P320 - SECRETS OF THE APEX FORWARD SET TRIGGER BAR
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ส.ค. 2024
- In this video I take an in depth look at the Apex Forward Set Trigger Bar for the P320 and use Apex's own US patent as a reference to explore exactly what Apex did with the trigger bar in order for it to achieve its performance outcome over a stock factory trigger bar.
Furthermore, I provide detailed explanations on WHY certain parts of the trigger bar work the way they do, as well as provide insight on some unexpected findings. ENJOY!
PATENT LINK: patents.google.com/patent/US1...
0:00 - INTRO
1:16 - PART DESCRIPTION
2:35 - APEX v. FACTORY WALK-AROUND
3:30 - LENGTH & HEIGHT COMPARISON
4:56 - TESTING SETUP OVERVIEW
SIG FACTORY TRIGGER BAR TESTING
5:47 - TRIGGER TRAVEL
5:59 - TAKE-UP
6:06 - TRIGGER TRAVEL TO BREAK
6:19 - RESET
6:27 - PULL WEIGHT
APEX FACTORY TRIGGER BAR TESTING
6:48 - TRIGGER TRAVEL
7:00 - TAKE-UP
7:06 - TRIGGER TRAVEL TO BREAK
7:23 - RESET
7:32 - PULL WEIGHT
7:48 - TEST RESULT COMPARISON
7:57 - REAR ARM INTRODUCTION
8:42 - THE "FREE END" PORTION
11:16 - THE "DROP SAFETY LIFTER TAB" PORTION
14:29 - THE "CAM" PORTION
15:45 - THE OVER-TRAVEL STOP TUBE
20:11 - SUMMARY
20:47 - THANKS & ANNOUNCEMENT
21:40 - OUTRO
If anyone is interested in learning ins and outs of the 320 platform this channel is a must
Thanks!... and if anyone is interested in getting some mods made to their P320, hit up my good friend here @Skips Gunz!
Really enjoying
@@SIGMECHANICS holy shit absolutely. The p320 is so complicated sometimes. Definitely super cool to learn. I had incredible trouble installing a WC p320 full dive grip module. The takedown lever is often very different to manipulate
Subbed, about to buy/build one soon
Just got myself a M18 and I felt I learned more from this channel than I did in school 😂
quietly turning gun fans into Mechanical Engineers/Gunsmiths one video at a time ...love it
This is amazing. The level of detail in each facet of finction along with the supporting CAD graphics, and sheer ease of comprehension you deliver to the viewer with this video is on an entirely next level! Thank you for all the time you put into this, will be subbing and checking out all of your videos now.
you can look at the holes where the spring goes in at 2:56, the square part that sticks in the housing are offset at different lengths. that would make a difference in trigger pulls. the square part on the oem is sitting forward the hole. The apex hole is sitting dead center
I can’t say enough about how useful and informative this video is. Fantastic. Thank you!
This is the kind of thorough, detailed information that speaks to me. Love it.
Extraordinary well explained visual information, very much appreciated! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 I am glad Sig Sauer is giving you the recognition and support that you deserve 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Absolutely the most underrated video I’ve ever seen. Phenomenal information and presentation
What a detailed and coherent explanation, very fascinating.
LOVE the 3D rendering and movement. Really easy for me to understand how everything works. Awesome job!
Thank you! Glad you found it helpful.
Just bought a p320 and find your information invaluable. Thank you.
I'm a relatively new subscriber as I just recently got a P320 (M18) of my own, but I'm so glad to have found your channel. Your videos have been very clear and informative, and I love learning more! Funny enough, I actually have one of these arriving today, so it looks like I have some more testing to go through for what works for me! Thank you so much!
Welcome to the community! Glad to have you here @YamateRailgun. I'm happy to hear the videos are helping you learn about your gun! Keep in mind my test was using a stock curved trigger to results may vary, but realistically, you won't have any problems. If you have any questions about your P320, feel free to connect with me at sigmechanics@gmail.com
Just found this channel and absolutely love the breakdown and modeling of all the mechanics. Definitely subscribing
Thanks! Glad to have you here with us.
