I think Kris is already very interesting as a character on their own without throwing in the knight stuff. I like the idea of Kris coming up with this plan of creating the fountain after hearing Queen explain how the fountains are made, even if we don't have all the pieces to figure out what Kris was trying to do as of now. And personally, when I first watched the scene of Kris creating the fountain I didn't think of the knight at all. I felt like this scene was the punchline of Queen telling everyone how to make a fountain. You think the world is going to be safe because Ralsei managed to stop Berdly from making the fountain and instead you get this "Oh shit" moment of Kris creating the fountain despite knowing exactly how dangerous they are. Figuring out why they would do it despite the dangers is much more interesting than trying to make Kris the same character than created the other two fountains in my opinion.
It's important to note that Kris plugged in the TV *before* Queen explained how to make a fountain. Unless Kris' original reasoning for plugging it in didn't involve creating the fountain at the end of Chapter 2, Kris had to have known how to make one by the end of Chapter 1.
@@cherrypuddles I am inclined to believe it was plugged in for another reason, because the dark fountain would be created even if the tv was turned off and abandoned. It may affect the story of whatever TV darkner ends up being created, but you would still end up with a tv dark world. After all, the entire internet is down in chapter 2, yet the darkners are all there, making internet references and being straight up internet based darkners like popup. So I don't find the argument that Kris plugged the tv to be all that relevant to their actions in chapter 2. It DEFINITELY doesn't serve as evidence for Kris Knight theory because wouldn't it be better for the knight if the tv was unplugged and abandoned? Darkners like King, who have been abandoned by the lightners, seem more inclined to trust the Knight and stop the lightners, which is what the Knight seems to want. Plugging the TV before making the fountain would make the darkners think "Look, the lightners are whatching us again" and make them less bitter as a result, which I suspect will be a plot point in chapter 3.
@@godoatthegoat2884 Interacting with the laptop in the computer lab prompts it to say "Someone left it on." This implies that, if it's a form of technology, turning it on will affect the Dark World created within the room it's contained in somehow. If this line wasn't a relevant detail, it wouldn't have been included.
@@UnoriginalJokester I do think it's relevant, but I don't think it means you just don't get a laptop darkner if the laptop is turned off. It just means Queen may have had a different personality if the laptop was turned off.
@bornasotoudeh4044 all good. the whole fandom is degrading into post-post-post-ironic meme chaos so it can be a bit hard to tell if you're not in on the joke hgfddf
Something that I haven't seen anyone mention is that in chapter 1 Susie and Kris entered the dark world through the janitor's closet but when the journey was over they were in the abandoned classroom as that's where card kingdom is so their positions upon entering do not matter when the fountain is closed only their end positions. All of the items collected are also in Kris' pocket like the spooky sword. The laptop is confirmed to be Queen if I'm not mistaken and when everyone wakes up they are next to the laptop. I think it's perfectly reasonable that Noelle and Berdly entered the fountain carrying their books, those books turned into trinkets in the Dark World, and spawned next them when it closed. Now I don't think it's the case and personally I think they were just in the middle of studying when the fountain was opened but I figured playing Jevil's advocate would be fun. The world was covered in darkness on the end game screen is something I had never considered, congrats on noticing that detail! For the sake of fun though I'm gonna try and debunk it as hard evidence against Kris knight. It's possible that the line "Then the world was covered in darkness" was the only line not directed at Kris but the player as without the player's manipulation of Kris' actions then Kris can go ahead with his plans whatever those could be. The dialogue having a different font could be showing not only the difference in speaker but listener as well. I agree with your analysis though and I just think that this was just another way of looking at things.
what *i* havent seen anybody mention is the fact that in chapter 1, kris is standing next to the light switch after the fountain is sealed. like @PurelessAgama said, them being in the unused classroom is probably bc they ended up in a completely different dark world. but kris not standing in front of the door that leads to the closet is weird if youre supposed to spawn at the light world equivalent of where you entered the dark fountain. like, susie makes sense, we heard her move before she turned on the lights, but theres nothing to suggest (iirc) that kris moved too, in fact itd be in character if they hadnt. so whats up with that (just so you know, im not a die-hard kris knight truther, i really dont mind either way, but its sth i noticed)
Kris being the Knight isn't even a bad theory, but it's obnoxious to me how people will assume that it's a 100% foregone conclusion and that Kris opening the fountain is a "smoking gun" when it really isn't. I also dislike how people sometimes use it to demonize Kris and make them worse than they actually are, which is giving me Chara flashbacks. For some reason, sort of strange, sort of creepy kids are assumed to be the most evil and malevolant creatures imaginable.
ikr, like kris opening that dark fountain is literally not evidence. theres no evidence for anybody being the knight, only suspicions. but yeah kris doing that is basically like seeing a guy murder someone while youre looking for a serial killer. does it mean that theyre 100% the serial killer? hell no. are you gonna put them in jail and question them anyway? of course
I will still continue to stand by my belief that Kris and the player in standard routes are not in conflict with each other, and the player is NOT the antagonist. The fandom has taken these "Kris is a puppet and wants to be free of the player's influence" theories and ran with them without a second thought to the point where it's erroneously treated as something that's already canon. I think framing the player as the antagonist regardless of their influence on the characters and world purely for the sake of being subversive isn't something Toby would do, it's at odds with Undertale thematically. I'm a firm believer that on the standard path, Kris and the player's relationship is more cooperative than anything. Kris shows autonomy several times even without removing us. The cart with the birdcage has been used before our arrival. Kris often makes their opinions clear during ACTs and dialogue options, but will begrudgingly go along with whatever we tell them to say. My crackpot theory is that Kris has been experiencing a groundhog day type loop where they have failed to stop the Roaring every single time prior to us showing up. The death dialogue from Ralsei and Susie are, like Undertale with Chara's dying memories of Asgore's words, a memory of a previous cycle where Kris falls at the final confrontation. The puppet themes coming from Spamton aren't quite meant to reflect the player's role, but rather Kris feeling trapped by fate. We aren't a puppet master, Kris is just desperate to see something change and trusts us. "The beads march grimly along their set path."
Point 1: There is nothing to indicate that the Knight interacted with any of the Card Kingdom residents. The game phrases it as "But, recently, a strange knight appeared... And three of the kings were locked away.", avoiding the implication that the Knight played any direct role in the 3 Kings being overthrown (besides opening the fountain and giving King the motivation to do so). One of the 3 Kings later supports this interpretation, stating that "when the Knight arrived, everything changed...", again using language that implies the only action the Knight took was the creation of the fountain (rather than saying "when the Knight attacked" or "when the Knight met the Spade King" for example). We also see Queen admit that she had no instruction for her plan, only "Guessing Based Off The Knight's Actions". I don't think it's unreasonable to believe King was doing the same, especially given how closely "The Knights' will" aligns with Kings' personal ideology. 2. Oh boy. I admit this is the strongest arguement you have, but I don't think it's quite a silver bullet. However, I have two possible counter arguements: 2a: In Chapter 1, the Castle Town Fountain is in a "inactive" state until Kris and Susie arrive. In this state, the only observable difference between the closet and its' light world equivilant is the lack of walls (and obvious amount of darkness). Therefore, it's possible the Cyber Fountain was formed the same way, giving Berdly the oppurtunity to place the books on the table while Noelle searched for a light switch. 2b: Firstly, it's important to note that where Berdly and Noelle themselves are in the room is completely unimportant (since we know the positions of Lightners after a fountain is sealed isn't where they entered from thanks to Chapter 1), leaving only the issue of their books. We never see the books anywhere in the Cyber World, so it's very possible that Berdly and Noelle kept them in their inventories (Dark Worlds explicitly follow RPG conventions so you don't have to answer why we don't see them carrying them), and they were placed on the table once the fountain was sealed. 3. The game can change its' tone without needing a diagetic explaination. You are being far too quick to assume that the less story-focused attributes of Chapter 3 must be a result of Kris making the fountain, especially seeing as the chapter would also be created on the Snowgrave route, where Kris would be incredibly unlikely to have the same priorities as they do on Pacifist. 4. Kris cannot die anytime there is not a fountain open. If Kris dies while a fountain is unsealed, it can continue upsetting the balance uninhibited. You could suggest that the Roaring can only take place if more than one fountain is opened, regardless of how long a single fountain is opened for (which would be unsupported by anything else in the game), but even making that logical jump, all it takes is one non-Knight fountain being opened later on to cause the Roaring.
What if "Then the world was covered in darkness" isn't refering to the roaring? From a meta standpoint I think the roaring is meant to be happening if the player resets the entire save file. The roaring happens when too many dark worlds are created aka the player finished the game and saw all there is to see. That you reset the game after that, to go for a second playthrough and choose all the choices and dialogue options you didn't choose in the first playthrough, is natural. You, the player, will bring the roaring by deleting the save and deleting the memories of the lightners. On the other hand, if you get a game over and you choose not to try again, the screen is literally covered in darkness because it's black since you stopped playing. The characters memories are not deleted but merely frozen in time.
I've heard all of these arguments before and the counter points i have aren't magical xylophones, but the third one i haven't heard before. I think that's a solid one, but the comment Cherrypuddels made addresses a good point about the ending and how the game doesn't need a in game explanation for a change in more gameplay.
2:49 If the placement of Noelle and berdly shows that they were studying before Kris and Susie went inside the dark world, then what about the placement of Kris and Susie? Kris and Susie jumped into the dark world from outside the room. Your Logic dictates that they should either be standing at the entrance of the room or outside the room as by your logic, that would be the placement that they should be. However, they are standing at the table, instead. Good video tho sorry if this argument makes no sense I made it while half asleep lmao
exactly, i think "but the books were stacked" is such a stupid piece of evidence because that means the knight made the fountain literally while noelle and berdly were studying and they didn't notice anything
Since they were sleeping when the dark world was closed while Kris and susie were immidiately awake makes me think they fell asleep before the dark world was created. Berdly really made them both fall asleep like rudy said
Before i start i wanna say that this video is not bad, its good, i just disagree with alot of the statements and assumptions you make in this video. With that being said: 1. Theres zero direct evidence that any of the Card Kingdom residents directly interacted with the Knight, even King. Sure King makes statements about the Knights motives but we know Queen was just making assumptions based on the Knights actions, whos to say that King is also just making wild assumptions based on his actions. Toby Fox has confirmed that the fountain itself was what was making King more powerful making it reasonable to assume that King himself locked the other kings away himself with his own strength. Plus the Knight HAD to have changed the dark world via changing objects in the room, otherwise the Knight would have been stuck there as we know lightners can't leave a dark world without its fountain being destroyed (the Knight would have also appeared at the end of Chpater 1 which they don't). 2. Dear god, ok so im not going to go over everything involving this part (some other people in the comments have already done that better then I could) so I would suggest watching a video made by @blackchestnut which goes into much greater detail about the timeline. With that being said I wanna add that, if the Knight made the dark fountain while Noelle and Berdly were in the room, they would have seen the Knight, other poeple keep saying that they were asleep when it happened which is why they never saw the Knight which makes absolutely no sense. Its completely out of character for them to just randomly sleep when they are supposed to be studying, plus theres zero other outside reason why they would be sleeping in the first place. Just to also add, your assumption about their positions need to correlate to were they entered is incorrect, if that was the case Kris and Susie wouldn't have even been in the unused classroom at the end of Chapter 1 or at the very least they would have been infront of the door leading from the closet to the unused classroom. 3. I'm not even gonna rebuttle this myself as someone else already did it better then I could so i'll paste in there reply here: "The game can change its' tone without needing a diagetic explaination. You are being far too quick to assume that the less story-focused attributes of Chapter 3 must be a result of Kris making the fountain, especially seeing as the chapter would also be created on the Snowgrave route, where Kris would be incredibly unlikely to have the same priorities as they do on Pacifist." credit to @cherrypuddles for that one. 4. During all the times where Kris can get wiped out a Darkfountain is still active and all it takes is one other person making more fountains to cause the roaring. We know that theres at least 2 people opening dark fountains (The Knight and probably Gaster) plus can anyone really trust anything Gaster says anymore?
