Hey guys! We just got back from THE GAY CRUISE! Looking forward to share that with all of you. 🥰 For this video, let us know if this type of matchmaking service exist where you live. Also, how do you feel about it? Excited to know what you all think.
I also live in an asian city where being gay is not widely accepted. But I won't even consider this service just because I don't wanna force myself to please the society at the expense of my happiness. Life is short ! No time to go through this awkward process / acting. Btw, look forward to your sharing with the trip of gay cruise. Sounds excited and hot !!
i hope there’s a part 2 of this where u interview a couple who has entered into this marriage for over 3 years. I want to know what are their arrangements n compromise to have a long lasting marriage of this kind.
A service like this is quite cool, it basically sounds like matchmaking for queerplatonic relationships. I think there are plenty of queer people in the US who are lonely and open to this sort of arrangement tbh. Straight or not, people are feeling burnt out from typical dating apps.
I know I am going to talk with my cultural bias and I am talking from my point of view, but I believe this is another response of the homophobic lens that most societies in asia tend to show. If marrying is so importnat, then same sex marriage should me legalize. You can bring two families together and still be a same sex couple. The "internalize" homophobia comes when the spectation it's not just getting married, is that you have a baby. Not adopt, have. I am aware that there is a cultural difference, but I still think that there's our old pal homophobia behind this societal presure. Dating and having relationships is hard, but so is a marriage. I see this as another way LGBTQ+phobia endures in societies.
I'm single and gay, and I would love to use a service like this. At this age (40s), finding a romantic partner who is also a good life partner and with whom there is mutual attraction would be like winning the lottery. I'd be perfectly pleased to build a family with a close friend. In my 20s and 30s I would have have felt a bit differently, I think, but after decades of not finding The One, I'm seeing life quite differently. I've always had unusually close bonds with friends anyway--it's just that none of my friends are into the idea of shacking up with friends, alas.
As a straight woman who just loves watching your videos, this is a very interesting topic to talk about. I think that in the recent years there have been more of a call for companionship... a bid for connection? In a world that has managed to be extremely connected, people are feeling lonelier than ever. Might be something about how everything is expected to happen instantly and nobody has the patience to nurture relationships like they used to. I could see this sort of service being attractive to a wider audience, especially to (oddly enough) younger people who feel a fatigue of having to keep playing the dating game. People aren't mean to be islands so whenever an opportunity appears to offer friendship/companionship without the pain of a heartbreak.../shrugs/ sounds very appealing 😭 Love your videos, thanks for chatting with us~
My thoughts exactly. Also I am not going to criticize this, because the older I get the more I am just like : "Give me a cat, someone that midly cares about me and a house with a backyard" 😂😂😂
Simply put: Japan is too rigid and fixated in its own norms while also being collectivist. The West is more liberal and focuses on individualism (less conforming to what the society/community tells you to do). I'm from SE Asia and I align more with "western values" and def. would not let myself succumb to societal pressures. It's unfair how straight people never get to experience this dilemma. Why should I have to?
Watching this from Spain, and I must admit I'm in shock that this kind of service exists. After watching the video, I understand it's purposse, and see how some societies push you to have a marriage and to fit in. A service like this that upfront tries to navigate this situation is great. But I think we are kind of ignoring the deep trouble that lies in those societies and expectations, and how are pushing for this. I know im biased and seeing this from my western perspective, but it feels terrible.
Movies on this theme: 1992 movie "Okoge" (Japan), and 1993 movie "The Wedding Banquet" (Taiwan/USA). There was also the movie "Hush!" (Japan) from 2001.
I was turned off by the video's title, but after hearing the breakdown... honestly? I'm here for it. In most non-western countries, conforming to societal standards and your family and community's expectations offers you so much stability, safety, resources, etc. than pushing against it. The fact that both parties utilizing this service are upfront with each other about their goals is much better than lying to someone who could really be into one party while the other just uses them and wastes their youth and life for their own selfish purposes. Not to say that this doesn't happen in straight relationships, but it'd be far more rampant in situations where one party is a gay man or lesbian. Now for the interesting part. Would this service be able to be a thing in western countries? Absolutely. There'd be a TON of pushback against, but it could 100% work. Despite western countries touting being inclusive and accepting of queer folk, heteronormativity still reigns supreme, and most people are more comfortable with straight relationships than same-sex ones. There is also more upward mobility in, and not to sound hoity-toity, but in more "established" and "reputable" careers and companies if you're married. It's not as extreme as it is in Japan, but you definitely feel it and see it. And honestly, who is anyone to chastise what anyone does with their lives? If two people want to enter a lavender marriage for whatever reason to appease their families, friends, coworkers, and bosses, who is anyone to come in and say, "No, you can't do that, I don't like it!"? Like, please. Obviously, the goal is to get to a point in society where queer people DON'T have to do this and can live their lives fully and peacefully without being ostracized from any sectors of public life, but it's going to take centuries upon centuries for that to be a thing. As an American, we've had same-sex marriage being legal for just a little over a decade and as you can see, it's already under attack by Republicans. If us queer people in an "open-minded" western country can't even make it past a decade of having same-sex marriage without being attacked, do you really think a conservative, reserved country like Japan would even entertain a same-sex couple for real? So yes, like Andrew, I would never use this service and queer Japanese should be fighting for more rights for themselves and to be properly acknowledged and accepted. But until Japan's sociopolitical climate changes drastically, I think this service is brilliant since it helps queer people live a more comfortable, easy life without being deceptive to a potential partner.
I have to disagree on being uncomfortable with same sex relationships. I feel more comfortable with 2 males in a relationship or marriage. I'm a woman and it gets rid of any threats I might feel from heretosexual males. I agree that such a service would be successful.
I think it would work in the west as long as the relationship isn't pressed by friends and family because of how marriage has its implications and expectations. Either that or your mental fortitudes must be high enough to know what you want and what you're getting. I mean, the alternative to these arranged marriages is "finding love", and just many people are reaching middle age without having accomplished that these days? Might as well appease your folks. Later on, I'd be more concerned about raising kids in that environment, and eventually revealing to them that hey, mom and dad paid $5k to meet up, and they're not the Disney couple they imagined they'd be.
It does make sense how Japan as a whole doesn't conflate marriage and sex together, and so these arrangements could be possible in the first place. They're roommates with extra steps, a recognized "unit" of sorts, an investment from a company's pov.
Do you know what the percentage was of people who signed up for this service because they wanted children? It sounded like social pressure to be in a marriage was the main reason for getting married. If a significant proportion of users don’t want children, then it is sad that a company like this is profiting off of the social pressure of getting married as an end in itself, rather than helping people deal with that social pressure in their lives. It seems worse to me that the users are not even getting married for financial reasons or visa reasons, but instead for a concept empty of anything other than so that family members and coworkers will stop bothering you or looking down on you. Just wanted to add that this was a great video!
I was just about to head of to bed but noticed your new video and I do have my priorities....Tokyo BTM or some much needed sleep...Tokyo BTM or some much needed sleep? Oh hell, it's not like i am a brain surgeon. Lack of sleep isn't going to kill me or anyone else. So i went with Tokyo BTM over sleep. Turns out it was a very entertaining choice. Andrew, I was fascinated how well you kept your composer and did not end up rolling on the floor laughing hysterically at Meng. I was! Yes, I am picking on you Meng. You did become a bit more self-aware near the end of the video so you do get some points for that but Andrew, how did you keep it all together and maintain some semblance of seriousness? Meng marrying a woman? This was an early April Fools joke or something like that right? I don't think there is any way any of us are that foolish though that we would fall for that. Okay, I am done with my picking on Meng session.
I think it’s cool a service like this exists, and it’s an interesting idea, but have similar opinion as Andrew. But also I’m not sure I even feel the need to get married on paper when I meet a man I want to spend my life with
Mark McLelland is also one of my favorite writers when it comes to Sexuality in Japan! I also recommend the book Queer Voices from Japan, which is a collection of essays written by Japanese queer people, edited and compiled by Mark McLelland and other researchers. That book has many interesting essays written by Japanese lesbians.
I doubt that there would be a huge pool of people here in the west who would participate in this. The concept of romantic love is too ingrained into our psyches. Though I can see the benefits. Another riveting video! Thank you!
