I am going to assume this is a legitimate question, and because I get this SAME question collectively on my my channel about 37 times a day, I am going to pin this response...... Why do I not test .380 ACP+P?? BECAUSE IT DOES NOT nor has it EVER existed. Under SAAMI spec, (you know, the official American standard for cartridges) the ONLY +P cartridges that exist, are .38 Special+P, 9x19mm+P, .38 Super+P and .45 ACP+P. That's it. You cannot test something that does not exist. You might ask, why not level the field with .38 Special standard pressure? Because Federal Hydrashok Deep ONLY COMES in a +P variant. These are the only two variants of these calibers that the Federal Hydrashok Deep comes in. Any company putting ".380 ACP+P" on their ammo or a +P on any other cartridge that is not .38 Special+P, 9x19mm+P, .38 Super+P and .45 ACP+P is lying about something.
@GunSam great test. I have the same EZ and have watched all your 380 comparisons. I'm impressed with the results. This would only be a last ditch caliber, as I have others.
@@GunSamThere’s always THAT person. You can’t make everyone happy, just ignore the haters. You’re putting out great data and real world application testing to the public in a format that’s easy to digest and learn. I just watched 5 of your videos and they helped me narrow down the best load for me and my 2” LCR. Just know that 99% of us really appreciate all the time and effort it takes to do these tests.
@@GunSamthey do 100% make +P .380 rounds 🤣just because it isn’t SAAMI spec’d doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. That’s like saying vitamins don’t exist because they aren’t regulated by the ATF. If you do ANY .380 VS .380+P testing you’ll see that there is a difference. It’s not rocket science it’s just ammunition. I know you’re a revolver guy but come on, don’t be dense.
I think the three inch barreled revolver should be considered more often than it is. I don't find that it harms concealability, but it does bring better ballistics. Since velocity is so important to bullet performance, the 3 inch barrel deserves serious attention when thinking about a summer heat carry gun.
My S&W 66-8 has a 2.75" barrel which is close enough. You get an extra round, bigger grip, and much nicer trigger over a J-Frame. But you really do lose pocket carry. You do need an over garment. At least I do. I can only wear it OWB. It does tuck in nicely and it's not too heavy on a proper gun belt. It's perfectly fine in cooler weather. But I would rather just pocket my M&P340. You can forget it's there.
@@brianmoore1164 I've simply had no luck with IWB carry. It's just too uncomfortable for me. We're all built a little differently. The model 60 pro series is quite cool though. That's magnum rated, isn't it?
Yeah the ammo was impressive enough I'd consider buying a browning 1911 in 380. I'd darn sure stick to the hydro shock most other 380 bullet test I've seen are quite inadequate.
Critical defense, Hydra Shock deep, StarFire, golden saber, and Sig V-Crown and Gold Dot are all excellent choices in .380ACP…all expand and penetrate reliably.
The 380 did ok. That surprised me. When I carry a 380 it's likely to be a mag drop unless I get really lucky on the first shot. A very good test. Thanks young fella.
I saw a video this week of a female clerk who shot a large male robber at about 2ft with 2 shots to center mass. He took about 3-4 slow, small, steps and dropped to the ground. Just because its a bit less power than 9mm Luger doesn't mean its not deadly. It was carried by French and Italian police back when it was invented by John Moses Browning around the turn of the century fwiw. Its really not the slouch some people make it out to be. Plus you can see the ammo /bullet tech keeps improving. A 3.5" or longer barrel is really a big help to it and I carry a economical Ruger Security 380 with that size barrel, and 2-15rnd mags. 380 is the same 9mm diameter .355" bullet and the same brass case just 3 mm shorter vs a 9mm Luger. Hopefully something I said helps folks see 380 auto is no 44 mag, but its no slouch either.
I can see why though. Its not a cheap test medium and then add up the ammo costs and you really have a nice bill. Its really good to see Gun Sam do it. Its too bad there is only 2 brand/types of handgun ammunition designed to penetrate it. hydroshok deep and critical duty.
@@PatriotPaulUSAyou can get them at the junkyards around here for basically free if you have the tool to cut them out. They don't charge you for cracked or damaged glass.
Good review. I like the addition of the windshield to the test. I am a fan of Critical Duty, but as stated this is good for sub 4.5" barrel's. I have been carrying Underwood Extreme Defender's in sub Duty Size gun's.
This was a very interesting test and comparison. I was impressed with the .38 Special performance - except in the 25 yard accuracy department. I’d like to guest that you’d be looking at 775-800 fps out of a two inch barrel. Shooting thru auto glass in most cases of self defense outside of law enforcement or military setting is probably not an area where the manufacturers are putting much thought, but I was surprised how the .38 still performed. I’d like to see some other HS Deep .38 Special tests. I have an old three-inch model 60 factory DAO that has always been a decent shooter. Never really carried it, however, because as a BUG, it was a little too much barrel for my mode of dress. I think the reason .380 didn’t catch on in American law enforcement was because finding reliable pistols was the challenge, not to mention .38 Special ammo in any form was cheaper. A Colt or S&W small frame was cheaper and usually always went bang. As a range instructor, I was seeing cops with department issued PPKs for undercover activities as late 2010. The guns weren’t all that reliable and were not that easy to shoot. In terms of reliability, I think the big problem was the lack of know-how at both operator and armorer levels. I can attest that for whatever reason I was never accurate with a PPK beyond 10-15 yards. But yeah, I plan on giving some attention to the HS Deep in .38 Special - see how close to POA it is out of my two and three inch revolvers.
Love your comparisons and shooting; bought an EZ 380 performance center for my wife but surprisingly It’s become among my favorites to shoot, especially after dark with hi viz night sights and performs well with less expensive Fiocchi ammo. Semper Fi🇺🇸
Wow. A .380 that penetrates and expands. You're right on the money with your analysis as always! Thanks for all the testing you do...and i really like the consistent methodology
This is what I carry in my Kimber Ultra Carry 45acp. I bought a box as soon as it came out and fell in love. It’s dead on but about a quarter inch high but it hits hard and expands perfectly. Only thing I carry now. Great ammo.
Thanks to you and Calamity Jane for this test. I will forward this video along to others who carry .380ACP pistols, and .38 Spl revolvers. Even though the .380ACPDeep didn't do too well against the windshield, I was still very impressed. But I'll look to buy some of that .38 Special for my own carry.
That windshield test is brutal for a small caliber like 380. Hopefully none of us will ever need it. The odds are we wont, but its good to have, I know. There are several 380 HP rounds that are great for expansion and depth, but they do not have the barrier defeating capability of Hydrashok and Critical Duty.
When I pocket carry 380 I will use ball ammo or Underwood Extreme Penetrators out of my LCP2. But since I've found IWB at 3:30 with a Clinger Holster with their comfort pad very comfortable I've been carrying my 9mm Shield Plus with its 4" ported barrel & 10 round mag with plain cheap JHP's. Much much better accuracy, dependability, & power.
Speaking of the 3 inch barrel .38 if I remember correctly- Back in the day of Police still carrying revolvers- a Special Unit of the New York Police that did stake outs to end robbery sprees carried pump shot guns & 3 inch .38 revolvers- - their .38 bullets might have been 150 grain soft lead hollow points or 158 grain led semi- wadcutter/hollow point. The 3 inch barrel giving concealment and enough bullet velocity for mushroom effect & penetration. Thanks for the excellent demonstration and clear assessment!
The FBI also used 3" S&W revolvers with 158 gr LSWC HP in a +P "the FBI Load". I forget the revolver's model but it was similar to the 10 but 3" barrel.
@@GunSamThere is a model 36..5 shot..3" heavy bbl. I've heard that it was popular with sheriff's, though I'd imagine their deputies would've carried a larger service size.
In the writings by Jim Cirillo (RIP) that i have seen, he carried his primary 4" Model 10 in a shoulder holster, and his 2" on his belt. He often found himself going for his 2" because it cleared leather fast from the strong side. His ammo was a fairly soft "cup point" (hollow nosed) wadcutter handload. His partner used the same bullet style in his 45 Gold Cup for the first round hand cycled into the chamber, backed up with ball, since there was no way that wadcutter bullet style would feed (and probably still wouldn't in today's guns). They also preferred the M1 Carbine to a shotgun as it turned out (and i think this was with ball ammo)- somewhat lighter, much less recoil, and one bullet at a time rather than a spread of projectiles. That is probably a good idea in a crowded city.
So glad you got to this one. Man I think this round is perfect for both of these calibers. Makes the 380 and 38 snubby a great option now. I really think k this outshines the Critical Defense 38special.
Our Lincoln County sheriff (Billy the kid) notoriety wore a business suit and carried a .38 S&W on his waist band. He kept his badge in his dress coat so he could fling it open. When he was going to his car in the morning he shot a mountain lion that wa 15:15 s in a tree by the carport. I remember him coming to the back door and talk to my dad about the recent church bombings in the south.
