Battle of Classic Magnum Ammo - .44 Mag VS .357 Mag SJHP
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ค. 2021
- Testing out two classic revolver loads that are old school self defense loads in .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. The .357 Magnum is a 158 gr SJHP (Semi Jacketed Hollow Point) by Magtech and the .44 Magnum is a 240 gr SJHP by Federal. Doing a ballistic gel test. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.com/search?q=gun+sam
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At 0:45 I meant to say "often used" rather than usually used. I sort of had two thoughts at once going on as i'm never scripted. What I was trying to say is 240 gr .44 Mag and 158 gr .357 Mag are what's most common in general for self defense loads, but I do know if law enforcement used a .44 Mag they often went with 180 or 210 gr and .357 Mag was often a 125 gr. But it's a number that's impossible to quantify as a lot of the .44 Mag use by law enforcement was done by Sheriff's departments scattered around. Much more difficult to figure out than lets say, figuring out that in the 80's the LAPD started making the Beretta 92 a standard option.
You sir are 100% correct. Most that chose to use a .357 do use a 125 FTX Hornady round. Very few use a .44 unless they are Game Commission or have to deal with Bear, Moose type big game….not people. Spot on sir.👍💯
If I have mags in my carry gun vs the spc. I carry the 180gr full power loads in it.
Back in the early 70s the .38 Spec. S&W model 15 was known as the Combat Masterpiece and the .357 S&W model 19 was known as the Combat Magmun.
I have a model 19-3 .357 that I wouldn't trade for anything great gun
My dad was a police officer in Oakland Ca for 37years all through the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Throughout his career he had been involved in five shootings. He carried a model 66 357 loaded with 158 half jacketed soft points for the first 20 before autoloaders took over. The results of his shootings with his 357 were all immediate stoppers. 3 died before they hit the ground and two lived but stopped immediately. Out of the 5 none over penetrated, all were stopped in the bad guys. To this day he loves his 357 and has total confidence in it, but nowadays he only carries a 9mm.
Man, you almost took an entire pack of bologna to the face! That's why I watch this channel...you have content you don't see anyplace else.
Thanks. Yeah I never noticed until editing. I thought it was funny.
@@bigsasserify Oof
He's hardcore....
@@9mmpeter255 Bologna's death charge!!!!
@@9mmpeter255 true other than my bologna has a first name....good question.
I enjoy the fact that you never seem to run out of interesting content. Fact filled and entertaining !
Anyone hear the weather forecast for today, I heard it's supposed to be showers of bologna packs particle board and a side of gong
As long as it doesn’t rain lead like Greta thurnburg said it will.
You are spot on Sam regarding the bullets. I started my law enforcement career in the late 60's and most police departments were going with the 125 gr 38 and 357 bullets. The testing done back then showed that a hollow point round did not expand unless the round was traveling at least 1200 FPS and the 158 gr bullet slowed the round down to where it did not expand consistently. By the late 70's studies showed that he 125 gr magnum had the highest one shot stop capability upwards of 96%. Hard to say what the 44 would do as it was not use enough by law enforcement to gather any statistics. I remember the FBI study they did on the 9mm. Police shootings from the early 80's to the mid 90's should that it took an average of 8 hits on a suspect to stop them.
That plate falling off was hilarious. 🤣😂🤣 i also laughed pretty hard when that bologna when flying over you head. I love plinking with the 44 magnum for just that sort of fun. That said, I can only tolerated so much of that kind of fun. Thanks again for all your efforts.
Thanks for watching!
The 44 mag is great, but I cannot control it as well as 357 magnum. In my 6-inch GP100 the hottest are not too bad but I can get sloppy with recoil anticipation. I think the 44 mag is best for hunting with big revolvers or lever guns.
Sam, you almost had lunch delivered!
Your results were pretty much what I expected but I did hope to see a bigger difference in the gel performance. Good job, thanks
Great video, thank you!
More ammo from Magtech please, that is a manufacture that we have plenty of here in Sweden, so more 9mm, 38spl and 357mag please!!
Two cartridges im really is interested in is,
Magtech 38D and 38F.
I laughed at the bologna shrapnel until he showed us the MDO board with the corner knocked off. Good reason to wear safety glasses right there.
