How to Sound Deaden Your Car. How Quiet Can You Make It? Results Before and After.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ค. 2024
- How to Sound Deaden Your Car. Results Before and After. In this video I'm going to show you how to sound deaden your car or truck. I will be using a three layer approach. The first layer of sound deadening is an 80ml butyl rubber from Noico. The second layer of sound deadener is a 150ml closed cell foam from Noico. The third and final layer will be a mass loaded vinyl sound proofing.
After each layer of sound deadening is installed I will be taking DB reading to compare each layer and see which layer made the most difference in the sound levels. Finally we will compare the noise levels stock and after adding all of the sound deadening products.
Sound Deadening Products:
Noico 80ml Butyl Rubber: amzn.to/3mUUVtr
Noico 150ml Closed Cell Foam: amzn.to/3DKgIKZ
Mass Loaded Vinyl: amzn.to/3lLBhAF
Products and Tools I used to install the sound dampeners:
Noico Roller: amzn.to/3mXq6nP
Kneeling Pad: amzn.to/2Z2V85E
Trim Removal Tools: amzn.to/3lKZLKs
Clip Release Tool: amzn.to/3ANAWBA
Scissors: amzn.to/3jqrlev
Utility Knife: amzn.to/3pbau2L
Degreaser: amzn.to/3lIB4Oy
Vinyl Cement: amzn.to/2YYpx5g
Foil Tape: amzn.to/3lIssHR
My Amazon Store: www.amazon.com/shop/repairgeek
Help support the channel, buy using my Amazon links
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases and your cost is exactly the same.
I source all of my service data from the same place that professional shops do. You can as well: www.pntrac.com/t/SENKSUZKRktD...
Low noise Continental Tires: www.continental-tires.com/car...
Questions? Shoot me an email at repairgeek365@gmail.com
00:00 Intro
00:12 How much change can you expect
01:48 Sound deadening products that I'm using
2:51 Tools that I'm using to install the sound deadener
4:10 How much will this weigh?
4:57 How much do I need to buy?
5:30 Will the weight affect performance of the vehicle?
6:40 Do I need to use every layer?
9:07 Baseline sound readings w/ full interior (Stock)
10:34 Baseline sound readings interior removed
10:54 Noico 80ml Butyl Rubber installation
16:24 Noico 80ml Butyl Rubber Results
18:22 Noico 150ml Closed Cell Foam Installation
21:54 Noico 150ml Butyl Rubber Results
23:53 Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV) Installation
26:12 Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV) Results
28:39 Final Comparision Stock Vs Deadened
30:23 What do I think of the difference?
30:18 Is there anything else I could do to make the car quieter?
31:20 Could I have done anything else?
33:08 Vehicle Engineering
33:34 What can you expect with your vehicle?
34:00 Outro. Thanks for watching!
#sounddeadener #soundproofing #noico
Disclaimer:
The information, demonstration and any content contained in this video is for informational purposes only. The user Repair Geek makes no warranty, express or implied, regarding the effectiveness or safety of the contents of this video. In no way should the contents of the video, including the tools used, be repeated or tried by anyone. Viewers should only seek the help of a trained professional located at a licensed auto repair shop for any fix, modification, alteration, or any change to their vehicle. Repair Geek shall not be liable for any injury, damage, or loss to any person or property that may result from use of the tools, equipment, or any content contained in this video. In addition, there is no way to guarantee that the video is not altered or modified or is not in the final form submitted by Repair Geek and therefore, Repair Geek does not warrant that the video is unaltered or not modified. The links on this video to products are for informational purposes only and in no way are an endorsement of the safety or effectiveness of the particular product. Viewers understand that anything contained in this video or linked to or from this video is the sole responsibility of the viewer and in no way provides an express or implied warranty as to the safety or effectiveness of any linked tool, product, or video. Therefore, viewer agrees to release, waive, and discharge Repair Geek or anyone affiliated with Repair Geek, from any and all liability, claims, demands, actions, and causes of action whatsoever arising out of or related to any loss, damage, or injury, including death, that may be sustained by the viewer, or to any property belonging to viewer, regardless of whether the loss is linked to the use of the contents of this video, or otherwise and regardless of whether such liability arises in tort, contract, strict liability, or otherwise, to the fullest extent allowed by law. - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I added chapters to this video because this video is so long. If you guys have questions check the chapters of the video and you may very well find your answer. Thanks for watching.
Sound Deadening Products:
Noico 80ml Butyl Rubber: amzn.to/3mUUVtr
Noico 150ml Closed Cell Foam: amzn.to/3DKgIKZ
Mass Loaded Vinyl: amzn.to/3lLBhAF
Products and Tools I used to install the sound dampeners:
Noico Roller: amzn.to/3mXq6nP
Kneeling Pad: amzn.to/2Z2V85E
Trim Removal Tools: amzn.to/3lKZLKs
Clip Release Tool: amzn.to/3ANAWBA
Scissors: amzn.to/3jqrlev
Utility Knife: amzn.to/3pbau2L
Degreaser: amzn.to/3lIB4Oy
Vinyl Cement: amzn.to/2YYpx5g
Foil Tape: amzn.to/3lIssHR
My Amazon Store: www.amazon.com/shop/repairgeek
Help support the channel, buy using my Amazon links
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases and your cost is exactly the same.
Does the butyl rubber also reduce heat from the tranny, and exhaust pipes running under the car ? if so how many degrees would you say it reduced ? thanks
@@HOTRODRICO the foam does more for heat than the rubber. This being a FWD car it doesn't have much for trans heat. With the entire interior covered in foam it does make a noticeable difference in the insulation.
Be VERY interested in temperature change with this insulation. Inside ambient temp vs. outside temps, in hot and cold weather. Great video.
This first and third layers are way more easier to install….if you use oven mitts and warm up pieces in a oven(low heat)to just enough to make them compliant….rub them into place with mitts ….try it you’ll never do it the hard way again…cheers
How long did each process take? Interior removal, layer 1,2,3, and then full reinstall?
