I want to share my opinion on FMJ/ball and overpenetration. I typically get a lot of comments from two sides, with one side saying that over-penetration is not a thing because there's few documented cases of a person behind the 'bad guy' struck by a bullet. Then the other side is adamant that over-penetration is likely to happen and will kill an innocent party and put you in jail. My opinion from what I do and have seen over the years is completely different. Although I don't have evidence of this, I personally believe that the 'over-penetration' standard of no more than 18" in organic gel (clear gel is similar but off by a couple inches) is there for an entirely different reason. With all of my ballistic testing, the thing that I have seen time and time again is that bullets that penetrate to near 18" but not over that, tend to 'dump' damage. Either by hollow point expansion or by tumbling. Rounds that can easily penetrate way beyond this standard, typically leave a tiny hole with very little damage. And of course, it makes sense that a larger frontal or side bullet area tearing through, will slow down faster, not penetrate as far and cause more damage. So to me, the no more than 18" penetration (about 20" in clear gel) is still an excellent standard to judge ammo by, as if they are of decent power (not .22 LR) and have expanded or yawed and came to a stop close to 18" penetration, this is just a secondary confirmation that the test did well.
Little tip for you Sam, stop running your mouth with odd sentiments and disqualifying yourself. You’ve shown top notch demonstrations in countless videos by sticking to the “less is more” mantra.
Thanks for that info. Makes sense. Keep on speaking your mind. It's another great reason to tune into your tests. I've found all of your explanations based on both reality and testing experience.
To me, it's a bit more practical of an argument than anything. Simply put. Does one want every possible ounce of a given rounds F.P.E. dumped into a bad guy? And maybe extra artery, organ, and tissue damage via an expanded or fragmented bullet Or is one ok with losing bullet expansion, and some or most of a cartridges F.P.E, for the sake of MAYBE said bullet going deep enough and in the right direction, inside of a bad guys body, to MAYBE cause them to cease their activity? The ideal is both. Buy since we are dealing with handguns and cartridge producers more concerned with liability than practicality? We cant always get both from some of our favorite calibers that really could perform much better and cover most of the bases we would like covered, IF cartridge makers gave more of a damn.
I definitely fall into the fmj/solid/penetration-is-a-good-thing camp. There are many reasons for this but frontal damage is good but hitting the spine, creating an exit hole, or going deep with a side shot are better. Tons of documented evidence shows that would channel diameter means little. Expanding ammo's main advantage is in making nastier wounds. As much of a "pro" as that is I would rather have (the chance of) incapacitation through greater blood loss via an exit would . . . and the chance to hit the spine, and better barrier penetration, and (usually) more/better reliability in a semi-auto, etc. Hollow points do have their place but you got to have the gas to drive it. Many cartridges do not or they are borderline. Anything below 9mm in a full sized pistol falls in the category for me including many 38's. Wadcutters are a good compromise and I think your previous vids show that.
My 1974 real world experience was with my issued revolver, a Colt DS thirty-eight. It was fired on a dark parking lot so all I saw was the suspect’s muzzle flash directed at me across the hoods of our cars. My gun had to be reloaded w/a speed loader under fire and I managed four center mass hits. The other 8 rounds went into the car close to the suspect as he moved around inside his car trying to get at me. This event is why I trust a J Frame revolver over a small .380 for personal protection. Good video Sam. Really cannot recall if I shot one handed or used both hands to grip the weapon, but your mag dump represents how I fired under the stress of a real world gunfight.
I was incredibly lucky that night which had more to do with the outcome than skill. Our range training back then was bulls eye targets at various distances. We were never trained how to fight with a gun.
Apparently I was more accurate than the guy who was shooting at me, but he did put a round in another cop just as I got there. Luck was definitely on my side that night. Hope that answers your Q.
I have an LCP that is incredibly reliable and a Colt DS 2nd Issue that never seems to go out of time. I've been very lucky I know. The LCP is always in my hip pocket if I'm clothed period. Armed or not. That has a quality of its on. My Great Grandfather survived multiple gunfights with an S&W .32 Hand Ejecter. To many people fixate on the tools.
Great test, Sam! Your observation that even a non-expanded HP beats FMJ takes me back to the 1970’s, when we didn’t have good low velocity pistol HP ammo, and Col. Cooper recommended a good hard cast SWC over FMJ.
For decades I thought that at 30' it was ok to shoot the bad guy. I'd go to the range and use the smallest target and just do a semi fast mag drop. No warming up first. This was with a 180 gr .40. My goal back then was to hit the paper. At 70 years old I now practice one handed. I suck but still do it.I use the large targets that have the good spots outlined. At the moment I carry an all steel .380. I don't have confidence that 1 or 2 shots is enough so I mag drop. Thank you Edward B for the ammo and Mr Sam for the tests.
I have everything from .22Lr - .357 have carried all of them. The cal. I have carried the most is .380 like you been carrying for years started at age 17 am now 66 I live in the country so I can shoot at my leisure. I have made metal torso targets with pelvic area's and train to hit that as well as center mass feel very good about .380 being enough. PS my .380's are high capacity that also helps my confidence in .380.
I removed a troll comment that was rude and YELLING about why I would stretch a spring, and not replace it with a Wolff spring. This is why I get irritated sometimes, as I will on some days get like 35 different people trolling me with similar stupidity. It's rather funny though, as his advice would have entailed....stopping video production, going home. Ordering a new spring, waiting a week for it. Then installing new spring....and then going back out and resuming filming the video where I left off. I know some people have good intentions, but if you have advice - have more sense than that with your advice.
Also to add to that knowing how to fix your weapon on the fly without other parts is super important. I might also say it is much cheaper considering you use multiple firearms as well. Plus some folks cannot buy new goodies all the time. By you explaining you fixed your problem very simply and quickly we all benefit. Except for a few people with angst. Excellent video BTW.
Old saying, there's one in every crowd, this day and age there's alot more than one idiot in crowd. Thanks for putting out these videos, very informative.
After seeing a couple of impressive meat tests with the Fiocchi JHP’s, and testing them for reliability in my LCP, it became my EDC round when I carry my .380. Fiocchi has a winner with this one, and at less cost than the hot rod rounds that don’t always perform as well as the Fiocchi’s, it was a no-brainer. Great test Sam, thanks! 👍
Point shooting (instinctual shooting) is much more important, imo. Too many people practice with too much emphasis on pinpoint accuracy, when its much more important to hone your instinctual ability. I agree “aim small, miss small”, but you dont “aim” in an emergency situation, you instinctually react. As impressive as the fiocchi was here, i cant help but remember how varied the results have been with the brand overall. Thank you for another great video. It really does help me get to thinking about what it is that I prioritize when choosing ammo/calibers.
I like .380 and carry because it is easier to conceal and control. Maybe also because it was my 1st pistol caliber. I typically load fnfmj because no worry against larger targets or barrier penetration. Thank you Sam! Stay safe.
