I ain't disagreeing with you but saying "This map is good until you have a 25,000 hour sniper on it" is about as unanimously applicable and obvious as going "This pizza tastes good until you pour a cup of bleach on it".
@@DOGMA20051True true, a choke point doesn't ruin a whole map with a 10000+ hrs demoman but it does with sniper because there is no single choke point, but the entire map
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 Fr like, what? 😂 Pier I can kinda understand because that map has some chokes that are fun, but.... Egypt? As Heavy...? What? Lmfao
I have a fond Mercenary Park memory and it’s when me and a medic killed a bot over and over again until they left. I was playing Fists of Steel Heavy and he was playing Vac Medic I believe. After the bot left me and the medic square danced and celebrated. I loved it.
I think he's got a lot of based placings but some like Foundry being below CTF_Well and Powerhouse is painful. Powerhouse is a fun memey map so I can kind of get on board with it but either version of well is terrible the moment people remember multiple Engineer's lock down the entire game into an endless stalemate. The spawn being literally right next to the point/intel doesn't help either. Even 2fort has the courtesy of making Engineer have to walk back to the intel if he doesn't have a teleporter when he dies. However, some of the placements tend to make more sense when you remember who his favorite class is. A Scout main would loathe a lot of these placings, but a Demo or Soldier main would agree with most of it.
Sniper is a defense class because whenever anyone suggests the idea that he might be a bit too strong, sniper mains immediately get VERY defensive about how he's fair and balanced
Sniper mains explaining how the issue is bad map design, rather than the fact that one class (Sniper) is so oppressive and strong in the right hands that every map needs to be specifically catered towards neutering his power, and if they fail to do so the experience is completely ruined (just respect the sight line)
Yeah I agree with this coming from someone who usually plays sniper. He’s too oppressive, powerful, and desperately needs something done so that everyone can have fun without ruining the experience for sniper either. I think Zesty’s suggestion of lowering his ammo count to 10 shots max and nerfing quickscoping would be a great balance choice. 120 damage seems reasonable. Then perhaps rework or change his secondaries so that he’s weak up in close range as he should be.
12:05 is just painfully true, imagine how many great servers we could have if they stopped trying to be diet competitive and if the players weren't runoff into casual mode
mr paladin is the biggest chad to ever make tf2 videos. while most spy mains are virgin degenerates or weeaboos, mr paladin is the chad family man spy main
You hit a lot of agreeable points. I'm a 6s player and even I know some of our maps DO NOT translate well into the casual design. You hit the nail on the head with this one. Can't wait for part 2.
Not very underrated, but personally more fun than badwater or upward It's kind of fun how the community complains about sniper a lot, and the most popular maps have dozens of sniper sightlines coupled with engies that can easily shut down everything and protect snipers way too effectively
barnblitz is complete dogshit, just goldrush with snow its just chokepoint after chokepoint and the final point is extremely boring to play on both teams
Give sniper damage falloff, you instantly fix the "I died from some random pixel in a different continent that I can barely see". You force sniper to be reachable, or to take forever to charge up to full just to kill like one light class with a headshot if he wants to still be on a different planet from you. You can work it in, in a way where its still fun to play sniper, while making him an actually fair class. Make him become reachable by other gamers if he wants to actually get anything done, that way hes actually taking a RISK in order to get his REWARD. That risk is being a very squishy, very high priority target, near a ton of enemy gamers, and the reward is the power that sniper holds. Currently, sniper gets heavily rewarded, for taking absolutely no risk whatsoever.
@@onlyclownsreadthislmfao that's too much tbh. You're over nerfing the shit outta him. Sniper still needs to feel fun to play. All that your suggestions do is make sniper an even weaker class than spy. The problem with snipe is not his ability to potentially kill people really quickly with precise shots frequently. The problem with sniper is that he's able to fully oppress every opponent in this manner while being untouchable by anyone short of another sniper. Sniper as he stands does not have to take any risk to obtain his rewards. THAT is what is broken about sniper, NOT the potential to obtain overwhelming rewards. Force sniper to play risky to gain his rewards and you fix the problem while still making sniper enjoyable to play. Your solution is imo pretty poorly thought out and doesn't take into account the fact that we still have to make sniper enjoyable to play. Damage falloff for sniper is a good middle ground between pulling a valve and making him useless, and keeping him as op as he is rn. I also think that FSoaS's clip idea would be a good combo with this.
@@onlyclownsreadthislmfao Making sniper incredibly underpowered because of your own subjective experience, because you "want them to suffer" is incredibly selfish and damaging to the game. It's a very careless notion that you have. Personal bias like that should not be taken into account when making balance decisions. The goal should be BALANCE, not "snipers need to suffer". Your nerfs would not make sniper balanced, they'd just swing the pendulum the other way. He'd be unbalanced bad instead of unbalanced good. If you can't be even a little bit objective when making statements about balance then don't make them at all. Your suggestions would negatively impact the game as a whole if they were to be implemented. This doesn't come from a sniper main, this is coming from a soldier, scout and demo player. I get absolutely rolled by sniper all the time and it ain't fun. But letting that feeling seep into my balance propositions would be irresponsible of me and is very irresponsible of you.
@@Pragmeryeah, give him falloff unless it is a fully charged headshot. That makes sniper more of an actual “sniper”, perching somewhere uptop and waiting for a priority target, and taking the shot. If your aim is good enough, you can kill anyone from anywhere on the map, but you get an OBJECTIVE advantage for being in a high place, somewhat hard to reach, almost forced into tunnel vision, but with incredibly high potential as a reward.