I am a retired Mercedes Benz technician. Here I am talking about only S class. Yes they engineered to be quite. Every inch of this car has extraordinary insulation including very heavy padded floor carpet. It is so heavy that flooded car carpets are impossible to remove by one person, even though it is divided in 4 sections. Your job is outstanding and very laborious. Once you get old ( 60s ) you won’t believe that was you, who can perform such a hard work. I enjoyed and appreciate your each minute of hard work. Thanks 🙏
Mercedes also likely uses thicker glass. Sound deadening alone won't do the job
@@zelowatch30 Not only that, the vibration of the engine itself is also a great deal. Sound dampening of the engine compartment too. And the quality of sound on such a luxury car is vital too, 30db of jazz music doesn’t sound the same as 30db of me scratching the blackboard with my finger nails. Small things such as the door thunk, exhaust note(Lexus tasked Yamaha music division to specifically tune the engine sound in the cabin for the LFA so it sounds like a ear porn), or even just a combination of wind and tire noise.
@@franksun4017 I didn't know you could do much about the engine part.
As you have the experience yourself, would this help much with oldtimers like a volvo 245? Thanks in advance!
@@emielcors Sound deadening can help almost any car as long as you are willing to put in the work to get the required coverage. The less deadening there is from the factory the more you will benefit (in exchange for adding weight to older, lighter cars). One thing that will happen though is that if you greatly reduce road noise, a lot of other noise starts becoming apparent. A trim piece squeaking quietly that you couldn't hear over road noise may become very apparent. You can track down these friction points and put adhesive backed felt between the panels.
I put two bits of foam in my ears and the difference was AMAZING.
That’s terrible
ROFLMAO🤣
Hahahahahahahaha
How was the install? Are you going to win awards?
earplugs may do a better job
As an audio engineer I think you’ve limited yourself to analyzing decibels which is just a measure of loudness when in reality what is evident from the video and even more important in my opinion is the frequency spectrum was reduced to the lower vibrational waves which will never go away unless you replace the floorboard with a few inches of lead. You have successfully reduced the noise and loudness of the mid and high frequency range of hearing which clearly results in less harshness while driving leading to reduced fatigue and a better driving experience.
If you attempt testing noise level again, use a spectrum analyzer instead of a db meter.
It will show you what differences there are at different frequencies rather than just a general noise level.
Yeah I noticed the noise in the car seemed to be much higher frequency after all the deadening he did.
You can also see this in video edit software usually
maybe he should have two or three meters at different locations?
@@MechaneerI think you misspoke. It’s obviously much lower frequency after the install. That’s the intention of these products as well.
@@corbinslaymaker3346exactly. The entire point is to lower the pitch/frequency of the noise. It’s a way to get a more subjectively quiet environment relative to what just an SPL meter will tell you. A higher frequency at the same SPL as a lower frequency will sound subjectively louder.
Excellent video!
FACT:
On the Jazz/Fit or any Hondas, the biggest reduction of road noise/tyre roar comes from extensively treating the FRONT fender chamber and fender liners. The road noise creeps out via that tall thin gap behind the front door hinges.
The fender liner must be lined with Dynamat type of constrained layer dampener+foam, while the chamber should be sprayed with underseal. Most importantly, the tiny airspace directly behind where mudflaps reside shd be stuffed with waterproof material such as Thinsulate.
This will give significant reduction of road noise which must be BALANCED by a reduction of engine noise by treating the underside of hood.
And then, you can progress to the next most significant area (in order of importance):
2. The 4 doors
3. The 2 rear wheel humps
4. Front floor
5. Rear floor
6. Roof (the last).
For a further highly noticeable reduction in exterior noises, and done to all my Hondas:
Install 3M additional rubber door seals. Stuff THINSULATE into both A-pillars as both are hollow with tiny holes acting as a flute, and amplifying windnoise and tyre noise that slams onto the 2 pillars.
In your situation, since you hv even used MLV, thats excellent. But you have missed out 4 critically important areas that can give you another approx 4db of reduction:
1. Front fender wells (super critical)
2. Under undercarriage (shd be sprayed with any suitable compound or just plain undersealant) Significant difference.
3. Stuffing A and C pillars with Thinsulate.
4. Additional rubber door seals.
All the above were done to my 9yr old Honda City and the results were marvellous! Avg 8db of reduction at 80kmh over the same stretch of tarmac. No MLVs used.
Even the Honda mechanics noticed the significantly quiet interior😜
This is the best in depth comment so far and I hope it gets pinned. I’m gonna use this as reference for my Honda Fit
Don't you worry about stuffing material into cavities just becoming a thing to hold moisture, even if it is waterproof condensation can form on it and then lead to rusting from the inside out. Thinking of doing this to a classic car for reference.
@@admiraldirtbag4336 most modern cars are zinc coated on the inside, so rust is no longer an issue. However, in a classic car, that could become a problem, depending on your climate.
The real tutorial is always in the comments 👍🏼
Thanx for the info, bin looking to get a FIt for a daily and installing a SQ system in it also
Having 3 different layer tests throughout one video was by far the most in-depth I’ve seen someone go on this topic. Well done.
5 layers if you count "bare" and "finished"
thats because they arnt suposed to be layered like this.
Definitely was!!!
I have sound deadened a large sprinter van and can confirm that 20% coverage of butyl rubber works perfectly. Place a square of butyl in the center of large panels to stop reverberation. Don't bother with tightly pressed curves because they don't reverberate. Olny use the closed cell foam on inside of side, roof and door panels. Forget the vinyl, stock carpet is fine.
High end cars with double glazed windows are the quietest you will see. A very limiting factor with cheap cars is thin glass which lets in lots of outside noise.
I've wondered if ceramic window tint helps with noise. They even make clear ceramic tint that can be used on windshields.
It would probably help to wrap the butyl around the edges of large panels as they are most prone to reverberation.
@@bradh6185it will not help. Only pie glass glue glass
@bradh6185 ceramic tint only really helps with uv/sun light.
Considering that every 3 db less, reduces the perceived noise to half for the human ear, you just reduced the noise in your car to less than half 👏👏👏👏
The sound db scale, is not linear for the human ear, it’s progressive 😉
No, 3 db is twice/half the sound energy. A 10 dB is required to double/half the perceived volume.
Nice work! The decibel scale is logarithmic, so even a 1.5-2 dB drop like you had in the early stage is pretty significant
Yes. 82dB is like 1.5-1.6 times as loud as 80dB.
@@benjamin4321 Base 10 logarithmic actually.
