Happy holidays, to all who celebrate! Just for the occasion, I bring you a vid discussing Mayor Holiday from Deltarune and the worrying relationship with her daughter. If you came here from the recent Terra analysis (Kingdom Hearts), fret not! I plan to do more KH content in the near future. Ventus and Yen Sid videos are probably gonna be the next major topics. If you missed it, the Terra video is here: th-cam.com/video/Ruy5aYUijGE/w-d-xo.html If you wanna support what I do, my patreon is here: patreon.com/dorked And my Ko-Fi is here: ko-fi.com/invertedfate Inverted Fate: invertedfate.com/chapters More Undertale/Deltarune Analysis Content: th-cam.com/video/4VfHhBh1c8c/w-d-xo.html More Deltarune Theories: th-cam.com/video/KueHgAZcV00/w-d-xo.html Mayor Holiday art by yBlookynho: www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/te718w/speaking_of_communion_kris_did_you_know_that_the/ Undertale alarm clock: undertale.com/alarmclock/
While we still need to actually see her From what we know now, she is controlling and a perfectionist. To the point Noelle is too scared to tell her, she forgot her home keys. This IS bad parenting. Regardless of if she's a good person or not. If you child doesn't feel safe coming to you over a tiny mistake.
WOAH 1, whispypuff's comment is specifically omori spoilers, its such a good game so go play it if u have game pass or smth if its your thing, 2 dont read this if you dont want MAJOR VERY MAJOR THE BIGGEST SPOILER IN THE GAME spoilers also Last chance, if you don't want spoilers dont read on here. Cover your screen or smth idk ok. HBe gaming add a spoiler warning. Really?
So far the game has depicted her as quite a cruel mother. The way both Rudy and Noelle talk about her already says enough and yet there is even more leaning torwards her very bad and way too strict parenting
Yyyeah, that's why I wanted to touch on the abusive undertones because I think there are just way too many red flags for it to be a healthy mother-daughter dynamic.
@@Dorked Deltarune is gonna rip our hearts to shreds, isn’t it? Something’s telling me the ending of this game and the fate of its characters aren’t gonna be as happy as undertale.
@@Dorked actually, wait. Isn't this almost exactly how ASGORE was characterized in UT? Maybe they are parallels, as Gorey was a deeply flawed lawful neutral in that world
@@deimos_da_boss2732 Could end up being the classic opposite. Asgore was talked about like he’s the devil by Toriel in the beginning. But later on, Papyrus literally calls him a pushover and nicknames him Fluffybuns. Then we see that Undyne looked up to him like he’s a hero when she was young. The Mayor’s descriptions from NPC’s could become worse as the chapters go by in contrast.
Dark Worlds seem like they're specifically designed to develop one of the Lightners inside. The first one gave Susie friendship in the form of Lancer, and a bigger bully to contrast with in the form of Spade King. Similarly, Queen seems less like a reflection of the mayor and more like a test for Noelle to stand up for herself. She's a villain that can only be defeated by telling her no. Queen's "mother-like" attributes might just be there to make Noelle even MORE hesitant to say no, she reminds her of her mother.
@@catmaster8232 I’m betting the dark world in the Bunker will be revolved around Kris and helping them. My endgame prediction is Kris will find a way to rip us out without the process weakening or killing them, and we the stray soul will find and inhabit the original body we created that was discarded. In our new body we team up with Susie and Asriel to go into the Bunker’s dark world to confront Kris and their issues, and I believe Ralsei will side with Kris as it’s believed he was directly or indirectly created by Kris, so it makes sense that he’ll side with his creator. Kris will be the final boss, but not as a villain but rather an antagonist.
Honestly, the Queen is more of a motherly figure to Noelle than Noelle’s LITERAL mom which definitely is concerning, I definitely hope that we get more of Kris and Noelle’s family as I really don’t think Noelle’s mom is distant and Icey for no reason, but I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
@catsex yes, it seems very likely that Noelle’s mom most likely distanced herself with work to distract herself of her decaying husband and missing daughter. But this video does bring up some great points pointing to Noelle’s mom maybe being abusive
@catsex However I guess we’ll just have to wait and see, I do think both chances of Noelle’s mom being neglectful and burying herself in work to distract her of her troubles and her just being an abusive mother and or wife are both plausible. If it turns out that Noelle’s mom is abusive then it would definitely be interesting, however like stated in Undertale, I highly doubt she is neglectful without a reason as a monster’s soul needs to be made of kindness while a human soul doesn’t.
Yeah, I could see it being an Encanto-like situation where the real villain is the shared pain and trauma in the family and the lack of confrontation and communication.
Yeah, I like this theory in particular. I’m not sure if this implies to Deltarune as well but in Undertale if you go into the library you can read and figure out that a monster’s soul needs to be filled with kindness, and etc, while a human soul does not need to be filled with any sympathy or kindness. Not saying all monsters are exactly good people but they MUST need a reason to be seen as bad right? Like flowey, he has no soul in his flower form, so he has a reason, Alphys obviously shows extreme guilt and was technically forced to do the whole experiment thing as she was ordered to do so.
@@S0m3B0z0OnTheInternet I was under the impression that the difference between monsters and humans isn't necessarily the same in Deltarune. After all, lighteners can have determination, which includes monsters.
@@S0m3B0z0OnTheInternet IDK about taking what the library says as 100% reliably true; for all we know that "monster souls are literally made of kindness and love!!!" thing could easily have been pro-monster propaganda from their war with the humans.
@@F1areon Yeah but there’s no real evidence to support that so again.we aren’t really sure. From my own observations, Toby seem to like hearing what the fandom comes up with instead of admitting things canon so he leaves a lot of stuff particularly vague.
Perhaps if we do get an Asgore and Rudy Chapter explaining the deal between both their families,it could build up to an arc of confronting the Mayor eventually, even if she's the Knight or not.
I'd love to see a chapter exploring Asgore and Rudy and their past. I think it'd be an interesting dynamic to show onscreen, since it's clear that the two are very close.
Noelle's passive nature could very well be because her mother is abusive and controlling. She probably learned that it's better to just blindly listen to her orders then risk getting emotionally, or worse, physically beaten down. This would explain why she's so easy to manipulate in the Weird/Snowgrave route in chapter 2, you as the player are taking advantage of this poor girls unhealthy survival instinct. But, there is hope for Noelle, Chapter 2's normal route has her slowly asserting herself throughout the chapter until she's finally strong enough to break Queen's control over her completely. That experience in the Dark World, even if she perceives it as a dream, strengthened her soul and made her realize that she deserves to have her needs/wants heard.
Noelle is easily one of my favorite characters and it's because I know what it's like to have that survival mechanism. I'm very excited to see where her story goes.
“Dess, being the older sibling, likely sensed the hostility of their mother and wanted to take Noelle away from the house, even if it was for a short time” I felt this. Last year when the relationship of my family wasn’t in a healthy state, my sister said that she was leaving and taking me with her. Things are better now, but it’s weird that I can relate with a video game.
Noelle seems to be in a difficult situation with her family. Her mother is potentially abusive, her father is dying, and her sister... we don't even know where she is. It's interesting that there's more we know about Noelle's family than Susie's. Just how important will Noelle be to Deltarune?
I think Noelle is definitely important with all the angel symbolism, the weird route, and her being one of the main characters with a very specific response from the goner maker that's only shared with Kris and Susie.
@@Dorked I forgot about the Goner Maker! That makes me think she might be playable again in a later chapter. I wonder what that means for the Weird Route.
@@felipelodamjmedeiros1079 The Goner Maker is the sequence at the beginning of the game. In the Goner Maker, a mysterious voice (Gaster) makes you create a vessel, and then name the vessel and creator. Gaster also discards the vessel when you finish, but what that means is unknown.
@@An_Account1 oooohhh now i get it,lol usually i call that Survey Program kkkkkk my bad. Hey,one more thing,how much do you think will cost the future chapters 3,4 and 5? Any idea?
Yeah, I wanted to get it done by Christmas but ended up finishing much faster than that, so I figured I'd release a bit early. xD Gives me some time to chill over the holiday.
You kind of got me thinking... while I don't fully believe it myself (not that I think it's impossible, but it's just that we don't know enough about darkners yet) there is this theory, that every darkner is created specifically for a lightner. Like Lancer's purpose being Susie's first real friend for example. This kind of makes Queen look like a practice mother, as weird as that might sound. Someone who isn't as threatening to Noelle as her real mother, but who Noelle wishes to stand up against in a similar way. Queen and the darkworld become like a safespace to Noelle, where she can practice standing up for herself to her mother in a, for her, safer environment, since it's more detached from reality.
Honestly, I'm not sure what to think of Noelle's mother. I'm waiting until we actually meet her,however from what we know she doesn't sound like a very good mom. Since Noelle is my favorite character in deltarune, I hope she has some kind of happy resolution with her mother (especially if her father does end up dying). It would be great seeing her standing up to her and telling her mom how she feels. I'd love seeing her friends there as well for support, whether it be in the dark world or the light world. Also,at the end you mentioned so many good video ideas that I hope you do.
Yeah, the problem is having so many ideas and deciding which to prioritize. xD Maybe if we get more on Mayor Holiday in Chapters 3 - 5, I'll do a followup vid, because then we'll have some meaningful context to work with. For now, it's fun to try and piece together the limited info, at least.
I do wished noelle’s mother isn’t that bad of person, just not the best parent. Like there a lot of stuff that stressing her out (her daughter is missing and her husband dying), but her “officer parenting” isn’t helping noelle.
It's also the fact of losing a loved one that made it worse. Because as we can see in berdly's backstory, She broke down as soon as she heard "Dec". But here's a question I have: Why did Noelle get more confident in a snowgrave route? Edit: Why the fuck did this dumb comment get 100 likes? Thanks ig.
I think it was the fact that she got "stronger," but even then, I'd say that confidence is complicated, given how terrified she was of us in her monologue scene.
It feels like. She didn't exactly get more confident. Weird Route showed Noelle that she had the ability to *take control*, but she failed to stand up for herself when it mattered
I feel like I should clear some stuff up, I didn't mean "more" as in major. I just meant it as in a bit confident, But y'all are right. Confident is a complicated word for it, and I would happily change it if y'all want me to. Thanks for reminding me that I wrote my comment like a dumbass. XD
Something that bothers me is seemingly how readily the mayor kicked Asgore off the police force (since it was most likely her doing, given her power and status). He was very much invested in finding Dess, so... maybe there's some darker implications about the mayor going on behind the scenes. If she is the Knight, maybe Dess went missing because the mayor opened a dark fountain in wherever that large red door leads, and covered up what she did by removing the one person who was seriously invested in finding Dess.
Yeah, I do wonder what went on there. A part of me highly suspects there'll be some kinda flashback chapter to fill in the gaps at some point. I'd personally love to see that.
With the parallels between Mayor Holiday and Queen, I don't think things will go well. I like how Queen serves as a means for Noelle to eventually be able to face her. I've thought the theory that she's the Knight, opening Fountains to try and find Dess is quite interesting. Anyway, great video! I'd love to see how DELTARUNE as a whole develops (and also your content, like Inverted Fate).
Yeah, right now there just isn't a lot of positive information about the mayor other than she's efficient with what she does. Everything else skews way more negative. She's cold, she's scary, she has zero charisma, and Noelle is terrified of her.
Oh wow, yeah Noelle's home situation seems a lot worse considering the Snowgrave route. I wonder if Dess was treated like this when she was around. I'm honestly not hopeful on how good she'll be but I want to see Toby tackle abusive parents more head on (though I guess he could do that with Susie's.) and I want to see how Noelle and Rudy will stand up to that.