@@PurelessAgama Its completely out of character for them to just randomly sleep when they are supposed to be studying, they're known to be diligent students, plus theres zero other outside reason why they would be sleeping in the first place. Not to mention the fact that they would have had to go to sleep knowing they were supposed to be studying, literally minutes after Noelle told Kris they would be studying there.
@@PurelessAgama theres no reason for them to be sleeping at that moment. Just becuase Noelle and Berdly were asleep when the cyber city fountain closed doesn't make it a universal set in stone rule. There isen't a fully stated reason why Noelle and Berdly were asleep at the end of chapter 2 but there are plausible explanations. Like, Ralsei could have used Pacify on both of them, sense we know he can use it outside of battle, plus they were in the dark world for at least several hours, fighting many foes along the way, so they could have been tired enough for it to work. And Ralsei heared Noelle talk about how its all a dream so he likely wanted to keep them out of trouble by backing up that belief. I don't even know why you brought that up sense it has nothing to do with what i replyed to you about. (them supposedly deciding to sleep at the beginning of chapter 1 when they are supposed to be studying)
Fr like I have nothing against him, and his videos are pretty cool and all, but there's no way he believes Toby would switch up an entire chapter's design just because of some random Deltarune TH-camr... Hell, he wouldn't change it even if someone huge like Jacksepticeye were to suggest it...
@@finixmoon127 That is NOT what he was saying lmao. He was saying he thinks Toby put that in the newsletter because he guessed what would happen correctly, not that Toby literally changed the story because of him lmaoooo. I don't agree with him but you misinterpreted him.
@6:36-.-That's actually an incredibly solid piece of evidence. This could be explained by our soul being destroyed while Kris is perfectly fine, or that Gaster is lying, but all of that would require making extra assumptions about things that would never established, so I would say this is really good evidence that Kris isn't the knight.
This is a good video, but i do have some gripes. Let's go over all the evidence provided and I'll give my thoughts. First, King: i will be the first to admit that King is the biggest wrench in Kris Knight, but i will also say that with the information we are given now we have no reason to believe that you can leave a Dark World without sealing it. Castle Town is the only exception to this, and even that is weird since Ralsei doesn't give us that option in Chapter 1. Did he not have that ability until he leveled up after Chapter 1? Did he always have that power and was lying about sealing the Fountain being the only escape to make us do that? Who knows, but until we get more info on that I'm hesitant to believe that the Knight has entered the Card Kingdom. Second, Noelle and Berdly's placement: it is very odd, and i don't want to throw it out entirely, but i will also note that if Noelle and Berdly were at the front of the room it would make the scene very crowded with all 4 characters standing in a relatively confined space, made it harder to pass off the dream excuse to Berdly and Noelle, and(probably most importantly) would've made it extremely obvious that Berdly was not sleeping at the end of the Weird Route. This is still a decent piece of evidence, and maybe it will be important. But it is also just as likely that an earlier version of this scene had everyone near the entrance, Toby found it to be too crowded, so he restructured it. Third, the closet: i straight up don't think this is in reference to the Knight, but is instead referencing Giga Queen. A bunch of computer stuff, a tall person could fit inside like say a tall mecha, earlier in the chapter some Swatchlings said they were cleaning the streets to make room for something big. I know this is just a difference of interpretation, but i have never read that line as being about the Knight. Fourth, Game Over: Now, this is interesting. When i saw this video, i was hoping for some new arguments, and you really delivered with the Game Over argument. I'm going to play devil's advocate here and suggest an alternative, but don't let that detract from the fact that this is really good. It is stated that the Soul contains "the fate of the world" so the conclusion could be drawn that if the soul is destroyed and doesn't come back then the world would be destroyed. Plus, from a meta standpoint, dying and refusing to try again would destroy the game world. That action is refusing to engage with the fiction, and if you don't engage with a fictional world then it doesn't exist. Fifth, Kris wouldn't do this: if the weird route did not exist, i would agree with you. I would say that Kris is just a troubled kid who wants to go on fun adventures with their friends and doesn't care about the consequences. But since Kris still opens the Fountain in the Weird Route, they need to have an ulterior motive that is worth risking the lives of Susie, Toriel, and potentially Undyne. That motive doesn't have to be connected to being the Knight, but to me it makes the most sense for that to be it. Whatever Kris is doing requires them to open a Dark Fountain. Are they looking for Dess? Do they want to level up by sealing more Fountains? Some secret third thing? It doesn't matter because whatever it is, i doubt they will succeed in their plan in Chapter 3, so they will have no reason to give up on it. It would be difficult for the story to juggle both the Knight opening up Fountains as well as Kris for the rest of the game, so the simplest solution is to make the Knight and Kris one in the same. Sixth, the newsletter: this is another really good piece of new evidence, and probably the best point you have in this video. I have nothing to refute it honestly. Like, let's pretend that Kris is the Knight for a second. It would be really weird to have the chapter right after that huge reveal be a story-light one. Even if not because of the will of the Fountain theory but just because it would be full of hints and nods and potentially direct story beats talking about Kris' goals. I could maybe say that it's possible Susie and Ralsei won't figure out that Kris is the Knight until Chapter 4 or 5 and that's why it's light on story in Chapter 3, but that's a pretty flimsy argument. Overall, thank you for pointing this out. And that's all. The thoughts on the newsletter and the game over message were both really good evidence(and were both evidence i hadn't heard yet), but i don't fully buy that this proves that Kris *can't* be the Knight. It does put some more weight on the side of them not being the Knight, but there is still a somewhat reasonable chance of that being the case. Personally, I'm 50/50 between Alvin Knight and Kris Knight. Again, this is a good video! Thanks for making it
With the Closet, while I did originally believe the same thing you did; that it was a GIGA Queen reference, I think it's kinda undeniable that the Mansion was the cabinet in the corner; it's said to have many mice and "servers" in it; the joke obstensibly being that in the LW it means "Servers" as in computer servers, but in the dark world it means "Servers" like butlers and stuff, ie the swatchling. This also lines up with how Card Castle was the Cabinet in the unused classroom.
@@CalamitasCalliope But GIGA Queen was. being stored in the mansion? If anything, the place where the fight would be would be on the tables, where the computers that become Cyber City is?
Two things: First: why are we assuming that is impossible for them to move inside of the room after the Dark Fountain was created? We have proof that this possible with the first chapter! Susie and Kris enter the Supply Closet Dark World and when they close the fountain, they are in the Abandoned Classroom. Also, Noelle was holding those books when she went in. We see her holding them in school 2: Why did you assume that Toby saying that since chapter 3 is not going to be so lore heavy, it means it's Dark Fountain CERTAINLY was NOT created by the Knight? Maybe the narrative reason for that is, since we had this big reveal, the next chapter is more lore light for the implications of the reveal to sink in by ourselves. Since, we should keep it in mind, this chapters were supposed to be released together.
@2:32-.-This piece of narration could be pointing to giga Queen, implying that that closet was what turned into Queen's Castle. @2:39-.-Based on what? After the chapter 1 dark fountain was sealed, Kris and Susie find themselves in a completely dark room, so we have no way of knowing where they were after the dark funding was sealed. So the only piece of evidence that can be used to infer any potential rules as to how lighteners are placed after the sealing of a dark fountain is the sealing of the chapter 2 dark fountain. While the dark fountain being created while Noelle and Bradley were in the room would allow for the creation of a consistent rule, it raises the question of "why didn't Noelle and Bradley see the knight?" Sinec Ralsei explicitly states that Kris and Susie couldn't exit the chapter 1 dark eorld until they sealed the dark fountain, and since all Queen had to go off of for how the knight made the dark World was the footage Birth of a Fountain, and since it's impossible to exit the chapter to dark fountain on her own, and since the only exception to this rule is the castle town dark fountain, which itself is explicitly stated to be an exception in other ways by Ralsei, it seems unlikely the night just exited the dark World after it was created. So maybe they used the smoke to escape? Well the end of chapter 2 seemingly implies that the smoke just goes straight up until it descends back downward to create the dark world, but even if we talked it up to magic xylophone (which I personally do find easy to do), wouldn't Noelle and Birdley leave the room and called the fire department if they saw smoke coming out of the computer closet? Wouldn't you? Noelle and Birdley at least don't seem to be courageous enough to try to put out the fire themselves, and if there's enough smoke to conceal a whole person, they probably wouldn't be stupid enough to do that either. And so they probably wouldn't even be in the dark world at that point. It could be argued that they were asleep when it was created, since it could be argued it was implied that enough time passed while Kris and Susie were in castletown for the two to fall asleep, but given how both Noelle and Birdley are ate at the top of their class, it would seem _incredibly_ out of character for them to so. In fact, the break in character needed to allow for this to happen could be argued to be a bigger plot hole then just there being no rule as to where lighteners get to placed after a dark fault in the sealed. If you look at the world building of Undertale (especially ghosts, essence, and Chara) it becomes quite clear only really cares about lore as a method of delivering wacky scenarios, developing characters, and exploring themes, which seems to be the major focuses of his writing style, so I imagine Toby himself would agree. Ever going to make all of these extra assumptions, then why not assume that Noelle and Birdley made their way to the desks when they enter the dark world? After all, we first enter the dark world in chapter 1 by going into the closet while papers are still "on the ground", and not fallen into the dark world. There was almost a sort of floor before they were forcibly dropped into the dark world. And the Castle Town dark fountain is implied to be way older than the other dark fountains, so there's no reason why a dark world created last night couldn't work the same way, which would allow us to keep this rule of where lighteners are placed after the saeling of a fountain, without having to contrive a whole bunch of extra stuff to explain how Noelle and Birdley didn't notice the night or the smoke, breaking either of their characters, or, importantly, eliminated Kris as a knight candidate. And that's the thing about this argument, it's entirely based on a rule that was never established. Some my arguments I gave above I didn't come up with myself, but got from a couple videos on why Kris _could_ be the knight, but when I first heard this argument, my thought was something along the lines of "I didn't think that was something that needed to be explained, but it's paired with some other evidence, so I guess I'll go with it", and someone I saw arguments that counter this one, I was like "yeah, that makes sense". Frankly, I never thought there needed to be a rule for where lighteners get placed after a dark fountain is sealed, it would just want to bother me that much, I wouldn't have even thought about it if people didn't bring it up. I honestly don't know why people want this rule to exist so badly, and why they don't feel the need to justify this rules existence. And to preempt people calling me a hypocrite for assuming new unique properties of pure dark fountains, but not considering that possibility when it comes to explaining away the weirdness that was entering the dark world in chapter 1, i'll say the difference is Occam's razor. There's already a lot of evidence to suggest that a dark world can't be escaped based on a combination of game mechanics and Ralsei's testimony, and since we already know from Ralsei's testimony that's there something different about pure dark founders when compared to normal dark fountains (that being, darkeners from other fountains don't turn into stone when they enter one made from a pure dark fountain), assuming this allows us to solve a seeming contradiction without making more than one assumption. Meanwhile, If we assume that the weirdness with entering a dark world in chapter 1 was something exclusive to pure dark worlds, then we will be assuming an entirely new property of pure dark fountains in order to… make it even harder to justify the existence of a rule that was literally never established. I frankly don't know why people are so gungho on this piece of evidence, when Kris's shambling is right there. Like, the only piece of evidence that Kris can move normally without a soul is them throwing themselves when they reentered the building (which is not something I imagined it would be able to easily take advantage of to get to the library), and debatably them seemingly walking normally upwards towards the sink (which I would definitely classify as a case of magic xylophone). So to me, Kris's limited mobility was always the smoking gun for this theory.
