Destiny And Elijah Schaffer Get HEATED In Live Ukraine Debate...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- DEBATE: Destiny debates Elijah Schaffer on whether or not Ukraine is evil
Date: 27 Apr, 2022
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Destiny debates Elijah Schaffer on whether or not Ukraine is evil
PS. chapters and timestamps are not working atm
Dang, at least you tried your bestiny
August!! take this cookie
In August we trust.
It's a hell of a thing when you are debating whether or not a country fighting for it's right to self determination and to protect it's people from god damn genocide is evil.
Long story short, the ignorance and entitlement is the highest in the most opinated people. Was this guy a "COVID-expert" previously? Destiny is doing a good job though. Maybe just invite people from Eastern European for these talks as well
So because Ukraine isn't as old as other countries its allowed to be invaded by an other country. That's just mind-boggling.
It’s so weird to see people defend modern imperialism with the same excuses that they had back in 1760.
Ukraine is older than Russia, just not as an official 'country'.
@@Green815 No, it's not. Ukrainian identity started to form in the XIX century. It doesn't mean they aren't a real nation with their own sovereign state tho.
Imagine all the countries the British, French and Spanish could invade with that excuse
@@iamwritingrightnow8217 They couldn't, because they are not set up for that type of government policy.
Imagine starting a war then getting pissed when the enemy attacks back
You mean like America?
@@jarekkish5515 objection, whataboutism
@@jarekkish5515 and here comes another "America bad "argument. Please try harder
@@user-cd4ms6cf8l America IS bad. End of discussion.
@Dante Hasan is also a simp for the American Regime, he only pretends not to be.
Also, Ukraine isn't named "Border Lands", it's "Homeland". And either way, your country being named something doesn't give anyone any rights to invade it.
Well, there are people who believe that one of the largest countries in the world had only one "border land" and that was Ukraine.
no, ukraine is derrived from the slavic Ukraina which literally translates to borderlands. This isnt to say the Kieven Rus are cultureless, but rather that the modern territory of Ukraine was considered the borderland or buffer to the west. Ideally however we must understand these things, modern Ukraine doesn't want to be the borderland I'd assume, however it has kept the name it recieved which neccecitated its position as the buffer from the west where many invasions occured against Russia. I hold no opinion one way or the other as its a weak point, but Elijah was not incorrect in him calling it the borderlands.
@@caymanhunter2612as slavic, should say that you are wrong. “Krai” more often used as definition of place, not “border” for border there are alot of more proper words in both Ukrainian Russian Poland and other languages.
@VolodymyrBurmistr Krai does have a connection with place. The etymology if you go far back enough Ukraina would literally mean border-land. The Krai still means place/land
@@caymanhunter2612That's what Kremlin propaganda made you think
I cringed so hard every time Elijah called Ukraine "the borderland". Bruh, that's an age-old russian propagandist version of the name. So wack.
"I'm not defending Putin"
Proceeds to defend Putin for almost 2 hours.
He's defending the position not the man.
I liked when Destiny calls him on it and says "that's what Putin says, what do you think though?" And then Elijah just immediately dodges left and continues to spew Kremlin justifications.
@Dapper Pig reply to some more comments
He should just admit he doesn’t recognize Ukrainian sovereignty. That would solve this whole issue.
@Jack Black i agree. state it clearly tho.
"I don't condone or justify Russia's actions", spends an hour justifying Russia's actions.
explaining isn't justifying
This is the majority opinion in the world: Russia has justification to attack, but should not attack ( for several reasons, legal, humanitarian, and so on).
@@emilianosintarias7337 I have yet to hear a justification that doesn't ignore the sovienty of Ukraine. If you ignore that, then it is just imperialism.
@@emilianosintarias7337 If any of thise were true, maybe. But none of it is. There was no genocide, no build up of forces to attack Russia, "the west" doesn't control their government. These are all excuses Russia and it's propagandists put out to justify the invasion. Show me the evidence. If this stuff was happening, then you need to show me credible, compelling evidence. Otherwise you are regurgitating propaganda and justifying Russia's invasion of a soverign nation, just like Elijah did.
@@rembrantsworkshop Actually it is true that there was and i a build up of forces, NATO was invited in. That's an enemy military organization of far greater power than Russia, and not anymore a legal one, that has surrounded their territory in refusal of diplomacy and violation of NATO's founders wishes
They were even proposed by ukraine to eventually place atomic weapons on their soil. And the west does control their government, so many experts and heads of state has said this, and there has been tons of journalism since the far right coup on this. Even the incident of leaked audio of Victoria Nuland picking members of cabinet. Right now journalists from around the world report that US military train Ukrainian forces, supply Ukrainian forces, and how it is the most corrupt country in the most corrupt part of Europe and so on. And think about how crazy what you are saying is with "Russian propaganda", as if it's this big force , Russia is not a superpower, it doesn't have an Empire, and no real media or cultural power. It has of course its fake news mills, but it is not even 1% of western propaganda volume, you know the people who do actually have the largest control over the world and produce the movies, cable news, podcasts and tv series people watch? Russia has an economy the size of italy and could not have illegally destroyed the richest country in Africa ,killed its leader. and got away with it
The guy who says "Progressives don't like to look too far back because it's always about the future" completely fails to see that Ukraine's history didn't start with USSR?
It literally did though. Ukraine was established as a region of governance by Lenin and became a unified country with the fall of the USSR.
@@dangin8811 and Poland didn't exist until the end of WWII
Germany also didn't exist until 1945 as well
@@fatfrostbolt don't get into that. Rus doesn't mean Russia. Russia tries to make claims to Ukrainian things... just to justify their bullying. Ask a Ukrainian what they think of that topic.
@KNUR Konesur literally no one ever
"Hi my name is Elijah I dress like a cool youth pastor and I'm going to defend/not defend war crimes"
His fanboys coming to this video are just as cringe.
I'm not saying the Ukraine invasion is justified but here's why the Ukraine invasion is justified.
thats what i kept thinking the whole time. Heres 50 different reasons russia invading is ok.
Destiny: none of that justifies invading
Elijah: I never said it was justified
It’s called double-speak.
He is one of the worst propagandists out there. He is a smarter version on Alex Jones.
Ok so my thesis would be very simple: blaaah blaaah blaaah not the correct narrative blaaah blaaaah blaaaah
@@bingbong3643 how DARE you compare THE Alex Jones with this dork???
He’s giving their perspective, he stated multiple times he’s not defending Russia’s actions
1:02:30
Admits he didnt think Russia would invade
1:03:48
Calls Ukraine evil for thinking Russia wouldnt invade
Lol
so close
Wild isn't it?
@@hereticmantra Personally, this line of argument falls a little flat for me. The idea that Ukraine is responsible for starting the war by seeking for allies when Russia has already annexed territory from them just a few years prior sounds silly. For all intents and purposes, they were already besieged by a foriegn invader. It's essentially saying that Ukraine could have avoided war with Russia if they had just surrendered before it started.
@@hereticmantra Sorry if I didnt address your point. It's unfortunate that we cant run the counter factual to know how it might go but I have a hard time believing that many Ukrainians thought war was avoidable after they had been invaded and engaged in armed conflict with a powerful and aggressive neighbor for nearly a decade already.
I'd also push back on the characterisation of that president maintaining neutrality, given the controversial, and arguably unconstitutional passage of the Kharkiv Pact in 2010. This skirting of the legislative process and Russia renegging on natural gas discounts fomented a lot of the discontent which boiled over into the protests. Following the failed crackdown and subsequent coup, Russia unilaterally terminated the agreement and occupied Crimea. I just don't know what options Ukraine had left to them at that point besides to fight the war on their own, surrender their territory peacefully, or talk to NATO and bolster their defense. That said, I recognize this is only my opinion and I do agree with you that there should have been public discourse about it. It just feels a little victim blamey to point to this as worthy of moral consideration rather than the behavior of the instigating nation.