I do wonder if Dess being a more rebellious kid met friction with her mother. She's described as being into horror movies, having a wiffle bat that she whacked Kris with, and being very bold and adventurous.
i really wish channels like dorked, halfbreadchaos and mysticslime would get more recognition for these types of videos, i genuinly am in love with theory content, and i wish more people watch it
I remember watching a video on the universal mother theory, of how Queen reflects all the lightners' mothers, but yeah Noelle's mother is definitely the easiest to spot and the most worrying. At least we can hope she learned enough courage from Ch2 to start standing up to her?
It's very tempting to say that Noelle's Mother is going to be cruel, and harsh, but this situation is reminding me of the way Asgore was described in Undertale. Before we met him, both Toriel and Undyne said that he would kill was just as he did the other humans, but when we met him, he was kind, allowed us to talk and to do any unfinished business we had. I wonder if that's the direction Toby is going to go with Noelle's Mother.
He did something similar w/ Lancer's dad; all the Darkners in the area were scared of him, so players went "oh maybe it's another Asgore situation and he'll actually be sympathetic", but then NOPE
But in Undertale, there equal amount of dialogue showing his kind side, so needless to say if one focuses on the dialogue, they'd find out beforehand that Asgore is actually very kind. However, with Noelle's mother no such indication has been seen.
@@utkarshtrichalxpearl4427 Mayor Holiday kinda seems like an anti-Asgore, an absolute cold to his absolute warmth, but both imprisoned by a sense of duty.
@@utkarshtrichalxpearl4427well tbf, the hostile red dialogue was about "asgore" and the friendly yellow dialogue was about "king fluffybuns" and "mr. dreemurr" its easy to forget since its been so long, but we didnt really know those were the same people at first. its only when undyne says "king asgore dreemurr" that we put it together. 🤷🏼♂️
Y'know, seeing this kind of explains why Noelle would be friends with someone like Berdly and have a crush on Susie. The two are a lot louder and more expressively and don't have any or many friends due to being outcasts, which probably makes her feel important or needed. Berdly being protective of her is probably one of the few displays of affection she gets outside of her family, even if it's not the best... (seriously, Berdly my man, you get a point for trying, but dear lord, tone it down)
I would like to see the other fan projects, even yours in future. As for Mayor Holiday. I wouldn’t mind to see a harsher mother figure in deltarune. It only makes sense with all the signs of some kind of abuse Noelle shows. It doesn’t have to be crazy bad abuse, I mean kids get greatly affected by even little things. I think it will just be interesting to see her and her mother confront each other’s mayor holiday must be in pain too. She already lost a daughter in some capacity, and her husband is in the hospital. I don’t think she will be a one dimensional villain.
this is such a good analysis. something you said made me realize something about the mayor. at around 12 minutes i think you said the mayor doesn’t provide for Noelle, your 100% right but i think the mayor believes she is providing for Noelle by always working and being so hard on her. most parents in this kinda relationship always believe that their doing wars best for the kid and the child isn’t actually providing in the relationship. again really good analysis and sorry this is so long
No need to apologize! I've seen longer. xD But yeah, it's entirely possible the mayor isn't aware of how her actions hurt Noelle and thinks she knows better for her daughter than her daughter does for herself.
I always saw the queen as what noelle sees in her mother, as in she wants to see the best in her, that’s why she is so goofy and her intentions are just to make noelle happy
I have a feeling that if Noelle stood up to her mother the same way she did with queen, it would get shut down shortly after it starts before gaining any momentum, Or it would backfire severely in the end making things worse. Now that I think about it, the weird route could affect how this would go if it happens. As well as Noelle’s actions afterward. Which could affect the main plot.
I had a funny thought that, perhaps, decisions like the Snowgrave path could have a massive impact on who lives or dies as the story goes on. Like for example, Noelle taking out Berdly also brought about more confidence in herself... and could help invigorate her Dad... Or perhaps Berdly will be in a similar position to Noelle's dad, revealing that his condition might have been caused by being attacked in the Dark world. After all we have no proof that Berdly is ACTUALLY DEAD after being hit by Snowgrave.
@@SomeCatFromFrance Here is the real question... when traveling to and from the Dark world. In game we see Kris and Suzie seem to Physically enter and then Exit. But in Chapter two everyone seems to "Wake up" as if they had fallen asleep at the table. Berdly is the only character we have seen that has been injured or Killed in the Dark World. Which implies that the Darkworld is a dream like location, but following some funky rules. Here are some extra details. Berdly may not have been killed, but rather had his spirit Frozen in ice. Leaving him in a comatose yet not dead state. It is also possible the Death in the Darkworld means the DEATH of the spirit or soul. Leaving behind an empty body husk that slowly dies over time. Quite frankly, we really dont know what happened. He COULD be fine. He could just be frozen, or his fate will be left ambiguous entirely because None Of Our Choices Matter.
This is a great analysis! I've thought a lot about this too, and I'm very eager to see how Toby will approach Noelle's mom in the upcoming chapters. I would assume that the first time we see her is in church, but if she's even too busy for that, I suppose that'd say a lot about her character!
I hope that we confront the people in the light world like the mayor or susies parents (if she has any), that the bonds and strength we gain in the dark world can translate to courage in the light world. I real confrontation between noelle and her mom about abuse would be the more mature story that Toby said he’s going for
Susie's family is so enigmatic. Is she a runaway? Did one of her parents die? Are her parents abusive or neglectful? It's way too early to say, but it's definitely intriguing!
@@Dorked I am dead certain her dad is the doofus running around town trying to just insinuate himself into different businesses through sheer enthusiasm.
When you said that her name may start with a C, i immediately Though of the name "Carol" which would fit incredibly well, so much so I'm confident this is her name. Carol obviously referencing to going house to house and singing Christmas songs. Who knows, she might even be a little like scrooge from the christmas Carol movie.
Oh boy, I can't wait for even more suffering, pain, and existential dread! In all seriousness, though, I absolutely love how Toby writes his stories, it really makes it feel like anything could happen, and for the most part, still make sense.
@@Dorked I honestly can't wait for him to make some completely off-the-walls secret boss for Chapter 3 that has nothing to do with the flowers or Mike, just some random dude named "Clumpy Mc. Boogle" who just full on swears at you as his speech quirk. The shadow mantle is just a censor bar, and is the only way streamers can beat him without being demonetized.
I truly hope the mayor isn’t portrayed as a true 100% evil mother. I relate to Noelle and her relationship with her mother a lot, and yet I love my mom and I think there will be a way where we will have a happy relationship someday. I feel like it would be nice to give her good traits, bc maybe people can relate too. I know relating to a character isn’t the most important thing while writing but it kinda makes you feel seen a bit idk. Still I love Toby and I know whatever he chooses to do with the character will be pretty cool. Nice video!
I think it could go either way. She could have a kinder side that she just doesn't show. She could be unintentionally hurting Noelle by being too controlling and putting her expectations first. I think even if Toby does go a darker route, it won't be one that's hopeless, as Toby's writing is very heartfelt and shows that even characters who've done awful things like Flowey have nuance.
I feel like Noelle’s fear of her mom comes less from her being actively cruel than it is the fear of confronting her and saying “no” to finally voice her opinions. Being mayor is a very busy and stressful position to have and Noelle’s mom goes above and beyond for her duties. It leads her to neglect her family, however. It might be that she’s treating the well-being of the town to be synonymous with the well-being of Noelle and taking care of her by extension. There’s no crime, the town is clean, the residents are happy. Noelle should be happy. If she gives everything to her job, everything for the town, for Noelle, then she would get upset if anyone gets in the way of that, even her own daughter. She needs Noelle to do her part so the mayor can keep doing hers. As contradictory as it seems, some parents believe that the best for their kids is by staying away to work harder and provide for their family. Noelle is a shy, observant person who is very considerate of others despite her own personal feelings, so she would also put her mom’s priorities above her own and not want to make her mom’s job harder. Her mom’s display of affection might be similar to Queen’s, through gifts and demonstrations to show ‘look at how cool I am. look at how nice this place is. you can be happy here,’ without physically being there and actually listening to what her daughter needs. Noelle’s achievements are a double-edged sword. She might want to impress her mom and get her attention by getting awards and being top of her class. On the other hand, her mom would take it as Noelle doing just fine and continue to neglect her. Her mom has high expectations for her as the daughter of the mayor. Noelle could feel pressured to live up to those expectations and be self-sufficient in her absence. If anything, this could reach a peak and push Noelle to start acting out defiantly. Also, if Rudy dies, it would be just her and her mom, who isn’t there most of the time and might as well be just Noelle alone. Rudy being in a critical state or Noelle severely acting out, or both, would create the major crisis that finally gets her out of her office. (At least that’s my interpretation as a person who’s scared of confronting their workaholic mom)
With anybody else at the wheel, I'd be nervous about the archetype of the "icy controlling career woman" thats being set up with Noelle's mother. However, I trust Toby to handle this character with all the nuance he normally employs. Also, I can't wait for Deltarune to come out fully so we can make a "best to worst parental figures" tierlist
I think Noelle gets her blonde hair and trait of being afraid of everything from her mother. Dess got their mother's raw nerve. Both girls got Rudy's loving nature... I think Clarice/Carol Holiday will be revealed to be Boss Monster class much like Susie, Sans, Undyne, and the Dreamurrs. Both of her daughters inherited this potential. But just as Sans wasn't motivated enough and the Dreamurr's were too gentle, Noelle has a ways to go... Think We'll learn that "Proceed." was the go-to phrase Clarice/Carol would use to shut Noelle down whenever she would hesitate or protest when commanded to do something, and that Clarice/Carol is prone to stern, laconic speech general. I think we may find out a lot of why Clarice/Carol refuses to be disturbed by anything unscheduled has to do with how much she is keeping under wraps... While I agree she is connected to the Roaring Knight, I doubt she is the sole alter-ego of it. For starters, the Roaring Knight has been referred to as 'it,' rather than 'they,' which seems to imply we might not be talking about a person, here.... I'm pretty sure, however the details go together, Mayor Clarice/Carol Holiday is in reeeeeaaal deep with something related to the whole plot of Deltarune. I don't think she'll turn out to be a villain, but rather a character as tragic as her daughter December...
The ending of the game was born from a fever dream imagine the chaos that will be the ending and deltarune was the original idea before Undertale in 2011 in 2011 Toby first tweet was about darkness and dreams
I recently replayed Deltarune and spoke to Noelle and her father Ever since Noelle sat outside the gate and her dad saying she was tough on her, had me thinking about that for a while Like, is her mom really that tough on her? Is that why she's too scared to speak up? Or tell others off? This part is a stretch, but maybe because she's so quiet and doesn't disobey rules is why she is so attracted to Susie. I mean, Susie breaks the rules and says A LOT of vulgar things. Noelle may like that she does whatever she wants when she wants; she probably wants that freedom too I'm thankful this video is here. Especially since I've been thinking about Noelle and her mother's relationship (Not saying Susie has it good btw, I'm just saying what Noelle might be seeing)
This was such a good video. I personally do believe that the mayor is abusive to both her daughter and to Rudy. And, I really like the theory that she's the knight. But, we'll just have to see what Toby has in mind for her.
Fantastic video. I completely agree with how little the mayor has been explored compared to the other elements of Noelle's character, which is a pity since their relationship could very well explain a lot about Noelle as a whole. I gotta say it's not looking good for her, the picture that's being painted is an ugly one, and one I very much could see Toby tackle in Deltarune. For all the whimsical magic and fucked up code stuff, DR can be a very real game through the subjects and situations going on in the light world, broken marriages, sickness, abusive homes, eviction, loneliness, escapism. It's very much in the table, and with the Spamton sweepstakes thing, I'm more and more convinced that it's the direction being taken, god, the goosebumps I got when I read that part, such an uncomfortable feeling. I love the parallel you made between Queen and the Mayor, cause while it's one that a lot of people have discussed, I hadn't seen anyone frame it as Queen being seen through rose tinted glasses, someone overdoting instead of absent, that's great stuff. Really great video as always, I didn't comment on the KH video cause I didn't feel like I had much to add but I liked it as well, will continue to support whatever you upload!!