I agree. There are also fewer incentives for straight women because the pressure to give up your work and focus on the home after marriage is not as prevalent here.
Western perspective here: in my 40s, lots of dating, nothing that stuck longer than a few years. I've been wanting something like this for ten years, and you're right--it's not a popular idea here, unfortunately. A handful of odd ducks like me exist though. For me it's not about being closeted--I couldn't if I tried, but more about having "family." In my 20s there was all the song and dance about "chosen family" but the thing is, unless you're married or wildly lucky, "chosen family" still pairs up and you're alone on holidays, when planning for the future, etc.
But then something called love does exist and when one of the spouse falls in love with another person ( just consider that after this marriage and a child artificial insemination a child then woman falls in love with a straight man ) the dister will begin because even if the gay people don't value their own love or heart straight people would) then the true illusion of these will fall off tragedy for the kids
I am sometimes closeted here in America and thus get to hear some interesting things. Most of all gay societal pressures in the USA still does exist in many areas and thus closeted gays who I always think about are not willing to sacrafice everything in order to just be who they are. I also know that in the Military it was not uncommon for solders, Marines, etc to be in the closet but their wives were very well aware that their husbands were gay and that they usually had a boyfriend in a long term relationship. With that said there would probably be some use for this service here in America especially in a country with 350 million people. But make no mistake that here in America nowadays if two gay guys want to be legally married, then they can do that but only since 2016. I would refer to the movie the Bird Cage on all of this. I don't want kids and being in my mid 50s I bet that I do not fit that bill for Meng but I do wish him the best of luck and strongly encourage him to follow his passion and his heart.
I was surprised recently to see online that even young Japanese woman are sanguine about their husbands having sex with others. Clearly that attitude makes this service possible. Have you ever done a video discussing gay prostitution or interviewed anyone who works in this type of employment. i understand that anything other than M-F penetrative sex is legal in Japan.
I recently discovered two instagram accounts of a gay couple in Japan raising a child together. Shiba-dads and koji-dad. I am unsure if they have a TH-cam but I wonder how they were able to achieve that, they must have encountered so many bureaucracy red tapes
As always this is an informative and fun video. You're both looking great, so the cruise must have really agreed with you!! We'll all stay tuned as to what happens, and to see if you do decide to become "deceptive husbands"!
I'm a bi trans man but lean more gay and love your guys channel lived in Japan for 6 years and intend to come back to live long term. My opinion is that Japanese people once they hit 30 want to marry pretty much anyone just to get married I've seen that in colleagues there's a lot of social pressure to be married by 30 so I can see how a straight girl gay guy marriage could work. They have the stability of being together and partnership but sexual freedom seperate. And I think straight women and gay men would be more aligned in terms of mutual interests and could accompany each other running errands etc. I've noticed a fear of commitment in gay men and gay relationships as well like a fundamental male emotional blockage and the non conventional life path of gay men they don't necessarily need to get married have a family etc so I've noticed a lot of older gay men are just single bachelor's that focus on their careers.
FASCINATING. This sort of marriage caused a lot of heartache in the past, often women not knowing what's going on, cause their gay husbands have not told them. If entered knowingly on both sides, I could see it working 🤔 ETA I want a Totoro like that ❤
No my friend even knowingly it's great disaster just imagine what will happen if the straight women falls in love with the person but they can't move on because they are legally married and have kids with somebody so it will like breaking a family which only existed in illusions for the kida
These marriage still happen because of the Japanese work system! (you talk about it in the video). But this is heavily important in the decision making process for gay men to decide to get married. If same-sex marriage did exist in Japan it would change this story completely! Maybe not in the first few years of the same-sex marriage system, but on the long run, those arranged marriage would disappear. Gay people would not feel the need to hide anymore. What is mind-blowing to me is that all the latest data show that the Japanese population is now strongly supporting same-sex marriage (above 60%), but it is still the government that refuses to move forward on this (older heteronormative conservative boomers!!!). And, of course, the price for the "service" to get married in those fake marriages is outrageous!!! They take advantage of people who feel forced to go along with this system (family pressure, work pressure, social pressure, etc.)... This is literally predation on people who feel high anxiety to meet others expectations! I do not think it could exist in the West, but there are still many people who do feel they have to get engaged in a straight marriage for social reasons (especially Religion believes of the family!) and who still go to gay cruising places. Even among the younger generation! I sure still see many guys defining themselves as "straight" (with a wife or an official girlfriend) in those places (at least in Europe). Also, same-sex couple can have children! More and more same-sex couple actually have children, either from adoption, or with a partner who agrees to have a child with them!
I don't think it'll disappear entirely - I think there's definitely a market for it among asexual and non-sexual people, or gay people who are in the closet, or whatever. Maybe introducing same-sex marriage will just increase the combinations you get, such as asexual men marrying gay men, or non-sexual women marrying bisexual women - who knows? I think, so long as there are people who see marriage as separate from romance/sex (which there likely always will be, even if there's less emphasis on marriage), there'll be people who'll find this to be an appealing idea. I think it's also why I appreciate the idea of Civil Partnerships so much, too - it's legal recognition of a couple, but there's nothing in the vows that says you have to be monogamous to your civil partner. There are people who want that, not just because the society they're in is homophobic, you know?
I think set-ups like this are a common plot point in Sayaka Murata's books! One short story has an asexual woman (who had a child via artificial insemination) living with her best friend, a heterosexual woman, as life partners; another has a non-sexual couple trying to figure out how best to have a child; and the main couple in her (incredibly messed-up but really well-written) novel "Earthlings" are also an asexual/non-sexual match. I find it really interesting that it appears to be something that's happening more and more (or if not, that people are talking about it more), because it indicates to me that "traditional" heterosexual marriages just aren't working for people anymore. In the absence of gay marriages, civil partnerships, and other ways of legally recognising "non-traditional" families (and few ways of living an independent adult life outside of marriage), people are making do with what they have, it seems. I also just like hearing more talk about mixed-orientation relationships/marriages! I'm bi, but my beloved wife is asexual, so even though we're very romantically compatible, I feel I understand these "friendship marriages" as a result.
In Germany there was/is the idea to establish the institution of a ‘companionship of responsibility’ which is supposed to fill exactly this gap between marriage and just the recognition to take responsibility not necessarily in a sexual way with another person regardless of their gender or sex. Sadly this idea lies in some government drawer and isn’t got to be written into law soon.
I think this service is great for the cultures of some Asian countries where marriage is between two families; however, in the West it probably isn't needed for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
Then moving forward when one of the person meets the person they fall in love with then there will be the real breaking of this delusional house ( tragic for the kids)
I’m always in love with your closing music by Ikson! Thx for always bringing up some very interesting content 💙 btw, I def think here in Italy TONS of gay/lesbian people who don’t come out they just get married to someone they don’t actually love or wanna have sex with, with the other partner not being aware of it 😢 if the Japanese thing would work here? Maybe yes, but still heteronormativity is a major issue so people wouldn’t come out of the closet and would just keep getting married and faking it all imo
Many of my Japanese Gays married with women. Most of those women(wife) accepted about her husband’s sexuality. Husbands go out & have fun with other guys. Also wives can go out to have fun with other guys too.
Very interesting topic guys. When do you two go into this type of business & start conducting the interviews? 🤑I've seen first hand from the male side a number of gay asian guys marry due to the immense family/society pressure, then going on to usually have one child. Maybe non-Japanese asian under most pressure. Conception naturally (but these days could as easily be artificially), separate bedrooms, active gay sex life discretely outside the home. I would love to know more about this arrangement from the female side. I think we all understand the effects of loneliness, so I can see that there can be benefits in these arrangements. I'm saying this from the position of someone who doesn't need to endure this situation. I've also had the opportunity to observe an arranged straight couple in the 30's in countryside Japan, after 3 years that relationship is ongoing (no murder or poisoning yet).
My friend marriage needs a strong base of love especially if you have a child no matter the genders of the people involved. The younger generation of Japan will not only have to endure that but also many will see loneliness in this.
In NYC area it's not common but I've heard of platonic spouses. There was a NYT article on it a few years ago... just search for title "From Best Friends to Platonic Spouses."