I’m a former USAF veteran and shooter since I was 5. I’m now 55 and in the past several years I have fallen into the rabbit hole of airguns…particularly higher end PCPs ie LCS SK-19 in .22 , .25 , and .30 calibers as well as FX MK2 and M3 Impacts in the same calibers. My point is…the consistency in velocity of a powder burner compared to a PCP. WOW! What a difference. With a PCP the extreme spread of these guns is less the 8 FPS verses 50+ or more. Just mind blowing where the technology of regulated airguns has taken us and why are powder burners so variable in speed per load.? Still…anything with a trigger puts a big smile on anyone’s face especially mine so….just a word of thought and kinda a question as to why so much difference. Awesome video by the way and thank you. Always puts a smile on my face while watching. Very good times. God bless.
My brother in law passed a few years ago, when he was 55. He was retired USAF and later on national guard. He gave me the boots I wear, so I wear them!
Hey , really like that new camera angle ! Made me wish I had some 3D glasses so it would look like the bologna was coming right at me ! 😅
The 158 grain round had a reputation for being easier on the gun then lighter rounds. (Less forcing cone errosion)
Yeah, I have switched to 158 gr even in hand loads for .38 Special as there's just that bit of difference in hang time in the barrel.
I love your vids man, you are criminally underrated. I like and share and thanks for your work!
Thank you. I'm sort of in that weird category of a little too old to get excited and popular, and just not enough 5.56 and 9mm to get big lol
Both are sufficient bologna throwers but the 44 is over the top (of your head) lol! I like them both ha
Excelente video! This is the same ammo specs we have here in Brazil, solved a lot of doubts.
Good test! I hit the like button exactly while I was laughing at the bologna pack flying over your shoulder.
Man you see and feel the power of the .44 mag through this video! Haha awesome video Sam as always!!👍🏻👍🏻
It’d be interesting to see some of the various other legacy type Magtech offerings but I’m sure you’ve already got enough on your plate. Keep up the great content!
Thanks for watching. I have seen stuff like their .38+P SJHP ammo. If i'm not mistaken they have one in 158 gr with this same bullet and nickel cases. Very interesting as no one has a load like that anymore.
@@GunSam I used to carry the old FBI load, 158gr. LSWCHP in my SP101. I think you've tested that one already?
Great job and info Sam 👍👍.
Thank you.
Thanks for sharing. Always interesting and informative videos. Take care.
Thank you.
You're right - I loved seeing the 44mag knock the plate to the ground! 👍
Highly entertaining focused explosions, Sam! Thanks again for making me glad that I own a 44! Now I need a 357. 😳
Thanks for watching. A .357 Mag is really in so many respects, better. It's top end power rivals lower end .44 Mag but the practical use of shooting hundreds of rounds of .38 Special in a .357 Mag is hard to beat.
Interesting stuff. I’m a new shooter and started totally as a semiautomatic pistol guy mostly 9mm. Then I purchased a Kimber K6S DASA 2” barrel and become fascinated with wheel guns. I looked the other day at a Ruger Alaskan Redhawk .44 Magnum with a 2.5” barrel. Beautiful pistol. I think for now I’ll stick with the .357 as it’s all I can handle and more 😊
Great review and I like your bologna test because at the range my 357 just makes a hole in the target like a 9mm I can see little difference other than recoil. Also, very much appreciated your explanation of grains and how they impact shooting. Should be obvious but it’s not at least it wasn’t to me as ammo is still hard to find and I haven’t shot a lotta different grains yet. Great review and much appreciated.
Excellent video!
Thank you very much!
lol watching that bologna fly in slo mo is too damn funny
i don't know why!
Self-defense from a 44 magnum for four legged predators use the 240 grain jacketed hollow point bullet. For two legged predator defense the 180 grain or 210 grain bullets. Less weight less penetration.
New to the channel. So far, enjoying the content. Keep it up. 👍
Love the way the .44 smacks the plate!
Thank you soooo much for posting this. This is just what I needed to get my weekend off to a rousing start! That precise Magtech load in .357 mag is what I bought from Target Sports right at the beginning of the insanity when I could begin to get a better read on what was coming around the bend. I got the ammo shortage right but was completely caught short on the toilet paper hoarding.
You know, baloney packs may not be FBI protocol as stated but, I'm tending to think that maybe it should be. Lol.