Gold rush dustbowl and hoodoo being so high up really surprises me. Maybe its just me but I actually like being able to play the fucking game and move around without being spammed to oblivion in brutal chokes and not having incredibly drawn out games.
I'm a Heavy main, and even I'm starting to wonder about the degree of Sniper distaste. There needs to be SOME long-range sight-lines, as otherwise the class's function falters. Just like how you need flank routes for Scouts and Spies, and chokepoints for engineers. Yes, it's bad to have too many, but a few isn't just alright, but expected.
The issue comes when those sight lines never break up. A man in 1 position should not control the entire map. Shit he should not even control half of it. It's one of those things where the middle ground never comes up. It's all either harvest or wutville or pure hallway hell.
I don't know how you could go off on Borneo in particular like that. Maybe I have somehow avoided good snipers the hundreds of times I've played on it, but I've never thought it had overpowered sightlines anywhere.
Looking back, the entire Borneo section is completely false, as the sniper sightlines that Zesty Jesus describes are not even in the map due to TF2 BEING ON A 3D PLANE. Go to the map alone using the console, and you will see that he at best is exaggerating the sightlines, and at worst fabricating a non-existent sniper sightline. And this is one example I've looked into, there could be multiple instances of this happening.
I think Pier is everything I want in a map aesthetically. It's a great concept for an area and it incorporates the map's setting with the carts movement like the factory bridge and the roller coaster at the end. But what I really like is that it gradients into different settings as you progress the map. You go from a wild cove, to a village, to a factory setting and finally a fairground all in one map. With the final point being at the top of a roller coaster track. Which sets off fireworks as a reward for your victory. On top of being a night time map. Which I generally favor. I get the complaints, but I just go Vac to negate the sniper BS if there's to many of them abusing the straights. But honestly, I don't get many good enemy snipers on this map in my experience and can usually just push through. And the final push location is just a meat grinder with them being so close to spawn. It's always fun to get a small team together and flank from the coast and pop an uber to destroy the engi's nest in that little shooting range cabin. Objectively? Not a great map. But a really entertaining one. Which is probably why people love to gush over it.
Can confirm the Sunshine part. I was once playing trolldier, jumped behind the enemy lines and I was momentarily getting chased by 3 scouts all of which were sweating buckets, and I believe one of them were wearing lime too.
absolutely agree with 2fort invasion. i had bought a strange killstreak bison a bit before scream fortress and it was sooo much fun using it on that map because it fit the theme. tons of other people would switch to the bison too
Oh boi,i would love staying awake for Zesty Vid Edit:After watching this vid,i gotta disagree for most of his opinion because meanwhile the good map He said favor "all class",it definetely favor soldier the most.
Having a lot of long sniper sight lines in competitive is a good thing because a good team will only have a few snipers meaning they have the option of covering any route they want but they won't be able to cover them all. Having a lot of long sniper sight lines in casual is hell because there likely will be enough snipers to cover all of them, half of said snipers will be cheating and all of them will have a sentry to retreat to nearby. All the notable comp-heavy youtubers absolutely vouch for this style of map because they don't play casual, they play curated or at least cheat-monitored servers where both teams play seriously and play to win and in that environment maps like Borneo and Pier really shine because of the wide open space with plenty of routes. They are essentially built for the competitive environment and so in that specific environment they are really good maps. They're only good maps in that closely controlled environment however since all you need is a few too many snipers, a single cheater to make it through and sub-par team mates to make the map a hellish roll.
Powerhouse truly rocks I love Powerhouse from the bottom of my heart, is like seeing the whole team tryharding in casual in the most fun way, building ubers is FUN, sniping is FUN, playing trolldier is FUN, flanking is FUN Idk if is the 3cp format or the layout, but man I love it, I'm almost done with the achievement of winning 100+ games on PH and I'm not bored of it
1:05:28 i am one of the few weird people who like Hydro . i think the map need some balancing as changing spawn drastically when attacking different areas to better tell which route to attack . also making some areas less chokey .
@@The24thWight it's too chokey and it made for fast paced games or a painful stalemate. it's fit 6s more than normal tf2 and i myself not fan of 6s. but i love how the map look and it kinda neat gamemode that need to be reworked to work. badly designed maps can ruin a good gamemode. for example. i hated player destruction because of Watergate. then we got Selbyen. a map that made me realize a good DM game mode can work in tf2 if the map is well designed.
12:13 It's bummer too because I remember playing regularly on a set of finnish community servers that had pretty big custom map pools. Nobody really plays on those any more because they always want the same maps of upward, badwater, dustbowl etc. Those maps are good but you can only play them so much before it gets stale.
14:40 - why would you think people want to play on a community vanilla server? Vanilla is shit. Random crits are garbage, always have been and always will be. No class limits is incredibly annoying when either your team has too many deadweight low-power classes or the enemy team stacks high-power classes. Random bullet spread isn't that important but not having it on is at least more consistent and fair. People play vanilla casual because it's incredibly easy to get into and there are enough servers and players that if they don't like one because they're getting rolled/rolling, they can just re-queue for another. Community servers rarely have this advantage - oftentimes it's a stomp that isn't scrambled, or there's just not enough players. Your system has all the drawbacks of both and the advantages of neither - that's why no one plays on your server.