As for the topic, I also agree that it was childish. I think the black and white dichotomy of good and evil is too simple a lense for geopolitics. I doubt any country has acted purely moral throughout its history.
If Destiny didn't interrupt, this guy would just talk for 2 hours without stopping.
😂
True, except this is more yelling/shouting than talking.
Well when all of your "counter-arguments" are in bad-faith or intellectually dishonest, it requires long-winded responses.
Both to state the claim and to address its flaws.
Why does he talk like he's doing slam poetry?
Bro literally this even though I’m right wing this dude never shuts up
One thing that these people always forget is that Russian-speaking =/= ethnic Russian. Crimea is (or was) the only part of Ukraine that has an ethnic Russian majority. Every other Russian-speaking part of Ukraine is majority ethnic Ukrainian but they were heavily russified over the course of the twentieth century. So saying eastern Ukraine is Russian because they speak Russian is like saying Ireland is British because they speak English.
Or think of how many countries there are where a majority speak English as a second-language, are those countries now 50% British? Should they pay half-taxes to Britain? lmao
Well, coming from Ukrainian, we've not considered Crimeans as ethnically Ukrainian, rather ethnically Crimeans or Crimean Tatars. That's probably one of the reason they've had autonomous republic before 2014. As for russian language, before the 24th of February A LOT of people were speaking russian even in Kyiv and noone was persecuted for that or somehow humiliated, so yeah
yes we need ireland and the thirteen colonies back, thanks for reminding me the empire may rise again!
Language can be a big deal, but different language is usually tied to a different culture.
The Azov Nazis want to murder the "Russified" Ukranians, and this happens.
It is part of why Putin had the support to start the war in the first place. That and the fear of NATO.
if crimea really belonged to ukraine in 2014 why did they cut rents after the coup?
"What justifies Russia's invasion?"
[5-minute response, where he claims to be answering the question multiple times.]
"Okay, well how does that justify invasion?"
"I'm not claiming it's justified."
lol.
All he had to say was that Ukraine becoming an American proxy threatens Russia’s existence as an anti-liberal state. America seeks to poison other countries with degeneracy through soft power, and so Russia is responding with hard power. But he’s either too stupid or too cowardly to make that argument.
he doesn't justify it the way you want or?
How about the intervention in yugoslavia or the US's interference in kosovo and the massive camp bondsteel there?
Is that not a breach of these international norms/rules whatever? Russia didn't break these rules of self governence and interferance into internal conflicts first.
If the US can do it, then does it have moral rightousness to say otherwise...
He's not saying it's right just explaining as to why they would invade Ukraine
No invasion is justified. US involvement in Ukraine is wrong. Founding and training of extremists in Ukraine is wrong. Pushing for a proxy war is wrong
@@cfvgd that sentences is wrong would you say the invasion of Nazi Germany was wrong. Wars are not good but there the price country's pay for there ideals
Damn man. Schaffer is actually delusional. Lots of patience on destiny’s end. I could never.
What is he delusional about specifically?
@@Ohnonono123 About Russia’s actual intentions and about the justifiability of the entire thing (e.g. he claims Russia’s actions can’t be morally justified and then proceeds to try to justify their actions). Besides having a bunch of facts right out wrong (e.g. Ukraine didn’t have a “coup” in 2014 and doesn have a “puppet government”), he’s also stupid enough to believe the Russian propaganda. Schaffer is what I’d call a very useful idiot for the Kremlin, despite probably not intending to be sympathetic to their cause.
@@Ohnonono123 His idea that Ukraine deserved to be invaded because they attempted to join NATO.
@renegadeforever6878 has NATO invaded Russia? No? Then don’t change the subject, we’re talking about Russia invading Ukraine unjustly and Schaffers attempt to justify it.
bro what? Destiny showed no patience in this interview, he constantly cut him off and belittled him. I'm on Destiny's side of the argument, but he did not conduct himself professionally in the debate while Schaffer did.
1:30:30 The dude answered his own question with his question. Up until 2014, the 3 countries he mentioned had all remained in close association with each other. Belarus and Ukraine marched to the Russian drum, had highly corrupt states, and poorly represented the interests of their people. The other former USSR members pursued relations and associations with powers other than Russia - the baltic states joined nato and sought western association, the eastern breakaway states sought Chinese association or middle eastern regional associations. In 2014, when Ukraine tried to pursue a western association and deal with their internal corruption and governmental problems... RUSSIA INVADED THEM.
Shout out to the argument "Zelensky is evil because he should have been honest with his people that Russia would invade if they didn't do what russia wanted"
Keep in mind this was moments after saying "no idea russia would invade, everyone thought it was crazy"
The reasoning was sound. Reasons for not telling are stronger and seems saved more lives.
This was to keep the population calm and economy stable while quietly preparing for a potential invasion, which then ultimately occurred. No evil intent there
@@fishbiter9409 Yeah, really. I guess he never heard of white lies before.
@@BobTheBuilder5800 it's the exact opposite. Zelensky was preparing forces to invade and occupy the Donbass and Crimea regions.
@@KuddlyKittyKat first off just wrong, but second… invade areas that are part of Ukraine? They were stolen by Russia and there was an ongoing war. Wtf are you taking about?
This wasn't even a debate. Elijah took the position of "I won't defend Russia, but Zelenski's regime is evil because they do propaganda" and then never brought up any points to back up his position, just spewed Russian propaganda. Couldn't answer a question either, I don't know how Destiny handled that convo without exploding
It's probably easier to handle that kind of thing when you know that you're trouncing your opponent in a room packed full of students
@@NickMachado I'm pretty sure that at the very beginning of the debate the moderator specifically said that it's about "whatever they come up with." This was supposed to be a free flowing conversation and not just a debate about a single statement. He says that he's not justifying the invasion but it's really weasely. He says things like "I'm not saying Russia is justified but I'm saying that Russia has a reason" which is a corny semantic shell game.
“Is Ukraine evil” is a question of justification of action or else two people would be slapping each other with wet noodles arguing over what flavor of morality they cling to and how Ukraine’s does or doesn’t live up to that.
So nick its not that destiny didn’t stay on topic or whatever the question on that level is just stupid.
They’re not evil full stop btw. You are promised sovereignty after being genocided only for one of the parties to turn around and be like lol jk when you stopped dancing to their own music doesn’t make you a bad guy and “they have some problems tho” is not the checkmate some apparently think it is
@@NickMachado “America wasn’t justified in there invasion of Iraq but let’s not pretend they didn’t have a good reason to invade, plus are you really gonna defend the authoritarian dictator who was in control of the country?”
I actually watch Elijah and am a fan of his but he is not a debater lol. I actually attended one of his in person speaking events and asked if he had prepared for this debate at all and he said no (this was the Friday before this debate, 5 or so days prior). So that tells you what you need to know about how this went
God, it is honestly so impressive how much better steven has gotten at navigating every aspect of a conversation. Well done lad, I’m proud
He was lucky his opponent was pretty bad/ignorant. Destiny said countries don't break up after foreign intervention. Has he never heard of Yugoslavia? There is also a clear parallel between the famines in Ukraine and Russians being shipped in and famines in Ireland and protestants (mainly Scottish) being shipped into the Northern part of Ireland yet Northern Ireland was allowed to break away from Ireland and join the UK. Also the US continues to control parts of Syria and I'm sure would love to see Syria broken up.