My takeaway: If one can handle the additional recoil of the .44 magnum, they are well served and it should do quite well. However, if one is more comfortable with the .357 magnum, they are also well served and should be confident in what one has. Although, as you pointed out, ammo selection is so very important.
Down side of my .44 magnum fascination is that it costs a lot more (in ammo and Ibuprofen - heh) for me to practice.
Like like your comment. Almost sounds exactly like something the apostle Paul would have written.
@@GunSam - wow! There is no higher praise.
Now I really liked this video! Real world loads. The 44's energy at impact is what makes this round so effective. I love my short barreled 357 and I have a 6 1/2 inch barrel in 357. I dont have a short barreled 44 but a 7 1/2. The 240 gr with the long barrel is a formidable weapon for just about any thing walking. The 44 will remove legs and arms from a living target
Thank you for the time and cost you put into making your videos. They're very good. It would be interesting to test the 44 magnum through different barrel lengths. Also compare the S&W model 69 to the model 629s. Not only personal defense loads but hunting too.
With comparing models, I left out the model 29. Can't leave out Dirty Harry.
out of a .357 magnum with a 4 inch barrel, Any old sjhp or probably even lead round nose will be just fine for defense. Obviously I don't want fmj, but i'm not very picky about ammo selection for that barrel length and caliber. Pretty much almost anything will get the job done. I am much more critical and choosy however when it comes to smaller calibers like 9mm, .38 special, .380, or .32 h&r magnum.
SJHP = great for self defense, that 357 mag magtech was kind weak, 1300 fps out of a 4 inch is the sweet spot for 158 grain 357 mag...
Nice shooting with that .357. ... I need to practice more.
Time for Gun Sam to go out and buy a .41 Magnum so we can find out just how "the magnum in the middle" compares.
Eh, telling someone it's time to spend a grand for 3 ammo types is like, uh, nah.
Wow! .44 really sends the HURT down range, love it! .357 is my favorite overall round because it's always been the "ass kicker" in my family. Grandpa's favorite, = my fav. Can't help it Sam, gotta tell you about the new member of my collection. Just bought a Sig Sauer SP2022 9mm yesterday! Got it for $579. Comes with those sweet Sig night sights, 2 magazines. Interchangeable backstraps sold separately now. Thanks for the great magnum review!
Looks like bologna flew to the other side of the river after .44.:).
Yep love it brother!! I'll carry one of each!! Lol but anyhow the same man invented both rounds! I'm a 44 man. But then my city carry gun is a 45acp. Excellent video again!!😎🔫👍
Thanks!
👍 just run what you have. Knowing the limitations.
Stucked cases with 44 mag because S&W uses short ejector rod from 2,75" version of 69 revolver. That is pity.
Fun video, you're quickly becoming one of my top 5 gunTubers! Just need a pinch more humor where possible to keep the episodes from feeling too cut & dry, IMO.
The walk out to reset the gong really put that shot in perspective. That's a long shot at a pretty small target for a four inch pistol.
Been deer hunting with 44 mags and 357s for years. Terminal performance for both is the same, they drop immediately. Slow moving big bores hit like a ton of bricks.
That’s why we love the .44 magnum.
The 44 magnum makes a versatile firearm. Hardcast gas-check clad bullet or flat point solid copper face bullet is maximum penetration. Jacketed hollow point bullets expand and reduce penetration but transfer more stored momentum on the target. Ideal versatility.
The model 69 Combat magnum with the L frame and 5 round cylinder makes a thinner carry due to 5 rounds versus 6 round width of the cylinder. Beveled front of the cylinder on the 69 is a great touch. Tasteful porting by Mag-na-port with a quad ported profile like I have on my model 329PD and that would be both an all around hunting and self-defense class of revolver. And ball bearing detent on the crane is a great design addition.
Awesome video, Sam! I wonder if anyone has ever tested the likelihood on staying on target for the second and subsequent rounds, after the deafening roar of those magnum round reports (in real world situations where you are NOT wearing hearing protection)? I'm sure it's painful to the ear, disorienting, and maximizes the potential for flinch. Doing it inside a structure (a small room or even a large one) would certainly seem to amplify these negative characteristics of firing magnum loads. (NOTE: I'm definitely NOT suggesting that you do this. It's way too dangerous to test. However, if someone used an accurate sound meter that would be cool.)