When Kris and Susie enter the dark world the first time it takes a long time before they fall. The dark world is not active fully until a lighter enters for the first time. Noelle and birdly could of easily moved into the dark room arms full of books to set them down and find the light switch and then fallen in .
I always think the reason why kris creating dark fountain are recruit mechanic from chapter 2 If you spare something they would be your ally in the darkworld more specipicly In ralsei darkworld Which was very good thing More ally more power we have Also because kris are the one who create the fountain there is chance darkner will instantly obey kris
1. About King not recognising Kris: In Ch.2, Queen makes it clear that she did not in fact meet the Knight, and was purely guessing at their motivations (really, she was projecting her own desires onto the Knight). It's likely that King was doing the same. After all, what are the odds that the Knight's goal is to create a Great Dark World and punish Lightners for abandoning Darkners? Very low indeed, since that seems out of touch with what they do in Chapter 2. But it seems EXACTLY like what King would want to do. And even if that doesn't convince you, it seems that you can't leave a Dark World without sealing the Fountain - so if the Knight entered the Ch1 Dark World, they would still have been inside it in Chapter 1, which would make their non-appearance very strange indeed. This makes the idea that King actually met the Knight seem very unlikely. I also disagree with the notion that the Knight interfering with the Dark World by messing up its Light World counterpart is lame. Those actions aren't "added" to the Darkners' memories, they actually do experience what happens to them in the Light World and can remember it. If that weren't the case, then King wouldn't be angry about being abandoned in the first place.
my god. thank you. i really dislike kris knight theory, because them being the knight would COMPLETELY overshadow whatever the hell is going on with them. the weird player stuff and kris just being a weird kid is already interesting and new, we really dont need to make them the knight aswell. The whole kris knight theory always just felt like people dont read into things much and just take things at face value. yeah, they made the fountain, and they are dressed in armor, but past there isnt much... and the game isnt even finished yet ! ive seen so many people argue that they dont understand why they would make a fountain at the end of chapter 2, especially post snowgrave route. the answer to that is called waiting for the next chapter when there will be an answer. this theory has always felt so shallow and a dumb cop out, that their weirdness can be explained just by "oh theyre the knight" just feels wrong and stupid to me, like their entire character doesnt matter...
The thing I don't really agree about the whole “But Noelle and Berdly weren't near the entrance after the fountain was sealed!” argument is that during chapter 1, kris and susie fell into the supply closet, yet they wake up inside the abandoned classroom next to it. So, it shouldn't be unreasonable to assume that movement in the dark world is sorta akin to the movement system in the nether in minecraft: a few steps in the light world equals lots of steps in the dark world, etc. Which is why I think that point isn't very plausible.
2:31 and Kris and Susie are infront of the computer instead of at the door. 4:26, I suggest not that your counter evidence is not invalid (as per invocation of magical xylophone), but wrong. As you suggest, people can change position in the light world between the time that they are in the dark world, as they would instead be slumped on the floor, as per your suggestion. Perhaps the dark world fufilled their intention of studying, but I suggest that it has to do with them being in a different place of the dark world, as Susie and Kris were in a different location of the Dark World. Alternatively, as Berdly and Noelle intended on studying, perhaps the dark world warped their locations in the Light world in order to prevent them from thinking it was anything other tahn a dream, as one counter point you do not acknowledge to them falling asleep on the floor is that it would be odd for them to fall asleep without having done anything. 6:23 That's correlation, not causation. Your last point however, is the main point that would prove difficult to prove wrong. You would be forced to assume that the Roaring would not be caused by the Knight opening fountains, or that Gaster is not referring to the Roaring. This may sound odd, but it actually makes sense when you consider that in Undertale, the game over screen has Asgore telling [Character Name] to stay determined, yet we assume the words to be referring to us. Thus, Gaster may be referring to something else. Back to my point about the Roaring not being caused by the Knight opening fountains however, the Roaring may actually instead be caused by putting a large amount of determination into a single fountain, as would happen if a soul were to be released into a fountain.
I think the argument that Noelle and Berdley were already in place when the dark fountain was made doesn’t seem to hold water. If that was meant to be a clue, you’d think their books would be open and they’d be in the middle of studying, right? Kris and Susie’s location in the room isn’t really conducive to where they might have just walked in in the chapter 1 fountain, so I don’t think that’s great evidence either. I think Kris Knight would be cool from a storytelling perspective, but I do think there is some evidence to the contrary. The biggest thing for me personally is how Kris kinda flinched back at the first dark fountain in chapter 1. Sure, that behaviour COULD be explained even if they’re the knight, but it would be really weird.
While i do agree with you, i do wanna point out that the chapter 3 dark world being different could also be due to the fact its created at night, since im pretty sure its mentioned dark worlds at night turn weird. I dont necessarily think thats why, but it is another possibility that i cant really find a defeater for. Still, a minor hole in what is otherwise a good line of argumentation.
Above anything, WE (the player) could never be the knight. Not even if our presence somehow lived before the events of Chapter 1. This is because King calls Kris the Lightbringer. WE are the light. That's why the soul glows all the time. That's why Kris becomes an outline, and Susie and Ralsei fade to black whenever you enter realtime combat. If we were the one to create the fountain, King, at the very least, would know and show some level of betrayal.
But people can move around in a room after they enter a dark world, after ch 1 fountain was sealed Kris and Susie ended up in the unused room instead of the supply closet
i don't think the discrepancy between berdly and noelle waking up in the computer lab is particularly relevant as the game specifically shows them jumping into the dark world which had already been created at that point. either scenes as evidence are good as one another. the dark worlds are based on objects in the rooms where they are made, as hinted at by the objects relating to things you see in the dark world, and also because moving them moves those things in the dark world to another fountain e.g. castle town. i don't think the form they take is implied to have anything to do with the particular creator. queen says that any lightner can make a dark world and she describes the knight as someone who 'thrust their knife into the ground' to create a fountain... which... kris is seen with a knife. often. specifically when they're conveniently walking off screen to do something suspicious, and we can't see them doing that. it's entirely possible at the end of chapter 1 kris created the fountain that leads to a cyber's world. as well as this, their knight outfit; it's incidentally missing a helmet. it could be to interact with the world as the knight that they wear a helmet and perhaps also a disguise, or the knight could even be two people; kris who creates the fountains, and someone who impersonates them and claims to have made the fountains in order to manipulate the darkners. however i think it's likely that kris has created some of these fountains; especially the ones for ch2 and obviously the one for ch3. its weird also, however, because theres implication in some dark worlds that other lightners have been there before the lightners in deltarune; like, the spamton neo suit referencing mettaton neo, and the shopkeeper in queen's castle saying that 'it was once very important to a certain lightner'... which kind of implies that mettaton had perhaps visited the dark world? it makes me curious, honestly. like is the suit there because it was made inside the dark world, or is it just in the computer lab somewhere? the internet is down, so they cant get it off the internet. but i digress; kris' actions are suspicious and they're a character i would consider for having motivations for making the dark fountains. it's also implied that they previously 'studied the occult' with catti's sister, which... might mean that the 'occult' in this world is actually just information about the dark worlds. she seems to know about them too? or at least she mentions something about noelle walking in the dark. so maybe they know about the dark worlds through that, for example. there's a lot we don't know about kris and at the points where the dark worlds are presumably being made kris is suspiciously missing or literally onscreen making them along the course of the story. they're dressed in a knight costume minus a helmet. they're shown with a knife. they're in a peculiar situation which could motivate them to do drastic things; being possessed by the player; and also strongly want freedom of their own, as shown by their reaction to spamton neo's strings being cut; i read that as them being horrified at the idea that freedom could kill them. they could be opening up the dark worlds in pursuit of answers or the power to be freed of this possession; there's a lot of possible motivations from even the little we know about them so far. wow this video really got me thinking on the plot clues we have so far lol. thanks for reading if anyone read this :) i just wanted to write all this down somewhere and work through my thoughts a bit after replaying ch1 and ch2
In my opinion, Kris is supposed to be a knight, just not the Roaring Knight: chess theory is a popular deltarune theory that states that each chapter's main boss is based on a chess, from their design, name and story role (Like how King only appears at the end and is pretty weak compared to future characters, or how Queen appears everywhere in chapter 2); If you notice, in chess there are only 1 piece for the queen and the king, while rooks, bishops and knights come in pairs: this supported by the fact secret bosses often reference the next chapter's villain, and Spamton talks about both Tenna and Mike which, if we don't assume Mike is a secret boss (which would be weird, since you would assume Toby would keep it a secret), would mean chapter 3 has dual bosses. So, if bosses not only reflect the chess piece role but also the number of them, it wouldn't be a stretch to think there would be duos for the others as well. Not only that, but if Kris was the knight you would think us, the player, would try to do something to stop them, but it's very likely we will fight the knight only in chapter 5, and i don't think we wouldn't do anything for 2 chapters straight. Also, the real roaring knight, in this case, might see Kris as a threat for their mission, forcing us to protect them (and strenghtening our bond with them) and giving us a more personal reason to fight the knight. To end this, it's more likely Kris will be chapter 6 main boss as it would be the pawn boss and they are our puppet ( or a pawn, you could say).
a lot of the other comments here have made most of my counterarguments already, but i'd like to throw in that half of the points in this video disregard the clear delineation the game makes between kris and "you," the player. when the game over screen asks you whether you want to continue or not, it's asking *you*-not kris. in the same vein, i'll also point out that the darkners often seem aware of both the player and the mechanics of the game in a way that frequently breaks the fourth wall, ralsei being the most obvious example. it's entirely possible that when king says "i shall shatter your heart to pieces," he's saying he wants to physically shatter your literal [[heart shaped object]] into pieces. mind you i know that sounds a bit like a dumb joke, and i'm not saying that's definitely it, but remember: toby fox made up an element that lets you turn back time if you die, and he named it "de-termination." that's the kind of man we're dealing with. just saying.
You forget something important: Chapter 3 prerelease material shows that if you enter the dark world while asleep, you remain asleep in the dark world. Which means that if they woke up in the dark world, they would have to be put to sleep again before it is sealed in order to be asleep in back in the light world, which was likely done by ralsei with pacify in order to help convince N&B it was a dream. So you cant prove that they were asleep before by saying they were asleep after, and the signs of a scuffle show thst N&B were almost certainly awake when they entered
Interesting would be a twist that the knight is Kris,and if we die, despite the soul shatter,Kris is freed instead of killed, and he keeps making fountains nonstop Tho there is no reasoning for that to begin with
One thing I would like to point out: the text when clicking on the closet doesn’t have to be irrelevant or proof that the knight was in the closet. I had always assumed it was there for snowgrave, and that when Kris gathers up everything in the room, they also stash Birdly’s body in the closet.