I love math.
but human ears are also logarythmic so it doesn't matter
talking just loudness, usually a 2dB difference is negligible... anyone can do an experiment to get a feel of what +/- 6 dB is: play a song on your phone and listen to it from one feet away then step further to 2 ft.
that's a -6dB reduction in loudness (SPL vs 2x distance). do the distance math for a 2dB reduction.. barely noticeable difference in loudness :}
THAT being said, the road noise is comprised of many pitches and eliminating SOME of them will not reflect in the total dB count as much as in the dB reduction of certain frequency ranges.
and that's what the video shows, some fqs are clearly quieter, and being somewhere in the mid fqs, that helps a lot as our ears are more sensitive to the fq range of the human voice... hope this helps, take it easy
this is a video that ask people NOT to do the hard work by themselves, 'cause it's too damn hard. Thanks. I cannot image, how much planning, how many miles of test drive, how many hours of research, all of these spent on this video. Huge appreciation. I cannot do it.
I put over 50 miles on the car just test driving to get the various sound levels at different stages.
@@RepairGeek
Wow. You drive one way of my daily commute. Life must be so hard for you.
@@Peter-ff1tp your daily commute is over 100 miles? That’s kinda horrible ngl
@@Peter-ff1tp congrats your daily commute is fucking miserable, you get an award!
@@Peter-ff1tp Oh sorry, I didn't realize it was a contest. We're all very impressed with how much time you waste every day. 😂
I did an entire 80 series landcruiser . Floor, doors, roof firewall and tailgate with foil and foam. took me 50 hours to strip, then install and reassemble. The difference in that particular vehicle was amazing.
Tip for viewers= if you can still see the diamond pattern in the foil, you have NOT rolled it down enough and results will suffer.
Getting ready to do this same thing on my 80 series amidst an engine swap. Thanks for the tip! How many square feet of one layer did you think you used?
@@clockworkleather120
@@clockworkleatherhello brother, I want to do the same in my car, will. it reduce the road noise.
You should post a video of how it sounds etc
@@RiseUpRoyalAce I dont own the 80 anymore, but I would say it was comparable to a newer suv, the difference was massive.
Recently restored an early 90’s Nissan. Adding butyl and foam inside the body and door panels made a noticeable difference in road noise, similar to what you observed. Replacing the 30 year old door and window seals made a significant difference as well. The amount of time you spent making this video is commendable. I like how you told the purpose and function of each layer, and what they will and will not do.
4-5 DB is more than appreciable, 3 db means that the sound pressure is cut in half, the db scale is logarythmic so the work you done worth every penny and sweat invested.
going further involves redesigning the suspension links to the shell and of course, the powertrain supports.
even the tire choice have an impact on the noise transmitted to the shell.
The exhaust system have an important role to play, even if it seems not loud, it generates frequencies that are likely easier to transfer to the shell.
The noise that the easier to dampen is the noise that is not produced.
you done a very good job on your Honda Fit.
The reason sound pressure level uses a logarithmic scale Is because that's how humans perceive sound. A 3 dB level change in sound is generally considered the smallest change the average person can distinguish.
@@MilkyWayJoel the A scale ( Db A ) is the compilation of the sound corrected by frequency bands to conform to the human audition, it is usually the base frequency used on all sonometers, on higher grade sonometers, you can read, for each frequency band, the noise reading. It is very useful when performing noise reduction work.
@@jacquespoirier9071 A weighted scale has nothing to do with what I just said. As you said, it corrects for how human hear different frequencies relative to one another. That doesn't change how at a given frequency, it takes a large change in Pa (about double) for the average human ear to perceive it. Google "smallest db change person can notice." Skilled listener can hear 1 dB difference, average person can hear 3 dB difference.
@@MilkyWayJoel Decibel is logarithmic. A drop of -3 be it in dB, dBm or dBw means that you lost 50% or that the difference is a factor of 2. Has nothing to do with human perception.
@@sliwka621 Yes going by the measured numbers he successfully cut sound level down by half. My point is if that's the smallest change the average person can even tell in a back to back listening session, was all this work successful? I don't see how the answer is yes.
That final comparison gives me 2 impressions : You got rid of most of the high frequency hisses that are really irritating and you end up hearing the engine more than the road noise. I'm fairly sure (even without a drastic reduction in dB) that the result is a much less fatiguing noise compared to what it was before
Exactly. "Fatiguing." Longer trips should be easier in this car now, enabling the driver to stay more alert longer, and therefore safer.
Apparently it's possible to add too much of a certain type, maybe the CLD type. Supposedly you only need to cover 25-33% of the metal with closer to the middle areas.
Story of my life. I hear the engine more now then ever. I won't be tearing up my fire wall lol. That's too much puzzle
You do NOT need 100% coverage, and this can be validated with knock-testing. It's especially easy to test with the roof, because when you tap again a proper application of CLD tiles on the roof it will make a very dead "thunk" noise as opposed to the hollow noise without the contrained-layer applied. This difference in sound is due to the panel's inability to resonate due to the increased inertia of the butyl layer.
You should also apply the CLD to the pillars, especially the larger C or D pillars, because they can act like an echo chamber. The inner door panels do not need it as much
Had I only covered half, I would have had people saying I should have used more...
It's such a pleasant change to find a video that doesn't dumb down a subject.
As someone that works in the NVH industry for a car manufacture, I will add that another thing you want to do when sound proofing a car is to cover up any holes that are not being used for bolts or plastic clips. Like at 25:55 on the left side where the wiring harness runs along below the doors, there's a small hole that can be covered just below the harness. Block off the open areas around the seat belt retractors, etc. Any open holes are a pathway for noise.
I also think some cars are just not designed with sound in mind. I don’t even have MLV yet on my car and mines sitting at 62db at 65mph. I believe this car was designed with noise reduction in mind so adding the first 2 layers helped it even more so
Perfect answer. Another additional step is to fill the void with a non-water retaining material. Polly fill stuffing. Some used fiberglass. Then once stuffed, cover the area up
This doesn't make that much of a difference in all reality but keep thinking it does
@@pitbullkngz7236 I've only been in the industry for 10 years and know nothing. Got it. What do you do exactly sir?
@JTube571 work on vehicles and been doing it for like 22 years the change those things you talk about are so minor you can't tell the difference your better off doing the sound insulation in the panels those small holes are so miniscule in the change the human ear doesn't notice
OH MY GOSH. I only did the back area of my Mazda and there’s no way I was adding recording it for other people.
No one will EVER know the work you put into this video and it’s greatly appreciated. Thank you
Was there much of a difference just doing the trunk? There’s a lot of bare metal in my trunk just begging for this treatment…. :)
It is a massive pain in the ass that took a full weekend for me to get done in my Accord.
