Does being a member of a Gurdjieff group create fragmentation? | J. Krishnamurti
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ต.ค. 2014
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Brockwood Park 1980 - Question #8 from Question and Answer Meeting #2
'I have been a member of a Gurdjieff group. I find it has given me a background to better understand what you are saying. Should I continue with such a group to possibly help others, as I was helped? Or does such a group make for fragmentation?'
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What he said is that we should not depend on others psycologically, groups are good for learning, but the psychological journey is you and your mind alone, no one can help you in there. The most difficult work is the internal work. This is what most people don´t understand or don´t want to understand because real change means letting go of all superficial things.
Teachers are definitely not superficial. I would say for some people they are essential.
Very well said Paul
that's right!
What Krishnnamuti says here is : who do you think we are to “help“ others? That’s why he went away from Blavatsky because every religion/movement thinks to be superior to the other and will want to help others ! WTF he is right !
🙌 👏 🙏 🤝 👍 SO TRUE !!! Nothing is for free !!! AND: "All things leading to something GREAT are NOT easy and NOT paved." (M. Claudius)
I personally think Krishnamurti and Gurdjieff, and many more spiritual teachers are merely speaking of different paths to the same destination. There are countless paths back to who we really are. After studying both these men and others I found my path in something that is new to this world, yet ancient and beyond time called "The Steps to Knowledge" It is a hands-on, practical spirituality that provides clear guidance to reach the internal places both Krishnamurti and Gurdjieff describe.
Thank you.
Thank you
There's no Destination !!! When you gain enlightenment !! That's not a right way of describing it ...
Truth is a pathless land.
@@LuisRodriguez-wo6nl all is in All
the target of Gurdjieff was to teach how to discover ourself along a way of study of himself, not to save others..
you speak as if you know for a fact. How do you know anything if you cant even articulate your opinions properly ?
Gurdjieff, no body else🌿
Yes but you must teach others in order to remember and know everything you must know to (not Discovery, that's the first part, to Discover your Errors - but to Create one self and the soul) do the right Job 😊
Whatever groups which help you to understand who you really are, is ok for you, even the surfing group.
🙌 👏 🙏 🤝 👍
it is being tied to anything, whether it's a Gurdjeff group or any other, whether it's what's written in a book or heard in a speech that I always see as a detractor. We need to see all, take in all, without becoming anything. Once you name yourself, you start to loose the detachment you need to see. Everyone has a piece of the puzzle, Gurdjeff does too, but if you focus on him, if you identify with his work, you collaps the wave of all the other possibilities of seeing. Maybe that's what he meant.
+Dani68ABminus You seem to start out with the premise that the choice is between unlimited learning and learning limited by a group. In my experience the choice is more likely between being aimless or flitting from one thing to another and being focused and supported by the group/sect/book. Nothing is stopping me from moving on if I find a better place to learn, focus or evolve.
The jk perspective is of someone who himself has the perseverance and focus to self-study, self-evolve etc. This is a perspective typical of people who themselves join groups and perspectives and later decide that the experience is limiting and present the opinion that everyone else should just skip this beginning or intermediate stage of learning and just be their own teacher/master. without acknowledging how they benefited from that very same experience - and I don't know enough of jk history to know if he went through a similar process of elimination.
I noticed that people tend to discount what they push away from - what they eventually reject - as not valuable in their search toward self-actualization. That's silly. Being able to say 'This is NOT it.' is as helpful as when you can say 'This is what is true for me.'
+Citizen 26079 < I'm sorry not to go into your valuable contribution directly, but thanks for what you write ... So what is truth? > JK starts out here with the suggestive words: 'From order to disorder .. JK's life has been described as (well as is) unprecedented. He was forced (and imo abused) as a 6 year-old to become a worldteacher, even the promised one from (the many) scriptures. In 1926 at the age of 31 (- 6 = 25!), he rejected this role unanounced completely, right in front of his .. 'abusers' (MY term). It happened in The Netherlands during a - for his mission organised camp. What a sight that must have been! Also N.B: do not be mistaken about his awareness on many issues including the ones at stake in this video. A man with a high level of Initiation (read f.i. the biography by Mary Lutyens, The Years of Awakening). From order to disorder (and this relates to the G-work overall). In short I from experience, see it like this: Gurdjieff's central doctrine is his keshdjan-concept-of-the-soul. Topcontroversial stuff. After 15 - 25 years of living with the G-family in my perspective, simply a complex and viscious untruth ... or to any extend dangerously conscious lie. G. himself called his way the way against God, for reasons identified himself with Beelzebub and in his later years proclaimed himself Friend of God. All this and much more he took with him October 1949. This is a conclusive as well very SHORT contribution to this loaded discussion.
NB: Coincidence or not: Whatever I tried, the following odd sequence: ' OR 160; .. seemingly at random, kept appearing in my texts while posting it without. Also words have been deleted. Try to read over these.