6:06 You said that ch3 being structurally different in how it is played and that it will focus on the plot less, But I don't see how that disproves Kris being the knight Perhaps you meant that due to the previous chapter's dark fountains being created by the knight, that means that in ch3 due to it being different, It will not have the knight open a fountain Though Toby could've very easily not meant it in this way, Maybe the darkners in this world will have no concept of the knight but this still does not mean Kris is not the knight
Perhaps a counterpoint to your last statement: it could be that the game over screen does not represent the death of Kris, but rather the death of the player's control over Kris - it is the soul that is in battle, after all. Perhaps the game over screen occurs because the player is no longer in control to stop Kris from doing Knight things?
"But come on, that's lame... it diminishes the Knight's actions greatly and reduces their threat level" If Kris is the Knight, then this doesn't actually matter, since the matter is likely not as simple as them being the antagonist. In fact, it would seem quite likely that their "threat level" was a red herring for the twist that we're actually playing as this supposed antagonist. So this is kind of a circular argument, starting from the assumption that Kris isn't the Knight to justify why Kris isn't the Knight. For Noelle and Berdly's post-fountain states - for one, it's out of character for Noelle and Berdly to randomly fall asleep instead of studying. Secondly, they're not sitting at the tables, they're standing or crouching while hunched over them. And third, the Spamton Sweepstakes strongly imply that when you enter a Dark World while asleep, you stay asleep. It seems unlikely this happened with Berdly and Noelle, who likely would've just been captured by Queen immediately given the opportunity. It also feels reasonable to intuit that the opposite occurs - if you leave the Dark World awake, you enter the Light World awake. A more reasonable explanation might be that Ralsei cast a pacify spell on the two to keep up the Fun Gang's narrative that the Cyber World was just a dream. Their books are also not open, but closed and stacked on top of each other. For Ralsei - he's just lying. Practically everyone in the Deltarune community agrees that he often comes across as shady, lying by omission or just outright not telling the truth, so this shouldn't be too much of a stretch. It's hard to believe that the Knight literally created the Fountain, and everything with Noelle and Berdly in the Cyber World took place in the timespan it took for Kris and Susie to walk from the School to the Library. But this is what you have to believe if you trust that Ralsei is being honest in that scene. Meanwhile, if Kris is the Knight it seems obvious that Ralsei is working with them. Chapter 3 being structurally different to the other chapters is a decent bit of circumstantial evidence in favor of Kris not being the Knight, that's hard to deny. But Kris Knight deniers have, in my opinion, much harder questions to contend with - for example, why does it seem so strongly implied that Kris was planning to create the third Dark Fountain from the night between Chapter 1 and 2 (plugging in the TV, narration hints like "It's not yet time to wash your hands", etc.)
Your first section argument basically boils down to "Nuh uh" but then you did say it was just personal preference so whatever (not sure why you'd use it as evidence then) And of course, "muh closet dialogue". Okay seeing as this ground has been trodden so thoroughly I'm not going to bother giving you a deeper explanation as to why this line of thinking is wrong but considering you, like most people who don't like the idea of Kris being the Knight will just say that this line of dialogue means what you think it means and offer no deeper explanation as to why we should believe that then I think it's only fair that I don't give you a deeper explanation. This one piece of flavour text doesn't carry a whole theory, it just doesn't. So if your response is anything other than a justification as to why that this one line of dialogue at this one point in the game must be interpreted the way you interpret it I'm not interested.
it's far more likely kris is just capable of wielding the same powers as the knight, rather than them actually being the knight, and from what we've heard about kris, they are far from a villain, they aren't even THAT mean, kris just doesn't have the motivation / driving force to do what the knight is planning.
Why not just.. you know... Asriel/Ralsei ? I mean, why would or can he move over to the Other Dark World and is unaffected. (Im not a Deltarune Theory conspiracist)
Welp. When this video popped up randomly in my recommended, I went into it with a strong suspicion that it would be the exact same collection of sh*tty, cherry-picked points that have always been used to "debunk" Knight!Kris with little-to-nothing that I haven't already heard ad nauseam, and my suspicions, sadly, were correct. At least you presented counterarguments, something most people don't bother to do, even if you cherry-picked weak counterarguments. Let's break this down, shall we? 0:40 King mentions the Knight a grand total of three times. Nothing he says particularly implies a one-on-one interaction with it, especially in the context of Queen observing the Knight and jumping to conclusions based on its actions and huge assumptions about its motives, and the established precedent that manipulating objects in the light world prior to creating a fountain affects the resultant dark world, as we see with Kris turning on the TV in chapter 3. The idea that King may be simply assuming the Knight's motives is underlined both by the fact that there isn't a clear reason why it would physically intervene in the Card Kingdom, but not enter the Cyber World at all, and more importantly by King's belief that the world would be ruled by Darkners, when in fact the Roaring would petrify all Darkners. King has drastically misunderstood the cause he is fighting for, *in exactly the same way as Queen did.* Both believed they could and would take over the world through the fountains, being unaware that they were in fact fighting for its destruction. 1:07 "It's lame" is incredibly subjective, and doesn't actually address the counterarguments you brought up(On top of the different outfits idea, which would make sense with the precedent of Kris opening fountains with their SOUL removed, given what exactly their SOUL is, there's also the possibility that King is simply acting as part of some greater plan between himself and the Knight. However, I'm more inclined to follow the "King, did not personally meet the Knight and is simply assuming its motives" interpretation given the evidence and context provided by chapter 2.). Furthermore, it absolutely does not undermine the threat of the Knight. It's still an entity that threatens to cause the actual apocalypse and who is capable of easily wreaking havoc in dark worlds without any apparent regard for the well-being of darkners. 2:24 And here we are, the part I saw coming light-years away. The goddamn books, the first thing to come up in discussion of what is, to be blunt, quite possibly the most idiotic yet widely-used claim I have ever heard from this fandom(which is already an incredibly high bar), the idea that the Knight made the fountain with Noelle and Berdly in the room. This one is such a bag of worms I will address it in a reply rather than in this comment to ensure I don't run afoul of the YT character limit(and more importantly, it's late where I am and I have to get up early tomorrow, it'll be a busy day for me lol), so I will just say that it's completely impossible and move on for the time being. See the replies to this comment for elaboration on that, if you don't see it I am either asleep/busy, in the process of writing it, or have forgotten, depending on how long it's been since me posting this comment. 6:07 No. Just no. This is such a massive, utterly ridiculous leap in logic. There are any number of reasons why a given chapter would be different from previous chapters. You have, without any evidence at all, not only jumped to the literal only possible interpretation of Toby's incredibly vague statement that supports your argument, but also... somehow concluded that Toby commenting on specific concerns he has for the next chapter is likely him directly addressing a specific theory video, which just so happens to have been made by you.(Way to stroke your own ego there.) Besides, it's bad form to use a theory as basis for another theory(Or more accurately, as a counterpoint to a different theory). 6:45 This has a pretty clear explanation. Kris is explicitly stated to be the only one capable of closing fountains. Without them, no fountains can be closed, and the balance of light and dark cannot be restored. Ralsei states that even one extra fountain is sufficient to shift the balance of light and dark and thus threatens to cause the Roaring. Hence, if the heroes fall within a dark world, the Roaring will eventually happen. Knight!Kris is by no means confirmed with certainty, but the fact remains that they are suspect number one. It is impossible to dismiss them as a suspect based on current evidence.
So, funny story(not really). I was literally sitting down to type out the continuation I said I'd make when I got a call from a family member that my grandfather was in the hospital without further context beyond that I should come. Typing this while waiting for my ride over to arrive. I haven't forgotten, I just am not in a good mental state to be writing about funny white dog game atm, and may not be for awhile depending on what exactly is happening. It's on my free-time to-do list for whenever I am ready to devote brainpower to it, though, I promise I'll get to it eventually, but make no promises as to when.
If Kriss is not the knight, why would they create a Dark Fountain at the end of Chapter 2? I know that I and many other have done this question, and I would like to give my own answer. First I realized something very important, something that always happen in Chapter 2 no matter the route, and it is Queen's explanation on how dark fountains are made, something that Kriss is present to hear. So what Kriss actually did at the end of chapter 2 is his own experiment in a controled environment, after all, they will have Susie and Toriel alongside them, which also leads me to belive that there will not be a weird route in Chapter 3 (Unless something that Kriss couldn't take into account enters the Dark World (cof cof Undyne cof cof)). Knowing the akward interactions Kriss has with Ralsei, maybe Kriss is also testing weather Ralsei will appear in this new Dark World or not. PD: Bro no way I finish writting this to see that the pinned comment is saying the same stuff
Congratulations for expressing the exact same fucking opinion as everyone else.🎉🎉🎉 (Not saying Kris is the night, but you know, bring something new to the table.)
My main problem with a lot of these arguments you're presenting is that they're very subjective. You say it's lame that the Knight never entered the Card Kingdom, but that's just your own personal opinion. You also say that Chapter 3 is going to be a different chapter BECAUSE the fountain was made by Kris, but it's far too early to say that's the case. Additionally, we're never given a definitive explanation of how fountains work, so to say the game over screen is proof that Kris can't be the Knight is just inaccurate. The only argument that has real evidence is the "Knight made the fountain while Noelle & Berdly were inside" thing. But my main problem with that argument is that the only way to arrive at that conclusion is to take very specific details from the game and interpret them in a specific way. Most casual audiences don't experience stories like that. I'm just gonna say this right now: if your argument requires to go back & interpret things in a way that you wouldn't think to analyze to such a degree on a casual reading, unless it's a murder mystery novel or something, that's almost guaranteed to be unintentional. The point is, I feel it's unfair to argue Kris can't be the Knight with what we have right now.
I think Kris is already very interesting as a character on their own without throwing in the knight stuff.
I like the idea of Kris coming up with this plan of creating the fountain after hearing Queen explain how the fountains are made, even if we don't have all the pieces to figure out what Kris was trying to do as of now.
And personally, when I first watched the scene of Kris creating the fountain I didn't think of the knight at all. I felt like this scene was the punchline of Queen telling everyone how to make a fountain. You think the world is going to be safe because Ralsei managed to stop Berdly from making the fountain and instead you get this "Oh shit" moment of Kris creating the fountain despite knowing exactly how dangerous they are. Figuring out why they would do it despite the dangers is much more interesting than trying to make Kris the same character than created the other two fountains in my opinion.
It's important to note that Kris plugged in the TV *before* Queen explained how to make a fountain. Unless Kris' original reasoning for plugging it in didn't involve creating the fountain at the end of Chapter 2, Kris had to have known how to make one by the end of Chapter 1.
@@cherrypuddles I am inclined to believe it was plugged in for another reason, because the dark fountain would be created even if the tv was turned off and abandoned. It may affect the story of whatever TV darkner ends up being created, but you would still end up with a tv dark world.
After all, the entire internet is down in chapter 2, yet the darkners are all there, making internet references and being straight up internet based darkners like popup.
So I don't find the argument that Kris plugged the tv to be all that relevant to their actions in chapter 2.
It DEFINITELY doesn't serve as evidence for Kris Knight theory because wouldn't it be better for the knight if the tv was unplugged and abandoned? Darkners like King, who have been abandoned by the lightners, seem more inclined to trust the Knight and stop the lightners, which is what the Knight seems to want.
