In a short story from the 3E or 4E era, there was a short story where some Space Marines chance across some Necron stuff. The moment they see it they immediately fall back and call for heavy reinforcements and an evacuation. Their automatic response to seeing Necrons was that they were woefully incapable of fighting this foe. Anyway in the novel Indomitus two dozen Primaris(tm) kill over a thousand Necrons in melee and only six of them are even hurt.
It’s interesting how Primaris get one-shotted in even the current cinematics by regular Necrons. Warhammer powerscaling is fickle and inconsistent at best.
i think we are settling down from the indomitus era bullshit marines since the entire squad of space marines (including a captain/luitenant) from the 9th edition trailer have been revealed to have been folded after the trailer ends .
@@joshuafarrington3649 Exactly my point. "Uh...yeah actually, as a retcon, they totally lost after you saw them effortlessly massacring their way through the Newcrons. You know, offscreen. But it totally happened!" That's a marketing move, not writing, and is entirely incompatible with what we were actually shown. GW's a very big believer in Tell, Don't Show.
And i instantly visualize the intro from Dark Crusadw, where seemingly a decent platoon of Blood Ravens is demolished within seconds by conveniently recently awaken necron tomb
Feels weird saying that 5th edition makes Necrons less grimdark because it 'humanizes' them when the lore ends up having the new-crons not be immune to the grimdark themselves, having their own suffering and potential bitter fate, the natural decay that comes from sleeping for millions of years, the horror of their biotransference being aknowledged that drives those who can still think to insanity, etc etc. Rather than being immune to it because they are just content in killing and murdering and just boiling down to being the second (or third) existential threat to the galaxy at large beside Tyranids (and chaos). Compared to the Imperium's whole "Sir Girlyman comes back to life with help of a 'not like the other girls' space elf gf, and with help of Mr. Robot Wannabe Crawler after TEN THOUSAND YEARS are able to deploy the Super Duper Marines that are better than the old Normie Marines with all this new designs and concepts for a faction that is supposed to be known for their refusual to create anything new and then the Super Duper Marines boltered all over the chaos and xenos", the robot skeletons being developed to be more than glorified killbots doesn't seem as anti-grimdark as you said.
Also very cool that the example you used for 'bad' retcons is female custodes, a minor retcon that doesn't impact anything about the emperor's super special bodyguards beyond "hey some of them can be female if you want". Nowhere near the whole faction rework that happened with the necrons or even the squats (now known as Leagues of Votann, aka corporate clones that can't escape the shadow of DRG due to a lack of any deeper lore, instead of rogue abhuman bikers with land trains and actual space dwarves). Really letting some bias through there of something more whiney, especally with the Gamza cameo.
Agreed. The only thing I didn't like about the new-crons was turning the c'tans into pokémons although I can see the reasoning why since GW wrote themselves into a corner when they wrote them as realspace's chaos gods and had to find a way to nerf them without taking away their cosmic horror theme and thought that have them shattered and sealed by the necrons was a good idea (whether you think the same or not is up to you personally I don't mind anymore)
@bruhmoment2600 I did. Its easy to say there could be female custodies when 40k doesn't have cannon any longer. The whole Horus heresy novels and siege of terra plus the codexes in before 10th all male custodies.....well if we stay consistent with "cannon". But because of the "retcon" it changes completely of the view of the custodies in large and it gives you the idea of, why even bother reading the HH and other books since Games Workshop will change things on a whim and its not the only thing they have changed.
Okay, but on the grimderp bit. Not every single moment every all the time has to be depressing or grim, etc. You need contrast and different moments, otherwise the trope is just cheesy and overdone. For example, genuine romance or a semi happy ending in one story, doesn't change the over all setting in other stories. The moments of good should be rare, but still a thing. Like when the one armed marine beats the destroyer in that animation
Wow, you’re kind of a tool. I’ve been playing since 4th Ed, and as flattered as I am by some European zoomer getting super into the stuff I loved, I’ve always been rubbed the wrong way by people like you in the hobby. Youre just an elitist.
I think the 5th ed lore writers realised they messed up with removing the "old school kill all organics necrons" by adding the "destroyer plague" which removes their nobles and rulers personas to going back to the 3rd ed necrons and some tomb worlds are controlled solely by Tomb World AI so that is also a throwback to 3rd Ed, and also that orange coloured dynasty that deletes organics. Also one thing i noticed about the Ctan retcon in 5th, that they had the C'Tan, beings of the pure physical universe with no warp reflection, that are intrinsic to our reality, have the ability to consume souls or warp energy from the necrontyrs discarded forms, that shouldn't be possible, I remember one entry in 3rd ed where a daemon talks to Abbadon iirc about the Ctan consuming the physical forms or biological matter/energy of the Necrontyr and discarding the souls, which flooded into the Warp and were consumed by warp predators on mass. Why they retconned it to have the C'tan consume souls like the Chaos Gods or Daemons could doesn't make sense either.
Probably to limit it like ‘oh, uh yeah… it is literally using our bullets as food, and will probably munch our world… that is what the bugs do we can’t have two factions doing rhe same thing!’ Honestly sun based/energy based beings sounds more interesting and then ‘oh fuck yeah we now have metal bodies we can leave the sun and not starve to death!’ Being the catalyst for the war in heaven sounds so simple and fantastic at the same time. ‘The sun is giving us cancer.’ Releases beings from the cancer sun. Old Ones: *panic*
@@silent_stalker3687 I found the Ctan eating sun/life energy/radiation far more interesting than eating warp energy/souls as we already had chaos doing that, If the necrons win, the Ctan in the new lore would starve to death because every living creature would loose its soul through the pylon network cutting off the warp for good, while in the old lore the ctan would have no limits to their feasting and not have to worry about warp predators and psykers.
I was there at the store picking up these books on release day, up in northern Ohio. I loved the simple 3rd ed necrons w the straightforward lore. And I liked the pariah lore. Back then there wasn't much on that topic. When the 5th edition book came out I remember GW was also revamping their WFB undead into Tomb Kings. Reading the huuuuge bloat in lore detail seemed silly at the time but also another symptom that GWs designers had come down with 'Egypt Fever'. We're 'The Mummy' films big then? Anyway the characters were so cool I forgave GW immediately and got on the hype train to space memphis.
Trazyn and Orikan fighting the Shards of the deceiver is 100 times more interesting than old lore. If you think the modern Silent King being a immortal lord racked by guilt and trying to be better is not better than quiet terminator yours just trying to be Different
@@1C3CR34M grimdark dystopian fascist h*llscapes need less humanization in order to sell the feeling. Turning around and saying "well yeah but the necrons kinda have human aspirations as well" Like.. Nah. They're not human. They never were. They are never going to be. A human, who got turned into a robot 50 million years ago, would have the aspiration to turn himself back into a flesh body if given the chance. Humans would want to do that. Because our natural flesh bodies dont have the immune system of a wet paper bag (necrons when they were flesh). Necrons, would not. Necrons, even in their conscious misery, fully understand that them existing AS NECRONS is part of the reason they can even CONTAIN the c'tan in the first place. Why they can even MAINTAIN their empire. Why they can fight against chaos and the imperium. Without their full mastery and control of necrodermis, they're nothing more than "green-day tau" with the immune systems of a 200 year old man.
I prefer the newer necrons as opposed to the old 3rd edition ones. They simply are more entertaining for me while being capable of that horrific grimdark beauty I love. The Twice Dead King showcases exactly why they work better: more interesting characters. The way Oltyx tries to fight off the flayer curse and the depressing showcase of what missing a soul looks like is what makes the modern necrons more enjoyable. It’s a lot like Skaven you have your horrific nightmare fuel science and evil experiments but also have a fucking hilarious character roster. The Infinite and the Divine would never exist under 3rd edition. Keep in mind I was introduced to 40K through the first Dawn of War games so I have a soft spot for my older necrons, but they would reached their narrative limit far too quickly. The old necrons would’ve had the same issues the Tyranids have now with a handful of named characters and almost nothing from their perspective. This is fine for the Tyranids since they are an extragalactic threat with no history in our galaxy, but the Necrons aren’t like that they have a long history with the Eldar and a lot of narrative potential for other factions that simply wouldn’t work if they were still basically robots. As for the reasons why they wish to go back to flesh, read necron stories and you’ll see being a soulless robot with the mind of an organic creature is torture. Oltyx claws at his metallic throat to breathe when he starts to panic. No modern necron can ever make art or music nor engage with art or music in any meaningful way. The only way to prevent the flayer virus is be obsessive towards goals you’ll never accomplish(hence why Trayzn is seemingly immune since he always one artifact away from finishing his museum). They are immortal sure but they lack the very things that make life worth living. The whole reason the silent king hates the nids is because they would doom the Necrons to forever wander dead planets until they inevitably malfunction. Plus they didn’t get rid of the old necrons they simply renamed them the Empire of the Severed and added destroyer cults to other dynasties. They also didn’t sanitize the modern necrons I don’t know where you got that from. Illuminor Szeras literally experiments on still living subject carefully pulling them apart and studying them to see he can master life and death to ascend to godhood. The pariah nexus is terrifying bringing Astartes to their knees before making planetfall. The previously mentioned depth added to the flayer virus is amazing. You’d have to try hard to ignore the terrors of the modern necrons. I understand preference but the modern necrons are far more interesting than a less interesting chaos gods using robot with little to no personality past DEATH HAS COME FOR YOU. Especially when compared to a faction of soulless people slowly going insane while wielding fragments of their old gods as batteries.
@@denishrg9843 Yeah, pretty much. He's not gonna actually respond to *any* of this. I've seen several comments criticizing him and of course, he gives a complete nothing burger of a response. Because why defend anything you say, right?
Id say both versions of the Necrons offer different types of grimdark. The newcrons have more internal grimdarkness. Their mental decay and potential for storytelling. I just think 40k made them a joke, as in many animations they get one shot or in books, where a handful of space marines manage to kill hundreds of warriors.
I think the appeal of Oldcrons can be summed up by how I was first introduced to them: I was 15, still new to 40k, on the final level of Winter Assault's IG campaign. After several long, grueling minutes of holding the line against the enemies of Man, I finally get the last generator up, thinking I'd won. But then the cutscene started. The Commissar reveals the Titan crew is getting anomalous readings, and then it happens: A massive, dark pyramid descends and deploys armies of skeletal robots called "Necrons". Cool intro, but what really struck me was how they were dead silent as they trudged along. No insane babble like the Chaos Marines. No war cries like the Orks. Not even a leader boasting about how he's going to crush you. Nothing. I *knew* I was in for a fight when even all the Commissar could say was "Emperor be with us" under his breath. And I was, because the Obelisks tore through my "invincible" defenses like paper with my only real hope being the Titan's weapons, which took what felt like forever to recharge. Managed to beat them by the skin of my teeth, just 2 or 3 units remaining. Easily one of the most unforgettable moments of any game I've played and in 40k canon.
@@walternelson2687 We already have that with the Tyranids. Hence why no one gave a shit about the Necrons until they overhauled the faction and fleshed it out more.
They were, now they are basically humans with some more advanced tech. They could have just removed the cringy wE wAnT tO bE MoRtAl AgAiN part and it would have been okay-ish
I think there is this thing called "The Narrative" which would be a lot shorter and less entertaining if the most powerful faction in the setting was a united empire that decided to conquer the galaxy and eradicate all life with little capable of opposing. You have some points in that GW seems to be toning down the Grimdark, but you can sell more stuff if that stuff is marketable. Also I think they really wanted Space Tomb Kings.
You just contradicted yourself mixing with entertainment and grimdark which they don't mix together if you don't understand what grimdark is meant to portray.
@@TheNellop If the Necrons were united the setting wouldn't exist, I don't disagree with you in that there have been many changes that aren't really "Grimdark". but this is also a franchise, their decisions are typically profit based (except that femstodes nonsense) the things they do is to drive sales for inordinately priced plastic miniatures. I do understand what grimdark is and we agree things are going kind of baby mode. But I don't entirely think every choice they've made, like "humanizing" Necrons, was a bad decision. Though your point on them being cooler when they were more mysterious and alien is agreeable.
