My understanding is that closed loop adds/removes fuel based on temp, elevation, etc but does not change the values in your base fuel table. The learn feature is going to change the values in your main fuel table over time to try and meet your desired AFR. I would tune the main fuel table with closed loop and learn both disabled. Then enable the learn feature drive around for a while and let it make any additional adjustments and then disable the learn feature and enable the closed loop function.
Main take away is keep a second tune with Learn and Closed loop disabled loaded on the handheld. Just in case. save the current tune and flash the backup in the event of a failure. Thanks for the info.
So I did find a NTK part number for O2 sensor that works with Terminator and Sniper system. Holley does not offer it, been using it for a while with no problems. NTK 24315, I personally have used it in both Sniper and Terminator. Still really good advice, just wanted to pass this on. It’s a $140 on Amazon.
What terminator you using sir? And how is it holding up? your comment is 3 yrs ago so thought i would ask im getting ready for a ls swap and would like a reliable daily
You can actually scope a Bosch when new and they have a trashy pattern. I've learned never to use Bosch O2 sensors, especially in Chrysler products. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Another thing you can do is to also lower the learn gain if you do decide to keep it on. Holley even says that lowering the learn gain to 10-30% will make the learn table populate much slower and act more as a long term fuel trim. I personally don't necessarily like the learn function on Holley ECUs because I think it alters too much of the table at once. It's even worse on the HP and Dominator when using the small 16x16 fuel table because the learn function can mess up the idle area while you are cruising.
I have done stock ecu tuning with hp tuners I understand the correct concept of tuning but I am trying to learn what all the tabs/tables do and trying to relate them to what I have already learned. Stock ecu what a pita I enjoy tunning but damn I enjoy driving it to. So far I like what I see with the Holley system Lol nothing is perfect but better than stock. I hope you keep up the video's
another alternative is to turn off learn when you are rocking closed loop, or turn off closed loop when u r rocking the learn feature. and yes alter the amount it is allowed to add, have a good AFR gauge, on each bank, if one sticks you can tell easily that way. sorry bro, just wanted to play devils advocate for a bit. saw u on matts podcast, really enjoy your vids.
Wait, the Terminator was setup to be a basic unit for standard fuel. It is using the Bosch style O2 because it’s, basic. But I think the NTK 24513 has the standard plug. Holly sells the adapter. The NTK is primarily for leaded and alcohol fuels, methanol etc.
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest I know I was just saying. I have arguments on the forms with people about not making the computer Compensat with the O2 i tell them there has to be a Error first then it corrects, some times the Error wins first too.
Great video man! I really can wait to get to the next steps on tuning! Hoever I looking for help dew to Holly is really hard to get a hold. So I have a fox with 5.0 hci and now terminator, I follow the steps on IAC, and pwm. And delivered it to right output, and my car just keeps dumping air throughout the throttle body, I replacede it and same woriking, but if its unplugged it Idles fine sometimes it fires right up and sometimes it doesn't just looking for hint mans pls any help
Great video man I went ahead and order the us to can bus cable it seems to be widely suggested plus I have been benge watching your videos just waiting for that moment it's difficult javeing really no idea where to start I've bee a mechanic for over 25 years but the only thing I know how to tune is an fpv drone lol can I ask u for suggestions on my particular setup are are you too busy I just need some basics
Recently found ur channel and I’m really enjoying ur knowledge AND ur video editing efforts! Great work and hope ur channel keeps growing!! Good luck man!!
Correct me if I’m wrong! You said use the VE table to get the engine to run at your desired AFR. The VE table is a representation of the engine’s air flow. The injector size and target air fuel are used to calculate pulse width to get the desired AFR. Once the VE table is correct (or maybe close), the AFR should also be close to “desired”. Then running closed loop and/or learn should need only small correction values as you stated. My point is If you decide some part of the target AFR table needs changing (maybe you want full throttle at 12.8 instead of 13.2 or something ) it shouldn’t affect your VE table. Having effective closed loop (with a functioning O2 sensor) should allow the ECU to do minor final corrections to hit the AFR targets. Your point is don’t let the ECU make drastic changes in case of a non-functional O2 sensor. I’m just saying getting the VE table right doesn’t affect the desired AFR, you do that with the target AFR table.
Using VE if you want to change the target afr you do not need to adjust the ve table at all. Simply adjust the target afr table and the change will take place with out closed loop having to do anything. When o2 sensors fail they usually fail to a certain value, usually all the way rich or all the way lean. So at that point the ecu will think your say 10.0 afr when you are targeting 14.0. It will keep pulling fuel trying to get to the target until it maxes out the correction amount you let it. So if your closed loop table is 50% and your learn table is 50% it’s going to pull fuel to the point the car wont run anymore because the stuck sensor will just show 10.0 regardless of what the actual air fuel ratio is
so in other words, read directions, and once it has been tuned dial back the damage the learn table can do to the tune (again like the instructions say to do) so when your o2 fails you can make it home. at least you actually took the time to try to understand the system. that is way more than most do. 🤣
You can’t run any other o2s. The o2 isn’t the problem it’s the tune. Or if the o2 is going bad completely and you have the cl and learn values too high it will throw a bunch of fuel at it if it’s failing lean which they typically do
I’m having trouble updating my terminator xmax the hand held have v4 on it somehow an ECU has v1 firmware it’s all messed up. I’ll pay someone for a sd card with v2 update
At what point can you go in and change the percentage the computer can adjust? I just got my N/A 5.3 swap done and I’m starting to drive it, wanting to get a solid tune for it.