+Hans van Mourik Hello Hans. When I wrote 'This is true for me.' and you in turn ask 'So what is truth?', I have to first step back and point out that in the context I address, I speak to the functional and personal truth of self-actualization. In my experience self-actualization is a point where a substantial number of experiences and insights become meaningful in aiding a person in a major step in their evolution or some task that is also meaningful to them.
This point often reconciles seeming contradictions and may give new and positive meaning to what may have been negative and painful experiences. What also may be present is a feeling of grace, acceptance and compassion, as what we may have judged as wasteful or a mistake, acquires a meaning in the larger context. So the 'true' to which I refer is the true of 'true course'.
Personally I've found more utility in learning to deal with uncertainty, rather than rely on a larger truth. I find myself now taking small bites of Gurdijeff's work and seeing if I can make them work for me. So far, for example, the work with sensations in the body has already yielded results. I don't know that I will ever reach a point where I might find application for something like Gurdijeffs 'central doctrine' .
+Citizen 26079 This is a very respectful approach. Thank you. In my own case there was an absolute hunger to understand issues completely before starting at all. This is in a way foolish as I have understood along the way, having been in 10 schools I have seen a lot and might even write it down at some later point. Coming back to JK's answer I would still like to point on his position as worldteacher as well as his deep realisation. Having in his presence 3 times I remember very well. Also topmembers of the G-foundation were present at his feet. G's central doctrine is tied to a specific belief, that is accepted too blindly as truth by the majority of his fans. A debate about this, that I consider to be of deep importance, is a hazardous undertaking and can in fact not safely be done in this context here.
I was a member of G's group for many years and I highly value this Master. But I must agree with Krishnamurti's point - he makes a valid point that men search for outside gurus and ways to enlightenment when they should be searching within. He rightly notes that a member of a group who just licked a bit of a second hand knowledge thinks he can help the world. (Inflation?) The Way has to be made within - with inner or outer guru.
Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." Higher consciousness is attainable by all who seek it.
Michalina Weld did you not noticed how he jk struggled with not just the question but in answering honestly with an I do not know...? Gurdjieff is the man. I like jk too but he flunked big time here. I mean a man with less of an ego would've been more honest.
Michalina Weld what is your background? Because our sincerity is dependent on how we dealt with our past. And joining a group may have brought certain issues to the fore.
both u and Krishnamurti are contradicting yourselves. sure the way is within and our own Self is our true guru. but until we make that realization our own, and outside guru is necessary. everything u know and everything Krishnamurti knew u have learned from others before u.
@@AZ-mq8oi and i respect jk work too but the "im glad u come here year after year i would too" part was cringe worthy
I found his conversations with Dr. Anderson very inspiring and quite unique. What really was beautiful was how Dr. Anderson would turn around teachings from the Bible from a different perspective and they would think nothing of it.And the truth is it is how it should be interpreted.
Gurdjieff said without a group man can do very little. J. K. was a part of the theosophical society for many years before he broke with them. He had already formed something in himself before he went on his own. What would JK be without his groups and followers? JK didn’t offer any practice or anything to follow. He just honestly questioned things. I think ppl exaggerate him in many ways.
He did all the time
Krishnamurti - Undoubtedly one of the greatest & most important thinkers of our time !!
The only downside I can think of when he speaks that humanity is lost in the pursuit of Enlightenment !! Is that this SPECIFIC TIMEFRAME that we are living being the year 2021 !!
Only a handful of individuals will attain such a discovery !!
Why because not everyone came here to experience enlightenment !!
There's different levels and degrees of knowledge that still need to be attain before the world as a whole reaches such enlightenment and even then !!!!!
Let me repeat it again
EVEN ATTAINING ENLIGHTENMENT AT A PLANETARY LEVEL MEANING ITS WHOLE POPULATION HAS ATTAINED THE TRUTH OF LIFE ..
THAT S NOT THE END GOAL !!
You see still continues Ad Infinitum !!
r e l a x
good luck
Such a pure message with eternal truth. Thank you for the question and thank you for the answer.
What was the message? Did I miss it?
@@rossboucher3413 The most important message is: "The map is NOT the landscape." !!!
He is just answering to the simple question. A question of a man who really didn't undestand Gurdjieff's work. If his aim was helping the others he really forgot something of a significant importance - helping himself/herself first. The Fourth Way actually never belonged to a particularly religious or a philosophical group. But it really requires strong discipline which alone is almost impossible to achieve. Krisnamurti is still simple and amazing, but he and Gurdjieff had different purpose I think, because Gurdjieff's aim was to awaken western people sleep which is much much difficult mission. Answers like this is comfortable for everybody - being a modern hippie.
You cannot learn with that attitude!