@TheNellop Entertainment doesn't mean "It makes you feel good and happy", it means "Something that amuses, pleases, or diverts". If you didn't find old Necrons entertaining you literally wouldn't have made a clearly passionate video about them. I personally would have never picked that original Necrons codex for my first army when I got into 4th edition if I didn't find the concept of playing an army of emotionless skeletal robots entertaining. Comments like this is why you are going to never getting arguments "In Good Faith" because instead of responding to anything the person said in terms of their argument about the Narrative, you make this comment that is literally nonsensical. People do not engage with things unless it entertains them in some way. Could be joy, could be intrigue, could be thrill. Your comment, as is, implies you don't find/think Grimdark is entertaining which makes me wonder why you would care that 40K got less Grimdark?
"the terminator franchise wouldve been better if the terminator just went round killing things like the rest of his kind at the start of the movie and never changed"
@@zeek1707 The problem is not that necrons have personalities (For example,Ctan,lords and pariahs already had individuality), but that from a terrible threat to all living things, they turned into just another xenos tyrants (Which describes 99% of xenos in 40K), as well as in the destruction of the old lore (Not one of the old plot not It has developed in the Newcron laura, not to mention the destruction of many interesting concepts, such as pariahs) and a radical change in tone and style, so the problem is not in the changes themselves, but in how the faction was changed,, as well as the fact that these explanations were not adequately explained (I will give as an example the films you mentioned about the terminator, then why the terminator in the 2nd film differs from the terminator from the 1st was adequately explained, there are no rare necrons, the whole explanation is that it has always been so and oldcrons never existed (At most it is separate the degraded worlds of the tomb and the escaped fragments of the Ktan were taken, which completely devalued the entire old ent (Which subsequent terminator films did not do)).
Old cron lore of only the most willful survived was the most interesting thing. Now it's just the same old kings as before ruling the same old serfs but they are lobotomized. The will to persevere in their war is what drives them, they take command because no others will, and they are fighting the gnaw of time on their psyche. A nice take, kinda similar to a chaos warband or hivefleet but drama when multiple willful crons exist. 8th edition added a lot of new lore that is a good read but it's very different to the original design of an army of skelly t800s. Look forward to your next vid.
I wish that Necrons kept both factions. Like SM/CSM, Eldar/DE. You could have C'tan enslaved necrons vs Dynastic free necrons. It would make sense that these 2 necron factions would keep each other in check. The new Trazyn memes are fine, but star Cthulhu becoming s pokemon is just silly.
"Hey, unfathomable immortal Eldridge horror from beyond, put this metal beetle thing on the back of your neck, y'know.. it'll be fun...", "Whut? Yuh okay... *click* Nurrrr you pranked me, bruh."
Oldschool warhammer elitists will look at Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Cluseau or a faction leaders name being a funny way of pronouncing margaret thatcher and tell you with a strait face about how everything used to be so serious back in the day and how everything was ruined once they stopped doing grimdark. I have jet to read a full length warhammer 40k novel without comedic undertones. It startet out as a parody and if anything they tried to do more serious writing since then. The new lore does not lack darkness compared to the old one, there is still plenty of that. It lacks nostalgia when it comes to you specificly
@Ayahuasca98 that's almost 20 years ago now (calling it oldschool is not a stretch imo) and applicable for every older generation getting into the hobby. It's always the retcon retconning their prefered retcon that is the bad one (but you see their retcon was nessesary because the lore was stupid before their time) It's like those old writings from ancient romans complaining about how "todays youth is worthless, lazy and way to pampert to do real work", a never changing constat in the nature of humanity, only this time it's about the serious matter of paintable plastik toys and their deep lore
5:33 No, that doesn't make more sense. 3rd Edition Necron Codex: "In the shade of Terra, beneath the mountains of mist, there is a new type of death. A sacrifice of men, but the precious souls are not consumed, they are cast adrift. Many are the daemons that wait like carrion to feast on the leavings from this rich table." C'tan canonically can't eat souls. Changing from that is a retcon that just makes them another kind of daemon.
I absolutly prefer the new necron lore. But the C'tan can eat souls, you can see in the "infinite and the divine"(a astronomacly good book, alone for that the newcrons are better) that a bunch of deciever shards ate aeldari souls. And in the twice dead king they are clearly eating the souls of necronthyr in a flashback. But they are still beings of the materium and so no daemons. Which makes them and their powers immune to anti warp powers like the sisters of silence.
Bringing up the Adeptus Mechanicus, an important distinction between them and the Necrons is that Mechanicus do not have their souls removed/eaten in the process of being augmented. They are still "Alive". Newcrons are spiritually dead, but consciously alive. The desire for organic bodies is clearly a doomed hope of having souls again to have all the things that come with BEING alive that Mechanicus would still have in varying cases/degrees Bodily Sensations, the abilty to procreate and experience intimacy, they sight of a living person in the mirror, the ability to create; all things Necrons have lost, and the ones that still have any mind left even have nothing to do but pass time. The Necrons didn't just lose their souls. They lost the reasons they even wanted to escape death in the first place. There isn't a Necrontyr society anymore. There isn't a Necrontyr culture anymore. There will never be a new Necrontyr. They are dead. Just instead of their skeletons being mindless, some get to suffer the consequences of the Silent King's foolishness until they find something that can either kill them or save them. And in a setting like Warhammer, even in modern less Grimdark Warhammer, nobody is going to save them.
5th Ed ruleset was imo fun to play because it struck a good balance between being a simple rule-set with a pinch of complexity but became the poster boy of power creep...oh look a new OP flavor of space marines GW wants to sell came out! 🤑 The 5th ed necron codex leaned fully into the power creep aspect of 40k: "here's the latest OP models with freshly made up lore for you to buy!"
Man I will admit I kinda respectfully disagree but from looking at your replies and how you respond even to people giving their own respectful disagreements and own opinions. I'm kinda wondering if you're actually doing things in good faith.
They are not here for a conversation, they are here to give me that lecture attitude and straw man me to death. Ill give some examples Grim dark as I have repeatedly said before its so messy and there is no such thing as hope. But the counter argument is trying to add a little of hope in there but by definition that is not the case. In this video I talk about specifically using a contrast principle of 3rd and 5th edition codexes. The counter argument is always talking about new books or giving non argument fallacy that are not related to this topic. K why not the old books? I have only found someone vaguely mentioning old books pre 5th edition but it never specified of which ones which in the comments here. I'm here showing objectively when it comes to grimdark 3rd edition is superior by definition but all I get is opinions of what they like, its better that its not grim dark (even though gw shows it otherwise), ect. ect. Its never objective and its mostly straw man arguments.
Back in the day the 3rd edition codex was just something else. Written purely from imperial perspective with the little scrap of information they had about this inknown foe rising from tombs, it set the tone of an ominous, horrific enemy completely devoid of every emotion, making them a complete antithesis to chaos which is raw emotion. Soulless, heartless, often even mindless machines, which clearly was inspired by Terminator and brought forth this very same almost primal fear. And then they turned into whatever this whole dynasty crap is, completely removing any mystery or aura they had. I miss 3rd edition Necrons.
@@clydemarshall8095 For me personally I got enough tragedy out of the imperium as a whole. The whole thing feels like one giant cooking pot of tragedy. What I miss from the necrons is that feeling of slight unease or terror I got from them. I never got legit scared, but there was something thrilling about the fact that they could not be reasoned with. You either fled from them, baited them into fighting someone else, like the eldar would do or you fought them. With the 5th edition necrons and the silent king involved suddenly diplomacy is an option. It would be like John Connor in the future going to Skynet's HQ and sitting down to have a talk with it. It would remove some (Certainly not all) the tension if the evil force can be reasoned with.
Virgin 3rd Ed Necrons: "Oh, we're a species of little bitches who were enslaved by our gods! Woe is me!" Gigachad 5th Ed Necrons: "Though our souls were taken from us, we shattered and enslaved our gods. We were there when the stars were young and after the last of them dies, we will remain. For we are immortal." That said, I view the 3rd Ed as laying out the groundwork for what will later become the 5th Ed. They never really had that level of mystery to them from what you've shared but they were pretty cool. 5th just gave them some spice and variety and made them infinitely scarier than before. The fact they not only overthrew their gods but enslaved them already puts them leagues ahead of their 3rd Ed counterpart in terms of "Oh shit!" factor. Now if only GW could realize just how scary the current Necrons really are.
...Or- 3rd Ed: Creeping menace that inspire an almost existential dread & are widely regarded as the eventual doom of the galaxy; cold & inevitable as death itself... Vs- 5th Ed: Knock-off tomb kings _IN SPEESS_ who can't get their sh*t together enough to actually conquer anything because they're too busy squabbling amongst themselves... Uh, yeah... I think I know which iteration I prefer!
So I think the problem here personally is the nature of Warhammer being a perpetual franchise it really takes the edge off factions like the oldcron and the tyranid since it heavily waters down there grimdark potential because they can't be the unstoppable monsters they would be in any other setting because they have to keep selling you overpriced plastic men and books. It's why I prefer when Warhammer doesn't take it self seriously and is just cool guy punches spikey cool guy while the heavy metal is playing in the background.
There is literally 10000 years from the Heresy to present the explore and sell us new figures with the mediocrity of the replacements for the original creators that they drove off
The Titans were the original "gods" in mythology, they were overthrown by the Olympians who were of lesser height and strength. Its possible to overcome a greater foe if you change the nature of the battle. I think there should have been a better narrative explanation for the change.
@@TheNellophow is that a fallacy? Without the lore change, books that are universally praised such as Infinite & Divine, and Twice Dead King wouldn’t have come to fruition.
@@JonathanBueno-t4o Those books are funny from time to time I'll give credit to that. The fallacy is, just because the books are praised or they are good it doesn't make it Grim dark. My question will be is, other than those books, is there any other older books or short stories that are good and is grim dark? Necron specific.
IIRC, 5th Edition is also what introduced the whole "60 million year" bullshit to the timeline, whereas 3rd Edition just had the War in Heaven be "eons ago", keeping the exact age of the event mysterious and enigmatic, since it predates Humanity. So I'd go so far as to say that the 5th Edition Necron Codex was not only a black mark on the Necrons, but on 40k as a whole.
I love my Necrons both old and new. I see it that the mass of terminators with no soul marching quietly towards you is how everyone else sees them and the more humanized bickering side is how they see themselves. Like how the Orcs see themselves as a bunch of lads that like a good crumping but the rest of the galaxy sees them as horrifying monsters that eat human flesh. Lets agree that the Tyranids need to remain as an unknowable outside force.
They made necrons not scary anymore, they certainly have more units now but they are kinda more like cartoons with godlike powers rather than mysterious skeletons...
Well, that’s because if they were scary, all consuming force, they would literally be doing the same job as the Tyranids and they would be easily overshadow by the bugs in every way, which is why the lore change happened
You could argue then we already have the one dimensional kill everything faction old necrons are essentially just metal tyranids atleast with the current ones they fill a niche whether you are a fan or not
Cool video. I don't agree with some points, others I did...thank you for showing the old lore of the Necron's before the retcon... can't seem to find it anywhere online.
Yeah its hard to find some digital copies as GW being GW and not allowing people passing books around to people. It will require some deep looking if you are doing it solo like how I did. Unless you're lucky to have some people to share info around. Or you are rich enough to by the physical people.
I see where you're coming from, but the new lore is much much better, Necrons actually have characters and personalities which the old lore simply didn't really have and "Kill all life" is such a boring motivation for it to be your entire faction's deal. Now we have characters like Trayzn who is an absolutely phenomenal character that simply cannot exist in the old lore. And the politics between the various necron lords like Imotekh and Szarekh is always super interesting to read about. And their desire to return to flesh gives them such a great dynamic the AdMech whenever they cross paths because the AdMech desire to get to where the necrons are and the necrons are always like, "It's not as good as it seems", which is such an interesting dynamic
I can understand your point of view, but I will object to you as a fan of oldcrnows, more complex motivation does not always make something more interesting, oldcrons had simple motivation, but at the same time had well-developed lore and background, which combined with their simple motivation worked, the oldest and most strongly influenced race in the galaxy is no more than slaves of evil ancient gods who want to bring death to all living things, while the presence of a personality in necrons is not inappropriate, pariahs and lords already possessed it (Even there were intrigues of lords and Ktan among themselves, this was mentioned in the codes), but to develop characters it was possible without turning the faction into something that had nothing to do with the original concept, as well as without throwing all the old lore into the trash (And definitely without turning Ktan into Pokemon).
You’re actually wrong The codex specifically mentions the deceiver adding the pariah gene into the human gene pool And then has an entire short story about a blank being enticed by visions into going to a tomb world (I am an oldcron supporter.)