Plugging the TV before making the fountain would make the darkners think "Look, the lightners are whatching us again" and make them less bitter as a result, which I suspect will be a plot point in chapter 3.
@@godoatthegoat2884 Interacting with the laptop in the computer lab prompts it to say "Someone left it on." This implies that, if it's a form of technology, turning it on will affect the Dark World created within the room it's contained in somehow. If this line wasn't a relevant detail, it wouldn't have been included.
The spade king meet the roaring night when he saw him even seam other characters saw the night kris this not night
@@UnoriginalJokester I do think it's relevant, but I don't think it means you just don't get a laptop darkner if the laptop is turned off. It just means Queen may have had a different personality if the laptop was turned off.
They're not the Knight, their name is Kris not Knight? Is the Deltarune fandom stupid?
@@Monkebs45 no
@bornasotoudeh4044 don't worry it's just a recent meme in the community lmao
@@CalamitasCalliope ah I did not know my bad
@bornasotoudeh4044 all good. the whole fandom is degrading into post-post-post-ironic meme chaos so it can be a bit hard to tell if you're not in on the joke hgfddf
"recent"@@CalamitasCalliope
Something that I haven't seen anyone mention is that in chapter 1 Susie and Kris entered the dark world through the janitor's closet but when the journey was over they were in the abandoned classroom as that's where card kingdom is so their positions upon entering do not matter when the fountain is closed only their end positions. All of the items collected are also in Kris' pocket like the spooky sword. The laptop is confirmed to be Queen if I'm not mistaken and when everyone wakes up they are next to the laptop. I think it's perfectly reasonable that Noelle and Berdly entered the fountain carrying their books, those books turned into trinkets in the Dark World, and spawned next them when it closed. Now I don't think it's the case and personally I think they were just in the middle of studying when the fountain was opened but I figured playing Jevil's advocate would be fun.
The world was covered in darkness on the end game screen is something I had never considered, congrats on noticing that detail! For the sake of fun though I'm gonna try and debunk it as hard evidence against Kris knight. It's possible that the line "Then the world was covered in darkness" was the only line not directed at Kris but the player as without the player's manipulation of Kris' actions then Kris can go ahead with his plans whatever those could be. The dialogue having a different font could be showing not only the difference in speaker but listener as well. I agree with your analysis though and I just think that this was just another way of looking at things.
I think Kris and Susie moved because they switched dark worlds and they would need to be in the dark world they are trying to close
what *i* havent seen anybody mention is the fact that in chapter 1, kris is standing next to the light switch after the fountain is sealed. like @PurelessAgama said, them being in the unused classroom is probably bc they ended up in a completely different dark world. but kris not standing in front of the door that leads to the closet is weird if youre supposed to spawn at the light world equivalent of where you entered the dark fountain. like, susie makes sense, we heard her move before she turned on the lights, but theres nothing to suggest (iirc) that kris moved too, in fact itd be in character if they hadnt. so whats up with that (just so you know, im not a die-hard kris knight truther, i really dont mind either way, but its sth i noticed)
Kris being the Knight isn't even a bad theory, but it's obnoxious to me how people will assume that it's a 100% foregone conclusion and that Kris opening the fountain is a "smoking gun" when it really isn't. I also dislike how people sometimes use it to demonize Kris and make them worse than they actually are, which is giving me Chara flashbacks. For some reason, sort of strange, sort of creepy kids are assumed to be the most evil and malevolant creatures imaginable.
ikr, like kris opening that dark fountain is literally not evidence. theres no evidence for anybody being the knight, only suspicions. but yeah kris doing that is basically like seeing a guy murder someone while youre looking for a serial killer. does it mean that theyre 100% the serial killer? hell no. are you gonna put them in jail and question them anyway? of course
I will still continue to stand by my belief that Kris and the player in standard routes are not in conflict with each other, and the player is NOT the antagonist. The fandom has taken these "Kris is a puppet and wants to be free of the player's influence" theories and ran with them without a second thought to the point where it's erroneously treated as something that's already canon.
I think framing the player as the antagonist regardless of their influence on the characters and world purely for the sake of being subversive isn't something Toby would do, it's at odds with Undertale thematically. I'm a firm believer that on the standard path, Kris and the player's relationship is more cooperative than anything. Kris shows autonomy several times even without removing us. The cart with the birdcage has been used before our arrival. Kris often makes their opinions clear during ACTs and dialogue options, but will begrudgingly go along with whatever we tell them to say.
My crackpot theory is that Kris has been experiencing a groundhog day type loop where they have failed to stop the Roaring every single time prior to us showing up. The death dialogue from Ralsei and Susie are, like Undertale with Chara's dying memories of Asgore's words, a memory of a previous cycle where Kris falls at the final confrontation. The puppet themes coming from Spamton aren't quite meant to reflect the player's role, but rather Kris feeling trapped by fate. We aren't a puppet master, Kris is just desperate to see something change and trusts us.
"The beads march grimly along their set path."
Kris probably doesnt like us controlling them but if the player doesnt act evil we will be more of an annoyance than an antagonist
Point 1: There is nothing to indicate that the Knight interacted with any of the Card Kingdom residents. The game phrases it as "But, recently, a strange knight appeared... And three of the kings were locked away.", avoiding the implication that the Knight played any direct role in the 3 Kings being overthrown (besides opening the fountain and giving King the motivation to do so). One of the 3 Kings later supports this interpretation, stating that "when the Knight arrived, everything changed...", again using language that implies the only action the Knight took was the creation of the fountain (rather than saying "when the Knight attacked" or "when the Knight met the Spade King" for example). We also see Queen admit that she had no instruction for her plan, only "Guessing Based Off The Knight's Actions". I don't think it's unreasonable to believe King was doing the same, especially given how closely "The Knights' will" aligns with Kings' personal ideology.
2. Oh boy. I admit this is the strongest arguement you have, but I don't think it's quite a silver bullet. However, I have two possible counter arguements:
2a: In Chapter 1, the Castle Town Fountain is in a "inactive" state until Kris and Susie arrive. In this state, the only observable difference between the closet and its' light world equivilant is the lack of walls (and obvious amount of darkness). Therefore, it's possible the Cyber Fountain was formed the same way, giving Berdly the oppurtunity to place the books on the table while Noelle searched for a light switch.
2b: Firstly, it's important to note that where Berdly and Noelle themselves are in the room is completely unimportant (since we know the positions of Lightners after a fountain is sealed isn't where they entered from thanks to Chapter 1), leaving only the issue of their books. We never see the books anywhere in the Cyber World, so it's very possible that Berdly and Noelle kept them in their inventories (Dark Worlds explicitly follow RPG conventions so you don't have to answer why we don't see them carrying them), and they were placed on the table once the fountain was sealed.
3. The game can change its' tone without needing a diagetic explaination. You are being far too quick to assume that the less story-focused attributes of Chapter 3 must be a result of Kris making the fountain, especially seeing as the chapter would also be created on the Snowgrave route, where Kris would be incredibly unlikely to have the same priorities as they do on Pacifist.
4. Kris cannot die anytime there is not a fountain open. If Kris dies while a fountain is unsealed, it can continue upsetting the balance uninhibited. You could suggest that the Roaring can only take place if more than one fountain is opened, regardless of how long a single fountain is opened for (which would be unsupported by anything else in the game), but even making that logical jump, all it takes is one non-Knight fountain being opened later on to cause the Roaring.
What if "Then the world was covered in darkness" isn't refering to the roaring? From a meta standpoint I think the roaring is meant to be happening if the player resets the entire save file. The roaring happens when too many dark worlds are created aka the player finished the game and saw all there is to see. That you reset the game after that, to go for a second playthrough and choose all the choices and dialogue options you didn't choose in the first playthrough, is natural. You, the player, will bring the roaring by deleting the save and deleting the memories of the lightners.
On the other hand, if you get a game over and you choose not to try again, the screen is literally covered in darkness because it's black since you stopped playing. The characters memories are not deleted but merely frozen in time.
I've heard all of these arguments before and the counter points i have aren't magical xylophones, but the third one i haven't heard before. I think that's a solid one, but the comment Cherrypuddels made addresses a good point about the ending and how the game doesn't need a in game explanation for a change in more gameplay.
2:49
If the placement of Noelle and berdly shows that they were studying before Kris and Susie went inside the dark world, then what about the placement of Kris and Susie?
Kris and Susie jumped into the dark world from outside the room. Your Logic dictates that they should either be standing at the entrance of the room or outside the room as by your logic, that would be the placement that they should be. However, they are standing at the table, instead.
Good video tho sorry if this argument makes no sense I made it while half asleep lmao
exactly, i think "but the books were stacked" is such a stupid piece of evidence because that means the knight made the fountain literally while noelle and berdly were studying and they didn't notice anything
Since they were sleeping when the dark world was closed while Kris and susie were immidiately awake makes me think they fell asleep before the dark world was created. Berdly really made them both fall asleep like rudy said
Dude the point isn't about Noelle and Berdly it's about the books. How would they get those out? They would be in their possession likely in a bag.
Before i start i wanna say that this video is not bad, its good, i just disagree with alot of the statements and assumptions you make in this video. With that being said:
1. Theres zero direct evidence that any of the Card Kingdom residents directly interacted with the Knight, even King. Sure King makes statements about the Knights motives but we know Queen was just making assumptions based on the Knights actions, whos to say that King is also just making wild assumptions based on his actions. Toby Fox has confirmed that the fountain itself was what was making King more powerful making it reasonable to assume that King himself locked the other kings away himself with his own strength. Plus the Knight HAD to have changed the dark world via changing objects in the room, otherwise the Knight would have been stuck there as we know lightners can't leave a dark world without its fountain being destroyed (the Knight would have also appeared at the end of Chpater 1 which they don't).
2. Dear god, ok so im not going to go over everything involving this part (some other people in the comments have already done that better then I could) so I would suggest watching a video made by @blackchestnut which goes into much greater detail about the timeline. With that being said I wanna add that, if the Knight made the dark fountain while Noelle and Berdly were in the room, they would have seen the Knight, other poeple keep saying that they were asleep when it happened which is why they never saw the Knight which makes absolutely no sense. Its completely out of character for them to just randomly sleep when they are supposed to be studying, plus theres zero other outside reason why they would be sleeping in the first place. Just to also add, your assumption about their positions need to correlate to were they entered is incorrect, if that was the case Kris and Susie wouldn't have even been in the unused classroom at the end of Chapter 1 or at the very least they would have been infront of the door leading from the closet to the unused classroom.
3. I'm not even gonna rebuttle this myself as someone else already did it better then I could so i'll paste in there reply here: "The game can change its' tone without needing a diagetic explaination. You are being far too quick to assume that the less story-focused attributes of Chapter 3 must be a result of Kris making the fountain, especially seeing as the chapter would also be created on the Snowgrave route, where Kris would be incredibly unlikely to have the same priorities as they do on Pacifist." credit to @cherrypuddles for that one.
4. During all the times where Kris can get wiped out a Darkfountain is still active and all it takes is one other person making more fountains to cause the roaring. We know that theres at least 2 people opening dark fountains (The Knight and probably Gaster) plus can anyone really trust anything Gaster says anymore?
Noelle and berdly fell asleep before the dark world was created
@@PurelessAgama Its completely out of character for them to just randomly sleep when they are supposed to be studying, they're known to be diligent students, plus theres zero other outside reason why they would be sleeping in the first place.
