Can a 600bc ship sail to America from North Africa? | Book of Mormon Evidence
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ก.ค. 2024
- Here we are coming to you from Washington DC with Captain Philip Beale.
Join us as we discuss his trip to Africa and his adventures in building a Phoenician ship and sailing to America.
Come as we look into the possibilities this opened up for Lehi and his family in their journey to America.
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Captain Philip Beale
Philip Beale is an adventurer, maritime history enthusiast, author and public speaker.
Philip undertook his first international expedition at the age of 18 when he won a place on Operation Drake sailing on ship Eye of the Wind from Fiji and Papua New Guinea in 1979.
He read Politics at the University of Hull before joining the Royal Navy. Then, in 2003, after a 12 year career in the City of London, Philip pursued a project focussing on Indonesian cultural influence on Africa, through the building of a double outrigger vessel, which he then successfully sailed from Indonesia to West Africa via Madagascar and the Cape of Good Hope. The Borobudur Ship Expedition (Aug 2003- Feb 2004) was a voyage that some professional sailors’ thought was too dangerous and would be impossible to achieve in such a limited vessel. In 2005 he was honoured by Indonesian President, Megawati, for Services to Indonesian Culture for leading the Borobudur Ship Expedition.
In 2005 Philip conceived the idea of recreating the first circumnavigation of Africa by the Phoenicians as recorded by Greek historian Herodotus. After 3 years of research the Phoenicia was launched in 2008 at the start of the Phoenicia Ship Expedition. The recreation of the Phoenician circumnavigation of Africa was completed in October 2010 - arguably the longest voyage in a replica of an ancient ship in distance and time in modern history.
Continuing the theme of the Phoenicians being the greatest of the ancient sailors, the 2019 the Phoenicians Before Columbus Expedition was launched to look at whether the Phoenicians could have reached the Americas before the Vikings and Columbus, by sailing the Phoenicia across the Atlantic.
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At the Phoenicia Museum near Montrose, Rick showed me the Mortise and Tenon detail that is integral to the design of the entire hull.
In my childhood we had Thor Heyerdahl. For my children we have, Philip Beal. Philip has more closely matched the voyages of Lehi and Mulek in place and time than Heyerdahl or anyone else ever did.
I agree, it is fascinating.
There were no voyages of Lehi nor Mulek- it's fictional, like a comic book from the 19th century. Sorry to burst your bubble but this fairy tale on the sea is fake.
So the guy reconstructs an authentic replica ship and sails it around Africa but doesn’t think to take photos or videos to document the voyage? Would’ve come in very handy for TH-cam…
Nephi's family was directed south from Jerusalem, then east. Thought is they found a small valley along the Indian ocean coast
\they used to build a ship. From there they were directed by ocean current to the south east. They landed somewhere along the coast of chile where they disembarked and their family growth began, Lamanite and Nephite. Their movements were always northward up through what is now Panama and further north.
From Oman the Lehites either went south east toward India or they went south west toward the tip of Africa. Capt Beale went south west toward and around Africa as that was the way of the currents and the Lehites would have landed at Florida. Going to Chile would have required 18 months across the largest Pacific Ocean which Capt Beale said is very unlikely.
@@riannelson67Nephi himself said that they followed the Red Sea in a southeastern direction for a period of time, then turned directly east until they reached a place they called Bountiful that was by the sea shore. By his description that would put them at the Indian ocean. They then continued their course in an eastward direction.
What also adds to support this is that all the prophets and apostles support this thought process. I've studied much on this subject and not a single prophet and apostle supports the Heartland theory. They don't even acknowledge it as true. Remember, our leaders from Joseph Smith to now are entitled to revelation pertaining to the ancient inhabitants of this land and all so far puts Lehi's landing about Chile and having them migrate north into central America and southwestern United States. That's where most of the Book of Mormon takes place.
So for me I will take a prophet's and apostle's word over the guess work of those who know practically nothing of these people who once lived here.