Hmmm, your comment on Noelle’s cryomancy in the dark world made me realize how much the holiday and Dreemurr Families are linked and mirror each other Undertale had the dreemurrs use pyromancy, while Noelle, a holiday, uses ice magic. Curious isn’t it?
Now I really want to see Noelle’s mother and Queen interact, in castle town or something. I can just imagine her being completely done at the sight of her inane shtick. Might even be more lucrative than the possibility of Papyrus and Rouxls Kaard. There are just so many great characters in Deltarune and Undertale, To be honest I just want to see everyone meet everyone. Like imagine Queen and Mettaton taking shots at eachother - Just a random example I hadn’t even considered before writing this but it would be so effortlessly glorious
It's difficult to speculate too much about a character like Mayor Holiday, given that she hasn't even appeared on screen yet. I could definitely see her being actively abusive, but I could just as easily see her merely being cold and distant with high expectations. All we know for sure is that she's not the type of parent that Noelle needs or wants right now. And I definitely agree that Noelle is going to need to stand up to her the way she stood up to Queen at some point. Somewhat off topic, but since you brought up Rudy's possible death, I've recently become convinced that Rudy is indeed going to die, and Noelle is going to create a Fountain to try to bring him back through his funeral object, and that's what the Angel's Heaven will be - "Angel" because Noelle was referred to as one by the Addisons multiple times in the weird route, and "Heaven" because she'll be trying to create an afterlife. It may be a bit futile to speculate about endgame stuff like that when we're only two chapters in, but the idea of bringing back the dead as Darkners seems too tantalizing for Toby to not explore at some point, and that would line up extremely well with the endgame threat being called "Heaven," so I just can't get the theory out of my head. I can only imagine how a crazy sequence of events like that would impact the Mayor and her relationship with Noelle.
Oh my god your voice is exactly how I imagine Alphys' to be That aside this is a really interesting video and I firmly believe you are correct in the confrontation of the next few chapters, I really hope Noelle grows to be more assertive and able to say no when she wants to and I also can't wait to see what happens to Rudy, I hope he recovers but I'd be okay with him dying if it means a more interesting story for the Holiday family Ink also wondering about Dess. It'd be awesome to see her in the next chapter!
I don't know if I agree with the theory that Mayor Holiday is the Knight and is opening fountains to look for Dess. we have information hinting that she was already this strict when Dess was still around, while a "looking for Dess" motivation would make much more sense if she became more strict and neglectful as time went on. the information we have so far just doesn't seem to lean that way for me.
Yeah, that's totally fair. It's why I touched on the Spamton Sweepstakes showing that the mayor was already pretty controlling even when Noelle was little and Dess seeing the red flags potentially. The knight interpretation was just one I've seen and wanted to address since I'd be remiss not to when I talked about it in a Dess video.
I feel like this again connects her and Queen. While talking to Sweet Cap’n Cakes, they say: “Queen wasn’t always so bad” “No, she was. She just got worse somehow” I think this shows that, while always having been strict and overbearing, the Mayor got worse after the disappearance of Dess
Fun fact about the mayor, her very position is itself a contradiction of prior material from UNDERTALE like the rest of Deltarune is. The very first line we hear out of the mouth of the Politics Bear in UNDERTALE was calling attention to the fact that there is no Mayor of Snowdin Town. The discrepancies just keeping piling up, getting thicker and thicker as time goes on.
@@Dorked In a way, I feel inclined to say that this dialogue about the Mayor was planted in UNDERTALE specifically as foreshadowing for the next game though...? Considering how out of left field it was in its original context, what with the presence of a mayor having little bearing or precedence on UNDERTALE, it almost seems too deliberate.
i am unsure about whether the Mayor has good intentions or not, but even so, someone can be abusive and toxic without really meaning to. i completely agree it might be her way of coping with Dess' disappearance and Rudy's illness, to the point where she might have become a workaholic so to speak and thus being hard on Noelle (even though it seems being strict and icy was already her personality from way back then, plus Noelle's whole thing about the house key and being scared of making too much noise is very concerning), though it doesn't excuse her actions, of course. even if Noelle and the Mayor manage to mend their relationship in a way, or put some of the stuff behind them, continuing to live with your abusive parent or at least still being emotionally attached to them is a decision you can make, by that point. there are cases and cases, but it's 100% fine to simply... leave it all behind if you can. drifting away is healthier, and you don't owe people who were abusive/toxic to you anything, regardless if they are family. it would be nice to see Toby go through with that direction, for example. sometimes things don't get fully resolved, or if they do, they don't go back to how they were before. that's a great message to show in a game like this. as for Dess, of course i already like her a lot considering i made a whole take on her + my own lore and all lol. i have my own version of all the events leading up to her disappearance and where she ended up which i plan to turn into a comic sometime. in my vision, Dess also heavily struggled with her mother, and given that comment about her wanting to take Noelle somewhere like Cyber City, i think she desperately wanted to move away with her sister but simply couldn't (you need a stable job, a plan, the means necessary to move on from your old life, support from friends and well, family etc. it's tough). her going missing was a mix of her being impulsive and running away + the bunker incident where Kris was involved. something "mundane", but very real that turns into the deeper lore stuff deltarune has to offer. i relate a lot to Noelle's and (presumably) Dess' struggle with family, so i'm excited to see how the Mayor will be tackled in deltarune, especially as someone who is sadly familiar with abuse and toxicity in general. long comment, but yeah
I love this channel for a lot of reasons but if I could say one good thing about this channel that sets it apart from basically any other channel is your description is well-managed you have everything talked about in the video linked and to be honest it's incredible
very thought provoking analysis! i love how open ended everything is right now with the lore- i can’t wait to come back to these videos and see what we were all able to predict :^)
I like to think that the festival will happen in one of the final chapters and be like the Deltarune equivalent of an anime beach episode but instead of being fun filler it leads directly into the roaring
a really insightful video :)! i enjoyed it a lot and i agree with wanting to see noelle specifically stand up to her mother and have a similar confrontation like the one she had with queen. it would be a bit repetitive so i'm not sure it'll happen, but it would be nice plus i really enjoy/appreciate you saying noelle and kris could have parallels with parent/player, especially since noelle's quote "i'll never be happy! not if i'm controlled by you!" has wording really specific to the themes kris represents as well but yeah :) super excited for ch3 and this video only hyped that up some more. i think queen is absolutely a parallel for *someone* whether that be the player or noelle's mother, or even both
These character analysis videos are quite fun and interesting to watch, while showing how care and detail work can really help write a great and enjoyable character.
Queen is by far my favorite deltarune chapter 2 character. That moment when Berdy said "But, you said you were a gamer!" and Queen says, "I only play mobile games." cracked me up.
I feel like the perfect climax to the story (before some shit goes down) would be Noelle confronting her mother in a dark world, and all her friends defending Noelle as well. ON THE OTHER HAND OH BOY SOMETHING BAD IS GONNA HAPPEN IN SNOWGRAVE Picture this: Noelle and her mother meet in a Dark World. Alone. Noelle's mother says something, and in the normal route, this is where Noelle would stand up for herself. HOWEVER in the SNOWGRAVE ROUTE, OH BOY She stays silent. She knows what's coming. You tell her to proceed. She stays silent. You tell her to proceed. She stays silent. You tell her to proceed. She stays silent. You tell her to proceed. She fuckin murks her mother, then leaves. She's now gone from the story forever. If we find Dess in the game at some point, NOPE, NOT ANYMORE. She murders her own mother, and then just disappears forever.
I relate with Noelle so much, because my mother was exactly like that, but in my household, things are much more complicated as I didn't really have a person within my family I can trust. I really like the way how Toby Fox wrote Noelle and gave people a character they can relate to 💗 And tysm for the analysis video! I enjoyed watching it very much and you have a very calm voice and a good way of explaining things ☺️
i think that queen's personality comes half from noelle's mom, and half from the internet. shes as much of a representation of noelle's mom as she is a representation of search engines and such, hence the "wanting the best for everyone" and giving em physical objects representing what they searched
Back when I played Undertale as a kid, I loved it, but I wasn't able to process the story all too well. Out of all analysis/theory videos I've been watching recently to refresh my memory, yours have been my favourite to listen to. ^^ Thank you for your hard work, and I look forward to anything else you create in the future.
i would also like to mention that the mayor having something against asgore might come from the reletionship between rudy and asgore it could be that they get along so well while she cant, or maybe that (as that one convo from the winter alarm clock suggests) asgore might be bi
0:18 what if her name is “Christmas Holiday”? Would fit with the theory that Dess’s full name is “December Holiday” and it makes sense for Rudy and Noelle to be the ones with none actual holiday names but Dess and C to have actual holiday names to fit the theme and they wanted their children to represent them… that’s probably a stretch but maybe one day Noelle also decided to search up her mother along with Dess and that’s how the December 25s got on the calendar in queens search list rooms? This is a stretch but it seems possible and it makes sense because I searched my mom’s name up randomly once and Noelle’s mom is the mayor.
Without having watched this video yet, I want to share my initial thoughts (Which will be accompanied by an edit once I'm done, should anything change). 'Bad Mother' as the thumbnail says, is a very broad spectrum. You can have explicitly neglectful and abusive to inadequate but trying, and I think Mayor Holiday falls into the latter half. I don't think she's intentionally neglectful, and Noelle certainly isn't in the same boat as Fanon-Susie, so the more basic needs are met, but there's definitely an aura of control and intimidation. Again, this may not be intentional, but it certainly exists, and is a problem. But ultimately, I still think she does care about Noelle's wellbeing, and all of this behaviour is potentially a side effect from the Dess situation. If we accept that Queen is a mirror of Noelle's mother (Like King may be a mirror of Susie's father), I think we see elements of the Mayor's true disposition. She wants to keep Noelle happy and safe, but isn't taking the initiative to ask what Noelle would want, just like Queen. The key difference there being that Queen isn't actually Noelle's mother, and that Queen isn't intimidating, really, which allows Noelle to brave it and take a stand. Ultimately, Queen is alerted to her oppressive decisions, and gives way to Noelle's actual wants, dropping her veneer of sanguinity (As characterised by her talk sound effect changing from the goofy, pitch warbling one to the more serious, normal one (which we only see in this scene, and when she's talking about the Knight)) to give Noelle the freedom to choose. If Queen is truly a mirror of Mayor Holiday, perhaps she would do the same. But, Noelle would need the courage to stand up and tell her that. ------------------------------------------------- I've finished watching the video, and I do have some things to say. First, when I talk about the different forms, what I was trying to convey is that I don't think Mayor Holiday's neglectful behaviour is that of malice, and I don't think there's any physical abuse or anything that severe. I still think Mayor Holiday (and while this isn't an excuse for her poor parenting) is unintentionally putting up an intimidating façade, and I do think it's possible that it's due to Dess' disappearance, grief or guilt manifesting as over-protectiveness. Yes, the conduct has existed since Noelle was a kid (according to the blog posts), but Dess has been missing since probably around that time, as the Spelling Bee that Noelle stumbled on and Berdly won was while they were kids, and Noelle stumbled because the word was "December". It's also likely that Rudy's illness only worsened things. As for the "Unplugging the game" thing, I always read that blog post as she was playing late at night, but reading it again there isn't actually a mention of that, so it might not be that. It's certainly concerning that the excitement scream is implied to have likely brought the same reaction from Noelle's mother, but that is just an implication and could theoretically be chalked up to Noelle being over-cautious.