A well-done test and evaluation! 380 ACP has often been considered questionable for defense in the U.S., despite its long term use by police and military in Europe. Perhaps this is because we are the home of the .45 long Colt, the .45 ACP, and the 44 mag.? However, Greg Ellefritz's study of the effectiveness of multiple calibers showed that there was little real difference between .380, 38 special, 9mm, and 40 S&W. Your "real world" shooting protocol is consistent with the findings of the NYPD analyses of police-involved shootings, wherein a significant proportion of the officers could not remember whether or not they actually saw their sights when firing. A good quality medium-sized 380 semiauto, such as the Beretta 80 series, or the CZ 83, provides low recoil, rapid firing rate, and reasonable capacity, all of which contribute to an increased probability of effective hits. The caliber is not the best for police use due to many factors that are not often relevant to civilians (need for barrier penetration, requirements to actually apprehend a perpetrator, dealing with barricade situations, storming a drug house, etc.). But for most of us, in most situations, it seems to be adequate.
Being fast and accurate is exactly why .380 is my choice of calibers for carry. I'm only satisfied with my 9mm performance if I'm using a larger handgun. The problem with that is I found a gun of that size and weight sort of cumbersome to carry at times, especially in my line of work. On the other hand, a pocket .380 like the LCP Max is a nice size to carry, but way too snappy for me to shoot well. I finally found the perfect in between size with the P365-380, and I carry it more or less every day.
with my age and other things, the 380 EZ I shoot makes all the difference in my accuracy compared to the larger calibers in the past. up to 20 yards, I have become very confident I am not going to miss target with rapid fire. I was impressed with the Fiocchi ammo as I had trouble with the FMJ Fiocchi always messing up on the range so didn't even try the JHP since other brands seemed much more reliable. Now I may need to get a box and run it through my EZ to see if it will work. thanks as always for a great perspective on ammo and guns.
Yes, Thank You Sam! I just bought my 1st 380 this year, for a number of the reasons you have said. Yes I have 9mm & 45 too, but my 380 can be shot so fast and kept on target, its really something to think about in high stress situations. I know I am more accurate, and more comfortable. I shoot my 9mm pretty well but I know I can the 380 without even thinking. I Did Not buy a micro pocket pistol LCP, but chose a larger G19 size ,15+1 Ruger Security, also for because it shoots soo much better for my large size hands, The wider doublestack grip is much more comfortable too. You should check out some Atomic Ammo with Hornady's 90gr XTP's loaded in nickel plated cases, at 1100fps, if you can. I just bought a bunch because of another channels tests. Its 100FPS faster than Hornady's loading of it, and it always expanded in his testing. It comes in nice reloadeable, nickel plated cases unlike Hornady and Federal these days. Great tests and commentary, as always Gun Sam.
I think you would also really enjoy the Beretta cheetah. They have a single stack model that I think they only made for a year or so, and the more common double stack 13 rounder. They have like a 4 inch barrel, so you really get the most out of your 380 ammunition
Wife’s 380 EZ performance center is among the most fun guns to shoot at night with their hi viz sights. Shooting Fiocchi It does well compared to my twice the price Kimber K6. As always great vid and nice shooting, Sammy.Semper Fi🇺🇸
You have touched on one of the factors that almost no one considers!!!! I started shooting timed defensive drills 2 years ago. I had a 365 9mm that I just loved but in those drills it became apparent that I couldn’t shoot the gun worth a damn in those drills. I found that with a bigger gun I was much better. Due to the cost of ammo I would occasionally mix in my Taurus TX 22 and I went from bottom of the barrel horrible to rock star!!!! In talking to the range officers that told me I needed a bigger gun. I tried a Glock 26 with a pinky attachment and was able to run those drills satisfactorily but still no where near what I could do with my 22. Last January I rented a 365-380 and was completely astounded!!! I’m so close to matching the same performance that I achieved with the 22 in my timed drills. Just last week I stepped up to running a similar drill that you demonstrated with your mag dump. No problem with the 365-380 and sorta ok with the Glock. There is something to be said for being able to dump copious amounts of lead down range with a decent degree of accuracy, thank you for saying it!!!
Thank you Sam for this highly informative post on advantages of 380 ACP with spontaneous shooting and use of muscle memory. Also, appreciate the test of various types of ammos.
I love the 380 for just that reason. Easy to shoot and make hits. I quit carrying my 9mm for the 380 EZ (love that gun). Making hits is what's necessary to defeat the bad guy(s). AND I'm getting older and can handle the 380 with ease. I really like your videos!
To me it looked like the ARX did as well as the JHP in most of the tests performed, while having less recoil than the JHP. Seems like a winner to me. Price to me would be the determining factor! Great test, and always interesting.
I have .45, 9mm, 380 ACP, .22 Mag and .22LR semi-auto pistols. The most accurate is the .22LR in fast fire situations so the best compromise for me has always been 380 ACP (to get self-defense ballistics). Actually, my .45 caliber (Sig P220) with RDO is pretty good too but takes longer to get back on target.
I agree that in a situation where time is important, you dont have time too get a perfect sight picture but too go with the muscle memory and fire in the direction of the threat before the threat can fire at you. Great video and I do carry a 380EZ or a 9mm EZ.
Excellent testing Sam! Thanks to Edward B for his contributions to the channel testing with ammo types. Well done both if you and thank you both for all you! Bravo! ♠️🎩🎯🇺🇸🏹
I'll take a flat nose fmj in .380 all day over a .380 hp. The "over penetration" argument, in my opinion is overblown. Recently retired LE, In all the shootings I have responded to , I have yet to see a case of "over penetration" where an innocent party was injured or killed. Not saying it can't happen, but in a self defense situation I would rather have a round that penetrates sufficiently, especially with so many variables, such as types of clothing, size of intended target, barriers, such as "cell phones, wallets" contained in clothing, etc, etc.
I mean, a flat nose FMJ could penetrate 32" of gel easily. Most protocols would say that's not a good thing because it's not doing a lot of damage along the way.
Several years ago I bought a large supply of the old Fiocchi nickel plated Extrema's, which are loaded with the XTP 90 grain due to the old Shooting the Bull TH-cam test of .380 ammo. It has never once malfunctioned in either of my LCP's. Hopefully they wil count if the chips are down.
I suspect they still load XTPs. I would pick up a case of 1000 if I had a chance. The nickel plated 124 grain 9mm XTPs are a good balance of performance and price, but I only load them up into a duty sized gun.
@@macriggland6526 According to Fiocchi's site they are still loaded with the XTP 90 grain. I suspect it's the same as the Extrema but without the nickel case.
The whole point of these medium size 380's like the shield is for people that have low hand strength and recoil sensitivity so that ARX round looks like it could be the ideal balance for a lot of people. Great test.
This is an interesting and practical test. I have shot one handed while holding my 25lbs. range bag in my weak-hand to simulate holding back or protecting another person. The Fiocchi Training Dynamics 95 grn JHP did pretty good! Impressive.