Gun Sam's the best tester on TH-cam...Outside of Official 4 layer REAL GEL results for some LE loads, Gun Sam's REAL WORLD TESTS results are the best results to bet your life on.
Haha; I was just wondering about that .38 load. I saw a vid a few days ago of a guy testing the 9mm 124 gr hydrashock deep along with speer gd's & federal hst's. He put them through denim into gel, glass & a steel plate. The hd performed the best. Thanks for a gr8 vid! Oh, btw, i watched your vid where you put some of your .38 handloads through some frying pans & a stack of magazines. I was really impressed! Those .38's performed crazy good!
Others have said it before, but with the quality of your content you really should have a million subs. As for these rounds, I'd still like more penetration, but the consistency of the .38 Deep across the board was impressive.
I bought a box of .45 acp and it went with a Star I sold. The pistol was stolen from him and they were convicted of the theft. Him and his wife wouldn't tell me who stole it. It must have been an acquaintance of theirs. Probably a juvenile.
It very hard to find ammo. I gave up looking for deep in 380. Forget about the 50 pc "tactical" boxes too. I did just get a couple 50pc boxes of Hydrashok "Tactical Deep" 9mm . Its not cheap ammo, but it is one of the 2 best for defeating barriers. I don't know of any others, except Hornady's Critical Duty" that is core locked, harder lead, etc. for barrier defeating. There may be 1, I just haven't heard of any others. Sadly Federal premiums Hydrashok rounds aren't even nickel plated anymore. Niether is Hornady's Critical Series. They both have a disclaimer saying that until they can get Nickel for their platers to be able to plate their cases, they wont be including it in their premium defensive ammo. But their is no "supply chain crisis" they tell us. Rare earth minerals mainly come from China these days. They own almost 75% of the rare earth mines in the world.
Just have to look online. I was looking at the ammo that is on sale on Midway USA yesterday and I noticed a handful of HST that was on sale and I saw some of the Hydrashock Deep too but I think it was .45 ACP. If you look around there, SGAmmo, AIM and some other sites eventually you will find it. I buy most of mine at local shops and gun shows but I do buy some online too mostly when I find a good sale. Every now and then I get some really good deals on Midway and AIM especially when AIM gets LE trade in ammo. Found some crazy deals at Academy and Field and Stream too. I guess F&S doesn't exist anymore think they are all Sportsman's Warehouse now but at both stores I have found really good deals randomly. Way to late now but when Walmart quit selling handgun ammo and .223/5.56, 7.62x39 I bought a lot of ammo really cheap. A whole lot of it was PDX1 for $10 or so a box.
Great video. I think it certainly showcases the capability of that ammo. I also believe the .380 actually needs the longer barrel to deliver that performance when compared to the popular 2.75” pocket carry models. That’s in part what makes it a “threshold” caliber. You can really make it work for you but you need to make sure the barrel length is correct. That takes you to a handgun size that is within a few decimal places of a 9mm but is softer shooting.
I don't own a .380 at the present time , but if I did , I would surely load it with those Hydra-Shok deeps . I personally think that the .38 special is the superior cartridge when compared to the .380 . It can push heavier rounds around the same velocity , seemed to do better with the hard barrier , and ammo selection is greater . I would choose a .38 over a .380 any/every time . Love the video........well done !
With .380acp I am more concerned wit not having enough penetration, more that expansion. The .380acp ammunition that I recently switched to is: Underwood 380 ACP 68GR. Xtreme Defender Platinum Edition Solid Monolithic Self Defense Ammunition.
thanks for the test, Sam. I took my chrono to the range yesterday (testing 38 Super hand loads). Just for giggles, I ran 10 of the 38+P HS Deep. I got 863 average out of a S&W Model 60, 3 inch. I could blame the lower average fps on different altitude and temperature (it was frigging hot!), or I could just admit your Taurus is a better gun than my Smith. And, cue the Trolls....
Interestingly enough, I have noticed over the years with a few different Taurus revolvers that their velocity AND accuracy is often better than other brands. They make good barrels, they just need to work on their internals. If they went the route of SARUSA and used S&W's internals rather than their weird S&W/Ruger/Charter hybrid type action, they would have a much better revolver.
@@GunSam IHMO, best thing about a Taurus: no ILS, no Internal Lock System, no effing Hilary Hole. ah, but that's another topic. I wonder if you could devise a test that would PROVE to S&W that the ILS ruins accuracy or velocity or durability. Anything to convince management to stop doing that to their guns. Yeah, not your problem. Nevermind.
@@pecosjane Taurus does, at least in some of their revolvers, have a lock system. If I recall, my 605 has a Hillary Hole on the hammer itself, but the 856 does not. I don't think those locks would change anything in the action as long as they were unlocked.
Thanks for the video! I used to carry, and still have some of the Federal HST 130gr 38Spl +P in my inventory, however that had since been discontinued... so I'm now looking at my other 38 Spl defensive round options.
I would really liked to have seen how a .38 snubby did in this test. That Hydra Shock Deep +p seems to be right on the edge of being able to perform out of a 2" barrel. I would love to see you put it up against Critical Defense 110 gr +p through different barrel lengths. I know the Critical Defense will expand from a snubby, seems like the HS Deep is a little iffy.
Thanks for a good test, Sam. I’ll look into that Hydrashok Deep for my old PPK “bathrobe pocket gun.” Gotta maintain fire superiority with those marauding raccoons.😉
Thanks for testing these rounds Sam! Looks like a viable round especially for .380 who works as an alternative to the FMJ. Very good in .38 Spl. ♠️🎩🎯🎱🇺🇲🏁🇺🇦🔱🌻🏵️💮🌸🌼🌺🏴☠️🏹
If one considers that shooting through a windshield from the OUTSIDE is basically a headshot, penetrating the fiberboard might be sufficient to stop the attacker. As for shooting through the windshield from the inside, the muzzle should be closer to the glass and firing for effect might take multiple shots as the first may be inneffective due to deformation & deflection. The differences in setback of the bullets in the gel was an interesting phenomenon.
The FBI protocol calls for 2 different exact angles to the glass, when it is fired. (a compound angle basically) They also have to shoot thru 2 sheets of 20 gauge steel 3" apart to simulate a car door, a drywall wall of 2 sheets 3.5" apart, a sheet of 5/8" plywood. Shoot thru each of those, then thru a 18" airspace, then thru the clothing and gel barrier! They must achieve 12" of penetration in each test in the gel, but no more than 18". Its quite a test.
@@PatriotPaulUSA Exact angles for a test doesn't = real world performance, but it does make the test fair to the contestants(ammo mfgs.). My stating that shooting at someone through a windshield is basically attempting a headshot stands, as well that a bullet in Sam's windshield test that makes it through his fiberboard and preceeding gel might be a fight stopper on a human's noggin. The main difference between civilian and police gunfights is that the civilian only needs to get out of the pickle jar, whereas the police are obligated to apprehend the aggressor(s).
Great Video I personally don’t plan on jumping infront of a car moving at me at 30+ miles per hour double tapping the driver and rolling out of the way in exactly 3 seconds or less. Note- A dead driver will not stop a car moving at you. Hitting the wind shield will not pick up a car and hurl it backwards onto its back even if you use a 45.
At last, a well performing 380 round. I am not a 380 advocate, but a nedium size 380 can be a good choice for some with low hand strength, recoil sensitivity, etc. Guns like your M&P EZ, the Beretta 84, or the recent Briwning 1911 are fairly easy to shoot, and the longer barrels help the ballistics. The 38 did well for a medium weight bullet. Another solid choice. Good choice on the 3" revolver too. I wish more companies made 3" revolvers. The only one i have is a Rossi 720 44 Spl, which is a nice little sleeper. But that is another story. Great test
Very interesting. Thank you. I use 99 gr Federal HST "Micro" when I carry a .380. This appears to be better. Do you have a smaller gun you can test it in? 2-3/4" or 3" barrel? There is an awful lot people carrying Ruger LCPs and S&W M&P .380 Bodyguards out there.
I still like the Hydrashock Deep Federal for 380 but it has been toned down since the great powder shortage of the last 3 yrs. Its now rated at 975FPS and was 1030 FPS before.
Great test! Would you carry a 38 in 3"? My Airweight is a joy at 1-7/8" but at 3 it'll be a 357 for me. 38 in a snub suffers if less so the same trouble as 380- either expands with short penetration or penetrates with no expansion. There are only a few loads I'd carry in a 38 snub or 380 mouse. I'd like to see the 357 snub vs 9mm 4" test with 124/125 grain into gel. Those two should be close in velocity and in ease of carry. I'm remembering some destroyed bologna.