Love your analysises! I like how you also mention that there's still a lot of info to be uncovered, since Deltarune is just in its starting chapters, while explaining your points and stuff!
I heard about Dess is Kris theory a few days ago and the way Queen makes a truce with Kris to find Noelle, reminds me of that abusive parent/golden child/scapegoat triangle dynamic where the parent and older sibling truce for golden child's good
I don't think Rudy is doomed to die. There might be a scenario where he does (especially the weird route which is just a huge wild card), but I think Toby was very deliberate in making it known that he does pass in Undertale's universe. Rudy's fate is likely meant to be one of those major events that diverge between the two universes, and I think it's being foreshadowed that Noelle will at least *attempt* to use the Dark World to save him. Queen is definitely meant to be *a* mother to Noelle, but probably not the same exact person as you say. Her various personality traits probably parallel traits from Noelle's mom, but Queen might almost be more reasonable... in a sense. I mean, her actual mom probably doesn't threaten to turn her face into a robot one, but Queen is at least able to make a 180° turnaround in the end, I expect her real mom to be a much more difficult person to deal with, with a lot more emotional baggage behind her. She won't be a straight up "villian" like King or Queen, but likely at least an antagonistic role. It'll probably be an interesting dynamic if she becomes a character in a dark world setting, I imagine it would involve a potential story about saving Rudy. Other antagonists have minions and machines at their disposal, but Mayor Holiday has political and family power dynamics.
Given that they say the mayor is aware of any crimes or bad acts that go on in the town, its possible she's already familiar with Susie and most likely won't be in favor of any relationship between susie and noelle.
I hadn’t considered this as a possibility before, but now that you’ve laid it out, I honestly think the mayor being the knight would be pretty great. I mean, that would make Noelle standing up to Queen have so much more impact if you consider it as a moment of foreshadowing. Showing how really ugly and nasty a person she’s become in the name of what she views as what’s best for her daughter and for the city could make her a really interesting and multilayered character. All of those motivations could build up to a beautiful yet tragic character arc, and seriously, I’d love to see Noelle finally stand up to her mother. It would be the perfect way of bringing the dysfunction in both the family and in the city (iron fist, police in her way, bordering on dictatorship) to the foreground as well as drawing some parallels between her relationship with Noelle and her relationship with the city and its various civil servants. The possibilities are endless and all very very haunting. As for queen, I think she’s less of a parallel and more of a different version. Like, she’s the mayor if she were more true to her intentions (I.E. not as far gone).
@@Minefan200 Well then, like I mean maybe Kris has some Timeline awareness? Though aside from that, I did say "inspired" not "gotten the idea wholesale", I think that, no matter what, Kris would've done what they did as they believe that what their doing is for the best.
@@StoryTeller796 Honestly, I'm not too sure how to feel about Kris having reset awareness. Considering that determination is redefined in Deltarune, and the game had explicitly avoided mentioning it up until Queen. Ralsei even has a cut line about Kris being able to "determine fate".
@@Minefan200 Oh okay then, that makes sense, I mean after all Deltarune's not Undertale, I just chucked that one out left field because I honestly don't really have a clue of where Kris' motivations or nerve lie for creating a new Dark Fountain. Also, hypothetically speaking, what are the legal laws about kidnapping a mayor and putting them on trial for their crimes?
When I saw this, I thought of the universal mother theory when it came to how Queen treats Noelle, but I didn’t expect it to come into the equation. Awesome stuff.
While I don't really see the parallels with Queen and Noelle's mom I am certainly worried for when we do meet Noelle's mom considering all the signs we have given about her
I always love your analysis videos. They're really well written. And if Deltarune does end up following this path, then it'll be extremely relatable for me (it technically already is ^^'). I have a toxic mentally abusive mother, but I'm far away from her now. Except she's always done everything for me. And now I'm 19 and I don't know how to be independant or responsible. I live at my father's place, feeling like a burden because all I do is sit on a couch all day while he works at a tiring job. The best I can do is follow my passion and try to make my creative projects work, but it's a very slow process, and I'm definitly getting more ignored than acknowlegded. Speaking of which, one of these projects is an animated show that mixes everything I created since I started in 2017. And surprisingly (or not ^^') it tackles the theme of mental abuse. The main villain, Dark Script, is inspired by canon Gaster and Reunitale Gaster (Reunitale being an Undertale AU and my first creation ever). But he's mostly inspired by the antagonist of Reunitale, a mirror version of Gaster called Dark Gaster (full name Dark Script Gaster). Of course, in the show, it's not Gaster and his design is different (even though the inspiration is pretty obvious). Though Dark Script is a nickname that he took after some major events that took place before the story begins. His real name would be something around the lines of Gerald Aster (the first name might change but yes. G.Aster ^^'). But Dark Script is also slightly inspired by Reunitale Gaster who, in Reunitale, is my character's father. I wasn't the best writer in the world back then, but I made something pretty sweet and coherent with that concept in the end. But then that means that Dark Script in the show is the father of my character in the show. And unlike Reunitale Gaster since he mostly has the personality of Dark Gaster, he isn't a good dad. So in the show, Dark Script was a mentally abusive father to my character, and even though that won't be revealed until season 2, the interactions will show that my character resents him a lot. It will be a good way to make a compelling and relatable story and express my feelings towards my own mother. I didn't expect my character to have such an important place in the show's story (she's not the main character though). But since that story is a mix of everything I've created, my character was bound to have an important role since she's my persona and the main character of most of these stories. There is so much stuff I haven't talked about, even about my character and Dark Script (like what is personality even is, because no, his character isn't just "toxic father). But of course there's also literally everything else. The other characters, the interactions, the backstories, the jokes and refs, the world they live in... but this comment is already long enough. Sorry that was really long but I think it's interesting to see how my personal experience with my mother's abuse ended up making mental abuse a theme in my own show. I'll just say one more thing, if you like Deltarune (and of course do, you're here), you would most likely enjoy this show. Undertale is my first fandom ever, and it inspired my writing style a lot.
The dogs say "over the holidays" and not that they wanted to break into the Holiday's house And if anything, they probably live in a mansion, not just a big house, indicated by that big gate I think they were talking about the Dreemur's house instead
I have a theory that Noelle and Dess had somewhat of a strange and intense relationship as siblings considering all the weird moments and dialog we have about them during the weird route. We know that even before Dess disappeared there was an air of "Lets run away from home together" considering the dialog about visiting the city at one point, so my unfounded suspicion is that, at some point, the two did make some kind of plans to leave home together, and that it was something really outside Noelle's comfort zone to do, and maybe in the process something happened to Dess that Noelle witnessed or was involved in somehow, and she now feels like living under her moms thumb is an acceptable punishment for whatever went wrong. That, along with Noelle's double down on her violent tendencies during the snowgrave route make me wonder if she's repressing a side of her personality that Dess brought out of her through rebellion against their mom? I don't know if Noelle did something to hurt anybody, but she did seem like she was in a trance going along with being under the players control during that whole thing, so I'm wondering if there's something in her past that predisposed her to violent outbursts... I'm seriously dying to know more so I have context for what's going on, because all the signs and foreshadowing lead to some WILD interpretations if you think about it.
8:59 this sort of makes sense, because if she was in the room when the fountain was created, it makes sense that some sort of parallel of her would make an appearance in the dark world aswell as this, the closer could have actually been where she hid when making the fountain because, as said when inspecting it (idk if this is just on snowgrave or all routes) it says it is big enough for a large person to fit
Yet another very good video. Noelle has been one of my favourite characters,and one i can relate to,so seeing all of the possibilitys,even if some hurt,i find very interesting.
i still really just need someone to open a dark world in the hospital already so noelle (or ralsei) can heal rudy would be interesting if noelle takes what she learned from queen and chooses the future she wants, opening up a dark fountain like queen wanted from the very beginning (also we know physical conditions link up between the two worlds considering berdly's broken arm in a normal route ending of ch2 where you attacked queen)
Happy holidays, to all who celebrate! Just for the occasion, I bring you a vid discussing Mayor Holiday from Deltarune and the worrying relationship with her daughter. If you came here from the recent Terra analysis (Kingdom Hearts), fret not! I plan to do more KH content in the near future. Ventus and Yen Sid videos are probably gonna be the next major topics. If you missed it, the Terra video is here: th-cam.com/video/Ruy5aYUijGE/w-d-xo.html If you wanna support what I do, my patreon is here: patreon.com/dorked And my Ko-Fi is here: ko-fi.com/invertedfate
Inverted Fate: invertedfate.com/chapters
More Undertale/Deltarune Analysis Content: th-cam.com/video/4VfHhBh1c8c/w-d-xo.html
More Deltarune Theories: th-cam.com/video/KueHgAZcV00/w-d-xo.html
Mayor Holiday art by yBlookynho: www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/te718w/speaking_of_communion_kris_did_you_know_that_the/
Undertale alarm clock: undertale.com/alarmclock/
11 hours ago? How? This video came out 1 minute ago!
@@obsessionsofthevoid I always do an unlisted upload first to test things, get captions ready, and get feedback.
@@Dorked oh okay
Ooo... I would totally be down for a Yen Sid analysis. (I don't like him, but also, I haven't like, hyperanalyzed every scene he was in or anything.)
Your
While we still need to actually see her
From what we know now, she is controlling and a perfectionist. To the point Noelle is too scared to tell her, she forgot her home keys.
This IS bad parenting. Regardless of if she's a good person or not. If you child doesn't feel safe coming to you over a tiny mistake.
Yeah, regardless of any motivations behind the mayor, the fact remains that Noelle is afraid of her, and that's really not a good sign.
Always when I see perfectionism i have an Omori flashback .
@@piotrmiler234 spoilers
she was perfect in everything in exception to her bad knee-
@HBegaming YT If this would be true you will be golden ;)
WOAH 1, whispypuff's comment is specifically omori spoilers, its such a good game so go play it if u have game pass or smth if its your thing, 2 dont read this if you dont want MAJOR VERY MAJOR THE BIGGEST SPOILER IN THE GAME spoilers also
Last chance, if you don't want spoilers dont read on here. Cover your screen or smth idk
ok.
HBe gaming add a spoiler warning. Really?
So far the game has depicted her as quite a cruel mother. The way both Rudy and Noelle talk about her already says enough and yet there is even more leaning torwards her very bad and way too strict parenting
Yyyeah, that's why I wanted to touch on the abusive undertones because I think there are just way too many red flags for it to be a healthy mother-daughter dynamic.
@@Dorked Deltarune is gonna rip our hearts to shreds, isn’t it? Something’s telling me the ending of this game and the fate of its characters aren’t gonna be as happy as undertale.
@HBegaming YT Yep. I’m in for the ride.
@@Dorked actually, wait. Isn't this almost exactly how ASGORE was characterized in UT? Maybe they are parallels, as Gorey was a deeply flawed lawful neutral in that world
@@deimos_da_boss2732 Could end up being the classic opposite.
Asgore was talked about like he’s the devil by Toriel in the beginning. But later on, Papyrus literally calls him a pushover and nicknames him Fluffybuns. Then we see that Undyne looked up to him like he’s a hero when she was young.
The Mayor’s descriptions from NPC’s could become worse as the chapters go by in contrast.
Dark Worlds seem like they're specifically designed to develop one of the Lightners inside. The first one gave Susie friendship in the form of Lancer, and a bigger bully to contrast with in the form of Spade King.
Similarly, Queen seems less like a reflection of the mayor and more like a test for Noelle to stand up for herself. She's a villain that can only be defeated by telling her no. Queen's "mother-like" attributes might just be there to make Noelle even MORE hesitant to say no, she reminds her of her mother.
That's actually a really good observation! It definitely does feel like each dark world presents an interesting test for the main characters.
wonder how he other characters will deal with their problems in the coming chapters,
@@Dorked i have a feeling it might be kris and toriel next, even if toriel isn't a darkner.