How do you find class limits fun? They’re needless change that only exists mostly on one server owners server I’ve had many times where I can’t repair a teleporter from a sapper because of class limits which is funny because I’m trying to do exactly what uncle Dane teaches ON HIS OWN SERVER but can’t And I just find the lack of class limits to be fun, part of the wackiness of tf2 I agree that random crits and spread being off is better though
@@AppaBoy How do I find them fun? For exactly the reasons I described; they contribute to a more balanced and fair game which is the most enjoyable way to play for me, and likely for most others too. You can't repair a teleporter? Well, the three Engineers already on the team should be doing that. Not you. Get back on the front lines.
I'd kick turbine to insufferable, it's just not fun, explosive classes and snipers completely shut down the map, the spawn exits are: a chokepoint, a vent and an opaque door leading directly to some very advantageous positions that enemies could be waiting for you, plus, if you're not on the team with the midcamping engineer... well your team doesn't get to play
Putting hoodoo above upward and bad water is definitely…a decision. It betrays a level of inner degeneracy I can’t condone. Seems like he just prioritizes hating sniper over actual map design principles. You can play around snipers on those good maps, but you cannot evade Hoodoo’s awful core design that destroys brain cells.
*Borneo is just sniper and engineer aids* HAHAHAHAHA dude I am screaming, it's kinda true, but to me it's by far the best payload map, which says enough about payload in general.
Man, snakewater, sunshine and metalworks are great maps. Snipers can be flanked easily. Every class is valuable here unlike dustbowl, where when you wanna play anything other than demo or soldier, you're fucked. The only flaw is that there really are many sweating and shouting tryhards, but that's not the problem of the map.
The point of Steel's chokepoints is that they prevent the "banging your head against a wall" style of play from being effective and instead forces attackers to try to use the flanks to relieve pressure from the central fight, say, you're attacking E with D still open, you can attack that to force some players to come and stop you, allowing the rest of the team to capitalize on E and maybe even win. The problem are those games where attackers immediately steamroll through every point but that's more of a fault of matchmaking being ass.
About vanguard: it came out after I started playing tf2, so later than 2014. I remember I had around 2k hours but never ever enjoyed playing scout; Vanguard helped me understand and enjoy scout. So it's a good one for me, even though I never get to play it
I think a lot of the most Sniper-dominant maps might be improved if they had lots more flank routes. Make the maps way more porous, and especially give Scouts and Spies more ways to get into the enemy's backlines and threaten entrenched Snipers. This would also help for cramped maps like Junction. Just add way, waaay more side-corridors and passages, and turn the whole map into an anthill. It would still be a close-quarters brawl, but at least it wouldn't be such a linear meat-grinder.
@@tbotalpha8133 i personally believe a mix between height and horizontal flank route is the best . tf2 is game really balanced in a way . that having the high ground give you so much power . i think a good example of this how in upward first point when . you have different heights and rocks . that make the map really good . of course the sniper sight line there is horrible in few angles . fixing that will make point perfect . koth highpass is probably the best balanced map in tf2 in terms of size flank routes and sight lines .
I appreciate maps like badland because they're the kind of map you can ONLY get in tf2. A map like 2fort invasion looks cool and those bombs ARE fun, but it doesn't speak to the uniqueness of tf2. I dont feel the tf2-exclusive ESSENCE on those maps. That goes for like Foundry, Well, and even like Yukon if anyone even knows what that map is.
What are your thoughts on CTF gamemode OUTSIDE of Tf2? For example have you played Unreal tournament 2004? It has a good CTF mode I think, it also has cool unique gamemodes I wish Tf2 had, like Assault, which is sort of like stort/mission map where attacking team has to do objectives(usually capture or destroy or go to x Spot) and defending team must stop em. It's such a nostalgia trip that gamemode, wish Tf2 had it
@@ZestyJesus I'm not saying it's not hypocritical, I'm just saying I love that impression. If I could pay you 20 dollars for you to send me that soundbite I would.
Another thing about double cross is that once you get the intel its very difficult to get out of that area. Youre basically put in a corner and spawning players can immediately get on your ass. Unless you can rocket jump to the battlements or spring to the sewers you will be shut down instantly.
Hilariously entertaining, the only TF2 youtuber who's videos i actually watch. Don't agree with quite a bit though, enclosure isn't that bad. Zesty, i think sometimes you forget you're probably playing with highly skilled players all the time, for others who play at a lower skill level, sniper lanes all over the place aren't as scary, when said snipers don't get kills as often.
I fucking hate steel. Damn near impossible to predict where people are coming from, God awful chokes, and spawn locations make no sense. The only good thing is that sniper is pretty mid on it
"Gullywash is my favorite map" I had a suspicion you were a soldier main but this confirms it! Kind of ironic how Gully was a popular 6v6 map for years and is beloved, yet process is hated despite undergoing a similar history
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 one would think that more flank routes and a less constrained environment would make Process **more** suited for 12v12 than Gully
asteroid (and by extension robot destruction) was the one map to single handedly solve all the problems related to CTF, and i will die on that hill it's not perfect by any means, i'll concede that. it's still very chokey, there's a lot of areas where engineers are too powerful, and there's not enough cover in mid. it was obviously never completed, so saying "it needed more time to develop" goes without saying. but the blueprints were there to make a radically improved version of CTF. you don't have to go balls-deep into the enemy base just to score *one* singular point. destroying robots, even just the smallest ones, counts towards your score and builds progress towards victory. both sides are constantly collecting cores and adding to their pool because, unlike other CTF maps, you don't need to wade through a million sentries, demos and snipers to grab the flag one time. and if you *do* manage to do that, you are significantly rewarded by being able to steal points from the enemy and add them to your side it's still slow yeah, but it isn't like the death marches on 2fort or turbine where there's just objectively no point in playing the objective because it will always have 3+ sentries camping the flag. CTF generally has problems co-ordinating players since its such a non-linear gamemode, but core collecting solves that problem because it's quick and easy to do, especially for classes like scout and pyro who have a much easier time competing in this mode because they don't have to worry about getting shut down by sentries or snipers it's also just a great looking map in a new setting that still managed to capture the TF2 experience. what amount of the visuals they *did* finish, anyway
I always thought Gullywash last was better in the days before it was officially added, cause the underground flank was flooded with water and that was way more amusing.