Great performance from a Fiocci JHP?! I note that the FMJ didn't jam with either mag but the JHP did. I suspect few of us would carry a 380 of that size given all the micro 9s available. But the mousegun is easily carried in denied areas. I've been keeping a JHP in the LCP's chamber followed by FMJ although the phillips screwdriver bullets also seem to perform well and haven't jammed yet. I'd like to fire a few hundred of them before trusting their reliability. Thank you for the great testing!
★ ABSOLUTELY great test. It spoke! Will be looking for some of that ammo. I've got some of fiocci's fmj I've never ran (yet), but that hp round looks like a winner. Much appreciated, G.S., ...Thank you.
Love the results! But man, you're killing me on my choice of what weapon to buy. Been debating on buying a .380 weapon for my CCW or going with traditional 9mm micro or a .38 snubby/3 incher. Your data on the .380 and .38 special really makes me consider this caliber for self defense.
As always, intelligent considerations & realistic & honest testing! So; I saw a vid where Hornady American Gunner XTP performed excellently in some testing. Was done on Northwoods Testing channel. Now, you've really got me thinking (always a dangerous endeavor)...do I maybe see a Beretta Cheetah in my future...? Lol
I carry Underwood Extreme Defender or Black Hills Honey Badgers (Bullets made by Lehigh) in my 380. They are barrier blind when shot through denim etc. Best ammo out there…..for me anyway 👍
There are still a lot of people who think that overpenetration is no concern with 380 fmj. Funny that even those who carry .380 underestimate the round!
Yeah, I saw the same thing with how .45 ACP ball 'doesn't over-penetrate'. If I recall right, it did maybe 25-26" in gel and the 9mm ball that 'always' overpenetrates went to like 27". I am going by memory but it was something like that.
Over penetration just isn’t a concern. The world is big. People are small. Bullets are smaller. The reason over penetration makes headlines is because of a small demographic of people who like to empty an entire 30 round magazine as the conclusion of verbal disagreements. Weekend after weekend. Mid grade basic hollow points like that are alright. I suspected they would do better than the expensive stuff.
@@macriggland6526 You wrote such a nonesense! Overpenetartion has nothing to do with how big the world is neither how small a bullet or human is. Also it has nothing to with how many rounds you shoot. It can happen with just one shot. Its like you dont even know or understand what overpenetration is.
@@Gieszkanne We are talking about real world situations. If I am taking a walk at 8 o clock and somebody jumps me, and I fire one shot, and that shot goes through my attacker, through a window, and directly into a persons ear, then that’s just horrible luck, and a man’s gotta accept his fate. I’m not even sure a .380 is lethal after passing through a human and then a thin glass barrier. Missing is missing, and has nothing to do with over penetration. If I fire one shot, miss, and the attacker is spooked and runs, and that one single shot goes through the weakest point of a house and directly hits another person, than that’s just life, man. It was going to do that if it was a hollow point. If there are 2 or more people with the same skin color as me within shouting distance, I’m not even going to point my piece at the threat until he is within arms reach.
@@macriggland6526 "If there are 2 or more people with the same skin color as me within shouting distance, I’m not even going to point my piece at the threat until he is within arms reach." That is quite racist by the way. And again the concern here is not hitting and not overpenetration. If you have to shot someone you cant wait untill nobody is behind him. And yes in "real world situtaions" it did happen that somone was killed or injured by a bullet that went through someone else first. Why do you think the FBI is not just looking for underpenetration but also for overpenetration?! Ther should be a kind of carry licence like a driving licence where people like you learn some basic stuff!
The Shield EZ is almost identical to the 9mm Glock 43X in size. I have the G48 which has a longer barrel. The 9mm Norma NXD 65 grain which is very similar to the 9mm ARX lowers the recoil considerably and is my carry ammo when I have a semi auto.. The Glocks come with a 10 round mag and PSA has a flush 15 round mag that fits the 43X and 48. The 380 mouse guns with their under 3" barrels had too many ammo problems. The ARX might be the cure. I have been trying to find some 38 spl ARX locally to try but no luck.
So, just an update: I mentioned before that i saw a vid in which the hornady american gunner .380 90 gr xtp did well; as it were, just viewed another in which both that round & the crit def ftx failed to expand through 4 layers of heavy denim into gel, fired from an lcp. Seems like .380 can be a wild card. Based on your testing , which i think includes the most realistic variables, though, if (when?) I get a .380, i'd go with that fiocchi.
I know its been said before, but i totally agree you your practice in different weird positions, as well as firing without trying to get a perfect soght picture. In the real world, you probably wont have time for that, let alone will you even be thinking about it. Thats actually why I particularly like 380; the recoil is so manageable that its so much easier to throw rounds on target in a real world scenario. And like you said, the confidence i have in myself knowing i can do that is HUGE compared to my confidence with 9mm.
So the discontinued Underwood item 152 and now the +p xtp seem to be the best .380 hollowpoints. And obviously extreme defenders for barriers. But one thing I find strange is the critical defense seems to hardly, if at all, expand in gel through clothing, but it always expands for Paul Harrels meat target in at least two different videos, and Ive heard testimonies from people that they sent it through a home invaders collar bone and other areas, and they came out looking like golf balls, and he took the room temp challenge. But another strange thing with critical defense, like what you said at the beginning about non expanding hp’s, is everytime Ive seen a non expanding critical defense in the gel, it always did insane damage. Like it tumbled its butt off, but still kept straight line penetration. They seemed to always do wound channels and penetration similar to 9mm hst. Everyone still called it a fail since it didn’t expand, but Ive seen it do the exact same thing everytime, in at least 10 different videos, that I wouldn’t be to afraid to carry it if I had to.
Have you tried the Hornady "Critical Defense" .380 with the ballistic tip? Paul Harrell tried and liked it on the 'meat target'. The HP didn't clog up with cloth and expanded nicely with decent penetration, etc. However, it ain't cheap...
Interesting results on that fiocci, im going to pick a few boxes up myself now. Side note it kinda looks like s&w has you a little spoiled on rapid fire lol. I recently discovered I need to use my equinox if I try shooting 9mm fast as possible if I'm trying to get anything remotely close to matching my m&ps.
Through many years of extensive ballistics research I’ve determined that a handgun shooting at least .355 diameter projectiles moving at least 1,000 feet per second and pushing at least 200 foot pounds is the point of diminishing returns. That amount of power WILL be effective and bigger badder handgun cartridges will be only marginally more effective. With that considered, it makes perfect sense to me to pick the most comfortable gun/caliber combination above that floor. .380 is a legitimate choice along with .38 special, 9 mm, and every other faster moving .38.
Discovered your channel a couple years ago and have been a fan ever since. Thanks for your time and effort showing how guns and ammo work in real life. Regarding the over penetration producing fatal results on a second person issue - can you do a test with FMJ ammo and then move the second gel block back 12" and repeat the test to see if the "air gap" changes the depth of penetration ? Thanks for your good work.