Absolutely. I agree! 😮
Great point
Evel_Knievel true, everyone wants to be told
@@MrFilmfreak90 If you can manage to guide yourself, that is good. But many people get stuck in recurring loops due to their own limited view, so sometimes it is good to have a teacher or a spiritual friend around to keep us true to our aims.
I liked his answer. Although he doesn't even need to know how such group operates to answer this question...
if you don't know and have the knowledge of your question about gurdjieff's group is helpful to you or not as an asker, you probably didn't understand the first rule of knowledge. true knowledge only comes from oneself, not from outside. Since if you ask him such question, he asks you back that why depend on me to answer this or depend on their group to be help people? because he knows only oneself can know the answer and yet he dares to ask this, and yet I see everybody is disappointed with him with in comments section. Maybe such disappointment comes from similar expectations that you need to know the answer from someone besides oneself. Which makes people question and disappoint more because they don't know yet that only oneself can answer such question.
Depend on no one, this is like the first rule. trying to understand and trying to gain knowledge is literally means depend on nothing but your knowledge. otherwise you learn and understand nothing. oneself knows what to do, how to do it, what is right and wrong, from birth, yet not if you don't understand you need to be independent.
Gurdjieff was in my “book” long before I started with groups in Italy; and realised it while experimenting his teachings led by a pupil of his. Great Master of life Gurdjieff! the only one for me.
I must agree with you, he is, indeed, the only guru. It is simply amazing what he is, I could not even say that he is a human, at least not a human by what we consider to be even enlightened human. I haven’t found anyone like him, if you have someone more modern in your mind please tell me. It’s too bad that is so hard to get in touch with people like him, who knows where are “hidden” teachers like Gurdjieff.
How do we wake up from sleep? What should we do?
@@Awareness_faith2024 nothing predictable perhaps.
@@serousetrick I’m one.
@@indreams22could you further elaborate? I'm not being sarcastic btw
I´m moving closer and closer to work in the bright daylight of normal daily life in all colours and ways, while I´m being a light onto myself, so that I can see what motivates me, and what tries to keep me in confusion or illusions that don´t work. Observing, shining my light on all that. No artificial tinkering with nature.
You're not the reader, you're the book!
You are not the dancer but the dance. :)
@@ruzickaw you are not the valley you are the path
Reading other books is a futile attempt to understand your book. Other books only help to know how they read their own books. Take clues to get into you the book unique to you individually, but the final page is the same as all other books.
YOU ARE THE BOOK AND THE READER TOO. BOTH.
K would have answered the same had he been asked about being a member of a local Zen sangha or the Red Cross. Some here seem to think he was attacking Gurdjieff.
I doubt very much that he was attacking anyone.
he was not attacking anyone. Why assume and contribute to ignorance and gossip/
Maybe not attacking but a sort of criticising...
Forget about G Listen to the message
O' Great Spirit whose voice I hear in the winds,
I come to you as one of your many children.
I need your strength and your wisdom.
Make me strong not to be superior to my brother,
but to be able to fight my greatest enemy:
"Myself"
~Chief Dan George
.
Many people try to avoid using the word 'I', to show or practice humility.The consequence of this is to fixate them upon the concept of 'I'.They get the reverse effect originally intended.
What is important is to know which 'I' is involved in any act or statement.This comes only through the experience of the various 'I's in a person.
-Idries Shah
Mulla Nasrudin Krishna to Arjuna BhagavadGita 18:66
Abandon all types of lesser dharma (lesser paths). Come and simply surrender unto Me alone! I will surely deliver you from all demeritorious reactions. Do not fear.
💯🎯
It's nice to see the anti-guru guru telling people that they don't need to listen to gurus.
@@daithiocinnsealach3173 is the phrase funnier vigilance from Kathleen and the psychicdynamics of liberation
@@daithiocinnsealach3173 which is what Gurdjieff spoke too ironically
More than answering questions, he always left more questions then those that he answered. And those that he answered it, he didn’t gave yes or no answers, he just pointed out to What people say and think, by investigation.if you do, because he doesn’t do anything, neither does he tell you anything, it its not his business to answer your questions for you, because he can’t only you can
Wrong Krishnamurti.
I took the antiguru advice to heart and ignored the antiguru advice because it came from a guru
love your work!
To me, his answer is not in conflict with G's system at all. Both K and G were teachers of humanity. Two lovely beings.
I was born into and grew up in the "Gurdjieff Group" in short I would say the teachings are an invaluable tool for self discovery, there are many people in the group that get this, & there are many people that don't . These people make themselves known pretty quickly through their behavior , As with any group if you do join, which I never did officially as I was turned off by all of the egomaniacs using the group as a safe harbor, upon further inspection if it's uncomfortable , you can leave. If you choose to continue your quest for self-fullness, then it was a stepping stone, but the work lives in the hearts and minds of many whether they call it the "Work" or no. The work is , in my opinion essentially about discovering the limits of your humanity. Humanity and existence is a gift that is a curse, or vice versa. This "Work" is one of many tools given to us to use for this purpose of self discovery.