Oh I know, freaking taken everything apart is a skill on its own
@@Philitron128 Did you do the whole car? I'm curious on your point of view and whether or not it was worth the effort.
@@tapig3322 I did. Even covered the trunk. Is it quieter than before? Yes it absolutely is. The sound profile of the car has also changed, it's a more pleasant noise. But it isn't silent by any stretch.
However, it is a lot of work and it is really time consuming. If you want to do a full car job, expect it to take at least two full days. Taking an interior fully apart is a massive pain in the ass, and putting it back together with extra material involved sucks even harder.
So take that as you will. I can't say that I recommend it because it's a massive time investment for what amounts to less and more pleasant noise.
There's a MASSIVE change in the pitch of the noise. The best way I can describe it is tire hiss, the tire hiss sound of the tires on the pavement is drastically reduced. Thanks again for the video, this is VERY informative and I appreciate it. I'm in the process of trying to quiet down our 2022 Bronco while upgrading the horrible audio system to something that is much more enjoyable. This is a brand new territory for me when it comes to installing sound deadening and your video has been the best one I have watched out of maybe 10 videos that are covering this process. Thanks again!
I studied noise control at university. I wouldn’t expect a lot of reduction from treating the floors, roof and firewall since the window glass has no treatment and I suspect a lot of direct noise radiation comes from the glass. I did a “poor man’s” treatment of my car with limited results. Thanks for your video! I won’t waste time or money trying to do a deluxe treatment. Clearly a case of diminishing returns!
he used cheap products AND left out many products in areas that actually matter most.. Also it is important to note every car will return different results. I was able to drop over 10db in my accord. But i put much more material in my car and esp in the weak areas like doors and roof. There is a science behind it and if you dont understand it then it is pointless.
So how come luxury cars are quieter than budget cars? The answer is they have better soundproofing.
@@WetLettuce-kc2qm Depends how luxury. A lot of lux cars will have thicker glass, which is great. But even better, some cars like S class, Genesis etc, actually have double layered side windows, and acoustic front windshields.
Also improving the aerodynamic of the car helps.
Get rid of that roof rack.
More luxury tires not geared for high performance driving but with softer rubber and sidewalls, smoother treads with fewer aggressive tread blocks.
That's the thing you also wanted to explore.
It's a give or take exchange in other performance.
@JayeBass please expand on this or even better make a video following up on this in the correct manner
This looks like a lot of work, installing sound deadening and recording it. Thanks for making this video 👍
@RepairGeek~ Excellent video! I'm a Speech Language Pathologist & Audiologist. I wanted to add some observations about your "sound db meter measurements" and the limitations of the type of db meter you used to measure the "Before and After" noise changes. Sound is measured by TWO aspects: # 1] Amplitude (Volume/Loudness): High Amplitude is Loud and Low Amplitude is Quiet. Amplitude is measured in Decibels (db). #2] The "Frequency" (Pitch) High frequency is a high-pitched sound, low frequency is, well, low. We measure frequency in hertz (Hz) and kilohertz (kHz), which is thousands of hertz.
Lower pitches travel further and pass through objects more easily than higher frequency sounds. Every sound we hear, including each other's voices, is a complex combination of different high and low frequencies. The frequencies and how we hear them can be impacted by the environment. All the pitches that make up any one sound are important to the experience of that sound and the removal or quieting of any of them, can change our experience of that sound. So, for example, when you hear someone talking on the other side of a door their voice sounds different because the higher frequencies in their voice do not carry through the door as well as the lower pitch parts. When high pitch sounds are quieter they sound like they are further away, because high pitch sounds/high frequencies don't travel as far or through objects as well as low pitch sounds/low frequencies. (It's why the kid in your elementary school class with the deep voice always gets caught talking in class... because their voice carries further and more powerfully than the kids with higher pitched voices.)
SO.....while your DB METER measured the gross AMPLITUDE/LOUDNESS, it did NOT measure the FREQUENCY/PITCH of the sounds inside the Honda while you were driving. This is why you perceived a bigger difference in the sound level within your car after you added the sound deadening than what your DB meter indicated. The DB Meter you utilized did not measure the change in Frequency/Pitch of the sound within the car!! Sounds, such as the tires whining against the road or howling of wind outside the car, are HIGH PITCHED SOUNDS. Your sound deadening install altered the Frequency/Pitch of those sounds too!!
I would venture to guess that, IF you were to MEASURE BOTH the DECIBELS and HERTZ within YOUR Honda Fit vs another Honda Fit of the same year, you would see a tangible and SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT IN YOUR CAR after the sound reading install!! I believe you altered the interior sound much more than your test revealed!
Great video Repair Geek! ~~Christy~~
Thanks for explaining some of the science here Christy. I'm a mechanic by trade so measuring the frequencies never even crossed my mind making the video. Thanks for watching!
@@RepairGeek Question is, would you do this again?
Wow!....Thank you....🎉
Awesome explanation and more detailed than the average person would appreciate, thank you.
I improved the noise level in my car by leaving the wife at home.
@@membershipmovement but does she have the remote TV channel changer?
Excellent advice 👍
HAHAHA
Hahahahahaha
Sorry bro stuffed up ,got the first part right then took the gf out instead.Result almost identical
I just picked up a 1985 vw golf. It sounds like a coffee can rolling down the road. Your video helped a bunch!! Thank you for all the hard work!
You worked your butt off in a thorough and methodical manner. Thank you, and I'm not even going to sound deaden my car. It was cool watching you master a challenge!
Great job! This reminds me of the very first car I did sound deadening on :)
I've learned a couple of things since how to make it easier/cheaper:
- The amount of butyl rubber is excessive here, you only need to cover 40-60% of the bigger flatter surfaces. Covering everything else typically only serves aesthetics.
- Use aluminum duct tape to seal butyl rubber edges for aesthetics and to prevent the butyl to squeezing out and sticking to whatever is there on a hot summer day. Vinyl seems to do great job covering the mess also!
- Thin foam doesn't help so much on the floor, I only had noticeable results using 6-10mm foam but that creates a lot of troubles when putting the interior back together. Factory carpet does some sound deadening as well, adding a thin layer of foam wouldn't change much.
- Factory deadening starts falling off after a couple of years, it's best to get rid of it if possible, some heat may help a bit.