@@TheForgottenMan270 You mention all the prophets(Presidents I assume) and apostles supported the idea. Everyone agrees all the way up to bountiful, so I am assuming that you are saying that all the Prophets and Apostles agree on central America. I am aware of Joseph referring to the heartland area as the plains used by the nephites, Oliver Cowdery, discussing the final battles of the BOM happening in New York. Young talked about the American Indians as Lamanites. While this doesn’t prove any specific sea voyage, there is one theory of travel that is more practical. I am not aware of any apostles or presidents saying that the people of Lehi crossed the Pacific. I would be interested in where you are seeing those quotes about central America. You mentioned that no authority mentioned the heartland theory as true. That is probably true since it would have to be in the last 30 years since that is how long the name has existed. Can you point to something that says the hemispheric, mezo-American, Baja California, or any other theory by name or concept is correct?. Sorry if I didn’t understand your premise, it wasn’t specifically stated, so I may have misunderstood your intention. Let me know so I can add some data points to my own studies
No prophet has ever claimed revelation indicating that Central America was the location of the Book of Mormon history.
The prophet, Joseph Smith, however did make many direct claims to revelation that the Book of Mormon occurred in America's Heartland. For the most in-depth treatise on the subject ever done, please watch all 5 episodes of our podcast with Church history expert Jonathan Neville on our TH-cam channel under Joseph Knew 2.0. You'll be glad you did so that you can get accurate and verifiable historical facts, rather than being spoon fed false historical narratives by the promoters of the Mesoamerican theories.
Will this be recorded? Can we somehow watch this conference thats going to happen today?
Absolutely! Simply go to www.bookofmormonevidence.org and subscribe to our streaming video service. With over 1,600 one-hour presentations by over 350 experts in virtually every area of Book of Mormon research, it is the most comprehensive and uplifting repository of information and research ever assembled in support of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon! All for as little as the cost of a burger a month... $7.97. Check it out!
1st Nephi says their ship was not after the pattern of man, but after the pattern, the Lord showed Nephi.
True, but this also shows that it was practical
Yes it was. It may have to do with the type of sails or rudders that the Lord knew would help them most, the depth of the hull or other things.
1 Nephi 18:2. They were not drifting, because they had a rudder and sails, and directions from the liahona. The drifting "evidence" in this video is irrelevant to the Nephite journey. On the other hand, it is totally plausible that the Mulekites came on a Phoenician ship.... But the only ocean voyage for which we have a time length is the Jaredites' journey of 344 days, driven constantly by the wind (Ether 6). There are few if any clues for any of the three voyages as to which direction they sailed. We are safe to stick to the text of the Book of Mormon, rather than cherry-picking evidence for one route or another...
The 'drifters' referred to in the video are oceanic buoys placed by NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) in most all of Earth's oceans to monitor currents in real time for shipping purposes. It was never assumed that Nephi's ship was drifting.
If you watch the entire video, you'll find that there are several clues that could indicate which route Nephi's ship went. For example, the text states that just before embarking on the voyage, they gathered "fruit and honey" in "abundance" and left. The harvest season along the Omani coast, where Bountiful is indicated to have been, happens in the fall of the year. There are two primary wind currents along the Saudi Arabian peninsula coast that would dictate the direction a sailing ship would travel. As it turns out, the prevailing winds along the coast in the fall season comes out of the Himalayas and blows southwest along the east coast of Africa, which is verified by the Phoenicia expedition as it left in October and sailed southwest along Africa's east coast! Detailed analysis of the text is how this was discovered.
I've heard it said that it's easier to cross an ocean than to cross a mountain range.
It probably depends on what type of transport you have available. But it is true that trans-oceanic travel was much more common anciently than modern science admits.
I am not too impressed with this video.
The sound is weak. Good drawings of the ship are near nonexistent.
The circumnavigation of Africa is not described well.
In the original, the crew literally stopped and grew their food
for the next leg of the voyage.
Carthage was founded as a colony of Phoenicia in about 800 BC.
That would be a much more likely port of departure.
And if you really, really want to get into records based on oral
history, go to Maori Symbolism by Rout and Te Rake
to see a record where the Assyrians traveled to Portugal over land
then launched into the Atlantic Ocean.
I like Mormons. They are a good people.
But the last time I read of their voyage, they
were said to have gone by something like a submarine
that needed windows.