Hey Gun Sam I seen a show I think the best round for your 38 is Barnes Tacxp either weight they come in. I seen some data on that combo I think it’s what you want, you can get it right from Barnes or Corbon DPX uses them or Buffalo Barnes from Buffalo bore
I saw those Barnes Tac XP rounds also. The solid copper rounds like G9 Defense or Underwoods LeHigh Defense Extreme series penetrate glass much better tho. I also saw that the hollowpoint style copper rounds can expand early and stop a projectile very quickly, before its gone 12" or more deep in gel. A solid copper like doesn't have that problem. It uses fluid dynamics, if you watch their commercials. With hollowpoints its all about the caliber size, the loading of them with what powder, and their bullet weight, and getting the Feet Per Second just right. Its that way in every HP bullet. I just purchased some Atomic Ammo that is loaded with Hornady's XTP bullet. It easily outperforms Hornady's Own XTP 380 ammo which is 1000FPS! Atomic Ammo 380acp is 1100FPS (+100fps more.) Hornady's is very marginal in many tests. In the gel tests I have seen, Atomics loading of the XTP bullet is much better in depth, and expansion. It has been proven, right here on U tube. Something to think about. With 380 its a huge range of barrel lengths too. That changes FPS. I have seen a 1/2" more barrel increase speeds up to 100fps. These micro pistols like Rugers LCP with a 2.75" barrel and some are even shorter. They can be especially tricky to load for. What powder works for them, may not as well in a 3.5" a 4" or 4.5" or longer pistol or vice versa. g9defense.com/g9-9mm-80-gr-external-hollow-point/ (Some of the newest, hot solid copper rounds)
I think more people carry those Ruger micro pistols definately, but less folks shoot them regularly, unfortunately. They are not an easy pistol to shoot accurately, without a lot of practice for many folks. Especially smaller people and women. Its just so small and lightweight. I just got a doublestack larger frame 380 for that reason. I can shoot 100 rounds thru it easily. I sure couldn't with a LCP without being in some pain I bet. I cant slip mine in my pocket tho, either. Each has trade offs, but I want to know I am accurate when I pull mine out to shoot. Unfortunately it means I have to use a holster and its not as easy to hide, and comfy as a micro pistol. LCPs are great for carry, but not fun to shoot more than 25- 50 rounds thru. I bet in a few years many LCP folks will buy a larger pistol, to go shoot with, if they like to shoot and practice. Especially if its their only pistol.
I was thinking 380 deep hydro vs 38 special snubby. That hydo deep seemed pretty good. Going toe 2toe with plus p 38 special. I like to know how a 380 will do against a hill climb sichuation. You may have to take out a large rabid dog or racoon. Heck you may go 380 over 357 mag. But I am glad to see a 380 is keeping up with the 38 plus p. A smaller round out of a semi auto. But 380s push 9 or 10 in mags now. Vs 5 to 6 38 special. Yep them small guns may become your go-to. Other times weight might be the case. Big bulky 🔫 vs a smaller easy to carry 1. Heck 45 acp 4 inch depending on location. Or the 5 inch in grizzly territory.😅
This is why i dont trust 380 for self defense. A light bullet weight with a mid level speed just isnt good for typical barrier penetration. At least with 38/357 you can get some pretty good options with a decent bullet weight and some +p pressures that pushes them into an effective level. This kind of mentality is why i generally carry 40 cal +p with 180 grains. Good speed (almost magnum performance when you can find +p+ loads) and heavy for caliber means very good barrier penetration and it still is great for soft targets. My barbecue gun is a 3” sp101 357 loaded with some custom made 162gr loaded to +p+. They are gnarly loads. Ive actually hunted hogs with them.
I would try shooting that +P 40 cal, 180 grain, into a "soft target", (whatever that is) and make sure it doesn't pass right thru though. If it doesn't your set! If it does, its not as effective as you think. Testing data shows that huge energy doesn't always win. If you download the 2016/17 JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION you will see that 45acp actually defeated 44 magnum in tests! I know it sounds crazy right? It shows that lil old 45acp Win PDX1 230gr went 16.5" deep in gel, expanded to .640, with 404 ftlbs energy. The 44mag Rem HTP 240 gr penetrated 16.1", expanded to .630, and had 859 Ft Lbs energy! More than double the energy! But it didn't penetrate as deep, or expand as much! prnt.sc/_UIYtxojO4bY Its the massive transfer of energy, by the complete stoppage of the bullet into the target, and the huge wound channel, that does all the damage. Not to mention in todays sue happy, lawyer world, any pass thru of a bullet, lawyers tend to try to blame on the shooter, for not using the correct hollowpoint, expanding, defensive ammo. Its something to think about.
It may be best to go to a local range and take a box of each ammo you want to test, and rent the 2 pistol types to shoot on their range. (If you have one anywhere near you.) Most larger cities and towns have some. The ammo grain weight and power level means a lot, as well as the caliber. Recoil is very subjective. My dad is almost 80 and cant fire most calibers he used to.
@dugbert5 - the Shield EZ is very easy to use. I own it, and use it to help new shooters get used to recoil and manipulation. The recoil is very manageable in my humble opinion. Good grip size and angle on the EZ. Magazines load easy, and slide is easy to rack.
@@mikewithers299 So I couldn't find any locally. I took a chance and ordered one through Gallery of Guns. I'm glad they are not a lot of money 'cause I really don't like it. Is it easier to rack? Yes, but not by that much compared to my Firestorm mini 9mm. Does it recoil less than 9mm? Yes, but not significantly. It certainly doesn't feel like a .22. And for me, it's not comfortable to shoot, it bites my trigger finger. And I couldn't get the hang of the mag loader that's included. This will be the first gun I trade when I come across a nice revolver.
I would like to have seen a test with a shorter barrel. Most people who carry 380 handguns , carry lcp size guns . The 380 ez has also become popular among 380 people
Nice testing, but hopefully in the future we’ll see these two “deep” loads tested out of the 2” snub noses and Ruger LCP’s that most people actually carry.
Laminated glass really murders bullets. I don't think I would stand in front of a charging car! Although I expect the driver wouldn't appreciate being showered with glass and bullet fragments. If you were able to dodge to your right, that would give you a chance to put a round through the driver's side. That is ordinary tempered glass and won't do quite as much damage to a bullet.
it's one of those things, where it's not really meant to simulate shooting into a car as much as it is shooting out of the car. But gravity is a bitch, so letting the glass lean against that wood structure is easier than building a new arm or something, to hold it angled the other way facing me.
@@GunSam Holy perforated eardrums, Batman! As long as my car was mobile, I would use it as a weapon or means of escape. If I had to shoot out of it, especially through the windshield, I can't even imagine how much trouble I'm in. I want a belt fed machine gun! I have a sunroof.
OK Sam...............here WE go! The .38 special will always be superior to the .380. Please allow me to explain. Your windshield test was the factor here that shows energy and BULLET WEIGHT! Back in the 70,s when I was beginning to study ballistics the argument for a .380 auto went something like this "You get two extra shots, maybe three". Mind You this was in blowback autos that had function issues sometimes. The STUPID marketing idea of expanding bullets in BOTH .38 special (think snubs) and .380 was based on the idea that expanding bullets really only benefit "medium" calibers. The .22,.25 and .32 are looking ONLY to penetrate to major organs to be effective. Furthermore IF they have to pass through barriers then ball ammo (non expanding) only makes sense. Ditto for .38 special out of a snub! Expansion out of a snub is NOT desirable IF it impedes PENETRATION. (think wad cutters). So what are We left with You ask? My choice still with .380 is FLAT NOSE BALL. .38 special You ask? Again a wad cutter for penetration (You and I LOVE 3 inch barrels on Revolvers for good reason). Calibers like .40, .44 and .45 need NO expansion. "pocket calibers do not either". So this brings us back to medium bores .355 and .357. In this case bullet WEIGHT in the .38 wins because mass times velocity equals inertia. As a side note the .38 special was originally a BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE and as a result has more case capacity for smokeless powder. with modern metals a good .38 can be loaded hotter to give better results in penetration.