Really it was kind if embarrassing think destiny thought it was going to be a walk. He figured Elijah is the joke guy so how tough was it going to be. Then in his opening comment Elijah laid out the history of the Ukraine and what actually coursed the conflict. Them Destiny went into shrieking and emotional arguments. Destiny looked pissed of and his body language spoke volumes the constant self hugging and looking down and his constant interrupting and trying to switch and reinterperate the argument. While Elijah looked calm and pointed out actual facts. Destiny looked really unprepaired in comparison.
@@jackgenre11 You seem a bit biased. So do you believe that Ukraine is evil?
@@ushift I think the talk being titled the Ultaine is evil was a bomb name it's like saying a rock is evil. Now if we are talking about things that have been done by the present regime like supporting Nazis disappearing journalist mass killings of Ukrainian Russians and jailing of political candidates from other parties and the closing of tv stations who do not support the Ukraine leader those could be defined as evil. But in Turn Putin has also committed evil actions on similar levels such as the poisoning of political opponents. Now should the west's leaders be pushing us into military conflict with Russia? No should we send medical aid and food ant accept refugees during the conflict yes. But sending our own people to doe for a boarder dispute no.
@@ushift As if we aren't in destinys youtube comment section, and yes Ukraine's is evil.
Elijah lost me on the intro where he said that Ukraine joined the Warsaw pact. Interesting, considering Ukraine was literally a part of the USSR at that time. That's kind of important to know since the shit the USSR did to Ukraine is a huge part of why Ukraine doesn't like Russia.
He just showed how uninformed he is
I'm amazed how much Schaffer can talk without saying anything.
I'm also amazed how Destiny can just sit there and listen and not yell "GET TO THE POINT!"
If he was on stream Destiny would have lost his shit after about 20 minutes
Human word salad
I didn't know elijah is this smart to go toe to toe with destiny. Really impressive
@@Lion-hj7ch I wouldn’t call it toe to toe
Never interrupt an opponent when they're making a mistake
Honestly this Elijah guy just felt like a weasel. He was just tacitly supporting Russia’s actions whilst trying to repeat “I don’t support Putin or anything..”
He needs to just come out of the closet already.. or uh.. Russian nesting doll
2 hours of, "I don't support Putin, but here are the reasons he should be able to do whatever he wants."
@@Derek_Watts lol exactly he’s being such a weasel
@@SAFbikes The whole time he’s like “well both governments..”, but then “well Russia has these reasons so…”
I think you missed his "point". The democratic elected government is evil because Russia invaded and displaced 8 million refugees. Zelenskyj is evil because Ukranians are fighting back with actual weapons, and not barehanded, and something duckduckgo. ;)
Eli on Ukraine: "Whose country is it then??!"
Their OWN. Jesus Christ. Is this guy for real?
The people voted to seperate.
@@lolfemfaillol3933 So did the Confederacy.
The argument he’s making is nonsense, he’s simultaneously arguing for and against himself.
Elijah. Not Eli. You're not buddy buddy. Parasocial sheep
Yes, and? Are we no longer in favor of democracy?
This dude tried comparing Russia sending troops to crimera and even having troops fight without uniforms in those groups to NATO sending support to Ukraine 🗿🗿🗿🗿 wtf
NATO started so many proxy wars
your brain on america bad
Sanest putin supporter
@@HotPinkOstrich if you’re talking about me I hate Putin with a passion but I’m going to guess you were talking about someone else
@@Channel-23s he's attributing that comparison to the mindset of the sanest putin supporter, though the guy debating destiny says he doesn't support putin (don't know why he wants to concede so much to him though)
Elijah: talks for 30 min straight without saying anything
Destiny: 1 short question/statement
Elijah: Let me finish 1 sentence, this is what you do, you interrupt people
Demonmama tactics
destiny doesnt listen tho
+ nice lying
Dude is so unbelievably ignorant. On Taiwan/China duuuuh I think it’s different because I don’t think there was a civil war.. HOW THE HELL DID TAIWAN FORM?? Holy hell Chinese Civil War??? No??
That’s not what happened lol.
Take it you did not actually listen to him he laid out every point and even the document numbers of agreements. Rewatch Elijas opening argument rather than fan boy over destiny. This was one of Destiny's worst he tells people to do their research first before debating but he looked like he had not listened to his own advice.
@@jackgenre11 this opening statement was the most racist and bigoted one he could have done, and there was no claims backing his position. And citing the Minsk agreement to "support" his stupid position as Destiny mentioned after was completely out of topic. Finally Zelensky was voted in 2019, not 2014.
i really dont like how people who talk for minutes on end will insist that they dont get interrupted. Like bro, you have been talking for like 80% of this conversation. Gish-galloping andys.
exactly, asking a clarifying question or a pointed question, isn't meant to launch another monologue.
Destiny killing it recently, very proud of our homeless man
he should just get melina to do all of his clothes shopping for him
@@the500mphtortoise that would be cringe
Your Veritas videos are peak, good work bro
upload again reeee
@@luciddream2033 U don't know what neocon means so try not to use it
I can't believe I used to watch Elijah. Thank you for saving my lost soul destiny lmao
All you need to say is that the United States Department of Defense was funding biolabs near Russian borders. Labs that handle pathogens (covid) that apparently, when they escape, necessitate shutting down the non-corporate economy of the world.....
Did anyone else notice how Elijah didn't really deal with destiny's arguments or give a proper response to them?
He just kept talking and talking repeating the worst talking points while keeping on repeating that he doesn't really support Russia over and over.
I felt like destiny was talking to a bot sometimes
Destiny is a bot. Why do you think anybody needs to respond to destiny dumb ass points that are rubber stamped by the state department.
He's a Hinckle bot, same style, makes you wonder where these fifth columns were trained.
I was getting legitimate psyop vibes, like I am convinced this dude is a Russian plant or propagandist or something. It was just way too bizarre, you could tell he didn't actually believe in or care about any of the things he was saying... and yet, he was REALLY good at defending them. I mean not really, not against Destiny, but he was a good talker, he has a good vocabulary, that takes some amount of brain power. The fact that he clearly doesn't understand, care about, or believe in any of the things he's saying, but yet is still so heavily invested in it... idk I don't say this often but this dude had to have been getting paid to say that stuff. There's just no way, and I don't understand why someone would embarrass themselves so brutally otherwise.
Because they’re is no justification for what Russia is doing. He literally has no argument just some dipshit conspiracy theories and Russian propaganda of course he can’t actually engage with destiny’s points.
What arguments just emotional rants that had nothing to do with Ukraine. I mean he did not actually disprove anything Elijah said. Plus Elijah did counter Destinys rants with facts
Elijah "I'm not defending Russia, now let me defend why Russia's actions are justified"
I don’t defend the Soviet Union I hate commies but I see why they attacked Germany
Funny how he just accepts Putin's election "regardless of if it's free and fair or not", but then questions the legitimacy of zelensky's government for 2 hours.
So many contradictions
You weren't listening to a word he even said
@@kerseyatwell4475 over 5 times he tried denouncing how he wasn't in favor of Russia, while saying Ukraine is a puppet of America and, I believe he included, the EU. Ironically enough, when the one in charge was pro-Russia, and had to escape for how he dealt with the protesters of Ukraine.
And in the end, he didn't care about the conflict going on there...yeah, I was listening from beginning to end.
