dunkirk.
@@j.f.fisher5318 Discussing it as a spectrum can be useful, but only insofar as you can discuss any other genre as a spectrum.
But none of those titles are even remotely grimdark.
You best start believin' in grimdark worlds... You're livin' in one
I love this channel it always introduces me to new things or offers a new perspective. I personally like Grimdark when it's done well. I'm a very pessimistic person so I find comfort in the dark and hopeless worlds I often view this world as being. But something that's consistent in these stories mentioned here is hope. I'm unsure if Fear and Hunger is Grimdark, but there are moments of hope and peace, despite the inevitable suffering. It makes me feel a little less silly for enjoying the small things. A good cup of coffee, waking up cozy. Even if you have no faith in the world and humanity, enjoy the little joys you have, no matter how silly they are. It's your life, love it when you can.
grimdark exists so people can experience their darker fantasies from the comfort of their own homes.
What fantasies ?
99% of Grim dark is literally just realistic fantasy. It's not darker fantasy. People use grim dark far too liberally, to pretend like a song of ice and fire and the 40k universes are in the same category is ridiculous. There is nothing grim or dark about 99% of grim dark settings. It's just more realistic and grounded
Love the Arknights music in the background
Grimdark only works if there is someone who is ultimately trying to do some good in the world, and is beaten down each and every time, until one day...he succeeds.
The brightest light is the sun rise after great darkness.
If you have a hero with a happy ending, it isn't grimdark,
That's the opposite of grimdark. It might be on the spectrum to a degree, but it isn't grimdark. Dunkirk, Dune 2, or Arcane are far more grimdark than that.
@@theeviloverlord7320 I said he succeeds. I never said he gets to live to see that success, nor did I say he is remembered favorably.
@@j.f.fisher5318 arcane isn't even grimdark, it has heros, hope, and a lot of people doing ok in life/changing the world for the better
it is dark sure, but not grimdark
3:20 Oh Gawd, ofc its Trench Crusade
As someone from the subtropics, whose seen frost a literal nonmetaphorical handful of times, winter is ''thank the stars it's now less than 100 degrees!''.
i absolutely love vermis!! plastiboo is one of my all time favorite artists and is so good at that eerie, helpless vibe
In some, what I love is how, despite the darkness, there exists motes of light, however fleeting
Honestly I'm impressed that you were able to make a great video about Grimdark without mentioning the father of the word "Grimdark" Warhammer 40,000
I am genuinely shocked you made a video on the topic of Grimdark without even coming close to talk a little bit about Warhammer or Hollow Knight. So, to a large extent, that breaks my heart.
The whole point of Grimdark is contrast it makes those moments of victory or humanity so much more poignant. As the great Morpheus in Neil Gaiman's Sandman says:
Hope
I wrote and published a grimdark indie novel - it was pretty messed up, but it definately had that core of hope in it.
Great video!
I absolutely love that you used the "Resting Grounds" Song from the Hollow Knight soundtrack, very fitting.
Great video, thank you for not going for the more obvious well-known examples of the genre but using the chance to promote some more unknown ones instead.
I thought Warhammer was messed up (from my limited knowledge), but good lord. This is just nightmare fuel. At least the Space Marines have the bravado of brotherhood that makes pretty much everyone go, hell yeah!
Ever heard about servitors?(hl2 stalker for 40k) or what happens to those captured by the dark eldar?(bdsm living furniture)
This video, specially the end note, motivated me to continue on a project I've had on hiatus for a long time, thanks for that!
Grimdark speaks to my resolve to keep going. If men live in a world worse than mine, and choose to keep living, refusing to give up... then they're stronger than I could ever be, and they're leaders I can look to for an example. By looking to these characters, I find a lot of my fears and anxieties about our modern world become unfounded. Their lives suck, but they still choose acts of heroism and ambition, becoming the best depictions of being human.
The worst thing I'll ever have to compare to their plight is finding a new job, or paying my bills. Truly the greatest horrors of my comfortable life.