True! But the 38 Special cannot be loaded "hotter" unfortunately. The 38 Special has a heavier bullet is why its more effective. The 1902-1929 (early) 380 auto case has a lower max pressure than after its 1929 integration into the 1911. Since then, it was then rated at 33,000 CUP in 1929. The also early 1900s designed, 38 special revolver case, is a max of 18,000 CUP or 17,000 PSI. Later in the late 1970s the hot rodded +P 38 Special case is arrived at, with a 21,900 CUP, or 20,000 psi max rating! I don't know what the +P+ 38 Special rating or case is, Sorry. So its not the case pressure, its the bullet weight, that is the huge penetration advantage for 38 Special. Even +P 38 Special has over 1/3 less, maximum case pressure, than the 380acp. However the 130 grain bullet of the 38Special +P vs the 90 gr 380 acp is a huge percentage of weight. Also, There is good reason they manufacture Hollowpoint bullets in 40,and 45 cal. We need expanding bullets that dump ALL their energy and create large wound channels in a target, just as smaller caliber Hollowpoint rounds do. The rounds would fly right thru the target with minimal wound cavity, even in 40 or 45 otherwise. Testing data also shows that huge energy doesn't always win. prnt.sc/_UIYtxojO4bY If you download the 2016/17 JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION you will see that 45acp actually defeated 44 magnum in tests! It shows that 45acp Win PDX1 230gr went 16.5" deep in gel, expanded to .640, with 404 ftlbs energy! The 44mag Rem HTP 240 gr penetrated 16.1", expanded to .630, and had 859 Ft Lbs energy! More than double the energy! But it didnt penetrate as deep, or expand as much! Its the massive transfer of energy, by the complete stoppage of the bullet into the target, and the huge wound channel, that does all the damage. Not to mention in todays sue happy world, any pass thru of a bullet, lawyers tend to try to blame on the shooter, for not using the correct hollowpoint, expanding, defensive ammo. Its something to think about. I love solid cast lead bullets, wadcutters, etc, but they are more for target shooting these days, imho. You can make a good cast lead hollowpoint, but it is a lot of trail and error to match it to your specific gun and powder load, by adjusting lead hardness, cavity shape, and size etc. It still wont be as good as we can buy, for pretty cheap to load ourselves tho.
@@PatriotPaulUSA Thank you for taking the time and doing a much better job of replying than I could have - couldn't grasp the whole "middle caliber" needing to be HP but not .40 or above. I'm thinking if barrier-busting is what you need, FMJ in any caliber would be better. But if we're talking personal defense, I want a HP in whatever I'm using. Side note: I don't have a .380, I'm here for the .38spl content, hahaha.
.22lr is you best bet. The ammo is light, the weapon that uses it is light and can have high capacity mags. Plus, very easy to run a can on it to prevent sound attention and everyone has .22lr ammo. Since you're only doing head shots, the .22lr is the best option.
I don't waste money on that $1.00+ per-round 'defense' ammo. I load my .380s with FMJ target ammo. .380 is not a powerful round anyway, so over-penetration is much less of a worry. I'm more concerned about putting a round or two through the perp's fat and clothing to reach a vital part of his innards and quickly changing his mind about attacking me.
Yeah, But if you saw how far that 380ACP with FMJ Ball ammo can penetrate, you may think different. It goes right thru an 18 gel block like nothing. The average male torso is less than 10" front to back. In todays world, if you have to use it someday, and God forbid it over penetrates, which is more than likely, the lawyers will own you, and everything you have. They always badger the shooter about what kind of "defensive hollowpoint" ammo he used, as it is. Can you imagine, if you didn't have hollow points, and actually hit a bystander too. Just forget it, your done. I just bought a bunch of proven XTP loaded Atomic Ammo, with nickel plated brass, defensive hollow points, in 380acp that outperforms Hornady's XTP rounds for 21.99 a box of 20. (1.10 a round) www.midwayusa.com/product/1022981264?pid=899624 I also bought some Remington Ammo UMC 380 ACP 88 gr (JHP) 100 Bx for 47.99 (48 cents a round) its gone up a bit now battlehawkarmory.com/product/remington-ammunition-l380a1b-umc-380-auto-88-gr-jacketed-hollow-point-jhp-100-bx-6-cs Northwoods Testing did gel tests with Atomic Ammo in 380 here on you tube and it did very well in penetration and expansion.
I've always wondered if the mass that you are shooting thru, isn't equal on all sides, if you really see how a round truly would act ? Meaning a round striking the middle of the gel block, would have more material surrounding it, and therefore react differently, than a round fired thru a thinner slice of a gel block ? As the round traveling thru a thinner slice, obviously would not have as much mass working against it, and that being said, might alter it's course, leading to different findings ? Perhaps there is an equation that blows my theory out of the water ? Perhaps someone with a better understanding of Physics can explain ? 🤔....?
if you mean the table, believe it or not all I did was find a cheap 1/8" plywood and screw it over all the big holes in that table. After I painted it I was shocked that it wasn't bowed out anywhere and looked new.
1,2,3” all short so velocity for mushroom and power/penetration ?? Even with 5” pistols. Why smg ’S usually 7” and longer 😉 Wheelgun even that gap, before barrel😊
Never seen a .380 flat nose that wasn’t a hollow point. It’s common enough on 9mm though. Sorta gives it extra impact energy for shock value since FMJ 9mm usually just zips right through.
For recoil sensitive,this 38 could be a solution. But ...all thise is far behind terminal performance of the 357. Far behind. Rather more training,more drill to accept 357 then carry this for d-fense...
Been testing self defense loads in my Sig P365-380...so far been it's been liking the Sig V-Crowns but may need to try that Hydrashok Deep. Always enjoy your content, Sam. Have a request for a 32 snubby load to test should circumstances allow...Black Hills 90 gr .32H&R FPL Cowboy load. Been finding it fairly frequently lately, enjoy shooting it and would be very interested to see some ballistics as a low-recoil self-defense round. :)
Thanks. I don't know when I will get around to a test like that, but I am testing the Magtech .32 Long wadcutters soon VS the Magtech .38 Special wadcutters.
![[Full] 4 ต่อ 4 Celebrity EP.922 | 10 พ.ย. 67 | one31](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zmV5HRIxIBI/mqdefault.jpg)
Why are you testing plus p 38 against regular pressure 380
I am going to assume this is a legitimate question, and because I get this SAME question collectively on my my channel about 37 times a day, I am going to pin this response...... Why do I not test .380 ACP+P?? BECAUSE IT DOES NOT nor has it EVER existed. Under SAAMI spec, (you know, the official American standard for cartridges) the ONLY +P cartridges that exist, are .38 Special+P, 9x19mm+P, .38 Super+P and .45 ACP+P. That's it. You cannot test something that does not exist. You might ask, why not level the field with .38 Special standard pressure? Because Federal Hydrashok Deep ONLY COMES in a +P variant. These are the only two variants of these calibers that the Federal Hydrashok Deep comes in. Any company putting ".380 ACP+P" on their ammo or a +P on any other cartridge that is not .38 Special+P, 9x19mm+P, .38 Super+P and .45 ACP+P is lying about something.
@GunSam great test. I have the same EZ and have watched all your 380 comparisons. I'm impressed with the results. This would only be a last ditch caliber, as I have others.
@@GunSamThere’s always THAT person. You can’t make everyone happy, just ignore the haters. You’re putting out great data and real world application testing to the public in a format that’s easy to digest and learn.
I just watched 5 of your videos and they helped me narrow down the best load for me and my 2” LCR. Just know that 99% of us really appreciate all the time and effort it takes to do these tests.
@@GunSamthey do 100% make +P .380 rounds 🤣just because it isn’t SAAMI spec’d doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. That’s like saying vitamins don’t exist because they aren’t regulated by the ATF. If you do ANY .380 VS .380+P testing you’ll see that there is a difference. It’s not rocket science it’s just ammunition. I know you’re a revolver guy but come on, don’t be dense.
There is always someone.. who doesn’t know crap .. and yet they are the one that posts .. their ignorance
I believe this is the best performing 380 I’ve ever seen
I think the three inch barreled revolver should be considered more often than it is. I don't find that it harms concealability, but it does bring better ballistics. Since velocity is so important to bullet performance, the 3 inch barrel deserves serious attention when thinking about a summer heat carry gun.
Very true. My late father had a colt python with a 3 inch barrel. It hit hard with +P .38 Special and of course it was accurate.
Agreed, I have a 3 inch S&W Model 60 so always interested
My S&W 66-8 has a 2.75" barrel which is close enough. You get an extra round, bigger grip, and much nicer trigger over a J-Frame. But you really do lose pocket carry. You do need an over garment. At least I do. I can only wear it OWB. It does tuck in nicely and it's not too heavy on a proper gun belt. It's perfectly fine in cooler weather. But I would rather just pocket my M&P340. You can forget it's there.
@JJ_SDWR I have a 3 inch Pro Series Model 60 that I am very happy with. It has a superb trigger and is a fine companion riding IWB very comfortably.
@@brianmoore1164 I've simply had no luck with IWB carry. It's just too uncomfortable for me. We're all built a little differently. The model 60 pro series is quite cool though. That's magnum rated, isn't it?
Finally! A .380 round that passed the real-world test! I would love to see the .38 tested through a snub.
Cw380 2.58" barrel vs a s&w with a 1.87" barrel
Yeah the ammo was impressive enough I'd consider buying a browning 1911 in 380. I'd darn sure stick to the hydro shock most other 380 bullet test I've seen are quite inadequate.
@@NukeCult666 Burt Gummer approved!
I was pleasantly surprised at the performance of the .380 from Federal. That makes the .380 a truly viable option for self defense.
Also underwood extreme penetator 380.