- Don't push butyl rubber so hard, those squares on a foil side are there for a reason.
- Make sure it's warm enough when applying butyl rubber (high 70s and up), use heat gun otherwise, especially when doing doors/roof.
- Use heavier butyl rubber (like 150mil) on wheel arches and flat floor panels.
- Use some butyl rubber on the hood and try to squeeze into fender cavities and cover fender panels as well.
- Using foam on a ceiling doesn't help sound deadening as much but creates a strong heat barrier. This is great during warm season, not as good when it's below freezing since the layer of snow and ice you may have on the roof would never melt. Same applies to the hood panel.
- As far as efficiency goes, this would be my order: doors (including hatch/trunk), fenders, roof, firewall (very labor-intensive), hood, wheel arches, floor. Doing doors + fenders + hood is least effort and gives great results.
Well said. As a veteran installer, I'm always trying to get the younger generation to understand that more is not better. Sound requires science, and the brute-force approach is the antithesis of analysis.
Thankless work, to be sure, and there's no need to compound your misery.....
I haven't found any concrete good advice for wheel wheels. My truck has those carpet style liners so I was wondering if I where to sound deaden the wheel wells would I put material on the metal behind the liner or what? I have seen where some people put some deadening on the back of the plastic wheel liners that most vehicles use, but I'm not sure if that is an option.
I wonder if he covered the firewall too.
@@BSherrod Ever get an answer to that question?
😃
@@kevinyork4757 Not from this. I drive a ‘17 Sierra and did talk to one guy a few years ago that put some sound deadening on the metal in the wheel wells after putting all terrain tires on said that it helped a lot. It’s something I’m considering but the AT’s on my truck aren’t that loud.
Best sound deadening explanation and demo on TH-cam. Much appreciated!
Ive deadened more vehicles than almost anyone else i know and i can confirm - it makes a massive difference. Not just for insulation but it really does make an audible difference. And remember! Every 3db is is twice the volume meaning 150db is twice as loud as 147db.
I usually question the return of these type of work with only 1 or 2 db lowered. Knowing it now, it's worth the effort.
Every 10db is twice the perceived volume in general*
I’ve been playing the same game with my landcruiser 80 series for awhile. I used the same tin butyl, a slightly thicker closed cell foam, and a giant sheet 45x70” of mlv over the cargo floor that I had left over from soundproofing pipes in my house (which works btw). My vehicle, like your Honda, already had segments of the floor and wheel Wells coated with a butyl skin in certain areas from the factory. I did not apply a foam underlayment under the mlv sheet, but if this video was out i would have. That being said I believe it still benefited quite a bit. Following the vehicle manufacturers line of thinking, I didn’t completely cover surfaces, but rather have large pieces of butyl staggered on the inside quarter panels like spots on a cow. For me, welding rust holes shut, and covering unnecessary holes with butyl made the biggest difference. I can also recommend from experience, a sprayed asphalt/rubberized undercoating on the bottom of the body makes a big difference for sound. Particularly in the front and rear exterior wheel Wells
which undercoating spray product did you use?
@@trongducthinhnguyen8576 3M
Hands down this is the best most informative DIY vlog on sound deadening. I had watched at least a dozen videos before this and contemplated on whether to watch another and I am so glad I did ! So thorough with all the db tests at different intervals, exactly what I needed to help make a decision on sound deadening my 2nd Gen Scion xB. For me now I don't think I will bother with the cost and time to do this. So glad I came across this video. Thanks Repair Geek
I felt cheated wasting time watching all the other sponsored videos and started to believe it's just a scam. This convinced me it's doable and worth it.
Most comprehensive comparison I've EVER seen. Thank you for your time and effort. You helped me decide which route to go.
I would have thought doing the firewall would be the first place to start.
The thing is, youre not only making road noice lower. You also optimize the overall stereo sound in the car. So i would say its absolutely worth it. Great work.
My upgraded speakers did not produce bass at all until I sealed the doors, and overall treating the whole car was a massive improvement in ride quality at highway speeds. The only thing you'll hate after doing this is the dominance of wind noise, and that is sometimes impossible to reduce without drastic changes.
I mounted great stereo to my car, sound-deadened and sealed the doors. Now listening lower-pitched and less polyphonic (e.g. modern electronic) music is a bliss. But listening to rock or metal is still unpleasant and harmful to the ears. I discovered there's a lot of reverberation and that's what pushed me to sound deaden the car, mainly to reduce it.
That's about 50% decrease in loudness. dB reading are not linear. Good video man.
This is amazing! One major source of noise, especially at higher speeds, is the air passing the car.. check on your door seals, make sure they are not cracking, are elastic and have good surface contact. For some cars there are even comfort seals for extra noise reduction.
Exactly what I was thinking :)
Yeah this is what I normally notice on road trips. Wind noise whipping across my car. Been thinking of getting the sticky back foam tape to help the door seals.
Great work! Quick note - tires made a huge difference on my Ford Transit Connect. The stock Continentals were awfully loud (and ended up failing prematurely due to separating belts @ only 30k miles), and we got some Michelin Defenders. MUCH more quiet and comfortable. Also looking at installing some of this sound deadening material.
Thank you for the most comprehensive car sound deadening guide and results comparison video on TH-cam! I've watched nearly all the sound deadening guides on TH-cam and this one is lightyears ahead of them. I really appreciate the methodical comparisons you have shown us. Great video and kudos to you! 👍👍
It’s really nice to see someone like this guy out here doing damn good work. He’s highly detailed, competent, organized and honest. No BS, this guy is a rare human.
i hope you're wrong about him being rare. i'd like to think there are lots of people like him for the sake of all mankind but i totally get your point.
Something you should be aware of is that the road surface together with the tires makes a massive amount of difference. So whenever you were recording different speeds on the road, you needed to record on exactly the same piece of road to leave that variable out.
This is an astonishing video. One of the best I have ever come across on TH-cam. Big big congrants!
This is a fantastically documented account of sound deadening a car. The video is logically laid-out and the comparison between each layer makes it that much more thorough. Thank you very much.
People doing van conversions should see this. There's alot of speculation in that field.. This video was very methodical and we'll laid out. Thanks.