@@TheNellop As a fan of oldcrons since the days when they were relevant, I confirm that the necron pariahs were made of people, we have a good example:Thomas Makambi from DOW DC, who was originally a human archaeologist serving the Tau Empire(It was implied that the pariahs were the beginning of a project to transform a certain part of the human population into a new kind of cyborg servants who perform the function of bodyguards and overseers of slaves (This is well shown in many old art, where pariahs were often depicted performing their 2nd function)).
@@funnydreadking9237 Thanks for the info my man, the old novels might give a better perspective but I mainly focused the bed rock of lore which are the 3rd and 5th necron codexes. Ill put a pin in my to do list when I can get the chance to read it. I wasn't arguing that it wasn't made out of humans. It was specific that the deceiver was responsible adding the pariah gene, which its plausible but I cannot see it in the 3rd ed. And a blank being enticed by visions into going to a tomb world? that could've been mixed with the shadow games in 3rd ed Necron codex where the eldar had visions for the assassin blanks imperium base.
@@TheNellopThe pariah you mentioned is the first pariah, one of the named characters of the old necrons, one of the first pariahs turned into a necron pariah, a separate event was dedicated to him by the company (Unfortunately, despite mentions in the lore, outside the company, he never received a reissue of his miniature and the rules in the codex (I will also add that it was the norm for the Oldcrons to subjugate someone through the vedas, there were whole cults serving the necrons (They generally had a pretty good agetural network throughout the galaxy, for example, this is well shown in xenology)) and yes,shadow game is one of the fragments of the codex of the 3rd edition, which talks about the artificial origin of the pariah gene, the Eldar describe the pariah as a crop planted in the field of the human race, which will soon begin to be harvested.
The Necrons change isngood because it's a WARGAME where people make a real investment of creativity, time, and especially money into their armies. Frankly, the Necrons being a one-trick pony with no personality beyond being spooky evil robots that kill stuff may work more in a purely narrative sense, but having characters and dynasties is what makes them feel like a real faction in the creative hobby that is miniature painting.
Fully agree, the Necron was a sleeping dragon, a danger the imperium wasn't capable of handling if they awoken, like the Borg in Star Trek. Cold and emotionless, their awakening would be a march to galactic domination. Now they are underpowered, infighting factions, not mysterious. This is the fate of modern GW, they need to constantly release some new bigger badder threat. They even made the minifigs less cool. I loved the 3rd edition Necrons that came with clear green tubes you put into the gauss rifles, the transparent green was a nice touch. They don't even got that now.
I am a person who got acquainted with the necrons during the 4th edition, the oldcrnos were my main faction and in many ways I agree with the author of the video.The Oldcrons were a truly dark and terrible faction, doomed forever to be slaves of terrible and alien hungry gods because of their hatred and stupidity, wishing to turn people into the same monsters (The Pariahs were only the beginning of humanity's transformation into a new race of slaves to the Ctan),They radiated the atmosphere of how they greatly influenced the galaxy (Influence on the evolution of other species, a huge role in the mythology of many races and factions (Many minor races of xenos were developed precisely thanks to the old lore of necrons, for example, it was thanks to the oldcrons that we learned a lot about the Hruds)).At the same time, and in the context of more modern events, they were quite significant (In the old lore, the necrons were one of the reasons for the appearance of the black legion (It was the Deceiver who helped Abbadon find his sword), as well as it was the necrons who organized the Gothic war), which again worked on the image of a powerful ancient threat, while they were just perfectly presented, ancient machines, every victory over which is a feast and which even such fanatics as the word bearers are afraid of, it's cool.Also, the old lore was just rich in various interesting concepts (the Parties mentioned earlier, arguments about the differences and similarities of order and chaos, and many other things).The Oldcrons also did a great job of portraying aliens, the necrons and k'tan were intelligent and had a personality, but this personality was completely alien and evil.The new ent unfortunately abandoned most of the things that made the oldcrons unique (And also just made a number of very strange and unnecessary changes (I still don't understand why it was necessary to change the wraith, necron bandits are much cooler than just robots)),At the same time, having too humanized the faction, which is why they scare much less, they look mostly like just petty tyrants (Which is much less original, since this is a description of most of the inhabitants of the 40k galaxies),Also, the presentation has become much weaker (For example, in the old lore, even the necrons of war were a serious threat, while now they are mostly B1 from SW),At the same time, the changes were very poorly explained, and there was no place left for the old dragons in the new lore (Old storylines are not being developed, and it is still impossible to play with the dynasty serving Ktan (Copying the Tomb Kings of GW and did not add followers of Nagash in space, one of the most interesting sub-factions of WH FB)),At the same time, I can't help but notice that there were positive moments, I understand why necrons have fans, there were several interesting characters and cool units (I really like the concept of cryptek),but in my opinion, the changes were too radical and unnecessary, most of the new units and concepts, with some refinement, could be implemented in the context of the old lore of necrons (Oldcrons were already aristocrats capable of intrigue (This was mentioned in the code of the 4th edition, as well as in xenology (I strongly advise you to read it to the author of the video, as well as to all who read this comment, a great background book)),there were already necron characters (The First Pariah, the Herald of Storms), who already had personality and were characters, if they wanted to develop the personality of the Necrons, they could do it in the context of the old lore and atmosphere, which would create a much more interesting faction.
I think the necrons wanting to have flesh again makes perfect sense because think about it not only they didn’t choose to be machines many of them still miss the idea of I don’t know feeling basic things touch or smell or even taste things we take for granted imagine every sense in your body being robbed from you and you’re forced to live unable to feel anything
The current Necrons would be better if they were trying to get their souls back rather than fleshy bodies. The rebellion would still work if the leaders were Necrons that kept their personalities/more of their souls thus allowing them to not be as controlled or at all.
Very close to my own opinion as a 3rd ed. Necron fan. Some details go wide but the core of the faction being killed off by the change definitely caused a lot of consternation. As I said to a newer Necron enjoyer "Old 'crons were GOING to win 40k, new 'crons CAN win 40k".
As an Oldcron fan and one introduced to 40K by a mix of Dawn of War and my parents buying me a classic Necron Heavy Destroyer (my very first mini), yes. Yes, they were just going ti win 40K.
Missed opportunity to insert courtney gears song, still a good video. Humanizing some alien just means that the writers lack creativity and the ability to think outside the box.
Yes! Finally found someone who agrees with my viewpoint on Necrons! Absolutely loved the 3rd edition lore. The whole "Necrons are barely-sentient beings totally under the thrall of giant Lovecraftian star vampires" was great, it really leaned into the cosmic horror angle. Since 5th Ed, the Necrons have just become yet another race of boring military aliens, and I hate it. Don't even get me started on the whole "Necrons and Blood Angels BFFs" thing, or how the giant Lovecraftian star vampires got humiliatingly retconned into giant Grimdark Pokemon. The only good thing to come out of 5th edition Necron lore was Trazyn, because the idea of an ancient being of incredible power who only uses his power to steal unique items across the galaxy because he wants to make the greatest museum ever is hilarious.
Thank you. Always saw them as something alienated from any sort of feelings, silent and turned to a husk, due to the gamble they took when they made a deal with the Devil. Sort of a reminder for the humanity to what can happen if they'll blindly belive the gifts that Chaos can offer. Making them too humanlike, with regrets, desires, or, C'tan forbid, fears removes that remorseless and uncaring fear element that they should emanate.
Necrons lore: "Necrontyr lives sucked, so they sacrificed themselves to dark gods, unknowable and indescribably powerful living entities. They were so advanced and powerful that they casually annihilated the entire galaxy, and then enjoyed it so much that they slept to wait for life to regrow so that they could do it again. During this time their science was so advanced that they accurately predicted the movement of every single astronomical body in the entire galaxy for sixty million years into the future without issue, and their technology persisted in perfect working condition. They are the ONLY faction in 40K to have ever actually achieved their full goals. They're playing New Game+. They are the ultimate end state of the setting and hard counter everything that exists. Their technology is so indescribable and unknowable that it appears as magic." ----------------- Newcrons lore: "Necrontyr lives sucked so they tried to fix it and failed, uh, they left but their lives still sucked because...um, reasons, and then they sucked so much that they all started trying to kill each other in a second massive failure. Then they met the Old Ones, tried to kill them, and sucked so hard that they failed a third time. Then they immediately went into a civil war, failing at life a fourth time. Then they met the Deceiver and became Necrons, but they were very sad about it. Then they mostly beat up the Old Ones, although they had a very difficult time doing so and they were heavily massacred by attempting it. After this they killed the C'tan, offscreen, with weapons so powerful that they were never used or mentioned again. This resulted in a heavy massacre of what small number of them remained. After this they fled in terror from the Eldar because they were so beat up. They didn't beat the Eldar before killing the C'tan offscreen because...uh, but well, so then they decided to stop fighting or defending themselves and just sleep their enemies to death. The Eldar then proceeded to blow up most of the tombs that were now not defending themselves whatsoever, resulting in yet another massacre of the Necrons in a tiny period of time. THEN, what handful the Eldar couldn't find entirely failed to predict any astronomical movements whatsoever. Most were destroyed, resulting in a FOURTH massacre of their numbers with zero replenishment, and what teeny-tiny handful remained failed wildly because their tech was far too poor to attempt this. Now what tiny scant remains of them persist are led by wacky slapstick cartoon characters, and everything they have is crumbling, falling apart, and failing on every level. Their numbers are miniscule, and their technology is so shattered and worthless that the AdMech even casually outclass it on a whim. They require a nonstop flow of liquid coolant to every part of their body or they shut down in seconds. They require constant repairs at all times using physical scarabs and beams and most can't ever actually repair or even really be salvaged at all. If they want to even attempt their hallmark reanimation they require a specific reanimation ship directly overhead their location or it doesn't work and they just perma-die if killed, and this can also fail if they just get punched really hard." HOWEVER All of this is a dramatic upgrade, I am assured, because they are precisely what ageless aliens should be: human and relatable.
to be fair, there is some badass factor in newcrons having KILLED THEIR GODS and now using them to power up their stuff instead of just serving them, which is what chaos already does. Still yeah they lost a lot of their mystery, no longer being implacable death machines but instead a collection of geriatrics with varying levels of mental illnesses. It does bring more variety into the faction and more to work with for stories, and also more for players to come up with an interesting background for their own force... but in the process, they went from a nigh unknowable threat to something too close to orks, unsure if it wants to be this unstoppable threat... or just silly and funny instead.
@@thorveim1174 Sure, I agree with that in principle, but following that logic, Tyranids should have all kinds of individuals with complete individuality. Otherwise they aren't human and relatable enough, and it's impossible for there to be stories about them and it's impossible for players to come up with backgrounds for their own forces. It's not true, it's just catering to people with a poor imagination who lack the ability to conceptualize the fact that there are people and things different from themselves...AKA Redditors..
@@Ankhtowe its not so much about them being human, and more about them having variety within the faction itself. As for the nid thing, do note that basically nothing is written with them as the protagonists... Fully agree changing them the same way necrons did would kill the faction completely, but yeah they dont lend themselves well to being anything else than the bad guy of the week because once you have talked about nids once, you basically talked about all of them already. Necrons meanwhile went from all being silent clankers to a race with various factions with differing goals and motives... Some of which possibly acting the exact same way as their 3rd edition counterpart. That does leave far more space for stories to happen that arent a copy/paste of eachother. Now is it worth the sacrifice of what 3rd edition necrons were? I guess thats up to each individual player, but seeing how popular some characters that newcrons allowed to exist are (Trazyn would not be able to exist under 3rd edition lore), its hard to argue it was a completely bad move, especially as oldcrons can still exist within the newcrons. However i will always miss the 3rd ed ones regardless
@@thorveim1174 "Popular = good" is a poor argument though. No one actually likes Trazyn for example, they like the meme version of Trazyn they read about in a comedy book which, by the way, also established that Newcrons can be choked to death. That's a thing that happens in that same book. Far too many people get the entirety of their lore knowledge from memes, which is why the best thing TTS ever did for Warhammer was die. As such, it is very very easy to argue that it was a bad move. Not for the company, but for the integrity of the setting certainly. There's a reason that "may your hobby hit mainstream audiences" is such a strong curse. Incidentally, GW has also been peppering several books now with plot hooks that Tyranids are trying to seek out and "infest", to use the Zerg term, individuals. They're definitely planning on making their own Kerrigan counterpart. Furthermore, Necrons didn't go from an entirely silent clanker race to what they are now. They were that *from a human perspective*. Not from their own, and that's the thing of it. You know they have their own language, their own society, their own structure, and you aren't a part of it. You cannot comprehend it, you will never comprehend it, you will always be inferior to it. The incomprehensibility IS the character. If you (the colloquial "you") need to come down and tell you how you're allowed to behave and imagine then that's your own failing. Your own weakness. Finally, as far as the Nids being protagonists are concerned, good. The Imperium are the good guys of the setting anyway.