Gurdjieff teachings, are the most ancient and radical way to revolutionalise the consciousness, many are called few are chosen, what exactly did you do with his teachings? Did you continue your bad behaviour? Did you continue wasting your sexual energy? etc, the problem is usually not the teachings, but us.
@spinozasdreams ? ? ? This is EXACTLY the description of our "leaders/politicians" !!!
I watched the first 4 minutes and K goes right to the center, right to the issues. He has a razor ability to cut through to what matters. The airing of the questioner's question is a launching pad for an inquiry. Forget about Gurdjieff for a moment. That is not the point. The point is, can you think for yourself, and delve into these very good questions in a beneficial way for yourself? Or do you long to be told what's what?
First ask yourself, what part of yourself is thinking? You first need to know that the part of yourself you think is thinking for you, is ego. You need a teacher to tell you that. Gurdjieff does that.
@@dekz8 to give some context: Gurdjieff talks about the structure of the mind, and the multiple thought processes going on in there. And he recommends techniques to understand them in a meta thinking way. It doesn't tell anyone to stop thinking, or meditate in isolation from real life. Their exercises are practical and technical for which you don't need to be secluded from the social life. And as for suffering, one of Gurdjieff's classic ideas is this: there are only two kinds of suffering: either you suffer unconsciously, or consciously. He suggests working on the latter, i.e. "conscious suffering" with a process of meta thinking (called self remembering).
And to address others in the main comments, the group work is recommended because of getting feedback from others in your "project". It's a matter of practical benefit. Working on a project alone will take a lot more time and possibly fail as opposed to working in a group of fellows. That aside groups are potentially risky, because of the fallible human factor. It is best to study what Gurdjieff produced himself to understand what he meant.
I feel like humanity's 'tragic situation' can be defined as not being aware that there are stairs to climb - by being kept in a state of ignorance, probably deliberately
Gurus, psychedelic's, religion, etc... can help you become aware of the existence of this staircase
But after that, we are surely alone on our journey.....
If you breath conscious y will never alone
NO ONE I know can handle this loneliness . . . they are all searching desperately for mothers / nannies (Gurus) !!!
動く彼を見るのは感動する。
What i can say about u......nothing...but one sentence.. U n your thoughts are like rain of love..in which i want to drench out💓💓💓💓
'My dharma (doctrine) is a raft. You use it to cross the river. When you reach the other side, you leave the raft behind for the next traveller- you don't take it with you.'
Good point, or reference. And isn’t the definition of the word dharma more like “method” rather than the more western (?) words “doctrine”? And some use the word “law”.
Because we are social beings and its natural to want to be loved and to belong and to be encouraged
"The Steps to Knowledge" could you please tell us more about It?
"Can't you stand on your own? Etc." Well, I am humble enough to admit that I cannot stand on my own and although I
BELONG TO no group, I do look for and value the assistance of others because I am certainly not a wise person and
realizing this, I do try to learn from others. So yes, I do need others to stand firm AND to innerly grow, and I admit it.
This K seems to be talking to people who ALREADY ARE wise, loving, wonderful. If his admirers believe they already ARE
like that, good for them (feeds the Ego well). I'm certainly not there at this point.
Honesty Fenix You are blocking yourself sir
Sounds like your ego was offended. ; )
Escape in the name of spirituality is common. Whatever one shall get from other-including from one's own thoughts and theories-may be at best be comforting but truth.
Is truth an acquistion?
Or that which IS, absence of illusions?
If it is, then anything external can 'definitely not' point out your OWN illusions, created by your OWN mind or self, for they(being theories) will add to the illusions you strive to discard.
I believe I understand Krishnamurti better than any other wise man. He and I have met in the 70´s in Saanen, it was profound.
I love how myman reads the questions and is like ‘cmon with this bull’ 😅
Don't agree or disagree to anything asserted,about unknown truths of life, by anyone including the speaker . This will make one free to look at the things for oneself with an unconditioned mind. I think j k wanted to say this. It may sound as if j k is contradicting himself . But there is no way to avoid this limitation of communication. Indeed it requires tremendous courage and intelligence to be able to stand alone and to be a light to oneself.
Jiddu and gurdjieff thinking is exactly same. Both critised traditions, religious and spiritual dogmas, guru cult, imitations, comparisons, to follow anyone, etc etc. In his book baalzebub tales to his grandson gurdjieff shows exactly like jiddu that all the spiritual tradions are merely repetition of past else nothing and etc etc .
But again we people again take it in a different point of view very strange. They talked about life which is a fact. But we made it into opinion.