@@jamesnevitt3400 I know Underwood makes some powerful ammo. I'd like to see a gel test with some of Underwood's .380 ammo.
Holy ballistic balls Batman!!!
A 380 that actually expands?!? 😱
Lots of 380 load expand. I am amazed that it expanded AND prnetrated adequately.
Critical defense, Hydra Shock deep, StarFire, golden saber, and Sig V-Crown and Gold Dot are all excellent choices in .380ACP…all expand and penetrate reliably.
The 380 did ok. That surprised me. When I carry a 380 it's likely to be a mag drop unless I get really lucky on the first shot.
A very good test. Thanks young fella.
I saw a video this week of a female clerk who shot a large male robber at about 2ft with 2 shots to center mass. He took about 3-4 slow, small, steps and dropped to the ground. Just because its a bit less power than 9mm Luger doesn't mean its not deadly. It was carried by French and Italian police back when it was invented by John Moses Browning around the turn of the century fwiw. Its really not the slouch some people make it out to be. Plus you can see the ammo /bullet tech keeps improving. A 3.5" or longer barrel is really a big help to it and I carry a economical Ruger Security 380 with that size barrel, and 2-15rnd mags. 380 is the same 9mm diameter .355" bullet and the same brass case just 3 mm shorter vs a 9mm Luger. Hopefully something I said helps folks see 380 auto is no 44 mag, but its no slouch either.
I found some 38spl non +p HydraShok from the 80's, they all performed perfectly. Better performance than what they make today but still a good HP.
Excellent comparison. Very pleasing results. It is encouraging to see 380 being successful and effective in tests. 38 is really good. Thank you.
Thank you
No one really does practical windshield tests on youtube, or I haven't seen them yet... Very interesting!
I can see why though. Its not a cheap test medium and then add up the ammo costs and you really have a nice bill. Its really good to see Gun Sam do it. Its too bad there is only 2 brand/types of handgun ammunition designed to penetrate it. hydroshok deep and critical duty.
@@PatriotPaulUSAyou can get them at the junkyards around here for basically free if you have the tool to cut them out. They don't charge you for cracked or damaged glass.
Hard to beat a good 38 special round. Thanks for a great video!
Thank you
Harder to find one.
327 would beat it just because of the higher pressure
Been wanting for this for awhile, especially the .380 deep!! 👍🏻
Good review. I like the addition of the windshield to the test. I am a fan of Critical Duty, but as stated this is good for sub 4.5" barrel's. I have been carrying Underwood Extreme Defender's in sub Duty Size gun's.
This was a very interesting test and comparison. I was impressed with the .38 Special performance - except in the 25 yard accuracy department. I’d like to guest that you’d be looking at 775-800 fps out of a two inch barrel. Shooting thru auto glass in most cases of self defense outside of law enforcement or military setting is probably not an area where the manufacturers are putting much thought, but I was surprised how the .38 still performed. I’d like to see some other HS Deep .38 Special tests. I have an old three-inch model 60 factory DAO that has always been a decent shooter. Never really carried it, however, because as a BUG, it was a little too much barrel for my mode of dress. I think the reason .380 didn’t catch on in American law enforcement was because finding reliable pistols was the challenge, not to mention .38 Special ammo in any form was cheaper. A Colt or S&W small frame was cheaper and usually always went bang. As a range instructor, I was seeing cops with department issued PPKs for undercover activities as late 2010. The guns weren’t all that reliable and were not that easy to shoot. In terms of reliability, I think the big problem was the lack of know-how at both operator and armorer levels. I can attest that for whatever reason I was never accurate with a PPK beyond 10-15 yards. But yeah, I plan on giving some attention to the HS Deep in .38 Special - see how close to POA it is out of my two and three inch revolvers.
Love your comparisons and shooting; bought an EZ 380 performance center for my wife but surprisingly It’s become among my favorites to shoot, especially after dark with hi viz night sights and performs well with less expensive Fiocchi ammo. Semper Fi🇺🇸
Wow. A .380 that penetrates and expands. You're right on the money with your analysis as always! Thanks for all the testing you do...and i really like the consistent methodology
This is what I carry in my Kimber Ultra Carry 45acp. I bought a box as soon as it came out and fell in love. It’s dead on but about a quarter inch high but it hits hard and expands perfectly. Only thing I carry now. Great ammo.
Great test. Looks like a winner 2 me!
I'd even load them in my 16in Carbine.
Thanks to you and Calamity Jane for this test. I will forward this video along to others who carry .380ACP pistols, and .38 Spl revolvers. Even though the .380ACPDeep didn't do too well against the windshield, I was still very impressed. But I'll look to buy some of that .38 Special for my own carry.
That windshield test is brutal for a small caliber like 380. Hopefully none of us will ever need it. The odds are we wont, but its good to have, I know. There are several 380 HP rounds that are great for expansion and depth, but they do not have the barrier defeating capability of Hydrashok and Critical Duty.
When I pocket carry 380 I will use ball ammo or Underwood Extreme Penetrators out of my LCP2. But since I've found IWB at 3:30 with a Clinger Holster with their comfort pad very comfortable I've been carrying my 9mm Shield Plus with its 4" ported barrel & 10 round mag with plain cheap JHP's. Much much better accuracy, dependability, & power.
Speaking of the 3 inch barrel .38 if I remember correctly- Back in the day
of Police still carrying revolvers- a Special Unit of the New York Police that
did stake outs to end robbery sprees carried pump shot guns & 3 inch .38 revolvers-
- their .38 bullets might have been 150 grain soft lead hollow points or
158 grain led semi- wadcutter/hollow point. The 3 inch barrel giving concealment
and enough bullet velocity for mushroom effect & penetration.
Thanks for the excellent demonstration and clear assessment!
The FBI also used 3" S&W revolvers with 158 gr LSWC HP in a +P "the FBI Load". I forget the revolver's model but it was similar to the 10 but 3" barrel.
@@GunSam It was the model 13 or 65 (stainless).
@@GunSamThere is a model
36..5 shot..3" heavy bbl. I've
heard
that it was popular with
sheriff's, though I'd imagine
their deputies would've carried
a larger service size.
@@GunSam#13.S&W.
In the writings by Jim Cirillo (RIP) that i have seen, he carried his primary 4" Model 10 in a shoulder holster, and his 2" on his belt. He often found himself going for his 2" because it cleared leather fast from the strong side. His ammo was a fairly soft "cup point" (hollow nosed) wadcutter handload. His partner used the same bullet style in his 45 Gold Cup for the first round hand cycled into the chamber, backed up with ball, since there was no way that wadcutter bullet style would feed (and probably still wouldn't in today's guns). They also preferred the M1 Carbine to a shotgun as it turned out (and i think this was with ball ammo)- somewhat lighter, much less recoil, and one bullet at a time rather than a spread of projectiles. That is probably a good idea in a crowded city.
So glad you got to this one. Man I think this round is perfect for both of these calibers. Makes the 380 and 38 snubby a great option now. I really think k this outshines the Critical Defense 38special.
Our Lincoln County sheriff (Billy the kid) notoriety wore a business suit and carried a .38 S&W on his waist band. He kept his badge in his dress coat so he could fling it open. When he was going to his car in the morning he shot a mountain lion that wa 15:15 s in a tree by the carport. I remember him coming to the back door and talk to my dad about the recent church bombings in the south.
Gun Sam's the best tester on TH-cam...Outside of Official 4 layer REAL GEL results for some LE loads, Gun Sam's REAL WORLD TESTS results are the best results to bet your life on.
★ Very interesting comparison. Will be looking for some of that ammo. Thank you for that.
Hydroshock deep is an excellent round. Very versatile and has fabulous expansion.
Great test Sam! Thanks as always for the education. Really appreciate your approach to ammo testing.
Haha; I was just wondering about that .38 load. I saw a vid a few days ago of a guy testing the 9mm 124 gr hydrashock deep along with speer gd's & federal hst's. He put them through denim into gel, glass & a steel plate. The hd performed the best. Thanks for a gr8 vid!
Oh, btw, i watched your vid where you put some of your .38 handloads through some frying pans & a stack of magazines. I was really impressed! Those .38's performed crazy good!
Others have said it before, but with the quality of your content you really should have a million subs. As for these rounds, I'd still like more penetration, but the consistency of the .38 Deep across the board was impressive.
Thank you. I try, I am not hip enough I think, I have no idea lol.
@@GunSamyou are perfect for the ballistics nerds like us and that counts. When it comes to accurate testing, I come here always
Outstanding performance! It is a pity I've never seen Hydra-Shok Deep in any caliber in my local stores
Only place I could find the .380 version was my local stores. But the .38 version I could not, had to get that one online.
I bought a box of .45 acp and it went with a Star I sold. The pistol was stolen from him and they were convicted of the theft. Him and his wife wouldn't tell me who stole it. It must have been an acquaintance of theirs. Probably a juvenile.