I wish this existed but to meet gay men. Matchmaking is not weird to me (many straight people around me have this option) and dating apps are too much pressure I just want someone to find me someone cute and warn them ahead of time I'm a nerd 😂. Not sure why youtube put this in my rec's but what a cute vid. Greetings from Ohio!
Honestly that was very interesting to see as an Italian queer person, as my culture is very distant both from American/central-western European and Japanese culture. I do think that nowadays most Italians (unless people living in southern rural areas, where pressure about having a traditional marriage, children, etc is still very strong) would not use this service, however at the time when I started questioning my sexuality (late 00s/early 10s) or earlier it would have probably been very popular, as the views about marriage were very similar to those of modern-day Japan
As an ace cisgender woman, I can genuinely see the appeal of a friendship marriage, in fact I see it favouring ace nor non sexual women far more than gay men. Sharing cost of living, household chores, having another person at home helps with companionship without having to worry about the other person wishing to take things in sexual direction. I am very fortunate to have found a romantic partner of 24 years, which some could interpret as a friendship marriage, but if I hadn’t been so lucky I would consider signing up for this. To be clear, I hate that this seems like an option to pressure gay/bi/pan men into a traditional marriage role to fit in with societal expectations, but I can see why 94% of the women signing up are Ace and non-sexual 😊
Sounds to me like "lavender marriage" but with extra steps. However, I don't think those extra steps are necessarily bad or anything, since you're technically making a contract and marrying a stranger, so it's good to have all those extra steps to make sure you don't get scammed or something by your future spouse (as opposed to "lavender marriages" where both parties are usually acquaintanced with each other in some way before marriage). This sort of "friendship marriages" seem to be not as unheard of as they used to be in the West, but they're usually performed between people who already know each other regardless of sexualities and who might use benefits that come with marriage or who don't want a spouse but they want kids and so on. This type of marriages are also becoming more of a thing mostly among ace/aro people too rather than gay people since more countries have been legalizing same-sex marriages over the years and thus gay people can marry their actual partner and have the same (or almost the same) rights as a straight couple now. There's also a lot less pressure in society to get married, have kids and etc nowadays in a lot of Western countries, so I don't think this service itself would be too successful, however the "friendship marriages" themselves could definitely become a thing, especially among the ace/aro communities (and gay/queer communities too in places that aren't as open towards them).
In the USA there is extreme isolation. It's incredibly difficult to make platonic friends let alone a romantic partner. A spouse has the added pressure of being everything to their partner. Best (sometimes only) friend, therapist, financial partner, sex partner, child care, house keeper, and maintenance person respectively. I think it's probably why divorce is so high.
Great episode! Really opened my eyes to the reasons why someone would use this service. I totally understand for reasons of procreation/citizenship but kinda feel bad for people who fall outside of that. I can't help but feel that would be acting on heteronormative assimilationist values. I could see this being a thing that could work internationally - especially in religous natalist communities. Thanks for your work in making these episodes fellas, you're awesome 💖💖💖💖
Before learning more about Queer history in the US and Asia, I would have been repulsed by this information but more and more I understand even though I wouldn't do it. Also I love that the personality quiz throws lowkey shade. In terms of the USA, this was a big thing from the 1930s-1960s. Prior to the rise of gay liberation and feminism going "mainstream" in the 70s, Queer organizations like the Mattachine Society endorsed a similar approach to being accepted into American society by having queer men and women marry each other and having children to appear like the stereotypical "White Picket Fence/American Dream Family" and develop loving same sex relationships in the closet. Although it sounds like everything is out in the open in these friendship marriages.
In the West, there is such a thing as a "Match Maker". This is quite a professional service. Also, there are people within the LGBTQ community that participate in organised straight relationships for various reasons. Both are not new to the west.
I think it's a pretty cool service taking into account the culture where it exists, I'm bisexual and I have a male partner, but I sometimes wonder how my life would be if I was lesbian. In my country it would be pretty harsh but at least same sex marriage is recognized in most of the country (but not all). If I was born lesbian and in a country in Asia I would have probably used this service.
I am grateful that I am living in a culture that my marital status has minimal repercussion on my professional and personal life. To which his/her/their own really…
> maybe because i grew up in (USA) western culture i find my alignment entirely with Andrew on this topic. i understand this service may have appeal to some folks. i never wanted to 'get married' (even if i were straignt) - i had an LTR w my -ex, and never wanted to get married. i eschew any societal pressures for marriage or children. one issue that you guys did not discuss re this service, given a gay guy in a friendship marriage w a straight women (children or not) - what happens if he is out at the bars or whatever and meets a guy finally that he likes and wants to begin a relationship with that guy? the same for the woman - what if she falls for a co-worker and wants to date that man? one thing you noted that i find tragically interesting was the point re women of independent means who enter a relationship w straight man - then end up falling back into traditional enslavement of the female role of cooking, cleaning & child-rearing only.
You guys are awesome. Binge watched so many episodes. Meng - if you were a top, you’d be sooooo perfect! Love your smile; goals; vibe & soooo hot! Fan from Australia 😇
WOWza! While I do understand that this guidance option is probably more relevant in modern Asian cultures that still maintain societal pressures to conform to traditional stereotypes, that pressure still exists worldwide with degrees of severity. Two generations ago in the west, these domestic arrangements were not uncommon due to anti-gay laws which essentially forced many into 'marriages of connivence' as a previous poster commented. I hope that the more gender-fluid we become, theses needs will be eliminated in society. Cheers Guys. You never cease to occasionally surprise me with your content.
I see where there might be a need for this in many parts of Asia. A lot of the countries are mono-ethnic and have certain cultural norms that are strictly enforced. Anyone from the New World would find this hard to understand. We are a melting pot and our cultures are many. Besides, in places like Japan, the needs of the many are more important, in most Western cultures we have a strong individualist streak. We celebrate the individual person more. The bad thing about gays caving in to this family and societal pressure is that, if you do that, nothing will ever change. You think it was easy for us baby boomers to come out in the seventies and eighties? Trust me, I grew up in a blue collar suburb of Detroit and it wasn't easy. But, without that, we wouldn't have SSM and gay rights now.
Lavender marriages in 2024? 😨This is definitely one of the things ''the west' does better, being far more chill around single people not wanting to get married and people increasingly marrying for love.
In some cultures and laws you have to consumate a marriage. I.e. if someone challenges the couple they could lose any benefits they get for being married. Not sure if this still applies though.
As someone who got married to hide being gay and meet society norms I would never recommend this. I was driven to thoughts of suicide living like that. I am glad at 27 I was able to tell my wife and family and divorce. Gay people can have kids and I have so many friends that are gay and have kids. I have a Chinese friend who was going to do the fake marriage. He was having twins with his husband but for family in china they were going to do fake marriage before the kids were born. I told him no way you will hate yourself for it. How can you expect your kids to be proud of you as a gay person if you are to ashamed to be honest with the world? He didn’t do it and now it put with everyone and the twins are a years old. They are wonderful kids and he can hold his head high. All the money you are going to spend on the fake marriage and later divorce is such a waste.
I think as an American lesbian I could marry a gay guy just for the benefits and having a male figure for my future children but they would def have to have their own room and even own house
People marry their friends. They find themselves getting older and think "why not marry my best friend". There is a video or documentary, I don't remember which one, about it.
Thinking about why lesbians make up such a small number of the women using the service - I wonder if it has anything to do with stereotypes about lesbians in Japan? I'm obviously not Japanese and am fine with being corrected, but from what I've read, as a sapphic individual who researched living in Japan, the stereotype is that lesbians eventually "grow out of it", or that it's a phase. I wonder if a lot of lesbian women feel pressured to marry men through more traditional omiai services, because they're just expected to closet themselves as adults?
I am curious to what the statistics are on those marriages producing children within them? And how would it be if the woman goes out and gets pregnant by another man? Is the husband expected to be responsible for the child? So many questions!!