It would have been better if they had gone full throttle into the horror elements of Necrons and turned them into an HR Geiger race of terror beings but instead of biomech p*rn they would have been a combination of brutal calculus and the unknowable, soul-eating void. What a missed opportunity
Having always found "eldritch horror" to be somewhat ludicrous even at the best of times, I'm not sure which delivers more _schadenfreude:_ Oldcron purists getting their Necrodermis panties in a bunch or Nid-lover meltdowns...🤔
The way I see it the silent silver tide is still here and present but just not the focus. We just look to the more human/conscious necrons in books because they make more compelling main characters.
I do think that the newcrons still have some potential for the DoW variety… but I do agree they went overboard with Necron character. Can’t say I hate some of the new ideas, but fuck then killing C’tan is just… dumb.
That’s a pretty good video, but I like the change of the necron’s lore. I’m okay with it humanizing them more because there are going to be people playing the necrons on the table. If I play necrons, I want there to be good deep lore to pull from beyond “they’re scary robots” All the human factions get endless lore, xenos players should get that too
sadly inevitable once something niche goes to mainstream or close to mainstream it is usually looses it original foothold that original identity that it once had for reason being to appeal to masses u have to make it more available to them more understandable and that where all the magic of unknown gets cutoff
I dont remember where the C'tan were omniscient They are very powerful beings, they represent a thing of the universe. But they wouldnt know what the silent king was machinating behind their backs while they were fighting each other
I’ve been playing since the end of fourth and I’ve got to disagree. I own the old necron codex and I love the short stories but there’s very little substance. I think you’re just being a bit of a contrarian. It’s still grimdark. I see your point on primaris marines in the other video mentioned here but I think there’s some dunning Krueger effect going on here, where you’re overestimating how much you actually know. I hate the funko pops, Amazon shows, and lifestyle brand deals Warhammer is trying to do now too, but the lore is still the best part of Warhammer. This is just someone longing for something they have no experience of.
very different lore and charactetization for pre & post 5e necrons, so definitely makes sense some people prefer one or the other. I'm a bigger fan of the newer 'space tomb kings' version myself, with more distinct personalities and feuding dynasties and ctan torn apart and made into batteries by the people they tried to subjugate and what have you.
5th was way better. In terms of reasons I named a lot of them but TH-cam did its thing so it disappeared and I am not in the mood to check everything word by word, so I will just provide a few highlights of it. 3rd was cliché, stagnant with no intresting characters and bound to get old way too fast. 5th was basically the Necrons true awakening from their slumber as an interesting faction. Some actual lore behind their culture, intresting characters (Trazyn & Orikan alone are the best duo in the galaxy), The story of the war in heaven made plenty more sense than the 3rd and it gave them some of the coolest units in the game.
Man this is the most old guard thing i have seen in a while. Necrons now have outright the best characters in the setting, the best 40k book written so far, they are awesome antitheist godkillers now. The concept that the individual dynasties care more about Fighting eachother than the other factions is so arrogant i love it. The Silent king never Wanted to return. As to grimdark, they now have to endure horrendous psyhological conditions which is a flaw that elevates their characters to such a high degree. ... Sidenote 5th ed was also the eddition tyranids got done cooking: Finalising their design and lore basis. There would have been Way to much overlab Theme wise if necrons stayed devoid of character.
It may actually be that the control device may not have that much control over the better necrons. Perhaps the device held control over all immortals and warriors but not nobility or crypteks. I can see the most of the nobility just going along with the Silent King on every matter he wants done in case they get a turn in using said device but necrons do live forever. So he does the next best thing and just breaks it because only he should be the one to use it.
Let's be honest, having two factions that just want to erase all life from the galaxy would be boring. Oldcrons were cool and scary, sure, but newcrons are great. Diversity in motivation and goals makes for a more dynamic and interesting faction to follow in narratives. And let's not kid ourselves, if necrons remained written as cosmic horror, they would just get their asses handed to them even more often than they do now. Why? Because faceless adversaries are perfect cannon fodder for bolter prawn novels about astartes kicking ass. Just look at the tyranids, again. When they were introduced they were, to quote a Magos of the Mechanicus "DEATH!!! BY THE MACHINE GOD!!! DEATH!!!" They threatened Ultramar and wiped out the Ultramarines 1st company, most of the chapter and Marneus Calgar got Black Knighted by the Hive Lord. I'll repeat myself. They almost destroyed the Ultramarines, the Poster Boys of the Poster Boys. An inquisitor went insane and started blowing up worlds en masse because he thought it was the only way to stop them, to starve them. And though he was excommunicated, no one ever said he was wrong. Now look at Tyranids in modern 40K. They are an afterthought at best in most narratives because they don't make for compelling villains or even stories most of the time. Seen one planet get devoured, seen 'em all and they don't change much. Best you can do is show how different factions confront them and get cool battles and action scenes out of them. Best we've gotten was the devastation of Baal and that was still just a retread of the Tyranid introduction with Blood Angels instead of Ultramarines. It had some cool scenes but sadly you just can't be afraid of Tyranids anymore. Not when them winning 1 campaign, eating 1 world on screen, is an event for the whole community. Meanwhile Newcrons have easily one of the best and most reccomended Warhammer novels ever published The Infinite and The Divine. I understand why you would be pissed about losing the oldcrons since they are also the ones I first met. But it's the best thing that could happened to them.
This. The diversity and the differences is needed for the War in Warhammer. Because if people put down their differences, they might just stop fighting.
As a “new hammer” fan (joined at the end of 8th) I get the oldcron idea and even like it a little more then newcron. However I do think the new lore gives much more homebrew ablility then old lore. Allows you to give character to your overlords. You may say that’s not the point of crons which is fair but I find the idea of no character to a faction to be boring, it’s why I don’t like the nids they’re just a mindless maw which has not creativity behind it
@brutalwave3800 Fair enough. Just keep in mind, where I am coming from, trying to see what made 40k grimdark in the first place and what its defined in order to be consistent with that genre. the more you look around and understand, the better you can enjoy.
@TheNellop oh I completely understand and agree with you. It’s much less grim dark than original but I think it’s still applicable to current 40k. It has more complexity to each side IMO now but hey, we can all agree with female custodes are a dumb retcon and that GW is retarded
i mean arent the necrons "zombies" supossed to be the mechanical horror that they were back then when they first appeared? Probably those fallen tumb worlds required more spotlight.
They are an exception devoid of any interesting lore and background, which in no way affect what is happening in the galaxy, as a result they are not able to be an adequate replacement for oldcrons (Stories and meta plots that were the basis of the old necron lore are impossible in the context of what you have described).
8:37 because he learned of the existence of tyranids after he broke the device and gave the other necron lords their free will? Him coming back made sense because why would he just abandon his race to annihilation even though he betrayed them before?
Sometimes it better to let things go. So, im not going to argue into a brick wall. That would be pointles. Newcrons are better BECAUSE they aren't grimdark. It makes them far more unique and interesting instead of just hur-dur kill everything. Also how dare you slander the infinite and the divine
I started playing Necrons in whatever edition they got their first codex. It was decades ago, I dont remember. Anyway I loved that they were the incomprehensible aliens with the goal of eradicating biological life in the galaxy. It made sense. While I do enjoy (some) of the modern lore, mostly around Trayzn, they have lost a lot of what drew me to them. I agree that WH40k has lost the grimdark. However after the last 10 years of watching every show, game, or franchise that I liked get fucking sacrificed at the altar of DEI-conformity, the GW authors screwing the pooch on lore isnt as painful as it would otherwise be.
Forget it, most current day players haven't read a good story in their entire life, they all need the same cheesy and worn out tropes. If they can't "relate" with something, they don't like it. That's why all Black Library books are written from a human point of view, even when we see the universe through the eyes if a xeno character, because your average high school kid won't be able to understand what's happening otherwise, and intelligence wise that's GWs target audience: kids and those on the same level.
Oh no, the moment u mentioned female custodes is when your true colors showed. Please return to R/HorusGalaxy and join the other rants about how the good old times were better.
In a short story from the 3E or 4E era, there was a short story where some Space Marines chance across some Necron stuff. The moment they see it they immediately fall back and call for heavy reinforcements and an evacuation. Their automatic response to seeing Necrons was that they were woefully incapable of fighting this foe.
Anyway in the novel Indomitus two dozen Primaris(tm) kill over a thousand Necrons in melee and only six of them are even hurt.
Primaris and it's consequences have been a mistake for the 40k lore
It’s interesting how Primaris get one-shotted in even the current cinematics by regular Necrons. Warhammer powerscaling is fickle and inconsistent at best.
i think we are settling down from the indomitus era bullshit marines since the entire squad of space marines (including a captain/luitenant) from the 9th edition trailer have been revealed to have been folded after the trailer ends
.
@@joshuafarrington3649 Exactly my point. "Uh...yeah actually, as a retcon, they totally lost after you saw them effortlessly massacring their way through the Newcrons. You know, offscreen. But it totally happened!"
That's a marketing move, not writing, and is entirely incompatible with what we were actually shown. GW's a very big believer in Tell, Don't Show.
And i instantly visualize the intro from Dark Crusadw, where seemingly a decent platoon of Blood Ravens is demolished within seconds by conveniently recently awaken necron tomb
Feels weird saying that 5th edition makes Necrons less grimdark because it 'humanizes' them when the lore ends up having the new-crons not be immune to the grimdark themselves, having their own suffering and potential bitter fate, the natural decay that comes from sleeping for millions of years, the horror of their biotransference being aknowledged that drives those who can still think to insanity, etc etc. Rather than being immune to it because they are just content in killing and murdering and just boiling down to being the second (or third) existential threat to the galaxy at large beside Tyranids (and chaos).
Compared to the Imperium's whole "Sir Girlyman comes back to life with help of a 'not like the other girls' space elf gf, and with help of Mr. Robot Wannabe Crawler after TEN THOUSAND YEARS are able to deploy the Super Duper Marines that are better than the old Normie Marines with all this new designs and concepts for a faction that is supposed to be known for their refusual to create anything new and then the Super Duper Marines boltered all over the chaos and xenos", the robot skeletons being developed to be more than glorified killbots doesn't seem as anti-grimdark as you said.
Also very cool that the example you used for 'bad' retcons is female custodes, a minor retcon that doesn't impact anything about the emperor's super special bodyguards beyond "hey some of them can be female if you want". Nowhere near the whole faction rework that happened with the necrons or even the squats (now known as Leagues of Votann, aka corporate clones that can't escape the shadow of DRG due to a lack of any deeper lore, instead of rogue abhuman bikers with land trains and actual space dwarves). Really letting some bias through there of something more whiney, especally with the Gamza cameo.
Agreed. The only thing I didn't like about the new-crons was turning the c'tans into pokémons although I can see the reasoning why since GW wrote themselves into a corner when they wrote them as realspace's chaos gods and had to find a way to nerf them without taking away their cosmic horror theme and thought that have them shattered and sealed by the necrons was a good idea (whether you think the same or not is up to you personally I don't mind anymore)
@@smithrobloxian921 he didn't mention the cutstodes once tho?
@@bruhmoment2600 He literally does at 13:33
@bruhmoment2600 I did. Its easy to say there could be female custodies when 40k doesn't have cannon any longer.
The whole Horus heresy novels and siege of terra plus the codexes in before 10th all male custodies.....well if we stay consistent with "cannon". But because of the "retcon" it changes completely of the view of the custodies in large and it gives you the idea of, why even bother reading the HH and other books since Games Workshop will change things on a whim and its not the only thing they have changed.
Okay, but on the grimderp bit. Not every single moment every all the time has to be depressing or grim, etc. You need contrast and different moments, otherwise the trope is just cheesy and overdone. For example, genuine romance or a semi happy ending in one story, doesn't change the over all setting in other stories. The moments of good should be rare, but still a thing. Like when the one armed marine beats the destroyer in that animation
Thank you for proving my point.