It very hard to find ammo. I gave up looking for deep in 380. Forget about the 50 pc "tactical" boxes too. I did just get a couple 50pc boxes of Hydrashok "Tactical Deep" 9mm . Its not cheap ammo, but it is one of the 2 best for defeating barriers. I don't know of any others, except Hornady's Critical Duty" that is core locked, harder lead, etc. for barrier defeating. There may be 1, I just haven't heard of any others. Sadly Federal premiums Hydrashok rounds aren't even nickel plated anymore. Niether is Hornady's Critical Series. They both have a disclaimer saying that until they can get Nickel for their platers to be able to plate their cases, they wont be including it in their premium defensive ammo. But their is no "supply chain crisis" they tell us. Rare earth minerals mainly come from China these days. They own almost 75% of the rare earth mines in the world.
@@jamesortiz5388 Sad, these days you better keep em locked up good, in a safe or hidden, with many of the young folks, unfortunately.
Just have to look online. I was looking at the ammo that is on sale on Midway USA yesterday and I noticed a handful of HST that was on sale and I saw some of the Hydrashock Deep too but I think it was .45 ACP. If you look around there, SGAmmo, AIM and some other sites eventually you will find it. I buy most of mine at local shops and gun shows but I do buy some online too mostly when I find a good sale. Every now and then I get some really good deals on Midway and AIM especially when AIM gets LE trade in ammo. Found some crazy deals at Academy and Field and Stream too. I guess F&S doesn't exist anymore think they are all Sportsman's Warehouse now but at both stores I have found really good deals randomly. Way to late now but when Walmart quit selling handgun ammo and .223/5.56, 7.62x39 I bought a lot of ammo really cheap. A whole lot of it was PDX1 for $10 or so a box.
You put alot of work into these and videography is great, both of those rounds look good .
Great video. I think it certainly showcases the capability of that ammo. I also believe the .380 actually needs the longer barrel to deliver that performance when compared to the popular 2.75” pocket carry models. That’s in part what makes it a “threshold” caliber. You can really make it work for you but you need to make sure the barrel length is correct. That takes you to a handgun size that is within a few decimal places of a 9mm but is softer shooting.
Filmed 7/13/23
I don't own a .380 at the present time , but if I did , I would surely load it with those Hydra-Shok deeps . I personally think that the .38 special is the superior cartridge when compared to the .380 . It can push heavier rounds around the same velocity , seemed to do better with the hard barrier , and ammo selection is greater . I would choose a .38 over a .380 any/every time . Love the video........well done !
With .380acp I am more concerned wit not having enough penetration, more that expansion. The .380acp ammunition that I recently switched to is:
Underwood 380 ACP 68GR. Xtreme Defender Platinum Edition Solid Monolithic Self Defense Ammunition.
Nice! I have a 3" barrel .357 Magnum Ruger SP101... +P will be kinder to your ears than the Magnums though.
Excellent test sir. Thank you
thanks for the test, Sam. I took my chrono to the range yesterday (testing 38 Super hand loads). Just for giggles, I ran 10 of the 38+P HS Deep. I got 863 average out of a S&W Model 60, 3 inch. I could blame the lower average fps on different altitude and temperature (it was frigging hot!), or I could just admit your Taurus is a better gun than my Smith. And, cue the Trolls....
Interestingly enough, I have noticed over the years with a few different Taurus revolvers that their velocity AND accuracy is often better than other brands. They make good barrels, they just need to work on their internals. If they went the route of SARUSA and used S&W's internals rather than their weird S&W/Ruger/Charter hybrid type action, they would have a much better revolver.
@@GunSam IHMO, best thing about a Taurus: no ILS, no Internal Lock System, no effing Hilary Hole. ah, but that's another topic. I wonder if you could devise a test that would PROVE to S&W that the ILS ruins accuracy or velocity or durability. Anything to convince management to stop doing that to their guns. Yeah, not your problem. Nevermind.
@@pecosjane Taurus does, at least in some of their revolvers, have a lock system. If I recall, my 605 has a Hillary Hole on the hammer itself, but the 856 does not. I don't think those locks would change anything in the action as long as they were unlocked.
Whoa! Good thing you have that plate on your downrange camera! I've never seen you hit that before!
I actually have once or twice before lol. I think I also put a hole through the camera tripod legs on a different set I had downrange before.
@@GunSam I bet that was annoying.
GS. Good video. Very interesting ammo. Thanks for sharing. Take care.
Good job On the video Sam.Know it is still tough finding exactly loads you need.Windsheild was good touch.Hope I never shoot through one.
Thanks for the video! I used to carry, and still have some of the Federal HST 130gr 38Spl +P in my inventory, however that had since been discontinued... so I'm now looking at my other 38 Spl defensive round options.
I would really liked to have seen how a .38 snubby did in this test. That Hydra Shock Deep +p seems to be right on the edge of being able to perform out of a 2" barrel.
I would love to see you put it up against Critical Defense 110 gr +p through different barrel lengths. I know the Critical Defense will expand from a snubby, seems like the HS Deep is a little iffy.
Impressive stuff 👊 Especially the 38 special!
I enjoy all of your vids!! Very useful info.
I carry both calibers. Currently using Hornady CD in both.
Like to see the same test with 3" barrel .380 and a snubby revolver. Nice work, stay safe.
Thanks for a good test, Sam. I’ll look into that Hydrashok Deep for my old PPK “bathrobe pocket gun.” Gotta maintain fire superiority with those marauding raccoons.😉
Ha ha ! I hope you don't have them dam critters. I fight them here where I live with a ton of trees and a huge lake.
@@PatriotPaulUSA yep, they can be a PITA.
Thanks for testing these rounds Sam! Looks like a viable round especially for .380 who works as an alternative to the FMJ. Very good in .38 Spl. ♠️🎩🎯🎱🇺🇲🏁🇺🇦🔱🌻🏵️💮🌸🌼🌺🏴☠️🏹
Thanks for watching!
I’ve always wanted to see 7.62x25 compared to other pistol rounds.
If one considers that shooting through a windshield from the OUTSIDE is basically a headshot, penetrating the fiberboard might be sufficient to stop the attacker. As for shooting through the windshield from the inside, the muzzle should be closer to the glass and firing for effect might take multiple shots as the first may be inneffective due to deformation & deflection.
The differences in setback of the bullets in the gel was an interesting phenomenon.
The FBI protocol calls for 2 different exact angles to the glass, when it is fired. (a compound angle basically) They also have to shoot thru 2 sheets of 20 gauge steel 3" apart to simulate a car door, a drywall wall of 2 sheets 3.5" apart, a sheet of 5/8" plywood. Shoot thru each of those, then thru a 18" airspace, then thru the clothing and gel barrier! They must achieve 12" of penetration in each test in the gel, but no more than 18". Its quite a test.
@@PatriotPaulUSA Exact angles for a test doesn't = real world performance, but it does make the test fair to the contestants(ammo mfgs.). My stating that shooting at someone through a windshield is basically attempting a headshot stands, as well that a bullet in Sam's windshield test that makes it through his fiberboard and preceeding gel might be a fight stopper on a human's noggin.
The main difference between civilian and police gunfights is that the civilian only needs to get out of the pickle jar, whereas the police are obligated to apprehend the aggressor(s).
Great test
Great Video
I personally don’t plan on jumping infront of a car moving at me at 30+ miles per hour double tapping the driver and rolling out of the way in exactly 3 seconds or less.
Note- A dead driver will not stop a car moving at you. Hitting the wind shield will not pick up a car and hurl it backwards onto its back even if you use a 45.
Cops will absolutely shoot people in cars. If the car keeps moving and runs over them they get a promotion and a paid vacation. Win win.
It will stop the next move the driver makes in their attempt to run over you. It might be just a bit better than a hope and a prayer.
That's why I cary a Glock 32c in 357Sig.
Really like that 357Sig.
At last, a well performing 380 round. I am not a 380 advocate, but a nedium size 380 can be a good choice for some with low hand strength, recoil sensitivity, etc. Guns like your M&P EZ, the Beretta 84, or the recent Briwning 1911 are fairly easy to shoot, and the longer barrels help the ballistics. The 38 did well for a medium weight bullet. Another solid choice. Good choice on the 3" revolver too. I wish more companies made 3" revolvers. The only one i have is a Rossi 720 44 Spl, which is a nice little sleeper. But that is another story. Great test
That's definitely some of the best performance 380 ammo I've seen tested to that extent. I myself would carry the 38 special.
Very interesting. Thank you.
I use 99 gr Federal HST "Micro" when I carry a .380. This appears to be better. Do you have a smaller gun you can test it in? 2-3/4" or 3" barrel? There is an awful lot people carrying Ruger LCPs and S&W M&P .380 Bodyguards out there.
3" is a good size
You get to 9" if you make 3 trips.