He's not answering the question. Living only for yourself, despising any collective idea, means ignoring human nature and that is not wise at all. Everybody self-reflecting alone is not a leading anywhere - JK didn't think through this.
K has always answered or talked each word that nobody could get caught in any illusion.
Though he could talk more mysterious ways but he never did it.
is there an original version without comments?
+wesley taller Hi Wesley,
What do you mean by original version without comments? This extract is taken from a Question & Answer meeting held in Brockwood Park in 1980. The full-length video can be viewed for free here: th-cam.com/video/7p7lx-D1KOQ/w-d-xo.html
It can be purchased as a digital download at:
store.jkrishnamurti.org/Krishnamurti-Talks-Questions-and-Answers-Meeting-2-p/br80q2_v.htm
...and as DVD disc here:
store.kfoundation.org/video/public-meetings/2nd-question-answer-meeting-2
Hope this helps
J. Krishnamurti - Official Channel h
This is clear and to the point. Beautiful and timely.
Pues él estuvo en varios grupos antes de adquirir una "voluntad individual", antes de poder decir con propiedad lo que dijo. Es necesario "trillar" el camino para andar "descalzo" más tarde.
"You're not the reader, you are the book." J. K.
i believe everything has its own place..everything contributes to a man's transformation. one does not need help, or a guru in its right sense, only when one has gone through all those and has realized truth is something to be found out all by himself. A master or a Guru can show you the way. the problem arises only when the so called disciple calls himself by that name and gets attached to the Guru.
Look at what k is doing ...speaking technically, he is a Guru (dispeller of darkness) but he does not want the attachment and authority budding in and thus he stays away from all such names. in his talks, i have listened k thrashing Gurus etc, but what really is a Guru? he has never gone into that question deeply , he just plays with it on the surface and concludes Gurus are authority figures....which may be true nowadays but it was not so always in the history....There is no difference between a true Guru and truth itself, but attachment is the problem...if one is really interested in the problem , he would listen to a Guru and move on....but there are k's "followers" who are listening to him from 40 years.....they think they are not following but they have fallen into the trap despite k's warnings....in a bid to de-condition the minds polluted by modern Gurus (who arent actually ), K has conditioned his listeners unknowingly ...
young Krishnamurti was different ...much different , he would speak directly and now he is too conservative, may be rightly so...
I understand that you can have a meeting with some group to develop ideas but not be dependent on that particular group otherwise he could not have people listening to him all the time or else he would be denying his own words.
the author of that question was probably not a very attentive reader of Gurdjieff, since Girdgieff explicitly said that to want to help others is a very confused and wrong goal. The only possible thing to try to attain is to know oneself, to be master of oneself-which is also Krishnamurti's answer here.
When sat down to eat , on the floor Middle Eastern style , the saying goes , if after finishing eating you find a grain of rice on the eating mat , pick it up and eat it , it is yours forever.
I admire the magnetic deep Self worth of people like Gurdjieff and Krisnamurty they achieved their Christ-hood in them for them just notice !
how do u know Krishnamurit achieved a Christ-hood in himself? he sounds like a fool to me.
@@CT2507 He sounds human to me.
@@CT2507WOW, clever!!!!!!😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Be the book and not the reader.....profound statement
the comments show how stupid we are , most of the commentators not understand what krishnamurti said and they don't even knew j.k teaching , so i hope you change the world with your silly groups
I am surprised (not really, I suppose) by the number of commenters who misunderstand what he is saying. The tragedy is what nominalism has done to humanity. This is why so many don't know how to 'read' humanity, but still seek the match of another. 'Otherness' is hugely important. There is no 'I' without the 'Not I', making us irreducibly contiguous and continuous with all of mankind, emerging from our embeddedness in the universe. Yes, we are 'second'hand as in 'secondness' (Charles Peirce). One commenter mentioned the danger in naming, which is a key to understanding this. Goethe said "How difficult it is, to refrain from replacing the thing with its sign, to keep the object alive before us instead of killing it with the word". Krishnamurti is pointing to the need for us to recognize that once we understand our relation to the Whole, we will not need to join a group as 'part' of a 'collection of individuals'. But once we understand this, we do want to be around the beauty in the others who also understand. The mountain is not the mountain without the valleys and the sky. It is all One. Once one understands this, one doesn't seek to direct others, only to be in the presence of the others who understand. .... Associating with or promoting a 'collective' of nominalists DOES contribute to fragmentation of the Whole.
if there is a problem is on who made the question not in Krishnamurti ,not in Gurdjieff
lol...of course Krishnamurti could never tell an ignorant thing or pretend he was wiser than he was in fact. so the fault is with the one who made the question. cause u never put questions to a high and mighty illustrious wise and holy sage as Krishnamurti.
:)
omid beygi true, people should Watch it again, because they seem to have Listened to a complete different video
The word alone means all one...