Andrew and Meng, when I was in the Closet, I hated myself and so I tried desperately to my best to be Straight and I tried to "like" girls. I was LYING like a bastard to myself! I was forcing all my feelings. It was horrible. 😲😮💨 I finally Came Out at 36. I'm Gay to stay, honey! Happy Year of the Dragon 🐉 from a Dragon 🐲🧧. Meng, here is some lettuce🥬 to feed your dragon 💵💴. 🇺🇸🏳️🌈🤝🇨🇦🇨🇳🏳️🌈
First, dont put yourself down by saying you are not normal and listening to that nonsense about normal relationship. But regarding the topic, I am Canadien and straight female but I think Andrew is right about culture. There is not much pressure on getting married and have kids here in general and mariage is more like a love thing. Although at 46 I went back into the dating scene and I noticed LOTS of straight men stating non ethical monogamy or polyamorous ( my ahe group was 35 to 50ish). Also in my province of origin (Québec), couples are more into common-law relationships then getting married anyway. Where I currently live in MB it is more conventional I believe. Would it work in Western countries? Maybe. It would be a niche market for sure. Matchmaking is not really a big thing here either, people are mostly on their own on apps and stuff. But the pressure of mariage and having kids is not strong in certain part of the world. What makes me weird is the children part and comment about having children the natural way, you are forcing two individual not attracted to each others to have sex in order to have kids. I dont know how prevalent IVF is in Japan, but I dont need a husband to have a kid either. So in the end, it is highly cultural since mariages and children is a big deal in Japan, LGBTQ is still taboo and gay mariages are not allowed. The views of a Japanese normal couple and life of them is very different fm Western views so. If this services is offered in Canada's I could see LGBTQ + arguments that they have fought so hard for legal mariage and rights that is seems like a step back of 80 years. But people are free to do what they please in the end. Asexual people, it is hard for them sometime to find a partner that understand it and accept it. As for non sexual, what is it? Women who are not sexually active?
I'm a big fan! Loving the videos. Not sure I like the stereotypes promoted by the GBFF trope. I had a lot of female friends trying to mold our friendships to align with them... It felt weird and forced.
I feel the same way as Meng, better doing an honest arrangement with a funny girlfriend and get companionship in your life, specially if you both like kids and always wanted kids. It’s just being practical, and you won’t lose much if you are not a guy who is into the gay scene . Sex and looks are too overrated on the gay “community”, that’s why the chances of getting a lifetime partner are minimal.
Being gay is much much more than just being active on the gay and just imagine how much you would make the women miss by the time she did those friendship things with you she could atleast meet a person who would truly love her in sexual and romantic way another thing just imagine what a disaster it will be for your kids if your so called wife really falls in love with some man as she should she would have to either sacrifice her love or her kids why make all these situation in the first place
I understand the rationale laid out in the video but, frankly, I think that this kind of approach to convenient life is a dead end. There are more dimensions to being gay than just sex: it's also living together, having a future together, planning together, etc. When you are married to somebody else, you can only have 5-minute-long-sinning together. So, I would never use such a service. I came out, I showed the middle finger to the bigots, and carved my space in the life, and going back to Narnia is just an alien concept to me.
People get married for many reasons. Personally though I don't see myself subscribing to the idea of a marriage for convenience. If the society you are in pressures you to do something that is opposed to your values or contrary to who you really are, then by any means you have to move somewhere else, you are not a tree.
If I was still in Korea, I would have done that. Iv always wanted a family and to get married but its hard to do that when the gay community doesnt like this.
My friend marriage requires love not friendship. Just imagine you are in reality would be signing up for a disaster because just imagine after having a child ( through artificial insemination) the wife meets a person they really love. nad then still they will have to either stay with you for the kids or kids will be further traumatized as they might already be traumatized from the fact that the base of family which is love between the gaurdians doesn't exist ( no matter the genders of the gaurdians kids always want that base to exist).
@annjen8405 many ppl in Asian countries do not marry for love. For many its a contract or going to wedding matcher. Even though iv been out of Korea since 2016, I bet you there are still many who do the arrange by friend, family or company. Not saying there are no love marriages. But Asians in Asia view love differently than westerners.
@@kp-gbuniqueinterest I am an Asian And let me tell you most familial traumas in our families are because loveless marriage happen .but that's not the case anymore and many throughout the history have always fought for their loves and currently many marry or remain in relationships only for love because we all know the traumas which a loveless marriage can have leaving few who are forced into these ( not talking for Islamic countries ). We all are human and we know what love is . It's not that we feel love differently than Westerners it's just that many were coered into things just thinking how the society will react that habit had been ingrained into us that's why many people even if they want to divorce they can't because many times it's a taboo. Many hold inside them a burning bright hatred towards themselves frustration towards society and family etc which we slowly and gradually comes out and is hand over but that chain breaks when we break out of the chains of the society and now many of us are free but more people need to become free.
@@kp-gbuniqueinterest I am an Asian You are true thinking that we Asian view love differently we believe in loyalty( for us loyalty defines love) most of us and unlike what's happening in Japan open relationships are a taboo even among gay couples and we are extremely possessive of our beloveds . Friendships are valued for sure but we don't do things like marrying your friends that's disgusting🤢🤮. It's not that we don't fall in love it's that many of as fall in love but the mentality to obey the society is ingrained in us( many Asians like you also have that mentality)so much that we keep the person in our heart and act like we love the other person with whom we might be forced into marriage ( thus we destroy all their chances and ours also) with all these anger hatred and frustration many us had become abusive .Now many have started marrying for love and now it's better. Religion is another influencing factor which forces every thing now people are fighting against it also.
@@kp-gbuniqueinterest those loveless marriages are never a success ( from outside they look good but from inside they are abusive) you don't know half of things which happens in Asia . Here nowadays parents and friends introduce people and they get to know each other if they like each other then only marriages happen or else they won't parents don't coerce.
I Don't Wanna Comment Or Criticise, But ...... When You Decide To Bring Your Child Via This Kinda Background? Actually This Is A Second Video I Watched About This Topic Today, So In Future This Will Be Trending.
I dont think anyone really knows if this would work in North America or not. Someone needs to open such a business in New York or elsewhere called "Will and Grace Matchmaking." 😊
You are disgusting. Marriage always needs a strong base of love atleast think about the kids before getting involved in a love less marriage kids always need that base of true love in family ( no matter straight couple, gay couple, lesbian couple) . Just imagine what if the other person really falls in love with someone then they will have to live a miserable life with you for the kids or the already traumatized kids will be more traumantized.
I'm not sure... I think that was only on TV because the networks weren't allowed (or didn't allow themselves) to show any indication that their husband and wife actually were sexual beings.
![[TH]FFWS SEA 2024 Fall - Knockout Stage Day 5](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/N2tl9xkQyyU/mqdefault.jpg)
I think a better translation is "marriage of convenience" or specifically for gay is "lavender marriage"
Hey guys! We just got back from THE GAY CRUISE! Looking forward to share that with all of you. 🥰
For this video, let us know if this type of matchmaking service exist where you live. Also, how do you feel about it? Excited to know what you all think.
GAY CRUISE? OOOOH I WANT TO KNOW MORE
Can’t wait to see that vid 😼😂
I also live in an asian city where being gay is not widely accepted. But I won't even consider this service just because I don't wanna force myself to please the society at the expense of my happiness. Life is short ! No time to go through this awkward process / acting. Btw, look forward to your sharing with the trip of gay cruise. Sounds excited and hot !!
i hope there’s a part 2 of this where u interview a couple who has entered into this marriage for over 3 years. I want to know what are their arrangements n compromise to have a long lasting marriage of this kind.
You seem interested. But hey maybe it'll work for you ... or maybe not. 😉
I second this!!
A service like this is quite cool, it basically sounds like matchmaking for queerplatonic relationships. I think there are plenty of queer people in the US who are lonely and open to this sort of arrangement tbh. Straight or not, people are feeling burnt out from typical dating apps.
Especially if this arrangement will involve an open/non-monogamous relationship/marriage!
I know I am going to talk with my cultural bias and I am talking from my point of view, but I believe this is another response of the homophobic lens that most societies in asia tend to show. If marrying is so importnat, then same sex marriage should me legalize. You can bring two families together and still be a same sex couple. The "internalize" homophobia comes when the spectation it's not just getting married, is that you have a baby. Not adopt, have. I am aware that there is a cultural difference, but I still think that there's our old pal homophobia behind this societal presure. Dating and having relationships is hard, but so is a marriage. I see this as another way LGBTQ+phobia endures in societies.
Well said
Agreed, it sounds like a way to navigate narrow, cishet-centric cultural expectations and legislation (i.e. gay marriage is still not legal in Japan).