Did you see this .. start @ 10:30 not 100% the same but close = bigger is not always better th-cam.com/video/iHGZRC5GQoQ/w-d-xo.html
Thank you for your videos Gun Sam. Since you make these kind of tests, I suggest firing auto pistols with different SPRING TENSIONS, fundamentally in blow back pistols, for example a factory spring and another spring with an extra turn or two. In 22s and .380s, there¨s a difference in velocity.
Major concussion with 44magnum. Would cause hearing damage indoors, yet so would 357. Both loads are great for mountain protection, especially when in combo with a rifle in same caliber. Can use 38 special +p and 44 special for in town use of the revolver.
Both magnum rounds are so much fun through a rifle!
Great video again those magnums must hurt with your arthritis
Both are definitely Bolonga smacking rounds for sure. Excellent testing and shooting. Would use either one. I would to see those Zeta 6 speed loaders that showed us before in one of these tests. Good choices to use. Great job Sam!!!♠️☯️🎩
thank you.
@@GunSam you're welcome
Agreed on comments and follow up shots...hot 125 no problem hot 158s on the edge and hurt a bit so maybe as reloads or if entering lions tigers and bears territory. Not in Alaska then no need for .44 mag though 10mm is a nice balance for all predators
Yeah. A lot of people question a gun like this. When I mention that I was in the market for a 4" .44 Special, it makes more sense. This is a great .44 Special revolver than can chamber .44 Mag.
Were waiting on the Wolfman to wield the 44 like you do the 357 lol...
You guys keep up the good work👍
357 mag 158 grain Ben hard to find .I just got a box of that mag tech .I'm looking forward to the back blast.i don't have a 44 mag yet .I'm into the revolvers lately.
Awsome test. Sam must took it to the face . 44mag what I would carry in big bear county. Put for normal carry I say 357mag I'd perfect good Enough
Sam, I remember back in the day I talked to some FBI agents who said they did not go along with the idea of controlling penetration. Reason is, police officers miss up to 80% of their shots in a gun fight. Over penetration is pretty much a moot point since the round is going to go where it goes. I think that that when you attempt to make bullets go only so far in a target, you are limiting the bullet and it's ability to do what you need it to do. Give me the hottest 357 round for self defense.
Over penetration is like the Vietnam War, either go in for a win or go the other way.
Cool vid again.
The fiberboard tells something the bare gelatin doesn't.
Excellent presentation! That particular 44 load is, IMO, too much for social work. If that same 240 grain bullet was dialed back to around 950-1000fps, that would be just about perfect. Your channel is awesome.
Thanks!
It might be interesting to compare the sjhp loads to the soft point loads and compare the hydrostatic damage and penetration. I'm mostly curious because I feel like people underestimate the old school soft point and I get good medium expansion with them in 158 gr. 357, whereas the hollow points can be more fickle. One big difference is that the soft point tends to shed more material so you get less weight retention.
Also, that magtek seemed a little weak for a carry load. I do recommend fiochi ammo if you can find it (another good one to test) as it seems full powered in the magnums.
.44 Magnum looking good!
Great video. As always can’t go wrong with magnum revolvers. What’s your opinion on 41 magnum?
Thanks. While I have never fired one, my opinion is there's probably little use now days. A hot .357 or weak .44 mag cover the energy, and with the new popularity in 10mm revolvers, it makes more sense to go with 10mm over .41 mag seeing that the energy would be about the same and ammo more available.
@@GunSam 10mm revolver would also be better than 41 magnum because there are more .400 diameter bullet choices than .410 diameter.
Hey Sam - Which has the more penetration? A .223 or a hard cast 10mm? Since the .223 tumbles my guess would be the 10mm. Maybe you could test this out? Also, How much more velocity do you get by shooting with a suppressor?
I do not own any .223's nor do I have a ton of experience with them. But the limited experience I do have says that if you shoot something like a large animal, the 10mm will penetrate more as really any rifle round going double the speed of sound will more or less explode against bone. Now if we are talking something like tree limbs or car bodies, that .223 will outperform passing through stuff like that.
I haven’t been able to see all of your videos yet, but have you ever put .38 +P up against .44 special?
Which is why I’ll stick with my Model 10 38 Spl Golden Sabre JHP’s for my house gun. Holy Overpenetration, Batman.