Take a shot every time I say "Sniper"
I mean its a recycled content but it would be interesting of you to do a video about your loadouts and skins in TF, Merry Xmas btw!
just got back from the hospital... I got to drink charcoal water, and get my stomach pumped! cant wait to play again next year !!!!!!!
Do you wanna kill us that badly?
(Don't do that)
Challenge accepted, liver destroyed, please send help
Powerhouse is a test of what team has a earlier bed time and it never disappoints.
No replies?
I ain't disagreeing with you but saying "This map is good until you have a 25,000 hour sniper on it" is about as unanimously applicable and obvious as going "This pizza tastes good until you pour a cup of bleach on it".
I feel any 10000 hour try hard sweat is gonna annoy you no matter what but yeah sniper mains are the worst
@@DOGMA20051True true, a choke point doesn't ruin a whole map with a 10000+ hrs demoman but it does with sniper because there is no single choke point, but the entire map
Zesty throwing in random text faster than two 9k hour snipers can shut down a map
Zesty does a really good impression of that one specific text to speech voice I was very caught off guard
That's the pd_Watergate announcer.
purple sheep moment
0:00 - Intro
1:54 - 2Fort
2:37 - Explaining the Tiers/Requirements
4:09 - Doublecross
5:07 - Landfall
6:27 - CTF Sawmill
7:18 - Turbine
8:55 - CTF Well
10:00 - Snowfall
10:56 - 2Fort Invasion
12:00 - Sidenote about Community Servers
14:39 - 5Gorge
15:15 - 5CP Badlands
16:01 - Coldfront
16:57 - Fastlane
17:56 - Foundry
18:55 - Freight
19:57 - Granary
21:49 - Gullywash
22:52 - Metalworks
23:20 - Powerhouse
25:00 - Process
25:49 - Sunshine
26:53 - Snakewater
27:43 - Vanguard
29:07 - 5CP Well
29:28 - Yukon
30:50 - Dustbowl
31:40 - Egypt
33:38 - Gorge
34:28 - Gravel Pit
35:23 - Junction
36:10 - Mercenary Park
37:30 - Mossrock
38:55 - Mountain Lab
40:23 - Snowplow
41:47 - Steel
42:43 - DeGroot Keep
43:53 - Standin
44:48 - Hydro
46:30 - Enclosure
47:34 - Badwater
50:07 - Barnblitz
50:24 - Frontier
51:16 - Borneo
53:47 - Cactus Canyon
54:08 - Goldrush
55:51 - Hoodoo
56:44 - Pier
57:56 - Snowycoast
59:09 - Swiftwater
1:00:07 - Thunder Mountain
1:00:55 - Upward
1:01:48 - Wutville
1:02:11 - Asteroid
1:03:27 - Banana Bay
1:04:03 - Hightower
1:04:47 - Outro
thank you sir
Starting with 2Fort, ending with Hightower huh..
jesus
touch grass
Okay, now do music
How could you disrespect Pier and Egypt like that
My heart strings
First to notice big Joey in comments. Also hi fellow Egypt fan
Pier is where joy goes to die
heavy main likes huge map where you have to walk for 50 hours to get anywhere? what?
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 Fr like, what? 😂 Pier I can kinda understand because that map has some chokes that are fun, but.... Egypt? As Heavy...? What? Lmfao
I'm surprised you like Pier as a heavy main since it's Sniper heaven.
I have a fond Mercenary Park memory and it’s when me and a medic killed a bot over and over again until they left. I was playing Fists of Steel Heavy and he was playing Vac Medic I believe. After the bot left me and the medic square danced and celebrated. I loved it.
yes
An aggressively WRONG tier list.
I'm here for it.
I think he's got a lot of based placings but some like Foundry being below CTF_Well and Powerhouse is painful. Powerhouse is a fun memey map so I can kind of get on board with it but either version of well is terrible the moment people remember multiple Engineer's lock down the entire game into an endless stalemate. The spawn being literally right next to the point/intel doesn't help either. Even 2fort has the courtesy of making Engineer have to walk back to the intel if he doesn't have a teleporter when he dies. However, some of the placements tend to make more sense when you remember who his favorite class is. A Scout main would loathe a lot of these placings, but a Demo or Soldier main would agree with most of it.
@@broom673 wrong wrong wrong, its all about coldfront being put below average
Exactly, especially when he put doublecross in “below average”
2fort might be a bad map, but the experiences of goofing around are unmatched
There should be 2fort successor map, like inspired and expanded by the original but with modern design and spacing
Actually Badwater and upward are more iconic to be. I used to play them all day. 2fort bored me to much.
@@ramburgervalentine7621 it's beginning to look a lot like dustbowl...
Which makes it a good map. Just because you don't get a COMPETITIVE experience from a map, doesn't make it bad.
@@ramburgervalentine7621 Those maps are more iconic in terms of playing the actual objective, not really just a map to do nothing but goof off
Drinking game: take a shot every time Zesty says sniper, and suffer alcohol poisoning 15 min into the video.