I'm single and gay, and I would love to use a service like this. At this age (40s), finding a romantic partner who is also a good life partner and with whom there is mutual attraction would be like winning the lottery. I'd be perfectly pleased to build a family with a close friend. In my 20s and 30s I would have have felt a bit differently, I think, but after decades of not finding The One, I'm seeing life quite differently. I've always had unusually close bonds with friends anyway--it's just that none of my friends are into the idea of shacking up with friends, alas.
As a straight woman who just loves watching your videos, this is a very interesting topic to talk about. I think that in the recent years there have been more of a call for companionship... a bid for connection? In a world that has managed to be extremely connected, people are feeling lonelier than ever. Might be something about how everything is expected to happen instantly and nobody has the patience to nurture relationships like they used to. I could see this sort of service being attractive to a wider audience, especially to (oddly enough) younger people who feel a fatigue of having to keep playing the dating game. People aren't mean to be islands so whenever an opportunity appears to offer friendship/companionship without the pain of a heartbreak.../shrugs/ sounds very appealing 😭
Love your videos, thanks for chatting with us~
So glad to hear your thoughts ♥️ thank you
I mean who hasn't told their (female) best friend if we are still single by XX let's just get married. This just makes sense!
Haha, I am definitely guilty
My thoughts exactly. Also I am not going to criticize this, because the older I get the more I am just like : "Give me a cat, someone that midly cares about me and a house with a backyard" 😂😂😂
4:39 Technically, if you’re ace, you’re queer. So, there are many queer women (lesbians and asexuals) enrolled in this program.
Simply put: Japan is too rigid and fixated in its own norms while also being collectivist. The West is more liberal and focuses on individualism (less conforming to what the society/community tells you to do). I'm from SE Asia and I align more with "western values" and def. would not let myself succumb to societal pressures. It's unfair how straight people never get to experience this dilemma. Why should I have to?
Watching this from Spain, and I must admit I'm in shock that this kind of service exists. After watching the video, I understand it's purposse, and see how some societies push you to have a marriage and to fit in. A service like this that upfront tries to navigate this situation is great. But I think we are kind of ignoring the deep trouble that lies in those societies and expectations, and how are pushing for this.
I know im biased and seeing this from my western perspective, but it feels terrible.
Movies on this theme: 1992 movie "Okoge" (Japan), and 1993 movie "The Wedding Banquet" (Taiwan/USA). There was also the movie "Hush!" (Japan) from 2001.
I was turned off by the video's title, but after hearing the breakdown... honestly? I'm here for it. In most non-western countries, conforming to societal standards and your family and community's expectations offers you so much stability, safety, resources, etc. than pushing against it. The fact that both parties utilizing this service are upfront with each other about their goals is much better than lying to someone who could really be into one party while the other just uses them and wastes their youth and life for their own selfish purposes. Not to say that this doesn't happen in straight relationships, but it'd be far more rampant in situations where one party is a gay man or lesbian.
Now for the interesting part. Would this service be able to be a thing in western countries? Absolutely. There'd be a TON of pushback against, but it could 100% work. Despite western countries touting being inclusive and accepting of queer folk, heteronormativity still reigns supreme, and most people are more comfortable with straight relationships than same-sex ones. There is also more upward mobility in, and not to sound hoity-toity, but in more "established" and "reputable" careers and companies if you're married. It's not as extreme as it is in Japan, but you definitely feel it and see it.
And honestly, who is anyone to chastise what anyone does with their lives? If two people want to enter a lavender marriage for whatever reason to appease their families, friends, coworkers, and bosses, who is anyone to come in and say, "No, you can't do that, I don't like it!"? Like, please. Obviously, the goal is to get to a point in society where queer people DON'T have to do this and can live their lives fully and peacefully without being ostracized from any sectors of public life, but it's going to take centuries upon centuries for that to be a thing. As an American, we've had same-sex marriage being legal for just a little over a decade and as you can see, it's already under attack by Republicans. If us queer people in an "open-minded" western country can't even make it past a decade of having same-sex marriage without being attacked, do you really think a conservative, reserved country like Japan would even entertain a same-sex couple for real?
So yes, like Andrew, I would never use this service and queer Japanese should be fighting for more rights for themselves and to be properly acknowledged and accepted. But until Japan's sociopolitical climate changes drastically, I think this service is brilliant since it helps queer people live a more comfortable, easy life without being deceptive to a potential partner.
I have to disagree on being uncomfortable with same sex relationships. I feel more comfortable with 2 males in a relationship or marriage. I'm a woman and it gets rid of any threats I might feel from heretosexual males. I agree that such a service would be successful.
I think it would work in the west as long as the relationship isn't pressed by friends and family because of how marriage has its implications and expectations. Either that or your mental fortitudes must be high enough to know what you want and what you're getting.
I mean, the alternative to these arranged marriages is "finding love", and just many people are reaching middle age without having accomplished that these days? Might as well appease your folks.
Later on, I'd be more concerned about raising kids in that environment, and eventually revealing to them that hey, mom and dad paid $5k to meet up, and they're not the Disney couple they imagined they'd be.
As always you guys have put out great content and I really enjoyed the topic for today. Can’t wait for next video ❤
Thanks for always leaving a sweet message
It does make sense how Japan as a whole doesn't conflate marriage and sex together, and so these arrangements could be possible in the first place.
They're roommates with extra steps, a recognized "unit" of sorts, an investment from a company's pov.
I agree! And why not? At the end of the day, we choose what makes us comfortable.
16:19 That’s hilarious. Not the diagnostic test being sassy
Thanks guys! Just wanted to shout you both a drink for my bday Feb 28th. You've both got a long way to go before you hit 45
Awwww thank you so much and happy birthday 🎈🎂 cheers 🥂
I think it sounds great for Japanese women who don’t want to be stuck in the housewife role!!
Do you know what the percentage was of people who signed up for this service because they wanted children? It sounded like social pressure to be in a marriage was the main reason for getting married. If a significant proportion of users don’t want children, then it is sad that a company like this is profiting off of the social pressure of getting married as an end in itself, rather than helping people deal with that social pressure in their lives. It seems worse to me that the users are not even getting married for financial reasons or visa reasons, but instead for a concept empty of anything other than so that family members and coworkers will stop bothering you or looking down on you.
Just wanted to add that this was a great video!
Exactly
I was just about to head of to bed but noticed your new video and I do have my priorities....Tokyo BTM or some much needed sleep...Tokyo BTM or some much needed sleep? Oh hell, it's not like i am a brain surgeon. Lack of sleep isn't going to kill me or anyone else. So i went with Tokyo BTM over sleep. Turns out it was a very entertaining choice. Andrew, I was fascinated how well you kept your composer and did not end up rolling on the floor laughing hysterically at Meng. I was! Yes, I am picking on you Meng. You did become a bit more self-aware near the end of the video so you do get some points for that but Andrew, how did you keep it all together and maintain some semblance of seriousness? Meng marrying a woman? This was an early April Fools joke or something like that right? I don't think there is any way any of us are that foolish though that we would fall for that. Okay, I am done with my picking on Meng session.
I think it’s cool a service like this exists, and it’s an interesting idea, but have similar opinion as Andrew. But also I’m not sure I even feel the need to get married on paper when I meet a man I want to spend my life with
8:34 I saw ‘Drive My Car’ yesterday so this information is just blowing my mind lol
Super cool video! Thank you, Meng and Andrew!
The stats of SOGI of the users make sense.
Mark McLelland is also one of my favorite writers when it comes to Sexuality in Japan! I also recommend the book Queer Voices from Japan, which is a collection of essays written by Japanese queer people, edited and compiled by Mark McLelland and other researchers. That book has many interesting essays written by Japanese lesbians.
Mengmeng always makes me smile. He is sooooooo cute.
I doubt that there would be a huge pool of people here in the west who would participate in this. The concept of romantic love is too ingrained into our psyches. Though I can see the benefits. Another riveting video! Thank you!
I agree. There are also fewer incentives for straight women because the pressure to give up your work and focus on the home after marriage is not as prevalent here.
Western perspective here: in my 40s, lots of dating, nothing that stuck longer than a few years. I've been wanting something like this for ten years, and you're right--it's not a popular idea here, unfortunately. A handful of odd ducks like me exist though. For me it's not about being closeted--I couldn't if I tried, but more about having "family." In my 20s there was all the song and dance about "chosen family" but the thing is, unless you're married or wildly lucky, "chosen family" still pairs up and you're alone on holidays, when planning for the future, etc.