Golden Saber .38's are fine, but the .357's are not as they will creep from the cases as neither are roll crimped.
Hey Sam you think you'll ever run any rifles rounds thru the jug or not?
maybe someday. I have a 30-30
Nothing is more fierce than a wounded baloney pack.
My next revolver is a .44 Magnum, mainly to match my Marlin .44 Magnum lever gun.
YEP !!!
I don’t know why, but I’m really drawn to revolvers. I love the double and single action options. I love that you don’t have to worry about faulty magazines or ftf, fte, stovepipes, etc. I also find it so much more satisfying to load the cylinder as opposed to a magazine. It’s almost therapeutic.
Do revolvers have issues that aren’t talked about often? Do cheaper revolvers like Taurus have issues with timing? Is it necessary to just stick with Smith and Wesson, Ruger, or Colt?
In my experience, S&W and Ruger have no issues. Taurus does. There's always issues with Taurus. Stuff like the cylinder won't lock properly so the cylinder free spins and keeps striking the same round. I have a couple Taurus revolvers, yeah the timing can go bad faster on Taurus in my opinion. If you ask about Taurus specifically, you can possibly do fine with them, but what you pay for with S&W and Ruger is fit & finish. People say that a lot more or less referring to looks, but no, FIT is the word. Often times the internals of Taurus are gritty as it's just forged and left rough, the cylinder screws often don't have locktite, stuff like that. If you get a Taurus, the fit fixes are cheap, just takes some oil, lots of dryfire, stuff like that, they can be good. S&W you pay twice as much but it's sort of worth it. My 2 cents is, if you want a first revolver and if it's for defense, 100% get a S&W or Ruger. If you are getting a 2nd, 3rd or 4th revolver, than go ahead and get the Taurus and work out the fit for awhile.
I'd like to see a comparison between a .44 Magnum Vs 20 gauge Magnum slug (shotgun) to measure; comfort, accuracy, recovery time between shots, and damage.
Nice! I wish I had a second 44 Magnum. Maybe one of the scandium ones! LOL.
Oh yes! I mean NO.
@@GunSam How bad can the recoil be?
@@Fudmottin Probably with common ammo, about like this model 69...when I was using that Mono Metal ammo. Looking at the recoil calculators, dropping from like 37 oz to 28 oz or whatever those other models are, you go from 17 to 25 ft lbs recoil energy. For reference a full size .357 is 9 ft lbs and a full size 9mm is 5 ft lbs. Paul Harrell would say, adding 8 ft lbs in recoil energy, is a LOT more.
@@GunSam So would I. A compensated barrel would probably be a must have.
A friend at the range has a Ruger Blackhawk in 44 magnum
He’s let me shoot it a couple of times, and I dunno why but it’s a laser beam. The gun just wants to shoot straight
I don’t know, but if all 44 magnums shoot that good I want one
When you almost meet your meat target.
The old school 357 has always worked well. Hard to go wrong. The 44 is more of a niche item for those concerned about bear defense, etc. Good point about the practicality of lighter weight bullets. I wonder if anyone makes a hard cast load of say 200 or 210 grains at 1100-1200 fps for animal defense? That is all the velocity you would need, and the recoil would be noticeably less. Just my thought.
The .44 mag had the bologna shower and gong kill. Obviously a beast of a round. The .357 mag was devastating as well. Both rounds live up to their reputation. In that respect, the downsides were true as well. Both rounds over penetrated a little and recoil was pretty stout. Not enough to discount the advantages, though. I agree that the 180 grain is a better option for the .44 and I personally use the 125 grain in my .357s.
Great demonstration. Better than Paul Harrel!
Thank you. Paul has good stuff though, but I have the opportunity to edit all my own work, so it looks sort of neat.
In another video, the 44 mags would come back to be resold with just 6 rounds missing out of the box. Then Dirty Harry, then it was a must have.
Not being top gun in a gun fight is going to hurt more than your wrist or your feelings.
My kinda test!!
You ever check out a guy called Target Suite? He does some revolvers but mostly lever action. You guys have some things in common. He loves 44 magnums. You both deserve more subs. But most important of all Hard Cast bullets.
I will have to check him out.
Well ... I must say... Magtech 357 is a bit anemic...