Love your videos and graphics. AMAZING GRAPHICS!
Another fascinating and very informative explanation of the P320 mechanism. Thanks as always.
Hey there @John Stewart! Good to see you, thanks!
This has to be the best explanation video I have ever seen. Outstanding job !!! You just got a subscriber!!
Thank you! That’s very kind of you to say.
Fantastic presentation and quite detailed.
I really enjoy your channel and video content. I am just beginning to explore modifications to my P320. As someone who has never customized a pistol, your videos are a guiding force that is facilitating my upgrades and customizations. Thank you!
It’s always a pleasure to hear that the videos are helping people understand and get comfortable with their pistols! Thanks!
You deliver a very clear and enjoyable explanation. Thank You!
Not a lot of Umm's or repeating yourself 3 times to get a point across like some others do.
Thank you for the kind words and thank you again for watching!
Wow, that a lot of interesting information. Great job. Thank you
Outstanding Review and articulate explanations.
You read my mind! I JUST installed an Apex forward set trigger bar and I was trying to figure out what design changes they made to virtually eliminate trigger pretravel. Your video explains it perfectly! The Apex trigger bar is actually a safe option for folks who want to eliminate pretravel. I purchased my 320 used and the previous owner had it set up with the OEM trigger bar and the Armory Craft adjustable trigger. He dialed out all of the pretravel where the trigger sat on the wall at rest. Obviously this completely disables the striker safety so I was looking for options that would allow me to eliminate pretravel and maintain the drop/striker safety. I'm happy with the results of the Apex trigger bar. I eliminated pretravel and maintained the drop safety features. I also have the Gray Guns sear and sear springs installed so i get a pretty crisp trigger that breaks at 2.25 lbs.
@Stuff, that’s what I’m here for! I was just playing around with the Apex / AC combo today, good choice if you know what you’re doing. I also found an interesting bit of information… the striker will push the sear down a bit when it “hooks” the sear. So, even when I took out ALL the take up, once I installed the FCU and racked the slide I would have .3” take up at the trigger! It’s a lot of fun to figure all this out. Anyway, I’m glad you enjoyed the video, stay tuned! Lots more coming.
As a “visual learner” these renderings you are producing help me exponentially. After owning and modifying Glocks the p 320 fcu is like alien tech to me. I love my sigs, they shoot amazing but they gave me a new found appreciation for Glock simplicity.
Hey, that seems like a win for the 2A community one way or another!
Thank you for spending your time doing these videos. They are helpful!
Glad you like them @Dragunfyer83! It's my pleasure, even with the time it takes to make them, it's rewarding when people think or find them useful/helpful! Thanks for watching.
Absolutely incredible. I'd love to see other aspects of the P320 explained in this way! Bravo.
Where can I get buy that giant "sig puck"?
I had a friend 3D print it for me some time ago. Quite a few people have asked me about it, so maybe I’ll make them eventually.
Awesome work. I have had the original version of the over-travel kit from Apex in my M17 for a while now. I do prefer the feel of the trigger but didn't really want to remove the thumb-safety. I recently ordered the new model over-travel bar and will be swapping it out so I can re-install my thumb safety. Thank you for the analysis of the part.
Thanks again for sharing you hard work. Including the cad graphics is very helpful getting a good visual understanding. Again, much appreciated!
You're very welcome!
Great video. Watched it again, and the details are so perfect from an academic perspective. Love the 3D renderings.
Thank you!
Some really great stuff, I'm Loving all the knowledge sharing:)
Glad to hear it! @Richard Harris. Definitely more to come!
I have the Apex trigger system in 2 of my p320 and I'll have to say I know a lot more now than I did , thanks for another absolutely awesome video 🙏
The Apex is great and the folks at Apex are also awesome. I don’t usually tune my personal guns, but I would trust the apex over an adjustable trigger any day.
Love it... for months i was trying to figure out what the difference was. Now I know
@George Rodriguez, When I got the Apex TB I had the same feeling, I just had to know what made it work!
Man nice work!! You are definitely taking this to another level ✊🏽💪🏽💯
Thank you!
Amazing video! Thank you for all the work! I just bought a 320, I learned a ton from the video.