Wow, I must say that .380 EZ really does seem to have almost no recoil. Although I would definitely say a good revolver would probably be more reliable. To me, these .380 pistols definitely don't seem to be as reliable as full size 9mms, .40's, and revolvers.
My choice in .380 is going to be the same as it is for other calibers, Hornady Critical Defense in standard pressure. FMJ has the risk of over penetration and this environment where you are so subject to being sued in civil court even if you face no legal issues over penetration can be an issue. In testing Paul Harrell did a few years ago now the Hornady round regardless of caliber or barrel length never failed to expand and never over penetrated.
Best 380 round is a 100grain .355cal v-crown loaded in a 357 mag(yes I’m aware of diameter differences but it still works) growing around 1700fps. I’m joking of course I wouldn’t trust these to penetrate well enough for self defense but it’s still a neat concept.
Thanks for some great tests. I normally use my 380 as backup to my 45. I am one of the ones who prefers to use 90, 95, or 100 grain flat-nose FMJ 380 ammo or solid core 380 ammo instead of JHP ammo because the test I have performed convinced me that the FMJ, solid core, and non-expanding JHP give me the penetration I desire. However, when the JHP that I have tried does expand, it fails to give me the penetration I desire. Based on your test results, I will have to review and analyze your tests results more thoroughly and possibly perform some additional tests of my own.
I know what you mean about shooting better when not trying so hard to aim. FEEL the gun's front sight dropping down to the rear sight window and pull the trigger early so they are timed to meet on target. It really does just work! The Hand does remember! I can't remember if you have gel-tested FLAT POINT full metal jacket .380's. I would love to see the wound track from that combo, but not target ammo, something hot for self-defense. Thanks!.........................elsullo
DUDE, you hit it right on the nose. In real life scenarios you be pumped up. You just might be having to point and shoot, without being able to aim for placement. I think thats more realistic than probably getting a stance getting both hands on the gun, because most thought process is out the door when its fight or flight. Lesser gun flip, smaller caliber not such a bad thing. Smart deduction Bud!
13.25” and .513” ?? Put this in the top 3 .380 hollowpoints with discontinued Underwood 90 gr +p jhp “item 152”, which they stopped selling them know a few months ago ;( and now the Underwood +p xtp’s are just as good. Slightly less expansion but matching wound channels and fairly deeper penetration Like item 152’s out of lcp were 0.55” and 12.5”. XTP +p’ out of the Lcp are 16” and 0.42”
If you could do a gel test with a Micro 9 like a P365 vs your Shield that would be great to see how they compare. I always read comments or hear the you tubers say "dont use hollow points in .380 because they wont expand and will act like FMJ so its better to use FMJ" But that doesnt make any sense to me. If it fully expanse then fine, if it partially expanse then it will most likely start to tumble which is great. But if it gets clogged and acts like an FMJ then how would an FMJ be a better choice?? If we're talking a windshield or car door then yeah FMJ would be better but on an unarmored soft target, I'll stick with my hollow points.
Sam, I had similar stovepipe & feed issues, typically on the last round out of the magazine with my Shield EZ. I added additional tension to the magazine spring by using the same technique in the video by J Dalton (his video is on a Hipoint C9 mag, but same concept). This solved the stovepipe/ feeding issues on my EZ. Note: this fix was ultimately for nosediving issues, so you'll only need to perform the center bends. th-cam.com/video/Ws6T-9LFsao/w-d-xo.html
My wife has a Ruger security lite 380 and the fiochi jammed like crazy. Same thing with Hornady self defense rounds. It’s been frustrating trying to find reliable ammo.
I appreciate the attempt to simulate some sort of "where my mind and body will be" in a real world situation. I try to practice shooting when I'm unprepared where I have to draw with my hands in different positions off my body or above my waist somewhere and use a timer beep as the cue to draw and fire. I know it doesn't make a perfect scenario simulator but the hope is that it helps me to remember how to grab the grip at any angle or orientation my hand has to approach from. I'll even mill about walking in circles or randomly wandering while waiting for the beep of the timer (always set to a random beep) so I can drill the motions of turning, drawing and firing into my head. That last part might've come out wrong...I try not to fire into my head whenever possible but it's not a perfect world.. Anyway, I think it's a good idea for people to consider. Practice drawing and shooting when you're completely relaxed and not prepared. You won't always be in the survival frame of mind in your life so it can't hurt to imagine yourself having to jump from zero to a hundred all at once and train accordingly. Everybody has to relax from time to time, and that just may be when the doodoo flies off the fan blades.
I want to share my opinion on FMJ/ball and overpenetration. I typically get a lot of comments from two sides, with one side saying that over-penetration is not a thing because there's few documented cases of a person behind the 'bad guy' struck by a bullet. Then the other side is adamant that over-penetration is likely to happen and will kill an innocent party and put you in jail.
My opinion from what I do and have seen over the years is completely different. Although I don't have evidence of this, I personally believe that the 'over-penetration' standard of no more than 18" in organic gel (clear gel is similar but off by a couple inches) is there for an entirely different reason. With all of my ballistic testing, the thing that I have seen time and time again is that bullets that penetrate to near 18" but not over that, tend to 'dump' damage. Either by hollow point expansion or by tumbling. Rounds that can easily penetrate way beyond this standard, typically leave a tiny hole with very little damage. And of course, it makes sense that a larger frontal or side bullet area tearing through, will slow down faster, not penetrate as far and cause more damage.
So to me, the no more than 18" penetration (about 20" in clear gel) is still an excellent standard to judge ammo by, as if they are of decent power (not .22 LR) and have expanded or yawed and came to a stop close to 18" penetration, this is just a secondary confirmation that the test did well.
Little tip for you Sam, stop running your mouth with odd sentiments and disqualifying yourself. You’ve shown top notch demonstrations in countless videos by sticking to the “less is more” mantra.
Thanks for that info. Makes sense. Keep on speaking your mind. It's another great reason to tune into your tests. I've found all of your explanations based on both reality and testing experience.
Less is more Sam!
To me, it's a bit more practical of an argument than anything.
Simply put.
Does one want every possible ounce of a given rounds F.P.E. dumped into a bad guy?
And maybe extra artery, organ, and tissue damage via an expanded or fragmented bullet
Or is one ok with losing bullet expansion, and some or most of a cartridges F.P.E, for the sake of MAYBE said bullet going deep enough and in the right direction, inside of a bad guys body, to MAYBE cause them to cease their activity?
The ideal is both.
Buy since we are dealing with handguns and cartridge producers more concerned with liability than practicality?
We cant always get both from some of our favorite calibers that really could perform much better and cover most of the bases we would like covered, IF cartridge makers gave more of a damn.
