My comment isn't here to spread hate. Theres decent info in here that can apply to characters in a similar scenario to Greninjas, where he both gets out framed and has a poor OOS game. Also, if you want to skip the parts I agree with, just go past the big gap between these two mini essays. Jump is a good option if your jump height is both better than Fox's and doesn't get caught by either up air or fair. Greninja is privileged with this massive jump height and it is the only reason I don't consider the matchup a +2 for Fox. If your jump height is the same, or lower than Fox's though, try to mix up your options, because a jump is guranteed to be punished hard by pretty much every Aerial he has. Downtilt advice is also good. Limiting what a Fox can do with it literally saves you from eating 40-50%, so yeah, please DI away from it when you can. The advice on techchasing is generally good. Nothing to say about it other than the info there is true. Same goes for up air. Just di away from platforms and accept the damage you take from Fox, since up air chains are the truest combo he has. There are two points I'd like to make about this guide. One is that advice against Dash attack is generally fake against a good Fox player. Its not a combo starter at low percents against most of the cast, its an option in the mid percent range that either straight up true combos or forces you to pick a fast defensive option like airdodge. You know your playing against either a Fox that's either just plain bad, or one that is auto piloting if they dash attack before its limited combo window. Also, when a Fox lands a dash attack and they know it won't combo correctly. Shield is the only option that they should be going for, since depending on percent a parry can bail a Fox out from getting hit by aerials even as fast as Yoshi's Nair. If you do get hit by it and you have 10-30 percent on you, and you are also aware that your hit is likely to be shielded. It's worth considering going down for a grab as a mix up instead of mashing an Aerial. If you grab their shield instead, that's guaranteed damage, and well earned stage control. Also, if your hit isn't parried your move needs to be -5 or lower on shield to safely pressure Fox's shield and avoid an incoming Dair, or you need to be so small Fox can't foot stool oos up b you. Secondly. 0:59 was jab buffered in this clip during the nair? Even if you clanked against the FAF of Fox's up tilt, then if the Fox chooses jab instead of uptilt here Greninja loses the interaction. Since the 1 frame advantage Fox has over Greninja's jab is enough to win this exchange. Also, this means that this 0:55 downtilt was likely untrue, and would have also lost to jab. I specify the FAF of Fox's Uptilt because it looks like you clanked against the 2nd frame of the move. This implied that Fox had a 1 frame advantage in this clip This means your optimal choice would be to buffer shield, since it bridges the 1 frame of advantage Fox has over your jab and comes out just in time to block the jab. That means the scenario ends up being a 50/50 if both players are aware of this fact. Do you predict the jab and shield just to get grabbed, or do you predict the fox to grab, then spot dodge just to get jabbed anyways? To criticize my own point here, this idea only works if the late nair is landed near the ground. If it isn't fast falled properly punishing it hard is pretty easy. But fast falling nair is more rewarding than choosing not to anyways, so you have to react to the non fast falled nairs when you get fed them as soon as you see it. Anyways. Ultimately this long winded discussion on a small interaction has inspired me to do my own labbing to see who beats jab after late nair consistently. So I can shield against those characters instead of jabbing and avoid taking unnecessary damage. Thanks for sharing. Evolving the meta where we can is slow progress, but its always good nonetheless. Also, most people aren't that great against Fox and just shield all game not knowing Fox has a good shield pressure game. Again, no hate here. Just putting providing my perspective as a Fox main.
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As a casual smash bros player I can confirm that all of this information is true
My comment isn't here to spread hate. Theres decent info in here that can apply to characters in a similar scenario to Greninjas, where he both gets out framed and has a poor OOS game.
Also, if you want to skip the parts I agree with, just go past the big gap between these two mini essays.
Jump is a good option if your jump height is both better than Fox's and doesn't get caught by either up air or fair. Greninja is privileged with this massive jump height and it is the only reason I don't consider the matchup a +2 for Fox. If your jump height is the same, or lower than Fox's though, try to mix up your options, because a jump is guranteed to be punished hard by pretty much every Aerial he has.
Downtilt advice is also good. Limiting what a Fox can do with it literally saves you from eating 40-50%, so yeah, please DI away from it when you can.
The advice on techchasing is generally good. Nothing to say about it other than the info there is true.
Same goes for up air. Just di away from platforms and accept the damage you take from Fox, since up air chains are the truest combo he has.
There are two points I'd like to make about this guide.
One is that advice against Dash attack is generally fake against a good Fox player. Its not a combo starter at low percents against most of the cast, its an option in the mid percent range that either straight up true combos or forces you to pick a fast defensive option like airdodge. You know your playing against either a Fox that's either just plain bad, or one that is auto piloting if they dash attack before its limited combo window.
Also, when a Fox lands a dash attack and they know it won't combo correctly. Shield is the only option that they should be going for, since depending on percent a parry can bail a Fox out from getting hit by aerials even as fast as Yoshi's Nair. If you do get hit by it and you have 10-30 percent on you, and you are also aware that your hit is likely to be shielded. It's worth considering going down for a grab as a mix up instead of mashing an Aerial. If you grab their shield instead, that's guaranteed damage, and well earned stage control. Also, if your hit isn't parried your move needs to be -5 or lower on shield to safely pressure Fox's shield and avoid an incoming Dair, or you need to be so small Fox can't foot stool oos up b you.
Secondly. 0:59 was jab buffered in this clip during the nair? Even if you clanked against the FAF of Fox's up tilt, then if the Fox chooses jab instead of uptilt here Greninja loses the interaction. Since the 1 frame advantage Fox has over Greninja's jab is enough to win this exchange. Also, this means that this 0:55 downtilt was likely untrue, and would have also lost to jab.
I specify the FAF of Fox's Uptilt because it looks like you clanked against the 2nd frame of the move. This implied that Fox had a 1 frame advantage in this clip
This means your optimal choice would be to buffer shield, since it bridges the 1 frame of advantage Fox has over your jab and comes out just in time to block the jab.
That means the scenario ends up being a 50/50 if both players are aware of this fact. Do you predict the jab and shield just to get grabbed, or do you predict the fox to grab, then spot dodge just to get jabbed anyways?
To criticize my own point here, this idea only works if the late nair is landed near the ground. If it isn't fast falled properly punishing it hard is pretty easy. But fast falling nair is more rewarding than choosing not to anyways, so you have to react to the non fast falled nairs when you get fed them as soon as you see it.
Anyways. Ultimately this long winded discussion on a small interaction has inspired me to do my own labbing to see who beats jab after late nair consistently. So I can shield against those characters instead of jabbing and avoid taking unnecessary damage.
Thanks for sharing. Evolving the meta where we can is slow progress, but its always good nonetheless. Also, most people aren't that great against Fox and just shield all game not knowing Fox has a good shield pressure game. Again, no hate here. Just putting providing my perspective as a Fox main.