Hey! Thank you. I’m glad you found it helpful. The 320 is a great platform, let me know if you have any questions.
I can't believe how awesome this video is.. Great Video !!!!
Thank you! Thanks for watching!
Great video. I’m also learning the 320. I’ll be purchasing one soon.
What a great resource you are!
Thank you! Glad to be have been helpful.
Fantastic videos
I'm so geeking out with this awesome breakdown and beautiful presentation 🤯
Thank you! I’m so happy to hear it. Wait until you see what I’m working on for the next video.
@@SIGMECHANICS with they way you execute your videos, I can hardly wait! As always, thank you for all do and share!
I got the whole Apex kit for my P320 and I love it much better than stock.
This is an amazingly well put together video
Hey @Hope Williams! Thanks!
@@SIGMECHANICS no problem I truly enjoy your contribution to the community and the the level of information is unparalleled!
Incredible breakdown. Nice job.
Thank you!
I recently added this kit to my M18. The trigger feels a little lighter and after some dry firing a little smoother. The reset is definitely shorter. It sounds the same but is more tactile. The most noticeable difference is there is essentially no take up. You're at the wall to start. The break feels about the same as the stock trigger. Overall I do like it. But I plan to buy an FCU and do a custom 320 around it and If I go with Apex Id probably jist get the trigger. The advanced flat trigger feels really great imo.
Excellent video! Love the controlled jigs for demonstration and diagnosis via destructive reverse engineering.
Thanks!
You're a blessing to the community man. If I may make a humble suggestion: perhaps make a fixture to actuate the trigger using a screw? Turning a screw to push the trigger back is potentially more precise than using one's finger since you can stop the screw as soon as the trigger breaks / resets. Thanks again for all your work!
Thank you @Shootin' Bruin. Wow, that is an excellent suggestion and I will work on a way to incorporate that for future testing. I was already working on a new custom testing rig for you guys, so this is a great opportunity to implement some fine tuning capabilities. Thanks for watching!
@@SIGMECHANICS Glad you like my suggestion! Appreciate all you do!
I think armory craft or tyrant or another aftermarket trigger uses a screw adjustment as well
You help me understand this stuff so much thank you sir 😌
Glad to hear that! @Vapor Trail.
Awesome detail
Man, your videos are gold !
@bimmer666, thank you! Let me know if there is anything you’d be interested in learning about.
@@SIGMECHANICS Thanks man! I´m curious about the question if there is a possibility to minimize the frame to FCU wiggle. Maybe by bending the fcu´s rails up a bit. :) That´s what i thought about.
Thank you for doing thorough tests with gauges so we can quantify the difference instead of qualitative/subjective feel.
I just installed this trigger and I found it to be an improvement on stock in terms of it being lighter and slightly more crisp, but there's still quite a bit of play and creep compared to my PPQ.
Better than stock, not as good as walther triggers yet tho.
Thanks for another excellent, detailed video my Friend! Keep up the great work! 👍
Thanks, will do! By the way I got in touch with the SA, big things coming I think. Thanks for sending me the contact info!
@@SIGMECHANICS My pleasure! Please keep me in the loop! 😉😎
Your work Is Amazing man! I enjoy this video
Thank you!
Great work I just found this video I find your scientific approach very helpful!! Thanks for putting in the work
Thank you!
you can look at the holes where the spring goes in at 2:56, the square part that sticks in the housing are offset at different lengths. that would make a difference in trigger pulls. the square part on the oem is sitting forward the hole. The apex hole is sitting dead center.
Your videos are amazing!
@Alexander Portnoff, thank you!
Another great video! Your a Genius! Keep it up budd.
Thanks @S L, will do!
Great detailed video. This must took you a long time to put together.
Thank you. Yes, on average about an hour or more per minute of footage if you can believe it! Thanks for watching!
This video gave me a hunch as to why some P320s have a sting sensation when firing.
My guess is that it’s caused by a larger gap between the rear of the trigger bar and the frame near where the seer is located.
This gap is caused by a weak or damaged rear spring used to attach the trigger bar
I don’t have my M18 anymore so I can’t test it out, but that stood out to me as a difference
ur the best !! Thx so much !!