Not to mention the fact that they would have had to go to sleep knowing they were supposed to be studying, literally minutes after Noelle told Kris they would be studying there.
@@RoboVenom55 then why werent Kris and susie sleeping when the Fountain was closed
@@PurelessAgama theres no reason for them to be sleeping at that moment. Just becuase Noelle and Berdly were asleep when the cyber city fountain closed doesn't make it a universal set in stone rule.
There isen't a fully stated reason why Noelle and Berdly were asleep at the end of chapter 2 but there are plausible explanations. Like, Ralsei could have used Pacify on both of them, sense we know he can use it outside of battle, plus they were in the dark world for at least several hours, fighting many foes along the way, so they could have been tired enough for it to work. And Ralsei heared Noelle talk about how its all a dream so he likely wanted to keep them out of trouble by backing up that belief.
I don't even know why you brought that up sense it has nothing to do with what i replyed to you about. (them supposedly deciding to sleep at the beginning of chapter 1 when they are supposed to be studying)
There's no way you unironically believe Toby would be addressing your video lmao
Fr like I have nothing against him, and his videos are pretty cool and all, but there's no way he believes Toby would switch up an entire chapter's design just because of some random Deltarune TH-camr... Hell, he wouldn't change it even if someone huge like Jacksepticeye were to suggest it...
@@finixmoon127 That is NOT what he was saying lmao. He was saying he thinks Toby put that in the newsletter because he guessed what would happen correctly, not that Toby literally changed the story because of him lmaoooo. I don't agree with him but you misinterpreted him.
@@lake4433 Yeah you’re right my bad, pretty sure I typed this up at 3am or something 💀
@@finixmoon127 lmao I get it 😭 whole different person when I'm tired
2:38 could also mean as a space to put berdlys body for the snowgrave route
But nobody ever puts berdly there. Berdly is also still alive but just frozen so he cant move
i was thinking the giga queen fight
@6:36-.-That's actually an incredibly solid piece of evidence. This could be explained by our soul being destroyed while Kris is perfectly fine, or that Gaster is lying, but all of that would require making extra assumptions about things that would never established, so I would say this is really good evidence that Kris isn't the knight.
This is a good video, but i do have some gripes. Let's go over all the evidence provided and I'll give my thoughts.
First, King: i will be the first to admit that King is the biggest wrench in Kris Knight, but i will also say that with the information we are given now we have no reason to believe that you can leave a Dark World without sealing it. Castle Town is the only exception to this, and even that is weird since Ralsei doesn't give us that option in Chapter 1. Did he not have that ability until he leveled up after Chapter 1? Did he always have that power and was lying about sealing the Fountain being the only escape to make us do that? Who knows, but until we get more info on that I'm hesitant to believe that the Knight has entered the Card Kingdom.
Second, Noelle and Berdly's placement: it is very odd, and i don't want to throw it out entirely, but i will also note that if Noelle and Berdly were at the front of the room it would make the scene very crowded with all 4 characters standing in a relatively confined space, made it harder to pass off the dream excuse to Berdly and Noelle, and(probably most importantly) would've made it extremely obvious that Berdly was not sleeping at the end of the Weird Route. This is still a decent piece of evidence, and maybe it will be important. But it is also just as likely that an earlier version of this scene had everyone near the entrance, Toby found it to be too crowded, so he restructured it.
Third, the closet: i straight up don't think this is in reference to the Knight, but is instead referencing Giga Queen. A bunch of computer stuff, a tall person could fit inside like say a tall mecha, earlier in the chapter some Swatchlings said they were cleaning the streets to make room for something big. I know this is just a difference of interpretation, but i have never read that line as being about the Knight.
Fourth, Game Over: Now, this is interesting. When i saw this video, i was hoping for some new arguments, and you really delivered with the Game Over argument. I'm going to play devil's advocate here and suggest an alternative, but don't let that detract from the fact that this is really good.
It is stated that the Soul contains "the fate of the world" so the conclusion could be drawn that if the soul is destroyed and doesn't come back then the world would be destroyed. Plus, from a meta standpoint, dying and refusing to try again would destroy the game world. That action is refusing to engage with the fiction, and if you don't engage with a fictional world then it doesn't exist.
Fifth, Kris wouldn't do this: if the weird route did not exist, i would agree with you. I would say that Kris is just a troubled kid who wants to go on fun adventures with their friends and doesn't care about the consequences. But since Kris still opens the Fountain in the Weird Route, they need to have an ulterior motive that is worth risking the lives of Susie, Toriel, and potentially Undyne. That motive doesn't have to be connected to being the Knight, but to me it makes the most sense for that to be it. Whatever Kris is doing requires them to open a Dark Fountain. Are they looking for Dess? Do they want to level up by sealing more Fountains? Some secret third thing? It doesn't matter because whatever it is, i doubt they will succeed in their plan in Chapter 3, so they will have no reason to give up on it. It would be difficult for the story to juggle both the Knight opening up Fountains as well as Kris for the rest of the game, so the simplest solution is to make the Knight and Kris one in the same.
Sixth, the newsletter: this is another really good piece of new evidence, and probably the best point you have in this video. I have nothing to refute it honestly. Like, let's pretend that Kris is the Knight for a second. It would be really weird to have the chapter right after that huge reveal be a story-light one. Even if not because of the will of the Fountain theory but just because it would be full of hints and nods and potentially direct story beats talking about Kris' goals. I could maybe say that it's possible Susie and Ralsei won't figure out that Kris is the Knight until Chapter 4 or 5 and that's why it's light on story in Chapter 3, but that's a pretty flimsy argument. Overall, thank you for pointing this out.
And that's all. The thoughts on the newsletter and the game over message were both really good evidence(and were both evidence i hadn't heard yet), but i don't fully buy that this proves that Kris *can't* be the Knight. It does put some more weight on the side of them not being the Knight, but there is still a somewhat reasonable chance of that being the case. Personally, I'm 50/50 between Alvin Knight and Kris Knight.
Again, this is a good video! Thanks for making it
With the Closet, while I did originally believe the same thing you did; that it was a GIGA Queen reference, I think it's kinda undeniable that the Mansion was the cabinet in the corner; it's said to have many mice and "servers" in it; the joke obstensibly being that in the LW it means "Servers" as in computer servers, but in the dark world it means "Servers" like butlers and stuff, ie the swatchling. This also lines up with how Card Castle was the Cabinet in the unused classroom.
@BrixVGM I do agree with the cabinet yeah. I saw it as a representation of the location you fight the queen in
holy hell its that guy on the homestuck videos
@@CalamitasCalliope But GIGA Queen was. being stored in the mansion? If anything, the place where the fight would be would be on the tables, where the computers that become Cyber City is?
@BrixVGM also true, but space is a bit wobbly with Dark World stuff. For example, Queen's laptop is on the table instead of in the cabinet
If king says "Shatter your heart" then maybe Kris is trying to get rid of us.
Kris would die if they went a long time without it.
@@PurelessAgama 🤷
@@PurelessAgama Flowy is soulless and Chara is too. They can live forever without their souls why couldn't Kris?
@@mattcatt1165 chara is basically a zombie and flowey already died once and has determination
Two things:
First: why are we assuming that is impossible for them to move inside of the room after the Dark Fountain was created? We have proof that this possible with the first chapter! Susie and Kris enter the Supply Closet Dark World and when they close the fountain, they are in the Abandoned Classroom. Also, Noelle was holding those books when she went in. We see her holding them in school
2: Why did you assume that Toby saying that since chapter 3 is not going to be so lore heavy, it means it's Dark Fountain CERTAINLY was NOT created by the Knight? Maybe the narrative reason for that is, since we had this big reveal, the next chapter is more lore light for the implications of the reveal to sink in by ourselves. Since, we should keep it in mind, this chapters were supposed to be released together.
Yeah. Isnt it obvious the dog is the knight
@2:32-.-This piece of narration could be pointing to giga Queen, implying that that closet was what turned into Queen's Castle.
@2:39-.-Based on what? After the chapter 1 dark fountain was sealed, Kris and Susie find themselves in a completely dark room, so we have no way of knowing where they were after the dark funding was sealed. So the only piece of evidence that can be used to infer any potential rules as to how lighteners are placed after the sealing of a dark fountain is the sealing of the chapter 2 dark fountain.
While the dark fountain being created while Noelle and Bradley were in the room would allow for the creation of a consistent rule, it raises the question of "why didn't Noelle and Bradley see the knight?" Sinec Ralsei explicitly states that Kris and Susie couldn't exit the chapter 1 dark eorld until they sealed the dark fountain, and since all Queen had to go off of for how the knight made the dark World was the footage Birth of a Fountain, and since it's impossible to exit the chapter to dark fountain on her own, and since the only exception to this rule is the castle town dark fountain, which itself is explicitly stated to be an exception in other ways by Ralsei, it seems unlikely the night just exited the dark World after it was created. So maybe they used the smoke to escape? Well the end of chapter 2 seemingly implies that the smoke just goes straight up until it descends back downward to create the dark world, but even if we talked it up to magic xylophone (which I personally do find easy to do), wouldn't Noelle and Birdley leave the room and called the fire department if they saw smoke coming out of the computer closet? Wouldn't you? Noelle and Birdley at least don't seem to be courageous enough to try to put out the fire themselves, and if there's enough smoke to conceal a whole person, they probably wouldn't be stupid enough to do that either. And so they probably wouldn't even be in the dark world at that point. It could be argued that they were asleep when it was created, since it could be argued it was implied that enough time passed while Kris and Susie were in castletown for the two to fall asleep, but given how both Noelle and Birdley are ate at the top of their class, it would seem _incredibly_ out of character for them to so. In fact, the break in character needed to allow for this to happen could be argued to be a bigger plot hole then just there being no rule as to where lighteners get to placed after a dark fault in the sealed. If you look at the world building of Undertale (especially ghosts, essence, and Chara) it becomes quite clear only really cares about lore as a method of delivering wacky scenarios, developing characters, and exploring themes, which seems to be the major focuses of his writing style, so I imagine Toby himself would agree.
Ever going to make all of these extra assumptions, then why not assume that Noelle and Birdley made their way to the desks when they enter the dark world? After all, we first enter the dark world in chapter 1 by going into the closet while papers are still "on the ground", and not fallen into the dark world. There was almost a sort of floor before they were forcibly dropped into the dark world. And the Castle Town dark fountain is implied to be way older than the other dark fountains, so there's no reason why a dark world created last night couldn't work the same way, which would allow us to keep this rule of where lighteners are placed after the saeling of a fountain, without having to contrive a whole bunch of extra stuff to explain how Noelle and Birdley didn't notice the night or the smoke, breaking either of their characters, or, importantly, eliminated Kris as a knight candidate.
And that's the thing about this argument, it's entirely based on a rule that was never established. Some my arguments I gave above I didn't come up with myself, but got from a couple videos on why Kris _could_ be the knight, but when I first heard this argument, my thought was something along the lines of "I didn't think that was something that needed to be explained, but it's paired with some other evidence, so I guess I'll go with it", and someone I saw arguments that counter this one, I was like "yeah, that makes sense". Frankly, I never thought there needed to be a rule for where lighteners get placed after a dark fountain is sealed, it would just want to bother me that much, I wouldn't have even thought about it if people didn't bring it up. I honestly don't know why people want this rule to exist so badly, and why they don't feel the need to justify this rules existence.