Great work, - well done! I know how much of a pain it is, as I've done quite a few of my cars over the years. Best result was with a Lotus Elise, but that car started with virtually zero sound deadening, so it made a dramatic difference. One thing I found during my various projects, is that removing the the wheel-well liners, spraying heavy-duty deadener into the bare wheel arches, then also coating the inside of the liners as well, made a dramatic difference to road/tyre noise. Just as much as doing the floor with butyl + foam.
In the lotus I also did HD thermal + laminated felt on the bulkhead (firewall). Overall, it made the little beast an acceptable daily drive and I could throw away the earplugs (literally).
Even the wife would then ride along...
Thanks for the video!
This is what I was thinking
As a person who have disassembled totally sound proof cars and noisy buckets, i've never seen something like that in the video that people install.
Quiet cars have two differences on the interior:
1) Thicker glass like BMW and Mercedes going with better weather seals on the doors
2) Triple as thick and heavy carpet with integrated foam pads compared to normal cars
When you want to absorb sound waves you need volume and density in sound absorbing insulation eg dense foam pads, rock wool etc, if you just make the sheet metal heavier and add mass with the things in the video what you do is just absorb the resonance of the metal so it usually tunes to lower frequencies and the best thing it does is get rid of rattling.
It might seem like it reduces noise but only because the chassis now tunes to a narrower frequency spectrum, and in fact those material are sound reflecting not sound ABSORBING, meaning any sound produced will be reflected till it fades out.
If you are looking to sound proof a car save your money and install some pads like in this video in vital areas like in transmission tunel, near the muffler, in the center of the door skin, some roof, the firewall etc, you'll see that most are already installed from the factory so next step is to install some new weather seals and grab a Mercedes ML carpet or similar from the scrap yard cut it up to pattern and install it under your stock one.
Great video. I'm currently falling down a sound dampening/deadening rabbit hole studying all of this and your video comparisons really helped. Thanks for your efforts!
Same!
Appreciate the work, man! Both the sound deadening and the making of the video. It'll definitely be an inspiration for many.
Very nice stuff. I just did a lot of this to my 2017 Civic... Honda really made it easy to get rid of a lot of the panels. Only noticed a bit of a drop in road noise but the frequency response from music just sounds so much better. And it makes your doors sound like vault doors too!
The door thud vs clang is always a good reason in itself 😂
Definitely agree with you, my motivation for deadening was audio too & it does make a decent difference.
I would like to do the roof on my Golf doors & floors done), but the agony of broken trim clips deters me!
Glad someone finally conducted this test! I didn't expect to find it, but thank you for sharing this helpful information.
Great content! Thinking about sound deadening my diesel pickup. After watching this video, my expectations have definitely changed. Thank you for all the work you've put into this content.
Excellent work! One thing I think you could emphasize more is the pitch of the noise...the "after" clips had a noticeably lower average pitch than the "before" clips. High frequencies are being reduced much more effectively than low frequencies, which makes sense given the energy involved in producing the sound. The subjective improvement is impressive! Your meter is probably weighted to account for that somewhat, but the audio tells the story more accurately than the meter in this case.
I agree the raw audio tells a bigger story than the meter. Like I said later in the video I had no way of showing the direction the sound was coming from either.
Great video. I’ve been contemplating doing something similar for my vehicle, but the work to received outcome ratio makes it hard to want to do. But I do have some experience in how sound and decibels work for radio waves, which long story short are just a negative inverse of sound the human ear can hear. But anyways a 3db chance is 2x the sound. So 73db is twice as loud as 70db. So to see a 3-5db chance appears as not much change, but in reality it can be quite a noticeable difference. Sorry to nerd out a bit but I enjoyed the video. Fantastic job!
That is a great point I wanted to get into how each DB becomes exponential growth in noise. The video I already 35 minutes and I was sure someone in the comments was going to be more knowledgeable about it than I was. No need to apologize for nerding out.
A +3db change is in fact about twice the acoustic intersity(power) but humans perceive a +10 db change to be twice as loud even though it's 10x the acoustic intensity(power). For example, if you had a 1000 watt amplifier hooked up to a speaker and you wanted to upgrade and make it twice as loud, you'd need a 10,000 watt amplifier. Sound is a tricky thing. Working on my own car stereo, I've found many odd characteristics of sound in a car. If I'm in an empty parking lot and turn my stereo up to an average listening level, If I roll down one window it will gain +3db. My measuring mic only goes up to 120 db so it could be a larger gain at higher volumes
I’ve just recently heard from an “Audioholics” show that a +4db change at subwoofer level frequencies (20hz-80hz) may sound twice as loud. But still most at most frequencies +10 db sounds twice as loud
3db is considered to be about the minimum change that the human ear can detect.
@@RepairGeek I fail to understand why people worry about how long their videos are. Considering the amount of time you're saving your viewers with accurate & hard won information, I think you should feel free to 'go long.' However, that's just my opinion. The sooner you're over, the sooner people can get back to their funny cat videos.
I've been on the fence about doing this project on my gti and this confirmed I would be happy to spend the time and money, thank you!
If the dB meter can be set to show readings from, say, 20Hz to 5KHz, I think you'll see a greater dB drop because it looks like you've succeeded in reducing noise in this range. And that's a good achievement because our ears are more sensitive in this range of frequencies. Cheers.
correct to say we don't perceive high frequencies as well, but we also don't perceive low frequencies as well either. next to no adult human alive is hearing fundamental pitches as low as 20hz
You should have definitely put sound deadening on top of the fender liner in the wheel wheel, it’s what a lot of manufacturers do and tires are one of the top 2 source of noise on cars even beating wind noise sometimes. You HAVE to do the wheel well if you want good results. It would be awesome if you did that and did a update video.
OOOOOH you are a smart guy ehhh? thank youuu :), my build wrecks this fool, put down D4s 200 Mil in winter, try rollin that
@@tedvanduzen8867 what the fuck are you talking about
Umm... _what_ , @@tedvanduzen8867?
@@assininecomment1630 putting deadener beneath the wheel well plastic is genius.
Ah haa! _Now_ you're making sense, @@tedvanduzen8867.
Your dedication to documenting the process and showing results is a rare sight to see.
You have my thumbs up.