I think the only grimdark that truly works is the sort where people are at their best and the world is at its worst. Like a soldier giving a small child a flower on a battlefield, or being locked in an armed standoff with another survivor and both of you choosing to drop your weapons; that sort of thing. The idea that, no matter how bad it gets, you can still make choices, and you can still make the most of a terrible situation.
Earth is a grimdark world you can’t prove me wrong
That's amazing concept art. Thanks for sharing.
I was fully expecting The Forever Winter, but I was pleasantly surprised by Vermis. Great video, dude! Here, have my humble suberooni.
I was very interested in Tench Crusade because it has an awesome aesthetic and world, I quite enjoy playing Warhammer 40K with friends on the weekends so it would've been a cool alternative to play every now and then. Flash forward like a year later, and color me surprised when I found out, can't remember if it was one of the creators or a community manager, but that person blatantly said that 40K players are not welcome in their community and can go eff themselves, since no one was reprimanded for such a post, I can assume that statement is also shared by the company and I refuse to support people who dislike me, to quote Leon S. Kennedy from the original Resident Evil 4 " No thanks, bro".
Grimdark for the sake of being grimdark something I will always look down on. If there is some intent to explore holding fast in a world that gives you little reason to, I will respect it. The only reason to make the former is to reflect a terrible quality in one's own soul.
13:43 Hopelessness? Honestly this world gives me dark souls 3 vibes. Like what other world would fit that description
Most of them.
I feel like theres a difference between things like berserk and 40k. Berserk feels like there is light at the end of the tunnel. It feels like maybe just dark fantasy? But i feel like with 40k and what i fear with trench crusade as someone who is only interested in lore is the lack of progression. In a need to keep things always hopeless there are rarely any major victories. And when there are i feel like they are called less grim dark. I could be wrong though
I spent my evening scrolling through video essays on Forever Winter and Trench Crusade, so I applaud the algorithm for actually putting your vid in front of me successfully
FOR DORN! FOR THE EMPEROR! WE RAGE AGAINST THE DARKNESS FOR THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE
Wish you good luck with Signalis. Be waiting some video about this gem.
5:10 "Ministery of Dis (nuts lmao)"
GOT ME xD
This one video just covered everything I've been obsessed with over the past month lol
I feel like the biggest problem with Grimdark, which is why it’s normally relegated to game backgrounds, is that it can only really exist for a setting, not for a plot. True grimdark is antithetical to storytelling, hence why any Warhammer narratives are always more positive than the background material. Any stories fall into a catch-22; either the grim darkness holds and the story reaches a disappointing, unfulfilling end, or the story is small enough against the backdrop that it can feature achievement and hope, in which case it loses the soul crushing weight of the setting.
I love Warhammer 40k and in my opinion, the reason why the grim dark there is so good is because there's still hope no matter the horrors they encounter.
It's just the Dark Fantasy of Science Fiction. It's really that simple.
This video is very well made!!
I was also always interested in these types of worlds
16:06 - I can already hear a symphony of pitches from a bunch of Aztek death whistles being used for this forest of flutewoods. 😍 I don't know, it sounds haunting but also beautiful in my head.
grimdark exists to see how many things you can think of that make you say “wouldnt that be fucked up”
"winter is a 3 month period" lol I WISH
3 months would be fine with me
t. german
Honestly, personally I think Vermis is quite hopeful. As a world, I would say it isn't that far from our own. Lots of shit has happened in the past, being at some places and times can lead to certain and painful death or worse and there's no telling of the future. But just as there is potential for a bad life, there is potential for a good one. In real life, we may not be the result of a great fall of civilization, but the future is yet uncertain. The only true constant is change. Change by it's own metric. That can always go either way. In grim dark, like in utopia, like anywhere else.
Any emotions, positive or negative, are always made by relativity. No matter the place, or the world, there is always a reason to be happy. Or to be unhappy, for that matter. In a world without flowers, we can find joy in the grass. In a world with no grass, we can find joy in the geometric form of some rubble. In a world with flowers, we can find anger in the abscence of gardens. In a world with gardens, we can be angry at the abscence of... geometrically shaped rubble? Some will be. The point at which one goes in what direction and to what point, is up to one self.