I definitely fall into the fmj/solid/penetration-is-a-good-thing camp. There are many reasons for this but frontal damage is good but hitting the spine, creating an exit hole, or going deep with a side shot are better. Tons of documented evidence shows that would channel diameter means little. Expanding ammo's main advantage is in making nastier wounds. As much of a "pro" as that is I would rather have (the chance of) incapacitation through greater blood loss via an exit would . . . and the chance to hit the spine, and better barrier penetration, and (usually) more/better reliability in a semi-auto, etc. Hollow points do have their place but you got to have the gas to drive it. Many cartridges do not or they are borderline. Anything below 9mm in a full sized pistol falls in the category for me including many 38's. Wadcutters are a good compromise and I think your previous vids show that.
My 1974 real world experience was with my issued revolver, a Colt DS thirty-eight. It was fired on a dark parking lot so all I saw was the suspect’s muzzle flash directed at me across the hoods of our cars. My gun had to be reloaded w/a speed loader under fire and I managed four center mass hits. The other 8 rounds went into the car close to the suspect as he moved around inside his car trying to get at me. This event is why I trust a J Frame revolver over a small .380 for personal protection. Good video Sam. Really cannot recall if I shot one handed or used both hands to grip the weapon, but your mag dump represents how I fired under the stress of a real world gunfight.
I was incredibly lucky that night which had more to do with the outcome than skill. Our range training back then was bulls eye targets at various distances. We were never trained how to fight with a gun.
So was it the ability to shoot more accurately? Or.. I don't understand. Thank you for your service!
Apparently I was more accurate than the guy who was shooting at me, but he did put a round in another cop just as I got there. Luck was definitely on my side that night. Hope that answers your Q.
I have an LCP that is incredibly reliable and a Colt DS 2nd Issue that never seems to go out of time. I've been very lucky I know.
The LCP is always in my hip pocket if I'm clothed period. Armed or not. That has a quality of its on.
My Great Grandfather survived multiple gunfights with an S&W .32 Hand Ejecter. To many people fixate on the tools.
@@gk5891 Tell us the story about your grandfather getting into multiple gun fights with a 32. How did that happen?
Great test, Sam! Your observation that even a non-expanded HP beats FMJ takes me back to the 1970’s, when we didn’t have good low velocity pistol HP ammo, and Col. Cooper recommended a good hard cast SWC over FMJ.
For decades I thought that at 30' it was ok to shoot the bad guy. I'd go to the range and use the smallest target and just do a semi fast mag drop. No warming up first. This was with a 180 gr .40. My goal back then was to hit the paper. At 70 years old I now practice one handed. I suck but still do it.I use the large targets that have the good spots outlined.
At the moment I carry an all steel .380. I don't have confidence that 1 or 2 shots is enough so I mag drop.
Thank you Edward B for the ammo and Mr Sam for the tests.
I have everything from .22Lr - .357 have carried all of them. The cal. I have carried the most is .380 like you been carrying for years started at age 17 am now 66 I live in the country so I can shoot at my leisure. I have made metal torso targets with pelvic area's and train to hit that as well as center mass feel very good about .380 being enough. PS my .380's are high capacity that also helps my confidence in .380.
I removed a troll comment that was rude and YELLING about why I would stretch a spring, and not replace it with a Wolff spring. This is why I get irritated sometimes, as I will on some days get like 35 different people trolling me with similar stupidity. It's rather funny though, as his advice would have entailed....stopping video production, going home. Ordering a new spring, waiting a week for it. Then installing new spring....and then going back out and resuming filming the video where I left off. I know some people have good intentions, but if you have advice - have more sense than that with your advice.
Sorry to hear the trool BS you deal with. Good course of action. You be you and be happy keep on truckin'!
Also to add to that knowing how to fix your weapon on the fly without other parts is super important. I might also say it is much cheaper considering you use multiple firearms as well. Plus some folks cannot buy new goodies all the time. By you explaining you fixed your problem very simply and quickly we all benefit. Except for a few people with angst. Excellent video BTW.
Old saying, there's one in every crowd, this day and age there's alot more than one idiot in crowd. Thanks for putting out these videos, very informative.
Good on you brother. Stay safe, stay alive.
After seeing a couple of impressive meat tests with the Fiocchi JHP’s, and testing them for reliability in my LCP, it became my EDC round when I carry my .380. Fiocchi has a winner with this one, and at less cost than the hot rod rounds that don’t always perform as well as the Fiocchi’s, it was a no-brainer. Great test Sam, thanks! 👍
Point shooting (instinctual shooting) is much more important, imo. Too many people practice with too much emphasis on pinpoint accuracy, when its much more important to hone your instinctual ability. I agree “aim small, miss small”, but you dont “aim” in an emergency situation, you instinctually react.
As impressive as the fiocchi was here, i cant help but remember how varied the results have been with the brand overall.
Thank you for another great video. It really does help me get to thinking about what it is that I prioritize when choosing ammo/calibers.
I like .380 and carry because it is easier to conceal and control. Maybe also because it was my 1st pistol caliber. I typically load fnfmj because no worry against larger targets or barrier penetration. Thank you Sam! Stay safe.
Nothing but fmj-fn for me it's W white box.👍👍
I like the way you inserted the board to show bullet diameter within the target. 👍🏻
A well-done test and evaluation!
380 ACP has often been considered questionable for defense in the U.S., despite its long term use by police and military in Europe. Perhaps this is because we are the home of the .45 long Colt, the .45 ACP, and the 44 mag.? However, Greg Ellefritz's study of the effectiveness of multiple calibers showed that there was little real difference between .380, 38 special, 9mm, and 40 S&W.
Your "real world" shooting protocol is consistent with the findings of the NYPD analyses of police-involved shootings, wherein a significant proportion of the officers could not remember whether or not they actually saw their sights when firing.
A good quality medium-sized 380 semiauto, such as the Beretta 80 series, or the CZ 83, provides low recoil, rapid firing rate, and reasonable capacity, all of which contribute to an increased probability of effective hits. The caliber is not the best for police use due to many factors that are not often relevant to civilians (need for barrier penetration, requirements to actually apprehend a perpetrator, dealing with barricade situations, storming a drug house, etc.). But for most of us, in most situations, it seems to be adequate.
Being fast and accurate is exactly why .380 is my choice of calibers for carry. I'm only satisfied with my 9mm performance if I'm using a larger handgun. The problem with that is I found a gun of that size and weight sort of cumbersome to carry at times, especially in my line of work. On the other hand, a pocket .380 like the LCP Max is a nice size to carry, but way too snappy for me to shoot well. I finally found the perfect in between size with the P365-380, and I carry it more or less every day.
with my age and other things, the 380 EZ I shoot makes all the difference in my accuracy compared to the larger calibers in the past. up to 20 yards, I have become very confident I am not going to miss target with rapid fire. I was impressed with the Fiocchi ammo as I had trouble with the FMJ Fiocchi always messing up on the range so didn't even try the JHP since other brands seemed much more reliable. Now I may need to get a box and run it through my EZ to see if it will work. thanks as always for a great perspective on ammo and guns.