@@catmaster8232 well, neither susie nor noelle are darkeners
@@catmaster8232 I’m betting the dark world in the Bunker will be revolved around Kris and helping them.
My endgame prediction is Kris will find a way to rip us out without the process weakening or killing them, and we the stray soul will find and inhabit the original body we created that was discarded. In our new body we team up with Susie and Asriel to go into the Bunker’s dark world to confront Kris and their issues, and I believe Ralsei will side with Kris as it’s believed he was directly or indirectly created by Kris, so it makes sense that he’ll side with his creator. Kris will be the final boss, but not as a villain but rather an antagonist.
Honestly, the Queen is more of a motherly figure to Noelle than Noelle’s LITERAL mom which definitely is concerning, I definitely hope that we get more of Kris and Noelle’s family as I really don’t think Noelle’s mom is distant and Icey for no reason, but I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
If we're at it, we could say the Mayor perhaps to Dess's disappearance or separation from the Holiday family.
@catsex yes, it seems very likely that Noelle’s mom most likely distanced herself with work to distract herself of her decaying husband and missing daughter. But this video does bring up some great points pointing to Noelle’s mom maybe being abusive
@catsex However I guess we’ll just have to wait and see, I do think both chances of Noelle’s mom being neglectful and burying herself in work to distract her of her troubles and her just being an abusive mother and or wife are both plausible.
If it turns out that Noelle’s mom is abusive then it would definitely be interesting, however like stated in Undertale, I highly doubt she is neglectful without a reason as a monster’s soul needs to be made of kindness while a human soul doesn’t.
Wild prediction: Noelles moms name is Carol so her boss name will be something like ‘Carol, of the bells’
@HBegaming YT IMO "Carol of The Hells" sounds like the best name
That would SUCH a Toby thing to do!!
mother 1 reference
I feel like the story of the Holidays is one without villians, only victims, noone in it seems to be having a very good time
Yeah, I could see it being an Encanto-like situation where the real villain is the shared pain and trauma in the family and the lack of confrontation and communication.
Yeah, I like this theory in particular. I’m not sure if this implies to Deltarune as well but in Undertale if you go into the library you can read and figure out that a monster’s soul needs to be filled with kindness, and etc, while a human soul does not need to be filled with any sympathy or kindness.
Not saying all monsters are exactly good people but they MUST need a reason to be seen as bad right? Like flowey, he has no soul in his flower form, so he has a reason, Alphys obviously shows extreme guilt and was technically forced to do the whole experiment thing as she was ordered to do so.
@@S0m3B0z0OnTheInternet I was under the impression that the difference between monsters and humans isn't necessarily the same in Deltarune. After all, lighteners can have determination, which includes monsters.
@@S0m3B0z0OnTheInternet IDK about taking what the library says as 100% reliably true; for all we know that "monster souls are literally made of kindness and love!!!" thing could easily have been pro-monster propaganda from their war with the humans.
@@F1areon Yeah but there’s no real evidence to support that so again.we aren’t really sure. From my own observations, Toby seem to like hearing what the fandom comes up with instead of admitting things canon so he leaves a lot of stuff particularly vague.
Perhaps if we do get an Asgore and Rudy Chapter explaining the deal between both their families,it could build up to an arc of confronting the Mayor eventually, even if she's the Knight or not.
I'd love to see a chapter exploring Asgore and Rudy and their past. I think it'd be an interesting dynamic to show onscreen, since it's clear that the two are very close.
@@Dorked I'm not sure how but a flashback dark world could be cool. Maybe playing out like a short interactive scene created from a photo.
@@crispee_bills A photograph album gets caught in the dark fountain.
That would make an awesome chapter 4
since chapter 3 gonna take place in the living room with a TV, there could be old cassetes left to see or like old news idk.
Noelle's passive nature could very well be because her mother is abusive and controlling. She probably learned that it's better to just blindly listen to her orders then risk getting emotionally, or worse, physically beaten down. This would explain why she's so easy to manipulate in the Weird/Snowgrave route in chapter 2, you as the player are taking advantage of this poor girls unhealthy survival instinct.
But, there is hope for Noelle, Chapter 2's normal route has her slowly asserting herself throughout the chapter until she's finally strong enough to break Queen's control over her completely. That experience in the Dark World, even if she perceives it as a dream, strengthened her soul and made her realize that she deserves to have her needs/wants heard.
Yeah, I'm hoping that going forward, the experiences in chapter 2's normal route will help Noelle strengthen her convictions.
Noelle is easily one of my favorite characters and it's because I know what it's like to have that survival mechanism. I'm very excited to see where her story goes.
“Dess, being the older sibling, likely sensed the hostility of their mother and wanted to take Noelle away from the house, even if it was for a short time”
I felt this. Last year when the relationship of my family wasn’t in a healthy state, my sister said that she was leaving and taking me with her. Things are better now, but it’s weird that I can relate with a video game.
Who’s gonna tell ‘em that that’s kinda the point of video games
@@rockincradilyyyy8489 Who’s gonna tell you that not all video games are relatable?
@@ps4pro668 who's gonna tell you that most video games are
@@rockincradilyyyy8489 You just proved my point.
@@rockincradilyyyy8489Ah yes, first person shooter games, the most relatable of experiences
Noelle seems to be in a difficult situation with her family. Her mother is potentially abusive, her father is dying, and her sister... we don't even know where she is. It's interesting that there's more we know about Noelle's family than Susie's. Just how important will Noelle be to Deltarune?
I think Noelle is definitely important with all the angel symbolism, the weird route, and her being one of the main characters with a very specific response from the goner maker that's only shared with Kris and Susie.
@@Dorked I forgot about the Goner Maker! That makes me think she might be playable again in a later chapter. I wonder what that means for the Weird Route.
@@Dorked goner maker? What is it? If you dont mind asking i mean (Sorry for my ignorance)
@@felipelodamjmedeiros1079 The Goner Maker is the sequence at the beginning of the game. In the Goner Maker, a mysterious voice (Gaster) makes you create a vessel, and then name the vessel and creator. Gaster also discards the vessel when you finish, but what that means is unknown.
@@An_Account1 oooohhh now i get it,lol usually i call that Survey Program kkkkkk my bad. Hey,one more thing,how much do you think will cost the future chapters 3,4 and 5? Any idea?
Posted a week right before Christmas. Makes me imagine Noelle saying “Christmas! Just a week away.”
Yeah, I wanted to get it done by Christmas but ended up finishing much faster than that, so I figured I'd release a bit early. xD Gives me some time to chill over the holiday.
Can you believe it guys, Christmas is in a week I am so happy about this information
Snowgrave! Just a week away
@Spamton G Spamton™ hello Spamton you'r boss fight killed me like 5 times
You kind of got me thinking...
while I don't fully believe it myself (not that I think it's impossible, but it's just that we don't know enough about darkners yet)
there is this theory, that every darkner is created specifically for a lightner.
Like Lancer's purpose being Susie's first real friend for example.
This kind of makes Queen look like a practice mother, as weird as that might sound.
Someone who isn't as threatening to Noelle as her real mother, but who Noelle wishes to stand up against in a similar way.
Queen and the darkworld become like a safespace to Noelle, where she can practice standing up for herself to her mother in a, for her, safer environment, since it's more detached from reality.
Queen being a warmup for Noelle having to confront her real mother is a really interesting angle that I could definitely see.
Then what about Spamton G. Spamton?
@@BananaTrooper3650 uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Big Shot....
@@Ammiteur9 Maybe as a celebrity and inspiration to lightners?
@@BananaTrooper3650 maybe?
Honestly, I'm not sure what to think of Noelle's mother. I'm waiting until we actually meet her,however from what we know she doesn't sound like a very good mom. Since Noelle is my favorite character in deltarune, I hope she has some kind of happy resolution with her mother (especially if her father does end up dying). It would be great seeing her standing up to her and telling her mom how she feels. I'd love seeing her friends there as well for support, whether it be in the dark world or the light world. Also,at the end you mentioned so many good video ideas that I hope you do.
Yeah, the problem is having so many ideas and deciding which to prioritize. xD Maybe if we get more on Mayor Holiday in Chapters 3 - 5, I'll do a followup vid, because then we'll have some meaningful context to work with. For now, it's fun to try and piece together the limited info, at least.
I do wished noelle’s mother isn’t that bad of person, just not the best parent. Like there a lot of stuff that stressing her out (her daughter is missing and her husband dying), but her “officer parenting” isn’t helping noelle.
It's also the fact of losing a loved one that made it worse. Because as we can see in berdly's backstory, She broke down as soon as she heard "Dec". But here's a question I have: Why did Noelle get more confident in a snowgrave route?
Edit: Why the fuck did this dumb comment get 100 likes? Thanks ig.
The illusion of power by harming others.
I think it was the fact that she got "stronger," but even then, I'd say that confidence is complicated, given how terrified she was of us in her monologue scene.
It feels like. She didn't exactly get more confident. Weird Route showed Noelle that she had the ability to *take control*, but she failed to stand up for herself when it mattered
She didn't get more confident, she dissociated
I feel like I should clear some stuff up, I didn't mean "more" as in major. I just meant it as in a bit confident, But y'all are right. Confident is a complicated word for it, and I would happily change it if y'all want me to. Thanks for reminding me that I wrote my comment like a dumbass. XD
Something that bothers me is seemingly how readily the mayor kicked Asgore off the police force (since it was most likely her doing, given her power and status). He was very much invested in finding Dess, so... maybe there's some darker implications about the mayor going on behind the scenes. If she is the Knight, maybe Dess went missing because the mayor opened a dark fountain in wherever that large red door leads, and covered up what she did by removing the one person who was seriously invested in finding Dess.
Yeah, I do wonder what went on there. A part of me highly suspects there'll be some kinda flashback chapter to fill in the gaps at some point. I'd personally love to see that.
Where says Asgore was interested to find Dess
@@andygiraldo7898 A newspaper, though I don't remember if it was in the station itself or in the flower shop.
With the parallels between Mayor Holiday and Queen, I don't think things will go well. I like how Queen serves as a means for Noelle to eventually be able to face her. I've thought the theory that she's the Knight, opening Fountains to try and find Dess is quite interesting. Anyway, great video! I'd love to see how DELTARUNE as a whole develops (and also your content, like Inverted Fate).
Yeah, right now there just isn't a lot of positive information about the mayor other than she's efficient with what she does. Everything else skews way more negative. She's cold, she's scary, she has zero charisma, and Noelle is terrified of her.
Oh wow, yeah Noelle's home situation seems a lot worse considering the Snowgrave route. I wonder if Dess was treated like this when she was around. I'm honestly not hopeful on how good she'll be but I want to see Toby tackle abusive parents more head on (though I guess he could do that with Susie's.) and I want to see how Noelle and Rudy will stand up to that.
I do wonder if Dess being a more rebellious kid met friction with her mother. She's described as being into horror movies, having a wiffle bat that she whacked Kris with, and being very bold and adventurous.
i really wish channels like dorked, halfbreadchaos and mysticslime would get more recognition for these types of videos, i genuinly am in love with theory content, and i wish more people watch it
Hell yeah, i'm a fan of those channels. I also enjoy their videos.
I remember watching a video on the universal mother theory, of how Queen reflects all the lightners' mothers, but yeah Noelle's mother is definitely the easiest to spot and the most worrying. At least we can hope she learned enough courage from Ch2 to start standing up to her?
Yeah, I'm hoping future chapters continue to develop Noelle and let her stand up for herself around others and set her own boundaries more easily.
It's very tempting to say that Noelle's Mother is going to be cruel, and harsh, but this situation is reminding me of the way Asgore was described in Undertale. Before we met him, both Toriel and Undyne said that he would kill was just as he did the other humans, but when we met him, he was kind, allowed us to talk and to do any unfinished business we had.