"The whole history of mankind is within us." I used to nod at things like that but do i really understand it? Or does it just sound good somehow?
@@MrFilmfreak90 In order to engage in your "first aim", they already have to have an aim that would include the need for such things. So your "first aim" is not the first aim. And, "as above, so below" refers to the concentric universe. The cellular world is below the human world and the starry world is above it. So, as an example, the starry worlds have the laws that govern them but they are not governed by human and cellular worlds. The human world is governed by laws that include the ones governing the starry worlds then also laws that are unique to the human world. The cellular is under laws of both human and starry worlds plus laws unique to the cellular world. So we can learn some things better by looking to the starry world, some things better by observing our human world, and some things better by observing the cellular.
@@MrFilmfreak90 by laws, i mean that forces such as gravity, impinge on both the starry universe, the human universe, the cell universe, etc.. Yet guilt is felt on the human universe, the cellular universe, etc., but guilt does not impinge on the starry universe.
Why did you nod when you didn't know the truth of it? And why still you are wondering whether it just sounds good?
Just look whether it's true rather than guessing. Pay attention.
9 moths later its just the same feeling. No power, no essence no understanding of Gurdijefs teachings
No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
The strongest man in the world is he who stands more alone
@@omalone1169 "Seclusion and contempt are the prerogative of the strong!"
The part was something great.
Last part
a lot of wisecrying would say gurdjieff. identified with self expectations. gurdjieff veneered all religions and remarkable men. beyond man no. 4.
Yes
I don't think Krishnamurti did understand the question...
The question is: is it a good idea to join a study group in order to understand my mind and spirit in a better way?
YES IT IS!!!
Because we have to 'pass' our psychology, and because we are not used to do that, we need a clear description 'how to do' such thing.
And f.i. Gurdjieff groups are a very good possibility to learn more about your psychological conditioning. That gives you the opportunity to become your own inner guru. Than we are not longer
dependent to talks like this! :-)
only then u are dependent on the group! understanding of self cannot come from another
@@NoCenterTV Psssssssssssssssst 😁
Identification. All these Gurdjieff people reacting like Chelsea supporters.
I have worked with 7 people who were with Gurdjieff in Paris: George and Mary Cornelius (several work weekends), Pierre and Vivian Elliott (9 month and 4 month course) , Madame Stavely (one work weekend) Lord Pentland and Paul Renard (several times in CA and Oregon). Most or all are dead I believe. Paul Renard chain smoked Gauloises which did not make a lot of sense to me. Good luck to you if you think you will become man #5. Maybe you will. I did get a lot of benefit with the decision exercise which I expanded and turned into 3 masters degrees. Best of luck. I am not expecting anything more. Cant jump over your own knees. For me it created a lot of fragmentation but I know many people that it has helped. The Foundation people always treated me as an outsider in the 2+ years I worked with them. Then again it may have just been my choice in deodorant. Peace and Blessings
+William Dunlap .. 'From order to disorder' K's first reaction here.. Follow your own sense dont look back.
@W.Dunlap: 'Being treated as an outsider' has more than one side. 1) Workleaders use it a) as a test + to make you remember yourself and/or b) a way to feel superior, that is 2) then immitated by the lower ranks among each other. This 'climate' is to any extend present in all G-groups worldwide and derived from G's instructions .. 'Identification with the Master' plays another role in this complex situation plus a vortex of phenomena around efforts of selfremembering. Then 3) what I perceived is: in case one shows the least form of doubt in the ideas, one mirrors that doubt in the others, touching a certain fear of 'not belonging' plus a strengthening of the belief, which is what you 'get back' as being treated as an outsider. In general any belief is based on 'fear of doubt'.
+William Dunlap
God bless George and Mary. Oh, to be man #4 at least once a day....
I need a permanent aim. I need no longer be dominated by one centre, the body, the feelings or the mind. Most of all, I need to be on the way to having "died" - seen my chief feature and no longer be completely in the grip of false personality. All of this requires prolonged work in a school, led by a genuine teacher, a higher man. A man number four is in all other respects an ordinary man.
permanent aim is embroidred in life rob ... it IS you
😎🎈
The gurdjieff's method is incomparable...is the most important revealed secret to humans : "remember oneself ". No body ever talked about this, at least so clear explained! Krishnamurti talked beautiful, but taught nothing! 👎
Every guru was speaking about “remembering itself”. Gurdjieff was the only one to create a teachings around that, teachings for a modern man. The most of other gurus were creating religions around their expirience. Modern man doesn’t need a religion, modern man needs more practical thing as a method for remembering itself. I couldn’t remember, but maybe those were words of Gurdjieff.
I agree.
Perhaps you’re not hearing
@@serousetrick They were not.
Many people are waiting for a messiah. Why not each person become a messiah?
they...that's a good idea.