I still like the Hydrashock Deep Federal for 380 but it has been toned down since the great powder shortage of the last 3 yrs. Its now rated at 975FPS and was 1030 FPS before.
Great test! Would you carry a 38 in 3"? My Airweight is a joy at 1-7/8" but at 3 it'll be a 357 for me. 38 in a snub suffers if less so the same trouble as 380- either expands with short penetration or penetrates with no expansion. There are only a few loads I'd carry in a 38 snub or 380 mouse. I'd like to see the 357 snub vs 9mm 4" test with 124/125 grain into gel. Those two should be close in velocity and in ease of carry. I'm remembering some destroyed bologna.
I would carry a 3" but i'm happy with the 1 7/8" LCR in .327 Federal I carry.
@@GunSam That's a real pocket rocket. Wish Smith still made a J frame in 327.
Hey Gun Sam I seen a show I think the best round for your 38 is Barnes Tacxp either weight they come in. I seen some data on that combo I think it’s what you want, you can get it right from Barnes or Corbon DPX uses them or Buffalo Barnes from Buffalo bore
I saw those Barnes Tac XP rounds also. The solid copper rounds like G9 Defense or Underwoods LeHigh Defense Extreme series penetrate glass much better tho. I also saw that the hollowpoint style copper rounds can expand early and stop a projectile very quickly, before its gone 12" or more deep in gel. A solid copper like doesn't have that problem. It uses fluid dynamics, if you watch their commercials. With hollowpoints its all about the caliber size, the loading of them with what powder, and their bullet weight, and getting the Feet Per Second just right. Its that way in every HP bullet. I just purchased some Atomic Ammo that is loaded with Hornady's XTP bullet. It easily outperforms Hornady's Own XTP 380 ammo which is 1000FPS! Atomic Ammo 380acp is 1100FPS (+100fps more.) Hornady's is very marginal in many tests. In the gel tests I have seen, Atomics loading of the XTP bullet is much better in depth, and expansion. It has been proven, right here on U tube. Something to think about. With 380 its a huge range of barrel lengths too. That changes FPS. I have seen a 1/2" more barrel increase speeds up to 100fps. These micro pistols like Rugers LCP with a 2.75" barrel and some are even shorter. They can be especially tricky to load for. What powder works for them, may not as well in a 3.5" a 4" or 4.5" or longer pistol or vice versa. g9defense.com/g9-9mm-80-gr-external-hollow-point/ (Some of the newest, hot solid copper rounds)
The best round for 38 is the Hornady critical defense.
Sam do you think the Hydrashok Deep .380 would do ok out of an LCP with shorter barrel?
Put it through your Ruger LCP MAX, I feel like more ppl carry shorter barrels.
I think more people carry those Ruger micro pistols definately, but less folks shoot them regularly, unfortunately. They are not an easy pistol to shoot accurately, without a lot of practice for many folks. Especially smaller people and women. Its just so small and lightweight. I just got a doublestack larger frame 380 for that reason. I can shoot 100 rounds thru it easily. I sure couldn't with a LCP without being in some pain I bet. I cant slip mine in my pocket tho, either. Each has trade offs, but I want to know I am accurate when I pull mine out to shoot. Unfortunately it means I have to use a holster and its not as easy to hide, and comfy as a micro pistol. LCPs are great for carry, but not fun to shoot more than 25- 50 rounds thru. I bet in a few years many LCP folks will buy a larger pistol, to go shoot with, if they like to shoot and practice. Especially if its their only pistol.
Good test! 👍🏻
I was thinking 380 deep hydro vs 38 special snubby. That hydo deep seemed pretty good. Going toe 2toe with plus p 38 special. I like to know how a 380 will do against a hill climb sichuation. You may have to take out a large rabid dog or racoon. Heck you may go 380 over 357 mag. But I am glad to see a 380 is keeping up with the 38 plus p. A smaller round out of a semi auto. But 380s push 9 or 10 in mags now. Vs 5 to 6 38 special. Yep them small guns may become your go-to. Other times weight might be the case. Big bulky 🔫 vs a smaller easy to carry 1. Heck 45 acp 4 inch depending on location. Or the 5 inch in grizzly territory.😅
This is why i dont trust 380 for self defense. A light bullet weight with a mid level speed just isnt good for typical barrier penetration. At least with 38/357 you can get some pretty good options with a decent bullet weight and some +p pressures that pushes them into an effective level.
This kind of mentality is why i generally carry 40 cal +p with 180 grains. Good speed (almost magnum performance when you can find +p+ loads) and heavy for caliber means very good barrier penetration and it still is great for soft targets.
My barbecue gun is a 3” sp101 357 loaded with some custom made 162gr loaded to +p+. They are gnarly loads. Ive actually hunted hogs with them.
I would try shooting that +P 40 cal, 180 grain, into a "soft target", (whatever that is) and make sure it doesn't pass right thru though. If it doesn't your set! If it does, its not as effective as you think. Testing data shows that huge energy doesn't always win. If you download the 2016/17 JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION you will see that 45acp actually defeated 44 magnum in tests! I know it sounds crazy right? It shows that lil old 45acp Win PDX1 230gr went 16.5" deep in gel, expanded to .640, with 404 ftlbs energy. The 44mag Rem HTP 240 gr penetrated 16.1", expanded to .630, and had 859 Ft Lbs energy! More than double the energy! But it didn't penetrate as deep, or expand as much! prnt.sc/_UIYtxojO4bY Its the massive transfer of energy, by the complete stoppage of the bullet into the target, and the huge wound channel, that does all the damage. Not to mention in todays sue happy, lawyer world, any pass thru of a bullet, lawyers tend to try to blame on the shooter, for not using the correct hollowpoint, expanding, defensive ammo. Its something to think about.
Nice video, thanks. I'm pushing 70 with the beginnings of arthritis in my hands. How would you say the recoil compares?
It may be best to go to a local range and take a box of each ammo you want to test, and rent the 2 pistol types to shoot on their range. (If you have one anywhere near you.) Most larger cities and towns have some. The ammo grain weight and power level means a lot, as well as the caliber. Recoil is very subjective. My dad is almost 80 and cant fire most calibers he used to.
@dugbert5 - the Shield EZ is very easy to use. I own it, and use it to help new shooters get used to recoil and manipulation. The recoil is very manageable in my humble opinion. Good grip size and angle on the EZ. Magazines load easy, and slide is easy to rack.
@@mikewithers299 thanks, I looked at the S&W EZ .380. I’m trying to get my hands on a Ruger security 380 and see how it feels.
@dugbert5 good luck on your search. Try them first and see if the slide is easy, then see if you can range test them like PatriotPaul said. 🇺🇸
@@mikewithers299 So I couldn't find any locally. I took a chance and ordered one through Gallery of Guns. I'm glad they are not a lot of money 'cause I really don't like it. Is it easier to rack? Yes, but not by that much compared to my Firestorm mini 9mm. Does it recoil less than 9mm? Yes, but not significantly. It certainly doesn't feel like a .22. And for me, it's not comfortable to shoot, it bites my trigger finger. And I couldn't get the hang of the mag loader that's included. This will be the first gun I trade when I come across a nice revolver.
Hey you should test some of AAC's ammo in 357 mag 45 ACP & 9mm there all XTP bullets but they are priced right
It's not even comparable
I would like to have seen a test with a shorter barrel. Most people who carry 380 handguns , carry lcp size guns . The 380 ez has also become popular among 380 people
I carry the Ruger LCP Max and Bersa Thunder. I would only use Federal HST and Hydro Shock in the Bersa because of the longer barrel.
Yay 380 😊
Thr revolver doent jam,is always ready ,with the right rounds will be the perfect self defence weapon
Federal makes good ammo .
Nice testing, but hopefully in the future we’ll see these two “deep” loads tested out of the 2” snub noses and Ruger LCP’s that most people actually carry.
Already did that, then did this....so it's weird you said that.
@@GunSam I’ll look them up.
Thanks, and have a good one.
Both very impressive. And the bounce back only means more damage to me.
I'd go with .38 Special, that's just me.
I’ve always like hydra shock
Laminated glass really murders bullets. I don't think I would stand in front of a charging car! Although I expect the driver wouldn't appreciate being showered with glass and bullet fragments. If you were able to dodge to your right, that would give you a chance to put a round through the driver's side. That is ordinary tempered glass and won't do quite as much damage to a bullet.
it's one of those things, where it's not really meant to simulate shooting into a car as much as it is shooting out of the car. But gravity is a bitch, so letting the glass lean against that wood structure is easier than building a new arm or something, to hold it angled the other way facing me.
@@GunSam Holy perforated eardrums, Batman! As long as my car was mobile, I would use it as a weapon or means of escape. If I had to shoot out of it, especially through the windshield, I can't even imagine how much trouble I'm in.
I want a belt fed machine gun! I have a sunroof.