The demoman main checkpoint
1 hour of zesty proving that sniper is a defense class
Sniper is the best class in the game.
If you can aim.
Sniper is a defense class because whenever anyone suggests the idea that he might be a bit too strong, sniper mains immediately get VERY defensive about how he's fair and balanced
@@piratekingthaszar7912medic is the best class in the game
If somebody picks him
and knows how to play him
@@licemere9899 As a Medic main, we seldom get the choice not to pick him.
I love how you can hear Zesty progressively loosing more and more of his sanity as he explains Borneo
Sniper mains explaining how the issue is bad map design, rather than the fact that one class (Sniper) is so oppressive and strong in the right hands that every map needs to be specifically catered towards neutering his power, and if they fail to do so the experience is completely ruined (just respect the sight line)
Just dodge hitscan bozo lol 😂 - 99% of sniper mains
@@TF-Boom "Stop moving in a straight line." - the Sniper main telling the Scout who was double jumping in 300 different directions
“Just avoid the sight line” he says, in front of the payload cart
Yeah I agree with this coming from someone who usually plays sniper. He’s too oppressive, powerful, and desperately needs something done so that everyone can have fun without ruining the experience for sniper either. I think Zesty’s suggestion of lowering his ammo count to 10 shots max and nerfing quickscoping would be a great balance choice. 120 damage seems reasonable. Then perhaps rework or change his secondaries so that he’s weak up in close range as he should be.
When are we gonna get the official Sniper sightline tier list
Rated from “Respect” to “Dissin’”
One day we'll get a top 10 of longest sniper sightline in tf2
upward wins
@@bruschetta7711 Every sight line is gonna be from wutville
@@bruschetta7711we all know Wutville is #1 in that regard
"She call me Christmas cuz I came early" - Zesty
Edit: 1/4 through please make a community servers video to help save them
12:05 is just painfully true, imagine how many great servers we could have if they stopped trying to be diet competitive and if the players weren't runoff into casual mode
The only TF2 content creator that actually touches grass.
mr paladin is the biggest chad to ever make tf2 videos. while most spy mains are virgin degenerates or weeaboos, mr paladin is the chad family man spy main
@@triple7wv BASED
@@triple7wv Dude literally quit TH-cam to live in a caravan, mad respect
And rocks.
@@triple7wv Man outgrew tf2.
Ultimate chad.
Borneo is literally top 5 fun maps in the game. Always when I see I'm joining Borneo I know I will have fun with EVERY class.
You hit a lot of agreeable points. I'm a 6s player and even I know some of our maps DO NOT translate well into the casual design. You hit the nail on the head with this one. Can't wait for part 2.
Glad to see another Frontier/Barnblitz enjoyer, two of my favourite maps in the game. Very underrated
Also, RIP cactus Canyon, loved that map
Bruh fuck barnblitz last tho
Not very underrated, but personally more fun than badwater or upward
It's kind of fun how the community complains about sniper a lot, and the most popular maps have dozens of sniper sightlines coupled with engies that can easily shut down everything and protect snipers way too effectively
@@bruschetta7711 >likes barnblitz
>doesnt like engineers shutting down everything
barnblitz is complete dogshit, just goldrush with snow
its just chokepoint after chokepoint and the final point is extremely boring to play on both teams
How to make maps and TF2 better in a few steps!:
1. Remove/Hard Nerf Sniper
2. ...?
3. Profit!
Give sniper damage falloff, you instantly fix the "I died from some random pixel in a different continent that I can barely see". You force sniper to be reachable, or to take forever to charge up to full just to kill like one light class with a headshot if he wants to still be on a different planet from you. You can work it in, in a way where its still fun to play sniper, while making him an actually fair class. Make him become reachable by other gamers if he wants to actually get anything done, that way hes actually taking a RISK in order to get his REWARD. That risk is being a very squishy, very high priority target, near a ton of enemy gamers, and the reward is the power that sniper holds. Currently, sniper gets heavily rewarded, for taking absolutely no risk whatsoever.
@@onlyclownsreadthislmfao that's too much tbh. You're over nerfing the shit outta him. Sniper still needs to feel fun to play. All that your suggestions do is make sniper an even weaker class than spy. The problem with snipe is not his ability to potentially kill people really quickly with precise shots frequently. The problem with sniper is that he's able to fully oppress every opponent in this manner while being untouchable by anyone short of another sniper. Sniper as he stands does not have to take any risk to obtain his rewards. THAT is what is broken about sniper, NOT the potential to obtain overwhelming rewards. Force sniper to play risky to gain his rewards and you fix the problem while still making sniper enjoyable to play. Your solution is imo pretty poorly thought out and doesn't take into account the fact that we still have to make sniper enjoyable to play.
Damage falloff for sniper is a good middle ground between pulling a valve and making him useless, and keeping him as op as he is rn. I also think that FSoaS's clip idea would be a good combo with this.
@@onlyclownsreadthislmfao Making sniper incredibly underpowered because of your own subjective experience, because you "want them to suffer" is incredibly selfish and damaging to the game. It's a very careless notion that you have. Personal bias like that should not be taken into account when making balance decisions. The goal should be BALANCE, not "snipers need to suffer". Your nerfs would not make sniper balanced, they'd just swing the pendulum the other way. He'd be unbalanced bad instead of unbalanced good. If you can't be even a little bit objective when making statements about balance then don't make them at all. Your suggestions would negatively impact the game as a whole if they were to be implemented.