Wow, you’re kind of a tool. I’ve been playing since 4th Ed, and as flattered as I am by some European zoomer getting super into the stuff I loved, I’ve always been rubbed the wrong way by people like you in the hobby.
Youre just an elitist.
@@TheNellop
Dude the Silent King being a real character adds to the Grimdark not taking away from it
@@devildolphin2102 Wrong.
@@TheNellop
Cope Harder AndyPantsGaming
I think the 5th ed lore writers realised they messed up with removing the "old school kill all organics necrons" by adding the "destroyer plague" which removes their nobles and rulers personas to going back to the 3rd ed necrons and some tomb worlds are controlled solely by Tomb World AI so that is also a throwback to 3rd Ed, and also that orange coloured dynasty that deletes organics.
Also one thing i noticed about the Ctan retcon in 5th, that they had the C'Tan, beings of the pure physical universe with no warp reflection, that are intrinsic to our reality, have the ability to consume souls or warp energy from the necrontyrs discarded forms, that shouldn't be possible, I remember one entry in 3rd ed where a daemon talks to Abbadon iirc about the Ctan consuming the physical forms or biological matter/energy of the Necrontyr and discarding the souls, which flooded into the Warp and were consumed by warp predators on mass. Why they retconned it to have the C'tan consume souls like the Chaos Gods or Daemons could doesn't make sense either.
Probably to limit it like ‘oh, uh yeah… it is literally using our bullets as food, and will probably munch our world… that is what the bugs do we can’t have two factions doing rhe same thing!’
Honestly sun based/energy based beings sounds more interesting and then ‘oh fuck yeah we now have metal bodies we can leave the sun and not starve to death!’ Being the catalyst for the war in heaven sounds so simple and fantastic at the same time.
‘The sun is giving us cancer.’
Releases beings from the cancer sun.
Old Ones: *panic*
@@silent_stalker3687 I found the Ctan eating sun/life energy/radiation far more interesting than eating warp energy/souls as we already had chaos doing that, If the necrons win, the Ctan in the new lore would starve to death because every living creature would loose its soul through the pylon network cutting off the warp for good, while in the old lore the ctan would have no limits to their feasting and not have to worry about warp predators and psykers.
Got to disagree. The lore is far more interesting now
I politely disagree
More convoluted? Yes
Interesting? No not really as most of current 40k has and will be
Bogdanoff has spoken, know your place curs!
I was there at the store picking up these books on release day, up in northern Ohio. I loved the simple 3rd ed necrons w the straightforward lore. And I liked the pariah lore. Back then there wasn't much on that topic. When the 5th edition book came out I remember GW was also revamping their WFB undead into Tomb Kings. Reading the huuuuge bloat in lore detail seemed silly at the time but also another symptom that GWs designers had come down with 'Egypt Fever'. We're 'The Mummy' films big then? Anyway the characters were so cool I forgave GW immediately and got on the hype train to space memphis.
Trazyn and Orikan fighting the Shards of the deceiver is 100 times more interesting than old lore.
If you think the modern Silent King being a immortal lord racked by guilt and trying to be better is not better than quiet terminator yours just trying to be Different
The only thing the change did, was give the necrons actual character.
yeah but thats also the problem though.
@@darkranger116well, how so? They’re still sentient, just soulless.
@@1C3CR34M grimdark dystopian fascist h*llscapes need less humanization in order to sell the feeling. Turning around and saying "well yeah but the necrons kinda have human aspirations as well" Like.. Nah. They're not human. They never were. They are never going to be.
A human, who got turned into a robot 50 million years ago, would have the aspiration to turn himself back into a flesh body if given the chance. Humans would want to do that. Because our natural flesh bodies dont have the immune system of a wet paper bag (necrons when they were flesh).
Necrons, would not. Necrons, even in their conscious misery, fully understand that them existing AS NECRONS is part of the reason they can even CONTAIN the c'tan in the first place. Why they can even MAINTAIN their empire. Why they can fight against chaos and the imperium. Without their full mastery and control of necrodermis, they're nothing more than "green-day tau" with the immune systems of a 200 year old man.
they were a bunch of soulless slaves with no will of there own bar a few...they were not made to have character they were made to be the end boss
@@darkranger116
Yeah and the Silent king is now Amazing. Glad we didn’t listen to you
I prefer the newer necrons as opposed to the old 3rd edition ones. They simply are more entertaining for me while being capable of that horrific grimdark beauty I love. The Twice Dead King showcases exactly why they work better: more interesting characters. The way Oltyx tries to fight off the flayer curse and the depressing showcase of what missing a soul looks like is what makes the modern necrons more enjoyable. It’s a lot like Skaven you have your horrific nightmare fuel science and evil experiments but also have a fucking hilarious character roster. The Infinite and the Divine would never exist under 3rd edition. Keep in mind I was introduced to 40K through the first Dawn of War games so I have a soft spot for my older necrons, but they would reached their narrative limit far too quickly. The old necrons would’ve had the same issues the Tyranids have now with a handful of named characters and almost nothing from their perspective. This is fine for the Tyranids since they are an extragalactic threat with no history in our galaxy, but the Necrons aren’t like that they have a long history with the Eldar and a lot of narrative potential for other factions that simply wouldn’t work if they were still basically robots. As for the reasons why they wish to go back to flesh, read necron stories and you’ll see being a soulless robot with the mind of an organic creature is torture. Oltyx claws at his metallic throat to breathe when he starts to panic. No modern necron can ever make art or music nor engage with art or music in any meaningful way. The only way to prevent the flayer virus is be obsessive towards goals you’ll never accomplish(hence why Trayzn is seemingly immune since he always one artifact away from finishing his museum). They are immortal sure but they lack the very things that make life worth living. The whole reason the silent king hates the nids is because they would doom the Necrons to forever wander dead planets until they inevitably malfunction. Plus they didn’t get rid of the old necrons they simply renamed them the Empire of the Severed and added destroyer cults to other dynasties. They also didn’t sanitize the modern necrons I don’t know where you got that from. Illuminor Szeras literally experiments on still living subject carefully pulling them apart and studying them to see he can master life and death to ascend to godhood. The pariah nexus is terrifying bringing Astartes to their knees before making planetfall. The previously mentioned depth added to the flayer virus is amazing. You’d have to try hard to ignore the terrors of the modern necrons.
I understand preference but the modern necrons are far more interesting than a less interesting chaos gods using robot with little to no personality past DEATH HAS COME FOR YOU. Especially when compared to a faction of soulless people slowly going insane while wielding fragments of their old gods as batteries.
k
@@TheNellop Again, another dismissive bad faith response. Why even respond?
@@TheJaranuJanic because he's a contrarian larping as a "true fan"
@@denishrg9843 Yeah, pretty much. He's not gonna actually respond to *any* of this. I've seen several comments criticizing him and of course, he gives a complete nothing burger of a response. Because why defend anything you say, right?
@@TheNellop
Cope&Seethe Fake Fan
Nice video, the copystrike will hit harder than the new necron lore will.
True.
Old man Gamza strikes again
*I'AM THE ALPHA MALE* 🐺🐺🐺
Id say both versions of the Necrons offer different types of grimdark. The newcrons have more internal grimdarkness. Their mental decay and potential for storytelling. I just think 40k made them a joke, as in many animations they get one shot or in books, where a handful of space marines manage to kill hundreds of warriors.
I think the appeal of Oldcrons can be summed up by how I was first introduced to them:
I was 15, still new to 40k, on the final level of Winter Assault's IG campaign. After several long, grueling minutes of holding the line against the enemies of Man, I finally get the last generator up, thinking I'd won. But then the cutscene started. The Commissar reveals the Titan crew is getting anomalous readings, and then it happens: A massive, dark pyramid descends and deploys armies of skeletal robots called "Necrons". Cool intro, but what really struck me was how they were dead silent as they trudged along. No insane babble like the Chaos Marines. No war cries like the Orks. Not even a leader boasting about how he's going to crush you. Nothing. I *knew* I was in for a fight when even all the Commissar could say was "Emperor be with us" under his breath. And I was, because the Obelisks tore through my "invincible" defenses like paper with my only real hope being the Titan's weapons, which took what felt like forever to recharge. Managed to beat them by the skin of my teeth, just 2 or 3 units remaining. Easily one of the most unforgettable moments of any game I've played and in 40k canon.
In old times, necron frigate was equivalent to a battlleship from any other faction.
You lost me at "They removed the seriousness completely"
That removed my ability to take you seriously completely.
That removed my ability to take your comment seriously.
This removed my ability to take TH-cam Seriously
@@pugaleto9578 damN
Personally I like newcron lore over oldcron lore, but I can appreciate why some liked the old more.
Have you read the Infinite and the Divine?
“But you don’t understand necrons were so much better when they were a one note and one dimensional faction!!”
The Borg from Star Trek sucked ass as soon as they introduced the Queen. Much better as a *one dimensional faceless force of nature*.
@@walternelson2687 We already have that with the Tyranids. Hence why no one gave a shit about the Necrons until they overhauled the faction and fleshed it out more.
They were, now they are basically humans with some more advanced tech. They could have just removed the cringy wE wAnT tO bE MoRtAl AgAiN part and it would have been okay-ish
@@Raptorman0205 who is you? AOS kids that have been in the hobby for 6 months?
@@bobdole8830 I've been in the hobby since 2010 =) I remember when the 5th ed Necrons book was first released.
spoken like a true mechanicus cultist
I think there is this thing called "The Narrative" which would be a lot shorter and less entertaining if the most powerful faction in the setting was a united empire that decided to conquer the galaxy and eradicate all life with little capable of opposing. You have some points in that GW seems to be toning down the Grimdark, but you can sell more stuff if that stuff is marketable. Also I think they really wanted Space Tomb Kings.
You just contradicted yourself mixing with entertainment and grimdark which they don't mix together if you don't understand what grimdark is meant to portray.
@@TheNellop If the Necrons were united the setting wouldn't exist, I don't disagree with you in that there have been many changes that aren't really "Grimdark". but this is also a franchise, their decisions are typically profit based (except that femstodes nonsense) the things they do is to drive sales for inordinately priced plastic miniatures. I do understand what grimdark is and we agree things are going kind of baby mode. But I don't entirely think every choice they've made, like "humanizing" Necrons, was a bad decision. Though your point on them being cooler when they were more mysterious and alien is agreeable.
@TheNellop lol it's a game how is entertainment incompatible with grimdark when it's a board game first and the lore is second
@TheNellop Entertainment doesn't mean "It makes you feel good and happy", it means "Something that amuses, pleases, or diverts".
If you didn't find old Necrons entertaining you literally wouldn't have made a clearly passionate video about them.
I personally would have never picked that original Necrons codex for my first army when I got into 4th edition if I didn't find the concept of playing an army of emotionless skeletal robots entertaining.
Comments like this is why you are going to never getting arguments "In Good Faith" because instead of responding to anything the person said in terms of their argument about the Narrative, you make this comment that is literally nonsensical. People do not engage with things unless it entertains them in some way. Could be joy, could be intrigue, could be thrill.
Your comment, as is, implies you don't find/think Grimdark is entertaining which makes me wonder why you would care that 40K got less Grimdark?
@@TheJaranuJanic That's a strawman argument and that's not what I am saying.
"the terminator franchise wouldve been better if the terminator just went round killing things like the rest of his kind at the start of the movie and never changed"
Yeah, I don't see how the necron's having personalities is bad. Having another terminator is just dog shit.
@@zeek1707 The problem is not that necrons have personalities (For example,Ctan,lords and pariahs already had individuality), but that from a terrible threat to all living things, they turned into just another xenos tyrants (Which describes 99% of xenos in 40K), as well as in the destruction of the old lore (Not one of the old plot not It has developed in the Newcron laura, not to mention the destruction of many interesting concepts, such as pariahs) and a radical change in tone and style, so the problem is not in the changes themselves, but in how the faction was changed,, as well as the fact that these explanations were not adequately explained (I will give as an example the films you mentioned about the terminator, then why the terminator in the 2nd film differs from the terminator from the 1st was adequately explained, there are no rare necrons, the whole explanation is that it has always been so and oldcrons never existed (At most it is separate the degraded worlds of the tomb and the escaped fragments of the Ktan were taken, which completely devalued the entire old ent (Which subsequent terminator films did not do)).
0:30 I'm calling the Inquisition.
On one of Guilliman’s sons? They get a pass. Think no more of it, for your sake.
Changed. Many people (including me) love the post lorechange Necrons.
mods, delete this mans necron army range.