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest what I mean is should I change those parameters in self tuning and closed loop right away or should I let it self tune a bit by driving it first?
So, Joe is the terminator x or x Max good overall aftermarket ECU or should someone just buy the dominator? Haltech is awesome but extremely overpriced..
Im new to engine work. Is there someone you know that's in Atlanta that can help set my system up the correct way. I want to learn at the same time also. I have looked at a whole lot of video's. But I don't want to mess anything up also
Yea unfortunately it’s one of those you get what you pay for type of things. The wideband i use on customers cars that holds up to leased fuel is almost 3 grand. The HP and Dominators can use a NTK sensor which will hold up 1000 times better
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Enjoying these Holley how to videos! Keep it up!
My understanding is that closed loop adds/removes fuel based on temp, elevation, etc but does not change the values in your base fuel table. The learn feature is going to change the values in your main fuel table over time to try and meet your desired AFR. I would tune the main fuel table with closed loop and learn both disabled. Then enable the learn feature drive around for a while and let it make any additional adjustments and then disable the learn feature and enable the closed loop function.
Main take away is keep a second tune with Learn and Closed loop disabled loaded on the handheld. Just in case. save the current tune and flash the backup in the event of a failure.
Thanks for the info.
So I did find a NTK part number for O2 sensor that works with Terminator and Sniper system. Holley does not offer it, been using it for a while with no problems. NTK 24315, I personally have used it in both Sniper and Terminator. Still really good advice, just wanted to pass this on. It’s a $140 on Amazon.
What terminator you using sir?
And how is it holding up?
your comment is 3 yrs ago so thought i would ask im getting ready for a ls swap and would like a reliable daily
I am really glad I found this I was under the assumption that it self learns but you could mess with the tune
You can actually scope a Bosch when new and they have a trashy pattern. I've learned never to use Bosch O2 sensors, especially in Chrysler products.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Another thing you can do is to also lower the learn gain if you do decide to keep it on. Holley even says that lowering the learn gain to 10-30% will make the learn table populate much slower and act more as a long term fuel trim. I personally don't necessarily like the learn function on Holley ECUs because I think it alters too much of the table at once. It's even worse on the HP and Dominator when using the small 16x16 fuel table because the learn function can mess up the idle area while you are cruising.
First thing i do is turn the learn off whenever i start tuning one of these
You can also just turn off or turn down the learn just at an idle.
I allow the closed loop to add fuel maybe 10% at most. Never allow it to take out fuel. Specially on forced induction/nitrous.
Err... no. You want the base map to be slightly rich before it 'learns' to be safe and protect the engine.
I would love to see more Holley Terminator X.
I have a X max sitting on the bench i need to make a harness for to hook to an engine simulator for videos just havnt had time yet!
I have done stock ecu tuning with hp tuners I understand the correct concept of tuning but I am trying to learn what all the tabs/tables do and trying to relate them to what I have already learned. Stock ecu what a pita I enjoy tunning but damn I enjoy driving it to. So far I like what I see with the Holley system Lol nothing is perfect but better than stock. I hope you keep up the video's
i like the holley stuff way more than the factory ecu haha
another alternative is to turn off learn when you are rocking closed loop, or turn off closed loop when u r rocking the learn feature. and yes alter the amount it is allowed to add, have a good AFR gauge, on each bank, if one sticks you can tell easily that way. sorry bro, just wanted to play devils advocate for a bit. saw u on matts podcast, really enjoy your vids.
I even said on that podcast i usually turn learn off, so yes i agree!
Wait, the Terminator was setup to be a basic unit for standard fuel. It is using the Bosch style O2 because it’s, basic. But I think the NTK 24513 has the standard plug. Holly sells the adapter. The NTK is primarily for leaded and alcohol fuels, methanol etc.
good info man. very helpful. just got a holley sniper and learning how to use the software slowly but surely.
Check these out. Most of it will apply to you as well.
th-cam.com/video/Jpjlq5u4RE0/w-d-xo.html
I haven’t had a single problem with my terminator x, take your time make sure everything is hooked up right 🤷🏻♂️
I don't tune Holley but I enjoyed the content. Good job as usual Joe
Thanks for the video! Keep the info coming!
a drop in fuel pressure can be fixed with a fuel pressure compensation table that way its not relying on the o2 compensation
Yea you can build comp tables for basically anything. This is primarily aimed for when o2 sensors fail
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest I know I was just saying. I have arguments on the forms with people about not making the computer Compensat with the O2 i tell them there has to be a Error first then it corrects, some times the Error wins first too.