Yes, Thank You Sam! I just bought my 1st 380 this year, for a number of the reasons you have said. Yes I have 9mm & 45 too, but my 380 can be shot so fast and kept on target, its really something to think about in high stress situations. I know I am more accurate, and more comfortable. I shoot my 9mm pretty well but I know I can the 380 without even thinking. I Did Not buy a micro pocket pistol LCP, but chose a larger G19 size ,15+1 Ruger Security, also for because it shoots soo much better for my large size hands, The wider doublestack grip is much more comfortable too. You should check out some Atomic Ammo with Hornady's 90gr XTP's loaded in nickel plated cases, at 1100fps, if you can. I just bought a bunch because of another channels tests. Its 100FPS faster than Hornady's loading of it, and it always expanded in his testing. It comes in nice reloadeable, nickel plated cases unlike Hornady and Federal these days. Great tests and commentary, as always Gun Sam.
I think you would also really enjoy the Beretta cheetah. They have a single stack model that I think they only made for a year or so, and the more common double stack 13 rounder. They have like a 4 inch barrel, so you really get the most out of your 380 ammunition
Yet again, another informative, no-nonsense video with great walk away information for me. Thanks.
Wife’s 380 EZ performance center is among the most fun guns to shoot at night with their hi viz sights. Shooting Fiocchi It does well compared to my twice the price Kimber K6. As always great vid and nice shooting, Sammy.Semper Fi🇺🇸
You make a great point in a real world situation you dont rhink about sights or any thing else
You have touched on one of the factors that almost no one considers!!!! I started shooting timed defensive drills 2 years ago. I had a 365 9mm that I just loved but in those drills it became apparent that I couldn’t shoot the gun worth a damn in those drills. I found that with a bigger gun I was much better. Due to the cost of ammo I would occasionally mix in my Taurus TX 22 and I went from bottom of the barrel horrible to rock star!!!! In talking to the range officers that told me I needed a bigger gun. I tried a Glock 26 with a pinky attachment and was able to run those drills satisfactorily but still no where near what I could do with my 22. Last January I rented a 365-380 and was completely astounded!!! I’m so close to matching the same performance that I achieved with the 22 in my timed drills. Just last week I stepped up to running a similar drill that you demonstrated with your mag dump. No problem with the 365-380 and sorta ok with the Glock. There is something to be said for being able to dump copious amounts of lead down range with a decent degree of accuracy, thank you for saying it!!!
I had a similar experience with the 365XL 9mm vs the 365-380. As somebody on TH-cam said (shooting the 365-380), "It is fun to go fast."
Thank you Sam. I sometimes carry a 380 due to what I'm wearing. I'm going to watch for some of the Fiocchi to have on hand.
Thank you Sam for this highly informative post on advantages of 380 ACP with spontaneous shooting and use of muscle memory. Also, appreciate the test of various types of ammos.
I love the 380 for just that reason. Easy to shoot and make hits. I quit carrying my 9mm for the 380 EZ (love that gun). Making hits is what's necessary to defeat the bad guy(s). AND I'm getting older and can handle the 380 with ease. I really like your videos!
To me it looked like the ARX did as well as the JHP in most of the tests performed, while having less recoil than the JHP. Seems like a winner to me. Price to me would be the determining factor! Great test, and always interesting.
I love the 380. Thanks for the review/demo.
This really rekindles my thoughts on how much i wonder about flat point bullets over fmj.
I carry flat nose fmj in my 380, with 2 backup mags and another gun 😂
Excellent video, love you Gun Sam.
I have .45, 9mm, 380 ACP, .22 Mag and .22LR semi-auto pistols.
The most accurate is the .22LR in fast fire situations so the best compromise for me has always been 380 ACP (to get self-defense ballistics).
Actually, my .45 caliber (Sig P220) with RDO is pretty good too but takes longer to get back on target.
I agree that in a situation where time is important, you dont have time too get a perfect sight picture but too go with the muscle memory and fire in the direction of the threat before the threat can fire at you.
Great video and I do carry a 380EZ or a 9mm EZ.
Love the 4 or 5 shot dump exercise.
Excellent testing Sam! Thanks to Edward B for his contributions to the channel testing with ammo types. Well done both if you and thank you both for all you! Bravo! ♠️🎩🎯🇺🇸🏹
Really helps me to better know what ammo to use in my 380's thanks.
Very impressive tests. I might re-consider the .380 ammo. Well done Sam!!
👍😊🎯 it’s manageable.
I'll take a flat nose fmj in .380 all day over a .380 hp. The "over penetration" argument, in my opinion is overblown. Recently retired LE, In all the shootings I have responded to , I have yet to see a case of "over penetration" where an innocent party was injured or killed. Not saying it can't happen, but in a self defense situation I would rather have a round that penetrates sufficiently, especially with so many variables, such as types of clothing, size of intended target, barriers, such as "cell phones, wallets" contained in clothing, etc, etc.
I mean, a flat nose FMJ could penetrate 32" of gel easily. Most protocols would say that's not a good thing because it's not doing a lot of damage along the way.
Several years ago I bought a large supply of the old Fiocchi nickel plated Extrema's, which are loaded with the XTP 90 grain due to the old Shooting the Bull TH-cam test of .380 ammo. It has never once malfunctioned in either of my LCP's. Hopefully they wil count if the chips are down.
I suspect they still load XTPs. I would pick up a case of 1000 if I had a chance. The nickel plated 124 grain 9mm XTPs are a good balance of performance and price, but I only load them up into a duty sized gun.
@@macriggland6526 According to Fiocchi's site they are still loaded with the XTP 90 grain. I suspect it's the same as the Extrema but without the nickel case.
I have a RIA .380, but I have a Star BM too. Both are secondary to my Smith M10.
The whole point of these medium size 380's like the shield is for people that have low hand strength and recoil sensitivity so that ARX round looks like it could be the ideal balance for a lot of people. Great test.
I will always take fmj over hollow point the more penetration the better
Almost talking myself into getting rid of my 9mm edc and moving to .380
Ol’ John Browning knew what he was doing, when he designed the 380.
Gun Sam and the
Real World!!!!!!!!!
This is an interesting and practical test. I have shot one handed while holding my 25lbs. range bag in my weak-hand to simulate holding back or protecting another person. The Fiocchi Training Dynamics 95 grn JHP did pretty good! Impressive.
Great performance from a Fiocci JHP?! I note that the FMJ didn't jam with either mag but the JHP did. I suspect few of us would carry a 380 of that size given all the micro 9s available. But the mousegun is easily carried in denied areas. I've been keeping a JHP in the LCP's chamber followed by FMJ although the phillips screwdriver bullets also seem to perform well and haven't jammed yet. I'd like to fire a few hundred of them before trusting their reliability. Thank you for the great testing!
I used FMJ in one magazine and JHP in the other. When I messed with the magazine, I never got another jam.
Very good information, details, demo & perspective. Thanks a bundle.
👍 would like to see a flat nose 380 tested. Winchester white box.