I could instead say, you just didn't care what he said or the facts of the matter, you just accept his word salad as 'why Ukraine is evil', which even he had a difficult time advocating that when the main problem for Ukraine is that it's accepted as a sovereign country, the problem is that it was ran by corruption, with it's source being next door.
The student who called Elijah out for not believing his own bullshit made me laugh so hard. It was so true!
Elijah really needs to work on his openings, like even if we ignore the length, because you can have good long openings, how about some structure? It didn't seem like he gave much of a thesis or outlined the argument he was going to be making, He just immediately launched into the history of the Ukraine. He never indicated why this information would support his case and not Destiny's.
Nah man just spout out as much information as possible and hope some of it is relevant. Best debate strategy
That's why he is still known only for getting beaten, not the brightest fellow.
dude, I've been listening to his opening for 10 minutes now, and it's like I can't even hear what he is saying. Everything is smushed together in loud noises. Kinda like when a kid writes a dm without any period in sight.
@@LiMaking Exactly this. I can here pretty dry content. but halfway through I was zoning out.
@@McClain3000 yup, I zoned out big time. He didn't put any emphasis on anything, or give us time to consider or think about what he had just said. He just went loudly on to the next bit, and it simply gave me a headache. I did not end up watching this debate.
As a Ukrainian I thank you Destiny ❤
How many young Ukrainian men have died so your country could be leveled in the process of Russia achieving their original goal of taking the Donbass and Crimea? What do you think Putin might do if Ukraine was to drive the Russian armies back into Russia? Do you think he will just step down and face a military tribunal?
@@matttttttttttttt685 Russia's original goal was to take over Kyiv and overthrow Ukrainian government, installing his puppet government in its place. That clearly didn't work. Stop moving goalposts. If the goal would be just Donbass and Crimea - they would have never made a raid for Kyiv, Kharkiv and Odessa.
Personally I doubt Ukraine would drive Putin back all the way to Russia, but if they do - Russia would likely start collapsing as a country. Which on one hand is very dangerous (nukes, though we did survive a fall of Soviet Union without nukes getting away into terrorists), but on the other hand a most welcome change (decolonization).
@@matttttttttttttt685 it's quite obvious that not resisting authoritarism breeds more authoritarism. Not resisting invasions breeds more invasions. Giving up to the aggressor only encourages them to keep their aggression.
@andrewpiltenko9432 who do you think Russia would invade next? How would they do considering their performance in Ukraine and their financial situation? Stop repeating the double digit IQ tropes you heard on The View or wherever you get your news. An entire generation of young men have been wiped out and an already poor country destroyed because a bunch of bloodthirsty Trotskyites won't forgive Russia for abandoning their brand of communism. Ukraine will never recover because a bunch of idiots pretended to help.
@@matttttttttttttt685joined one year ago to spread ruzzian propaganda
Problem with Elijah is that he views Ukraine the same way Russian nationalists do and that Ukraine is not a real country. That is essential the root of this conflict. I agree with Destiny here. Ukrainians have right to their land and no Ukraine is not some kind of Zionists Khazaria made by Zionist American politcians. Ukrainains east slavic peopel different from Russians. They are very simmilar but not entirely the same. Most Ukrainians want to be more close to central Europeans like Poland, Hungary, Slovakia etc. While Russia is all about this Euroasian imperialism. Btw I know about this because Im Czech and we have many Ukrainian refugees here but we've had Ukrainians coming here in large numbers way before this conflict.
"I won't defend Putin" *goes on doing exactly that. Only that. This dude better be on Russian payroll because if not, it would mean he really believes this dribble and he's just another victim of the psyop and that is terrifying
we are all victims of many psycops, no one that isnt in ukraine knows whats really happening. the propaganda is really all we have access to.
Putin isn’t the bad guy. He’s just trying to maintain Russian dominance in the area. The US literally does the same thing in Syria and Iraq. But those countries aren’t even close. If the US doesn’t lead by example then Russia will continue to have a war in eastern Ukraine.
@@FazeParticles Putin is not a bad guy??? Putin? Vladimir Putin ex kgb, the biggest cleptocrat in human history who regularly murders his opponents, that Putin? Are you on krokodil? GTFO!
This guy went on for 40 minutes bringing up the Minsk agreement and talking about history and shit and I was hoping Destiny would bring up Budapest agreement and thank god he did.
You warmongers are unbelievable. He brought up history to discuss what happened before. I hope you get drafted.
Considering that Moscow broke Minsk agreements the very same day they were agreed, and that "separatist republics" said they see no reason to follow them and that they want to "reclaim all cities in region to them" - I see no reason why anyone even mentioning those agreements.
*Minx
@@Tavat this made me think he read it on wikipedia in the bathroom beforehand and thought it said "Minks"
Ukraine should have kept their nukes. It’s a shame they listened to the international community and Russia.
Elijah: "I'm not a conservative"
Funniest line of the night 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Why? Everyone who is right wing isn't a conservative. In fact, the republican party itself is mostly moderates. Most of America is center right.
There are people who think Trump was far right because their politics is ignorant. And these are people on the left, who still have the political ideology of teenagers.
This Elijah guy did not answer any questions directly and pivoted, dodged like a pro. The first Q&A question pointed it out perfectly.
I see him in some representative role. He speaks like every politician lmao.
Except every politician is relentlessly pro Ukraine just like you and destiny
Owned
@@cameronpatterson130 L
@@anamorphosis7234 they are flunkies.
@@cameronpatterson130 Thus far I haven't heard a single good reason to be against Ukraine.
When a couple is arguing their neighbor has the right to go in and steal their shit.
Apparently.
I don't always agree with Destiny on everything. But I keep coming back to his debates because apart from times where he is lacking strongly in information or knowledge on a subject, he is very very intellectually honest. I don't even care so much about all the topics Destiny cares about. I simply enjoy hearing someone argue from a basis of intellectual honesty. I'm so tired of how public discourse and debate has become a shouting match of ideological talking points and I wish we could return to more civilized times. While Destiny doesn't always rise above the crowd in shouting matches and the like, at least it's a fresher breath than 90% of the junk out there where people sit stewing in their own echo chambers without any knowledge of how they even came to have the opinions they have.
Same. He can be a little bull headed, but since he's honest it doesn't put me off like other debaters or commentators.
I suppose you can say he is intellectual honest, if he genuinely believes the lies he's been told and arguing for.
@@johnleckieWATP yeah, we all believe silly shit. I can give people a pass if they're curious and have considered opinions.
Well said!
@@johnleckieWATP Yes I think he's one of the few guys out there I've seen who actually does CHANGE his opinion when presented with decent facts. A lot of people will just continue being false when they are too emotionally invested in things and start throwing around words like lies and misinformation etc.
Elijah spends the whole fucking debate spouting Russian talking points as to why their invasion is justified and at the end he just casually goes you know, I'm not defending Russia here, I'm just saying Ukraine is evil because of something I never adressed in the whole debate. Also, the tankies in chat were something else lol
Would you prefer he gave Indian talking points or perhaps French instead?
@@dickiesdocos yeah lol when you support something, you are going to use talking points that support that thing....
@@dickiesdocos How are you attacking my word choice while having a fly shitting on your head?
I like how warmongers refuse to consider the perspective of countries they label as the enemy.
@@lolfemfaillol3933 In Russia's case, it has been considered and it has been found unjustifiable. Literally the whole world agrees on that you can google the UN votes. The pro-Russia side is the one who doesn't give a single fuck about Ukraine's perspective and they just go in plundering land like a bunch of apes.
I am admittedly beset by thirst for content. Thank you for saliently ameliorating my egregious hunger.
exquisite.