Could this finally be... *the*... .380 ACP??
I paid. $37 for a box of .380 Deep this morning. 😐 But it works.
OK Sam...............here WE go! The .38 special will always be superior to the .380. Please allow me to explain. Your windshield test was the factor here that shows energy and BULLET WEIGHT! Back in the 70,s when I was beginning to study ballistics the argument for a .380 auto went something like this "You get two extra shots, maybe three". Mind You this was in blowback autos that had function issues sometimes. The STUPID marketing idea of expanding bullets in BOTH .38 special (think snubs) and .380 was based on the idea that expanding bullets really only benefit "medium" calibers. The .22,.25 and .32 are looking ONLY to penetrate to major organs to be effective. Furthermore IF they have to pass through barriers then ball ammo (non expanding) only makes sense. Ditto for .38 special out of a snub! Expansion out of a snub is NOT desirable IF it impedes PENETRATION. (think wad cutters). So what are We left with You ask? My choice still with .380 is FLAT NOSE BALL. .38 special You ask? Again a wad cutter for penetration (You and I LOVE 3 inch barrels on Revolvers for good reason). Calibers like .40, .44 and .45 need NO expansion. "pocket calibers do not either". So this brings us back to medium bores .355 and .357. In this case bullet WEIGHT in the .38 wins because mass times velocity equals inertia. As a side note the .38 special was originally a BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE and as a result has more case capacity for smokeless powder. with modern metals a good .38 can be loaded hotter to give better results in penetration.
True! But the 38 Special cannot be loaded "hotter" unfortunately. The 38 Special has a heavier bullet is why its more effective. The 1902-1929 (early) 380 auto case has a lower max pressure than after its 1929 integration into the 1911. Since then, it was then rated at 33,000 CUP in 1929. The also early 1900s designed, 38 special revolver case, is a max of 18,000 CUP or 17,000 PSI. Later in the late 1970s the hot rodded +P 38 Special case is arrived at, with a 21,900 CUP, or 20,000 psi max rating! I don't know what the +P+ 38 Special rating or case is, Sorry. So its not the case pressure, its the bullet weight, that is the huge penetration advantage for 38 Special. Even +P 38 Special has over 1/3 less, maximum case pressure, than the 380acp. However the 130 grain bullet of the 38Special +P vs the 90 gr 380 acp is a huge percentage of weight. Also, There is good reason they manufacture Hollowpoint bullets in 40,and 45 cal. We need expanding bullets that dump ALL their energy and create large wound channels in a target, just as smaller caliber Hollowpoint rounds do. The rounds would fly right thru the target with minimal wound cavity, even in 40 or 45 otherwise. Testing data also shows that huge energy doesn't always win. prnt.sc/_UIYtxojO4bY If you download the 2016/17 JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION you will see that 45acp actually defeated 44 magnum in tests! It shows that 45acp Win PDX1 230gr went 16.5" deep in gel, expanded to .640, with 404 ftlbs energy! The 44mag Rem HTP 240 gr penetrated 16.1", expanded to .630, and had 859 Ft Lbs energy! More than double the energy! But it didnt penetrate as deep, or expand as much! Its the massive transfer of energy, by the complete stoppage of the bullet into the target, and the huge wound channel, that does all the damage. Not to mention in todays sue happy world, any pass thru of a bullet, lawyers tend to try to blame on the shooter, for not using the correct hollowpoint, expanding, defensive ammo. Its something to think about. I love solid cast lead bullets, wadcutters, etc, but they are more for target shooting these days, imho. You can make a good cast lead hollowpoint, but it is a lot of trail and error to match it to your specific gun and powder load, by adjusting lead hardness, cavity shape, and size etc. It still wont be as good as we can buy, for pretty cheap to load ourselves tho.
@@PatriotPaulUSA
Thank you for taking the time and doing a much better job of replying than I could have - couldn't grasp the whole "middle caliber" needing to be HP but not .40 or above. I'm thinking if barrier-busting is what you need, FMJ in any caliber would be better. But if we're talking personal defense, I want a HP in whatever I'm using.
Side note: I don't have a .380, I'm here for the .38spl content, hahaha.
You should do a presentation of the best gun and caliber for a zombie apocalypse.
I live across from a cemetery, like 50 feet away. Might be good advice lol
.22lr is you best bet. The ammo is light, the weapon that uses it is light and can have high capacity mags. Plus, very easy to run a can on it to prevent sound attention and everyone has .22lr ammo. Since you're only doing head shots, the .22lr is the best option.
Performance looks alright, but this ammo certainly isn't cheap. Perhaps I've just gotten used to buying imported ammo (PPU, S&B, and PMC Bronze).
Speed and accuracy are what matters ,not necessarily number of rounds
I don't waste money on that $1.00+ per-round 'defense' ammo. I load my .380s with FMJ target ammo. .380 is not a powerful round anyway, so over-penetration is much less of a worry. I'm more concerned about putting a round or two through the perp's fat and clothing to reach a vital part of his innards and quickly changing his mind about attacking me.
Yeah, But if you saw how far that 380ACP with FMJ Ball ammo can penetrate, you may think different. It goes right thru an 18 gel block like nothing. The average male torso is less than 10" front to back. In todays world, if you have to use it someday, and God forbid it over penetrates, which is more than likely, the lawyers will own you, and everything you have. They always badger the shooter about what kind of "defensive hollowpoint" ammo he used, as it is. Can you imagine, if you didn't have hollow points, and actually hit a bystander too. Just forget it, your done. I just bought a bunch of proven XTP loaded Atomic Ammo, with nickel plated brass, defensive hollow points, in 380acp that outperforms Hornady's XTP rounds for 21.99 a box of 20. (1.10 a round) www.midwayusa.com/product/1022981264?pid=899624 I also bought some Remington Ammo UMC 380 ACP 88 gr (JHP) 100 Bx for 47.99 (48 cents a round) its gone up a bit now battlehawkarmory.com/product/remington-ammunition-l380a1b-umc-380-auto-88-gr-jacketed-hollow-point-jhp-100-bx-6-cs Northwoods Testing did gel tests with Atomic Ammo in 380 here on you tube and it did very well in penetration and expansion.
@@PatriotPaulUSA -- When gel blocks start having bones and organs in them, then gel-penetration tests will have meaning.
If You can find it.FMJ FN.Makes a dramatic Difference.
How bout popping a few thru an LCP?
Underwood Extreme Defender (fluted) outperforms both. (By a lot).
Think I will just stay with the extreme penetrator rounds in 380. They penetrate 13 to 14 inches and have a deeper wound cavity
I've always wondered if the mass that you are shooting thru, isn't equal on all sides, if you really see how a round truly would act ?
Meaning a round striking the middle of the gel block, would have more material surrounding it, and therefore react differently, than a round fired thru a thinner slice of a gel block ?
As the round traveling thru a thinner slice, obviously would not have as much mass working against it, and that being said, might alter it's course, leading to different findings ?
Perhaps there is an equation that blows my theory out of the water ?
Perhaps someone with a better understanding of Physics can explain ?
🤔....?
A 38 plus p has far better performance and way better then a 380 for self defense.
👍😊🎯
if you meassure a 3" barrel revolver from the beginning of the cylinder to the end of the barrel you have more than 4"
Not bad results. I’m not sure what purpose they serve since cops don’t carry 380.
Fresh coat of paint? Looks good
if you mean the table, believe it or not all I did was find a cheap 1/8" plywood and screw it over all the big holes in that table. After I painted it I was shocked that it wasn't bowed out anywhere and looked new.
@@GunSam well it looks like you put some effort into it, I noticed, but I just retired and have been cleaning and painting everything in sight! Lol
1,2,3” all short so velocity for mushroom and power/penetration ?? Even with 5” pistols.
Why smg ’S usually 7” and longer 😉
Wheelgun even that gap, before barrel😊
How come most 380acp fmj is flat noise?
But most 9mm fmj is round noise,?,?
Never seen a .380 flat nose that wasn’t a hollow point. It’s common enough on 9mm though. Sorta gives it extra impact energy for shock value since FMJ 9mm usually just zips right through.
For recoil sensitive,this 38 could be a solution. But ...all thise is far behind terminal performance of the 357. Far behind.
Rather more training,more drill to accept 357 then carry this for d-fense...
RoaR
🙂👍
Been testing self defense loads in my Sig P365-380...so far been it's been liking the Sig V-Crowns but may need to try that Hydrashok Deep.
Always enjoy your content, Sam. Have a request for a 32 snubby load to test should circumstances allow...Black Hills 90 gr .32H&R FPL Cowboy load. Been finding it fairly frequently lately, enjoy shooting it and would be very interested to see some ballistics as a low-recoil self-defense round. :)
Thanks. I don't know when I will get around to a test like that, but I am testing the Magtech .32 Long wadcutters soon VS the Magtech .38 Special wadcutters.