I wonder if that's the direction Toby is going to go with Noelle's Mother.
He did something similar w/ Lancer's dad; all the Darkners in the area were scared of him, so players went "oh maybe it's another Asgore situation and he'll actually be sympathetic", but then NOPE
But in Undertale, there equal amount of dialogue showing his kind side, so needless to say if one focuses on the dialogue, they'd find out beforehand that Asgore is actually very kind.
However, with Noelle's mother no such indication has been seen.
@@utkarshtrichalxpearl4427 Mayor Holiday kinda seems like an anti-Asgore, an absolute cold to his absolute warmth, but both imprisoned by a sense of duty.
@@utkarshtrichalxpearl4427well tbf, the hostile red dialogue was about "asgore" and the friendly yellow dialogue was about "king fluffybuns" and "mr. dreemurr"
its easy to forget since its been so long, but we didnt really know those were the same people at first. its only when undyne says "king asgore dreemurr" that we put it together. 🤷🏼♂️
Y'know, seeing this kind of explains why Noelle would be friends with someone like Berdly and have a crush on Susie. The two are a lot louder and more expressively and don't have any or many friends due to being outcasts, which probably makes her feel important or needed. Berdly being protective of her is probably one of the few displays of affection she gets outside of her family, even if it's not the best... (seriously, Berdly my man, you get a point for trying, but dear lord, tone it down)
I would like to see the other fan projects, even yours in future. As for Mayor Holiday. I wouldn’t mind to see a harsher mother figure in deltarune. It only makes sense with all the signs of some kind of abuse Noelle shows. It doesn’t have to be crazy bad abuse, I mean kids get greatly affected by even little things. I think it will just be interesting to see her and her mother confront each other’s mayor holiday must be in pain too. She already lost a daughter in some capacity, and her husband is in the hospital. I don’t think she will be a one dimensional villain.
this is such a good analysis. something you said made me realize something about the mayor. at around 12 minutes i think you said the mayor doesn’t provide for Noelle, your 100% right but i think the mayor believes she is providing for Noelle by always working and being so hard on her. most parents in this kinda relationship always believe that their doing wars best for the kid and the child isn’t actually providing in the relationship. again really good analysis and sorry this is so long
No need to apologize! I've seen longer. xD But yeah, it's entirely possible the mayor isn't aware of how her actions hurt Noelle and thinks she knows better for her daughter than her daughter does for herself.
"which brings us to a certain character who certainly knows how to make an entrance"
right as you said that an ad played
I always saw the queen as what noelle sees in her mother, as in she wants to see the best in her, that’s why she is so goofy and her intentions are just to make noelle happy
I have a feeling that if Noelle stood up to her mother the same way she did with queen, it would get shut down shortly after it starts before gaining any momentum, Or it would backfire severely in the end making things worse. Now that I think about it, the weird route could affect how this would go if it happens. As well as Noelle’s actions afterward. Which could affect the main plot.
Unless say, Kris or Susie secretly films the Mayor beating Noelle, and we get a fight with her to expose her to the town?
Then she might retaliate, or at least attempt to, on the whole town dramatically.
I had a funny thought that, perhaps, decisions like the Snowgrave path could have a massive impact on who lives or dies as the story goes on.
Like for example, Noelle taking out Berdly also brought about more confidence in herself... and could help invigorate her Dad...
Or perhaps Berdly will be in a similar position to Noelle's dad, revealing that his condition might have been caused by being attacked in the Dark world. After all we have no proof that Berdly is ACTUALLY DEAD after being hit by Snowgrave.
I think he is still alive, considering he didn't evaporated and the don't forget lyrics, he can't be dead
@@SomeCatFromFrance
Here is the real question... when traveling to and from the Dark world. In game we see Kris and Suzie seem to Physically enter and then Exit.
But in Chapter two everyone seems to "Wake up" as if they had fallen asleep at the table.
Berdly is the only character we have seen that has been injured or Killed in the Dark World.
Which implies that the Darkworld is a dream like location, but following some funky rules.
Here are some extra details. Berdly may not have been killed, but rather had his spirit Frozen in ice. Leaving him in a comatose yet not dead state.
It is also possible the Death in the Darkworld means the DEATH of the spirit or soul. Leaving behind an empty body husk that slowly dies over time.
Quite frankly, we really dont know what happened. He COULD be fine. He could just be frozen, or his fate will be left ambiguous entirely because None Of Our Choices Matter.
This is a great analysis! I've thought a lot about this too, and I'm very eager to see how Toby will approach Noelle's mom in the upcoming chapters. I would assume that the first time we see her is in church, but if she's even too busy for that, I suppose that'd say a lot about her character!
I think church or the festival make a lot of sense. Maybe we'll finally get to see her during the next chapter release! Here's hoping. :)
I hope that we confront the people in the light world like the mayor or susies parents (if she has any), that the bonds and strength we gain in the dark world can translate to courage in the light world. I real confrontation between noelle and her mom about abuse would be the more mature story that Toby said he’s going for
Susie's family is so enigmatic. Is she a runaway? Did one of her parents die? Are her parents abusive or neglectful? It's way too early to say, but it's definitely intriguing!
@@Dorked I am dead certain her dad is the doofus running around town trying to just insinuate himself into different businesses through sheer enthusiasm.
When you said that her name may start with a C, i immediately Though of the name "Carol" which would fit incredibly well, so much so I'm confident this is her name. Carol obviously referencing to going house to house and singing Christmas songs. Who knows, she might even be a little like scrooge from the christmas Carol movie.
Oh boy, I can't wait for even more suffering, pain, and existential dread! In all seriousness, though, I absolutely love how Toby writes his stories, it really makes it feel like anything could happen, and for the most part, still make sense.
Yeah, Toby's got a knack for deep character writing and his ability to surprise even when you think you know what'll happen.
@@Dorked I honestly can't wait for him to make some completely off-the-walls secret boss for Chapter 3 that has nothing to do with the flowers or Mike, just some random dude named "Clumpy Mc. Boogle" who just full on swears at you as his speech quirk. The shadow mantle is just a censor bar, and is the only way streamers can beat him without being demonetized.
@@MeloniestNeon i love that idea 😂
Mayor Holiday just hatin' that Asgore knows how to steal her man with all those flowers
My opinion of the Mayor can be summed up in one phrase: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
I truly hope the mayor isn’t portrayed as a true 100% evil mother. I relate to Noelle and her relationship with her mother a lot, and yet I love my mom and I think there will be a way where we will have a happy relationship someday. I feel like it would be nice to give her good traits, bc maybe people can relate too. I know relating to a character isn’t the most important thing while writing but it kinda makes you feel seen a bit idk. Still I love Toby and I know whatever he chooses to do with the character will be pretty cool. Nice video!
I think it could go either way. She could have a kinder side that she just doesn't show. She could be unintentionally hurting Noelle by being too controlling and putting her expectations first. I think even if Toby does go a darker route, it won't be one that's hopeless, as Toby's writing is very heartfelt and shows that even characters who've done awful things like Flowey have nuance.
Dorked: “Intimidation and abuse.”
Jeans Commercial: *Plays Dubsteb*
Very rarely do I get so excited for psychoanalysises of fictional characters! Thanks so much for uploading!
Might comment more later!
Eyy, thanks! Hope you enjoy the video. :)
I feel like Noelle’s fear of her mom comes less from her being actively cruel than it is the fear of confronting her and saying “no” to finally voice her opinions. Being mayor is a very busy and stressful position to have and Noelle’s mom goes above and beyond for her duties. It leads her to neglect her family, however. It might be that she’s treating the well-being of the town to be synonymous with the well-being of Noelle and taking care of her by extension. There’s no crime, the town is clean, the residents are happy. Noelle should be happy. If she gives everything to her job, everything for the town, for Noelle, then she would get upset if anyone gets in the way of that, even her own daughter. She needs Noelle to do her part so the mayor can keep doing hers. As contradictory as it seems, some parents believe that the best for their kids is by staying away to work harder and provide for their family. Noelle is a shy, observant person who is very considerate of others despite her own personal feelings, so she would also put her mom’s priorities above her own and not want to make her mom’s job harder. Her mom’s display of affection might be similar to Queen’s, through gifts and demonstrations to show ‘look at how cool I am. look at how nice this place is. you can be happy here,’ without physically being there and actually listening to what her daughter needs. Noelle’s achievements are a double-edged sword. She might want to impress her mom and get her attention by getting awards and being top of her class. On the other hand, her mom would take it as Noelle doing just fine and continue to neglect her. Her mom has high expectations for her as the daughter of the mayor. Noelle could feel pressured to live up to those expectations and be self-sufficient in her absence. If anything, this could reach a peak and push Noelle to start acting out defiantly. Also, if Rudy dies, it would be just her and her mom, who isn’t there most of the time and might as well be just Noelle alone. Rudy being in a critical state or Noelle severely acting out, or both, would create the major crisis that finally gets her out of her office. (At least that’s my interpretation as a person who’s scared of confronting their workaholic mom)
sorry, didnt mean to write so much 🙈
I think that is a really good theory for what is happening!
Sorta getting Odalia Blight vibes from the info we have about her right now.
Hope for Noelle's sake she isn't THAT bad...
Oh yeah, I can definitely get Odalia vibes based on the limited info so far, and... yeah. Really hoping she's better than that, at least.
With anybody else at the wheel, I'd be nervous about the archetype of the "icy controlling career woman" thats being set up with Noelle's mother. However, I trust Toby to handle this character with all the nuance he normally employs. Also, I can't wait for Deltarune to come out fully so we can make a "best to worst parental figures" tierlist
"Icy controlling woman"
Sounds like Lusamine to me, actually.
Sure hope there's no interdimensional venomous jellyfish involved in the Holiday family drama... @@jeremychristianestillore1446
I think Noelle gets her blonde hair and trait of being afraid of everything from her mother. Dess got their mother's raw nerve. Both girls got Rudy's loving nature...
I think Clarice/Carol Holiday will be revealed to be Boss Monster class much like Susie, Sans, Undyne, and the Dreamurrs. Both of her daughters inherited this potential. But just as Sans wasn't motivated enough and the Dreamurr's were too gentle, Noelle has a ways to go...
Think We'll learn that "Proceed." was the go-to phrase Clarice/Carol would use to shut Noelle down whenever she would hesitate or protest when commanded to do something, and that Clarice/Carol is prone to stern, laconic speech general.
I think we may find out a lot of why Clarice/Carol refuses to be disturbed by anything unscheduled has to do with how much she is keeping under wraps...
While I agree she is connected to the Roaring Knight, I doubt she is the sole alter-ego of it. For starters, the Roaring Knight has been referred to as 'it,' rather than 'they,' which seems to imply we might not be talking about a person, here....
I'm pretty sure, however the details go together, Mayor Clarice/Carol Holiday is in reeeeeaaal deep with something related to the whole plot of Deltarune. I don't think she'll turn out to be a villain, but rather a character as tragic as her daughter December...
I'm kind of shocked that I never really made the connection between Noelle's passivity and her life with her mom before. Good vid!
I honestly would love for deltarune to go dark and darker
The ending of the game was born from a fever dream imagine the chaos that will be the ending and deltarune was the original idea before Undertale in 2011 in 2011 Toby first tweet was about darkness and dreams
I recently replayed Deltarune and spoke to Noelle and her father
Ever since Noelle sat outside the gate and her dad saying she was tough on her, had me thinking about that for a while
Like, is her mom really that tough on her? Is that why she's too scared to speak up? Or tell others off?