Now, for a last note on where they landed.
There are great stone balls in Costa Rica.
The Maoris claim they were ballast.
A round ballast did not make sense to me.
But a globe with all the equator gathered as a point on the top
would have made a fair representation of the world.
If they were lucky enough to project a shadow down
from the sun, they could have selected a fair guess at latitude.
The Spanish recorded a couple of Black men of military bearing
in South America. They recorded a place on the lower Mississippi
called Anelco. Brothers, that is a close variant of a Carthaginian name,
Amilcar.
I have discovered that the geography of Africa, as discovered by the sailor and told to us by Herodotus, is repeated in the BOM. This means that Lehi himself is most likely the same sailor as the one Herodotus is talking about. Lehi circumnavigated Africa and stayed in the Old World. Alma 22:32 is describing Africa.
Both manuscripts describe "Desolation", a "Narrow" place, a "Sea to Sea", the "Distance" across the narrow place and Herodotus says Africa is "bounded by the sea" where the BOM says "surrounded by water". They both describe Africa.
If you read and compare Herodotus Book 4, Chapter 40-42 with Alma 22:32 you will see the comparison. Both manuscripts describe a sailor in 600 BC and the geography is the same. They both describe Africa. Alma 22:32 is describing Africa.
Thank you. I appreciate good input like this.
Sorry, but no one has proposed a legitimate geographical model of the Book of Mormon in Africa. It happened in America. The scripture is clear about that.
Good comment. Yes, the sound was a challenge, but hopefully understandable.
For a detailed blueprint of the ship the Phoenicia was patterned after, please refer to the Jules-Verne 7 salvaged ship now in a museum in France. See www.aramcoworld.com/Articles/April-2021/Could-Phoenicians-Have-Crossed-the-Atlantic for more info.
Rob, sorry, that Phoenician concept does not add up. Nephi was young and there is no mention of him having had ship building experience and/or knowing the construct of a ship that crosses the ocean. He said the Lord showed him a plan the blueprint and his brothers even mocked Nephi for having no experience in ship building. He certainly did not trade in gold silver etc to buy a Phoenician ship. so you do you believe the text and content of the book of mormon? the ship Nephi built was likely nothing like one that was available otherwise God might have would have could have told Nephi to acquire one. i get it that the Phoenician ship might make a good discussion and proof the ocean crossover as close as possible- maybe. But you get my argument about the blatant assumption that Nephi maybe built a ship after a Phoenician blueprint. God would say “build a Phoenician ship”.
Thanks for the comment 1000 years earlier. I realized that and removed the comment. My response Dohhhhhhh Or I am trying to think but nothing happens.
No one claimed Nephi had ship building experience. It was mentioned that because of proximity to the Phoenician ports of Tyre and Sidon that Lehi's family most likely knew of their ship building expertise and knew Nephi had no such experience, thereby causing Laman & Lemuel to claim that is "a fool, for he thinketh he can build a ship." It seems that Laman & Lemuel had some idea of how difficult becoming a shipwright is in making that comment.
No one said they traded for a Phoenician ship.
The text specifically reads that Nephi was shown a unique way of working the timbers which could be better joinery or a different way of creating the ribbing or planking or even a different hull design, but the text is clear that they built a wooden sailing ship. The Phoenicia expedition we feel is a good analog because it is a wooden sailing ship and demonstrates that Nephi could have made the voyage using only the technologies available at their time, thus validating the possibility of trans-oceanic contact with America in the time frames recorded in the Book of Mormon.
When Herodotus gives us the story of the sailor in 600 BC he gives details about the geography of Africa that was discovered during the circumnavigation. These details are repeated in the BOM. This means the sailor Herodotus was talking about and the Lehi/Nephi sailor is the SAME. Lehi did not sail to America. Lehi circumnavigated Africa and the BOM takes place in Africa.
Alma 22:32 is a description of Africa in identical terms that Herodotus used.
The BOM was written by Jews that escaped to Egypt then they followed the Nile River upstream to Ethiopia.
Herodotus was a Greek historian. The Book of Mormon took place in America, not Africa. No one has proposed a legitimate model claiming it happened in Africa.