People can barley talk to each other let alone be real with themselves or the small matter of becoming a messiah
When you know you become silent.. is this not a language labyrint.. explaining what is the right way. Certain groups, understanding.. look at it. Apodeictic reasoning. Like: History is not in books, but it is here.. you are the book. And the book is telling you the story.. then you are a light unto yourself.
I am only investigating, you see
See all this comments and you will realize how our judgmental thinking mind works never goes jobless. Jk is putting it direct the truth, until and unless you know yourself how can truth appear. Only U can know U. For that dhyan awareness and just U r needed nothing else, since nobody in this universe can know "U" but Urself. How can you carry others there in your deepest core, where only u is all there is. No method no tools no techniques can help reach the core, only pure awareness still pure silence witnessing is core. Its simple method less, people r given methods to temporary stop monkey mind to have first glimpse of awareness. But if you r courageous, u can be aware without any help whoever it maybe. Even an enlightened being cannot help u, only u can enter Urself . That's the reality, accept it and you r just there. Dont let your ego your conditioning hamper , find the root source who is this me, ..
🙌 👏 🙏 🤝 👍 So true !! Only WE can know what is good for US. Okay - the masses are always w r o n g (Seneca) so they are utterly misleaded (85 % hate their jobs/lives. Soooooooo mad/bad/sad !!)
So yes, only some NOBLE FEW are capable to live truly happy satisfiying lives on theis own (IMHO)
Only 1,5-5 % percent I think (The chosen ones?) What do YOU think about ?
First we must depend on our own power
no its the other way around. first learn from others, then search and develop your own power.
The way people listen to JK, they can also listen to someone else if they feel like.
One need do nothing. NOTED, once again. UGH!
Except, maybe, have the courage to observe and notice when/how we go astray, deceiving ourselves one more time. Until we do it less and less, out of awareness which brings about change.
Please try to understand the answer. No comparing K with G
it seems odd he would say you shouldn't try to help others when I assume that's why he devoted his life to getting up and talking to people. that's contradictory.
not really.."helping others" presumes this person is capable of such..everyone needs to be their own light, "others" cannot do this for you..
He is against new age people and soccer moms "full of divine love". He is making a simple point, if you "are full of love" you dont *talk* about helping people.
Your comment is so obvious that those who dispute this conradiction don't even see it,.
People want to help others, but they themselves are fragmented, confused. In this state, how will they help? They may create more problems rather than solving.
First you need to help yourself.
Yes I can help others to disorder.I'm a great disorder specialist.
😁
Groups are ok if you understand your a right stone going into a tumbler with other right stones
Me my self only know I realised my inner being if I try to explain nobody will be able to believe me
🤔💙🌸🌱😀
Realization of preexisting conditions is not creation.
Of course he's against groups. Duh. Look what the TS did to him. I disagree with him though. You can be part of a group and not "name yourself" and still help others. I've learned so much from the TS, Gurdjieff's work, Samael Aun Weor and the modern Gnostics as well as Rudolf Steiner. I claim no sect. To understand JK's perceived "smugness, denigration, disappointment", or whatever you want to call it, you should understand his early life. He's still a human.
RevNowWhileWeCan he denies anything that the Theosophical society told him, You can read anything you like or want but you have to see through it and not get attached to any of it. He never spoke about anything as esoteric at all
RevNowWhileWeCan The name isn’t the thing, so you can read all the truth if you want, unless it comes from your understanding, it’s just words.that was always his point
Good points. In reading the comments, I replied to somebody that he sounds human. And you seem to have brought some context to the situation. I appreciate that.
Everybody has limitations. K asks some good questions in this clip, but they aren't real questions- only rhetorical. He's speaking from his head and the answers he supplies are only associative - not from a deep understanding.
I wonder if anyone who tried to follow K's teaching, such as it is, has developed anything real in the sense of being, beyond an intellectual or emotional interest.
+Tom Schultz
K did not provide a method of working, as far as I can see.
"I wonder if anyone who tried to follow K's teaching, such as it is, has developed anything real in the sense of being"... - No, I always felt him shallow, just reading his short book.
He didn´t intend that you or anyone else should "follow" him. That´s the main point of his teachings.
then that is their fault. K is a philosopher, he asks questions. He gets you thinking for yourself. He isn't trying to develop you. He's shining a light on you telling you that you have everything you need, that you have power.
Confusion between a "pupil" of Gurdjieff and Gurdjieff and his teaching themselves ...
listened it as sound of stream ... enjoyed .... Breaking down words left confused...
I think he has not understood the reason behind of gurdjieffs group works. It's not about belonging and feeling strong, it's about training and discipline and to have accountability partners
He's most definitely not being honest enough in the way he answered this particular question. Was it so difficult to say (just like Gurdjieff) I do not know? Gurdjieff the most evolved of the two said that I believe on more than one occasion.
when u are invested in the ego of the authoritarian teacher, it can be almost impossible to say "i do not know".