I feel like I've beset him, intellectually
Vaush real name is Daniel?
dork
you used like half those words incorrectly
this was a good showing from destiny rhetorically, but i think the conversation was kinda stunted by the fact that Elijah kept rambling and evading, but also that Destiny didn't specifically address or pin Elijah on what Ukraine "being evil" really meant. It was clear Elijah would never have died on the Russia is good hill, but I think he was basically saying that Ukraine is ultimately responsible for being invaded by not respecting Russia's bad interests, by attempting to westernize. While Destiny briefly mentioned towards the end that there was no course of action that would've stopped russia from invading, and westernizing was their only shot at putting up a fight, I think this could've been the final nail in the coffin for him to really just destroy Elijah's whole premise
Fundamentally the premise of this debate is kind of stupid IMO..."Ukraine is evil." As usual Destiny showed he can quickly master a subject and considering he is from the Blaze, Elijah had greater knowledge than expected even if his arguments are ultimately unconvincing. But it would have been far more interesting and useful to hear a debate over what should be done now.
Says he doesn’t support putins invasion, spends the next 2 hours trying to justify it 😂
Literally so what
Try nuance
@Dapper Pig you don't even know what justify means, kevin
He keeps mentioning "Borderland" as if Ukraine should not be a sovereign country.
If it means region or state, why doesn't he use "Ukraine" instead of "borderland". And I don't recall us calling Texas a borderland or boundary or something like that. We don't demean Texas as a thin stretch of land that only borders.
@@TimPortantno yeah, but what does the word, "Texas" means
“Minks” are endangered weasels. “Minsk” is the capital city of Belarus.
Just thought I’d point that out.
You cannot bring up Putin's words as an argument, Elijah, and then say you don't trust him.
I cant listen to that mf talk, can you give me the time mark of the video?
Ending statement - can you choose a side? Reply - I'm not interested in civil wars. Wow, that's a position, so this guy still sees war between Russia and Ukraine as civil, so in fact he still recognises that Russia has right to see Ukraine as its territory. what a slip. And all this oh I'm sorry for people of Ukraine is just a BS.
ikr. comrade Ellijah came out like the winter soldier with that comment
Yo destiny, keep up the in person stuff.
The level of professionalism from your opposition is WAY better than anything online.
They can let you breath a bit and say your points.
If the moderator or someone took notes on the conversation. Might help the looping, or can clearly show which points were refuted and which ones werent
Except it doesn’t people are just as bad faith irl as they are online.
@@peewee130946 hmmm
The downside is that people will go on 5-10 minute rants without letting you get the word in, because in in-person debates, interrupting/cutting someone is seen as much more rude and people will take advantage of the "politeness" of debating etiquette
@@jamesburgess2k yah the moderator should step in morr
I'm 40 minutes in and confused why there's even another person ("moderator") on stage? They've said nothing and had no impact on the conversation even when the other dude was speaking for literally 5 minutes at a time uninterrupted. Nothing against the guy and I still prefer the live stuff but I just don't know why you'd have someone say they're the moderator and then do no moderating. It seems worse than having no one up there.
edit: gets even worse at 50:00
I feel like this would have been far more entertaining if each person was allowed to bring 1 prop, and Destiny could have brought a piano.
Lol
What no pizza?
"Ever since I was a child, Ive thought NATO was a waste of money" was my favorite line of the night.
It just proves that he never grew up and learned anything new...
I remember being an 8 year old and playing with my Action Man tank and thinking "nato is a waste of money"
That’s “America First” for u. Loving America yet hate a country that wants to share values with the US
Nato is evil. The only people that benefit from Nato are its civilians. Every other Country gets the blunt force.
I like how at the very end of the debate Elijah was basically like, "No, actually I don't even believe my side of the debate topic because I didn't choose it" after Destiny thoroughly destroyed his positions.
Except it's not about sides, it's not black-and-white.
@@manavein8870shush kid
@@vishg5148 no u
I'm truly glad with Steven here. The things this other guy says are insane. he doesn't understand the concept of sovereignty.
A country that can't defend its boarders and cant sustain itsself isn't sovereign.
Ukraine technically gave up sovereignty over the eastern regions when they decided to exempt them from elections through unfair means.
so much like destiny you completely ignored everything Elijah said and pretended he was saying something completely different. Thanks for making it clear that much like destiny you look at the world the same way a twelve-year-old does.
@Dapper Pig Oh, are those US territories now? I hadn't heard.
@@reasonablyargued9003 they were indeed destroyed by US
Did he seriously say a defensive war can’t include attacks into the invading nation to hurt their capabilities to continue the invasion?
Deadass, he made it seem like any attacks on Russian soil somehow invalidate Ukraines right to defend itself, as if there are no legitimate military targets over the border. It’s not as if Ukraine is taking Russian
It’s very funny the way he spoke about the war and Ukraine but kept saying he doesn’t support Putin or Russia’s actions.
Tbf he said that ukraine attacking russian territory is an escalation
Which is just fucking stupid because both sides are at war
I am Ukrainian and I WISH I was there to say whats wrong and whats right about our government, and express the real thoughts about war. With no doubt, unfortunately IT IS a GENOCIDE, or give another name to the situation where about 100 000 people where brutally murdered, tortured to death only in on city bz other country, educate me if you can. And amount of victims who were obviously killed by russians increases daily, to be clear, I am talking CIVILIANS only. It is hilarious to me how patient Elijah talking about the merciless actions of russia and giving statements like " we don't know the truth yet, we can't judge and blah blah blah". He should face the truth-even after he would still wouldn't be able to accept his injustice. Elijah can't catch the essence because his thoughts are blurred by the desire to establish himself in his rightness. I am devastated.
Russian apologists look insane to any person that has a minimal understanding of what's happening. Instead of being devastated of Elijah and people like him in the West, you should focus on the fact that people like Destiny are a majority (at least in my opinion). But anyway, Слава Україні, сестро, та не засмучуйся занадто всім цим. Люди які купились на русняву пропаганду є і закордоном, на жаль.
So... England can invade the US? I mean... Americans speak largely english... and 300 years ago...you know...
So, USA? Are you ready to return to the mother nation? I mean, this Elijah guy convince me.
More than 80% of US Americans have Anglo-Saxon ancestry, and 95% speak English. It's really shameful that Great Britain just sits idly by instead of bringing North America back into the Kingdom.
THE UNITED WILL BE DIVIDED!
No but seriously it would be funny if we did the split thing and people were just like ok this half is just a bunch of independent states and the rest of the united area just gets reunited with England.... but wait those individual states use to be part of old America... I guess the big new united state can just reabsorb the now individual states through war 1 by 1.
I understand the point you are making with your hypothetical analogy, but that would never happen, and if it did the US would completely destroy England.
@@Cosmlc1022 Oh... Come on... You really would risk nuclear war with Britain?! Really?!
Be reasonnable. ^^
(no but seriously, defending Russia for this invasion is an HORRIBLE ARGUMENT.)
@@ThomasSMuhn Totally. I would also say that Britain was also part of the Roman empire...at least the south part. So , Italie should now rule over Britain AND the US AND all Europe when you think about it.
Elijah has grifted so hard and so obviously on the Ukraine issue just to spite the mainstream media that it calls into question every other position he's ever held. Quite sad.
His positions have always been a joke. He's a comedian who brags about not paying attention in classes, doing drugs, etc and also claims that education is leftist indoctrination... while simultaneously complaining that American education is being invaded by yellow people who supposedly don't actually take education seriously enough.
He does not have serious, rational positions. He has emotional ones like, "I hate leftists", "I'm scared of non-whites", "I'm tired of my race (white people) being targeted by those nasty 'woke' people. Make it stop."