This doesn't come from a sniper main, this is coming from a soldier, scout and demo player. I get absolutely rolled by sniper all the time and it ain't fun. But letting that feeling seep into my balance propositions would be irresponsible of me and is very irresponsible of you.
@@Pragmeryeah, give him falloff unless it is a fully charged headshot. That makes sniper more of an actual “sniper”, perching somewhere uptop and waiting for a priority target, and taking the shot. If your aim is good enough, you can kill anyone from anywhere on the map, but you get an OBJECTIVE advantage for being in a high place, somewhat hard to reach, almost forced into tunnel vision, but with incredibly high potential as a reward.
21:31 Your "we are in the beam" voice is too good 🤣
Gold rush dustbowl and hoodoo being so high up really surprises me. Maybe its just me but I actually like being able to play the fucking game and move around without being spammed to oblivion in brutal chokes and not having incredibly drawn out games.
I like the moment where he said "It's Sniper sight line'n time" and then Sniper sight lined everywhere
Everyone knows Wutville is the best map.
Sniper main ????
Wutville is a transcendent experience that makes the christmas spirit complete
it is simply magical
I can tell this is going to be a good'un - Merry Christmas, Zesty!
I believe in Mountain Lab supremacy
I'm a Heavy main, and even I'm starting to wonder about the degree of Sniper distaste. There needs to be SOME long-range sight-lines, as otherwise the class's function falters. Just like how you need flank routes for Scouts and Spies, and chokepoints for engineers.
Yes, it's bad to have too many, but a few isn't just alright, but expected.
The issue comes when those sight lines never break up. A man in 1 position should not control the entire map. Shit he should not even control half of it.
It's one of those things where the middle ground never comes up.
It's all either harvest or wutville or pure hallway hell.
I'm glad someone is finally taking Borneo down a peg and giving Frontier the respect it deserves
I don't know how you could go off on Borneo in particular like that. Maybe I have somehow avoided good snipers the hundreds of times I've played on it, but I've never thought it had overpowered sightlines anywhere.
After watching this I just want Zesty in an hour video going over most popular tf2 maps and using paint to draw all sniper sightlines and engie spots
Looking back, the entire Borneo section is completely false, as the sniper sightlines that Zesty Jesus describes are not even in the map due to TF2 BEING ON A 3D PLANE. Go to the map alone using the console, and you will see that he at best is exaggerating the sightlines, and at worst fabricating a non-existent sniper sightline.
And this is one example I've looked into, there could be multiple instances of this happening.
Please make a community server that runs cool workshop maps, Zesty-sama.
He does, or did
Nobody fills.
@@Lone-Nep he just needs to shill it relentlessly to get the word out
21:30 Zesty has clearly played far too much Watergate
IT'S A FUN MAP
Zesty Jesus: 5cp bad because its just open space followed by choke point followed by open space.
Attack Defend maps: allow us to introduce ourselves
The real question. Does this count as Christmas special?
I think Pier is everything I want in a map aesthetically. It's a great concept for an area and it incorporates the map's setting with the carts movement like the factory bridge and the roller coaster at the end. But what I really like is that it gradients into different settings as you progress the map. You go from a wild cove, to a village, to a factory setting and finally a fairground all in one map. With the final point being at the top of a roller coaster track. Which sets off fireworks as a reward for your victory. On top of being a night time map. Which I generally favor.
I get the complaints, but I just go Vac to negate the sniper BS if there's to many of them abusing the straights. But honestly, I don't get many good enemy snipers on this map in my experience and can usually just push through. And the final push location is just a meat grinder with them being so close to spawn. It's always fun to get a small team together and flank from the coast and pop an uber to destroy the engi's nest in that little shooting range cabin. Objectively? Not a great map. But a really entertaining one. Which is probably why people love to gush over it.
Sinpers are living rent free in this mans head
Can confirm the Sunshine part. I was once playing trolldier, jumped behind the enemy lines and I was momentarily getting chased by 3 scouts all of which were sweating buckets, and I believe one of them were wearing lime too.
It's always pissed me off that Doublecross is just 2Fort but better yet 2Fort is more popular
Dude, you just saved my Christmas eve
absolutely agree with 2fort invasion. i had bought a strange killstreak bison a bit before scream fortress and it was sooo much fun using it on that map because it fit the theme. tons of other people would switch to the bison too
Oh boi,i would love staying awake for Zesty Vid
Edit:After watching this vid,i gotta disagree for most of his opinion because meanwhile the good map He said favor "all class",it definetely favor soldier the most.
POWERHOUSE GANG! I genuinely have always loved powerhouse since it was added. Never have a bad match
Having a lot of long sniper sight lines in competitive is a good thing because a good team will only have a few snipers meaning they have the option of covering any route they want but they won't be able to cover them all. Having a lot of long sniper sight lines in casual is hell because there likely will be enough snipers to cover all of them, half of said snipers will be cheating and all of them will have a sentry to retreat to nearby.
All the notable comp-heavy youtubers absolutely vouch for this style of map because they don't play casual, they play curated or at least cheat-monitored servers where both teams play seriously and play to win and in that environment maps like Borneo and Pier really shine because of the wide open space with plenty of routes. They are essentially built for the competitive environment and so in that specific environment they are really good maps.
They're only good maps in that closely controlled environment however since all you need is a few too many snipers, a single cheater to make it through and sub-par team mates to make the map a hellish roll.