Old cron lore of only the most willful survived was the most interesting thing. Now it's just the same old kings as before ruling the same old serfs but they are lobotomized. The will to persevere in their war is what drives them, they take command because no others will, and they are fighting the gnaw of time on their psyche. A nice take, kinda similar to a chaos warband or hivefleet but drama when multiple willful crons exist.
8th edition added a lot of new lore that is a good read but it's very different to the original design of an army of skelly t800s.
Look forward to your next vid.
I wish that Necrons kept both factions. Like SM/CSM, Eldar/DE.
You could have C'tan enslaved necrons vs Dynastic free necrons.
It would make sense that these 2 necron factions would keep each other in check.
The new Trazyn memes are fine, but star Cthulhu becoming s pokemon is just silly.
Well they still have the destroyer virus if you prefer old-school Necrons.
"Hey, unfathomable immortal Eldridge horror from beyond, put this metal beetle thing on the back of your neck, y'know.. it'll be fun...", "Whut? Yuh okay... *click* Nurrrr you pranked me, bruh."
Oldschool warhammer elitists will look at Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Cluseau or a faction leaders name being a funny way of pronouncing margaret thatcher and tell you with a strait face about how everything used to be so serious back in the day and how everything was ruined once they stopped doing grimdark.
I have jet to read a full length warhammer 40k novel without comedic undertones. It startet out as a parody and if anything they tried to do more serious writing since then.
The new lore does not lack darkness compared to the old one, there is still plenty of that. It lacks nostalgia when it comes to you specificly
They aren’t oldhammer
They’re 2000’shammer
@Ayahuasca98 that's almost 20 years ago now (calling it oldschool is not a stretch imo) and applicable for every older generation getting into the hobby.
It's always the retcon retconning their prefered retcon that is the bad one (but you see their retcon was nessesary because the lore was stupid before their time)
It's like those old writings from ancient romans complaining about how "todays youth is worthless, lazy and way to pampert to do real work", a never changing constat in the nature of humanity, only this time it's about the serious matter of paintable plastik toys and their deep lore
tone down the amount of edits bro im getting a headache with all these cutaway gags
Skill issue
Bro was giving you constructive criticism
5:33 No, that doesn't make more sense.
3rd Edition Necron Codex: "In the shade of Terra, beneath the mountains of mist, there is a new type of death. A sacrifice of men, but the precious souls are not consumed, they are cast adrift. Many are the daemons that wait like carrion to feast on the leavings from this rich table."
C'tan canonically can't eat souls. Changing from that is a retcon that just makes them another kind of daemon.
Wrong
@@TheNellop You got a quote to back that up?
@@TheNellopbro you're an actual manchild
I absolutly prefer the new necron lore. But the C'tan can eat souls, you can see in the "infinite and the divine"(a astronomacly good book, alone for that the newcrons are better) that a bunch of deciever shards ate aeldari souls. And in the twice dead king they are clearly eating the souls of necronthyr in a flashback. But they are still beings of the materium and so no daemons. Which makes them and their powers immune to anti warp powers like the sisters of silence.
@@elitehenrylegio 'Aeldari'.
I think I see the problem.
Bro u gotta chill out with the nonstop cutaways
no
Bringing up the Adeptus Mechanicus, an important distinction between them and the Necrons is that Mechanicus do not have their souls removed/eaten in the process of being augmented. They are still "Alive". Newcrons are spiritually dead, but consciously alive. The desire for organic bodies is clearly a doomed hope of having souls again to have all the things that come with BEING alive that Mechanicus would still have in varying cases/degrees
Bodily Sensations, the abilty to procreate and experience intimacy, they sight of a living person in the mirror, the ability to create; all things Necrons have lost, and the ones that still have any mind left even have nothing to do but pass time. The Necrons didn't just lose their souls. They lost the reasons they even wanted to escape death in the first place. There isn't a Necrontyr society anymore. There isn't a Necrontyr culture anymore. There will never be a new Necrontyr. They are dead. Just instead of their skeletons being mindless, some get to suffer the consequences of the Silent King's foolishness until they find something that can either kill them or save them.
And in a setting like Warhammer, even in modern less Grimdark Warhammer, nobody is going to save them.
5th Ed ruleset was imo fun to play because it struck a good balance between being a simple rule-set with a pinch of complexity but became the poster boy of power creep...oh look a new OP flavor of space marines GW wants to sell came out! 🤑
The 5th ed necron codex leaned fully into the power creep aspect of 40k: "here's the latest OP models with freshly made up lore for you to buy!"
Man I will admit I kinda respectfully disagree but from looking at your replies and how you respond even to people giving their own respectful disagreements and own opinions. I'm kinda wondering if you're actually doing things in good faith.
They are not here for a conversation, they are here to give me that lecture attitude and straw man me to death.
Ill give some examples
Grim dark as I have repeatedly said before its so messy and there is no such thing as hope. But the counter argument is trying to add a little of hope in there but by definition that is not the case.
In this video I talk about specifically using a contrast principle of 3rd and 5th edition codexes. The counter argument is always talking about new books or giving non argument fallacy that are not related to this topic. K why not the old books? I have only found someone vaguely mentioning old books pre 5th edition but it never specified of which ones which in the comments here.
I'm here showing objectively when it comes to grimdark 3rd edition is superior by definition but all I get is opinions of what they like, its better that its not grim dark (even though gw shows it otherwise), ect. ect. Its never objective and its mostly straw man arguments.
@@TheNellop Grimdark is not nihilism! You're the one coping
@@denishrg9843 Find me a definition that Grim dark is not nihilism or allows hope.
Eh, they’re cooler now.
They do not use fridges in their mechanical bodies.
Back in the day the 3rd edition codex was just something else. Written purely from imperial perspective with the little scrap of information they had about this inknown foe rising from tombs, it set the tone of an ominous, horrific enemy completely devoid of every emotion, making them a complete antithesis to chaos which is raw emotion. Soulless, heartless, often even mindless machines, which clearly was inspired by Terminator and brought forth this very same almost primal fear.
And then they turned into whatever this whole dynasty crap is, completely removing any mystery or aura they had.
I miss 3rd edition Necrons.
I’d argue the newcron lore grants them an air of tragedy and intrigue.
@@clydemarshall8095 For me personally I got enough tragedy out of the imperium as a whole. The whole thing feels like one giant cooking pot of tragedy.
What I miss from the necrons is that feeling of slight unease or terror I got from them. I never got legit scared, but there was something thrilling about the fact that they could not be reasoned with. You either fled from them, baited them into fighting someone else, like the eldar would do or you fought them.
With the 5th edition necrons and the silent king involved suddenly diplomacy is an option. It would be like John Connor in the future going to Skynet's HQ and sitting down to have a talk with it. It would remove some (Certainly not all) the tension if the evil force can be reasoned with.
Virgin 3rd Ed Necrons: "Oh, we're a species of little bitches who were enslaved by our gods! Woe is me!"
Gigachad 5th Ed Necrons: "Though our souls were taken from us, we shattered and enslaved our gods. We were there when the stars were young and after the last of them dies, we will remain. For we are immortal."
That said, I view the 3rd Ed as laying out the groundwork for what will later become the 5th Ed. They never really had that level of mystery to them from what you've shared but they were pretty cool. 5th just gave them some spice and variety and made them infinitely scarier than before. The fact they not only overthrew their gods but enslaved them already puts them leagues ahead of their 3rd Ed counterpart in terms of "Oh shit!" factor.
Now if only GW could realize just how scary the current Necrons really are.
...Or-
3rd Ed: Creeping menace that inspire an almost existential dread & are widely regarded as the eventual doom of the galaxy; cold & inevitable as death itself...
Vs-
5th Ed: Knock-off tomb kings _IN SPEESS_ who can't get their sh*t together enough to actually conquer anything because they're too busy squabbling amongst themselves...
Uh, yeah... I think I know which iteration I prefer!
@@PeteTheGrouch 🤝
@@PeteTheGrouch So just robot Tyranids?
Sorry mate, Thousand Sons already have taken the role of space Egyptians in my heart. And Pariahs & DoW narrating >>> everything else
@@PeteTheGrouch Then why didn't the oldcrons rip the imperium in three then? I swear you guys are a lost cause
So I think the problem here personally is the nature of Warhammer being a perpetual franchise it really takes the edge off factions like the oldcron and the tyranid since it heavily waters down there grimdark potential because they can't be the unstoppable monsters they would be in any other setting because they have to keep selling you overpriced plastic men and books. It's why I prefer when Warhammer doesn't take it self seriously and is just cool guy punches spikey cool guy while the heavy metal is playing in the background.
There is literally 10000 years from the Heresy to present the explore and sell us new figures with the mediocrity of the replacements for the original creators that they drove off
The Titans were the original "gods" in mythology, they were overthrown by the Olympians who were of lesser height and strength. Its possible to overcome a greater foe if you change the nature of the battle. I think there should have been a better narrative explanation for the change.
Sir this is a wendys.
The Titans weren't taller
@@Jakov-or7fpYou can not prove nor disprove that statement.
Hmmm.....counterpoint, "The Infinite and The Divine" was a REALLY good book.
That's a non argument fallacy
@@TheNellophow is that a fallacy?
Without the lore change, books that are universally praised such as Infinite & Divine, and Twice Dead King wouldn’t have come to fruition.
@@JonathanBueno-t4o Those books are funny from time to time I'll give credit to that.
The fallacy is, just because the books are praised or they are good it doesn't make it Grim dark.
My question will be is, other than those books, is there any other older books or short stories that are good and is grim dark? Necron specific.
IIRC, 5th Edition is also what introduced the whole "60 million year" bullshit to the timeline, whereas 3rd Edition just had the War in Heaven be "eons ago", keeping the exact age of the event mysterious and enigmatic, since it predates Humanity. So I'd go so far as to say that the 5th Edition Necron Codex was not only a black mark on the Necrons, but on 40k as a whole.
really like your editing.
I love my Necrons both old and new. I see it that the mass of terminators with no soul marching quietly towards you is how everyone else sees them and the more humanized bickering side is how they see themselves. Like how the Orcs see themselves as a bunch of lads that like a good crumping but the rest of the galaxy sees them as horrifying monsters that eat human flesh. Lets agree that the Tyranids need to remain as an unknowable outside force.
They made necrons not scary anymore, they certainly have more units now but they are kinda more like cartoons with godlike powers rather than mysterious skeletons...
Well, that’s because if they were scary, all consuming force, they would literally be doing the same job as the Tyranids and they would be easily overshadow by the bugs in every way, which is why the lore change happened
3rd edition necrons were extremely one dimensional. Their lore wasnt so much grim dark as grim boring. like extremely boring.
Your test results came back and it is an F.
Because you think the tyranids aren't one dimensional ? Not every factions needs to have an internal turmoil.
You could argue then we already have the one dimensional kill everything faction old necrons are essentially just metal tyranids atleast with the current ones they fill a niche whether you are a fan or not
@@Thesavagesoulsthere only needs to be one one dimensional all consuming faction, Not two
@@Thesavagesouls This is an INTELLIGENT ancient race, not some munchy hive mind
Cool video. I don't agree with some points, others I did...thank you for showing the old lore of the Necron's before the retcon... can't seem to find it anywhere online.
Yeah its hard to find some digital copies as GW being GW and not allowing people passing books around to people.
It will require some deep looking if you are doing it solo like how I did.
Unless you're lucky to have some people to share info around.
Or you are rich enough to by the physical people.
I see where you're coming from, but the new lore is much much better, Necrons actually have characters and personalities which the old lore simply didn't really have and "Kill all life" is such a boring motivation for it to be your entire faction's deal. Now we have characters like Trayzn who is an absolutely phenomenal character that simply cannot exist in the old lore. And the politics between the various necron lords like Imotekh and Szarekh is always super interesting to read about. And their desire to return to flesh gives them such a great dynamic the AdMech whenever they cross paths because the AdMech desire to get to where the necrons are and the necrons are always like, "It's not as good as it seems", which is such an interesting dynamic
I can understand your point of view, but I will object to you as a fan of oldcrnows, more complex motivation does not always make something more interesting, oldcrons had simple motivation, but at the same time had well-developed lore and background, which combined with their simple motivation worked, the oldest and most strongly influenced race in the galaxy is no more than slaves of evil ancient gods who want to bring death to all living things, while the presence of a personality in necrons is not inappropriate, pariahs and lords already possessed it (Even there were intrigues of lords and Ktan among themselves, this was mentioned in the codes), but to develop characters it was possible without turning the faction into something that had nothing to do with the original concept, as well as without throwing all the old lore into the trash (And definitely without turning Ktan into Pokemon).