This part is a stretch, but maybe because she's so quiet and doesn't disobey rules is why she is so attracted to Susie. I mean, Susie breaks the rules and says A LOT of vulgar things. Noelle may like that she does whatever she wants when she wants; she probably wants that freedom too
I'm thankful this video is here. Especially since I've been thinking about Noelle and her mother's relationship
(Not saying Susie has it good btw, I'm just saying what Noelle might be seeing)
I personally wouldn't call a parent unplugging their child's console while they're gaming at night controlling but everything else lines up
This was such a good video.
I personally do believe that the mayor is abusive to both her daughter and to Rudy. And, I really like the theory that she's the knight.
But, we'll just have to see what Toby has in mind for her.
Fantastic video. I completely agree with how little the mayor has been explored compared to the other elements of Noelle's character, which is a pity since their relationship could very well explain a lot about Noelle as a whole.
I gotta say it's not looking good for her, the picture that's being painted is an ugly one, and one I very much could see Toby tackle in Deltarune. For all the whimsical magic and fucked up code stuff, DR can be a very real game through the subjects and situations going on in the light world, broken marriages, sickness, abusive homes, eviction, loneliness, escapism. It's very much in the table, and with the Spamton sweepstakes thing, I'm more and more convinced that it's the direction being taken, god, the goosebumps I got when I read that part, such an uncomfortable feeling. I love the parallel you made between Queen and the Mayor, cause while it's one that a lot of people have discussed, I hadn't seen anyone frame it as Queen being seen through rose tinted glasses, someone overdoting instead of absent, that's great stuff.
Really great video as always, I didn't comment on the KH video cause I didn't feel like I had much to add but I liked it as well, will continue to support whatever you upload!!
Hmmm, your comment on Noelle’s cryomancy in the dark world made me realize how much the holiday and Dreemurr Families are linked and mirror each other
Undertale had the dreemurrs use pyromancy, while Noelle, a holiday, uses ice magic.
Curious isn’t it?
Now I really want to see Noelle’s mother and Queen interact, in castle town or something. I can just imagine her being completely done at the sight of her inane shtick.
Might even be more lucrative than the possibility of Papyrus and Rouxls Kaard.
There are just so many great characters in Deltarune and Undertale, To be honest I just want to see everyone meet everyone. Like imagine Queen and Mettaton taking shots at eachother - Just a random example I hadn’t even considered before writing this but it would be so effortlessly glorious
It's difficult to speculate too much about a character like Mayor Holiday, given that she hasn't even appeared on screen yet. I could definitely see her being actively abusive, but I could just as easily see her merely being cold and distant with high expectations. All we know for sure is that she's not the type of parent that Noelle needs or wants right now. And I definitely agree that Noelle is going to need to stand up to her the way she stood up to Queen at some point.
Somewhat off topic, but since you brought up Rudy's possible death, I've recently become convinced that Rudy is indeed going to die, and Noelle is going to create a Fountain to try to bring him back through his funeral object, and that's what the Angel's Heaven will be - "Angel" because Noelle was referred to as one by the Addisons multiple times in the weird route, and "Heaven" because she'll be trying to create an afterlife. It may be a bit futile to speculate about endgame stuff like that when we're only two chapters in, but the idea of bringing back the dead as Darkners seems too tantalizing for Toby to not explore at some point, and that would line up extremely well with the endgame threat being called "Heaven," so I just can't get the theory out of my head. I can only imagine how a crazy sequence of events like that would impact the Mayor and her relationship with Noelle.
Oh my god your voice is exactly how I imagine Alphys' to be
That aside this is a really interesting video and I firmly believe you are correct in the confrontation of the next few chapters, I really hope Noelle grows to be more assertive and able to say no when she wants to and I also can't wait to see what happens to Rudy, I hope he recovers but I'd be okay with him dying if it means a more interesting story for the Holiday family
Ink also wondering about Dess. It'd be awesome to see her in the next chapter!
I don't know if I agree with the theory that Mayor Holiday is the Knight and is opening fountains to look for Dess. we have information hinting that she was already this strict when Dess was still around, while a "looking for Dess" motivation would make much more sense if she became more strict and neglectful as time went on. the information we have so far just doesn't seem to lean that way for me.
Yeah, that's totally fair. It's why I touched on the Spamton Sweepstakes showing that the mayor was already pretty controlling even when Noelle was little and Dess seeing the red flags potentially. The knight interpretation was just one I've seen and wanted to address since I'd be remiss not to when I talked about it in a Dess video.
I feel like this again connects her and Queen. While talking to Sweet Cap’n Cakes, they say:
“Queen wasn’t always so bad”
“No, she was. She just got worse somehow”
I think this shows that, while always having been strict and overbearing, the Mayor got worse after the disappearance of Dess
Fun fact about the mayor, her very position is itself a contradiction of prior material from UNDERTALE like the rest of Deltarune is. The very first line we hear out of the mouth of the Politics Bear in UNDERTALE was calling attention to the fact that there is no Mayor of Snowdin Town. The discrepancies just keeping piling up, getting thicker and thicker as time goes on.
Yeah, I think it makes sense, though. Deltarune is its own world with a different vibe and political structure. No monarchy, for one.
@@Dorked In a way, I feel inclined to say that this dialogue about the Mayor was planted in UNDERTALE specifically as foreshadowing for the next game though...? Considering how out of left field it was in its original context, what with the presence of a mayor having little bearing or precedence on UNDERTALE, it almost seems too deliberate.
@@ethanotoroculus1060 Yeah, I see what you mean! It adds to the gap between UT and DR with certain things feeling "off" or inverted.
i am unsure about whether the Mayor has good intentions or not, but even so, someone can be abusive and toxic without really meaning to.
i completely agree it might be her way of coping with Dess' disappearance and Rudy's illness, to the point where she might have become a workaholic so to speak and thus being hard on Noelle (even though it seems being strict and icy was already her personality from way back then, plus Noelle's whole thing about the house key and being scared of making too much noise is very concerning), though it doesn't excuse her actions, of course.
even if Noelle and the Mayor manage to mend their relationship in a way, or put some of the stuff behind them, continuing to live with your abusive parent or at least still being emotionally attached to them is a decision you can make, by that point. there are cases and cases, but it's 100% fine to simply... leave it all behind if you can. drifting away is healthier, and you don't owe people who were abusive/toxic to you anything, regardless if they are family. it would be nice to see Toby go through with that direction, for example. sometimes things don't get fully resolved, or if they do, they don't go back to how they were before. that's a great message to show in a game like this.
as for Dess, of course i already like her a lot considering i made a whole take on her + my own lore and all lol. i have my own version of all the events leading up to her disappearance and where she ended up which i plan to turn into a comic sometime. in my vision, Dess also heavily struggled with her mother, and given that comment about her wanting to take Noelle somewhere like Cyber City, i think she desperately wanted to move away with her sister but simply couldn't (you need a stable job, a plan, the means necessary to move on from your old life, support from friends and well, family etc. it's tough). her going missing was a mix of her being impulsive and running away + the bunker incident where Kris was involved. something "mundane", but very real that turns into the deeper lore stuff deltarune has to offer.
i relate a lot to Noelle's and (presumably) Dess' struggle with family, so i'm excited to see how the Mayor will be tackled in deltarune, especially as someone who is sadly familiar with abuse and toxicity in general. long comment, but yeah
I love this channel for a lot of reasons but if I could say one good thing about this channel that sets it apart from basically any other channel is your description is well-managed you have everything talked about in the video linked and to be honest it's incredible
very thought provoking analysis! i love how open ended everything is right now with the lore- i can’t wait to come back to these videos and see what we were all able to predict :^)
I like to think that the festival will happen in one of the final chapters and be like the Deltarune equivalent of an anime beach episode but instead of being fun filler it leads directly into the roaring
My headcannon is the mayor's name is Christmas.
I enjoy these kind of analysis videos so much. Keep it up, Dork. You deserve to get more recognition.
a really insightful video :)! i enjoyed it a lot and i agree with wanting to see noelle specifically stand up to her mother and have a similar confrontation like the one she had with queen. it would be a bit repetitive so i'm not sure it'll happen, but it would be nice
plus i really enjoy/appreciate you saying noelle and kris could have parallels with parent/player, especially since noelle's quote "i'll never be happy! not if i'm controlled by you!" has wording really specific to the themes kris represents as well
but yeah :) super excited for ch3 and this video only hyped that up some more. i think queen is absolutely a parallel for *someone* whether that be the player or noelle's mother, or even both
These character analysis videos are quite fun and interesting to watch, while showing how care and detail work can really help write a great and enjoyable character.
I just want to say that your a really talented and very cool content creator and you deserve more attention
Queen is by far my favorite deltarune chapter 2 character. That moment when Berdy said "But, you said you were a gamer!" and Queen says, "I only play mobile games." cracked me up.
I feel like the perfect climax to the story (before some shit goes down) would be Noelle confronting her mother in a dark world, and all her friends defending Noelle as well.
ON THE OTHER HAND OH BOY SOMETHING BAD IS GONNA HAPPEN IN SNOWGRAVE
Picture this:
Noelle and her mother meet in a Dark World.
Alone.
Noelle's mother says something, and in the normal route, this is where Noelle would stand up for herself.
HOWEVER in the SNOWGRAVE ROUTE, OH BOY
She stays silent. She knows what's coming.
You tell her to proceed.
She stays silent.
You tell her to proceed.
She stays silent.
You tell her to proceed.
She stays silent.
You tell her to proceed.
She fuckin murks her mother, then leaves.
She's now gone from the story forever.
If we find Dess in the game at some point, NOPE, NOT ANYMORE.
She murders her own mother, and then just disappears forever.
I relate with Noelle so much, because my mother was exactly like that, but in my household, things are much more complicated as I didn't really have a person within my family I can trust. I really like the way how Toby Fox wrote Noelle and gave people a character they can relate to 💗 And tysm for the analysis video! I enjoyed watching it very much and you have a very calm voice and a good way of explaining things ☺️
Would be interesting to see how she would react to the events of the Snowgrave route
i think that queen's personality comes half from noelle's mom, and half from the internet. shes as much of a representation of noelle's mom as she is a representation of search engines and such, hence the "wanting the best for everyone" and giving em physical objects representing what they searched
Back when I played Undertale as a kid, I loved it, but I wasn't able to process the story all too well. Out of all analysis/theory videos I've been watching recently to refresh my memory, yours have been my favourite to listen to. ^^
Thank you for your hard work, and I look forward to anything else you create in the future.
I subbed , anyways , I think this channel will grow very big.
Just remember the people who for you past the first 100k subscribers.
i would also like to mention that the mayor having something against asgore might come from the reletionship between rudy and asgore
it could be that they get along so well while she cant, or maybe that (as that one convo from the winter alarm clock suggests) asgore might be bi
Awesome again, Dorked! I really love this kind of analysis.
Thanks a bunch! :) Glad to hear you enjoyed.
0:18
what if her name is “Christmas Holiday”? Would fit with the theory that Dess’s full name is “December Holiday” and it makes sense for Rudy and Noelle to be the ones with none actual holiday names but Dess and C to have actual holiday names to fit the theme and they wanted their children to represent them… that’s probably a stretch but maybe one day Noelle also decided to search up her mother along with Dess and that’s how the December 25s got on the calendar in queens search list rooms?
This is a stretch but it seems possible and it makes sense because I searched my mom’s name up randomly once and Noelle’s mom is the mayor.
I kinda prefer "Carol" for her name bc calling her "Christmas" would make it way too easy to mix her up w/ "Kris".
Without having watched this video yet, I want to share my initial thoughts (Which will be accompanied by an edit once I'm done, should anything change).