@@dreamersmask Very true. I am often invited by my chosen family but it cannot be assumed. So not the same.
But then something called love does exist and when one of the spouse falls in love with another person ( just consider that after this marriage and a child artificial insemination a child then woman falls in love with a straight man ) the dister will begin because even if the gay people don't value their own love or heart straight people would) then the true illusion of these will fall off tragedy for the kids
I am sometimes closeted here in America and thus get to hear some interesting things. Most of all gay societal pressures in the USA still does exist in many areas and thus closeted gays who I always think about are not willing to sacrafice everything in order to just be who they are. I also know that in the Military it was not uncommon for solders, Marines, etc to be in the closet but their wives were very well aware that their husbands were gay and that they usually had a boyfriend in a long term relationship. With that said there would probably be some use for this service here in America especially in a country with 350 million people. But make no mistake that here in America nowadays if two gay guys want to be legally married, then they can do that but only since 2016. I would refer to the movie the Bird Cage on all of this. I don't want kids and being in my mid 50s I bet that I do not fit that bill for Meng but I do wish him the best of luck and strongly encourage him to follow his passion and his heart.
I was surprised recently to see online that even young Japanese woman are sanguine about their husbands having sex with others. Clearly that attitude makes this service possible.
Have you ever done a video discussing gay prostitution or interviewed anyone who works in this type of employment. i understand that anything other than M-F penetrative sex is legal in Japan.
I recently discovered two instagram accounts of a gay couple in Japan raising a child together. Shiba-dads and koji-dad. I am unsure if they have a TH-cam but I wonder how they were able to achieve that, they must have encountered so many bureaucracy red tapes
Yes, they have a TH-cam channel.
Shiba and Koji
As always this is an informative and fun video. You're both looking great, so the cruise must have really agreed with you!! We'll all stay tuned as to what happens, and to see if you do decide to become "deceptive husbands"!
I'm a bi trans man but lean more gay and love your guys channel lived in Japan for 6 years and intend to come back to live long term. My opinion is that Japanese people once they hit 30 want to marry pretty much anyone just to get married I've seen that in colleagues there's a lot of social pressure to be married by 30 so I can see how a straight girl gay guy marriage could work. They have the stability of being together and partnership but sexual freedom seperate. And I think straight women and gay men would be more aligned in terms of mutual interests and could accompany each other running errands etc. I've noticed a fear of commitment in gay men and gay relationships as well like a fundamental male emotional blockage and the non conventional life path of gay men they don't necessarily need to get married have a family etc so I've noticed a lot of older gay men are just single bachelor's that focus on their careers.
FASCINATING. This sort of marriage caused a lot of heartache in the past, often women not knowing what's going on, cause their gay husbands have not told them. If entered knowingly on both sides, I could see it working 🤔
ETA I want a Totoro like that ❤
No my friend even knowingly it's great disaster just imagine what will happen if the straight women falls in love with the person but they can't move on because they are legally married and have kids with somebody so it will like breaking a family which only existed in illusions for the kida
These marriage still happen because of the Japanese work system! (you talk about it in the video). But this is heavily important in the decision making process for gay men to decide to get married. If same-sex marriage did exist in Japan it would change this story completely!
Maybe not in the first few years of the same-sex marriage system, but on the long run, those arranged marriage would disappear. Gay people would not feel the need to hide anymore.
What is mind-blowing to me is that all the latest data show that the Japanese population is now strongly supporting same-sex marriage (above 60%), but it is still the government that refuses to move forward on this (older heteronormative conservative boomers!!!).
And, of course, the price for the "service" to get married in those fake marriages is outrageous!!! They take advantage of people who feel forced to go along with this system (family pressure, work pressure, social pressure, etc.)... This is literally predation on people who feel high anxiety to meet others expectations!
I do not think it could exist in the West, but there are still many people who do feel they have to get engaged in a straight marriage for social reasons (especially Religion believes of the family!) and who still go to gay cruising places. Even among the younger generation! I sure still see many guys defining themselves as "straight" (with a wife or an official girlfriend) in those places (at least in Europe).
Also, same-sex couple can have children! More and more same-sex couple actually have children, either from adoption, or with a partner who agrees to have a child with them!
I don't think it'll disappear entirely - I think there's definitely a market for it among asexual and non-sexual people, or gay people who are in the closet, or whatever. Maybe introducing same-sex marriage will just increase the combinations you get, such as asexual men marrying gay men, or non-sexual women marrying bisexual women - who knows?
I think, so long as there are people who see marriage as separate from romance/sex (which there likely always will be, even if there's less emphasis on marriage), there'll be people who'll find this to be an appealing idea. I think it's also why I appreciate the idea of Civil Partnerships so much, too - it's legal recognition of a couple, but there's nothing in the vows that says you have to be monogamous to your civil partner. There are people who want that, not just because the society they're in is homophobic, you know?
I think set-ups like this are a common plot point in Sayaka Murata's books! One short story has an asexual woman (who had a child via artificial insemination) living with her best friend, a heterosexual woman, as life partners; another has a non-sexual couple trying to figure out how best to have a child; and the main couple in her (incredibly messed-up but really well-written) novel "Earthlings" are also an asexual/non-sexual match.
I find it really interesting that it appears to be something that's happening more and more (or if not, that people are talking about it more), because it indicates to me that "traditional" heterosexual marriages just aren't working for people anymore. In the absence of gay marriages, civil partnerships, and other ways of legally recognising "non-traditional" families (and few ways of living an independent adult life outside of marriage), people are making do with what they have, it seems.
I also just like hearing more talk about mixed-orientation relationships/marriages! I'm bi, but my beloved wife is asexual, so even though we're very romantically compatible, I feel I understand these "friendship marriages" as a result.
In Germany there was/is the idea to establish the institution of a ‘companionship of responsibility’ which is supposed to fill exactly this gap between marriage and just the recognition to take responsibility not necessarily in a sexual way with another person regardless of their gender or sex.
Sadly this idea lies in some government drawer and isn’t got to be written into law soon.
I think this service is great for the cultures of some Asian countries where marriage is between two families; however, in the West it probably isn't needed for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
Then moving forward when one of the person meets the person they fall in love with then there will be the real breaking of this delusional house ( tragic for the kids)
I’m always in love with your closing music by Ikson! Thx for always bringing up some very interesting content 💙 btw, I def think here in Italy TONS of gay/lesbian people who don’t come out they just get married to someone they don’t actually love or wanna have sex with, with the other partner not being aware of it 😢 if the Japanese thing would work here? Maybe yes, but still heteronormativity is a major issue so people wouldn’t come out of the closet and would just keep getting married and faking it all imo
Lmaaooo Meng's parents are savage 😂😂
Many of my Japanese Gays married with women. Most of those women(wife) accepted about her husband’s sexuality. Husbands go out & have fun with other guys. Also wives can go out to have fun with other guys too.
Very interesting topic guys. When do you two go into this type of business & start conducting the interviews? 🤑I've seen first hand from the male side a number of gay asian guys marry due to the immense family/society pressure, then going on to usually have one child. Maybe non-Japanese asian under most pressure. Conception naturally (but these days could as easily be artificially), separate bedrooms, active gay sex life discretely outside the home. I would love to know more about this arrangement from the female side. I think we all understand the effects of loneliness, so I can see that there can be benefits in these arrangements. I'm saying this from the position of someone who doesn't need to endure this situation. I've also had the opportunity to observe an arranged straight couple in the 30's in countryside Japan, after 3 years that relationship is ongoing (no murder or poisoning yet).
My friend marriage needs a strong base of love especially if you have a child no matter the genders of the people involved. The younger generation of Japan will not only have to endure that but also many will see loneliness in this.
In NYC area it's not common but I've heard of platonic spouses. There was a NYT article on it a few years ago... just search for title "From Best Friends to Platonic Spouses."
I wish this existed but to meet gay men. Matchmaking is not weird to me (many straight people around me have this option) and dating apps are too much pressure I just want someone to find me someone cute and warn them ahead of time I'm a nerd 😂. Not sure why youtube put this in my rec's but what a cute vid. Greetings from Ohio!