Well done! I appreciated your thinking and approach. The .380 ACP round may be the most well rounded cartridge for personal defense.
★ ABSOLUTELY great test. It spoke! Will be looking for some of that ammo. I've got some of fiocci's fmj I've never ran (yet), but that hp round looks like a winner.
Much appreciated, G.S., ...Thank you.
Filed 7/7/23
Love the results! But man, you're killing me on my choice of what weapon to buy. Been debating on buying a .380 weapon for my CCW or going with traditional 9mm micro or a .38 snubby/3 incher. Your data on the .380 and .38 special really makes me consider this caliber for self defense.
LCP Max Love mine
As always, intelligent considerations & realistic & honest testing!
So; I saw a vid where Hornady American Gunner XTP performed excellently in some testing. Was done on Northwoods Testing channel.
Now, you've really got me thinking (always a dangerous endeavor)...do I maybe see a Beretta Cheetah in my future...? Lol
Excellent testing parameters
I would like to see if the 90 grain JHP would expand in the 2.5-inch barrel.
Debate for me ended after shooting the Glock 43X....the perfect carry gun...no snap.... great GRIP.
GS. Good video. Another look at some interesting ammo. Thanks for sharing and take care.
I carry Underwood Extreme Defender or Black Hills Honey Badgers (Bullets made by Lehigh) in my 380. They are barrier blind when shot through denim etc. Best ammo out there…..for me anyway 👍
Yes, good stuff! -Gunny T sends
There are still a lot of people who think that overpenetration is no concern with 380 fmj. Funny that even those who carry .380 underestimate the round!
Yeah, I saw the same thing with how .45 ACP ball 'doesn't over-penetrate'. If I recall right, it did maybe 25-26" in gel and the 9mm ball that 'always' overpenetrates went to like 27". I am going by memory but it was something like that.
Over penetration just isn’t a concern. The world is big. People are small. Bullets are smaller. The reason over penetration makes headlines is because of a small demographic of people who like to empty an entire 30 round magazine as the conclusion of verbal disagreements. Weekend after weekend.
Mid grade basic hollow points like that are alright. I suspected they would do better than the expensive stuff.
@@macriggland6526 You wrote such a nonesense! Overpenetartion has nothing to do with how big the world is neither how small a bullet or human is. Also it has nothing to with how many rounds you shoot. It can happen with just one shot. Its like you dont even know or understand what overpenetration is.
@@Gieszkanne We are talking about real world situations. If I am taking a walk at 8 o clock and somebody jumps me, and I fire one shot, and that shot goes through my attacker, through a window, and directly into a persons ear, then that’s just horrible luck, and a man’s gotta accept his fate. I’m not even sure a .380 is lethal after passing through a human and then a thin glass barrier.
Missing is missing, and has nothing to do with over penetration.
If I fire one shot, miss, and the attacker is spooked and runs, and that one single shot goes through the weakest point of a house and directly hits another person, than that’s just life, man. It was going to do that if it was a hollow point.
If there are 2 or more people with the same skin color as me within shouting distance, I’m not even going to point my piece at the threat until he is within arms reach.
@@macriggland6526 "If there are 2 or more people with the same skin color as me within shouting distance, I’m not even going to point my piece at the threat until he is within arms reach." That is quite racist by the way. And again the concern here is not hitting and not overpenetration. If you have to shot someone you cant wait untill nobody is behind him. And yes in "real world situtaions" it did happen that somone was killed or injured by a bullet that went through someone else first. Why do you think the FBI is not just looking for underpenetration but also for overpenetration?! Ther should be a kind of carry licence like a driving licence where people like you learn some basic stuff!
Something like a Smith & Wesson easy shield 380 may also be better for people who can't handle the recoil of 9 mm.. and believe me there are some
The military went to flat nose Fmj , but I have never seen them for civilian use.
Precision One makes a .380 using XTP bullets that aces the FBI protocols.
The Shield EZ is almost identical to the 9mm Glock 43X in size. I have the G48 which has a longer barrel. The 9mm Norma NXD 65 grain which is very similar to the 9mm ARX lowers the recoil considerably and is my carry ammo when I have a semi auto.. The Glocks come with a 10 round mag and PSA has a flush 15 round mag that fits the 43X and 48. The 380 mouse guns with their under 3" barrels had too many ammo problems. The ARX might be the cure. I have been trying to find some 38 spl ARX locally to try but no luck.
So, just an update: I mentioned before that i saw a vid in which the hornady american gunner .380 90 gr xtp did well; as it were, just viewed another in which both that round & the crit def ftx failed to expand through 4 layers of heavy denim into gel, fired from an lcp. Seems like .380 can be a wild card. Based on your testing , which i think includes the most realistic variables, though, if (when?) I get a .380, i'd go with that fiocchi.
Very interesting! Thanks Sam!
I know its been said before, but i totally agree you your practice in different weird positions, as well as firing without trying to get a perfect soght picture. In the real world, you probably wont have time for that, let alone will you even be thinking about it. Thats actually why I particularly like 380; the recoil is so manageable that its so much easier to throw rounds on target in a real world scenario. And like you said, the confidence i have in myself knowing i can do that is HUGE compared to my confidence with 9mm.
So the discontinued Underwood item 152 and now the +p xtp seem to be the best .380 hollowpoints. And obviously extreme defenders for barriers. But one thing I find strange is the critical defense seems to hardly, if at all, expand in gel through clothing, but it always expands for Paul Harrels meat target in at least two different videos, and Ive heard testimonies from people that they sent it through a home invaders collar bone and other areas, and they came out looking like golf balls, and he took the room temp challenge.
But another strange thing with critical defense, like what you said at the beginning about non expanding hp’s, is everytime Ive seen a non expanding critical defense in the gel, it always did insane damage. Like it tumbled its butt off, but still kept straight line penetration. They seemed to always do wound channels and penetration similar to 9mm hst. Everyone still called it a fail since it didn’t expand, but Ive seen it do the exact same thing everytime, in at least 10 different videos, that I wouldn’t be to afraid to carry it if I had to.
Have you tried the Hornady "Critical Defense" .380 with the ballistic tip? Paul Harrell tried and liked it on the 'meat target'. The HP didn't clog up with cloth and expanded nicely with decent penetration, etc. However, it ain't cheap...
Your videos are very good real world good info. Thanks
Another awesome review and video Sam!
Thank you
Interesting results on that fiocci, im going to pick a few boxes up myself now. Side note it kinda looks like s&w has you a little spoiled on rapid fire lol. I recently discovered I need to use my equinox if I try shooting 9mm fast as possible if I'm trying to get anything remotely close to matching my m&ps.
Another great video, thanks
Through many years of extensive ballistics research I’ve determined that a handgun shooting at least .355 diameter projectiles moving at least 1,000 feet per second and pushing at least 200 foot pounds is the point of diminishing returns. That amount of power WILL be effective and bigger badder handgun cartridges will be only marginally more effective. With that considered, it makes perfect sense to me to pick the most comfortable gun/caliber combination above that floor. .380 is a legitimate choice along with .38 special, 9 mm, and every other faster moving .38.