Love the information you provide. It really increases my understanding of how the FCU works. I just wish you would re-introduce the videos you created for the P365 FCU awhile ago. This is where all my concentration is now. Trying to get the P365 FCU to be better tuned.
I am actually currently working on the P365 FCU. Of course I am also trying to complete the 3-D model for all the parts and components. The plan right now would be to start making videos for general help and support and then get into those flagship videos that go into high detail.
I got a few projects on the go, but it should start trickling in soon .
@@SIGMECHANICS That would be fantastic. I love your 3-D modeling as it really explains how all the parts work in concert. Please keep up the great work.
Wow. What an awesome channel. Subscribed.
Thank you! Glad to have you here.
Thank you for the video! Very professional!
The added trigger pull weight with the Apex is interesting…
@gunjack661, to be fair, Apex does note that trigger weight is increased. Where exactly it comes from, I'm not sure because of the point I made about the trigger bar through hole being different from the OEM TB. That must definitely impact things, I have some Ideas but I need to test further first.
@@SIGMECHANICS First off great video, thanks. Doesn't Apex say pull weight is reduced 30%?
Perfect !
Fantastic!!
Glad to have found this channel. I got my wife an 365X-Macro and i got my self the p320 spectre comp so im trying to figure out how to remove that sig creep and take-up that they all have. The custom shop fcu isnt as bad but still has some creep and i want a solid wall before it breaks
Take up is relatively easy to remove, however, removing too much may interfere with the safety lever. Creep on the other hand is a little harder to remove since the sear and striker have a almost fixed amount. A good trigger can resolve this somewhat. I have a video coming soon. That will be helpful on this topic.
Awesome!!!!!!
wow lots stuff to learn
Holy shit thank you this is everything I’ve wanted and more. I. I… I think I’m in love. WITH DATA!!
Best comment I’ve gotten so far! Glad you feel that way! I think you’ll love the next video.
I don’t even own a Sig, but this was so interesting!
Thanks!
Nice. I love mine
Looks great without the trigger guard. I think that'll be my next upgrade.
Such a great channel. Thank you for your time and detail. Have you got any advice for those of us who are using the sig custom works fcu? Would the apex bar and overtravel tube help that particular setup?
Your welcome, and thanks you for watching! The Custom Works FCU is actually no different from the standard FCU with exception of course, that the coating is different. Therefore, the Apex trigger bar kit will function the same in either FCU configuration.
Amazing video thank you
Thank you!
@@SIGMECHANICS I was thinking of getting the M18 but have concerns with sigsauer drop tests and accidental discharge. What are your thoughts on that?
Well, the drip test issue was real and Sig admitted as much, however they did fix the issue (I’ll share a link to a video I did about this below). However, you really should not worry about the drop safety issue because that is no longer an issue. I have looked into the accidental discharges pretty extensively and have tried making critical modifications to my P320 in order to try to replicate something similar to an accidental discharge.
I have removed all safeties and have filed down critical infrastructure way beyond what you would have in normal wear and tear, and I still was not able to ever re-create it. I truly and honestly believe that there is no accidental discharge problem and that the things we hear are due to negligent discharges. Up until now there has not been anybody able to replicate this problem in a controlled environment (for example the safety issue was a repeatable test).
All that just to say that the P320 in my opinion is very safe. And much of what you’re hearing on TH-cam has more to do with getting clicks and likes due to controversy. I of course, am willing to change my opinion however, I would need evidence or proof.
@@SIGMECHANICS thank you so much for the info. I was going to put on my CCW but didn’t want those concerns in the back of my head. I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my question
@theadventuresofvm8711 My pleasure, anytime. You can also reach me at Sigmechanics@gmail.com if you ever need anything.
Great video! Ive always wanted to learn how the various parts of the fcu work and where they can be optimized. I'm a mechanic and machinist by trade and love the exploded autocad views. I've been interested in the engineering of tings ever since I was a kid.
Definitely subbed for more of your content!
That said, would it be ok (safety wise) to just install the stop tube by itself? I'd like to tighten up the trigger assy without permanently modifying anything.