You’re actually wrong
The codex specifically mentions the deceiver adding the pariah gene into the human gene pool
And then has an entire short story about a blank being enticed by visions into going to a tomb world
(I am an oldcron supporter.)
I have no idea where you got it from but it is not in the 3rd ed codex.
@@TheNellop As a fan of oldcrons since the days when they were relevant, I confirm that the necron pariahs were made of people, we have a good example:Thomas Makambi from DOW DC, who was originally a human archaeologist serving the Tau Empire(It was implied that the pariahs were the beginning of a project to transform a certain part of the human population into a new kind of cyborg servants who perform the function of bodyguards and overseers of slaves (This is well shown in many old art, where pariahs were often depicted performing their 2nd function)).
@@funnydreadking9237 Thanks for the info my man, the old novels might give a better perspective but I mainly focused the bed rock of lore which are the 3rd and 5th necron codexes. Ill put a pin in my to do list when I can get the chance to read it.
I wasn't arguing that it wasn't made out of humans.
It was specific that the deceiver was responsible adding the pariah gene, which its plausible but I cannot see it in the 3rd ed.
And a blank being enticed by visions into going to a tomb world? that could've been mixed with the shadow games in 3rd ed Necron codex where the eldar had visions for the assassin blanks imperium base.
@@TheNellopThe pariah you mentioned is the first pariah, one of the named characters of the old necrons, one of the first pariahs turned into a necron pariah, a separate event was dedicated to him by the company (Unfortunately, despite mentions in the lore, outside the company, he never received a reissue of his miniature and the rules in the codex (I will also add that it was the norm for the Oldcrons to subjugate someone through the vedas, there were whole cults serving the necrons (They generally had a pretty good agetural network throughout the galaxy, for example, this is well shown in xenology)) and yes,shadow game is one of the fragments of the codex of the 3rd edition, which talks about the artificial origin of the pariah gene, the Eldar describe the pariah as a crop planted in the field of the human race, which will soon begin to be harvested.
I just really like the old, colorless artwork tha blends into the background....
The Necrons change isngood because it's a WARGAME where people make a real investment of creativity, time, and especially money into their armies. Frankly, the Necrons being a one-trick pony with no personality beyond being spooky evil robots that kill stuff may work more in a purely narrative sense, but having characters and dynasties is what makes them feel like a real faction in the creative hobby that is miniature painting.
Fully agree, the Necron was a sleeping dragon, a danger the imperium wasn't capable of handling if they awoken, like the Borg in Star Trek. Cold and emotionless, their awakening would be a march to galactic domination. Now they are underpowered, infighting factions, not mysterious. This is the fate of modern GW, they need to constantly release some new bigger badder threat. They even made the minifigs less cool. I loved the 3rd edition Necrons that came with clear green tubes you put into the gauss rifles, the transparent green was a nice touch. They don't even got that now.
Agree with a lot of what you said but I hated the tubes on the gauss weapons.
Never cook again bro 🙏😭
I am a person who got acquainted with the necrons during the 4th edition, the oldcrnos were my main faction and in many ways I agree with the author of the video.The Oldcrons were a truly dark and terrible faction, doomed forever to be slaves of terrible and alien hungry gods because of their hatred and stupidity, wishing to turn people into the same monsters (The Pariahs were only the beginning of humanity's transformation into a new race of slaves to the Ctan),They radiated the atmosphere of how they greatly influenced the galaxy (Influence on the evolution of other species, a huge role in the mythology of many races and factions (Many minor races of xenos were developed precisely thanks to the old lore of necrons, for example, it was thanks to the oldcrons that we learned a lot about the Hruds)).At the same time, and in the context of more modern events, they were quite significant (In the old lore, the necrons were one of the reasons for the appearance of the black legion (It was the Deceiver who helped Abbadon find his sword), as well as it was the necrons who organized the Gothic war), which again worked on the image of a powerful ancient threat, while they were just perfectly presented, ancient machines, every victory over which is a feast and which even such fanatics as the word bearers are afraid of, it's cool.Also, the old lore was just rich in various interesting concepts (the Parties mentioned earlier, arguments about the differences and similarities of order and chaos, and many other things).The Oldcrons also did a great job of portraying aliens, the necrons and k'tan were intelligent and had a personality, but this personality was completely alien and evil.The new ent unfortunately abandoned most of the things that made the oldcrons unique (And also just made a number of very strange and unnecessary changes (I still don't understand why it was necessary to change the wraith, necron bandits are much cooler than just robots)),At the same time, having too humanized the faction, which is why they scare much less, they look mostly like just petty tyrants (Which is much less original, since this is a description of most of the inhabitants of the 40k galaxies),Also, the presentation has become much weaker (For example, in the old lore, even the necrons of war were a serious threat, while now they are mostly B1 from SW),At the same time, the changes were very poorly explained, and there was no place left for the old dragons in the new lore (Old storylines are not being developed, and it is still impossible to play with the dynasty serving Ktan (Copying the Tomb Kings of GW and did not add followers of Nagash in space, one of the most interesting sub-factions of WH FB)),At the same time, I can't help but notice that there were positive moments, I understand why necrons have fans, there were several interesting characters and cool units (I really like the concept of cryptek),but in my opinion, the changes were too radical and unnecessary, most of the new units and concepts, with some refinement, could be implemented in the context of the old lore of necrons (Oldcrons were already aristocrats capable of intrigue (This was mentioned in the code of the 4th edition, as well as in xenology (I strongly advise you to read it to the author of the video, as well as to all who read this comment, a great background book)),there were already necron characters (The First Pariah, the Herald of Storms), who already had personality and were characters, if they wanted to develop the personality of the Necrons, they could do it in the context of the old lore and atmosphere, which would create a much more interesting faction.
I like this comment more than the video.
@@genatools9750 Thanks for the compliment.
Thank you for the video, I totally agree. ❤
I never got in to necron lore
DamN
Good Video as always
You can’t have hopeless without initial hope you’ll be left with less in every way. You can’t have a good story without some hope.
I like the silent king lore and the terminators enslaving gods is way cooler to me than old lore
I think the necrons wanting to have flesh again makes perfect sense because think about it not only they didn’t choose to be machines many of them still miss the idea of I don’t know feeling basic things touch or smell or even taste things we take for granted imagine every sense in your body being robbed from you and you’re forced to live unable to feel anything
I own 10 necrons that were given to me a few years back, gotta say im mighty curious going into this one (with some persuasion I might buy more)
Spent 10k army of new necrons rn, no balls.
@@TheNellop damn....
The current Necrons would be better if they were trying to get their souls back rather than fleshy bodies. The rebellion would still work if the leaders were Necrons that kept their personalities/more of their souls thus allowing them to not be as controlled or at all.
The warp is anathema to them how would they get their souls back if its been eaten by materialistic beings like the C'tan.
@@TheNellop, in the words of a famous fake moonknight panel "random bullshit go"
@@TheNellopthey could Override other Souls with their own conciousness
@@Jakov-or7fp ?????
Im glad that you are adding memes in intervals, so that my zoomer brain would get a recharge. Keep it up lad!!!
Very close to my own opinion as a 3rd ed. Necron fan. Some details go wide but the core of the faction being killed off by the change definitely caused a lot of consternation. As I said to a newer Necron enjoyer "Old 'crons were GOING to win 40k, new 'crons CAN win 40k".
As an Oldcron fan and one introduced to 40K by a mix of Dawn of War and my parents buying me a classic Necron Heavy Destroyer (my very first mini), yes.
Yes, they were just going ti win 40K.
They became Tomb Kings...IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAACE!
Missed opportunity to insert courtney gears song, still a good video. Humanizing some alien just means that the writers lack creativity and the ability to think outside the box.
I think I'll go play some Up your Arsenal now
My nitpick is they should have been called C'tan and only called Necrons after. Just adding or subtracting "tyr" just seemed lazy.
Lore in the "forces of" section was standard practice in 4th and 5th edition codexes. I actually liked it, because it was lore to read as a kid
Yes! Finally found someone who agrees with my viewpoint on Necrons!
Absolutely loved the 3rd edition lore. The whole "Necrons are barely-sentient beings totally under the thrall of giant Lovecraftian star vampires" was great, it really leaned into the cosmic horror angle.
Since 5th Ed, the Necrons have just become yet another race of boring military aliens, and I hate it. Don't even get me started on the whole "Necrons and Blood Angels BFFs" thing, or how the giant Lovecraftian star vampires got humiliatingly retconned into giant Grimdark Pokemon.
The only good thing to come out of 5th edition Necron lore was Trazyn, because the idea of an ancient being of incredible power who only uses his power to steal unique items across the galaxy because he wants to make the greatest museum ever is hilarious.
Thank you. Always saw them as something alienated from any sort of feelings, silent and turned to a husk, due to the gamble they took when they made a deal with the Devil. Sort of a reminder for the humanity to what can happen if they'll blindly belive the gifts that Chaos can offer. Making them too humanlike, with regrets, desires, or, C'tan forbid, fears removes that remorseless and uncaring fear element that they should emanate.
Necrons lore: "Necrontyr lives sucked, so they sacrificed themselves to dark gods, unknowable and indescribably powerful living entities. They were so advanced and powerful that they casually annihilated the entire galaxy, and then enjoyed it so much that they slept to wait for life to regrow so that they could do it again. During this time their science was so advanced that they accurately predicted the movement of every single astronomical body in the entire galaxy for sixty million years into the future without issue, and their technology persisted in perfect working condition. They are the ONLY faction in 40K to have ever actually achieved their full goals. They're playing New Game+. They are the ultimate end state of the setting and hard counter everything that exists. Their technology is so indescribable and unknowable that it appears as magic."
-----------------
Newcrons lore: "Necrontyr lives sucked so they tried to fix it and failed, uh, they left but their lives still sucked because...um, reasons, and then they sucked so much that they all started trying to kill each other in a second massive failure. Then they met the Old Ones, tried to kill them, and sucked so hard that they failed a third time. Then they immediately went into a civil war, failing at life a fourth time. Then they met the Deceiver and became Necrons, but they were very sad about it. Then they mostly beat up the Old Ones, although they had a very difficult time doing so and they were heavily massacred by attempting it.
After this they killed the C'tan, offscreen, with weapons so powerful that they were never used or mentioned again. This resulted in a heavy massacre of what small number of them remained.
After this they fled in terror from the Eldar because they were so beat up. They didn't beat the Eldar before killing the C'tan offscreen because...uh, but well, so then they decided to stop fighting or defending themselves and just sleep their enemies to death. The Eldar then proceeded to blow up most of the tombs that were now not defending themselves whatsoever, resulting in yet another massacre of the Necrons in a tiny period of time. THEN, what handful the Eldar couldn't find entirely failed to predict any astronomical movements whatsoever. Most were destroyed, resulting in a FOURTH massacre of their numbers with zero replenishment, and what teeny-tiny handful remained failed wildly because their tech was far too poor to attempt this.
Now what tiny scant remains of them persist are led by wacky slapstick cartoon characters, and everything they have is crumbling, falling apart, and failing on every level. Their numbers are miniscule, and their technology is so shattered and worthless that the AdMech even casually outclass it on a whim. They require a nonstop flow of liquid coolant to every part of their body or they shut down in seconds. They require constant repairs at all times using physical scarabs and beams and most can't ever actually repair or even really be salvaged at all. If they want to even attempt their hallmark reanimation they require a specific reanimation ship directly overhead their location or it doesn't work and they just perma-die if killed, and this can also fail if they just get punched really hard."
HOWEVER
All of this is a dramatic upgrade, I am assured, because they are precisely what ageless aliens should be: human and relatable.
to be fair, there is some badass factor in newcrons having KILLED THEIR GODS and now using them to power up their stuff instead of just serving them, which is what chaos already does. Still yeah they lost a lot of their mystery, no longer being implacable death machines but instead a collection of geriatrics with varying levels of mental illnesses. It does bring more variety into the faction and more to work with for stories, and also more for players to come up with an interesting background for their own force... but in the process, they went from a nigh unknowable threat to something too close to orks, unsure if it wants to be this unstoppable threat... or just silly and funny instead.