His position is simply that the situation could have been handled more diplomatically and that it seems ukraine was pushing for war. Honestly it does seem that they completely destroyed the nation instead of making some compromise with the threat on their border.
Translation for any right wingers who don't speak lefty cultist, "Elijah holds an opinion that dissents from the objective of the hivemind. He'll need to be Epsteined."
@@asw654 you have literally lied nuclear family is something he supports theirs nothing wrong with that and teaching kids bullshit sexuality at prepubescent ages is wrong and immoral behavior that is a real position and is a hill I will die on
The only people who think this debate was remotely a good look for destiny are people who are fans of destiny and don't really care about the issues, the entire debate was Elijah making points about how from a pragmatic standpoint here's what needs to be done, and the entire time destiny just turned around ignored what Elijah actually said and responded to a point that Elijah never made. This was a truly embarrassing showing for destiny, it really demonstrates just how complacent he has become from his lazy streaming style.
Elijah never answered a single question and all he did is justifying why powerful countries should have right to take territories. And that "if Russia disagrees with all contracts and world agreements, it is fine" is even more stupid. So if everyone will just act as they please - then world will be just a chaos.
Well, everyone does act as they desire, and these pro Russia guys just don't like that countries desired to join NATO and desire to send weapons to Ukraine.
It's astonishing how much he can talk while not using his brain at all.
He does sounds with his mouth thou xD
The US seems to get away with it without impunity seeing they aren’t a member of the international criminal court, and not one single US citizens been charged. Yet Russia is part of resident court, but America is the good guys? The people who reject international law. And we all damn well know why that is, every President the last 40 years would be hung if they adhered to international law. Putin doesn’t even come to a half measure of the death and destruction of the last 4 Presidents let alone just bush or Obama. Funny how America can illegally intervene in other countries with impunity but Russia can’t? Even when Russia has far closer of a tie to this conflict than America ever has in any of its wars since WORLD WAR 2. Was Libya lore justifiable? What about Syria? Somalia? Or the ongoing conflict in Yemen with a far greater death toll of 377,000 and counting? Does Iraq both times ring a bell? A war based on completely made up excuses both times… or Afghanistan? A war completely exposed and blown apart in the afghan papers. This list can keep going and going. To try to pretend Ukraine is uniquely evil is entirely delusional, and I doubt any of you decrying the conflict even have a cursory knowledge in what started it to begin with and why it’s escalated to this point. It’s not this stupidly moronic view of one guy good and one guy bad, if you’d like I can easily go on and expose the horrible things Ukraine has done these previous 8 years. Both sides are horrible.
Echo chamber the world is already chaos.
Elijah with the Kobe Bryant levels of pivots. Still got his shit pushed in.
If Destiny had any less practice debating, he would have got his ankles took with all those pivots. Fucking exhausting
This is a wild sentence.
Honestly, he is more like Hakim the Dream. Hitting them with that Dream Shake
I guess you could say he _crashed and burned_ ?
I'm done.
May Allah bless Mr. August, great timing on the upload so I can procrastinate at work and learn from our fearless leader what opinions I should have
Inshallah brothers
Masha allah! Astaghfirullah!
Inshallah my brother. August has saved us
I am from Georgia it's 20% of is occupied by Russia and it amazes me how so many americans don't appreciate what kind of country they have. It is not perfect but it's best what we have. With out US whole world is doomed. You think that american government is evil? you even can't comprehend such little evil is it compare to Russia
Destiny came to debate, Elijah came to role play as a history professor
A history of computer science professor that suddenly had to sub and has no clue what he's talking about but read a pop history book once...
Jesus christ guys. Stop saying Minks agreement. It's Minsk! This Elijah fellow is just a living Gish Gallop. There might even be some good points in there but he just drones on and on.
Holy fuck I don't remember ever skipping someone talking in a debate but the ten minute speeches from Elijah broke me
watch at 2x speed... though elijah's opening statement even forced me to skip at 2x speed lolol XD
I watch everything in 2 x speed and I swear that guy made me check if it was still doubled cause it droned on for so long
My TH-cam being set to Minute long skips are because of people like him, and ads
As a right winger it baffles me that ppl on the right bash the US like this guy did......7 yrs ago it would be unthinkable for a right winger to openly bash the US that way.
So you expect them to be like China?
I found it bizarre as well. Either his politics are so complex to be put into a category or his mental gymnastics have got him completely twisted.
Right wingers absorbed other groups in the last 7 years so in a way it makes sense. Hell right wingers who were anti war were pretty rare at one point.
Is it a possibility that our very own
US government just may actually be the bad guy?
True he is a weird guy he doesn’t think he’s a conservative so what is he a centrist
"Destiny you didn't answer my question. My question was: Ukraine is evil..."
Destinys existential crisis stare at 1:51:06 is my face everytime Elijah rambled.
"im not defending putin, just justifying" :|
Same energy as Amber Heards “I did not punch you, I hit you”
Elijah can only repeat his same argument in different words. He literally cannot contend with the fact that 1. Russia themselves recognized Ukraine 2. The reason for the language speaking in the Donetsk and Luhansk is because of a genocide prior 3. There are already NATO threats securely in place, Ukraine is not a strategic point for NATO like he suggests.
He can only bring up U.S meddling, constantly posing it as a one sided warfare in which we are over playing our hand, meanwhile ignoring the fact that Russian financed politicians in Ukraine got to the highest levels of office in the state, and the only reason why he got ousted was because the people there overwhelming reject Russian authoritarianism.
He says this all with the history of Crimea and the evidence at his hands, just one of the bigger grifting sudo intellectual I've seen so far. Him and James Lindsay lmao.
Your second point isn’t true, Russian speakers aren’t in the eastern part because of a genocide, they’ve been there before Stalin, the number of Russian speakers settling in Ukraine kept growing since the 17 century. To say that the Russians speakers where shipped to Eastern Ukraine because of the genocide is false.
I would love for you to link me a source that claims it happened.
He’s doing a talking points tree, over and over.
@@DJTUNE1770 3 million Ukrainians died to mismanagement , and then the Soviet’s moved in Russians . Most places they depopulated ethnic groups to Siberia . If you are ignorant of thst history, might want to read a bit about that. Then look at the 490 gulags and the sort of systems they ran there. Torture camps .
@@DJTUNE1770 Regardless, those Russians were placed there by the state in order to solidify their claim on the land.
@@Yor_gamma_ix_bae source? Because that’s false. To be clear, I need a source that claims Russian speakers were shipped to Eastern part of Ukraine due to the famine or any reason
Secondly, Soviet’s were comprised of more then Russians, you do know there’s other nationalities within the soviets right ? But your only naming Russians. And Stalin was from Georgia, so stop blaming modern day Russian for what he did
This guy's "arguments" were a mile wide and 1/2 an inch deep. He said a lot of words without making much of a point and he didn't engage with nearly anything Destiny said.
Furthermore, how does Destiny keep debating people like this?
Dude says he respects Ukrainian rights to defend themselves but what he is arguing and believes would destroy everything have
32:12 to 33:00 Watching Elijah dodging the question and see the reaction of the audience is just...priceless.
He managed to talk for 4 minutes but didn't answer the question.
>Destiny asks if Mexico has any justification to invade US
>Elijah: "So the USSR....."
@@TugaThings destiny never mentioned Mexico in the 32:12 to 33:00
@@austindecker7643 yeah he did
@@scharlatan8384 he never said Mexico I didn’t hear it I only heard “is a country justified to invade another country in a civil war?”