My reload 158grs Sierra JHC from Ruger 3" goes 1200+ ft/s and from 4" goes 1250-1270 ft/s .
I don t know which powder they use but ...this is anemic.
I would stay with 158grs Hydra Shock, concerning Factory ammo.
Clear Balistic block ... I think is not good.
Old "yellow one,which whose used by "tnoutdoors9" is much better choice.
Underwood Gold Dot 158's do 1325 out of my 3" SP101; 125's do 1550!
magtech ammo is pretty weak and has a weird smell after shooting, but its pretty clean and better then Tula ammo at least. Good for practice. I like their .38 metal jacketed loads most.
@@joshuabriggs7114 That s a strong cartidge.
I tested 158grs Gold Dot from my Ruger, it "flyed" 1200ft/s and it didin t open when it hit wild boar.
Just past thru and stayed like new.
So,it need higher velocity.
That s why I changed to Sierra 158grs JHC.
It does open on 1200 ft/s and penetrate enough to stop wild boar when you hit it in the head7neck area.
Is there a chance to see a review of Winchester white box 125gr 38 +p sjhp vs Remington Green & white box 125gr 38 +p sjhp? In a snub and service sized barrels? And also in .357 mag versions of the the boxes.
I haven't seen that in awhile. Now I did have that same .38 ammo in the Super-X which is identical except nickel plated brass. I ran tests on it way back in the day in just jugs, but I do not have that ammo anymore. But this is what I got. Sorry for not being good content. th-cam.com/video/cFozv1d9CFY/w-d-xo.html
Time to wear a cup during these tests 🤪 Danger Close to the boys🤣
The .357 125gr JHP was designed for self defense... It has a 97% one shot kill rate... That's why it's in my S&W 686-3... Sitting right next to me... The 158gr. is more for small game hunting...
Once again, the 44 Magnum is bad azz, even though the 357 Magnum is no slouch.
Definitely a drastically difference in price that I've seen between the 2
I haven't even seen 357mag ammo in a year - have picked up a few hundred rounds of 44mag when I could, so price comparison isn't even a consideration any more, sadly.
Would hard cast bullets penetrate farther you think?
assuming the power, bullet weight and bullet shape it the same, yes a hard cast will penetrate most things more as it deforms less, keeping it's frontal area as small as possible, making it penetrate deeper.
I think this video demonstrates why 357mag is so versatile, or 38 special in most every case.
But I do like big bore. Just not a fan of 44 magnum as much as I am with the flexible, venerable 45 colt (or 45acp) or the hotter stuff such as 454 Casull (or 460 Rowland). Just don't find the need for anything else in handguns. I've found 44magnum (used to own and shoot) to be quite stiff and snappy in recoil. Unpleasant compared to a pretty stout 45 colt for instance.
Pistol caliber carbines are something else, and rifles are again something else.
You almost got meat slapped. That would have been a new one
I have got it before, just not face bitch slapped by it. Still would pale in comparison to the .38 caliber bullet I took to the forehead that bounced off a tree.
@@GunSam been hit by a .45 in my leg. Luckily had my keys there. Bounced off a bowling pin
Were gona get notice soon of balogna shortage 😳🤣✌👍💥
👍
1st beaches!
Yeah! The critters get lunch today!.
And yes, I Love That!. Yahoo!
I never went for the 44 but the 357 is my best # & target loads are lots easier.
If it's good enough for dirty Harry it's good enough for me
Thank you for comparing. I noticed the FPE you recorded was nearing double for the 44mag and the baloney went sailing above your head & your gong spun so hard that it fell to the ground. One, well placed 44 is better than a number of 357 that fail to penetrate. The 357 has trouble, like the 10mm, penetrating a bear's skull, unlike the 44 mag, which is a legit backup. My friends Colt Python 357mag felt like a loud popgun, compared to the thousands of rounds through my 44 Ruger Redhawk 7 1/2". Gel lack much, but look at the meat targets below: Revolver & rifle.
th-cam.com/video/MjxryJ9FKVA/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/Rp6k3ES1mKE/w-d-xo.html
where are you buying your ammo? I had a model 69 like this one on the video. I sold it, I kick myself every time I see one........
All online pretty much. Midway USA, Buffalo Bore, I bought this load directly from Federal's website, but they run about 3 weeks behind so it takes 3 weeks to get your order.