Honestly that was very interesting to see as an Italian queer person, as my culture is very distant both from American/central-western European and Japanese culture. I do think that nowadays most Italians (unless people living in southern rural areas, where pressure about having a traditional marriage, children, etc is still very strong) would not use this service, however at the time when I started questioning my sexuality (late 00s/early 10s) or earlier it would have probably been very popular, as the views about marriage were very similar to those of modern-day Japan
1:02 Ok that was uncalled for but low-key hilarious that it’s an assumption 😂
As an ace cisgender woman, I can genuinely see the appeal of a friendship marriage, in fact I see it favouring ace nor non sexual women far more than gay men. Sharing cost of living, household chores, having another person at home helps with companionship without having to worry about the other person wishing to take things in sexual direction. I am very fortunate to have found a romantic partner of 24 years, which some could interpret as a friendship marriage, but if I hadn’t been so lucky I would consider signing up for this. To be clear, I hate that this seems like an option to pressure gay/bi/pan men into a traditional marriage role to fit in with societal expectations, but I can see why 94% of the women signing up are Ace and non-sexual 😊
Glad it exists for the people who would benefit.
Sounds to me like "lavender marriage" but with extra steps. However, I don't think those extra steps are necessarily bad or anything, since you're technically making a contract and marrying a stranger, so it's good to have all those extra steps to make sure you don't get scammed or something by your future spouse (as opposed to "lavender marriages" where both parties are usually acquaintanced with each other in some way before marriage).
This sort of "friendship marriages" seem to be not as unheard of as they used to be in the West, but they're usually performed between people who already know each other regardless of sexualities and who might use benefits that come with marriage or who don't want a spouse but they want kids and so on. This type of marriages are also becoming more of a thing mostly among ace/aro people too rather than gay people since more countries have been legalizing same-sex marriages over the years and thus gay people can marry their actual partner and have the same (or almost the same) rights as a straight couple now.
There's also a lot less pressure in society to get married, have kids and etc nowadays in a lot of Western countries, so I don't think this service itself would be too successful, however the "friendship marriages" themselves could definitely become a thing, especially among the ace/aro communities (and gay/queer communities too in places that aren't as open towards them).
In the USA there is extreme isolation. It's incredibly difficult to make platonic friends let alone a romantic partner. A spouse has the added pressure of being everything to their partner. Best (sometimes only) friend, therapist, financial partner, sex partner, child care, house keeper, and maintenance person respectively.
I think it's probably why divorce is so high.
What an interesting concept.
I am watching a J-series called "Me, My Husband, and My Husband's Boyfriend" and I'm like😮
Great episode! Really opened my eyes to the reasons why someone would use this service. I totally understand for reasons of procreation/citizenship but kinda feel bad for people who fall outside of that. I can't help but feel that would be acting on heteronormative assimilationist values. I could see this being a thing that could work internationally - especially in religous natalist communities. Thanks for your work in making these episodes fellas, you're awesome 💖💖💖💖
Before learning more about Queer history in the US and Asia, I would have been repulsed by this information but more and more I understand even though I wouldn't do it. Also I love that the personality quiz throws lowkey shade.
In terms of the USA, this was a big thing from the 1930s-1960s. Prior to the rise of gay liberation and feminism going "mainstream" in the 70s, Queer organizations like the Mattachine Society endorsed a similar approach to being accepted into American society by having queer men and women marry each other and having children to appear like the stereotypical "White Picket Fence/American Dream Family" and develop loving same sex relationships in the closet. Although it sounds like everything is out in the open in these friendship marriages.
Movie Recommendation: ‘Straight Jacket’.
In the West, there is such a thing as a "Match Maker". This is quite a professional service.
Also, there are people within the LGBTQ community that participate in organised straight relationships for various reasons.
Both are not new to the west.
I think it's a pretty cool service taking into account the culture where it exists, I'm bisexual and I have a male partner, but I sometimes wonder how my life would be if I was lesbian. In my country it would be pretty harsh but at least same sex marriage is recognized in most of the country (but not all). If I was born lesbian and in a country in Asia I would have probably used this service.
Intriguing - as Andrew said - older Japanese guys did this by default. I’m 62 and my Japanese contemporaries are usually in such marriages.
I am grateful that I am living in a culture that my marital status has minimal repercussion on my professional and personal life.
To which his/her/their own really…
My only comment about this topic is... oh, there goes Japan again! 🙄🤣
> maybe because i grew up in (USA) western culture i find my alignment entirely with Andrew on this topic. i understand this service may have appeal to some folks. i never wanted to 'get married' (even if i were straignt) - i had an LTR w my -ex, and never wanted to get married. i eschew any societal pressures for marriage or children.
one issue that you guys did not discuss re this service, given a gay guy in a friendship marriage w a straight women (children or not) - what happens if he is out at the bars or whatever and meets a guy finally that he likes and wants to begin a relationship with that guy? the same for the woman - what if she falls for a co-worker and wants to date that man?
one thing you noted that i find tragically interesting was the point re women of independent means who enter a relationship w straight man - then end up falling back into traditional enslavement of the female role of cooking, cleaning & child-rearing only.
You guys are awesome. Binge watched so many episodes.
Meng - if you were a top, you’d be sooooo perfect!
Love your smile; goals; vibe & soooo hot!
Fan from Australia 😇
haha, careful he could be a handful! 🤭
WOWza! While I do understand that this guidance option is probably more relevant in modern Asian cultures that still maintain societal pressures to conform to traditional stereotypes, that pressure still exists worldwide with degrees of severity. Two generations ago in the west, these domestic arrangements were not uncommon due to anti-gay laws which essentially forced many into 'marriages of connivence' as a previous poster commented. I hope that the more gender-fluid we become, theses needs will be eliminated in society. Cheers Guys. You never cease to occasionally surprise me with your content.
I could NEVER live a false life. For anyone. Not for my family, not for my friends, not for anyone.
I hope if Meng gets married he will still come on a date with me?
The concept of marriage is a very antiquated idea but for the gay community is very new which brings conflicting feelings.🤔
Please interview the "former?" (gay for pay) actor, Yuki Sorci.
Friend of the show, Don, says that he's back but his face is blurred 🤷🏾♂
He is amazing ...
When you are surrounded by bottoms and only top is a woman. 🌚
I see where there might be a need for this in many parts of Asia. A lot of the countries are mono-ethnic and have certain cultural norms that are strictly enforced. Anyone from the New World would find this hard to understand. We are a melting pot and our cultures are many. Besides, in places like Japan, the needs of the many are more important, in most Western cultures we have a strong individualist streak. We celebrate the individual person more.
The bad thing about gays caving in to this family and societal pressure is that, if you do that, nothing will ever change. You think it was easy for us baby boomers to come out in the seventies and eighties? Trust me, I grew up in a blue collar suburb of Detroit and it wasn't easy. But, without that, we wouldn't have SSM and gay rights now.
Lavender marriages in 2024? 😨This is definitely one of the things ''the west' does better, being far more chill around single people not wanting to get married and people increasingly marrying for love.
In some cultures and laws you have to consumate a marriage. I.e. if someone challenges the couple they could lose any benefits they get for being married. Not sure if this still applies though.
Meng over here turning into a twunk in real time. Keep hitting the gym baby it’s a good look for you ♥️
As someone who got married to hide being gay and meet society norms I would never recommend this. I was driven to thoughts of suicide living like that. I am glad at 27 I was able to tell my wife and family and divorce. Gay people can have kids and I have so many friends that are gay and have kids. I have a Chinese friend who was going to do the fake marriage. He was having twins with his husband but for family in china they were going to do fake marriage before the kids were born. I told him no way you will hate yourself for it. How can you expect your kids to be proud of you as a gay person if you are to ashamed to be honest with the world? He didn’t do it and now it put with everyone and the twins are a years old. They are wonderful kids and he can hold his head high. All the money you are going to spend on the fake marriage and later divorce is such a waste.
I think as an American lesbian I could marry a gay guy just for the benefits and having a male figure for my future children but they would def have to have their own room and even own house
Hey ming. I am Chinese too.just got in Japan for almost 4 month.I want to know you.May I have some ways to get in touch with you?