And to preempt people calling me a hypocrite for assuming new unique properties of pure dark fountains, but not considering that possibility when it comes to explaining away the weirdness that was entering the dark world in chapter 1, i'll say the difference is Occam's razor. There's already a lot of evidence to suggest that a dark world can't be escaped based on a combination of game mechanics and Ralsei's testimony, and since we already know from Ralsei's testimony that's there something different about pure dark founders when compared to normal dark fountains (that being, darkeners from other fountains don't turn into stone when they enter one made from a pure dark fountain), assuming this allows us to solve a seeming contradiction without making more than one assumption. Meanwhile, If we assume that the weirdness with entering a dark world in chapter 1 was something exclusive to pure dark worlds, then we will be assuming an entirely new property of pure dark fountains in order to… make it even harder to justify the existence of a rule that was literally never established.
I frankly don't know why people are so gungho on this piece of evidence, when Kris's shambling is right there. Like, the only piece of evidence that Kris can move normally without a soul is them throwing themselves when they reentered the building (which is not something I imagined it would be able to easily take advantage of to get to the library), and debatably them seemingly walking normally upwards towards the sink (which I would definitely classify as a case of magic xylophone). So to me, Kris's limited mobility was always the smoking gun for this theory.
I swear "Kris is the knight" is the chapter 2 equivalent of chapter 1's "the darkworld is a roleplay"
When Kris and Susie enter the dark world the first time it takes a long time before they fall.
The dark world is not active fully until a lighter enters for the first time.
Noelle and birdly could of easily moved into the dark room arms full of books to set them down and find the light switch and then fallen in .
I always think the reason why kris creating dark fountain are recruit mechanic from chapter 2
If you spare something they would be your ally in the darkworld more specipicly
In ralsei darkworld
Which was very good thing
More ally more power we have
Also because kris are the one who create the fountain there is chance darkner will instantly obey kris
1. About King not recognising Kris:
In Ch.2, Queen makes it clear that she did not in fact meet the Knight, and was purely guessing at their motivations (really, she was projecting her own desires onto the Knight). It's likely that King was doing the same. After all, what are the odds that the Knight's goal is to create a Great Dark World and punish Lightners for abandoning Darkners? Very low indeed, since that seems out of touch with what they do in Chapter 2. But it seems EXACTLY like what King would want to do. And even if that doesn't convince you, it seems that you can't leave a Dark World without sealing the Fountain - so if the Knight entered the Ch1 Dark World, they would still have been inside it in Chapter 1, which would make their non-appearance very strange indeed. This makes the idea that King actually met the Knight seem very unlikely.
I also disagree with the notion that the Knight interfering with the Dark World by messing up its Light World counterpart is lame. Those actions aren't "added" to the Darkners' memories, they actually do experience what happens to them in the Light World and can remember it. If that weren't the case, then King wouldn't be angry about being abandoned in the first place.
my god. thank you. i really dislike kris knight theory, because them being the knight would COMPLETELY overshadow whatever the hell is going on with them. the weird player stuff and kris just being a weird kid is already interesting and new, we really dont need to make them the knight aswell.
The whole kris knight theory always just felt like people dont read into things much and just take things at face value. yeah, they made the fountain, and they are dressed in armor, but past there isnt much... and the game isnt even finished yet ! ive seen so many people argue that they dont understand why they would make a fountain at the end of chapter 2, especially post snowgrave route. the answer to that is called waiting for the next chapter when there will be an answer.
this theory has always felt so shallow and a dumb cop out, that their weirdness can be explained just by "oh theyre the knight" just feels wrong and stupid to me, like their entire character doesnt matter...
The thing I don't really agree about the whole “But Noelle and Berdly weren't near the entrance after the fountain was sealed!” argument is that during chapter 1, kris and susie fell into the supply closet, yet they wake up inside the abandoned classroom next to it. So, it shouldn't be unreasonable to assume that movement in the dark world is sorta akin to the movement system in the nether in minecraft: a few steps in the light world equals lots of steps in the dark world, etc. Which is why I think that point isn't very plausible.
Migrating to a different room and waking up on the floor is not equivalent to setting up your books on a desk and sitting in a chair.
2:31 and Kris and Susie are infront of the computer instead of at the door.
4:26, I suggest not that your counter evidence is not invalid (as per invocation of magical xylophone), but wrong. As you suggest, people can change position in the light world between the time that they are in the dark world, as they would instead be slumped on the floor, as per your suggestion. Perhaps the dark world fufilled their intention of studying, but I suggest that it has to do with them being in a different place of the dark world, as Susie and Kris were in a different location of the Dark World. Alternatively, as Berdly and Noelle intended on studying, perhaps the dark world warped their locations in the Light world in order to prevent them from thinking it was anything other tahn a dream, as one counter point you do not acknowledge to them falling asleep on the floor is that it would be odd for them to fall asleep without having done anything.
6:23 That's correlation, not causation.
Your last point however, is the main point that would prove difficult to prove wrong. You would be forced to assume that the Roaring would not be caused by the Knight opening fountains, or that Gaster is not referring to the Roaring. This may sound odd, but it actually makes sense when you consider that in Undertale, the game over screen has Asgore telling [Character Name] to stay determined, yet we assume the words to be referring to us. Thus, Gaster may be referring to something else. Back to my point about the Roaring not being caused by the Knight opening fountains however, the Roaring may actually instead be caused by putting a large amount of determination into a single fountain, as would happen if a soul were to be released into a fountain.
I think the argument that Noelle and Berdley were already in place when the dark fountain was made doesn’t seem to hold water. If that was meant to be a clue, you’d think their books would be open and they’d be in the middle of studying, right?
Kris and Susie’s location in the room isn’t really conducive to where they might have just walked in in the chapter 1 fountain, so I don’t think that’s great evidence either.
I think Kris Knight would be cool from a storytelling perspective, but I do think there is some evidence to the contrary. The biggest thing for me personally is how Kris kinda flinched back at the first dark fountain in chapter 1. Sure, that behaviour COULD be explained even if they’re the knight, but it would be really weird.
While i do agree with you, i do wanna point out that the chapter 3 dark world being different could also be due to the fact its created at night, since im pretty sure its mentioned dark worlds at night turn weird. I dont necessarily think thats why, but it is another possibility that i cant really find a defeater for.
Still, a minor hole in what is otherwise a good line of argumentation.
Hm, fair and valid points and opinions,
Hm, i wonder if Deltarune will reference this Theory as a joke at some point?
Above anything, WE (the player) could never be the knight. Not even if our presence somehow lived before the events of Chapter 1.
This is because King calls Kris the Lightbringer. WE are the light. That's why the soul glows all the time. That's why Kris becomes an outline, and Susie and Ralsei fade to black whenever you enter realtime combat.
If we were the one to create the fountain, King, at the very least, would know and show some level of betrayal.
But people can move around in a room after they enter a dark world, after ch 1 fountain was sealed Kris and Susie ended up in the unused room instead of the supply closet
i don't think the discrepancy between berdly and noelle waking up in the computer lab is particularly relevant as the game specifically shows them jumping into the dark world which had already been created at that point. either scenes as evidence are good as one another. the dark worlds are based on objects in the rooms where they are made, as hinted at by the objects relating to things you see in the dark world, and also because moving them moves those things in the dark world to another fountain e.g. castle town.
i don't think the form they take is implied to have anything to do with the particular creator. queen says that any lightner can make a dark world and she describes the knight as someone who 'thrust their knife into the ground' to create a fountain... which... kris is seen with a knife. often. specifically when they're conveniently walking off screen to do something suspicious, and we can't see them doing that. it's entirely possible at the end of chapter 1 kris created the fountain that leads to a cyber's world. as well as this, their knight outfit; it's incidentally missing a helmet. it could be to interact with the world as the knight that they wear a helmet and perhaps also a disguise, or the knight could even be two people; kris who creates the fountains, and someone who impersonates them and claims to have made the fountains in order to manipulate the darkners. however i think it's likely that kris has created some of these fountains; especially the ones for ch2 and obviously the one for ch3.
its weird also, however, because theres implication in some dark worlds that other lightners have been there before the lightners in deltarune; like, the spamton neo suit referencing mettaton neo, and the shopkeeper in queen's castle saying that 'it was once very important to a certain lightner'... which kind of implies that mettaton had perhaps visited the dark world? it makes me curious, honestly. like is the suit there because it was made inside the dark world, or is it just in the computer lab somewhere? the internet is down, so they cant get it off the internet. but i digress; kris' actions are suspicious and they're a character i would consider for having motivations for making the dark fountains.
it's also implied that they previously 'studied the occult' with catti's sister, which... might mean that the 'occult' in this world is actually just information about the dark worlds. she seems to know about them too? or at least she mentions something about noelle walking in the dark. so maybe they know about the dark worlds through that, for example. there's a lot we don't know about kris and at the points where the dark worlds are presumably being made kris is suspiciously missing or literally onscreen making them along the course of the story. they're dressed in a knight costume minus a helmet. they're shown with a knife. they're in a peculiar situation which could motivate them to do drastic things; being possessed by the player; and also strongly want freedom of their own, as shown by their reaction to spamton neo's strings being cut; i read that as them being horrified at the idea that freedom could kill them. they could be opening up the dark worlds in pursuit of answers or the power to be freed of this possession; there's a lot of possible motivations from even the little we know about them so far.
wow this video really got me thinking on the plot clues we have so far lol. thanks for reading if anyone read this :) i just wanted to write all this down somewhere and work through my thoughts a bit after replaying ch1 and ch2
In my opinion, Kris is supposed to be a knight, just not the Roaring Knight: chess theory is a popular deltarune theory that states that each chapter's main boss is based on a chess, from their design, name and story role (Like how King only appears at the end and is pretty weak compared to future characters, or how Queen appears everywhere in chapter 2); If you notice, in chess there are only 1 piece for the queen and the king, while rooks, bishops and knights come in pairs: this supported by the fact secret bosses often reference the next chapter's villain, and Spamton talks about both Tenna and Mike which, if we don't assume Mike is a secret boss (which would be weird, since you would assume Toby would keep it a secret), would mean chapter 3 has dual bosses.
So, if bosses not only reflect the chess piece role but also the number of them, it wouldn't be a stretch to think there would be duos for the others as well.
Not only that, but if Kris was the knight you would think us, the player, would try to do something to stop them, but it's very likely we will fight the knight only in chapter 5, and i don't think we wouldn't do anything for 2 chapters straight.
Also, the real roaring knight, in this case, might see Kris as a threat for their mission, forcing us to protect them (and strenghtening our bond with them) and giving us a more personal reason to fight the knight.
To end this, it's more likely Kris will be chapter 6 main boss as it would be the pawn boss and they are our puppet ( or a pawn, you could say).
a lot of the other comments here have made most of my counterarguments already, but i'd like to throw in that half of the points in this video disregard the clear delineation the game makes between kris and "you," the player.
when the game over screen asks you whether you want to continue or not, it's asking *you*-not kris.
in the same vein, i'll also point out that the darkners often seem aware of both the player and the mechanics of the game in a way that frequently breaks the fourth wall, ralsei being the most obvious example. it's entirely possible that when king says "i shall shatter your heart to pieces," he's saying he wants to physically shatter your literal [[heart shaped object]] into pieces.
mind you i know that sounds a bit like a dumb joke, and i'm not saying that's definitely it, but remember: toby fox made up an element that lets you turn back time if you die, and he named it "de-termination." that's the kind of man we're dealing with.
just saying.