They did not win..the Eldar defeated their super weapons turned dark and terrible gods and terrible cost to their species ( the Eldar )
@@thorveim1174 Sure, I agree with that in principle, but following that logic, Tyranids should have all kinds of individuals with complete individuality. Otherwise they aren't human and relatable enough, and it's impossible for there to be stories about them and it's impossible for players to come up with backgrounds for their own forces.
It's not true, it's just catering to people with a poor imagination who lack the ability to conceptualize the fact that there are people and things different from themselves...AKA Redditors..
@@Ankhtowe its not so much about them being human, and more about them having variety within the faction itself. As for the nid thing, do note that basically nothing is written with them as the protagonists... Fully agree changing them the same way necrons did would kill the faction completely, but yeah they dont lend themselves well to being anything else than the bad guy of the week because once you have talked about nids once, you basically talked about all of them already.
Necrons meanwhile went from all being silent clankers to a race with various factions with differing goals and motives... Some of which possibly acting the exact same way as their 3rd edition counterpart. That does leave far more space for stories to happen that arent a copy/paste of eachother. Now is it worth the sacrifice of what 3rd edition necrons were? I guess thats up to each individual player, but seeing how popular some characters that newcrons allowed to exist are (Trazyn would not be able to exist under 3rd edition lore), its hard to argue it was a completely bad move, especially as oldcrons can still exist within the newcrons. However i will always miss the 3rd ed ones regardless
@@thorveim1174 "Popular = good" is a poor argument though. No one actually likes Trazyn for example, they like the meme version of Trazyn they read about in a comedy book which, by the way, also established that Newcrons can be choked to death. That's a thing that happens in that same book. Far too many people get the entirety of their lore knowledge from memes, which is why the best thing TTS ever did for Warhammer was die. As such, it is very very easy to argue that it was a bad move. Not for the company, but for the integrity of the setting certainly.
There's a reason that "may your hobby hit mainstream audiences" is such a strong curse.
Incidentally, GW has also been peppering several books now with plot hooks that Tyranids are trying to seek out and "infest", to use the Zerg term, individuals. They're definitely planning on making their own Kerrigan counterpart.
Furthermore, Necrons didn't go from an entirely silent clanker race to what they are now. They were that *from a human perspective*. Not from their own, and that's the thing of it. You know they have their own language, their own society, their own structure, and you aren't a part of it. You cannot comprehend it, you will never comprehend it, you will always be inferior to it. The incomprehensibility IS the character. If you (the colloquial "you") need to come down and tell you how you're allowed to behave and imagine then that's your own failing. Your own weakness.
Finally, as far as the Nids being protagonists are concerned, good. The Imperium are the good guys of the setting anyway.
I'm here in the comments before people get angry at you for criticizing modern 40k, o7 Sir Nellop.
6:37 Necron pyramid scheme.
Edit: 9:13 EMOTIONAL DAMAGE
🤝dw I am used to this at this point or else I wouldnt make this type of content in teh first place.
@@TheNellop Aye, Keep on keeping on mah gewd man! 🤝
I dunno Ive seen some of the commentshere and most of them are more respectfully disagreeing and sharing their preferences more than anything.
@fastrunisnotfast 👆 This comment is so naïve that its so adorable to see.
It would have been better if they had gone full throttle into the horror elements of Necrons and turned them into an HR Geiger race of terror beings but instead of biomech p*rn they would have been a combination of brutal calculus and the unknowable, soul-eating void. What a missed opportunity
Having always found "eldritch horror" to be somewhat ludicrous even at the best of times, I'm not sure which delivers more _schadenfreude:_ Oldcron purists getting their Necrodermis panties in a bunch or Nid-lover meltdowns...🤔
I can't watch this because of the excessive clip insertion.
I Forgive you my man.
The way I see it the silent silver tide is still here and present but just not the focus. We just look to the more human/conscious necrons in books because they make more compelling main characters.
It would be funny if the device was not actually destroyed and its what the digganobz used to control the necrons
I do think that the newcrons still have some potential for the DoW variety… but I do agree they went overboard with Necron character. Can’t say I hate some of the new ideas, but fuck then killing C’tan is just… dumb.
That’s a pretty good video, but I like the change of the necron’s lore. I’m okay with it humanizing them more because there are going to be people playing the necrons on the table. If I play necrons, I want there to be good deep lore to pull from beyond “they’re scary robots”
All the human factions get endless lore, xenos players should get that too
I much prefer the classic Necrons to Matt Wards Retcrons..
However there is literally no.reason we cant have both.
Personally adored the lore in the 10th edition codex. I use a notebook or printed lists for actual games, I have a codex to ponder over
sadly inevitable
once something niche goes to mainstream or close to mainstream
it is usually looses it original foothold
that original identity that it once had
for reason being to appeal to masses u have to make it more available to them
more understandable
and that where all the magic of unknown gets cutoff
Nice video!
I dont remember where the C'tan were omniscient
They are very powerful beings, they represent a thing of the universe.
But they wouldnt know what the silent king was machinating behind their backs while they were fighting each other
I’ve been playing since the end of fourth and I’ve got to disagree. I own the old necron codex and I love the short stories but there’s very little substance. I think you’re just being a bit of a contrarian. It’s still grimdark. I see your point on primaris marines in the other video mentioned here but I think there’s some dunning Krueger effect going on here, where you’re overestimating how much you actually know. I hate the funko pops, Amazon shows, and lifestyle brand deals Warhammer is trying to do now too, but the lore is still the best part of Warhammer. This is just someone longing for something they have no experience of.
very different lore and charactetization for pre & post 5e necrons, so definitely makes sense some people prefer one or the other. I'm a bigger fan of the newer 'space tomb kings' version myself, with more distinct personalities and feuding dynasties and ctan torn apart and made into batteries by the people they tried to subjugate and what have you.
5th was way better.
In terms of reasons I named a lot of them but TH-cam did its thing so it disappeared and I am not in the mood to check everything word by word, so I will just provide a few highlights of it.
3rd was cliché, stagnant with no intresting characters and bound to get old way too fast.
5th was basically the Necrons true awakening from their slumber as an interesting faction. Some actual lore behind their culture, intresting characters (Trazyn & Orikan alone are the best duo in the galaxy), The story of the war in heaven made plenty more sense than the 3rd and it gave them some of the coolest units in the game.
Old necrons are borig, deal with it
"Bori-n-g"
You lost
Man this is the most old guard thing i have seen in a while.
Necrons now have outright the best characters in the setting, the best 40k book written so far, they are awesome antitheist godkillers now. The concept that the individual dynasties care more about Fighting eachother than the other factions is so arrogant i love it.
The Silent king never Wanted to return.
As to grimdark, they now have to endure horrendous psyhological conditions which is a flaw that elevates their characters to such a high degree.
...
Sidenote 5th ed was also the eddition tyranids got done cooking: Finalising their design and lore basis.
There would have been Way to much overlab Theme wise if necrons stayed devoid of character.
Get some wine, this is the time of 5th edition. You will not be baptized. You bad boys will not be taking any action against the enemy.
Your welcome, I am the 1000 subscriber
love your videos btw
It may actually be that the control device may not have that much control over the better necrons. Perhaps the device held control over all immortals and warriors but not nobility or crypteks. I can see the most of the nobility just going along with the Silent King on every matter he wants done in case they get a turn in using said device but necrons do live forever. So he does the next best thing and just breaks it because only he should be the one to use it.
Let's be honest, having two factions that just want to erase all life from the galaxy would be boring. Oldcrons were cool and scary, sure, but newcrons are great. Diversity in motivation and goals makes for a more dynamic and interesting faction to follow in narratives.
And let's not kid ourselves, if necrons remained written as cosmic horror, they would just get their asses handed to them even more often than they do now. Why? Because faceless adversaries are perfect cannon fodder for bolter prawn novels about astartes kicking ass.
Just look at the tyranids, again. When they were introduced they were, to quote a Magos of the Mechanicus "DEATH!!! BY THE MACHINE GOD!!! DEATH!!!" They threatened Ultramar and wiped out the Ultramarines 1st company, most of the chapter and Marneus Calgar got Black Knighted by the Hive Lord. I'll repeat myself. They almost destroyed the Ultramarines, the Poster Boys of the Poster Boys. An inquisitor went insane and started blowing up worlds en masse because he thought it was the only way to stop them, to starve them. And though he was excommunicated, no one ever said he was wrong.
Now look at Tyranids in modern 40K. They are an afterthought at best in most narratives because they don't make for compelling villains or even stories most of the time. Seen one planet get devoured, seen 'em all and they don't change much. Best you can do is show how different factions confront them and get cool battles and action scenes out of them.
Best we've gotten was the devastation of Baal and that was still just a retread of the Tyranid introduction with Blood Angels instead of Ultramarines. It had some cool scenes but sadly you just can't be afraid of Tyranids anymore. Not when them winning 1 campaign, eating 1 world on screen, is an event for the whole community.
Meanwhile Newcrons have easily one of the best and most reccomended Warhammer novels ever published The Infinite and The Divine. I understand why you would be pissed about losing the oldcrons since they are also the ones I first met. But it's the best thing that could happened to them.
This. The diversity and the differences is needed for the War in Warhammer. Because if people put down their differences, they might just stop fighting.
Honestly the lore was too similar to the Tyranids, now we get more interesting lore, such as Trazyn the Infinite.
As a “new hammer” fan (joined at the end of 8th) I get the oldcron idea and even like it a little more then newcron. However I do think the new lore gives much more homebrew ablility then old lore. Allows you to give character to your overlords. You may say that’s not the point of crons which is fair but I find the idea of no character to a faction to be boring, it’s why I don’t like the nids they’re just a mindless maw which has not creativity behind it
@brutalwave3800 Fair enough.
Just keep in mind, where I am coming from, trying to see what made 40k grimdark in the first place and what its defined in order to be consistent with that genre.
the more you look around and understand, the better you can enjoy.
@TheNellop oh I completely understand and agree with you. It’s much less grim dark than original but I think it’s still applicable to current 40k. It has more complexity to each side IMO now but hey, we can all agree with female custodes are a dumb retcon and that GW is retarded
i mean arent the necrons "zombies" supossed to be the mechanical horror that they were back then when they first appeared? Probably those fallen tumb worlds required more spotlight.
They are an exception devoid of any interesting lore and background, which in no way affect what is happening in the galaxy, as a result they are not able to be an adequate replacement for oldcrons (Stories and meta plots that were the basis of the old necron lore are impossible in the context of what you have described).
14:14 This is some primo gate keeping nonsense right here. XD
9:35 Random 10 seconds of anti-feminism, nothing female related on screen has anything to do with the video or what they're talking about.
8:37 because he learned of the existence of tyranids after he broke the device and gave the other necron lords their free will? Him coming back made sense because why would he just abandon his race to annihilation even though he betrayed them before?
Having a plan b or c is better with no plan at all.
Sometimes it better to let things go.
So, im not going to argue into a brick wall. That would be pointles.
Newcrons are better BECAUSE they aren't grimdark. It makes them far more unique and interesting instead of just hur-dur kill everything.
Also how dare you slander the infinite and the divine
GW will say otherwise even with space marine 2.
I started playing Necrons in whatever edition they got their first codex. It was decades ago, I dont remember. Anyway I loved that they were the incomprehensible aliens with the goal of eradicating biological life in the galaxy. It made sense. While I do enjoy (some) of the modern lore, mostly around Trayzn, they have lost a lot of what drew me to them. I agree that WH40k has lost the grimdark. However after the last 10 years of watching every show, game, or franchise that I liked get fucking sacrificed at the altar of DEI-conformity, the GW authors screwing the pooch on lore isnt as painful as it would otherwise be.
Im gonna be real, I like the new lore better. I prefer them humanized over the boring overdone endless evil kill cause kill for kills sake.
the 3rd/4th edition seriousness was kind of the aberration. 1e/2e was full of fun goofiness.
Forget it, most current day players haven't read a good story in their entire life, they all need the same cheesy and worn out tropes. If they can't "relate" with something, they don't like it. That's why all Black Library books are written from a human point of view, even when we see the universe through the eyes if a xeno character, because your average high school kid won't be able to understand what's happening otherwise, and intelligence wise that's GWs target audience: kids and those on the same level.
Oh no, the moment u mentioned female custodes is when your true colors showed. Please return to R/HorusGalaxy and join the other rants about how the good old times were better.
Female Custodes/Marines are still worse than newcrons. Tomb Kings in space are better than Stormcast ripoffs.