People marry their friends. They find themselves getting older and think "why not marry my best friend". There is a video or documentary, I don't remember which one, about it.
And they both know about their spouse' sexual orientation, both gay.
This sounds like a good solution 30-20 y. back in Poland.
Andrew‘s eyes 😏
Thinking about why lesbians make up such a small number of the women using the service - I wonder if it has anything to do with stereotypes about lesbians in Japan? I'm obviously not Japanese and am fine with being corrected, but from what I've read, as a sapphic individual who researched living in Japan, the stereotype is that lesbians eventually "grow out of it", or that it's a phase. I wonder if a lot of lesbian women feel pressured to marry men through more traditional omiai services, because they're just expected to closet themselves as adults?
Living w/ a man even for a straight woman is no easy feat. Lesbian women most likely don't want to deal w/ that.
Hola! ❤I love the channel and want to say that the plant needs water.
0:37 Haha nice one
I am curious to what the statistics are on those marriages producing children within them? And how would it be if the woman goes out and gets pregnant by another man? Is the husband expected to be responsible for the child? So many questions!!
Andrew and Meng, when I was in the Closet, I hated myself and so I tried desperately to my best to be Straight and I tried to "like" girls. I was LYING like a bastard to myself! I was forcing all my feelings. It was horrible. 😲😮💨 I finally Came Out at 36. I'm Gay to stay, honey! Happy Year of the Dragon 🐉 from a Dragon 🐲🧧. Meng, here is some lettuce🥬 to feed your dragon 💵💴. 🇺🇸🏳️🌈🤝🇨🇦🇨🇳🏳️🌈
It's a "marriage of convenience".
First, dont put yourself down by saying you are not normal and listening to that nonsense about normal relationship. But regarding the topic, I am Canadien and straight female but I think Andrew is right about culture. There is not much pressure on getting married and have kids here in general and mariage is more like a love thing. Although at 46 I went back into the dating scene and I noticed LOTS of straight men stating non ethical monogamy or polyamorous ( my ahe group was 35 to 50ish). Also in my province of origin (Québec), couples are more into common-law relationships then getting married anyway. Where I currently live in MB it is more conventional I believe. Would it work in Western countries? Maybe. It would be a niche market for sure. Matchmaking is not really a big thing here either, people are mostly on their own on apps and stuff. But the pressure of mariage and having kids is not strong in certain part of the world. What makes me weird is the children part and comment about having children the natural way, you are forcing two individual not attracted to each others to have sex in order to have kids. I dont know how prevalent IVF is in Japan, but I dont need a husband to have a kid either. So in the end, it is highly cultural since mariages and children is a big deal in Japan, LGBTQ is still taboo and gay mariages are not allowed. The views of a Japanese normal couple and life of them is very different fm Western views so. If this services is offered in Canada's I could see LGBTQ + arguments that they have fought so hard for legal mariage and rights that is seems like a step back of 80 years. But people are free to do what they please in the end. Asexual people, it is hard for them sometime to find a partner that understand it and accept it. As for non sexual, what is it? Women who are not sexually active?
I'm a big fan! Loving the videos. Not sure I like the stereotypes promoted by the GBFF trope. I had a lot of female friends trying to mold our friendships to align with them... It felt weird and forced.
Works in China or Japan but I don't it works for North America!
The world is changing...
I feel the same way as Meng, better doing an honest arrangement with a funny girlfriend and get companionship in your life, specially if you both like kids and always wanted kids. It’s just being practical, and you won’t lose much if you are not a guy who is into the gay scene . Sex and looks are too overrated on the gay “community”, that’s why the chances of getting a lifetime partner are minimal.
Being gay is much much more than just being active on the gay and just imagine how much you would make the women miss by the time she did those friendship things with you she could atleast meet a person who would truly love her in sexual and romantic way another thing just imagine what a disaster it will be for your kids if your so called wife really falls in love with some man as she should she would have to either sacrifice her love or her kids why make all these situation in the first place
💙💙💙
1st nice
I understand the rationale laid out in the video but, frankly, I think that this kind of approach to convenient life is a dead end. There are more dimensions to being gay than just sex: it's also living together, having a future together, planning together, etc. When you are married to somebody else, you can only have 5-minute-long-sinning together.
So, I would never use such a service. I came out, I showed the middle finger to the bigots, and carved my space in the life, and going back to Narnia is just an alien concept to me.
LOVE
People get married for many reasons. Personally though I don't see myself subscribing to the idea of a marriage for convenience. If the society you are in pressures you to do something that is opposed to your values or contrary to who you really are, then by any means you have to move somewhere else, you are not a tree.
If I was still in Korea, I would have done that. Iv always wanted a family and to get married but its hard to do that when the gay community doesnt like this.
My friend marriage requires love not friendship. Just imagine you are in reality would be signing up for a disaster because just imagine after having a child ( through artificial insemination) the wife meets a person they really love. nad then still they will have to either stay with you for the kids or kids will be further traumatized as they might already be traumatized from the fact that the base of family which is love between the gaurdians doesn't exist ( no matter the genders of the gaurdians kids always want that base to exist).
@annjen8405 many ppl in Asian countries do not marry for love. For many its a contract or going to wedding matcher. Even though iv been out of Korea since 2016, I bet you there are still many who do the arrange by friend, family or company. Not saying there are no love marriages. But Asians in Asia view love differently than westerners.
@@kp-gbuniqueinterest I am an Asian And let me tell you most familial traumas in our families are because loveless marriage happen .but that's not the case anymore and many throughout the history have always fought for their loves and currently many marry or remain in relationships only for love because we all know the traumas which a loveless marriage can have leaving few who are forced into these ( not talking for Islamic countries ).
We all are human and we know what love is . It's not that we feel love differently than Westerners it's just that many were coered into things just thinking how the society will react that habit had been ingrained into us that's why many people even if they want to divorce they can't because many times it's a taboo. Many hold inside them a burning bright hatred towards themselves frustration towards society and family etc which we slowly and gradually comes out and is hand over but that chain breaks when we break out of the chains of the society and now many of us are free but more people need to become free.
@@kp-gbuniqueinterest I am an Asian You are true thinking that we Asian view love differently we believe in loyalty( for us loyalty defines love) most of us and unlike what's happening in Japan open relationships are a taboo even among gay couples and we are extremely possessive of our beloveds . Friendships are valued for sure but we don't do things like marrying your friends that's disgusting🤢🤮.
It's not that we don't fall in love it's that many of as fall in love but the mentality to obey the society is ingrained in us( many Asians like you also have that mentality)so much that we keep the person in our heart and act like we love the other person with whom we might be forced into marriage ( thus we destroy all their chances and ours also) with all these anger hatred and frustration many us had become abusive .Now many have started marrying for love and now it's better. Religion is another influencing factor which forces every thing now people are fighting against it also.
@@kp-gbuniqueinterest those loveless marriages are never a success ( from outside they look good but from inside they are abusive) you don't know half of things which happens in Asia . Here nowadays parents and friends introduce people and they get to know each other if they like each other then only marriages happen or else they won't parents don't coerce.
MENG NEEDS THAT MILITARY HUBBY ASAP THIS IS NOT A DRILL
I Don't Wanna Comment Or Criticise,
But ......
When You Decide To Bring Your Child Via This Kinda Background?
Actually This Is A Second Video I Watched About This Topic Today,
So In Future This Will Be Trending.
Got in 2nd hahaha
7:07 Wow way to get sucker punched right in the solar plexus with that one.
I dont think anyone really knows if this would work in North America or not. Someone needs to open such a business in New York or elsewhere called "Will and Grace Matchmaking." 😊
You are disgusting. Marriage always needs a strong base of love atleast think about the kids before getting involved in a love less marriage kids always need that base of true love in family ( no matter straight couple, gay couple, lesbian couple) . Just imagine what if the other person really falls in love with someone then they will have to live a miserable life with you for the kids or the already traumatized kids will be more traumantized.
I wonder if as a western person I have a chance to find a marriage candidate in Japan. >.
nope
@@n-rey lol
9:41 Wasn’t this a thing in 1950s America where couples would have twin beds?
I'm not sure... I think that was only on TV because the networks weren't allowed (or didn't allow themselves) to show any indication that their husband and wife actually were sexual beings.
@@jjbsnak95096 Hmmmm maybe you’re right