You forget something important:
Chapter 3 prerelease material shows that if you enter the dark world while asleep, you remain asleep in the dark world.
Which means that if they woke up in the dark world, they would have to be put to sleep again before it is sealed in order to be asleep in back in the light world, which was likely done by ralsei with pacify in order to help convince N&B it was a dream.
So you cant prove that they were asleep before by saying they were asleep after, and the signs of a scuffle show thst N&B were almost certainly awake when they entered
Interesting would be a twist that the knight is Kris,and if we die, despite the soul shatter,Kris is freed instead of killed, and he keeps making fountains nonstop
Tho there is no reasoning for that to begin with
One thing I would like to point out: the text when clicking on the closet doesn’t have to be irrelevant or proof that the knight was in the closet. I had always assumed it was there for snowgrave, and that when Kris gathers up everything in the room, they also stash Birdly’s body in the closet.
6:06 You said that ch3 being structurally different in how it is played and that it will focus on the plot less, But I don't see how that disproves Kris being the knight
Perhaps you meant that due to the previous chapter's dark fountains being created by the knight, that means that in ch3 due to it being different, It will not have the knight open a fountain
Though Toby could've very easily not meant it in this way, Maybe the darkners in this world will have no concept of the knight but this still does not mean Kris is not the knight
Perhaps a counterpoint to your last statement: it could be that the game over screen does not represent the death of Kris, but rather the death of the player's control over Kris - it is the soul that is in battle, after all. Perhaps the game over screen occurs because the player is no longer in control to stop Kris from doing Knight things?
the soul literally shatters on screen
Great video!
Kris could ve just asked the king to say that :/// but other than that ye kris is defenietly not the knight
"But come on, that's lame... it diminishes the Knight's actions greatly and reduces their threat level"
If Kris is the Knight, then this doesn't actually matter, since the matter is likely not as simple as them being the antagonist. In fact, it would seem quite likely that their "threat level" was a red herring for the twist that we're actually playing as this supposed antagonist. So this is kind of a circular argument, starting from the assumption that Kris isn't the Knight to justify why Kris isn't the Knight.
For Noelle and Berdly's post-fountain states - for one, it's out of character for Noelle and Berdly to randomly fall asleep instead of studying. Secondly, they're not sitting at the tables, they're standing or crouching while hunched over them. And third, the Spamton Sweepstakes strongly imply that when you enter a Dark World while asleep, you stay asleep. It seems unlikely this happened with Berdly and Noelle, who likely would've just been captured by Queen immediately given the opportunity. It also feels reasonable to intuit that the opposite occurs - if you leave the Dark World awake, you enter the Light World awake. A more reasonable explanation might be that Ralsei cast a pacify spell on the two to keep up the Fun Gang's narrative that the Cyber World was just a dream. Their books are also not open, but closed and stacked on top of each other.
For Ralsei - he's just lying. Practically everyone in the Deltarune community agrees that he often comes across as shady, lying by omission or just outright not telling the truth, so this shouldn't be too much of a stretch. It's hard to believe that the Knight literally created the Fountain, and everything with Noelle and Berdly in the Cyber World took place in the timespan it took for Kris and Susie to walk from the School to the Library. But this is what you have to believe if you trust that Ralsei is being honest in that scene. Meanwhile, if Kris is the Knight it seems obvious that Ralsei is working with them.
Chapter 3 being structurally different to the other chapters is a decent bit of circumstantial evidence in favor of Kris not being the Knight, that's hard to deny. But Kris Knight deniers have, in my opinion, much harder questions to contend with - for example, why does it seem so strongly implied that Kris was planning to create the third Dark Fountain from the night between Chapter 1 and 2 (plugging in the TV, narration hints like "It's not yet time to wash your hands", etc.)
Lore of Why Kris CAN'T Be the Knight [ Deltarune Theory ] momentum 100
Your first section argument basically boils down to
"Nuh uh" but then you did say it was just personal preference so whatever (not sure why you'd use it as evidence then)
And of course, "muh closet dialogue". Okay seeing as this ground has been trodden so thoroughly I'm not going to bother giving you a deeper explanation as to why this line of thinking is wrong but considering you, like most people who don't like the idea of Kris being the Knight will just say that this line of dialogue means what you think it means and offer no deeper explanation as to why we should believe that then I think it's only fair that I don't give you a deeper explanation. This one piece of flavour text doesn't carry a whole theory, it just doesn't.
So if your response is anything other than a justification as to why that this one line of dialogue at this one point in the game must be interpreted the way you interpret it I'm not interested.
it's far more likely kris is just capable of wielding the same powers as the knight, rather than them actually being the knight, and from what we've heard about kris, they are far from a villain, they aren't even THAT mean, kris just doesn't have the motivation / driving force to do what the knight is planning.
Why not just.. you know... Asriel/Ralsei ?
I mean, why would or can he move over to the Other Dark World and is unaffected.
(Im not a Deltarune Theory conspiracist)
Welp. When this video popped up randomly in my recommended, I went into it with a strong suspicion that it would be the exact same collection of sh*tty, cherry-picked points that have always been used to "debunk" Knight!Kris with little-to-nothing that I haven't already heard ad nauseam, and my suspicions, sadly, were correct. At least you presented counterarguments, something most people don't bother to do, even if you cherry-picked weak counterarguments.
Let's break this down, shall we?
0:40 King mentions the Knight a grand total of three times. Nothing he says particularly implies a one-on-one interaction with it, especially in the context of Queen observing the Knight and jumping to conclusions based on its actions and huge assumptions about its motives, and the established precedent that manipulating objects in the light world prior to creating a fountain affects the resultant dark world, as we see with Kris turning on the TV in chapter 3. The idea that King may be simply assuming the Knight's motives is underlined both by the fact that there isn't a clear reason why it would physically intervene in the Card Kingdom, but not enter the Cyber World at all, and more importantly by King's belief that the world would be ruled by Darkners, when in fact the Roaring would petrify all Darkners. King has drastically misunderstood the cause he is fighting for, *in exactly the same way as Queen did.* Both believed they could and would take over the world through the fountains, being unaware that they were in fact fighting for its destruction.
1:07 "It's lame" is incredibly subjective, and doesn't actually address the counterarguments you brought up(On top of the different outfits idea, which would make sense with the precedent of Kris opening fountains with their SOUL removed, given what exactly their SOUL is, there's also the possibility that King is simply acting as part of some greater plan between himself and the Knight. However, I'm more inclined to follow the "King, did not personally meet the Knight and is simply assuming its motives" interpretation given the evidence and context provided by chapter 2.). Furthermore, it absolutely does not undermine the threat of the Knight. It's still an entity that threatens to cause the actual apocalypse and who is capable of easily wreaking havoc in dark worlds without any apparent regard for the well-being of darkners.
2:24 And here we are, the part I saw coming light-years away. The goddamn books, the first thing to come up in discussion of what is, to be blunt, quite possibly the most idiotic yet widely-used claim I have ever heard from this fandom(which is already an incredibly high bar), the idea that the Knight made the fountain with Noelle and Berdly in the room. This one is such a bag of worms I will address it in a reply rather than in this comment to ensure I don't run afoul of the YT character limit(and more importantly, it's late where I am and I have to get up early tomorrow, it'll be a busy day for me lol), so I will just say that it's completely impossible and move on for the time being. See the replies to this comment for elaboration on that, if you don't see it I am either asleep/busy, in the process of writing it, or have forgotten, depending on how long it's been since me posting this comment.
6:07 No. Just no. This is such a massive, utterly ridiculous leap in logic. There are any number of reasons why a given chapter would be different from previous chapters. You have, without any evidence at all, not only jumped to the literal only possible interpretation of Toby's incredibly vague statement that supports your argument, but also... somehow concluded that Toby commenting on specific concerns he has for the next chapter is likely him directly addressing a specific theory video, which just so happens to have been made by you.(Way to stroke your own ego there.)
Besides, it's bad form to use a theory as basis for another theory(Or more accurately, as a counterpoint to a different theory).
6:45 This has a pretty clear explanation. Kris is explicitly stated to be the only one capable of closing fountains. Without them, no fountains can be closed, and the balance of light and dark cannot be restored. Ralsei states that even one extra fountain is sufficient to shift the balance of light and dark and thus threatens to cause the Roaring. Hence, if the heroes fall within a dark world, the Roaring will eventually happen.
Knight!Kris is by no means confirmed with certainty, but the fact remains that they are suspect number one. It is impossible to dismiss them as a suspect based on current evidence.
So, funny story(not really).
I was literally sitting down to type out the continuation I said I'd make when I got a call from a family member that my grandfather was in the hospital without further context beyond that I should come. Typing this while waiting for my ride over to arrive.
I haven't forgotten, I just am not in a good mental state to be writing about funny white dog game atm, and may not be for awhile depending on what exactly is happening. It's on my free-time to-do list for whenever I am ready to devote brainpower to it, though, I promise I'll get to it eventually, but make no promises as to when.
@@Missingno_Miner Do you still have plans?
You guys know kris and Susie wake up in the middle of the old classroom despite entering through the closet, right?
If Kriss is not the knight, why would they create a Dark Fountain at the end of Chapter 2?
I know that I and many other have done this question, and I would like to give my own answer.
First I realized something very important, something that always happen in Chapter 2 no matter the route, and it is Queen's explanation on how dark fountains are made, something that Kriss is present to hear.
So what Kriss actually did at the end of chapter 2 is his own experiment in a controled environment, after all, they will have Susie and Toriel alongside them, which also leads me to belive that there will not be a weird route in Chapter 3 (Unless something that Kriss couldn't take into account enters the Dark World (cof cof Undyne cof cof)).
Knowing the akward interactions Kriss has with Ralsei, maybe Kriss is also testing weather Ralsei will appear in this new Dark World or not.
PD: Bro no way I finish writting this to see that the pinned comment is saying the same stuff
Congratulations for expressing the exact same fucking opinion as everyone else.🎉🎉🎉
(Not saying Kris is the night, but you know, bring something new to the table.)
I have a theory what if Asriel is the knight
Anyways it's just a theory, a game theory
amazing video as always
i'd love to see you delve into the mystery that is ice-e
They Weasel on my Weasel till I W
My main problem with a lot of these arguments you're presenting is that they're very subjective.
You say it's lame that the Knight never entered the Card Kingdom, but that's just your own personal opinion. You also say that Chapter 3 is going to be a different chapter BECAUSE the fountain was made by Kris, but it's far too early to say that's the case. Additionally, we're never given a definitive explanation of how fountains work, so to say the game over screen is proof that Kris can't be the Knight is just inaccurate.
The only argument that has real evidence is the "Knight made the fountain while Noelle & Berdly were inside" thing. But my main problem with that argument is that the only way to arrive at that conclusion is to take very specific details from the game and interpret them in a specific way. Most casual audiences don't experience stories like that. I'm just gonna say this right now: if your argument requires to go back & interpret things in a way that you wouldn't think to analyze to such a degree on a casual reading, unless it's a murder mystery novel or something, that's almost guaranteed to be unintentional.
The point is, I feel it's unfair to argue Kris can't be the Knight with what we have right now.
Nah. Kris is the knight.
No offense, but you barely even made any arguments
full offense personally
Lmao
FIRST!
Lore of Why Kris CAN'T Be the Knight [ Deltarune Theory ] momentum 100