Greetings from New Zealand. Huge respect to you for your professionalism in putting this amazing video together. It should be the blueprint for anybody considering undertaking such work. I’ve done some sound deadening work in my Nissan Sunny many years ago and while it greatly reduced drumming noise the reduction in road noise although noticeable was not great. I later went onto to spraying the wheel arches with a bitumenous type of thick spread which helped massively with tyre noise but eventually resulted in accelerated rusting where there were gaps as water off wet road surfaces would stay in these gaps for a very long time. That was in the early 90’s. Here in New Zealand the road sealing is done using quite coarse stone chips making road noise a real issue. I’ve driven an identical Nissan in Sydney, Australia where the road surfaces are of much finer chips and the the interior noise in the car I was driving was so much lower.
I did that only on the floor of my car and i can feel the difference before and after and then i just saw your video and i feel much appreciate to your hard work, thank you.
I've done a lot of sound deadening and the area that helps the most is the doors and wheel arch's. sound mostly comes from the wheel arches and the glass. Apply fabric to the arches and back with deadening or heavy foam. The floor makes the least difference. Firewall is also a good location. You can use expanda foam in sealed panels
you are so right,. i applied killmats to the wheel wells both inside and outside, and the tire noise is much reduced. In my opinion, the most annoying noise is tire noise, once you get rid of that, the wind noise is kinda ok.
@@walltiger6603 Do you have any information on how to apply to the wheel wells? I was wondering about that. There should be something you can apply to the wheel wells directly around the tires to change the way sound resounds.
@@kevinyork4757 :take the wheels off and apply the killmax directly to the wheel wells.
I'm not sure what car you are having. But different car has different characteristics.
I'm assuming cheaper cars have chassis or body structure that is more prone to transmit more sound to the undercarriage, and they may have torsion beam rear suspension with less absorbent suspension rubber mounts,... those types of car will transmit plenty of sound to the floor.
@@walltiger6603 Do you mean to take the plastic out of the wheel wells, or apply it to the plastic wheel wells? (inside or outside of plastic if plastic?) I actually like the idea of not pulling the carpet up..
It's worth mentioning that Decibels are an exponential measurement. A decrease in 5 DB from 80 to 75 is much more significant than from 45 to 40. I think the results were pretty good.
Edit: I see others have said this. Still a good video.
Wow! I can say that's a good enough difference! Congrats! I've been thinking in the past how can i do it, but now i have watched your video i got a lot of ideas. I enjoyed every minute of it. Thanks!
That was actually a fairly comprehensive example of how sound damping products can be utilized in a passenger car and the effect it can have. Good work.
Fantastic work! I'm really blown away by how much effort you put into this video and this little car. Hope the car lasts you a long time! Greetings from Germany
This channel is so good. I love the elements of Project Farm-type research and process of application. Thank you!
This is the best video I have seen on sound insulation!
I've debated on installing some in my current cars and SUV but i didn't know how much it will actually do. Plus now i know what the 3 layers are actually for. I don’t know if i will but its definitely nice to know actual real world results instead of just marketing numbers or what people think.
Good job with these. Really change my perspective on sound deadening on car positively.
That's a massive amount of work, thank you for documenting it! Like you said with the sources of the sound, if the car is over 5-7 years old you might see great results from replacing the strut mounts since that's the load bearing rubber isolation between the wheels and the chassis.
Great work! I also tried to sound proof my car and I searched so many disassembling videos of some expensive cars and realised that they also have deadener on the inside of the car doors + sound absorbing material such as felt just the thick same as the carpet (roll royce/ mercedes/ lexus/ bentley/volvo), they also put thick felt between the plastic cover wheel well and the chassis for absorbing road noise, next to the air pressure balancing vein in the trunk they covered by felt + some foam blocks, at some pillar covers they also add foam or felt.
I did make the soundproofing for my car including 4 doors, 4 wheel wells with some damping stuffs bought online with butyl, soft foam,thick felt. The doors when closing are much more better - feel more solid and there is only little tires sound echoing from the road concrete separator through the doors when driving on the high way than before.
I also recorded my car sound when driving on the harsh road and the result was the frequency from 50hz to 1500hz is the most annoying sounds. I felt that it came from the chassis vibrating not the sound from the tire because I drove very slowly. So I think that adding some damping material to the flat iron surface to absorb the vibrating will lead to result as you did to the floor.
This is exactly the video that I needed. I kept looking for tires that are quiet. Thanks for this video
Hats off to you for your patience!!
Nice work! I would also recommend insulating the A pillar trims with open cell foam sheets to absorb the wind noises, which Honda cars neglect. Also the door seals leave lots of redundant gaps when closed, again notorious in Honda cars. I would insert the door seals with silicone tubes, 0.15inch O.D should fit well, but expect to slam the door with the force needed on a European car for the first few weeks, lube with generous amount of silicone oil during insertion. With the doors firmly secured to the body while closed, you will notice a significant level of quietness with the intense work you’ve done to the floor previously. Let us know the outcome. Good luck!
How do you get into your a pillar
@@AgentOffice you would need to pull off the door seal and then pry open the A pillar trim with hands in the same way you did with the door panels.
@@Ray_Yang182 isn't there an airbag?
@@AgentOffice Pls take a look at the owners manual. If there is an airbag, I would suggest leaving it as is and focus on insulating the tailgate :)
@@AgentOffice u simply disconnect your batt before u pull it off to avoid deploying airbag however u want closed cell foam not OPEN
Also not anytime u remove a or b pillar there’s a special clip in there that in essence gets ruined u should always pre order new clips b4 hand they r a couple bucks usually square but 99% of ppl have no idea what they r doing thus why I don’t buy a used car from some fool who’s torn it apart knowing nothing (no offense to u personally)
Nicely done. You are definitely not exaggerating the effort that went into this production.
Thank you.
Just what I needed to see. Thanks young man.
It would have been great to see what the temperature differences in the car were before and after. I would be interested in knowing if it made a big difference.
Actually that could work 😮
Most temp difference would be coming in through the glass, so it wouldn't make that much of a difference. Its similar to a house, you could put 6" of insulation in the walls/floors/ceiling, but would not notice much a difference if you had single pane windows. If you want to lower the heat that transfers into the vehicle tint the windows.
Yah use a FLIR camera next round
Absolutely love that you took the time to measure the difference after each addition, thanks very much for your thorough process!
Thanks for the video, u got my respect for the amount of work and effort not only by diy and soundproofing your car but to show us the difference on the decibel for every layer u installed. Im driving a honda fit too and been always frustated by the road noise and always try to use a quite tire. Will be installing soundproof too. Thanks again
So much work put into this video! Thank you for such a detailed video.