Banana bay is my fav map since 2019 and it feels so nice to hear those good words about the map for me. :)
Powerhouse truly rocks
I love Powerhouse from the bottom of my heart, is like seeing the whole team tryharding in casual in the most fun way,
building ubers is FUN, sniping is FUN, playing trolldier is FUN, flanking is FUN
Idk if is the 3cp format or the layout, but man I love it, I'm almost done with the achievement of winning 100+ games on PH and I'm not bored of it
powerhouse fans sitting through 2 hours of literally nothing happening (guys stalemates are so fun)
As many TF2 creators keep appearing, I always come back to Zesty, you are the only one I can respect now a Days
1:05:28 i am one of the few weird people who like Hydro . i think the map need some balancing as changing spawn drastically when attacking different areas to better tell which route to attack . also making some areas less chokey .
the map needs to be a different map
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 i really love the aesthetics of the map and i do think a redesign can help it .
Hydro is cool. It's just. Not very fun. I'm not sure why but it's usually painful.
@@The24thWight it's too chokey and it made for fast paced games or a painful stalemate. it's fit 6s more than normal tf2 and i myself not fan of 6s. but i love how the map look and it kinda neat gamemode that need to be reworked to work.
badly designed maps can ruin a good gamemode. for example. i hated player destruction because of Watergate. then we got Selbyen. a map that made me realize a good DM game mode can work in tf2 if the map is well designed.
As someone who started playing at Jungle Inferno, Junction and Dustbowl are some of the worst maps in the game.
Finally, someone who loves Barnblitz.
Barnblitz last does feel impossible to push lol
This video reminded to me to queue for powerhouse again
You have an unnervingly good WillFromAfar impression.
12:13 It's bummer too because I remember playing regularly on a set of finnish community servers that had pretty big custom map pools. Nobody really plays on those any more because they always want the same maps of upward, badwater, dustbowl etc. Those maps are good but you can only play them so much before it gets stale.
No way did he put my fav map ctf_doublecross in “below average”
I can’t even
14:40 - why would you think people want to play on a community vanilla server? Vanilla is shit. Random crits are garbage, always have been and always will be. No class limits is incredibly annoying when either your team has too many deadweight low-power classes or the enemy team stacks high-power classes. Random bullet spread isn't that important but not having it on is at least more consistent and fair.
People play vanilla casual because it's incredibly easy to get into and there are enough servers and players that if they don't like one because they're getting rolled/rolling, they can just re-queue for another. Community servers rarely have this advantage - oftentimes it's a stomp that isn't scrambled, or there's just not enough players. Your system has all the drawbacks of both and the advantages of neither - that's why no one plays on your server.
How do you find class limits fun? They’re needless change that only exists mostly on one server owners server
I’ve had many times where I can’t repair a teleporter from a sapper because of class limits which is funny because I’m trying to do exactly what uncle Dane teaches ON HIS OWN SERVER but can’t
And I just find the lack of class limits to be fun, part of the wackiness of tf2
I agree that random crits and spread being off is better though
@@AppaBoy How do I find them fun? For exactly the reasons I described; they contribute to a more balanced and fair game which is the most enjoyable way to play for me, and likely for most others too.
You can't repair a teleporter? Well, the three Engineers already on the team should be doing that. Not you. Get back on the front lines.
2fort invasion better be ranked higher than 2fort
That was a great impression of Will From Afar (“We are in the beam!”)
Also, I totally agree regarding 2Fort Invasion.
2fort my beloved
I'd kick turbine to insufferable, it's just not fun, explosive classes and snipers completely shut down the map, the spawn exits are: a chokepoint, a vent and an opaque door leading directly to some very advantageous positions that enemies could be waiting for you, plus, if you're not on the team with the midcamping engineer... well your team doesn't get to play
Never let bro cook again 🗣️‼️🔥
most sane tf2 player
Putting hoodoo above upward and bad water is definitely…a decision. It betrays a level of inner degeneracy I can’t condone. Seems like he just prioritizes hating sniper over actual map design principles. You can play around snipers on those good maps, but you cannot evade Hoodoo’s awful core design that destroys brain cells.
Caw mills mid point in CTF is POINTLESS, get it? POINTless?
More accurate title: Maps sorted by Sniper dominance
*Borneo is just sniper and engineer aids*
HAHAHAHAHA dude I am screaming, it's kinda true, but to me it's by far the best payload map, which says enough about payload in general.
Man, snakewater, sunshine and metalworks are great maps. Snipers can be flanked easily. Every class is valuable here unlike dustbowl, where when you wanna play anything other than demo or soldier, you're fucked. The only flaw is that there really are many sweating and shouting tryhards, but that's not the problem of the map.
The point of Steel's chokepoints is that they prevent the "banging your head against a wall" style of play from being effective and instead forces attackers to try to use the flanks to relieve pressure from the central fight, say, you're attacking E with D still open, you can attack that to force some players to come and stop you, allowing the rest of the team to capitalize on E and maybe even win. The problem are those games where attackers immediately steamroll through every point but that's more of a fault of matchmaking being ass.
I think he hates sniper...
Don't quote me tho I'm not sure.
About vanguard: it came out after I started playing tf2, so later than 2014. I remember I had around 2k hours but never ever enjoyed playing scout; Vanguard helped me understand and enjoy scout. So it's a good one for me, even though I never get to play it
Zesty please make a video about the new weapon concepts that you would like to see in tf2 like the bio-breaker
4:19 the most fun way to play double cross for me is sticky jumper next to the sniper from across the map to then pipe them to death. Good fun
Deranged man screams SNIPER SIGHTLINE for 1 hour straight
Too much payload uncletopia has done wicked things to this man
0:52 why does zesty have jerma body language here
hes like jerma but arguably more insane
I'm glad someone loves 2Fort Invasion as much as I do
"But guess what, another sniper sightline"
why do i feel like Zesty Jesus is just Jerma but if he still played tf2
>"swiftwater is le sniper heaven!11"
>**proceeds to put thundermountain in a high tier**
this video make you realize that sniper probably the biggest challenge when comes to design a good tf2 map (then comes soldier and demo)
I think a lot of the most Sniper-dominant maps might be improved if they had lots more flank routes. Make the maps way more porous, and especially give Scouts and Spies more ways to get into the enemy's backlines and threaten entrenched Snipers.