I have a 320 x compact with the straight trigger- it's pretty great to shoot stock, but the take up and reset could be tightened up a bit.
It's difficult to determine the over travel- seems like the trigger hits the stop right after the break when dry firing it- or at least its difficult to determine how much over travel there is with the gun disassembled.
Going to go watch your video on different sig triggers now, perhaps that will have the answers.
Yes! The stop tube works wonders on its own. Alternatively you have the option to go with a trigger with an over travel stop screw (Grayguns makes one for example), both will produce similar changes but the trigger will give you options as to how far your stop is.
Thank for watching!
can you do a video on the greyguns seer kit? i liked that a lot more than my apex trigger bar.
I can and I will. They just sent one over recently and I just need to squeeze it into the production schedule.
This research and cad design would've taken me 33 years to make. Great job. I wish you would've mentioned or explored why the apex system came back with a heavier pull than stock.
It did take a while, but I enjoyed the process. The pull weight is due to the geometry of the goose neck placement. It would be hard to show.
@@SIGMECHANICS if one of my goals is to get a lighter pull, then this would not be a good system for my pistol, right?
What barrel is in the Sig slide at the end of your video? And I enjoyed the Apex breakdown... It's on the shopping list.
That’s the Barsto Gunsmith fit barrel, when I get time I will be doing a video on fitting the barrel, but if you don’t want to go that far…It also comes as a drop in option too! Give Irv Stone a call, he’s a great guy and can help you find what you need.
Congratulations on a great and wise video, I have a question, three weeks ago the new Siga P320 XCompact, production March 2022, it is a model with a straight trigger and I have the number 576 embossed on the factory trigger bar, or importing the complete Apex trigger bar shown in your video to Poland will also improve the work on this SIG Sauer model of mine? Best regards and thank you in advance for your answer.
“576” is only a marking to know which factory the part was made. It doesn’t indicate date of production.
You will have no problem using the factory trigger with the Apex trigger bar.
Well done! You are creating the science that will someday be used to make this gun a viable "NRA/CMP Bullseye Competition" gun.
Does the Apex trigger system improves safer if the P320?
Thank you for your video, amazing!!!
Thank you! Really, it will make no change to the safety in the P320, but the improvements I talk about are tangible and lots of people like the Apex system.
Great video but i found the Apex trigger to reduce trigger pull weight not increase it in the p320
Can you compare the current apex competition set vs the grayguns competition set please?
I’d need to obtain them, but once I do…sure!
WIth the work you have done on various triggers, what do you consider the best DIY trigger /trigger kit/Springs etc to install?
I haven’t tested the triggers based on additional components, so I don’t have the data to answer that question.
“This won’t be a review” and proceeds to give super in depth review LOL
Ha! In a sense it was a review, however I used their own patent to point out the key presumed benefits and verified them independently.
I suppose what I wanted to achieve was a lack of personal opinion (how it felt) and include as much data pertinent to the product (how it works).
The funny thing was that I expected Apex to be a bit bothered by it, but in reality it allowed me to become friends with one of the owners who felt the information was presented fairly and factual. I can honestly say they are a great company with a solid team!
I like my P320 just the way it is.
I prefer the shock pull and reset and can't seem to remove the spring and pin spacer. Any tips?
I’m not sure what you mean by shock pull.
My p320 apex trigger feels like it has a slugging reset that slows my cadence. Should i make sure that forward set tube is in the right place? Great vid, btw.
It’s slightly possible the trigger stop is hitting the spring and not the tube. That would be my first thing to check.
Are there gains, improved feel is polishing the contact points in a stock Sig OEM FCU?
Not exactly, though on a very macro level maybe it does, but you won’t likely feel the difference (too much). I should try a before and after on the TriggerScan tool to see if there is any tangible (but mainly undetectable) differences.
How would the number differ on an x-carry flat trigger type fcu ?
I’m not really sure.
Another excellent video. Is there any chance of an MCX/MPX series down the line?
@Seleckt, Thank you! At the moment no, I’m going to keep making these for pistols, and moving through the various platforms. Down the line I would like to though.