I used to have an 07 CRV, and on the interstate the road noise was soooo loud. I can see this as a good "quality of life" upgrade - like you said, not dramatically mind blowing but enough to edge your comfort and conversations to where you aren't noticing the road noise in the foreground of your attention. Good work on this video, that's a lot.
Thanks for making this video, it was obviously a crazy amount of work. I had thoughts of doing this to my Nissan van (and it had literally no interior panels), but thinking about the amount of time and work caused me to procrastinate. Your video corroborated my thinking.
Thank you for all your videos, you are definitely teaching us and giving us courage to attempt jobs like this. I appreciate all the work you do.
If people weren't watching I wouldn't be making videos so, thank you.
Good job.... Very thorough approach to documenting the process with the before, during and after each step. Thanks!
I was invested the minute you explained all three pads. I know you did this to show how much road noise or general noise in the cabin but I’m sure with the proper speaker setup now it would be a dream to go for a ride with your favorite music.
When you knock down the DBs by 5, you have effectively knocked down the sound level by 50%! Thanks for your hard work
No. 10db would be 50 percent
Awesome video. Subscribed! Fellow DIY er here. I think one of the factors for the big difference in DB after the closed-cell foam application might have been the butyl rubber sealing off the holes in the doors. I have sound-deadened 3 vehicles, and I noticed a big difference on the two that I sealed off the door holes vs the one that I didn't.
Huge amount of work , thanks for going to all that trouble!
I like this video, you're very knowledgeable of the materials you use and how to install. Very strong presentation, not stumbling for words!
i used the exact same materials in my 2017 Subaru Outback Premium this summer and I got similar results. Conversation is much easier and the interior noise is hushed more than the meter can measure. Maybe it's the pitch of the noise that changed; it's hard to describe but it's very noticeable. This was the first time I had ever used mass loaded vinyl under the carpet. I didn't glue or tape it down because the thick carpet will hold it in place. And I agree that it would be helpful inside the doors but almost impossible to install. It's too heavy, too thick and wouldn't conform well to the irregular surface of the back side of the door panel.
I would like to eliminate more of the noise from the wheel wells and would like to hear from anyone who successfully used a rubberized spray exteriorly.
Kudos for a well done video. The best one I've seen on this subject.
Try sticking the butyl on the inside of the tires before mounting them.
Its possible, you have to use Velcro strips in the corners and maybe a couple in the middle. I believe open cell is better for sound proofing but it absorbs water so not to good for cars lol. And I have also sprayed the fender wells of a couple of my cars. I did the whole underbody for rust prevention and just for looks honestly when I'm down there. Definite sound improvement though. Still biggest change is fatmat after you put those 2 12s and a 600 watt amp to your door speakers lmfao.
@The MBOD yes it will help but don’t expect it to be same as the E class. Mercedes are built from the ground up to be silent.
@The MBOD Your Subaru will never be as quiet as a MB. The Mercedes was engineered to be quiet from the frame to the windshield. You can't duplicate that in a STI, but you can make it much quieter than it is by following this video. Remove the seats and the carpet, lay down butyl rubber, lay closed cell foam over that and then Mass loaded vinyl on the top. Replace the carpet and seats and you'll be amazed at the improvement. You can also add the butyl rubber and the CLF to the interior of the doors but not the MLV...it's too heavy to stay in place.
@@ctrlaltdebug too hard to balance, you'll get the same result from filling them with water.
I had a set of Bridgestone tyres from Japan (17") with foam on the inside, they were noticeably quiet compared to other tyres on the same wheels.
Love the video, very interesting
Wonderfully comprehensive video, and refreshingly realistic in the approach, method and results. Great work. Grateful that I stumbled across this video, and added a subscriber.
Wow man, kudos to you for the amount of work you did to show us all of this great info and testing. thank you.
Excellent video that is so educational. You did an incredible amount of work to show us all the installation steps and the final measured results. It is greatly appreciated. Thank you!!
I appreciate the comment. I threw everything I had at this video and out of all the videos I've done this is one of the ones I'm most proud of.
@@RepairGeek Your hard work really shows. The video editing is excellent and I know how much work that can be. Great job and thanks again!
I think you may have noticed a larger difference if you held the meter in the other hand. Perhaps you were getting a reading of window noise which would be unaffected by your work. A now central location may have given more insight.
Great video.
Thank you. For the amount of work, the result is fairly meager. It is good to know the limit of these sound products. I greatly respect your excellent effort. It has saved me and many others from spending a lot of time on an upgrade when the better answer is simply to buy a higher end vehicle.
Fantastic video. Love you showing the whole process!
This is a great video! Very informative and helpful!
I did a similar thing with ducting insulation and had similar (lower road noise) results. I didn't measure the noise level before or after, but I could hear the difference. To be clear, I only installed the insulation on the ceiling & doors - I did not remove any seats or carpet.
If I had the time, I definite would redo the entire interior with at least the insulation that I used or the products you used.
I think you did great putting so much in the car to lower road noise. However you missed a step for the wheel wells and firewall. For luxury vehicles the car companies will shoot in beta foam between the layers of metal in the wheel well, and firewall/dash area. Basically any area that you wont ever need access to should get filled with beta foam between the sheets/layers of metal.
This is how it should be done! Before and after with hard facts. Subscribed!
Lots of great information conveyed clearly and realistically. I love that the comments on these kinds of videos reflect the quality of the video itself.
Much appreciated!
This is amazing. I've been wanting a scientific incremental layer experiment for years! This is exactly what I've been looking for. You should also look into weather stripping and next time you replace your tires see how much of a DB drop new or higher end tires give.
Continental does the Bentley tires. They have an acoustic treatment on the inner side of the tread. Bentley also has 3+ mufflers. Now that's going the last mile!
one of the things that reduces road noise in tires are continuous ribs; choppy/blocky tires make more noise (think truck mud tires) so you'll tend to notice at least a center rib on many tires.
On the topic of tire noise, I got a set of Pirelli tires for my Mini that are incredibly quiet (I think they're the Cinturato P7). It's amazing how much difference it makes. Love the idea of going the next step and doing the sound-deadening too. I'm assuming this wasn't a sponsored video, but if not I think the company owes you a thank-you note. Your video answered all the questions I had about the process. Also, I'm guessing you'd agree that the noise quality was improved as well (i.e. the noise that remains isn't quite as harsh).
I seriously appreciate the time and effort that you put into this. Thanks for the informative content.