Underwood extreme defender+p in 380 paired with my bersa thunder edc. Perfect match.
I enjoyed this test.
Great video. Thanks
great video Sam
Wolff gunsprings makes extra power magazine springs for the EZ now
I wish you would have fired the fiochi hallow point into the gel with the short Ruger to see if it expanded.
Now that you know how to plug a HP, test it by poring some wax in the cavity, to see if the prevents plugging.
GS u can shoot better than most!.. U n Hickock would almost be a good 1,but u know the 45!!!! Almost P.H!!!
I have the 380 EZ too and of 4 mags I got one that will stove pipe pretty much every time
Discovered your channel a couple years ago and have been a fan ever since. Thanks for your time and effort showing how guns and ammo work in real life. Regarding the over penetration producing fatal results on a second person issue - can you do a test with FMJ ammo and then move the second gel block back 12" and repeat the test to see if the "air gap" changes the depth of penetration ? Thanks for your good work.
I did this before th-cam.com/video/c7QVhjPsRFs/w-d-xo.html
this one was better th-cam.com/video/TUcsa5xbhz4/w-d-xo.html
Hi, my friend.❤❤
I shoot the plate 2 weeks ago by Hornedy's critical defense halo point,
Wasn't effective,
So I love bigger caliber.
Now Fiocci vs Hornady Critical Defense. Good vídeo!!
This might be why European cops used 32 acp for so long , besides lighter guns.
Often wondered where to keep my gun handy when in the suv.
Wow, I must say that .380 EZ really does seem to have almost no recoil. Although I would definitely say a good revolver would probably be more reliable. To me, these .380 pistols definitely don't seem to be as reliable as full size 9mms, .40's, and revolvers.
My choice in .380 is going to be the same as it is for other calibers, Hornady Critical Defense in standard pressure. FMJ has the risk of over penetration and this environment where you are so subject to being sued in civil court even if you face no legal issues over penetration can be an issue. In testing Paul Harrell did a few years ago now the Hornady round regardless of caliber or barrel length never failed to expand and never over penetrated.
I'd rather date a 10mm
Águila ammunition 95 grain it’s around 1050 feet per second
Yeah, "ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding" is better than "ding ding pow pow ding pow ding pow"
Best 380 round is a 100grain .355cal v-crown loaded in a 357 mag(yes I’m aware of diameter differences but it still works) growing around 1700fps.
I’m joking of course I wouldn’t trust these to penetrate well enough for self defense but it’s still a neat concept.
6:32 did you not notice it when you were loading the mag or did it tear the case as the gun tried to chamber the round?
no
Thanks for some great tests.
I normally use my 380 as backup to my 45.
I am one of the ones who prefers to use 90, 95, or 100 grain flat-nose FMJ 380 ammo or solid core 380 ammo instead of JHP ammo because the test I have performed convinced me that the FMJ, solid core, and non-expanding JHP give me the penetration I desire. However, when the JHP that I have tried does expand, it fails to give me the penetration I desire. Based on your test results, I will have to review and analyze your tests results more thoroughly and possibly perform some additional tests of my own.
I know what you mean about shooting better when not trying so hard to aim. FEEL the gun's front sight dropping down to the rear sight window and pull the trigger early so they are timed to meet on target. It really does just work! The Hand does remember!
I can't remember if you have gel-tested FLAT POINT full metal jacket .380's. I would love to see the wound track from that combo, but not target ammo, something hot for self-defense. Thanks!.........................elsullo
DUDE, you hit it right on the nose. In real life scenarios you be pumped up. You just might be having to point and shoot, without being able to aim for placement. I think thats more realistic than probably getting a stance getting both hands on the gun, because most thought process is out the door when its fight or flight. Lesser gun flip, smaller caliber not such a bad thing. Smart deduction Bud!
guess the fiocchi ammo gets to go on the good shit list, nice surprise
13.25” and .513” ?? Put this in the top 3 .380 hollowpoints with discontinued Underwood 90 gr +p jhp “item 152”, which they stopped selling them know a few months ago ;( and now the Underwood +p xtp’s are just as good. Slightly less expansion but matching wound channels and fairly deeper penetration
Like item 152’s out of lcp were 0.55” and 12.5”. XTP +p’ out of the Lcp are 16” and 0.42”
If you could do a gel test with a Micro 9 like a P365 vs your Shield that would be great to see how they compare. I always read comments or hear the you tubers say "dont use hollow points in .380 because they wont expand and will act like FMJ so its better to use FMJ" But that doesnt make any sense to me. If it fully expanse then fine, if it partially expanse then it will most likely start to tumble which is great. But if it gets clogged and acts like an FMJ then how would an FMJ be a better choice?? If we're talking a windshield or car door then yeah FMJ would be better but on an unarmored soft target, I'll stick with my hollow points.
A clogged hollow point does not in any way shape or form act like an FMJ though.
@@GunSam thanks! After I watched this video, I watched the video you did with the.40 proving that point
Pretty much the same velocity of a 147 grain standard pressure 9mm....
Sam, I had similar stovepipe & feed issues, typically on the last round out of the magazine with my Shield EZ. I added additional tension to the magazine spring by using the same technique in the video by J Dalton (his video is on a Hipoint C9 mag, but same concept). This solved the stovepipe/ feeding issues on my EZ. Note: this fix was ultimately for nosediving issues, so you'll only need to perform the center bends.
th-cam.com/video/Ws6T-9LFsao/w-d-xo.html
Have you heard of Defiant Munitions ? They have a solid copper .380.
Kind of expensive.
The tests I have seen, you do get expansion .
No, I don't think so.
@@GunSam how would someone donate for a test ?
My wife has a Ruger security lite 380 and the fiochi jammed like crazy. Same thing with Hornady self defense rounds. It’s been frustrating trying to find reliable ammo.
I appreciate the attempt to simulate some sort of "where my mind and body will be" in a real world situation.
I try to practice shooting when I'm unprepared where I have to draw with my hands in different positions off my body or above my waist somewhere and use a timer beep as the cue to draw and fire. I know it doesn't make a perfect scenario simulator but the hope is that it helps me to remember how to grab the grip at any angle or orientation my hand has to approach from.
I'll even mill about walking in circles or randomly wandering while waiting for the beep of the timer (always set to a random beep) so I can drill the motions of turning, drawing and firing into my head.
That last part might've come out wrong...I try not to fire into my head whenever possible but it's not a perfect world..
Anyway, I think it's a good idea for people to consider. Practice drawing and shooting when you're completely relaxed and not prepared. You won't always be in the survival frame of mind in your life so it can't hurt to imagine yourself having to jump from zero to a hundred all at once and train accordingly. Everybody has to relax from time to time, and that just may be when the doodoo flies off the fan blades.