What is even the point of the debate? It's called "Ukraine is evil," but I didn't hear any arguments about that. All I hear are the typical weak caveats and arguments about why Russia is justified, but at the same time he keeps saying he doesn't think Russia is justified? Dude needs to sort out his priorities.
I got the same thing. He made justifications for Russia, then says he isn’t justifying Russia and saying that Ukraine is evil, but didn’t give any point for how Ukraine is evil.
I’m dumbfounded at the Ukraine debates. The only question that matters is whether or not you believe Russia violated Ukrainian sovereignty by launching a full scale invasion of all of Ukraine, which they did. All these people who defend Russia’s actions are trying to muddy the waters by hurling a hundred different things that have no relevance to the overall question in an attempt to complicate things. This entire issue comes down to, do you think Russia is wrong for launching a FULL SCALE GROUND WAR in Ukraine. The answer is yes, because they literally invaded Ukraine 😂
There’s actually one more question there: should we help and to what extent? However I feel like that one is easy given the confluence of moral, economic, and geopolitical circumstances. If this was like I dunno Russia invading Mongolia I can’t help but think there would be a less sanctions and no military aid.
@@OpiatesAndTits Well at what point is association a factor. Is selling the majority of the weapons and missiles used in Yemen to the saudis that bomb civilians and children in Yemen to this day a US atrocity or Saudi atrocity, given that the US fully knows it is used to bomb civilians and it has been done so for the last 8 years, yet still 30% of arms manufactured in the states are sold to the yemen war every year, its probably a bit less now due to Ukraine. The thing is war happens all the time in the middle east region that is backed by the west and east, governments are installed also by either side as much as we dont want to admit them. But no one really gave a shit for syria, palestine/israel or even the Donbas civil war before it, and all of a sudden Russia invades someone and they are the worst and everyone is a expert on Putin being bad. Well, he is wrong for invading, but we need to have at least the modicum of acknowledgement of the things that everyone else does and put it on the same pedestal, or its just selective outrage to feed our moral egos of "freedom and democracy".
@@OpiatesAndTits yes that’s obviously an easy question. Ukraine wants NATO support --> therefor offer NATO support.
They are just devoted to the counter narrative because it makes them feel smart and special.
@@OpiatesAndTits I hate this question because most of the time there is underlying ignorance there... How much you should help your enemy? How much you should help someone who doesn't like you? How much you should help random person? How much you should help colleague? How much you should help someone who likes you? How much you should help your friends? The difference is clear and obvious even if you can't clearly answer these questions. Relationship is the pillar for such thing, and only after answering such questions we can go further and take into account simple business and cold blooded conspiratorial things.
This was a very irritating debate to sit through when it was live at some points
I think Elijah looks are Russia as a force of nature.
That the Ukrainian government is being evil for exposing the people to this natural catastrophe that is Russia.
This is a common point.
It is the "boys will be boys" excuses combined with victim blaming.
They think that there is no point in blaming Russia.
Because Russia will always be Russia.
Just as they think that USA will always be USA.
This perspective is called "realism", which is dumb.
It is a unnuanced view of reality.
Where everything is about exploiting others.
That all countries work to further their own best interest no matter what.
The believers in "realism" usually have this attitude to imperialism as part of human nature and not worth fighting.
Since fighting it will only lead to more deaths or what ever.
It has a strong relation with fascism.
Fascism being the idea that weak nations will be outcompeted by the strong ones.
A kind of national darwinism.
When people believe in realism they tend to either become fascist or end up excusing fascists.
Just like this guy is excusing Russian fascism by putting the blame on Ukraine for not bending over to Russia.
It is a self fulfilling prophecy.
If everyone believes none can be trusted then none can be trusted.
When facing fascism people will die.
I mean this guys view on geopolitics would blame the Soviet Union for fighting against the Nazis.
Would blame the Soviet Union, Britain, and USA for all the deaths caused by the war.
Ignoring that some causes are worth fighting for.
I'm sorry he's not simplistic enough for you.
@@lolfemfaillol3933 lol youre funny
Elijah is such a spineless weasel, Im stunned he even agreed to this debate
free russia
what is the sp8neless actions that elijah has taken? just curious what you are referring to. not trying to be rude just curious.
@@pinxxpose It's pretty spineless to spend two hours regurgitating russian propaganda/justifying the invasion, while continuously repeating that you "aren't trying to defend putin". No balls. Have the guts to say what you mean, instead of pretending like what you're saying isn't ACTUALLY what you're saying.
@@SNESpool Based on the over whelping popularity of supporting Ukraine, it actually takes some real balls so speaks against the societal narrative. Does mean I agree with him, but it's definitely not spineless. Quite the opposite.
@@SNESpool He started actual facts I mean have you even research the Ukraine like their pro Nazi stances look up the Neo Nazi regiments in the Ukraine or it's leader being photographed holding up Nazi flags. How about Ukraine citizens using the symble of the black son. Or that after getting into power the Ukrain leader imprisoned the leader of the party that came second to him in the election and closed down TV stations who did not support him in the election. Or recently made 9 political parties illegal and they were not even pro Russia.
GODSTINY Debate
@Dapper Pig The US is annexing parts of Syria?
“I’m not here to debate morality” the title of the debate is all about morality “I don’t think Ukraine is in our best interest” bruh Europe/NATO is in our best interest and our reputation is on the line we can’t let countries be deserted and fight on there own at least arms are needed this guy sits on the fence like no other
NATO did a similar thing with Kosovo for the same reasons. NATO didnt have a ground invasion, they just did airstrikes for 78 days until they surrendered. The media just presented that one with rose tinted glasses that's all.
@@mrlacksoriginality4877 true and the people are happy it happened as the ongoing fighting could’ve lead to a lot more deaths combined on both sides which was a bad possibility
Powned
@@Channel-23s how do you support the illegal war nato waged against serbia but don't support what russia is doing in Ukraine rn?
@@mrlacksoriginality4877 they had UN mandate and there was a legitimate genocide happening, unlike in ukraine where only one is genociding is russia.
Does anybody else literally just not know what the fuck elijahs argument is? Can someone steel man it in the comments because hes really not saying anything at all
West bad
@@frostbite3318 Globalism bad, Ukraine fake
By best guess would be: US bad, NATO bad, EU bad, Ukraine bad, Russia bad, but Russia has reasons to invade.
Other than this I have no idea.
@@Zripas pretty much lol. Also he equates Ukrainians getting out of the URSS empire that commited genocide against their people(aka holodomor) to the civil war in Donbass region started and suported by the Kremlin regime. What a turd
Ah yes, the Minx agreements
He talks about the east and the west parts as if they are equivalent, which they aren't. The "separatists" were holding a very tiny part of Ukraine and in number were less then 1 percent, I'm not including people living there, cause they didn't have a choice.
Yes plus a lot of people don't realise that "pro Russian" never meant "pro Russian invasion".
In the Ukrainian political landscape, the "pro Russian" faction favoured closer relations with Russia, not Russian annexation of their country. Many of them turned on Russia after Crimea was seized and many more when the invasion started
This guy doesn't care about the morality status of Ukraine. He's simply a victim of the misguided belief that a nuanced counter position makes your politics automatically interesting and makes you look smart.
I don't know how you can claim to know what the motivation is behind this guy stating that he believes Ukraine is evil for lying to their people about the viability of joining with the West. Just because you disagree doesn't mean he's being disingenuous.
@@wastedninjadude you don't know how I can say that? I watched the full video. However, it becomes pretty clear within the first 10-15 minutes if you can't be arsed listening to all of the babbling. I wouldn't remotely blame you for that.