If keep the original trigger bar and only add the stop tube and spring, will I retain the lighter pull weight and still reduce my over travel?
Yes.
Great video.. do you think it is possible for a conversion barrel to be designed work in the sig p320 .40 caliber to make it shoot a 9mm reliably?
If I understand your question correctly, yes! I actually have a conversion barrel now it was supposed to be sent as 9mm, instead it came as .40 conversion and was too big, I had to put it on a lathe and remove a few thousands of an inch and it fit (and runs) perfectly.
@@SIGMECHANICS what I was referring to is a conversion barrel only that you can use in a .40 cal slide to shoot 9mm so you wouldn't have to get an entire conversion kit. Lone wolf makes one for the glock 23 to shoot 9mm
Same here, I got a barrel that would fit in a .40 but made to shoot 9mm, hence why I had to put it on a lathe because I needed it to fit into my 9mm slide. Give my friend Irv Stone a call at Barsto, I’m sure he can help you out.
in your opinion sir, is the apex upgrade worth it in an x series P320 ?
If you are not able to (or comfortable with) modifying your FCU internals yourself, then it is the next best option for sure! It works and there are hundreds of people who have reviewed it.
Another option is through the Sig Armorer who has (or will very soon) released a kit that will include some upgrades to the trigger bar, sear and striker.
Can you help me coz after i installed this to my sig p320 x full, trigger does not reset. Saw a lot of people experiencing this
Are you using the overtravel stop tube?
Anyone know if I can use this in conjunction with the Grayguns competition springs?
You can, however you should be aware that Apex recommends not mixing parts.
Does this trigger bar work with the skeleton flat Sig factory trigger?
Absolutely it does.
I want a m18 so for me to be able to get a manual saftey and do it my self to make a mimic m18 hell yea
This video will get you closer to what your looking for:
P320 MANUAL SAFETY CONVERSION (HOW-TO USE THE MSAFE-T)
th-cam.com/video/zemqe3gMqJs/w-d-xo.html
Did you try the over travel tube with the stock trigger bar? Curious.
I did not, just what I showed in the video here.
Does this product work in the XTen? Thanks
Yes, it will.
Can one reproduce the effects of the apex bar using nothing but that overstep tube on a factory bar?
Absolutely @Frank Freda. Take a look at my video called "DIY Competition Trigger Job" where I go into detail on this (surprisingly similar) modification. Thanks for watching!
@@SIGMECHANICS thanks for your time and effort.
Couldn't the leading edge of the Apex trigger bar leg be trimmed down to clear the seer sooner, making for a shorter reset?
Yes, but in doing so you lengthen the take up. The design is very give and take.
Hello!.Could you tell me if it makes sense to install apex bar kit or grayguns trigger kit to sig sauer x five legion? will there be a noticeable difference?. Thank you for your response.
Hi there, I haven’t tried that combination myself however, I think it will work fine as the Apex trigger bar will remove takeup and the Grayguns will remove overtravel. If you do try it please let me know your experience.
@@SIGMECHANICS Thank you for your response. Of course I will let you know. With APEX will not be a problem, but grayguns cannot be bought in POLAND, where am I from.
It’s so hard to get some popular parts if your not in the US! Keep an eye on your local gun trading sites (if you have some). You can always try a DIY method (see my video on the DIY competition trigger job).
What would you recommend between the apex bar, gray guns trigger, or armory craft trigger for a crisper, more consistent and not as mushy trigger?
It’s hard to say, depends on what you consider “mushy”, there’s a kit coming soon from Sig Armorer (being announced any time now), that is closer to what I currently use now, which is a DIY trigger job that in my opinion feels great. Between your options there the Apex trigger bar has a massive impact because the trigger bar is the heart and soul of the P320, modifying the trigger bar equates to much better performance.
@@SIGMECHANICS what are your thoughts on the Agency Arms trigger? Basically, I think there’s too much pre travel and the reset is too long.
I have one on the way and I’ll be doing a deep dive into it. So I don’t have an answer for you now, but hopefully in the next video I release.
Will trigger bar fit a 320 x-compact
Yes