This would also help for cramped maps like Junction. Just add way, waaay more side-corridors and passages, and turn the whole map into an anthill. It would still be a close-quarters brawl, but at least it wouldn't be such a linear meat-grinder.
@@tbotalpha8133 i personally believe a mix between height and horizontal flank route is the best . tf2 is game really balanced in a way . that having the high ground give you so much power .
i think a good example of this how in upward first point when . you have different heights and rocks . that make the map really good . of course the sniper sight line there is horrible in few angles . fixing that will make point perfect .
koth highpass is probably the best balanced map in tf2 in terms of size flank routes and sight lines .
I appreciate maps like badland because they're the kind of map you can ONLY get in tf2. A map like 2fort invasion looks cool and those bombs ARE fun, but it doesn't speak to the uniqueness of tf2. I dont feel the tf2-exclusive ESSENCE on those maps. That goes for like Foundry, Well, and even like Yukon if anyone even knows what that map is.
What are your thoughts on CTF gamemode OUTSIDE of Tf2? For example have you played Unreal tournament 2004? It has a good CTF mode I think, it also has cool unique gamemodes I wish Tf2 had, like Assault, which is sort of like stort/mission map where attacking team has to do objectives(usually capture or destroy or go to x Spot) and defending team must stop em. It's such a nostalgia trip that gamemode, wish Tf2 had it
Take a shot anytime zesty says "sniper sightline"
I might have played on your server, if I wasn't afraid I'd have to occasionally play with you lmao
I had fun on Granary once…
10 years ago.
6:27 SOS
They added 2 Fort Invasion to the CTF pool. I'm convinced because of this video
I fucking hate most of this guys opinion. But that impression of we are in the beam at the end of the granary segment is god tier.
and yet here you are, watching my content, giving me views and add revenue...
@@ZestyJesus I'm not saying it's not hypocritical, I'm just saying I love that impression. If I could pay you 20 dollars for you to send me that soundbite I would.
Dustbowl is one of the worst fucking maps in the entire game. Entire list is suspect just because its so high.
think i said this back when this stream happen and i said it again here- I FUCKING MISS cactus cannion it was such a special map and i miss it allot
Another thing about double cross is that once you get the intel its very difficult to get out of that area. Youre basically put in a corner and spawning players can immediately get on your ass. Unless you can rocket jump to the battlements or spring to the sewers you will be shut down instantly.
Hilariously entertaining, the only TF2 youtuber who's videos i actually watch. Don't agree with quite a bit though, enclosure isn't that bad. Zesty, i think sometimes you forget you're probably playing with highly skilled players all the time, for others who play at a lower skill level, sniper lanes all over the place aren't as scary, when said snipers don't get kills as often.
That doesn't make the map well designed, it just means the players are bad.
I fucking hate steel. Damn near impossible to predict where people are coming from, God awful chokes, and spawn locations make no sense. The only good thing is that sniper is pretty mid on it
"Gullywash is my favorite map" I had a suspicion you were a soldier main but this confirms it!
Kind of ironic how Gully was a popular 6v6 map for years and is beloved, yet process is hated despite undergoing a similar history
process is too big and boring while gullywash works better for 12v12
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 one would think that more flank routes and a less constrained environment would make Process **more** suited for 12v12 than Gully
You had me at "full of furry porn"
I will seethe with your ranking of Turbine and carry on with the video
And with 5Gorge, I shall cease
Mountain Lab for me. Fuck the 2nd point.
asteroid (and by extension robot destruction) was the one map to single handedly solve all the problems related to CTF, and i will die on that hill
it's not perfect by any means, i'll concede that. it's still very chokey, there's a lot of areas where engineers are too powerful, and there's not enough cover in mid. it was obviously never completed, so saying "it needed more time to develop" goes without saying. but the blueprints were there to make a radically improved version of CTF. you don't have to go balls-deep into the enemy base just to score *one* singular point. destroying robots, even just the smallest ones, counts towards your score and builds progress towards victory. both sides are constantly collecting cores and adding to their pool because, unlike other CTF maps, you don't need to wade through a million sentries, demos and snipers to grab the flag one time. and if you *do* manage to do that, you are significantly rewarded by being able to steal points from the enemy and add them to your side
it's still slow yeah, but it isn't like the death marches on 2fort or turbine where there's just objectively no point in playing the objective because it will always have 3+ sentries camping the flag. CTF generally has problems co-ordinating players since its such a non-linear gamemode, but core collecting solves that problem because it's quick and easy to do, especially for classes like scout and pyro who have a much easier time competing in this mode because they don't have to worry about getting shut down by sentries or snipers
it's also just a great looking map in a new setting that still managed to capture the TF2 experience. what amount of the visuals they *did* finish, anyway
I always thought Gullywash last was better in the days before it was officially added, cause the underground flank was flooded with water and that was way more amusing.
if you hate stalemates how is powerhouse okay
idk man, every time one of the teams cap mid it’s always a stalemate