@@shanustheanus I see how you can SAY it but my point is that it's a baseless claim. It would be more productive if you dealt with the argument rather than speculate on someone's psychology which you can't possibly know.
@@wastedninjadude oh I see. You're one of these. You don't like context and argue in bad faith. I didn't just say why its physically possible for me to say a thing. You're being dishonest, exactly like the dude from the video. No wonder you're trying to white Knight so fucking hard. You see yourself in him.
This is Curtis Yarvins point about debate circles, and helped me see that about the online-cons. Cyber-cons if you will
This is like an archetype on here. Some right debater comes on gets opening statements and proceeds to rant about 20 minutes trying to cover as many bases as possible. It’s just ridiculous, hasn’t anyone called them out on this before or do they even realize it?
The real problem is that Destiny asked the moderator if there would be opening statements and he said no. It kinda looked like one side didn't prepare or wasn't as knowledgeable, at least in the beginning.
its not just the right, its also a left thing
It's called a gish gallop. It takes significantly more time to debunk bogus arguments and assertions. The strategy usually goes like- throw out as many bogus arguments and assertions as possible, hopefully enough that your interlocutor literally doesn't have the time to address all of them. Declare victory because your interlocutor didn't refute or address a bunch of your points.
Pundits like Shapiro have heavily popularized the gish gallop on the right.
@@88mphDrBrown that shit is so damn annoying having to listen to someone spew out a bunch of bs they know is bs, completely taking the spot light off of real issues and debate.
Looking at the Napoleonic Wars for modern geopolitics KEKW
I actually like Elijah most of the time, but he very clearly is justifying Russia's actions during this entire debate. He keeps calling Ukraine evil because they are fighting back, while saying it's not REALLY about fighting or Russia. In his eyes, the only way for Ukraine to NOT be evil is to give up their sovereignty and territory to Russia. BUT Russia isn't justified. it makes not sense.
Ukraine is just as evil as Russia. In the East/Crimea they just got sick of their shit.
Chatters in stream were saying Destiny should have interrupted more, but I disagree. Letting him ramble the same point, not answering a question, ect... The audience understood how silly it was, so I think anyone who watches it will also. Sometimes that works, dont stop your 'enemy' when hes making a mistake.
True, he tripped himself up so bad with his insane conspiracies and instant contradictions to his own argument.
@@rynethorup5690 actual strategy, let them talk when they want to be interrupted, let them eloborate on theyre own bad points
how does Destiny not have a heart attack or stroke when debating some of these people?
I hope he does
Imagine being a Ukrainian listening to these western contrarians telling them to just capitulate to Russian demands, because peace lol.
I actually know Ukranians and it's the other way around. I've been told about the Nazis and they actually are fine with Russians coming through.
are you in the west, because i wager most of the non western world basically thinks ukraine should capitulate for peace, and does not particularly side with either party. If anything they side more with russia as they have decent relations with most countries, and everyone has seen NATO at work in Libya and elsewhere
@@emilianosintarias7337 Why are most Eastern European countries a part of NATO then, and where are these big movements in said countries to leave NATO and join the Russian alliance CSTO?
@@sigmen4020 Why would they leave NATO when it's tied to investment, cooperation and integration with Europe and the west? Do they want to align with Russia and get regime-changed or sanctioned?
@@emilianosintarias7337 If NATO is so heavily tied to investment and integration with Europe, why are countries like Finland and Sweden, which are generally seen as western countries, not a part of NATO then? Where do you even get the impression that people Eastern European countries are totally fine with Russia rolling into Ukraine, when there’s even big protests in Russia against the war?
Ukraine is not a puppet and it’s more or less a democracy that is trying to be western forward and move forward rather than be a servant and slave to Russia better to go for trades with EU than Russia as for the attacks over the border that’s good because hospitals and schools were bombed by Russia and war crimes committed the reason why NATO wasn’t broken up was because why would Europe break up a alliance on a possibility that a oppressive Russia wouldn’t come soon but as long as it’s not a democracy than it’s better United than separated I wonder why former Warsaw Pact countries joined NATO maybe because they knew another dictator would take power or what could happen again
Do you think all of these "democracies" had referendums on the subject of joining nato, so that the people would decide? :D
@@AllerKingLol naw I think it was a choice 1000% better than being under Russia and being hungry tbh it was a no brainer as after they finally got to think and act as independent countries and many many countries instantly joined one of the guidelines of joining is that the country has to have a majority that wants in NATO and it wouldn’t work if 60-70% said no to membership it’d be weird because that’s how the Warsaw Pact worked members forced to join
They literally banned opposition parties.
Lets not act like we understand ukraine. The place has always been a shitshow.
@@Channel-23s my friend.. in some countries there was no choice.. the state decided without asking the people
Anytime someone says "The truth of the matter" they're about to lie.
That is an idiotic statement.
This dude said more to prove Russia is evil, yet he calls Ukraine evil.
This argument about Russia taking the eastern regions TOTALLY DISREGARDS the fact that Russia sent an armored column straight towards Kyiv - they tried to take the damn capital! I don't know why Destiny didn't pressure this point - it totally invalidates almost everything this guy is saying about the East/West "divide"
Also...about 2014. Why everyone is speaking like people have no own agency?
Why no one want to answer simple question: "President want to cancel elections and rule forever, President is banning protests, President is pressuring free speech and in general want to become dictator. So what people should do?"
I'm starting to think Russian "propaganda" was actually very effective because the amount of people that just so happened to know about this particular region in granular detail sure do line up with the Russian narrative 90% of the time
If it comes from Russia its bad. Russias framing of any and every topic is inherently propoganda, dishonest, and bad.
How are those people always legitimizing the invasion into the ukraine by saying "donbass voted to join russia so russia can take it"?
Putting aside the fact that this is not how the sovereignty of countries work, as far as i know, the whole coastal region and the northern border territory of ukraine did not call for russia to come, still they are there slaugthering the citizens of Mariupol, making the point it would be a mission to help russian people in the ukraine an obvious lie to justify the war.
20:42 this was the verbal equivalent of a needlessly complex drum fill that loses the band
I really think a dual stopwatch would be a great prop for when these ramblers start saying "let me finish" after talking 4x as much so you can just show the rambling empirically.
That would give Steven an outrageous advantage considering that he always talks at 1.5x speed. Very few opponents exist that can contest that.
By 21 min I started believing this man on the left loved Russia
Whenever Elijah was asked about the similarities in conflicts between Russia and Ukraine and China and Taiwan during the Q&A, he said they aren't the same because there's no civil war happening in Taiwan. Funnily enough, the Chinese Civil War is still technicality ongoing because no peace treaty was ever signed between China and Taiwan.
Wow Steven. It's amazing how much you've learned and understand what's going on in that region currently and historically. I remember you reserving judgement on the situation as it first started because you weren't sure. Now you can argue the facts better than those that are actually living in the conflict.
@@jean-pierretremblay8914 explain why not? I've heard a few ukranians explain the problems in the region and wasn't nearly as clear as Steven presented it. Where was Steven wrong? I'd like to learn.
As Destiny says, if you actually do the most basic research you will be more knowledgeable than 99% of the pundits who speak confidently on the topic.
@@jean-pierretremblay8914 He is because its true
@@jean-pierretremblay8914 you are right.
@@roymarshall_he doesn’t know because he doesn’t recognize people who are more aware of the topic. Listen to Scott Ritter and his covering on the war. Destiny says Russia would lose but it’s the contrary and yet when he is actually challenged by Ryan Dawson he simply has nothing to argue because he knows squat.