Great video!
Thanks for making videos, I love them ❤🥰
This video is more peak Haedal, nothing more to say than that.
Grimdark is only as good as the hope that keeps the people going forward
"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."
Don't forget the Tredecillions of Eldar that died during the Fall
But it’s also really fun to write in grimdark, because if you want a story where the light overcoming the dark is truly a spectacular and wondrous thing to behold, and not just some bland predictable given event, it can make the ultimate setting for it, as long as you are willing to throw away plot armor, up the stakes, throw down the kid gauntlets, and let the antagonists have a sizable amount of relevant victories
mic quality is 🔥🔥
Easy one, to be on a knifes edge, the fine line between a fickle ember of hope and utter despair. It is to see the triumph of humanity in that most darkest hour, it is glorious
This was a great video, great quality, great speaking, just great in general dude, bravo
The Resting Grounds track from Hollow Knight suits Vermis so well
Grimdark reminds me of our horrible potential but to keep going. This is why we need stories like this to remind us what we could become but also that we ourselves can still be good despite. The world sucks but the stories about the individuals continuing to fight or do good that make it despite what lifes given them makes it imp. It doesn't matter if the world will get better what matters is the fight
One of the most underappreciated pieces of media I’ve watched
It's still funny that ultrakill is grimdark.
Grimdarkness exist so that when you thought you will have a happy ending, you will get smacked to the face with realization that you are just a spec of dust in the grander scheme
If you like cod zombies, alt ww1 and grimdark you might like hunt showdown and especially the lore around it. The vibe is less "dead" and more "what remains after a huge storm" but the aesthetic is top tier
I got an add for that before the video.
To strip everything down and remind us what is important in this world and what is worth fighting for
Ah grimdark, my favorite genera. Where heroes stand against all odds just to spite a cold and unfeeling universe that will never know they existed. Thank you for making this video.
Thank you for making this video. I love Trench Crusade and am happy that word is getting around!
My greatest fear is that Earth's bio-sphere collapses, sadly, that seems to be the direction we're heading in.
Forever winter sounds like an alternated history of the Cold War.
And metal gear solid: snake eater sounds like a prono
You’ll love the Death Korps of Krieg then
Make a part 2. Please.
Don't you dare go hollow.
I remember watching video on vermis but forgot what it was called. Good luck slogging through results for "medieval grimdark"
I haven’t kept up at all with CoD Zombies. Where did the robots come from?!
Hello small youtuber that's surprisingly good at making video, that video was very cool and well made and I hope your channels grow :D
Huh. So Haedal discovered Trench Crusade around the same time I’m binging its lore videos… Neat!
Trench Crusade: you must suffer to gain power.
Me: "takes off shoe", "steps on lego", "becomes juggernaut".
Great video. I too love me grim dark worlds. The world I am working for my TTRPG is very grim dark. People are forced to live under massive pale trees for outside of their branches a miasma fills the land mutating any living creature into a variety or eldritch monsters.
A stable crop for those living under the tress is the Rotbulbs a large, bulbous plants that emit a foul odor as they grow, feeding off decaying flesh and skin of the dead or dying. The bulbs can be mashed and cooked into a paste that is a staple in many dishes.
I love these worlds, thanks for sharing.
Counter-question:
What is the point of nobelbright?
Answere to both:
Escapeism!!
Incredible video essay, remember me when you’re famous 🙏
"But what if winter never comes"
"Hear me, Hear me! New law in the city!"
Aside from this being a suspiciously timed recommendation by TH-cam this game/ world sound 'beautiful' ( sounds funked up but i can't put it in a better way) and the conseptart is insane like you said I wish my mind was this funked up!
Very well put together explaination really enjoyed the video!
The entire aesthetic of World War One is such a perfect story setting. And i wish it was more utilized