Great video man! I really can wait to get to the next steps on tuning! Hoever I looking for help dew to Holly is really hard to get a hold.
So I have a fox with 5.0 hci and now terminator, I follow the steps on IAC, and pwm. And delivered it to right output, and my car just keeps dumping air throughout the throttle body, I replacede it and same woriking, but if its unplugged it Idles fine sometimes it fires right up and sometimes it doesn't just looking for hint mans pls any help
Thanks for all the great info Joe! Super helpful!
Im lost but ill keep watching thks
Thx for all your info! Much appreciated
Great video man I went ahead and order the us to can bus cable it seems to be widely suggested plus I have been benge watching your videos just waiting for that moment it's difficult javeing really no idea where to start I've bee a mechanic for over 25 years but the only thing I know how to tune is an fpv drone lol can I ask u for suggestions on my particular setup are are you too busy I just need some basics
Sorry for the typos
Great tips and educational
Recently found ur channel and I’m really enjoying ur knowledge AND ur video editing efforts! Great work and hope ur channel keeps growing!! Good luck man!!
I like watching this...keep it going
Correct me if I’m wrong! You said use the VE table to get the engine to run at your desired AFR. The VE table is a representation of the engine’s air flow. The injector size and target air fuel are used to calculate pulse width to get the desired AFR. Once the VE table is correct (or maybe close), the AFR should also be close to “desired”. Then running closed loop and/or learn should need only small correction values as you stated. My point is If you decide some part of the target AFR table needs changing (maybe you want full throttle at 12.8 instead of 13.2 or something ) it shouldn’t affect your VE table. Having effective closed loop (with a functioning O2 sensor) should allow the ECU to do minor final corrections to hit the AFR targets. Your point is don’t let the ECU make drastic changes in case of a non-functional O2 sensor. I’m just saying getting the VE table right doesn’t affect the desired AFR, you do that with the target AFR table.
Using VE if you want to change the target afr you do not need to adjust the ve table at all. Simply adjust the target afr table and the change will take place with out closed loop having to do anything.
When o2 sensors fail they usually fail to a certain value, usually all the way rich or all the way lean. So at that point the ecu will think your say 10.0 afr when you are targeting 14.0. It will keep pulling fuel trying to get to the target until it maxes out the correction amount you let it. So if your closed loop table is 50% and your learn table is 50% it’s going to pull fuel to the point the car wont run anymore because the stuck sensor will just show 10.0 regardless of what the actual air fuel ratio is
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest I agree, I think we said the same thing.
@@bdugle1 i sorta thought that too but it seemed like you were disagreeing with me so i was confused haha
so in other words, read directions, and once it has been tuned dial back the damage the learn table can do to the tune (again like the instructions say to do) so when your o2 fails you can make it home. at least you actually took the time to try to understand the system. that is way more than most do. 🤣
Who has time to read instructions 😂
The A/F on mine is going crazy
What other o2 sensors can I use my terminator x keeps fouling my plugs and it’s almost like it’s running on 4 cylinders it’s a 6.1 Hemi
You can’t run any other o2s. The o2 isn’t the problem it’s the tune. Or if the o2 is going bad completely and you have the cl and learn values too high it will throw a bunch of fuel at it if it’s failing lean which they typically do
You should be called “ The Professor “
I’m having trouble updating my terminator xmax the hand held have v4 on it somehow an ECU has v1 firmware it’s all messed up. I’ll pay someone for a sd card with v2 update
At what point can you go in and change the percentage the computer can adjust? I just got my N/A 5.3 swap done and I’m starting to drive it, wanting to get a solid tune for it.
Not sure what you mean at what point, but you can change it from being completely off to like hundreds of percent haha
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest what I mean is should I change those parameters in self tuning and closed loop right away or should I let it self tune a bit by driving it first?
Where is your o2 mounted ? Trim depend it .
Hey Joe - do you have videos like these for the 4150 based sniper efi or are these interchangeable?
AlmoSt all of it is interchangeable
Great video
Good points
So, Joe is the terminator x or x Max good overall aftermarket ECU or should someone just buy the dominator? Haltech is awesome but extremely overpriced..
Works great for most people. Really depends on how your using it and what all you plan to add.
Im new to engine work. Is there someone you know that's in Atlanta that can help set my system up the correct way. I want to learn at the same time also. I have looked at a whole lot of video's. But I don't want to mess anything up also
I don’t know anybody off the top of my head in that area unfortunately
my transmission wont shift what have I done wrong
Everything
Thanks spooln272
Can a guy get a sensor for the terminator that works with leaded fuel?
Only one sensor option and it will work with leaded fuel, however sensor life will be shortened
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest thanks for the reply sure is a bumer though
Yea unfortunately it’s one of those you get what you pay for type of things. The wideband i use on customers cars that holds up to leased fuel is almost 3 grand.
The HP and Dominators can use a NTK sensor which will hold up 1000 times better
The stranded on the side of the road thing happened today lol
Happened to me over the weekend. I put it in open loop and limped it home.
@@CG-sr9xg good thing you were able to get going again!
Allright ducky
👍👍👍👍👍