I have just started my exploration of G's work, but even too a completly newcomer like me it seems painfully obvious G is a beginning not a destination.
It's good to hear that as a "completely newcomer", you are astute enough to know what is a "beginning" and what will be a "destination" for you.
You must be very wise.
Well at least it's a beginning, so now proceed...!
YES< but what a beginning
!
I tend to agree with Princess Bubblee that Krishnamurti is a 'smug twat' and though I have nothing against twats - smug or otherwise - I have to admit that he does occasionally hit the nail on the head. "Why does anyone want to belong to a group/religion/club/cult?" The simple answer is to bolster one's ego.
It is only when one gets past that stage that real progress occurs and one begins to see that the ego was the problem
Amusing how he pokes fun at his own "followers"
Isn't wanting to listen to J a weakness unto itself? Second handedness in his own words. Isn't it conditioning itsef if you want to listen and read more to him and the other great philosophers. What drives J to have these discourses? Isn't this a desire of him to have the man think or do something in a prescriptive way? While its clear he is not prescribing anything, isn't he aware of the capability of the man to misconstrue the message as he has always been doing from the beginning of time and be a part of another cult or tribe.
The word "alone" means "all one".
I had not processed that since Ibsen
Have you seen the film by your name
@@omalone1169 yea long ago
Whatever he is speaking about is definitely not about Gurdjieff's group because it's not about those things at all. It is about real work on oneself.
And this man looks way too serious and sorrow. He could use some Gurdjieff work 😅
In many cases he showed special insight but in this case, he demonstrated a lack of understanding.
Tom Schultz The lack is on the side of the Gurdjieff fanclub, that is so identified with this man's life that they cannot 'step out of the hypnotic circle' ... G produced a beliefsystem that is based on a materialistic perspective and so lacks a true and complete spiritual view. And I donot say all of it is worthless. Besides K. was visited by G's family more than once, knows very well what is at stake here and speaks on this issue in a general and purposely unspecific (so loving) way. In doing so he responsibly refrains from throwing oil-on-the-fire as well as fulfilling his specific 'overall' role as world-teacher.
Hans van Mourik Hey man. Gurdjieff is much more than that
Omar Kayham: you are telling me, sir. i intensely was 25 years with his direct family and could talk your ears off your head. btw read my comment again (+ objectively if you can).
Hans van Mourik alright sir. So you were part of the Gurdjieff fanclub? your message shows it. I´m not sure you got it after all this years. And I did read your comment
Omar Kayham i knew 90% for sure how you would react (and it is a bad sign for further communication). tell me how do you even read what i wrote here? i can speak for 2 days + you have no clue whatsoever of what i would be able to convey .. show some unidentified humility and ask me a good question ..
He seems to be on an ego trip - Krishnamurti, I mean - and unable to grasp the meaning of Gurdjieff's work. He dismisses anyone working in a community with others as part of a sect or a cult - on the contrary, it is a way of working with others to raise the level of humanity.
So, that's a "no" then?
I disagree with Krishnamurti's assertion that you shouldn't depend on others. Others are sweet.
Can a book read itself?
yes! :)
+Kristine Leenders < yes we read it all the time ..
Kristine Leenders Where's the need for a book to read itself. It just has to realise that it's its innate nature. It is in its own existence...everything that it needs and longs to know.
Well... sounds like emotional rumbling without answering the question
I watched this very carefully, and I'm almost certain that Krishnamurti is not familiar at all with Gurdjieff's teaching. There is nothing wrong with it, but, in terms of reliability, it seems vague and disorienting when one tries to comment on the unknown.
I like how he says that you should not join any group but at the end says that you should join his group - what a wisdom!
😁
He did not say that
You didn't get the joke.
Look at the desperation of Krishnamurti at 6:42. Thank you guys to put this video here.
Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." Jiddu with his higher conscious thought spoke many teachings of Jesus.
yea...haha. desperation is a good work for his dumb face.
The more I look into Gurdjieff the more I realise there are no definite practices as such, but rather a lot of hand waving and unfounded claims. My conclusion is that if he did know something he was unable to pass it on. It seems very hope based and nothing else.
It's like assisting here to fanatical supporters talking about their favourite football clubs. Who's better Ronaldo or Messi? 😂😂😂😂
Yet he has a following himself? True master does in silence!
He doesn't need audiences
@@gcarbonari then why was he writing books if he didn't need an audience? do u think he was writing to the stars or the birds?
Being part of a Gurdjieff group is just the same as being part of a religion
how do u know? have u been part of a Gurdjieff group?
do u even know what the word religion means?
So why they belong to j krishamurti? is it not absurd?
That’s the tragedy. K, Pointed that out. listen to it again.