'Bad Mother' as the thumbnail says, is a very broad spectrum. You can have explicitly neglectful and abusive to inadequate but trying, and I think Mayor Holiday falls into the latter half. I don't think she's intentionally neglectful, and Noelle certainly isn't in the same boat as Fanon-Susie, so the more basic needs are met, but there's definitely an aura of control and intimidation. Again, this may not be intentional, but it certainly exists, and is a problem. But ultimately, I still think she does care about Noelle's wellbeing, and all of this behaviour is potentially a side effect from the Dess situation. If we accept that Queen is a mirror of Noelle's mother (Like King may be a mirror of Susie's father), I think we see elements of the Mayor's true disposition. She wants to keep Noelle happy and safe, but isn't taking the initiative to ask what Noelle would want, just like Queen. The key difference there being that Queen isn't actually Noelle's mother, and that Queen isn't intimidating, really, which allows Noelle to brave it and take a stand.
Ultimately, Queen is alerted to her oppressive decisions, and gives way to Noelle's actual wants, dropping her veneer of sanguinity (As characterised by her talk sound effect changing from the goofy, pitch warbling one to the more serious, normal one (which we only see in this scene, and when she's talking about the Knight)) to give Noelle the freedom to choose. If Queen is truly a mirror of Mayor Holiday, perhaps she would do the same. But, Noelle would need the courage to stand up and tell her that.
-------------------------------------------------
I've finished watching the video, and I do have some things to say. First, when I talk about the different forms, what I was trying to convey is that I don't think Mayor Holiday's neglectful behaviour is that of malice, and I don't think there's any physical abuse or anything that severe. I still think Mayor Holiday (and while this isn't an excuse for her poor parenting) is unintentionally putting up an intimidating façade, and I do think it's possible that it's due to Dess' disappearance, grief or guilt manifesting as over-protectiveness. Yes, the conduct has existed since Noelle was a kid (according to the blog posts), but Dess has been missing since probably around that time, as the Spelling Bee that Noelle stumbled on and Berdly won was while they were kids, and Noelle stumbled because the word was "December". It's also likely that Rudy's illness only worsened things. As for the "Unplugging the game" thing, I always read that blog post as she was playing late at night, but reading it again there isn't actually a mention of that, so it might not be that. It's certainly concerning that the excitement scream is implied to have likely brought the same reaction from Noelle's mother, but that is just an implication and could theoretically be chalked up to Noelle being over-cautious.
“Which brings us to a character who knows how to make an entrance”
*cue state farm ad*
gosh, you are getting so good with your audio editing. yay
Hee, thanks! The help with recording and compression has really made a difference, I think.
@@Dorked yes, getting closer to the mic constantly will still help abit, but big improvements lately. great work, dorked!
Great video, Dorked! And BTW, Mettaton is my favorite Undertale character, so I’d love to see a deep dive into him!
Love your analysises! I like how you also mention that there's still a lot of info to be uncovered, since Deltarune is just in its starting chapters, while explaining your points and stuff!
Yeah, when it comes to theory and analysis, I really like to avoid acting like I have all the answers. xD;
I heard about Dess is Kris theory a few days ago and the way Queen makes a truce with Kris to find Noelle, reminds me of that abusive parent/golden child/scapegoat triangle dynamic where the parent and older sibling truce for golden child's good
I don't think Rudy is doomed to die. There might be a scenario where he does (especially the weird route which is just a huge wild card), but I think Toby was very deliberate in making it known that he does pass in Undertale's universe. Rudy's fate is likely meant to be one of those major events that diverge between the two universes, and I think it's being foreshadowed that Noelle will at least *attempt* to use the Dark World to save him.
Queen is definitely meant to be *a* mother to Noelle, but probably not the same exact person as you say. Her various personality traits probably parallel traits from Noelle's mom, but Queen might almost be more reasonable... in a sense. I mean, her actual mom probably doesn't threaten to turn her face into a robot one, but Queen is at least able to make a 180° turnaround in the end, I expect her real mom to be a much more difficult person to deal with, with a lot more emotional baggage behind her. She won't be a straight up "villian" like King or Queen, but likely at least an antagonistic role.
It'll probably be an interesting dynamic if she becomes a character in a dark world setting, I imagine it would involve a potential story about saving Rudy. Other antagonists have minions and machines at their disposal, but Mayor Holiday has political and family power dynamics.
Given that they say the mayor is aware of any crimes or bad acts that go on in the town, its possible she's already familiar with Susie and most likely won't be in favor of any relationship between susie and noelle.
I hadn’t considered this as a possibility before, but now that you’ve laid it out, I honestly think the mayor being the knight would be pretty great. I mean, that would make Noelle standing up to Queen have so much more impact if you consider it as a moment of foreshadowing. Showing how really ugly and nasty a person she’s become in the name of what she views as what’s best for her daughter and for the city could make her a really interesting and multilayered character. All of those motivations could build up to a beautiful yet tragic character arc, and seriously, I’d love to see Noelle finally stand up to her mother. It would be the perfect way of bringing the dysfunction in both the family and in the city (iron fist, police in her way, bordering on dictatorship) to the foreground as well as drawing some parallels between her relationship with Noelle and her relationship with the city and its various civil servants. The possibilities are endless and all very very haunting. As for queen, I think she’s less of a parallel and more of a different version. Like, she’s the mayor if she were more true to her intentions (I.E. not as far gone).
1:16 Kris is *probably* inspired by Spamton's and Jevil's chaotic wishes.
3:45 and also Spamton.
Not very likely, since the secret bosses aren't mandatory?
@@Minefan200 Well then, like I mean maybe Kris has some Timeline awareness? Though aside from that, I did say "inspired" not "gotten the idea wholesale", I think that, no matter what, Kris would've done what they did as they believe that what their doing is for the best.
@@StoryTeller796 Honestly, I'm not too sure how to feel about Kris having reset awareness. Considering that determination is redefined in Deltarune, and the game had explicitly avoided mentioning it up until Queen. Ralsei even has a cut line about Kris being able to "determine fate".
@@Minefan200 Oh okay then, that makes sense, I mean after all Deltarune's not Undertale, I just chucked that one out left field because I honestly don't really have a clue of where Kris' motivations or nerve lie for creating a new Dark Fountain. Also, hypothetically speaking, what are the legal laws about kidnapping a mayor and putting them on trial for their crimes?
queen= female ruler of a state
mayor= elected head of a city or town
if you think about it, that pretty much does sort of make the mayor a queen.
Great theory. Can't wait for the next meetup of the Undertale-Deltarune theorists
I've never heard the theory about the Mayor being the Knight before but honestly that would be okay with me. :)
Yeah, yBlookynho's art and concept is a really cool one and I think it'd be really rad if it was true!
When I saw this, I thought of the universal mother theory when it came to how Queen treats Noelle, but I didn’t expect it to come into the equation. Awesome stuff.
You really make me want to make my own theories for this game 😳
While I don't really see the parallels with Queen and Noelle's mom I am certainly worried for when we do meet Noelle's mom considering all the signs we have given about her
Yeah, Toby might surprise us, but so far she is certainly treated as rather intimidating!
I always love your analysis videos. They're really well written. And if Deltarune does end up following this path, then it'll be extremely relatable for me (it technically already is ^^').
I have a toxic mentally abusive mother, but I'm far away from her now. Except she's always done everything for me. And now I'm 19 and I don't know how to be independant or responsible.
I live at my father's place, feeling like a burden because all I do is sit on a couch all day while he works at a tiring job.
The best I can do is follow my passion and try to make my creative projects work, but it's a very slow process, and I'm definitly getting more ignored than acknowlegded.
Speaking of which, one of these projects is an animated show that mixes everything I created since I started in 2017. And surprisingly (or not ^^') it tackles the theme of mental abuse.
The main villain, Dark Script, is inspired by canon Gaster and Reunitale Gaster (Reunitale being an Undertale AU and my first creation ever).
But he's mostly inspired by the antagonist of Reunitale, a mirror version of Gaster called Dark Gaster (full name Dark Script Gaster).
Of course, in the show, it's not Gaster and his design is different (even though the inspiration is pretty obvious).
Though Dark Script is a nickname that he took after some major events that took place before the story begins.
His real name would be something around the lines of Gerald Aster (the first name might change but yes. G.Aster ^^').
But Dark Script is also slightly inspired by Reunitale Gaster who, in Reunitale, is my character's father.
I wasn't the best writer in the world back then, but I made something pretty sweet and coherent with that concept in the end.
But then that means that Dark Script in the show is the father of my character in the show. And unlike Reunitale Gaster since he mostly has the personality of Dark Gaster, he isn't a good dad.
So in the show, Dark Script was a mentally abusive father to my character, and even though that won't be revealed until season 2, the interactions will show that my character resents him a lot.
It will be a good way to make a compelling and relatable story and express my feelings towards my own mother.
I didn't expect my character to have such an important place in the show's story (she's not the main character though).
But since that story is a mix of everything I've created, my character was bound to have an important role since she's my persona and the main character of most of these stories.
There is so much stuff I haven't talked about, even about my character and Dark Script (like what is personality even is, because no, his character isn't just "toxic father).
But of course there's also literally everything else. The other characters, the interactions, the backstories, the jokes and refs, the world they live in... but this comment is already long enough.
Sorry that was really long but I think it's interesting to see how my personal experience with my mother's abuse ended up making mental abuse a theme in my own show.
I'll just say one more thing, if you like Deltarune (and of course do, you're here), you would most likely enjoy this show. Undertale is my first fandom ever, and it inspired my writing style a lot.
Live deer boy live
Here's hoping! Rudy's a cool character. It'd be nice to see him pull through.
The analysis of noelle holiday'mother in the relation for a daughter is a great video, good job for the video of analysis of noelle
I've never hated a character that I haven't even seen so much before
Love your use of Umineko music, it adds more to the analysis given how Umineko asks readers to do so.
Eyyy, thanks. xD Umineko has a great score and I just love the way it encourages thoughtful engagement with its story.
seeing this now I'm just gonna call her mom "caution"
The dogs say "over the holidays" and not that they wanted to break into the Holiday's house
And if anything, they probably live in a mansion, not just a big house, indicated by that big gate
I think they were talking about the Dreemur's house instead
If rudy dies i will be so upset i swear toby
I have a theory that Noelle and Dess had somewhat of a strange and intense relationship as siblings considering all the weird moments and dialog we have about them during the weird route. We know that even before Dess disappeared there was an air of "Lets run away from home together" considering the dialog about visiting the city at one point, so my unfounded suspicion is that, at some point, the two did make some kind of plans to leave home together, and that it was something really outside Noelle's comfort zone to do, and maybe in the process something happened to Dess that Noelle witnessed or was involved in somehow, and she now feels like living under her moms thumb is an acceptable punishment for whatever went wrong.
That, along with Noelle's double down on her violent tendencies during the snowgrave route make me wonder if she's repressing a side of her personality that Dess brought out of her through rebellion against their mom? I don't know if Noelle did something to hurt anybody, but she did seem like she was in a trance going along with being under the players control during that whole thing, so I'm wondering if there's something in her past that predisposed her to violent outbursts... I'm seriously dying to know more so I have context for what's going on, because all the signs and foreshadowing lead to some WILD interpretations if you think about it.
8:59 this sort of makes sense, because if she was in the room when the fountain was created, it makes sense that some sort of parallel of her would make an appearance in the dark world
aswell as this, the closer could have actually been where she hid when making the fountain because, as said when inspecting it (idk if this is just on snowgrave or all routes) it says it is big enough for a large person to fit
Yet another very good video. Noelle has been one of my favourite characters,and one i can relate to,so seeing all of the possibilitys,even if some hurt,i find very interesting.
i still really just need someone to open a dark world in the hospital already so noelle (or ralsei) can heal rudy
would be interesting if noelle takes what she learned from queen and chooses the future she wants, opening up a dark fountain like queen wanted from the very beginning
(also we know physical conditions link up between the two worlds considering berdly's broken arm in a normal route ending of ch2 where you attacked queen)